 Great. We're live on HowlRound, and I'm good for you to admit the audience. Have a great show. Thanks. Good morning, everyone. I'm Blair Thomas, coming to you from the sunny but very cold Chicago in the Chicago International Puppet Theatre Festival in our final weekend, and here we are with the Ellen von Hulkenberg Puppetry Symposium being co-hosted by the School of the Art Institute and the Puppet Festival, and glad to be here in the virtual space with you all. I want to just start by acknowledging that all the buildings that the Puppet Festival is taking place in, the almost dozen different venues that shows have been happening at are all sitting on the lands that had belonged to the Anachinaabe peoples around the Great Lakes area that included the Peoria, the Potawatomi and the Sock Tribes, and for centuries these people have stewarded this land and for this we express our gratitude. Today we have our first symposium on race and representation in puppetry, and this is being moderated by my colleague Paulette Richards, and I have to say it's a great honor for me to be able to work with Paulette. She is an independent scholar and educator at Puppet Theatre based in Atlanta, Georgia, and she has worked with the Puppet Festival in our online classes. She's been a leader in our catapult program, served in our recent strategic planning committee, and so she and I have co-created this years for symposium panels, and her interest in puppetry covers Puppetry in the Black Atlantic to animatronics and contemporary practices. She also co-curated with John Bell the exhibit at UConn at the University of Connecticut. The exhibit is called Living Objects African American Puppetry at the Ballard Institute of Puppetry, Museum of Puppetry. She was also a Fulbright scholar to Senegal and has led workshops at the Friends School of Atlanta Decatur Makers, the DeKalb County Public Library, the Center for Puppetry Arts and the Puppeteers of American National Festival. Paulette is working on a book entitled Object Performance in the Black Atlantic. It's forthcoming on Rutledge Press in 2023. So I have to just quickly say before I turn it over to Paulette that this event is being captioned and recorded by HowlRound. And so some of you are seeing it on HowlRound and others through Zoom. There's two methods. If there's a chat available to you, you can please, you can post your questions in the chat. And then we'll have about an hour presentations and then we'll have some half an hour of question answering from our panelists here. And so other than that, I'm going to pass it over to Paulette. Hey, greetings. Thank you, Blair, and thank you everyone for joining us for this third session of the Ellen Van Volkenberg Puppetry Symposium Series at the Chicago International Puppet Theatre Festival. I'm Paulette Richards, and I am serving as the moderator of this panel on Race and Representation in Puppetry. Just a brief rundown on what took place in the series before, the first panel looked at how object performance allows us to interrogate the hierarchized distinctions that enlightenment philosophers like Honei de Kalk drew between animals, humans, and objects. The second panel considered Robin Froheart's The Plastic Bag Store as an opportunity to reflect on the impact, the view that humans are separate from the natural world has reaped on the planet. And those two sessions have been recorded and are available for your viewing pleasure on lives on the HowlRound. Our third panel today explores the use of object performance as a means of resisting the objectification of colonized bodies. Jamika Holloway, director of Dreaming, has found herself continually reflecting on Toni Morrison's quote, If there is a book that you want to read, but it hasn't been written yet, you must be the one to write it. Our panelists have taken that advice to heart by putting these unsung stories on stage. Specifically, these artists have staged stories of people who have historically been treated as objects. Thus, their work further connects with efforts that colonized and enslaved peoples have made to hold on to object performance traditions. And just a little brief summary of each show so you know the context that we're coming in from. Dreaming has been postponed, unfortunately, to the 2023 iteration of the festival, but it addresses the legacy of racism in comics and animation by interrogating the work of Windsor McKay, specifically characters that he created for Little Nemo in Slumberland. The tie to foes new work in progress skeleton canoe presents a rite of passage journey as young Robin seeks to reclaim ancestral knowledge. And finally the bluest I is an adaptation of Toni Morrison's debut novel. The addition of puppets to Lydia Diamond script is a novel way of inviting the audience to empathize with characters who struggle with their embodiment in objectified bodies. We are honored that the creators of these fascinating shows have joined us this morning. I will introduce our guests in alphabetical order. Then each will give a short presentation about their work. And after those presentations as the moderator I get to pose two or three questions to start the discussion. We will open the floor for questions we're happy to take your questions at any point in the chat whether you were in the zoom room with us or on the how around live stream, and our crew will feed those up, and we will get them out into the floor in the open session. So, first to introduce Tory Ben, who is a puppet artist and scenic designer, her puppetry has been seen across the country and included in festivals such as La Mama puppet festival, the great small works international toy theater festival, and the puppeteers of America festival. Her work, the paper hat game is a New York Times Critics pick a drama desk award nominee, and it received the best toy theater award from the puppeteers America festival, as well as an Unima USA citation. She has received grants from the handsome foundation, the Mid Atlantic Arts Foundation Foundation for contemporary arts, and many other funders. Additionally, she is an associate professor at Duke University. Working with Tory Ben as the director of dreamer is Jamaica Holloway, an award winning freelance director and producer based in Durham, North Carolina. Jamaica was a 2018 indie arts winner, a 2019 20 grant recipient from both the man bites dog theater fund and from the Ella Foundation Pratt emerging artists program. In February 2019. She was honored by the African American Heritage Commission and Governor Roy Cooper for her contributions to the arts and culture landscape of North Carolina. She was recently named the 2021 2022 row green visiting director in residence at Kent State University, and her directing work has been presented on northern stage Shakespeare in Detroit, the National Black Theater Festival, classic stage Dartmouth college and the Duke Department of theater studies. After Jamaica Holloway, we have Ty DeFoe, who grew up in the Ojibwe and Oneida communities of his parents. He learned hoop dancing as a toddler, and can you continues to incorporate the hoop dance and the eagle dance in his performances. Ty describes himself as two spirit rooted in words, a shape shifter of artistic expression, bringing stories to life. A member of the dramatist guild of America, Ty has written produced and performed in many theater productions, including clouds are pillows for the moon in the cards and Heather Hanson's flight, a crane story. His Grammy Award winning album, come to me great mystery features healing songs by several native American musicians. And to round out our lineup. We have Margaret Lorena Kemp, who recently earned promotion to full professor of theater and dance at UC Davis let's give her a shout out for that. She is extremely difficult. She is an actor, multi disciplinary performing artists and writer who completed her bachelor of science in interdepartmental studies from the School of Speech at Northwestern University here in the Chicago area camp subsequently trained at the theater in Washington DC and earned certification as a master teacher in the Fitz Morris voice work system. She also joined the faculty of MI CHA that's the Michael check off association. In addition to her work as an educator. She maintains an active performing career on stages such as arena arena stage yell rep, and the magnet theater in Cape Town, South Africa, where she met Johnny young, who is her collaborator for this production of the blue her screen credits include roles in Children of God, blood bound, the Orlando Jones show and commander in chief. So, then we will now move into the panelists presentation starting with Tory Ben and Jamaica Halloween. Thank you. Hi, thank you, Paulette. I'm just going to make sure I can actually pull up my notes here. Okay, there we go. It's a real honor to be here in this virtual room with everyone today and thank you, Paulette and Blair for making this possible for gathering all of us. As Paulette mentioned, Jamaica night. We're not able to actually perform our production with you all in person. This year we look forward to doing that in the future, but so so grateful to be with you all right here and right now. So instead we're going to be sharing some images with you today tell you a little bit about our production and the process that we've gone through. I'm going to make a small note of correction, Paulette. I am actually the director and Jamaica is the associate director although that is a rich point of conversation in itself. And we