 The answer is tabs all the time Just starting right off with it. Yeah, right Alright, so I thought we'd start with an easy question. Is JavaScript gonna be boring in 2020? Do you think this is boring? This is awesome, right? Well, I you know this is a question that I was thinking about I think JavaScript and Node.js has Become boring in a way. That's actually all right. You know that it's So well established that it's becoming Something that you just expect. I was talking about this earlier in the week and I'll try out my analogy I'm not sure if it'll work, but you know We all turn on the water in our you know our bathrooms or our kitchens all the time, right? We don't even think about it, but just think in those days when those pipes were brand new like in 100 years ago whenever it was and you're like, oh my gosh look at that But it was marvelous, but over time it just became boring and we just expect it now There will be the occasional issues with rust or pollution or whatever it might be, but hey, that's that's that's life of code too, right? For me boring is a sign of success, right? You know you look at Linux. It's used everywhere That's and it's kind of boring. No one really goes to a Linux conference Anymore, but it's used everywhere. So it's to me. It's just a sign of success. No one goes to a Linux conference Yeah, I go you've been the Linux con is not even a thing Yes, it's longer Well, I don't think it's boring at all like there's a lot of events and conference and a new libraries and Packages all the time happening. So I don't think JavaScript is boring I don't think it's going to get boring anytime soon. I mean, yes, it becomes a stable But no boring like a stable is not a synonym of boring Well, but water is not boring water is you can do all kinds of things with water It's just like you can do all kinds of things with JavaScript. So The underlying the underlying JavaScript and Node.js is there and that's a good thing. It should be boring Yeah, me as someone from outside the JavaScript community is more of an infrastructure Person I sometimes get entertained at least by what goes on in the JavaScript community when the whole left left bad thing happened I'm like, all right JavaScript cool. How's that going for you? So from an external perspective It's it's a little bit interesting and exciting but yeah from a stability maturity point of view It's just a widely used technology Of course, it's going to be a little bit more boring than some new programming language out there Yeah, and we kind of started like from the bottom with JavaScript, right? It was developed in 10 days and Not developed for the world that we live in now really But it has evolved over time and it's getting much better and it's getting I mean it has gotten so much better But the language itself just provides so much more and I think that that might be where You know some of the drama came in with like left pad, you know We have we have pad start now and pat end like there's the the language itself provides you with so much that you don't really have to Rely on third-party tools to do that sure and so maybe that is an indicator that it's it's starting to get boring But there is drama from the start There was all kinds of drama You know, I mean there was like, you know, you had Netscape you had son you had Microsoft Yeah, Brendan going on vacation and coming back and the world changed. I mean It was it was a totally different time And but one of the things I find interesting is like in conversations with people especially here over the past few days is There's still an existential crisis though going on, right? There's this there's this fear that oh my gosh You know, we have something so good. We can't ruin it I thought Miles's discussion on that isn't in his keynote the other day really really hit upon it that There are lots of lots of lots of still present fears that are very real Yeah, and kind of tying into that. Do you think that? Like frameworks, do you think the framework wars are coming to a close like are they starting to get more More stable at least in terms of what we're using day to day It's a good question. I mean, you know JavaScript tends to be a community where people like to write little packages and you know, there's lots of solutions out there There's definitely a bit of you know Like monoculture, maybe you're at the word where like there's frameworks that react and angular are probably some of the most widely You know use on these ones. Even jQuery is still, you know running the internet, you know, unfortunately or fortunately, you know You things tend to coalesce in a solution, you know over time We've seen this in other programming languages where some stuff just eventually gets baked into the language itself over time Or there becomes just a standard library. