 Right, thank you. Well, firstly, thank you for your time and my apologies for it being so late, but it's been a very busy day and I wanted to be as prepared as I could and I also wanted to see if we could publicly release retired Deputy Commissioner Reiner's report before we started this media conference and in fact we've been able to do that and it has now been publicly released. I'll just have a short statement and I'll take any questions you have. The Queensland Police Service notes the media released today in relation to the CMC, Palm Island Decision. The Queensland Police Service also received associated correspondence from the CMC today. The Police Service believes that the decision not to prosecute any of the six officers referred to in the CMC report of June 2010 is the correct decision. The Police Service has held a consistent view on the appropriate action to take in this matter since first providing its report to the CMC in November 2008. We are keenly conscious of the public interest in and the very strong feelings about this matter, however decisions have to be based on evidence rather than emotion. It's worth noting that the CMC had the option of charging some of the officers criminally or with official misconduct and has chosen not to do so. Presumably that is because there is not the evidence to support those charges. The Police Service, as I've indicated, has released now publicly the report and findings of retired Deputy Commissioner Kathy Reinders. This matter has now spent eight calendar years, well over six years in total and over eight calendar years. It sadly started in November 2004. It's my view that it's a tragedy for all involved and it is time to bring it to a close and I hope that today's developments will assist in doing that. Thank you and I'm happy to take any questions you have. Presumably the Premier is far from happy. She says that if you want the current review that's underway to come up with a faster, more transparent discipline in place. If you would agree with that wouldn't you? Yes. Because this has been too long and has left everyone with red faces. Yeah but I don't think that the current review that the Premier announced last week of the Discipline System was based solely and entirely on Kapama Island matter. The CMC have produced a report in relation to the Discipline System that was released last year. As you know we've had a CMC, previously the CJC now in effect for 20 years so they're very much part of that process. Our Discipline System, our Police Discipline System is not perfect but it's not as bad as some people say it is. It's certainly not in my view broken but there's always room for improvement and there's clearly room for improvement with the Police Discipline System. It's not for me to comment on the Premier's... I'm sorry. Yeah I'm sorry do you mean the Premier is annoyed about the time this matter is taken? Yeah I fully appreciate the Premier's view in that regard. I also think it's been far too long and as I just said I think it's time to bring it to a close and move on. I'm big about it. The Police Service. I don't think anyone wins out of this at all. No one. There's no winners in any of this it's a tragedy for all concerned and I think as well that there are some people and perhaps understandably so who will never believe that justice has been done and who will never be satisfied but I don't think we can change that and I do believe we have to bring this to a close and move forward. A criticism of this process is that nothing has been done except bureaucratic chewing and throwing between the CMC and the Police Service. Is that an acceptable way to close the case and does that have any impact on your relationship with the Police? Well certainly there has been chewing and throwing between the Police Service and the CMC over this issue. An independent or you will form your own views as to how long people had things and whether that was a reasonable amount of time in the circumstances. I don't quite agree that nothing has happened. What has happened and whilst there's agree of unhappiness about that is it would seem to me that what has happened is that the view that the Police Service expressed back in November 2008 will now proceed in the matter will then be finalised. What's in the report for the cabinet members that you just released about now? Well it's a significant report. I would encourage people to read it and form their own views but I would particularly encourage people to read it. If people don't have time to read the whole report then they should at least read the first chapter of it. The determinations of retired Deputy Commissioner Reinders was that of the six officers named in the CMC report where the view of the CMC expressed at that time in June 2010 was that they should or potentially could be charged with official misconduct. Former Deputy Commissioner Reinders view was that that was not the case and that the appropriate course of action was that three of those six officers received managerial guidance and that no action, excuse me, no action would be taken in respect of two of them. I might add that one of the officers has since retired from the service on medical grounds so managerial guidance is not an option in that regard. What does that mean? It means just what the words say. It means that the officers involved took a course of action that wasn't appropriate and that the way to address that is through senior management giving them guidance and advice on what they should have done rather than what they did. Commissioner, will any of