 Good afternoon, everyone. It is Friday, let's see, February 4th. And our afternoon session is going to be on H628, an act relating to amending a birth certificate to reflect gender identity. And this afternoon, we're going to be hearing from a number of individuals to testify in this. And we welcome you all and members. There are some documents that you'll find on the committee web page. And we were going to start off with Mr. Inglender from the health department, but he is not here right now. So we are going to turn it over to Ms. Churchill. And if you wouldn't mind introducing yourself for the record, and then the floor is all yours, or the screen as it is. Thank you. I'm not quite used to testifying through Zoom, but I'll do the best I can here. For the record, my name is Brendan Churchill, and I am the statehouse liaison for the LGBTQI Alliance of Vermont. And I'm here today to testify on H628. The bill that is finally made it to the statehouse after two years of work of many people. I'll first speak to my involvement since 2020. The genesis of this bill was an inquiry from a person in Oregon who was having, and this is a recap of Representative Taylor's detail from Wednesday. They're having trouble getting their Oregon driver's license because Oregon needed a certificate from the home state, a birth certificate that indicated their gender to be other than M or F. And since we live in a state that only has M or F on birth certificates, they were unable to obtain their driver's license, even though they spent many hours contacting Vermont Department of Health and representatives and very frustrated, finally, worked through the Pride Center and the Pride Center referred it to me. The pain of that individual was palpable, and the work that they were doing was Yeoman's work. And to try to do it from Oregon was really pretty remarkable. You know, I worked on adding a third gender to Vermont driver's licenses and official IDs. And literally, I think we put the cart before the horse on this. I knew at that moment that this individual contacted me, that we needed to change that process to correctly allow Vermonters of all genders to amend their birth certificates. And this can be done right now legally in other states, 12 other states, including the District of Columbia. As efforts gained traction to facilitate the addition of a third gender to our birth records, we had folks in all levels of state government urged us to continue. We had a white paper that was a research that let us understand that we could achieve this through rulemaking. And there was precedent for doing that both in Vermont and other states. We finally were able to gain a meeting with David Englander that was Representative Taylor's help. We determined that we indeed needed that to happen, but it would create an inequity among folks who identify as transgender and non-binary. Current law to change your sex designation on birth certificates. I'm gonna add a disclaimer here. I'm not a lawyer and I'm not studying to be a lawyer. I do wanna say that there's a cost here that has to be considered with regard to doing this work. There are fees to the courts to make document changes. There are fees to doctors and perhaps even a lawyer like I did for my name change. The competent and degree psychologist was also certified at the individual, has been meeting the requirements to live authentically. I actually got a note from my general practitioner and a certified psychologist in order just to change my name. Once that's done, you were allowed to make these changes. The inequity part as explained by Mr. Englander comes from allowing a non-binary person to just ask to do it without the gatekeeping that male to female or female to male transgender folks are required now to do by law. You know, this does have time and expense and besides the obvious inequity in this, there's also a discriminatory part that is often overlooked. Many folks do not possess the means and money to be their authentic self continue. And as a result, they continue to live a closet life, being economically disadvantaged and part of a marginalized community often leads to depression. And if not resolved, people do commit suicide. We discriminate in a way that harms our marginalized communities that cannot achieve their authentic selves. Listening to the questions from representatives in the room on Wednesday, I realized that this bill would be critical to lowering the legislatively imposed barriers that were put in place by well-intentioned legislators not that long ago. These barriers placed a burden on transgender folks that if insurmountable could lead to their harm or kill themselves. These statistics are real and reflected in surveys and the toll on human life. For me, being able to live authentically and be able to move the needle in many ways to prevent unnecessary hurt or loss. This will make Vermont a much safer and better place to live and work for everybody but especially my community. I've looked at the amendments that Mr. Englander has offered and I'm in favor of them. And I would ask you to vote to allow this to go the entire assembly to become law and create equity for Vermonters who wish to become who they wanna be and become their authentic selves. I'm happy to take any questions if there are any. Thank you, Ms. Churchill, appreciate that. And you were very concise and well-planned and I'm just wondering if you have written your testimony if you have, that would be wonderful if you might submit that to Julie Tucker, our committee assistant. I do and I will. Thank you very much. So members, are there any questions? Representative Rosenfels. I wanted to make sure I understood. Are we talking about the bill before us or the amendment that apparently I haven't seen yet? There are amendments on the webpage, on our committee webpage that Mr. Englander who is not here yet, but he will speak to them. What I just heard Ms. Churchill say was that she was in favor of those amendments. Yes. I wanted to make sure. The amendment was just added to our committee page. It's on our committee page. Yes. Thank you. Representative Small. Yes, thank you, Madam Vice Chair and thank you so much Ms. Churchill for your testimony today. I just had a question about the impact of your work previously on driver's license and extending and having a gender X marker available and knowing the impact that it has had on community so far. And if you also have information on how