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing but You know that there is definitely some gravitation towards, you know a standard set of tools for folks. I Don't think the frameworks are in a word. They're not like, oh, let's go to battle. I mean I mean for me it's more like a healthy competitions of Frameworks and tools like there is different fragments because there are different needs. So it's not like a word like so Yeah, I don't think there's a word there. Yeah, definitely. I mean it definitely seems like a lot of the popular frameworks are kind of coalescing around the same set of ideas things like virtual DOM and Maybe JSX usage or things like that. There's a lot of coalescing into that Do you see that as being a good thing or is that kind of stifling innovation? You always want to enable competition, but at least from like, you know from an end user perspective, you know I'm a you know, CC plus plus JVM person and sometimes I write basic JavaScript apps And I'm like what the hell do I need like need to use now? It's like what the hell is view JS right like where this come from, right? So it does make it I think a little bit confusing from you know a newcomer and user perspective when you have all these options But the competition is good to kind of ensure innovation will will constantly happen. So it's a trade-off. I agree You mentioned Yeah, yeah, so they are kind of Coalescing around around those ideas and do you think that that is helping us to kind of hone that sword and make that the best the best possible way forward Well when I talk to developers here, they they say there's just different needs, right? And so, you know react has been been you know popular. I think In some respects with larger organizations, you know, and in people who are in smaller shops may have more freedoms and really different needs and demands and So that seems to me like again to what you're saying is like there are different requirements and there's different issues I mean, what do you what do you see people using these days? Well, definitely know it. It's actually I was watching the Stacker flow survey and know it is one of the most widely used but yeah, it's not a framework is a runtime, but still is very used and in after that react and then Angular and view there's also I mean in front end like react angular and view are definitely the top three frameworks into battle but it's more like a competition and Yeah, so that's that's what I see You know as long as stuff gets like eventually baked into the language over time or something thrown in TC 39 You know a lot of the like the stuff that jQuery, you know originally pioneered kind of made itself You know baked in the language over time as long as that competition happens. I think it's it's good It's great for the community. Yeah. Yeah, definitely, and I think that yeah as you mentioned there's like 60% of developers are using react Do you think that that number continues to rise in 2020? Well, I think react grew as much as he could like I don't think there is going to be a massive growth like it doubled the users I don't think that's possible, but I think it's going to grow like a little bit more and if a new framework comes We that a kind of a ecosystem Definitely, but yeah, I don't think it's going to grow like massively. I think it's going to more like Staffinate and yeah, I'm sure there'll always be a Zion for those of us who reject the matrix. Yeah Kind of speaking of that and you kind of mentioned the idea of like a monoculture Possibly forming another Widely you wildly use tool is a type script And so that also has kind of 60% of developers using that according to the stack overflow And it's also the third the seventh most popular language, but the third most interesting language for developers Do you see those numbers changing at all in 2020 or do you see more developers? Seeing the light of a statically type language I'm definitely on team static statically type, but that's just my preference. I don't know. I was born in a different time But I know, you know, you know languages like JavaScript and Ruby were popular for for many reasons But I would love to your opinion. No, I actually see type script growing a lot Like a thing is that is going to grow a lot in this year Yeah, much easier to build tools when you have statically type languages my opinion It's just it has there been that much movement Do you think in the in the community over the past year and changes in type script overall versus other languages? Yeah, it doesn't seem like that That trend's gonna change at all. It doesn't seem like there's anything in the wind unless I'm missing something Yeah, I'm not sure. There's there's lots of things that could change that I'm sure but yeah, there's Not sure sure Yeah But do you see that kind of leading towards a rise of like a monoculture of tooling that we have? Okay, so for example in monoculture tooling I see The developers use like always the same tool for example BS code. They're most of them I mean most of JavaScript developers use BS code for other Languages they have all their toolies, but for Scala and Python and they use all their text editors for JavaScript developers I see most of them using BS code and I think it's good like BS code is a great tool and If it works and as long as it's free and open source, I think it's good. I don't care if Microsoft owns that it's number one on in the octopus. Yeah, it's number one Yeah, I mean as someone who's been involved for open source over 20 years. It's a little bit a little bit terrifying of kind of what's going on in some ways because I spent probably 10 years of my career You know battling, you know the evil Empire at the time which was Microsoft working on You heard of eclipse use if anyone use eclipse again. Sorry. That was partially my fault back in the day but You know, you know eventually what what happened was what did you do to eclipse Chris? You know, I mean if you were a Java developer back And then you probably use it, but I used to write all the plug-in tooling all the get an SCM tooling But those are those another age, but the reason eclipse was formed is because there was a bit of a monoculture of tooling at that time when company owned the majority of tools and the developer Documentation all that stuff and people weren't comfortable. There's no way to customize