certainly work as partners in this process. I just wanted to add thank you so much for having us and so happy to be here. I'm always in conversation with Tori around this work it seems like over the last two or three years it's sort of become this sort of ritual with us we're always gathering in the name of the work. And I will say that Tori and I, even though we are in different locations are in both in Durham, North Carolina on the traditional lands of the Okemichi's that only and you know trials and would just love to share share out of gratitude for their contributions, their original contributions to arts and culture and cultivation on these lands. So to start, we'll just give you will have images and we're going to give you a little sense of what the show is talk through the plot. A little bit about the puppets puppets and then we're going to get into more of the process in making this work and one of the things that Jamaica and I have found a sort of a priority in, in this show in particular but we think it's probably applicable to really making work that tells BIPOC stories in general and so we think it might be an interesting point of conversation today. Sure. Yeah, one of the things that has continued to come up for us throughout every iteration of this piece is all of the ways that we can center care for the artists who are a part of this process and some of the some of the ways that we implement we've had to learn to do so the hard way right like through through sort of watching artists reach and meet bandwidth and capacity with the overall with with all of the elements that go into this work the mathematics of puppetry the physical obligations and then also you know, when it comes down to mental mental health and because so much of this, especially I think for people of color. It, this work becomes very low much more loaded. And so I just will just start a little bit talking a little bit to give me a little synopsis of life. In May follows two men deeply affected by Windsor McKay's comic strip little Nemo and slumberland, which was published from 1905 to 1914. The play takes place in 1934 after McKay's death in a world in a world where comic book characters live side by side with real people. Malika Washington and an artist and visionary works for free comments. He works to free comments stuck in races and prejudice bodies. We can go to the next slide please. And then we have Bob McKay, Windsor McKay's son, who seeks to revive his father's old comic strip. To do so he must first spawn and then convince the old characters from the strip, the strip to join him in the remake. The two men confront each other and learn that Malika was once trapped as a character empty and Windsor McKay's racist depiction of an African boy who speaks only gibberish. At the end of the play Malika reveals his work, free in comics is a part of a larger vision to free not just bodies, but minds from the limits of white imagination. So we want to go. So we want to make sure that we also talk about the puppets a little bit. There's, there's three types of puppets that we use in the show we've got our tabletop toy theater and overhead. In this image you can see our tabletop character of Malika and those puppets are our lead characters, and they're also real people so they are walking around in 30s New York. They're tied by side with toy theater puppets, which are flat obviously toy theater. And they're the comic stuck in the two dimensional form so sort of cast as these comic characters and comic strips cartoons, the time. And those are in our two dimensional form and in color. We also utilize toy theater to create the historic environment of New York in the 30s, the buildings, also crowds of people in Harlem in Hell's Kitchen so we get to see the movement in depth of the city through these black and white photographs of 1930s New York in opposition to these comic images that are created by that are original that we have in the public domain that we've used of replicas of images from comics and cartoons of the time. And then our third type of puppetry is overhead, and we use the overhead projectors, excuse me, to tell stories of the flashbacks memories dream sequences and Windsor McKay's cartoon work. And we, and other moments will use it to layer and to add texture to the toy theater to the toy theater world. But there's, it also allows us to play with this idea of embodiment dimension real life character and the flattening of racist and stereotypes bodies that are happening in these in these cartoons. Can go ahead and go to the next slide. So tour should we start talking a little bit about the way that I was incorporated into the process and see where they are. Yeah, yeah, that would be great. Yeah. Okay, so so I'll say that I came on to I came on to the project a couple of years in. I want to say tour you had already done a couple of workshops of the piece. I've already sort of seen a couple of new lives right new versions and at some point we got into collaboration with power crafts, a Durham based playwright and Howard really crafted out this one of one of his specialties and writing is crafting out these beautiful black superheroes. And so I love the world that Howard has really created for us here that where the rules are sort of set up to really be conducive for the world of puppetry and really embracing that sort of the scale of the you know comic book nature and so anyways I came on to this project. No, because we I think Tori with understanding that it needed a little cultural context around some of the ideas that were really shaping and forming around the work. And I think one of the things, a couple of the things that we just sort of laid out on the table immediately is, is that with Tori as a facilitator of this particular story. It also needed to be assisted with folks who could do a little cultural authentication around the shaping of the world and I think that that's probably around the first time that we understood that the sort of care that this play needed. And then it started to grow as we were thinking about who the performers of the work is and as you can see with some of the images here. I don't know how difficult some of the embodiment may be for and we haven't even gotten to I think the more explosive ones. But in the world that we're creating 1930s the world that we explore in the end 1930s there's a lot of loaded material that needs to be handled with a lot of responsibility, a lot informed choices. It's so useful to hear your perspective because I think it is, it's meaningful that Jamaica came in later in the process and and because she was needed and in retrospect and as as we've been learning as I've been learning through this process. You know, you, it's easy to say well I should have done this sooner but it is important to do it as soon as you realize it. Yeah, even if we're wrong to not realize it earlier and so yeah Jamaica came in really at this point where it was clear that cultural contact was this was essential and that I was not able to provide that alone. And I can go more into that history but I wanted to make sure that Jamaica you had kind of finished what it felt like to to step in and to be and to become a part of this project. Yeah, and because I don't come from a background of puppetry my work has really been centered on live performers, you know, live it on stage this learning the mathematics of puppetry. And you know, really the logistics of all that goes into it was also just so illuminating in the time in that time, especially coming on in the role that I did, because what I was learning and really blame blaming is not only are you know these puppeteers operating these objects and these, you know, the puppets. I think there was such symbolism and the fact that they're also building the world of this story as they are sort of setting up, you know, seeing to see. And so like how so so for me it's like, you know, rebuilding the world of their traumas. And so to. So I think you know that impulse for us to really sit deeply with the ways in which this story was told, like what the makeup of this casting needed to look like for the thriving of it. And then like what are the sort of conversations that that we that we need to be having around it. And I think we were so we were really blessed with a very, you know, curious cast and a cast that was really that really lean into dissecting some of these moments, these some of these moments of imagery and even some of the sounds I remember we had this laugh at one time that we cuts no longer there and so there are also these like sonic elements of the play that really had to be reshaped. When we made the decision that this play was going to be about community and care, and we haven't always done a great job of like staying on mark with that right like that should be said. But I think, you know, being like very early on in the process just thinking about all of the elements and how they came together. We knew that like the what we had a responsibility to these artists to to move in a way that was unique to puppetry. And, and as Jamaica says it, you know, we, I certainly came to this but we came to this through process that you know that this work was created and started, because I had come across McKay drawings in a, in a book and just found his scale and his perspective shift and his dramatically theater theatrical visuals, absolutely compelling and as a puppet maker and also with a scenic background it just felt like it was begging for, for some sort of puppetry