 Our final speaker today is Joanna Messer Kimmet, Director of Library Programs and Services at Cabrillo College. She has extensive experience in public and academic library consortium services, personal management, systems and metadata, instruction in both professional development and academic programs and user experience assessment in online and face-to-face environments. Joanna's recent work has focused on textbook affordability, controlled digital lending, instruction-centered management and responses to burnout through organizing efforts in libraries. She is active in ALA's core and ACRL divisions and is current chair for MOBAC's Administrative Council. Today, she will be speaking to us about controlled digital lending for equitable access and lessons learned from implementing CDL. Thank you so much for having me here today to talk about our control digital lending program at Cabrillo College. So control digital lending, how does this work? How do you make this happen for your library? What this presentation is, it's going to be a brief definition and an overview of control digital lending for those of you who may not have heard of this term before. A brief case study of our particular project, practical considerations for decisions about starting up your own CDL program and then some connections and resources for participants who are interested in CDL solutions for your libraries. So what this presentation is not, I am not a lawyer. I cannot give you legal advice about starting a CDL program. Also my library's context as a community college library, part of an overarching system in that way, is not going to be the same as your library's context. Though I do have a lot of experience in public libraries and my mother was a public library director in a small town in Illinois and I grew up around it, your context really is going to be very different from what we are able to do at Cabrillo. But there are a lot of similarities and a lot of partnerships that we can make together. I'm also not a guide to finding funding for your CDL project. I'm a guide to finding funding for mine most of the time. It's also not going to be an overview of current case law because there's a really big lawsuit that is currently pending. How many of you have heard of this? The Internet Archive lawsuit, yes. There have been some very recent developments and some final briefs were filed just over two weeks ago or just under two weeks ago in that case and a motion for summary judgment. Again, I am not a lawyer. I can't explain all of that to you nearly as elegantly as those who are and who are intimately involved in that process. So if you want to learn more, please by all means go out and do so. But I can't guide you through those intricacies. I can only talk about what we did and the standing that we had for our project. So a little bit more about me and about my library. I've been the director of library programs and services and administrative role at Cabrillo College since July of last year. I came from Cal State Dominguez Hills, Gotoros, where I was in the library faculty for four years that's in the South Bay area of Los Angeles and now I'm in the Monterey Bay area up here. So our library, these are some interior shots and exterior shots. Our library is sort of in the center of our campus in Aptos. It is two floors. Most of our materials and spaces are on the first floor. We have a second floor that leads back to our tutoring center. And then we have about 56,000 physical volumes, a small DVD collection and a lot of space for our students to gather and study individually or together. So where are we? Our main campus is in Aptos, which is sort of in the center of Santa Cruz County. And we have another center in Watsonville. It's not a full campus. It's a cluster of buildings right in downtown Watsonville in South County. Around 15,000 students enroll annually from across the area. And we're a single college district. There are no sister campuses, just Cabrillo. We have that dedicated space in Aptos and we share a very small cramped space about half the size of this auditorium for the library and tutoring services and a small computer lab in Watsonville. And like most of you, the demand for and offering of our online services had to expand dramatically during the pandemic in 2020. I wasn't there yet. I was involved with doing the same darn thing in Carson at Cal State Dominguez Hills. And like they and us had a problem where most of our course reserves, those textbooks and other instructional materials were pretty much only available physically. And we could not check them out during our pandemic closure. We were not allowed to be on campus and our students just overnight lost access to the textbooks and other materials like maps and globes that were very important to them. So a little bit more about our students in 2020, calendar year 2020, 47% of our students received some level of financial aid, 47%. In our 2018 real college survey, the real college movement is really awesome. You should look into it if you don't know anything about it. They did a survey for us about our students' situations. 