it. It was an open source And so this huge community Came around eclipse and you know for someone who lived through those battles seeing that, you know, you have vs code You know github A type script, you know all owned again by by one company is a little bit terrifying, you know I think Microsoft's been a great Steward but I think it's something, you know us as developers need to keep these like, you know organizations in Check essentially make sure that what they're doing is actually good overall for for everyone But something that keeps me up at night at least but you know, I've worked with folks that are like, oh, yeah Microsoft's great like, you know, they're amazing. I'm like, I guess now But like some of us have a different context. I mean back in the day culture of Microsoft has changed a lot like it has a very Better reputation that a few years back. They're awesome. Like they've contributed a lot I'm super stoked, but there's always something that you know as the back of my shoulder that you know Let's not let's not make this happen again. Let's go Google. It's so Google is Google comparison. I think Google's great. They contribute back. I've mentored tons of folks on summer at code That's it's a different different history. Google has always kind of been fairly open over time but you know, it's something to think about because at the end of the day like I have it having Competition with different types of developer tools is good. It helps improve things and so on so if we we lose that You know, we just have to be careful. I think we need to ensure that there's enough competition out there You know, there's always, you know, your old Vim Emacs kind of die hard, you know Vim team Vim But you know, we just need to ensure we need to have a healthy competitive ecosystem out there That's fair fair neutral in my opinion. Absolutely, but with the popularity of something like VS code and I just learned today Oh yesterday at this conference though About how, you know, they can package up a full dev environment You can just connect with your browser and have everything Linux running right there VS code remote or whatever. Yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah super swing. How do you how do others compete with that kind of infrastructure? Well, it's interesting is like back in the back in like the eclipse days The whole idea is we want to make tooling free and available. You won't have to pay for you know Code warrior like back in it was terrible yet to pay for tools back then terrible life And so everything was open now What's interesting is like with the trend of kind of having this you know VS code online or other stuff online now It's like hmm, you know is this but not potential opportunity to like charge for certain things now It's like oh you want to have like some fancy, you know linking, you know, that will be five dollars per You know million lines or something ridiculous. I don't know it just you know as an old developer tooling person a little bit It terrifies me that sometimes this stuff will become only sass based and locked again But yeah, but if the if the core code like VS code is fully open then then maybe we're Okay, so yeah and Microsoft Microsoft's on on the good team now. So so so we're good I am not like super concerned about monoculture because at the end I think developers wants to use something that gives them value and VS code gives a lot of value So it's like I don't I don't really see a problem. There is like a monoculture there, of course competition is healthy And if something better comes in great, but if not like it's fine like the monoculture is okay I don't as long as as long as it's useful right as long as it's useful as long as it works Yeah, as long as they're benevolent with it and it's open. Yeah Well, what does that do the other ones out there who are vying for a place then I mean, you know How are you I'm curious on how you're seeing that competition emerge? It can that competition emerge at all that if you just accept that monoculture. I mean, yeah, it Just depends let's just put it that way So we'll see if you know like github starts getting these like interesting like open and VS code online type features But but we'll we'll see and I think developers in general like tools are kind of religion They love, you know things and everyone will have their particular You know nuances. I know folks that you still can't rip like emacs, you know out of them Even though there's much better options these days, but that's just the way certain folks certain folks are So kind of talking about that and leading into that As as those types of things like serverless and cloud infrastructure start Becoming more mainstream becoming more what we do every day How do you see the roles of developers changing seems like with with the ability to no longer have like this monolith code base that You know is in a particular framework or language. You can use the right tool for the right job but what kind of changes does that cause for the Developer maybe like as far down as the front end developer. Do they have to to worry about this as they go? Anything that lowers the barrier for people to Contribute and develop something of use to them. I think it is great. I just don't want to be In a position where you know, you know, I grew up an environment where you could Tinker with computers and you know learn, you know, how everything works when you kind of get this environment We're like on a serverless thing is like, you know, I just need to go write a couple functions tie some events And it just like