those officers be demoted at all? No. Commissioner, do coroners call the investigation biased and said that there was collusion and how can they say that there was no presence coming up? Okay, I'm not particularly aware of the detail of what both coroners said but certainly both coroners were critical. That's being considered as well. That's being considered by the CMC and the CMC and I think they made the right decision here, have decided that in relation to some of those specific criticisms by both coroners and particularly by Corinna Hine and the second inquest that there is insufficient evidence to prosecute the officers. Commissioner, is there a stodging responsibility here by releasing an unappreciated report at this week and date and date? I'm just looking it up on my phone now. It's 400 pages long. We're not going to get an opportunity to question you about this. What do you have to say to that? I've got several things to say in response to that. That's a very fair question. I'll give you a very fair answer. Firstly, Kathy Rhonders' report was delivered to the CMC on the 23rd of December last year. Soon after that the CMC issued me with a direction that I was not to discuss the content or findings with anyone at all and nor was I to release the report. That was a lawful direction in the view of the CMC given to me, so that's why the report could not be released. Today the CMC have rescinded that direction and today I'm able to release the report and today we are releasing the report. How would you describe the CMC's reaction to this report today and the remote comment that it's made? Look, it's really important that we have a CMC in Queensland that's a well-established entity now in the Queensland landscape and I totally support the existence of a body such as A or the CMC and it's important that the CMC and the Police Department for that matter other agencies work in a professional way with the CMC. Having said that there will be points of difference from time to time. That's unavoidable and in a democracy that's probably healthy. There's probably been no greater area of angst and emotion than this matter and it's been there for a long time and as I said it's time to move on. I don't want to today sit here and be critical of the CMC. I want to make my comments to be objective and balanced and reasonable. The only thing I would say though in respect of that is that I do think that it's a little bit unreasonable to say that if you can just bear with me while I just refer to the particular passage that it's astounding that we've found that there's not a necessity or it's not appropriate to charge the officers with misconduct. We had that view when we completed our report and gave it to the CMC in November 2008 and our view has not shifted substantially at all since that time. Before we gave the CMC our report in November 2008 we gave it to a very experienced senior council who we understand agreed with the views in that report. So our position on this has been steady for some considerable time. Yes and you're quite right in my view. I share that view and regrettably with these things there I mean there have been decisions of the High Court of Australia, the four component of the High Court of Australia with seven judges where it's been a four three split where four judges have said one thing and three have said the other and of course it goes on a majority view. This matter I think in the recent history in Queensland has probably demonstrated that the greatest mix of views that you could possibly imagine. I mean you might well recall that way back, way back with this in relation to Hurley the director of public prosecutions said that there would be no prosecution action against Chris Hurley because it was a terrible accident and you might recall also that the CMC at the time agreed with that decision not to prosecute Hurley. Now that went to Sir Lawrence Street for a second opinion and his view was that Hurley should be prosecuted and he was. So as you go back through the history of this you will find that there has just been a mix of views by people who are well qualified and well credentialed and it's a fact I think that people can look at a set of facts and come to different opinions on that set of facts. What value is there in having the CMC to oversee the police if the police are able to exonerate themselves? The CMC is an essential part of the Queensland landscape. This is only one case. I think it's relevant Sir to your question that the CMC have decided the CMC in my view have the power to charge these officers excuse me with official misconduct. They have chosen not to do that. That's their decision. So it's with respect to your question and I say this absolutely respectfully I don't think it's appropriate to imply that the CMC are a toothless tiger and do nothing. They can take action if they so chose. They have chosen not to take that action. There is no legal loophole in my view. None whatsoever. The CMC could have as they said back in June last year charged the six officers with official misconduct. They have chosen not to do that. There is no legal loophole. I'm not a lawyer but there is no legal loophole in my view that prevents them taking that course of action. There is the disciplinary process like any legal process is not a simple process. It's a complex process. What they're talking about as I understand it is the fact that if the police department had chosen to charge the officers with misconduct that the CMC could have appealed the ultimate determination of that misconduct hearing. We have