adaptation, probably next slide I think I've gotten off of my slides here. But I so I took, I took these original drawings way back when this is like six years ago now. And, and when on an artist retreat to really make this adaptation and what I quickly realized is that I had a really big decision to make, and that was was I going to make a piece of work that ignored some of the main characters and Windsor's work. And, or was I going to actually tell a story and comment on Windsor McKay and, and that question you can look at previous adaptations of little Nemo and summer land and most people ignore and be most people just drop and be from. It's been done as a theatrical play musical. It's been done as a cartoon. And most people drop it to drop the character all together some people in one case I think someone had turned and be into a sort of pet like rabbit for for Nemo to run around with. And so really that question was so important and what I realized is that I wanted to make sure that we were interrogating Windsor. I wanted to make sure we were looking at how these comics impacted cartoons and animation today and to do that we had to show both the brilliance and the flaws of Windsor McKay. We are running short on time I can't believe that I know that was so I'm going to just jump to me because it okay to fight kind of jump to my last question. I think, I think one of the things that we've come to in the sense of care that Jamaica talked about and how essential that is, is that we need to be prioritizing the care while making difficult work. It's, and it but it's greater than just prioritizing care for puppeteers or or people of color it's really understanding that that puppeteers often in puppetry take second fiddle to the object itself and that could create a place where we are not seeing and not attending to the puppeteers that are interacting and bringing these things to life. We as puppet makers spent a lot of time on all that detail on all that scenery those puppets, we don't want to cut them. And yet, particularly when dealing with material that is sensitive and dealing with performers of color and wanting to center people of color, and the stories of BIPOC folks. So I want to make sure that we're tending and creating space and making sure that this process of telling difficult stories isn't re traumatizing anyone, and can be actually healing process. So I guess my question with that is, how possible is that certainly in our process, that has been the thing that has come to the front as we've learned how to be better at making this work. And it's something that as we go forward want to continue to make sure that we're getting better and better at. Thank you so much, Tori and Jamaica. And that is an excellent question that you have put on the table. So, next we will turn to Ty Defoe. Are you there, Ty? Are you ready? Hello, everyone. I am so ready. Wow. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge on that piece and I cannot wait to experience it. So, Miigwech. So, you everyone are a boot to the shoe. Ty Defoe and Dejna Kaz was swaggering in Dunjiba, Magizan Nindo Dem. I said hello, good morning, feeling the weekend vibes ready to talk about race and representation. Because it's in the morning, it's at noon, it's in the afternoon, it's in the evening. And I am, you know, talking about racism representation and also decolonization and how that relates specifically to native indigenous peoples and I just also want to underscore to that I'm just speaking from one experience, which is my own, and also providing hopefully some teachings from mentors and elders and other puppet makers who have been invisible eyes and, you know, a race by colonialism so that is seen in a different view. But I'll go to the next slide so hello and good morning. And also I will say too, I'm very excited because I'm on the land of the Council of Three Fires. So, here is a photo I embarrassed there of my son at the age of seven that began started working with objects in the objects called hoop. And hoops, it's a special dance. To me, 24 inches in diameter, and you begin to make different animal form, you get to different relatives, as I refer to the two-legged four-legged winged and rooted. And so, so I just wanted to share this with you all once when I had bangs. But this dance is very highly, you know, it talks about how we are all intra and interconnected, which is very important as it relates to indigenous native philosophy in particular the Anishinaabe people. And yeah, so here are some of my greatest teachers, my mother and my father, and I wanted to show you them both because they are both movers, movement workers, dancers, and acting different stories as it relates to being showcased at, I guess, community events, ceremony events, and also public powwows. And my mom on the left here wearing this like beautiful, elaborate medallion of an eagle at which my father is that is his clan representation in terms of sacred ceremonies, how to be, who you're related to and everything. And my father on the right, of course, who is sort of looking at what seems like at the ground is holding a shield and dancing with a shield and feathers and a fan. And I wanted to show these two photos because at an early age for me, I begin to learn about the story, I begin to learn the importance about culture, and it really started to shape not only language but also worldview. So when I think about, you know, object, for example, I think, when I think about object as an Anishinaabe person, I think about a subject and I think about relative relationships. And so not necessarily, you know, things described as, as nouns, but you know when we when something has a word in the language it becomes real it actually becomes relative. So what are the ways that we are making, you know, reciprocal with so called objects stories, they actually become a living breathing entity. And we'll go to the next slide. Here is my grandmother I kind of pulled out my grandmother went to a boarding school right so folks don't know about boarding schools and I hope that you do. This is very important as it relates to native indigenous history. So these boarding schools at a time, you know, language was taken away, hair was cut stories were taken away this began this great white settler colonial project right of completely invisibilizing in a racing native indigenous people from their stories from their stories. And since we're talking about puppetry today puppets right. And all of, all of the things that make you who you are so I wanted to show you the sort of cookie cutter. Like personified image of what you know everything should look like it should look like the same thing. And it goes without saying this is, you know, I am a survivor of this handed down past historic trauma. We'll go to the next slide. Because of that, you know, because of because of that handed down historic trauma. It was always embedded in me to really centralize community at an early age. I'm at an elder care center here you see someone with the walker and other folks gathering in different places to tell stories. I began to go and I was actually very shy and did not want to speak. So it was really easy for me to move through space and sort of operate and work with objects to tell stories. And because of that, I did at every opportunity along with different teachers to tell stories. Some of those teachers are you Kevin Locke and Dallas chief eagle and the passing of Joanne Shenandoah incorporating songs. And I'll go to the next line. You know, I show up to the Chicago International Puppet Festival right I'm on this neighborhood tour, going to many different neighborhoods. And, you know, I'm talking about a symbolic literacy right knowing worldview and that at an early age. So show up in Chicago, and I see images like this posted all over, you know, I think this was taken in last week over at Navy pier inside, and you see there's a black cop. If folks don't have not seen this image before outside of a United States context. It is a hockey team that's, you know, and there's things that are going around about mascots, and, you know, white settler colonialism, really sort of pushing a false and narrative forward, and perpetuating myths about what native indigenous people need to look like be like feel like talk like eat like, I mean it goes down to a very cellular level. And of course, that goes definitely with puppetry. So I'm going to talk a little bit about symbolic literacy. We'll go to the next line. This I want to show you this is actually comes from the Americas and it's an exhibit from the Museum of the American Indian. And of course, you know native imagery has been used by the federal government to distinguish the United States, in particular Turtle Island from other nations to divine nation for citizens. You know images like this were used by us armed forces to express the militarization right to define the American corporations and to signify to people and to designers to add a sort of luster or a cache to commercial products, right, which sort of plays into capitalism. And we know capitalism is a cousin of white settler colonialism so images like this, that are shown throughout history, these, some of these images still exist. Some of them have been because of community organizers and folks really looking at the invisibilization of native people have, you know the Land O'Lakes butter of course indigenous female has just been, you know, removed from the world so there are things that are happening, but there is so much