many folks have been able to utilize that resource. Thank you Representative Small, who I continue to work closely with on many different issues and articles. I just wanted to cut up to James for being part of this committee and thankful that he and I have a great dialogue as well. On the driver's licenses, we started an effort to add that third gender to be able to allow people to be identified legally and properly and also to their own needs to have that legal documentation. We now have currently over almost 1,300 people according to the Vermont Department of Motor Vehicles. This has been more successful than I ever imagined and we've never advertised that that is available to Vermonters. So by word of mouth, people have opted for that designation and I am deeply appreciative of the work that we did with former commissioner Robert Ide and current commissioner, Wanda Manoli. We have been able to do that successfully. We got consensus from law enforcement through the law enforcement advisory board and we also gained consensus through the community by talking to all of or at least as many of the LGBTQ organizations that are in Vermont and we were able to achieve that through rulemaking which is indeed what we thought we could do with this bill here but again with Mr. Englander's input and work that he did, we noted the inequity so we actually have to repeal a statute before we move forward with rulemaking and the inevitability of being able to choose a gender marker that most closely fits the individual. Great question, thank you. Thank you. Ms. Churchill, you just sort of opened up a question for me in thinking about this and I'm just curious to know if there have been any efforts to try to do this in a more universal fashion. So honestly, so we don't have to go piece by piece to different applications and different other legal documents and things like that. We see gender listed on many documents and I have become aware of this more recently and I'm just wondering is, I'm not talking about necessarily having to do it with this bill but I'm just wondering if you are aware of any efforts to try to do this in a more universal fashion with Vermont records and applications and the like. I don't think, and thank you very much for the question and I'm glad you're thinking along the same lines that many people are. I do not think that could be achieved in one single bill when you look at all the documents that just the state of Vermont needs to have gendered and you gotta ask yourself the question, why are they gendered? Why is there a designation for male or female on a fishing license? What does that mean and who uses that data and why is that data there? So from an objective standpoint, sometimes we have to do these things in steps because to do them all at once would be extremely cumbersome but now with this we probably could move through and just identify and work on documents by departments and what do they need gender on them for? Why do they have to be that way? I can see how insurance companies might want that when they're using their actuary cables and determining rates of mortality but I'm really not sure that we need to do that in all corners of documents or documenting. So that's a great question. Oh, there has not been an effort to do this all in one fell swoop but it has led us down a path of very thoughtful deliberation and discussion. Thank you. Well, it would seem that honestly by an administrative order that there could, that there's something along the lines of administrative order requiring all departments to review their applications and things like that. So, all right, thank you for answering the question. I feel like there's more work to do, obviously. And I see we're joined by Mr. Englender but I want to, before I turn back to him, I want to check and see if there are other questions from committee members. Okay, thank you very much, Ms. Churchill. Appreciate it and appreciate you sending in your testimony as well. Thank you for allowing me. You're welcome and you're always welcome to be here. Mr. Englender, good afternoon. Thank you for joining us. Yes, we would love to hear your comments. I thought that was so good at reading lips. Yes, one of our members just said we were so good at reading lips now. Good afternoon, Madam Vice Chair and the committee. I apologize for being late. I was having some IT issues. I'm not used to being in the home office. So, let me actually start with what you just raised, which is that with regard to gender being required for all sorts of forms, documentations throughout state government, this is actually an issue that has spoken out both with Representative Small as well with Representative Mulvaney-Stanik that this is a conversation that has begun. We started talking to DFR and Diva and our other partners to say we do need to have this comprehensive look at exactly what was just said, which is we're collecting this information, why? Is it useful? Is it ultimately harmful? Thank you for mentioning that, Mr. Englender. And thank you for taking some leadership with regard to engaging other departments across state government in doing the same. Absolutely. I had planned, I'm sorry. I just wanted you to know that committee members do have your proposed amendments, but we have not reviewed them. So I'm not sure anything else that you're gonna talk about but I just wanted to make sure that you do review those with us. Terrific, I certainly will. My original intention was to have quite a long speech about the critical importance of this, but maybe since we've already jumped into questions, I'll abridge that somewhat. I do wanna say that, first of all, I'm delighted to spend two consecutive Fridays with the House of Human Services, but the department is giddy to bring this proposal before you. This is something that the department feels very passionately about. We've been working on it for some number of years. There was something happened, you may have seen in the news that disrupted some of our normal work throughout the past weeks and years, but this is an absolutely critical issue and it is rare that there is a nexus between government bureaucracy and opportunity for equality and justice and we view this proposal very much in that light. It's useful to know that the Department of Health switched to gender neutral nomenclature for parents approximately 10 years ago, we believe it was 2012. So Bursa gets used to say mother and father and we