never said that we believe the officers should be charged with misconduct. We have consistently held the view that the appropriate course of action in this matter was managerial guidance. Well I don't believe that it's appropriate or necessary that I should stand down. I understand the angst that people have. That's not the first time that that claim has been made. What I want to do is for the police department to work with the people of Palm Island and we already do that and we have a police citizen's youth club on Palm Island. We have police on Palm Island who I believe work well with the local community and we want to obviously maintain that relationship and hopefully put this behind us and move on. Look I hope so. I think on Palm it will be more difficult than other places. Certainly sometimes we do well too much on the negatives. There are some really good things happening between police and indigenous people. Can I give you about one example and that's the police citizen's youth club model. We currently have police citizen's youth clubs on Palm Island at Yarrabar in Mornington Island. We're about to open one at Dumanji. We're also about to open one at Cooktown and even though that's not an indigenous community the intention is to bust children in from Hopevale and Woodrow Woodrow to Cooktown on a very regular basis. The PCYC's are doing a great job in working well with with the local communities. Look as I said this has been a tragedy for everyone. I just hope that today is the starting point where we can draw the line in the sand with this and move forward. Several points if I could. Last year the CMC released a report on the discipline system. In that report there are 13 recommendations. One recommendation for talks about a similar issue and makes a similar recommendation. I need to probably more clearly understand what it is the CMC is seeking in terms of the legislative change but ultimately whilst I would hope the police department would be consulted by the government in respect of any legislative change any legislative change is a matter for the government. Oh can I just sorry add something to that. Last week the premier announced one of those recommendations in the CMC report on discipline recommendation three talked about the need to develop and further do further work on the police discipline system to do those sorts of things that are common, address those sorts of things that are common criticism but it takes too long that too many people aren't happy with the result and those sorts of criticisms. Last week the premier announced a working party that would do just that but would look at those issues and address recommendation three in the CMC report and the working party that are doing that is announced by the premier last week Simone Webb, retired Supreme Court Justice Glenn Williams and retired Assistant Commissioner Felix Grayson and that working party is being overheard by a steering committee consisting of Ken Smith the Director-General of the Premier's Department Mr. Moynihan and myself so there is already something happening happening in that space. There is an independent review so that officers can be held accountable for their actions so in terms of it I guess that would take away the latest investigation from the cabinet members so that then they would think it's okay. Yeah look I would say that police are already accountable for their actions we are subject probably now without question to the greatest degree of scrutiny that we have and our history as an organization we and this is not one-sided there are a number of police who have been sacked by the deputy commissioners for misconduct and who have been reinstated on appeal by superior courts so it would be wrong for people to think that this is a one-sided argument here and that all that ever happens is that you know police are not dealt with appropriately. We get criticized as well from some quarters particularly the police union when I say we I mean the senior administration of the service the executive for being too harsh and unreasonable we are criticized frequently for that on the other hand we are criticized by some as well for being too lenient and as I said I can give you a number of examples at least half of us we have sacked people and they've been reinstated into the service by appeal courts. How would you view this particular review lenient or harsh? This particular review I have been blinded which I haven't managed to see. I think well can I suggest that people read it and make up their own minds but I think it's a thorough, competent and professional document. No not at all not at all and I think part of the tragedy of this was that and I've expressed this fear before and everyone has expressed views and opinions on this but I think one of the real tragedies of this was I genuinely believe that everyone when I say everyone I think everyone involved in this and it goes beyond the police department sadly thought that this was another death in custody of a person who had died of natural causes and in fact at the very time that this happened on Palm Island back in November 2004 there was another death of an indigenous man in far northwest Queensland who in fact died of natural causes almost at the identical time and what we learned from this sorry I'm just struggling with the flu at the moment if you just bear with me I would drink a water. What we learned from this was that you can never ever ever go into any death investigation and assume anything. Since this happened we have investigated over 50 deaths in custody they are done