more to do. There's something, you know, a question in this exhibit that is asked is how is it that natives can be so present, and then also so absent in quote American life, right, when you think about it. Native peoples are less than 1% of the population, but where you ever you go in the United States, you see these kinds of images in grocery stores at gas stations still. And it's something that also becomes numb, if you're not really looking for these kinds of symbols will go to the next line. Yeah, every time I look at this I'm just like wow it's just almost unimaginable when I think about ancestors and what folks had to, you know, sort of go through so we could be here today in 2022 and I could speak here in the zoom. So these are some of these images might be familiar to people right so there is something coursing through, of course the enclave of the puppetry world, as well as a greater political. There's puppets, there's hand puppets there's finger puppets of course there's in cool objects right that people are moving around. But these images are made by non indigenous individuals, they are produced by non indigenous individuals. They are directed by non indigenous identified individuals, you know, and the image on the left here is, you know, is very. It's, you know, a marionette puppet mechanically works like a marionette puppet, but if you look very closely at something that's personified like this, the symbolism is so far reaching to be native or indigenous or to exemplify what a native indigenous person might look based on an era of romantication of exotifying indigenous men in, you know, warriorship roles and leadership roles. You know, and of course, the perpetuated myth of the Thanksgiving tale, where, you know, so much is not said about the genocide of native people in Turtle Island. And of course, the Sesame Street right Sesame Street people grew up with Sesame Street, and I had to include this images, because it gets very complicated very quickly. How could you know what you don't know, right. So it's on allies and accomplices to do the work to really understand politically what's going on with native people to engage with community and to really ask the questions about how to amplify voices if you're very interested in that. You know, people are doing as much work as they can. And this is just, you know, images throughout decades of time of what is happening in puppetry so we'll breeze through these next slide so we'll go through the next slide please. Yes. And so native indigenous puppetry has been on Turtle Island for decades we're going to get into some images that were given to me from teachers and collaborators I'm working with now. Next slide. This is exclusively used in society rituals. It's not an actual like carving of a doll or a puppet that's used in my daily one side society but it's something that's publicly can be seen figures like this. From a survival exhibit and some an image like this. The object is hollowed out and it's in there are sacred things placed in its chest and sometimes it's backside for healing purposes right. So sometimes puppetry in my worldview was used for sacred sacred acts for for healing. So go to the next image. I mean, some of the biggest influences to me or here is someone from the clinkett community is Jean tag event right someone who I saw as a youth who was there placing on, you know, Raven feathers to tell stories and an acting stories with a wooden head. This to me was puppetry. And it's something that was like highly influential to me. Next slide please. Yeah, buddy big mountain a marionette performer in Florida that you know if you weren't looking you probably just pass by and say oh this is a marionette performer but was a really influential. We'll pet we'll go to the next line. There's another picture and next slide. I just wanted you all to see these really amazing images. And corn husk dolls from the holiday to show me nation right dolls that were given to teach about vanity to young women. Next slide. And puppets now that are talking about language revitalization puppets used in communities that a nation as well as Canada. Next slide. And the cream nation. Right. I think native people are so funny and are using puppets to really meant. So, here's an image right by a, I guess cross racial team. And I always think about I think about how our people collaborating and what kinds of questions ethical questions that you need to ask each other before you start collaborating. So this is one production I've been following called the breathing hole, and you can go to the next slide, and I'll just keep talking thanks Josh. You know, it's like it is what does it mean to think about stories and puppets as a tool for resistance to fight against colonial inequity and erasure. Right. I think these are things that if you're collaborating with someone you like me to talk about right up front, because you know it's the difference about being in quote good or being real, like which one do which one would you like to do so next slide. And Josh you can just breeze through these next slides and I'll just talk so people can kind of see as I'm chatting. Thank you. So some birch bark I'm working with really interested in materials materials. I think, you know, here at the Chicago puppet international festival and working with materials and really fascinated by that. I think it's really important and I'm just showing some images from productions I'm working on, of course a G jack internal island made with several collaborators Kevin to run Don Avery and Heather Henson. You know, a lot of this work I think because it isn't, you know, out there so much. It's really galvanizing people to engage in dialogues about that. Some of these puppets, of course, were made by the Jim Henson workshop which I was so grateful to work with and bring a life stories and bring those to people so people can think, especially indigenous youth and people in our communities that our stories are animate their their animate things to be heard and spoken of. So if you're on the neighborhood tour, I utilize materials such as wings that were given to me at a young age, and I kept using those of course to study the movement of objects and puppetry and we'll get into some of these next slides with the skeleton canoe and you can just keep tapping that return button. So folks can see that maybe you all you all have questions to ask me. So I don't have to talk so fast about each slide. I'm working in that tiny tempest farm with Blair so skeleton canoe I'm working with a few different collaborators, Kate freer Blair Thomas and Mark Denning, we began conversations and talking about this piece and Blair approached me and really wanting to do a 360 holistic view of an I, you know, really thought about what that would be what it would look like what conversations would happen, you know, going to ask permissions from elders in the community about using specific materials, how to get bark from trees. The pieces called skeleton canoe we're doing an inward progress showing this weekend. There's Blair of course my ally friend they're taking a bow right so it is really you get really intimate and some of these conversations with folks. You know, Blair and I I told Blair I was like you know, if you're not dreaming seven generations ahead, you are not dreaming big enough. Right. And that's a philosophy when we first started chatting that becomes extremely extremely extremely important. We started talking about truth telling liberation nourishment healing, remembering, and of course always to deepen democracy. So I end here with saying what does it look like to challenge present colonial leg legacies and imagine a decolonial futures. Thank you so much everyone, much more to say, reach out if you need. Thank you very much tie. As always, that was very educational and fascinating. And so we will bring in our third final panelist, Margaret camp. Margaret you're muted. Hello, everybody. I just want to thank the festival and my these wonderful, what hopefully one day collaborators that have been talking about their work. Just really, really inspiring. And I would sort of like to tell you the form of this. I'm going to talk, and then we'll see a clip of the bluest I that you'll hear all about my collaborators in the process and upgrading this work, but I do want to start. If you don't mind tie with my paraphrasing you, if you are not dreaming seven generations ahead you're not dreaming big enough. And I think that that was really the impulse for my imagining the bluest I as a work for object performance as particularly I'm very, a lot of I do. I'm two things I'm an artist and I'm an academic I have students that I am feel a sense of responsibility for in their. What does it say here. Boost my sound a little bit. Okay, got you. Can you hear me now. All right. Did you hear the quote I paraphrase tie, you heard that part. Okay, great. So, I just want to say there are two parts of my brain and two parts of the process that we're in creating this work. One is that I, I teach I have students and I'm responsible. I have great deal of responsibility towards them. And I am also an artist and I have great curiosity and longing to create work. Also important to know that I teach at a majority white institution. And, and I come from that kind of training. So these are things that are important. And throughout my training there's always been very little for me to do in the classroom, besides do scene work in class and maybe small roles on occasion. I think that