40% said that they had food insecurity in the prior 30 days, 61% said that they had insecure housing in the previous year, and 22% said that they had been homeless in the previous year. Now this is prior to the CZU fire. The CZU fire changed the landscape dramatically for our students who come from mountain communities in the Pajaro Valley. So these numbers have only gone up since that time. And then we additionally had a focus group report from CCEAL where in particular our Latinx students expressed challenges of not being able to afford the required textbooks for class and described it as stressful, therefore causing students to feel unprepared with thoughts of withdrawing from the course. So Cabrillo College is a Hispanic serving institution, meaning that we enroll at a minimum, it's a federal designation at a minimum 20% of our student body is Latinx. Our current number is somewhere around 40% of our student body. So this is a real issue. This is an equity issue. This is an access issue. If students can't get the book, they're not going to take the class. If students are finding that they are spending money on a textbook instead of food, instead of gas, instead of medication, instead of housing. So sometimes I choose to buy course materials over buying food. This should say a lot about the cost of education. It is very frustrating to me that a book I will only use for three months costs me to paychecks. The population least able to afford anything is forced to pay inflated prices for the tools required for a chance to succeed. This is from an affordability survey that my colleague Aloha Sergeant conducted in 2019. Real quotes from real Cabrillo students. So our problem again, coming going back to a problem statement, we shut down because of COVID for 17 months. No textbook access for all of these different materials, blown boxes, globes, all the things that you need to do your work. And then the library licensing problem. I'm sure you're all very familiar with this. There are some titles that you just cannot get in electronic format for love or money, or for a lot more money than what you have available to spend, right? So many of the traditional textbooks, especially, we started to see those prices double, triple overnight. I went to buy a book at my old institution where it had been, I think, $120 for a three-year license, and all of a sudden it was $1,200. Forget it. Forget it. I had to call the faculty member and say, this is what it is, and they didn't believe me. I sent them a screenshot, and they said, okay, can't use that book anymore. So these resources, personnel time and budget for materials are very tight. And then we were really working on establishing equity for our students. So I'm not sure how much you heard about the zero textbook cost and low textbook cost priorities that the California Community Colleges have been tasked to engender. But this is a really big project. In the last budget cycle, the governor allocated $115 million to the community college system to set up ZTC zero textbook cost pathways, at least one degree program. Right now we're in that planning phase. At least one pathway through, general education, major courses, that a student could take that degree path and graduate with an AA. Either an associate degree for transfer or a straight up associates. So each college is working on something right now that in three to four years time there should be at least one pathway through to an associate's degree or to a certificate that has zero cost. They may have to take very specific course sections, but that's something that we're aiming to do. Cabrillo's very close on several, we're mapping right now. And for those of you who are working with people to try to help them register for classes, this little logo down here, that dollar sign with the slash through it, that indicates in a course schedule a zero cost class. So that's something you can use right now to help people identify those kinds of courses. This chart, you may have seen versions of this somewhere else, but this is from the Bureau of Labor Statistics put together by a group that I'm less happy about. But it's a great example, college tuition, see hospital services, then college tuition and fees, and then college textbooks. Look at that inflation line. Because of the pressures of open educational resources and libraries saying enough, enough, we can't do this, and college students saying enough, that has sort of hovered, the price hasn't really grown in three, four years. But it may just do so again. We've got to keep the pressure on to keep textbooks affordable. So one solution that we came to the conclusion that we had to find a solution beyond just buying physical materials, telling people that they were out of luck if we couldn't get the licensing, and that's through control digital lending. So how many of you have heard of control digital lending before? Only a few of you. Okay, so there are three basic principles to how control digital lending works. First, the library must own a legal copy of the physical book, either by purchase or by gift. So I have to have a physical copy of the textbook for Biology One on my shelf in order to loan it out digitally. And I have to maintain a strict owned to loaned ratio at lending no more physical copies than what we legally own. So let's say I have three copies of that biology textbook. I can only have three simultaneous users of the digital file. No more than that. And then I have to use technical measures to ensure that that file cannot be copied or redistributed. So I have to make sure that it can't be downloaded, it can't be