magically autoscales. I don't have to like understand how any of that actually works I mean, that's a great thing But you know part of learning this to actually tinker and be able to kind of understand behind the scenes of You know of how things work, but well, you certainly have to tinker with Kubernetes. Yeah, that's that's my that's my project these days But but I mean, I get you know, the analogy people use is like, you know You know tons of people drive cars every day. No one really knows, you know, how you know a car works, you know under the hood So I'm like, yeah fair enough. Maybe that's that will happen for you know, the future of apps, you know For the next decade we'll move to a more of a serverless Model and if that brings a whole new generation of developers awesome. I think I think it's great. We need more software developers out there So I have a question for the for the crowd. How many how many here interested in Kubernetes? It's a different audience for me. I'm gonna use Kubernetes. Oh, it's great. Wow. I saw different hands between interested in Well, I'm getting I haven't I have another question then is this for a career interest or just is this for a career interest or for work Do your apps run on Kubernetes? Well, well, that's like I Don't know 20% maybe 15 because I was getting feedback from the from from people who are talking to you We're just saying well You know, I the company starting to use Kubernetes So I think I need to start like looking into it and you know And they kind of like seemed a little bit hesitant about it But the crowd here their reaction a little bit different and I mean I well one thing that would really I think is really would be exciting to see is more people who are in the JavaScript than the community be in the Kubernetes community because there's That that that whole issue around developer happiness is it's it's it is present You know at the end of the day It's like, you know, how many people in the node and JavaScript communities know like how the kernel fully works, right? Probably not not many. I guess I don't think you need to know the full You know internals Kubernetes is a little bit different in a way where you know at the end of day If you're writing a distributed application in your services, you're gonna have to understand a little bit But I don't think you need to Understand the full, you know under the hood how how everything fully works, but well, maybe not how it fully works But at least be involved to help you know improve that improve the improving develop improving developer experience is always a always a fun topic So, you know, it's a tool that was originally built by infrastructure, you know engineers I mean the kernels not necessarily user-friendly. No, you know anyway, so Yeah Yeah, but bringing in those Different like more diverse thoughts absolutely help. I'm curious on what is the node and JavaScript community need to make it more diverse and happy Is there any do you put on that? I mean Do you see anything in particular from now when you talk to people about or when you look it out across the community? What would be What would bring what would make the community richer in terms of its participation or do you think it's pretty far ahead of other communities from what you've seen Well, I mean you can just see it right here. It's not like a very diverse community Like I just want to see like how many women are here like oh identify as a women You see like there is very little like So I think a lot of work has to be done into the more diversity and more community Because it's proved this has like scientific studies that shows that when a more diverse If the team is more diverse, it has a better results in every sense So I think diversity is very very important and also for example, I saw video like a couple of months ago They're really impacted me. It was just like a a simple soap dispenser so you put the hands and it gives you soap soap, right and so it only Worked for white people if a black person put the hand like the soap couldn't read that it was a Person there is I wouldn't give them so so that's why like diversity It's so important like for me like the people that are creating software that are creating technology I'm creating the future and we need a future that is more diverse for everybody. So we have like a better word, right? So So yeah, I think we definitely need more diverse communities and more diverse events and Totally The people creating the tools are creating the tools for them. Yeah, exactly. And so we need a more diverse Outlook a more diverse Mindset that goes into that to make sure that it accounts for everyone and not just the people developing it That's a cross. I think a ton of a ton of factors geos gender, you know, etc One thing that kind of was interesting for me reading the the stack overflow Survey report where I think it was the majority of people according to that report where it had Less than I think three or three to five years. It's like as it as a developer So just also making sure you're you know inclusive for for people that are for new to the craft, you know A lot of people are learning on their own and all the stuff and so trying to make sure the communities are inclusive to the folks They're just starting their journey. Absolutely. What are some action actionable things that we can do in 2022? Make that easier for new developers and more diverse developers to get in Well, I know it's partly our responsibility and you know in the media to to be a part of that I really believe it. I I think that part of our role is not