somebody was feeling, especially nice to me. And I think that that is where Jim, Jim Miller talked about care. That is not the way to care for students of color. I think it is. I felt as a strong responsibility that I take to give my students an opportunity to explore work that is culturally specific for them and challenging for them. And this is where this work arises from. I, and, oh, I hope you also heard that I'm show a clip of the work after I talk about it. And we're going to talk about all the way through the process, because we didn't this student, we didn't put on a play. We started reading plays and asking questions. And in the bluest I was just one of many plays that that we read, but this was a play that many people responded to lots of people had questions, and lots of different types of people had questions. I just started to really think about how would a community with just, you know, at the most three African American students, if they wanted to be in it would be in it how could we do that and with a show that required 13 actors. What is a way to do that and as a lot of theater departments are very siloed. And, you know, if you're supposed to teach acting you just teach acting and stay quiet if you're supposed to teach dance you just teach the dance and stay quiet if you're supposed to do the scenic art you just do make the set and and stay quiet. But as an African American creator, I never have that luxury and I don't know many African American creators that do have that luxury to silo themselves so I was very easily and very quickly able to think broadly about how this story could come to the stage. The students started with study, rather than starting with, oh we're going to put on a play. It started with reading the bluest I everybody had a copy of the the novel the bluest I everyone read the original text that Tony Morris, I'm Lydia Diamond adapted before we moved into thinking about it through visual storytelling. And this is a way of thinking about honoring our elders are our lineage as tie and also talk about bringing the lineage into the classroom and I think this is important because a lot of people are saying, we need to change the the the canon, but what I actually think is we need to get under the canon and into the roots of the practice and start the change in that place. I'm not doing that that saying I'm going to bring in the lineage I'm going to say this idea comes from James Baldwin, these, these movements that we're doing I'm thinking about into zaki shangai, continuing to bring in the theatrical legacies and the literary legacies that are as much part of this process as creating the work so going beyond just putting a play on stage. So this little process included some ways of approaching work and taking care, as similar again said that were developed by artists such as ping chong and company. This idea of having a constellation, a place where students can have a language based conversation about the challenges of doing the work. All the time this idea of having a simmering pot in the room things that are troubling them so they're actually writing about the process while they're in the process. And also, when we created the original work, we had weeks and weeks, and actually years and years, where we could have conversations long ones and small ones about race about representation about the fact that there were very few African Americans in the room and students asking, do we have a right to be in this voice. And from that I'd like to actually spend a little time talking about voice, which was the first thing that I knew in the performance was going to be challenging people came to the audition for this work. The performance of blackness, which was really troubling to me. And most people coming to voice the characters with what I call kind of a sonic blackface and being able to just stop the students and ask them to just just say the words in your voice. What moves you why do you want to do this and just be in your voice and let the power of the language make room for others to enter who may not be black people. Allow them to enter so that they're not sort of stopped by sort of a shield of behaviors that are not you. The puppets allowed us to do that to say this is who we are, and we are used engaging with these puppets, and I say as talismans that allow us to help each other to tell this story. While we engage with puppets I feel that there is also a lot of object performance as part of this work. It was our way, Jenny young, who is the designer of the puppets and my co director in this process. Because I was reading the book, and puppets were using these tables I started to started to think about how could these tables be in conversation with the precarity of being black in an urban society, where safety is not guaranteed. While training the puppeteers and saying this sidewalk is a place of safety and then it becomes a place of non safety. How can we engage with actually the scenery and the the props as part of our storytelling as puppeteers and as human beings. The original production had lots of doors all over yet. Picola breed love lives in the storefront. She she doesn't have privacy and reminding the students that that is one of the challenges of being black in America that lack of privacy that lack of safety, anybody can come in at any time and take your life or or take your life. These are very real conversations that we had. And I wanted to talk a little bit about what was a prologue in the piece and is a prologue in the piece. And I'm going to quote Tony Morrison and linear diamond script. The, the world with that we live in. I talk about how it was the fault of the earth, the land, our town. I even think now of the land of the entire country was hostile to merry goals that year. The soil is bad for certain kinds of flowers, certain seeds, it will not nurture certain fruit, it will not bear. And when a land kills of its own volition, we acquiesce and say the victim has no right to live. It's wrong, of course, but the ideas pads the fantasy of our strength and disguises the proximity of our own frailty. And I think that that is the final line of the play, and it really articulates why we're it using puppets this idea of fantasy, and and reality kind of coming into a polarity and brushing up against each other in ways that are some people say shocking. But this is a world that we live in. And asking, can we care. Can we care, both as actors on stage can we hold the place for the black body and with the puppets of flesh based based actor can can hold and make a safe space. In this performance there are moments of silence that we have spent a lot of time saying, can we do this. Can we just make a moment and simply hold picola and and say that we can offer her safety. These are things that were are important to us as creators of this work and continue to continue to try to find out how we can bring that to the narrative. I'm not sure how much time I have, but I will like to show the video is about three minutes, do I have time for that. Okay, thank you. This is Mrs breed love when she has his birth to picola original and our company still is a multi multi racial company. And I, and this is Austin Brown and an Arita MacArthur with Claudia. This is a scene where almost the entire cast is engaged in what has become a very tough scene for us to rehearse it is a scene about humiliation. And in my practice of directing. These are not scenes that we do over and over again. I maybe once, maybe once a week. These are not things that we take lightly in how they impact both the actor in their bodies, as well as their, their mental archive, their spiritual archive, so that they are not to the best of our ability that we are not asking them to continue to perform trauma in a rehearsal process. The next place. And this is another scene with another puppet. Some of our puppets are full body puppets, and some of the puppets are only parts of the body, because we are coming to this play from the point of memory. And this is the archive. And as an individual, if your, your, your flesh is the archive. Sometimes there are details that are missing. So I just want to create credit strongly credit Jenny young in her very careful exploration and questioning of what remains in the memory. Please. And this is Jasmine Washington and again on a Rita Carzel and Jasmine Washington was one of my students when I started the process, I think in her junior year. And we were finally able to bring it into the stage in the senior year. And I actually credit Jasmine. If it hadn't been for Jasmine and the fact that I had faith in her ability to be an actress that we would not have gone. I would not have done it because I had a student who needed an exploration to allow her gifts as an actor to come to full fruition. And next. And this is the articulation of the cola. I did not have an intention of casting three actors in the role of the cola. The first actor I cast is Tiffany new on go who is in the back. And these other actors came to me actually, I recall them coming to my office and putting a fight in for the role, saying that that they were actually a cola and that I had. I had overlooked the fact that they are picola. So this became a while it is a smaller puppet. They be, I asked Jenny, but she was still in South Africa where this conversation with using puppets, if it was possible for us to have three actors voicing the puppet. Within the text, the text is divided among these three actors, and most often not at the end of the