printed, and that it stays in its kind of lock box. I can't stop somebody taking a picture on their telephone, but I can keep it from being pulled down in its digital file format as a whole. So think of it like some of the more locked up digital things that you have. We do that with these books. So the way that we did this is that we licensed a software add-on for our integrated library system. The community colleges and actually all of the UCs and Cal States use a program called ALMA, and we bought the digital asset management system called ALMA Digital. It was originally developed to share out digitized archival material, so images and photographs of sculptures and things like that. But like Content DM, for those of you who might be familiar with that. And the settings allow us to keep that strict owned to loan ratio to make sure that people are authenticated, they have to have a Cabrera College card that has access to online materials in order to sign in and access these books. We also built a collaboration with campus partners. So my colleague Aloha, who I mentioned earlier, wrote a faculty and staff grant to secure additional money for the seed of our collection. She received $9,800 from our college foundation. And then in her presentation about what this money would do at a foundation meeting, a benefactor stepped forward and provided another $25,000. That money's almost gone. What we spent buying books. Around 200 titles, many more copies than that. We tried to buy used as much as possible to make it stretch, but it's almost gone. And we've barely, I feel like we've barely made a dent, but I know we've made much more than a dent for our students. So that grant and donation support really helped. The collaboration with campus partners, back to that, we worked with our Accessibility Support Center to borrow their lovely, quick as lightning overhead scanner. After a while, they needed to use it too for their students to support their students. So we then augmented our workforce through grant dollars again, from the COVID education support grants and assigned some student and temporary workers to do a lot of the scanning and remediate those PDF files as much as possible. You can spend days remediating a PDF, particularly one that has a lot of diagrams, mathematical equations, things like that. After a certain point, we end up referring folks back to the Accessibility Support Center to get the deeper support if we can't bring that file all the way up to stuff. There's just not enough time. So things that made this very successful for us, having really committed personnel. The emergency solution that we had come up with at the start of the pandemic was not working. It was not sustainable. It was really time consuming. And we needed to figure out what was going to happen after the emergency situation, the immediate, oh my gosh, all of our classes are online. We can't help people in person. We had to figure out what came after that. There's also a realignment of our institutional priorities. Equity perhaps was not as strong of a focus for our administration prior to COVID. I hate to say it that way, but it was a very different environment. And the faculty as well did not necessarily understand how much their books cost when they were assigning them to their students. They were thinking, this is the pedagogically correct thing. This is what I need. This is what we're going to use. I'm comfortable with this text. It has some great add-on things. Sure, let's have them buy the thing with the Access Code. Well, when the students are coming to them and saying, I can't check this book out from the library anymore, I have to drop your class. And they ask why. And they say, because your textbook is $250, it wakes them up. And it helps them to see the inequity in what they're doing. And we actually have a mandate, legislative mandate, to find the lowest cost materials possible within our academic freedom to assign the items that are pedagogically appropriate for our students. Also, last year, we reopened in the fall of 2021 to reduced hours and many fewer students in person. We still had a majority of our courses online in fall 2021. Yes. I know, time is a weird circle, right? And we did not have nearly as much traffic in the building as we did pre-COVID. So we had a little bit of latency on top of being able to hire for more hours. We didn't need as many people on the desk or in the building being active and out there and making sure people were wearing their masks and all of that stuff. There just weren't as many folks around. We also spent some serious time doing some training and had support for finding the right tools. So we purchased some additional lightweight overhead scanners, just really little book scan cameras. And Aloha spent a lot of time digging deep into the materials and making YouTube videos that were really helpful that walked through from soup to nuts, how to make, how to scan a book, make the PDF accessible, get it to the right resolution for our Alma Digital installation, and make it go. It was really great. Also delegating. Once the workflow was pretty much figured out, we distributed it as quickly as possible so that we could scan as much material as we could and more people knew how to make the system work. So we didn't have a single point of failure or one poor person who was doing all of the things. We couldn't