very differently now to how they were done on this occasion to my knowledge whilst there may have been criticism of the actions of the police in some deaths in custody that has been been no criticism whatsoever from any quarter particularly the coroner who is the most important person in this situation of the quality and the competency of those investigations so yes we should have investigated this differently and better we have learned from that and we have not repeated the mistakes that were made on that occasion. Who specifically gave you CMC actually? I'm sorry could you repeat that question? Who gave you the legal advice? Yeah I haven't sought legal advice on that point you'll recall that in June last year the CMC released this report okay can I refer you to a passage of that report? Yeah sure in essence of what you're saying you believe the CMC can charge these officers? That was at the point where I was asked earlier a particular question and it refers to this comment in the CMC media release this means that after six years and two coroner inquiries the case is now closed and the CMC has been prevented from taking the matter any further. Now as I said I'm not a lawyer but back in June the CMC said this this is a page 175 of the report however if the CMC is not satisfied that is if the CMC is of the view that the intended action will not achieve the purpose of discipline the CMC will assume responsibility for the matter and make application to QCAT to commence disciplinary proceedings. Now the CMC have chosen not to do that I think that is the right decision I support that decision but what what I'm saying to you it just seems to me that that decision was still open to them and they have chosen not to take that course of action. They may have been tomatoed earlier but I thought they could. So you're saying that they can it's not based on any law it's just your law? With the greatest respect so you would need to go back to the CMC and ask what the law is that prevents them from doing it because I'm not aware of what that is I believe it's the right decision I'm pleased that they've come to that determination I don't want to see that happen but what I'm saying to you is that and I accept the right of the CMC to hold their view that it's not quite right to say that the CMC has been prevented in some way by the disingenuous behaviour of the Queensland Police Service from taking any action in this matter. Well I'm not in a position to comment on that firstly I don't to any great degree firstly I don't know precisely what it is that they're seeking in terms of the legislative change and secondly legislative change is not a matter for your police commissioner it's a matter for the Queensland Government. So Commissioner you wouldn't say this isn't the exact... No well not only would I say it's not but I would say that that has been no matter in the history of Queensland probably in the last quarter of a century post Fitzgerald that's been the subject of greatest scrutiny and what it demonstrates I think is that people good people decent people reasonable people can look at something and come to very different views based on the same material that's something you'd have to ask the CMC okay the reason for that is this and I'm happy to if the CMC are agreeable to give you a copy of the letter is that we gave it to them or Retired Deputy Commissioner Kathy Reinders gave it to them as you're aware I was excluded from this process by an order of the Supreme Court so she gave it to them on the 23rd of December it's seen to me that that's the decision-making process you know I was excluded from as you were called from being part of it I think it was reasonable that the CMC had some time to digest that in January and I can't recall a precise date the CMC gave me a direction in writing that I was not to discuss the matter with anyone they the direction included the fact that they had taken it over and the term that is used for that is that they had assumed responsibility so they've taken it over and they've issued me with a direction that I can't discuss it with anyone or release a report now that's my memory but if that's not precisely accurate that's the substance of what was in the letter if the CMC are agreeable I have no objection if you wish to releasing that letter to you and if we could just touch base with you after this media conference and we'll undertake to follow up on that Objectively have relations between police and CMC improved or declined? I'm sorry I forgive me again it was just a bit hard to hear you could you repeat that question look I think that it's not appropriate to comment on the relationship between the police and the chair of the CMC at any point in time what we need to have is a professional working relationship that the people of Queensland can have confidence in and that the people of Queensland can have confidence in both agencies we're both taxpayer funded agencies and the people of Queensland are entitled to have confidence in both bodies and if you I mean when you look at the CMC's legislation the legislation that brings that organisation to existence and provides for its governance it talks about the principles and and and it talks about the two agencies working in cooperation it talks about community confidence it talks about the CMC assisting the police department in terms of capacity building so there are a whole range of things here that govern the act what we need as agencies is to work together in the spirit of that legislation Commissioner you've quoted from the CMC's before there