to use to like Talk to people from various backgrounds and really get there Get their perspectives on application development or or application management, right? Or how you building architectures and just trying to reach as many people as we possibly can who are representative of the of largest society because underrepresented minorities are are sorely looked over from our point of view Yeah, for me like a lot of there's a lot of things that to be done. For example, you can mentor somebody else from Represented you can also donate money Also, one of the things that I'm from Columbia and one of the things that has worked a lot is Just leaders creating meet-ups or conferences and also like giving all these opportunities to people that cannot like access to them So so yeah, there's a lot of things to be done. I guess I actually was seeing the github survey and It was really impressive that the open source community is growing a love in Nigeria I was like, well, that's very interesting and also like in South America So I think there's a lot of talent out there. It's just they don't have like the environment and the resource to Give back and to create awesome things. So it seems like at least, you know, we cover the the cloud native community pretty closely and and There's a very small. It's a very small community of underrepresented minorities But there's a very core strong group of people who are very very close and very You know supportive of each other and it's that mentorship and that you know And that those peers that seem to be so important for those communities if for the communities really, you know Build upon that. Yeah, I think it just has to be part of your values And you know for also help run developer relations at the Linux Foundation and something we do for all of our events is You know have, you know diversity, you know scholarships on every single, you know event we do Lunches networks and anything to kind of help connect people You know, I hope more conferences, you know, continue to do that type of work also meeting people where they are So, you know doing events that may be a new Geos and stuff like that. So people could travel, you know, sometimes, you know, we held Cube con recently a couple couple weeks two three weeks ago And we're running to people that could had like visa issues coming into the US because you know God forbid we can't run a country anymore, but you know, it's it's it's just a tough situation Other existential crisis. Yeah existential crisis. So like, you know, like doing events in, you know Regions where it's easier for people potentially to get to or or closer to to to where they are Yeah, definitely, and I definitely think it's it's good to have Like you want to see yourself in your role models and so having that diverse set of role models is really important I was also reading a book recently about how like one way to or a big way to address this is Through having having role models when you're young about and you know really encouraging that when you're young And seeing people who look like you and having them as role models And I think one really great way that we saw at this conference was Ellie Galloway. Ellie Galloway She really She really I think Lit up the stage in just a way that she also lit up her software, which is fascinating, too Just that that whole kind of new age of Jewel bots and IOT and it gives me a little bit more faith in humanity At least because at that age, I was doing stupid stuff. So yeah And for that, but I was thinking about her and She comes from a good environment and has supporting parents and all of this But what happened with the kids that don't have yeah, right? So that's why the community comes in like people for example, I have in the community. I'm from We volunteer to high schools that we go there like a lot of community leaders actually Come from high schools that people were teaching each other. So so yeah, I think Ellie is a great example It's awesome. I I hope to see more kids and more girls involved I think it's also the people in this room, right? You know every every person who's sitting in this room right now after 5 p.m. On a Thursday Montreal, Canada many far far from home Very passionate about their work. I mean and they can stand and that that's just always can be shared and I think it's just the more Opportunities to share that passion and share that dedication. I think actually can be very self-fulfilling too Yeah, so what are some things that we can do in our work in our open-source work in our local communities to That are actionable though that can push this message forward in 2020. It's so many things. I mean, you know I'm sure all of us know that you know our communities with local meet-ups You know supporting the groups that are really supporting underrepresented minorities Girls who code as a very strong chapter in Portland There's I think there's also ways to reach into to the schools You know For instance, I mean I come from a you know background in journalism So there's plenty of opportunities for for me to go out there and you know and talk to people about the work that I do I think that's so just so very true for developers Yeah, I think companies must be involved as well like they they have the resource to Make more diverse communities and to yeah, because one of the biggest struggles, especially for their work countries and is money, right so Companies should be able to give more and yeah, I think companies should work I know so like people in general just like volunteering mentoring Just giving workshops the meet-ups is a