rely on just one human being who had already been pretty close to burnout by this point with all of the demands that were on them through the pandemic. We also have a robust community of practice. While Cabrillo might be the first to go live with control digital lending, we are not the only community college that is working on this. There are several colleges here in the Bay Area that are also beginning to offer online textbooks in this way. And finally data. We're able to get a lot of information about how many students are accessing these items and we're reporting that out. We're reporting that as checkouts to the annual library data survey, which is the analog of your public library survey, to our chancellor's office. We're reporting it to the Association of College and Research Libraries, ECRL, as checkouts, book checkouts, and to our benefactors. Like having some hard data early really helped us with getting that grant donation and that additional benefactor support. So what we would change is probably our timeline. We ramped it up super, super fast. We knew that we did not want to keep doing what we'd been doing for access any longer than the spring 2022 semester. So we moved quickly to get the subscription to Alma Digital up and running and then to get scanning going. And it was a very tiring end of the fall semester over the break into January for our folks. We were putting up books all the way through the spring semester and then summer as well. We had a deadline. We had to spend our grant money on personnel by early May and then we didn't have all of the fall books in time so we had to get other people involved pretty quickly. It was really fast. I'm also concerned about our long-term funding and sustainability since we're almost out of the funds that we secured to start up the program and we have a small budget supplied by our student senate to support textbook purchases more broadly. So now we have not just two locations but three. We have control digital lending. We have our face-to-face services and Aptos and then also our courses to support in Watsonville about 12 miles away. I'd also go back and distribute the labor out at an earlier point because it's still even though we did start to distribute and delegate it was still a lot of work over a very short period of time from one human being too much and I'd like to have spread that out. So that's something to keep in mind is that you do need a project team to get something like this up and running pretty early on. So next steps are setting up a sustainable workflow. Right now we really only have two or three people who are trying to do it. Our students have graduated and moved on and the library is a lot busier so they're on the desk and they're not available to scan and troubleshoot the way they were before. And again that regular source of funding, big issue for everybody for everything but the demand and the checkouts on this is just it's orders of magnitude greater than our physical collection. And then like I said earlier faculty really are wanting to go after zero and low cost resources now. They have really that the pandemic has brought home to them how much this costs. There's an entire department that is nearly finished completion of conversion to zero textbook cost our early childhood education department. Historically the most expensive textbooks or among the most expensive for the people who are earning the least in the end. So they see this as an issue of equity. We have a textbook affordability committee as well that has started up to work on this with folks and help them either find these resources or to find lower cost materials. Some disciplines will never be zero cost. That's okay as long as we can get lower cost we're doing really well. And also continuing to cultivate that relationship with our accessibility support center and making those connections with them and with other professionals across campus and across our community college system and within our community as well. The PDFs are what they are. They're not perfect but they do work for most people. We need to have the good relationships to refer people out who need more support than what we are able to provide. So I have a call to action for all of you. Even if you're not going to set up a control digital lending platform at your library or you don't see how it's really appropriate for your situation just support digital rights of ownership for libraries. We all license these things. Stop renting and start owning as much as you can. It is difficult but I think it's doable. Also learn about your US copyright law and fair use applications and educate your patrons and your boards. This education piece is what got us through to a yes. Talking about what it means to our students. Write letters, be supportive of the folks who are on the front lines and taking the fire for us and be loud on social media about what textbooks cost. You can look it up in the bookstore. There's a connection in most community college course catalogs as well so you can see how much that chemistry textbook I'm picking on the sciences but social sciences are not immune to this either. You can see how much these things cost and talk about textbook broke. Talk about eBook SOS. We need help. Discuss community impact. Who's harmed if we can't get these materials in digital and accessible formats? If you only have a