saying that the CMC does have the power to do that thing which it says it doesn't have the power do you believe it is proper that the CMC should have that power? No absolutely the CMC have long had the power to take over an investigation into police behaviour and have long had the power to institute proceedings for official misconduct I have no difficulty with the current framework for that at all. So if it's revealed that they don't actually have that power if after a great lawyer's discussion it's revealed they don't have that power you would be in favor of them being given that power? I don't well they've already got it they've got the power to institute proceedings for official misconduct what the CMC as I understand it have said is that they can't institute proceedings for official misconduct for some legal reason or because of some legal loopholes that you're understanding? That's why I understand what the CMC has said. Okay and what I'm saying with the greatest respect is I think if you wish to pursue that line there's no point asking me you need to go back to the CMC and say tell us exactly what the legal loophole is and what the basis for that assertion is and then again with respect you need to take that to a lawyer yourself and maybe get an opinion on that because I'm not aware of it I can't understand it. Can I say I think it's the right decision not to do that and I don't want to see that happen and I'm pleased that it isn't happening but the point I think is is a relevant one but it's not one for me to decide it's one for you to engage with the CMC about. Do you believe the CMC should have that power to institute? They've got it now and and I have no difficulty in them retaining it. Do you think from our size point of view it would be fair to look at what's happened over the last seven years particularly today with the reasons the CMC gave for not pursuing a matter any further? The CMC may have caved in to the Queensland Police force. No I don't think you could ever accuse the CMC of doing that. It could well be that this sad matter could be looked at into the future in terms of improving the process to ensure hopefully that we never have this sort of time frame again but it's also probably worth recognising that it is you know a judicial process and those things can take time and in this case obviously far too long but that's what's happened so all we can do is learn from it. I mean none of us as much as we would like to we can't wind the clock back. If I could wind the clock back to November 2004 the police department would not have gone anywhere near Palm Island. I would have said to the CMC you do this you do this you go to Palm Island you investigate this but that that statement is predicated with the wisdom of hindsight and wouldn't that be a wonderful thing if we all that and I'm being not being critical of anyone saying that but I'm just saying if I had the time over again we would never ever have done this we would have got the CMC to do it. Can I just go back to your other question too it's important to note that that direction that was given to me not to discuss Kathy Reiner's findings or the report or release it was rescinded today by the CMC so as that today I am able to release it and that's what we've done. That you never would have had the Queensland Police Service involved in that initial investigation that's actually your admission that the investigation was flawed to begin with by the Queensland Police Service. No not at all not at all. Can I restate that I think that what happened with that and I think it's tragic that there's a tragedy of itself in that belief that I think was held by people that this is a death in custody and the the most likely thing of course is it was a natural cause as a young man who died far too early you know and everyone is aware of the dreadful disadvantage suffered by indigenous people I think the reality is that an indigenous man is likely to die 20 years earlier than a white person in Australia and we all accept I think that's terrible um but um had we known the circumstances of of of Moranji's death what I'm saying is had we known of course no one knew no one knew at the time then I would have asked the CMC to take it over right from the start and do the whole thing. Well as I mentioned since this we've investigated over 50 deaths in custody sadly some of those haven't all involved indigenous men who were in custody and the definition of being in custody is a very broad definition very broad definition it includes being involved in a in a police pursuit if the police are chasing someone in a car and that person is killed that's a death in custody so it's a very broad definition and those investigations they're done now by a ethical standards command the CMC and the coroner of course the coroner directs the investigation at all points of this everything is done exhaustively thoroughly and as I said in those 50 investigations since to my knowledge there has not been a criticism of the quality or the professionalism or the competency of the investigation that's been conducted I'm sorry yeah we're probably starting to get now into hypotheticals that are getting a bit close to the margin but in in in the event that that there were a further death of an indigenous person in custody on Palm Island that obviously would be a nightmare for everyone involved but I think in that case we would be asking the CMC to do it not the ethical standards command given the the obvious sensitivities and let's hope that that never happens and we're unconscious and cautious of