big thing There's lots of ways to donate including time yeah resources like money and food and things like that Yeah, I'd spend I run a local Kubernetes meet-up mentoring. I've helped people sometimes land You know internships that they may not have you know the connection because you know that you know, but I think you know There's tons of developers out there, but like opportunity is not something that's necessarily you know equally spread You know it to everyone so just making that connection, you know for someone definitely definitely helps Cool, so there's one other subject that I wanted to transition into before our time is up and that is security What do you think think there'll be some kind of huge hack or vulnerability disclosed in 2020 Terrifies me like every day. I don't know how many people follow There's an account called internet of shit on Twitter. Yes, one of the best ones, right? And so it's just like every day. It's just like why do we need like something that like makes cookies, you know How it needs to have like an IP so it could like SMS me when the cookies are done or like Recently it was like a toilet needs a firmware update and you're like You know so so what's crazy is that you're having you know Software is pervasive. It's all around us now in you know toothbrushes fridges TVs. The thing that terrifies me is you know Let's say non-traditional tech companies may not be the best tech savvy folks So they may not like update their dependencies as much even developers in the crowd like You know how many people here like When they publish to npm like how many do you people like sign your packages and also have 2fa enabled on your account? I don't think it's everyone in this in in this room. There's one. Oh, yeah We got one is there another one in the house So it just just So just just in general having like good security practices that are not only followed by open source developers or companies So this is something that definitely keeps me awake at night because software is just gonna end up in more and more things from like cars and You know, I now have like one of those fancy little electric thermostats at home Like what happens if you know someone hacks it and messes with the temperature and drives me crazy So it's like it does. I think security is is a global Thing that we have to all work together on improve and and it's and it cuts across communities It's not only you know that the node or open JS community, you know, we have it in Kubernetes land We we recently sponsored a bunch of security audits for our communities I would love that something that open JS could do to kind of fund these things But it's it's it's something terrifying, but the opportunity I think as a bunch of communities come together and prove things It's awesome. Yeah, I was just actually I was just looking at From the SNCC presentation today. Did anyone go to the SNCC presentation today? Was it revealing to you? Yeah, super revealing and like the new root vulnerabilities each year got each year by ecosystem It's you know MPM is just gone whoop And you know, but it's true too for a cross open source. I mean you you see this across the community Yeah, it's a software supply chain issue. Yeah, it's it's such a multifaceted problem because there's just no one solution Right like it could be bad dependencies. It could be maintainers that disappear like all this stuff happens It's really like a cultural change that you have to do to kind of get things and it's something we should all work Together across are you seeing it? I mean are you seeing developers? I mean in your colleagues who you talked to are they caring more about security? Oh, yeah all the time. Okay. All right. All right. I'm happy to hear that Especially like the people that work some security like they're super paranoid with everything. I have seen that there. Yeah, yeah So paranoia, you know that can work, right? Yeah I mean, I'm not where I don't work in security. So I'm like super relaxed. I'm like Sorry, I was like maybe we should have like we usually have like meetups to like learn about like new languages Maybe it's like let's just do like a meetup to like hey everyone turn on to a faith Please or something like yeah to like teach people the benefits But I don't know something needs to be done. It's definitely keeps keeps me up Well, this is the existential crisis of I think this is the 2020 existential crisis and actually I this is the biggest threat I think to the node in JavaScript community and I think you know It's security bar none and it's not just node. It's not just JavaScript, but we're here in Node.js Confance, so I'm like, you know that that's a cube con. I'm at an automotive manufacturer to that's like Oh, yeah, we're gonna put like Kubernetes in the car. I'm like, why would you do that? People will do that to like, you know, I'm sure it's in Chick-fil-A I'm not all like nodes probably in some car. It's probably like in Tesla space. Yeah, it's yet space. That's that's also terrifying Which version Well, yeah that That is a big thing I think to watch out for in 2020 is security the first CVE in space Someone's gonna get that and that's gonna be quite awesome Oh, I think there was one. I think they did have a CVE in space. Okay. Oh, no, no, no, no, there was a okay No, it's not a person. I think it's something in space. I think there was actually a person charged with a crime in space But you know CVEs are to come Well, I want to thank you all Do we have run out of time? They say to usually end these things on a high note, but instead we're Thank you so much