phone and you're trying to look at something is it accessible? Is it visible? If you can't get to the library or you have really crummy wifi, what can you load? What can you get? Also, for those of you who are looking at things like contracts, read those licenses and push back. We have purchasing power, especially consortia that go in together on things. Look at those licenses. Make sure that they work for us and not for the vendor. Look at those terms of service and address poorly written contracts. You can get help with this as well. There are organizations out there that will help you look at contracts if you're looking at things on an individual library basis and you're really not quite sure what you're reading. It's okay, ask for help. Find your friends who are doing this work already. Hi, I'm here. I'm happy to talk about this. There's some questions I'm not gonna answer on camera but there are others that I'm happy to talk about on the phone or other ways because this is a really important topic and a really important issue. And if you can, if you are gonna set up a program, just make sure you check in with somebody. This says talk with counsel to set up your program. That's a recommendation from the folks at Library Futures who run the website controlled digital lending.org. They recommend talking with counsel just to make sure you understand all of the ramifications of what you're up to. I think that's a good idea. But find someone who understands intellectual property. And I would be remiss if I did not call out in specific the people who put this together. I'm the talky person. They're the ones who really did the lion's share of this work. Aloha Sargent researched and found this all-medical platform and brought it to me and to the community colleges. And we're at, I think somewhere around 30 or 40 of the 115, 116 community colleges who are implementing some level of CDL. Kelsey Shapiro and Rebecca Hine are intrepid public services, library technicians, have done so much work to Kelsey in coordinating and understanding what CDL is to explain to people and in coordinating the work of our student colleagues. And Rebecca has picked up most of the scanning now that we're much busier in our physical buildings. And then here are all of our student colleagues. Colleen, Omar, James, Itzel, Lexi, Sam, Jordan, Fiona and Wattee, they answer questions, they scanned, they promote the service. Several of them are on our student senate and are real cheerleaders for us. They're helping me get more money. They're really, our students are our partners in this. They're why we're doing this. We want to support them and we need their support in return. I've included some resources here. I'll make sure that these slides either go out in email or that they're uploaded to the PLP site. But control digital lending by libraries is the main source for a lot of this material. Library Futures puts on great programs and has some really great connections for CDL. I can't recommend Copyright First Responders enough. Kyle Courtney is one of the progenitors of the movement around control digital lending. And this project, Copyright First Responders, this is baby, has anybody heard of them? Yes, I am a Copyright First Responder. I took the training prior to the pandemic. It was one of my last pre-pandemic things. It was one of the best professional development opportunities I've ever had. There's also an implementers group, a lot of academic libraries in here for some really obvious reasons. You got the money, you got the time, generally. They have open forums and some practical support. And then Spark North America. They are one of the groups that might be able to help you with looking at your contracts and understanding what can and cannot happen. So I finished on a little bit on the early side. I don't think anyone will mind. This is my cat, one of them. Her name is Vantablack. She's not that small anymore, but what is a library presentation without a view of a cat? We have a great Instagram channel as well at Cabrillo College Library. You can see a lot of our students in action. And learn more about what we're up to on the other side of the hill. And I have cards too, but my email address is up there. It's missing one of the T's because they only use eight characters in our emails. But are there questions for me about CDL? And please don't be offended if I say, you know what, I'm not comfortable answering that because I am not a lawyer, but I'm happy to answer questions about our program and what you can do, maybe. Hey, thank you. This is kind of like a basic question. Curious if students who are accessing these textbooks, are they able to print certain pages out for like notations? No, they cannot print. And that's one of the pieces of this, right? That you can't duplicate it. You can't, I'm trying to go to, let's see if it will go for me. Cabrillo.edu, slash library. You also have to be, oops, of course, talking and typing, not one of my strong suits here. There we go, library. Yeah, you can't print, you can't download. And that's one of the things that folks have complained to us about, but we're like, but this is a copyright restriction. We're trying to really stay on the right side of the law as much as possible. So I'm gonna go here. So we have need a textbook, and we've set up two different search scopes, one that goes to online and one