thought, but right in the middle of the thought or at the beginning of the thought, because often that's where the impulse to speak or the impulse to move is. And in this way I was able to draw in Tony Morrison's use of music as part of the suicide storytelling, and certainly across the cannon of her work, and wherever I could thinking about what's happening in jazz where so pet church is one of the characters in the blue side but also in jazz. How can we bring in other elements of this cannon that I'm vested in preserving to the stage. Next slide please. Black lives are not all lies. Because it's a Bond club with Stephen Clarkson, you'd be having a very different conversation. Nick and Jane live in the green and white house. Hey Jane, she has a red dress. Who will play with Jane? There was enough love in our household to give a little to Pakola who was sorely in need of someone to care. They are very happy. Crazy fools. My Lord, look at what you did. Mama said you're here because your mama and daddy went at it, and then your daddy burned up your house and now you're outdoors. Claudia! What? It's true. You just stayed away for a minute while Mrs. Brie look you some things on the house. We had heard people talking. Girl, you heard about the green lunch. Lord knows if it's not one thing with bad people, it's another. You cut yourself. Really truly blue. The truly blue. Long journey and I gotta tell you, we've had some bumps in the road, but I also want to say that one of the things that Jenny and I really wanted to model between the two of us, collaborators first across oceans and time, that it's okay to have bumps in the road. And it's both it's okay to be challenged in the moment of creativity and how can we we model for our students. How can we disagree and still create and be respectful of one another in the process. Thank you. Okay, I'll get it to you. Okay, thank you, Margaret. I've got these messages. I am unmuted. Yes. So, at this time, we would like to ask those who are in the zoom room with us to open your cameras so that we can see your lovely faces. And if you have a question, you can use, if you go to the reaction button at the bottom of your screen. At the bottom of that panel, you'll see a raised hand. And I like that. I thought I raised my hand. Yeah, so I like that zoom has finally adapted this so you can choose your skin tone. Okay. And so our tech crew will be looking out for people who have raised their hands. If you are shy, and you do not want to speak your question on camera, you can type it into the chat. Those who are watching on how around there is also a chat box there, where you can input your questions, and they will be fed up the food chain and hopefully get into the discourse. But since the time is short, and our moderators had our panelists had already raised several interesting questions, I want to pose those back to the panelists. So I wanted to start with Tori and Jamaica's question about care. If you could re articulate that and then we'll have Margaret and tie respond, and then we'll go that way. Thank you. First, Jamaica, do you want to. Sure, sure, sure, sure. I think just to reiterate what we were saying, and also, you know, follow up but Margaret also offered to the conversation, just the critical, how critical of an aspect care, centering care, and people over production people before policy, but to really allow people to be in process with all that that means and, and I think a part of our jobs as creative as facilitators of those rooms is to be on top of the ways that we engage that so the labor of like care doesn't all, or how they care for themselves as performers doesn't be on top of them but we also have some handy resources as the artistic leaders in the space to be able to equip and tool people for what we've already sort of been, you know, processing these things in conversation before they get into the room so just be sort of creating these pillars of care around the process it's just so incredibly intricate and deeply connected to how we finish up, and not just in terms of what we present but also I love what you were saying Margaret about that archival memory and so doing doing the least harm. You know, as we can but just how centric care is to to process and not just performance to I think we also engage to take that time for ourselves as creators, so I just want to like to add that on, but to really be thinking about, you know how the work is impacting us and like how engagement is impacting us and so figuring out like what our closing up shop rituals are I think at the end of the night is very important I do this thing where sometimes I just intentionally close my script, instead of leaving it open I feel like if I leave it open like all of those continue to just like inhabit my my space and I'm so I've become very intentional about closing the book at the end of rehearsal, or you know my laptop. You know that so I just wanted those care rituals that we create around the entire process and back to what you were saying tie about that inter interconnectedness of us also how even from creative to tech to production are we really centering people. So it looks like Margaret is ready to respond to that and then we'll take ties response. And Jameka and everyone so I think you mentioned this there's so many of the stories that are available for the stage and for adaptation around the lives and worlds of people of color are are filled with trauma. You know, the last couple of rehearsals I've been reminding the cast that while the bluest I is, there's also, there's not only generational trauma there's also generational love. We can take as much care in crafting making space for making sure that it's clear to the people who are viewing the work, as well as the people who are creating the work. That's a place where they can find some means. Great tie would you like to talk about care it could even be about how you care for yourself. Yeah, well I think that you know centering care is a value if it's an ethic that I work with because I think these are instilled in the values of culture and I think you know, I think keeping at the forefront and every opportunity is who does the work serve right. That's when you are even gathering, you know collaborators you know I, you know I'm working with that Kate freer and also Blair Thomas here on our screen, who is with the Chicago puppet international festival who do not identify as indigenous, and there are folks on the team who do identify as indigenous but you know it's like how do you endeavor to expose and dismantle bigotry and biases in different ways and that to me only comes from the shared leadership, as toxicity that negatively impacts racialized structures, in terms of colonialism and capitalism that everyone is prone to even ourselves as indigenous people are acculturated to colonialism, how what every step of the process. How does this impact the environment, social economical ecosystems that the production is happening right. So there, and that to me can only come about from shared leadership and deepening that democracy because it's decision making right, like what would it be like if there were four directors who are sort of looking at a puppet and how it moves in the space what would it be to have, you know, grandmother auntie sitting in the corner and valuing this cultural knowledge that that can impact the piece and to me, when I think about care, I think about how is one in digitizing and decolonizing time space and resources at all stages of that, because that kind of accountability is vital to the health of a piece so it can have sustainability. Okay, thank you. So, um, let's go to Margaret for the second question open to the panelists. Do you have something you would like to articulate. It's certainly around care. I think I actually think I did that in the in my presentation. I will articulate it. Yeah, you did but we've heard a lot of stuff and so I need a question that everybody can respond to it. Thank you. Um, was it. I'm going to pose. I'm going to answer the question with a question. One of times you will have you, at least with me, you can embed the care into the reversal process, because you have a long time. But what happens when you come to the festival and you have 10 days. And I will say, I'm just going to own it that I thought that the care that we experienced and made room for in the rehearsal process would necessarily carry over. And there seem to be a lot of pressure on the cast sort of expecting and needing the same kind of care. So how will I incorporate that into future times when the process is much smaller to make sure that there's no point. I have very, I always tell students I have very little interest in putting on shows. Right. So it still feels like your community we've cared for each other and in this performance as a result of that, not we're not just, you know, putting on shows because then people think I don't like it, but just put on a show, jazz hands and smiles. Right. Thank you. I don't have the answer for it yet is something I need to work on. Okay, so Tori Jamaica or tie you have a response or thoughts about that. I can respond. Although Jimmy good looks like she's got anyone she wants to say to but I mean I we don't have an answer either is my short answer is that we have tried to move quickly in the past and and have realized that we've had to back pedal. Particularly in our situation where over a long period of time developing work with a specific group of people that we've spent a ton of care and