avoiding it ever happening again but the decision respect to that is not mine it's made by the coroner and currently there is discussion and debate about the next step I guess if you like in this stage and process of investigating deaths in current in custody and one of the things that's under consideration is the concept of having a small group about four saying a very serious very senior experienced investigators actually attached to the coroner's office and that they would do the initial investigation of death in custody or mass death in custody that hasn't been finalized yet it's the subject of current discussion between the coroner the CMC and the police department but it's a decision obviously that would need to be ticked off by the government before it occurred and with the X? Yes look look my sense of it is that they'd still be police officers but they if it were to evolve that way that that occurred the coroner's investigative group that they would be working out of the coroner's office they still have all the powers of police officers but they'd be working out of the coroner's office well yes yes in that sense that I believe that the officers of ethical standards command who have been investigating this death now for some years have demonstrated a sense of independence see when when the police investigated death they don't do that for me they don't investigate that death under my direction they investigate that death under the direction of the coroner if there is a death in custody the coroner controls the investigation so that's a really important thing to recognize so they don't do it for the commissioner they do the investigation for the coroner and they report regularly and frequently to the coroner on the progress of the investigation and the coroner can direct them to do this or to do that or to do something else and that has been in place in Queensland now that legislation that empowered the coroner with those powers was in place before Moranji's death where the CMC prosecuted who I only received from that interview with the coroners um that I'm sorry but that question really um from time to time the CMC will appeal will appeal a decision um a disciplined decision made by a senior officer at the Queensland Police Service um and sometimes and it doesn't happen very often but sometimes they will if they're unhappy and they have the right to do that and sometimes those appeals are successful and sometimes they're not but that to me is all part of the system we have no no that's not what I said if um the the police decide and that's I think as I understand it part of the CMC is angst over this matter um their point as I understand it and it's not for me to speak for the CMC is that because we have decided that the appropriate course of action is managerial guidance that doesn't give the CMC the right to appeal that decision now that may or may not be the case I don't want to get too far into this but but um but it was never our view that the officers should be charged with misconduct if we charged the officers with misconduct hypothetically then if the CMC were dissatisfied with the outcome of that the decision in that regard they could appeal it but we have never been of the view that that should happen uh it is precisely what it says it is in the hierarchy of things that can happen in an investigation there are five um if someone makes a complaint against a police officer there are five things that can happen the first and most serious is that the officer is charged criminally with an offense the second is that the officer is charged with official misconduct the third is that the officer is charged with misconduct the fourth is the officer has given managerial guidance which is educative corrective guidance which basically says this is what you did and this is what you should have done and and and it's about an educative learning um approach and might I say that there are many many entities and jurisdictions worldwide that see that as the best way in terms of dealing with discipline um that educative you know learning approach and then the fifth one is that no action at all is taken in this case since 2008 the view of the police service has been that these particular matters warranted dealing with three managerial guidance Managerial guidance uh a one-off session is it ongoing over the number of years how does that work no no um the managerial guidance in this case if that goes ahead and it would seem as though it will now um will be provided by a very senior officer at least at the rank of assistant commissioner perhaps a deputy commissioner and part of it will be obviously to convey to the officers the significance of what they should have done with the wisdom of hindsight compared to what they did so it could be a day session a yes yes anything else question just one last question would you say this case has cost the Queensland police service and taxpayers millions of dollars uh oh without doubt the the the cost of this is I would think no I don't you'd have to look at every aspect of it uh no it's been a very sad and tragic um affair and uh and um I I just hope that today is a turning point in the sense that we can start to say well you know as sad and tragic as it's been at this point in time on this day we started to close off on it draw that line in the sand and move on and can I just say as well that um these are complex issues um we've released um the Reinders report uh I'm available at any time in the future if there are a follow-up please a follow-up questions okay thank you for your time today