that goes to print. And we do have some traditionally licensed eBooks as well that are assigned. I'm trying to demo it, is it going? Here we go. So we have it set up by subject area, because that's how students are used to looking for things. So these are all of the different collections. And let's go look at an econ textbook. So intro to macroeconomics. And then here are two different books. And once I click on it, here's what that ends up looking like. We have two physical copies in the back. We literally have like five shelf ranges full of books that are dedicated to control digital lending. If we find that we need to flip one because a student really wants the physical book, and our physical copy that we circulate is checked out, we'll turn off one of these licenses and check out the physical book to the patron so that they're not denied use of that item. But if I sign in here, let's see what this looks like. No, you don't get to keep that. So here you see it's pretty, it's just turned the PDF chapters into a bright line. And then here's the reader itself. So I'm signed in and I can look at the chapters we have scanned. I can close the side mirror, but it's right here. And on a phone, it turns out really well. It scales properly for mobile, it's responsive. And you can return it early. They check out for two hours at a time just to talk about the mechanics behind it. So if I weren't to hit the return early button, it would just run out my time and then check it in for me. So that's what it looks like on the front and the back end has a lot of bells and whistles. So, yeah. So, what can public libraries do to support access better? Oh boy, that's a really huge question. A lot of this is possible because we had the infrastructure and the personnel available for the scanning. And it was really a confluence of great things. I think one of the things you can think about is like those books you can't get anymore on Libby or Overdrive or where they expire after 26 checkouts. That's all very familiar to me unfortunately as well. It doesn't make any sense for that to be what happens. I think looking at some of those titles that you can't get licensed and thinking about what would it look like for us to set up something, some digital asset management system and scan those items and make them available on a checkout basis for people who have cards in my system. It's a lot harder because we have outsourced a lot of that infrastructure honestly. It's way, way harder. If Alma Digital did not exist, we'd be having a really different conversation about what to do. This was available. We pay an additional subscription fee for this software as a service. We have a limit on how many files we can have in there. And I know that in the long term, what I'm hoping this is, is a step toward using more open resources, right? Using more open educational resources, helping faculty, it's supporting faculty in finding things that our students can't afford if they have to buy a textbook in the future. So I think what public libraries can do is support the community colleges and the Cal States and the UCs. Cal States really wanted to do this even pre-pandemic, but were shut down by internal counsel. I said that on tape, great. But it was shut down internally. I'm hoping that they're able to explore more now that more of the community colleges are involved and talking with your patrons about how much these cost, how much these books cost to license, how much more we're paying and what state attorneys general around the country are doing in suing publishers who, you know, I would love to see them as our partners more than they are. I really, really would. And I would hope that they would too, but that's not quite the relationship that we have right now. So advocating for better access, for lower prices, for owning rather than licensing, owning rather than renting. Just really quickly, what, thank you as well. Just really quickly, what overhead scanner did you use? We had one of those little bitty book scan overhead scanners and it's really a very manual process. The other one that we had, we actually, for books where we could, we sliced off the spine and fed it through. And if it was something that was a loose leaf, we just used our copier, honestly, to make the scans and then did a lot of, did some remediation on the back end. Just a chapter at a time, because more than that, and then the files get too large and unwielding and they don't load very well, especially on those mobile devices. Many of our students don't have a laptop or access to decent Wi-Fi, especially in the mountains. So they're dealing with their phone and dealing with campus Wi-Fi, and it's a lot easier if they're smaller. Yeah, so something that can make nice, small file sizes is very helpful. Joanna. Yes. Thank you so much for this. This has been so interesting and pretty radical. I was wondering if you could talk to us briefly just about the statistics, the use, and if you think that those might change as things open back up. Our statistics, I shared a spreadsheet in a MOBAC meeting back in the summer. Our statistics have been through the roof. We're getting checkouts upwards of 10 or 20,000 a week on these textbooks, maybe more. I haven't been following along quite as closely as I should have before coming today, but we have definitely in the first six weeks or the first four weeks