really investigated every scene every moment every word. The puppeteers thoughts and responses to everything. And then we have a puppeteer who leaves because they're going off to do amazing things and we bring in another puppeteer and quickly realize that puppeteer needs all of that background and can't be dropped in quickly. And so we're working on that. Frankly and Jimmy go can can share more but I can just say that we've experienced the downside of not of assuming that it carries from one location to another, or assuming that if we're doing the show and rehearsing for six weeks at home, and then take it to New York and have a week that it's going to be. Okay. And, and we have to be really careful. I think what I'm responding to is actually something that I said, just about how we have to be working to decolonize, you know, out the entire time because I think what we get so caught up in is all of these white supremacist ideas around like what perfection looks like or what finished look looks like and so I think that work actually begins with the creative creative leadership around really, you know, decolonizing and rethink and what we think perfection is right, like who told us that that's what a good play looks like right, who said that, you know, and so I think and honestly I think like really leaning into like African and indigenous and native traditions and rhythms that really allow like deep nurturing and fostering and you know cultivating it's like you plant the thing, and then you take care of it for you to get the thing. And so I think that again just has it that that care again also comes in the form of D reconstructing and decolonizing our own sort of ideas around finished and what the what values we actually that actually matter when it comes to performance like what are we really wanting to the audience to blame that we're masterful like when it comes to like the aesthetics of the thing, or that we've really got connection to like what's going on in humanity. Thank you. So tie did you want to. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I love what you had brought up Jamaica to this idea about regeneration right natural systems that have already existed since time immemorial. This has happened with people who are closest to particular kinds of lands which become really important right that conversation. The idea about remembering, you know, our past but also that kind of futurism where I think that's where you know like native futurism and the African futurism are you know siblings and that kind of way so how is it that every step of the process is beginning to create that radical kind of care when you are saying no to, you know, these tools and models that weren't meant for our cultures right the way that we're operating, valuing things like perfection, and you know thinking time is the biggest colonizer, but right redefining that to think about time as a relative time can be a relative I'm going to like, I'm going to hold time with grace like we're holding technologies with grace, like these kinds of tools and creating those ethical conversations and values around how one is creating work become really important. And that's why I personally really appreciate I can't do it alone right that also as a tool of white supremacy. Right, it's it's like I'm centering the circle, I'm centering community, I'm centering, you know, how amazing to be around minds that are becoming one right that's a philosophy of the Six Nations people, let our minds become one. Right, so that we can do the thing do the work that we needed to create the tool of resistance or the tools of disruption or the tool of interpretation or the tools of joy or liberation. Yeah, and I just like a quick response when you know what I think about like, people's of color like, and especially on from my experience on American lands and as a black as a descendant of slaves. I think it's not radical for me as a black person to imagine rest actually because I dream about it all day every day and I feel like my mother and her mother and her mother and her mother have like constantly like dreamed about leisure in time but just have not had access to it. So I think like, you know, the black and browns and, you know, PLC minds of this world are already sort of like radicalizing like what that, what people are fighting about whether or not there should be these 10 out of 10s be like, it shouldn't because we're already like, you know, fantasizing rest, I think on a daily basis, you know, 400 years like the long time and then we talk about indigenous brothers and sisters, you know, timeless, you know, working until in this land and so yeah. We can imagine it easily. I think that more. Yeah. Okay, great. So Ty, I think you seeded this intervention by asking us to imagine a decolonized future. And I think that the panelists have spoken to that and now we've got the pot bubbling over in live stream. So let's take a question from the our colleagues in the catapult. So who can feed that up. Hi. I'm Jacqueline Wade. I did get a chance to see a Tory and didn't meet Melka. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm pronouncing your name wrong. I got a chance to see a dreaming twice with Cheryl Henson. And what was interesting was I loved it. However, my issue, biggest issue was not the performance, not anything you did. But I sat there one evening I was in the back and audience member was laughing. Okay, and it to me, it was like, it was infuriating. Okay, so I know you can't control how people respond to it. But I felt that there needed to be some kind of audience talk back and maybe because it was COVID or not. But I just felt that the piece was so I don't want to say traumatizing, but it just hit me in so many levels. And then to hear that person laugh like that. You know, and I don't know, you know, why they were laughing. Maybe they thought the images were funny or maybe they were just nervous laughter. And to wonder, you know, how they were carrying the information that was disturbing to me. But otherwise, I love the piece. But I just felt that was something as powerful as what you you're giving people. I felt that you can't just give it to them and then they go home and process it. No, you need to process, they need to process it right then and there after the show. That's it. Yep. Yes. We, the short answer to your question is we were not allowed to do talk backs because of COVID. And we entered into the agreement to do that show with an understanding that a talk back is always a part of our production. And it and we weren't allowed to do that, given COVID at that moment. And, and so that's the that's the short short answer but I can. Jamaica do you want to share it with we heard that laugh. Our performers heard that laugh. We, we also, it was, it was something that we really needed to then have a discussion about and talk about because it was. It was surprising and upsetting to the company as well. I think my response wants to assume no harm and want and wants to like give space to the fact that that could have been a trauma response right like sometimes our bodies like we act to things and ways that don't make sense to other people but because we all sort of hold trauma and harm, you know, in various places I want to just sort of like give space and grace to say potentially it could potentially get up. And we just don't have context around, you know what that laugh is. And then one of the things that I also choice right that we have said, you know, talk backs are an essential part of our process. And I think that we've also sort of in line with that also sort of created this system of how our artists of color, don't sort of get overwhelmed by those talk backs in those moments, right after they come out of performance when people are trying to like unravel their feelings. How can we also be protective over, you know the needs and so towards like, y'all just look at me or flag me down somebody's kind of gotten cornered you know I'll sweep in and also like so so yes to the top backs and I think also we have. I think we've also wanted to be very careful that even though audience is ready to sort of unpack and unlock things that our performers have just come out of a whole hour and body experience with these objects and, and that deserves a little some sensitivity as well. Okay, thank you so on my clock it's 1130. I don't know what how around does or when they cut us off, but can we squeeze in one question from how around. I think we can pull out and first of all just on how around we're hearing so many great reactions to all of the panelists and the work that you've shared today. Thank you so much for that we can't take all the questions, but here is one from Tim. What are some ethically based best best practices when working with puppets that hold or carry a different racial ethnic identity, gender expression, or even species designation than you, the human actor. What are some ways to to work with that. I think I'll start off and if that's okay, call it. One of the things I think it actually starts with before you even pick up the puppet is to create some community agreements for the folks that are doing the performance and community agreements can include things like don't assume identity, making room for apologies and for folks to step back if they've if they've made an error, making space for that. So that's what I'm going to offer that even before you pick up the puppet what are they going to be the agreements for the community of people that are are creating