of the semester, we exceeded all of our checkouts from spring semester total. Students are finding these, faculty are finding these, and putting the links in their Canvas shells, the learning management system that community colleges use, and they're hitting them, and whether they're in-person or online or a hybrid course, we have seen a real re-engagement with learning materials as a result of having them available online, and we own the book, we still own the book. So if everything goes haywire with this, whatever happens with the decision, which could be a year or more away, we still have the physical books no matter what else happens until someone changes what's assigned, but we do have those materials available for our students, and we do have physical books available for a lot of these courses that students come in and check out, and those have a two-day checkout period, we've lengthened it, and more students are using it. We also dropped all of our fines and fees, so the students are not afraid to come in and check out what they need, and worried that they might get dinged or billed if they keep something a little bit too long. So yeah, it's really staggering how much use we've had. A colleague at a different community college, still here in the Bay Area, said that one book of his had 30,000 checkouts just in the first eight weeks of the semester. Yeah, we're in week eight now, we started back at the end of August. It's been a really popular program, and so very successful, and our students are so, so excited to be able to use their textbooks, because if they couldn't buy it, they just weren't bothering, and were doing the best they could. I'm hoping that we can somehow tie things to student success, and see if there's a better GPA, a better completion, higher grades for the courses that have CDL textbooks available, or open educational resources, as opposed to the more traditional courses where students are buying expensive textbooks and access codes. But that's long-term. Yeah, okay. No, no, okay, go ahead. No, no, yes, I'll ask you off the tube. Okay. Oh. Okay, I wish, I was just gonna ask, have you heard any grumblings or communications from the publishers? Not yet. This is the first time I have spoken publicly about it. Then why do you think that is, oh. Well, partially because this is the first time I've spoken about it, but also because we have it so tightly locked down, and there are, and our vendor, this is, the vendor for our ILS is Ex Libris, and Ex Libris is part of the Clarivate suite of companies, which includes ProQuest. And the Ex Libris is marketing Alma Digital as a control digital lending solution. They see this as a market win for them to be able to do this, even though they have like big publishing on their broader portfolio, excuse me. So there's, they see the use case, they follow the law, and they see where this really is a game changer and a way for them to continue to have some sort of market capture, market share. So I think that both of these things can exist together. And what I'm hoping is that it makes some downward pressure on the licensing so that we can get these books without paying so much money that we just don't have any room to do anything else. My budget would be wiped if I had to buy all these books. Yeah. So I just wanted more clarification so that students get two hours with the textbook. And then it, I'm sure sometimes I could be frustrating for them. Right, right, it's two hours. And then if no one is waiting in line for it, so there's a holds list, so to speak, it's really more of a waiting list than a holds list. So if there's a wait on the item, then their session will expire and they're given warning that that's gonna happen. And if no one's waiting, they can renew it as many times as they like. But we started with four hours and that was too much. We were getting lots of turnaways. And really only two hours is fine for most people because by that point, they don't wanna look at a screen anymore. And if someone really starts to complain, we'll look at an alternate solution or refer them to the Accessibility Support Center because maybe they need more time with it for reasons that they don't wanna disclose to us and that it's not any of our business to know. Okay, thank you. Any other questions? Well, thank you all so much. It was my pleasure to talk about this. Thank you so much, Joanne, I learned a lot. That concludes today's conference. We do kindly ask that you return the plastic sleeves with your name badge just to the box that's located in the back, as well as return any paper surveys that you may have been holding onto that you picked up at the registration desk. The survey is also available as a QR code. And so we do ask, please do fill it out. We really value your feedback and it really helps us with planning for the coming year. As a final note, I would like to thank the committee or the committee would like to thank and acknowledge the Pacific Library Partnership staff and the staff from the San Francisco Public Library for support of this event. That includes the wonderful crew over there who handled our sound and recording. Because of their hard work, the recordings for this conference will be uploaded and available soon. So thank you all so much for attending and spending time with us today. And we hope to see you next year at Future of Libraries 2023.