that work. Anyone else. I think I wanted to share is that we found in our process that finding space and actually Margaret I think you mentioned this and in some of of your performance discussing your performance as well is allowing space for the puppeteers to respond to the moment, if needed, as themselves. And that became a great tool for us that in particularly with characters that have ideologies that are that are racist or in this in this case are are one of our puppets, giving voice to the puppeteers as themselves so that they don't feel complicit in the moment or complicit with even the character that they are performing. And that allowed us a little bit of space in in the context of that moment particularly with these ideas although that's separate from the question of identity but allowing that individualism to come through in an open way. Yeah, and I'll just add on to what folks that I really appreciate that not knowing the context of this question, all of the social identity locators, who the collaborators aren't everything. I think it's like, you know, that moment when like a newborn baby or puppy, you like have it, and you have to like do ultimate like extreme radical care. I think to this individual who asked the question would also go out there on a limb and say, Wow, I would just like you need to know the ends the outs of this puppet asking permissions scaffolding conversations maybe even before the puppet appears whatever the I mean, literally going down to that microscopic level because we are at a time where there's so much atrocity, we are not even like post a racial reckoning, it is happening right now, and this is why I'm so grateful for this conversation. I would say, yes, should you feel uncomfortable and sweating and nervous to collaborate on this absolutely 100%. And how can you redefine tension, because actually tension can be a really dynamic wonderful thing. There's also why talking with your collaborators consistently about that really engaging and you're like, Oh, do I have to have this another conversation. Yes, you do. And because of that, the results will be very exemplified and quite wonderful I guarantee, and also saying that you definitely will make mistakes during the way so 100%. Okay, go ahead. One of the things that Tori and I did in the process is just thinking about how symbolism is so important. But, you know, post all the things that you all said and we're having those or simultaneous with all of those deep dive conversations. There was some moments where we, when we, we have, if there were maybe a non personal color on a public of color, we'd have them on the feet and not the here. I think just sort of, you know, thinking about like what the visual imagery of that represents and can become reflective of was also something that I really appreciate I think in the process. I think about like how the person of color is sort of like holding up core, and then the allyship of having to really move and support with just felt like also some really vibrant symbolism to engage and and we found that in performance out of necessity, right, because of you know what we had we had to shorten down our cast is just wanted to add like little small things like that and how impactful this being to be. Okay, thank you. Blair has given me, he said an extra 10 minutes or so so I think we can take one final question from how around so bring it on. Okay, okay here goes this is from Luis in the context of a democracy which is now under attack with the intent of consolidating a kind of dictatorship. This is our work cultivating a sense of agency, and how may it promote participation now and in the future. This is from Luis. Okay. Oh, I, yes. So does anybody want to tackle that head on. I hope maybe helping to shape a sense of agency and artists because we have gotten to this point this place where we are, you know, really intentional about creating space for them to speak up and push back and to challenge. And so I really hope that just like the action and like opening up to that, in a way that we understand this, it really, you know that sort of conflict and rigor only stands to sort of prepare us forward and cause us to sort of branch out and grow a little bit more. We've become much more like open to it and in tune with it and it's all in service to the, to even, you know, larger than the creative process, you know, like what these pieces like have stands to say to the community. You know, I think just being able to just like open up the space for transparency, the folks to come in with their access needs, like I'm a mom and so just like even some of the times where I'm able to work from zoom and my kids, you know that for me, I think that's very I can continue to do this work and like have all of the things that could potentially create barriers but you know, allowing access needs and transparency and pushback and room to be challenged in the space. And I think and I hope is sort of moving the dive forward, even if it's just not a time. Okay. I love that. I'll add on to what Jamaica said. Yes, bring in the real right. I mean, yeah, we are in a global COVID-19 pandemic. What do you remember the time where like not everybody was doing zoom. Right. Right. So I'm saying that because it's really, really important, I think to create opportunities for new practice, right, new practice that is influenced by enriching wisdom right so not forgetting about the past but thinking about all of those things that they can coexist past present and and to continue to revisit and revise your practice and your structure to protect and honor personal and artistic freedoms and access. And this is a value and ethic and it's also why you know I work with all my relations collective fellow collaborators that have engaged in these ethical conversations that I think are so, so important so we'll shout out to the collective there. And I'm definitely thinking about also the lately Markle who said freedom is created outside the box created for us right. So freedom is created outside the box created for us what that just every time I hear that I just think that, you know, a poet, a scholar, a mother, an auntie being auntie vibes right someone that is really was thinking. ahead of their time and pioneering a new way about to view work so how does that translate to some of the works that I'm doing well I think, you know in skeleton canoe for example, we're doing an in progress showing this weekend we've invited the Muckuckers basket makers who never been to the theater like never been to a puppet show before, but who are in great detail so skilled at craft where they don't even use thread, they use the roots of trees to thread things together I mean we're talking like the most amazing individuals that are viewing materials as a relative right so that's just a small example, because I'm examining you know sustainable materials, the world and relationship to earth in this in this particular piece. So that's just one example. And then the other thing I will say is accountability, how are you holding yourself accountable continually right is it a closed rehearsal space we're like, no, no youth, no youth can see this magic that's going to happen here, like everyone must stay outside until Friday. Okay, or are you in an open rehearsal process where anyone can come in and, you know, come see the work and the hands on the work and view it, and obviously wearing, you know, protective wear masks and all of that, doing the coven tests and things as well I feel like there's so much opportunities for this that I think we must decentralize self and open up into that inclusivity circle. What I'll offer is to, and everybody in this room is doing this, but it takes up a level of mindfulness is to honor the lineage, the broad lineage of where your work is coming from, because a lot of African American practices exist in mainstream theater, but because the lineage isn't honored, it's been assigned to another person, which is something that I am personally working to detangle. I don't mean just African Americans but to really get down into it and be broad and on honoring that lineage. Okay, so I think we can close out on honoring lineage. I have to offer an apology here on that specific issue because we have an elder who has been on the howl round stream that is Bruce to say, the son of Ralph to say, is very interested in this conversation. We talked about access needs and zoom can be a bit confusing for elders, we should have taken more care to bring him into this process so that he could have posed his questions. So I give that apology and next year when we organize this we will try to do a better job of including our elders. I wanted to thank everyone for joining us this morning. There is one more session in the Ellen van Volkenberg puppetry series. And it starts just a few minutes from now at noon. Dr. Dacia Posner from Northwestern University will be moderating a discussion between four local graduate students and one recent PhD Dr. DeShay Strauss. So they'll be talking about their cutting edge research on how objects make meaning on stage. Please come out and see the wonderful show, the bluest die and also skeleton canoe. While you have the opportunity here in Chicago. And we will continue the conversation in as many different forms as we can. Thank you. Thank you everyone. Thank you everyone. Thanks Paulette. Thank you. So nice meeting you Margaret and Todd. This is Greg and Paulette as well. Thank you. Yes, thanks for coming. Thank you. Bye bye. Thank you.