switched to parent and parent and we worked with hospitals and providers across the state to do that, to reflect remonters needs. And so the department views this as simply an evolution of that. If you'll allow me, I do want to take a moment just to say that there is a sense in the broader narrative about this discussion that this is novel, this idea of third gender or a non-gendered person's novel. And in fact, non-gendered persons, trans persons, persons that are not associated with this binary description had existed since the rise of civilization and that the strict categorization of male or female is analogous to the 19th century race laws which were created for the purposes of institutionalizing racism and bigotry to include and exclude people. So it's important to view this sort of in the broader spectrum of history and how this is consistent with a practice that leads us to a place where government is reflecting the needs of its people and looking to reduce harms in whatever way we can and support obviously equity and transparency. So with that, how would you like to me to proceed? Would you like to, I think Tucker's already walked through the proposal itself and its intentions. Would you like to ask questions or should I walk through the amendments? What would you like me to do next? Yes, Mr. Englander, I think that what I'm hearing from committee members is that they would like you to walk through the amendments. And again, committee members, you can find them on the committee's webpage. So these two amendments are offered by the department in response to questions raised by the committee on Wednesday, but also in conversations with stakeholders over the past few days. I do want to note, the department is working with stakeholders for almost a year at this point on this proposal. As we have maturation in our thoughts, we would come up with new ideas. So I do apologize to the committee for coming to the committee somewhat late with these two offerings. So the first, and this, so I have it up in front of me. The first has to do with making it extraordinarily clear that it is the intention of both the legislature and the department that a third gender be included in a birth certificate. And I think the simplest way to do that left up to your collective wisdom if I can find the language and you'll forgive me. And I'm trying to very, very quickly re-accust myself to the home office and my home office. Of course, I mean- Would you like some help? I'm staying over. Representative McFarland, there is no one in the world I'd rather accept help from than you. Would you like me to have Julie put it up on the screen? Sure, sure. I also, I did manage to find it after only about 20 minutes or so. So- Well, I'm just curious also our committee assistants pointed out that perhaps maybe not everybody who is on the Zoom call can access it. So why don't we go ahead and put it up on the screen? Julie, if you wanna do that or if you wanna make Mr. Englender co-host either way. Yes. While we're doing that. This is a subject that a lot of us don't talk about very much and quite frankly, so or at least, yeah. So there's some wording and definitions which I'm totally unaware of. I mean, that I think I know what some of these things mean. When we talk about binary, non-binary, non-gender, gender-neutral and then the use of multiple pronouns that are pretty call it plural. Okay, they, them, I don't really know what that means. So is there somebody in this group that can explain some of that? Okay, so we can get a better feel for what we're trying to do here. Absolutely, Madam Vice Chair, may I? Absolutely, representative Small. So when we're talking, I think we'll start with non-binary. So understanding that when we are taught about gender we're taught about two options per se. So man and woman and non-binary is saying that it is someone who does not identify with either of those identities that it is outside of it. Dare I feel like David Englander in this moment comparing it to politics in a sense how we're taught about the two-party system and how we have a plethora of third parties available. So non-binary be that plethora of third parties that are out there outside of that two-party system. And then when we're talking about pronouns as you identified very well, it is the most common ones that are used are he, him, his and she, her, hers, and then they, them, theirs. So there are additional pronouns that people may use for themselves. What's the plural one mean? That's a what point? Oh, great question. So they, them, is a non-gendered pronoun. So it doesn't make an assumption about gender when you're using it and can be used in a singular sense and in a plural sense as well. Now when you said, it's a term that David used a minute ago, it's a non-genderer or something I'm trying to think about. That wasn't quite it. Gender neutral. Gender neutral. Gender neutral, I guess. Yeah, it's okay. Yeah, gender neutral. Sometimes people use gender neutral or gender inclusive. Language is just not using specific gender language. So sometimes we think about that in relationship to others. So how we would say that we have a mother and father but we can also use a gender inclusive or gender neutral term such as parents or guardian. Okay, thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. Thank you for asking the question, represent Rosenquist and thank you, represent Small for the response. Mr. Englender, please go ahead. We can see the amendments up here on the screen. So the first one would simply be to add the phrase at the end of the findings that says include, including but not limited to a third non-guarding marker. So what that means is that the legislature is requiring, is imposing a non-discretionary obligation to provide a third gender. So right now we have M and F, we would add a third that might be X, it might be something else following discussions with stakeholders during the rulemaking process. But this provides absolute clarity that it is our collective intent that there be at least a third non-binary, non-binary marker. And the reasons in the findings is just because we always try to minimize what's in the grade books themselves. So this is a clear and unambiguous directive that myself and future Department of Health employees will have to abide by. It's also a clear directive to Elkar, to the legislative committee to measure the rules that this is what is intended by the legislation. Do they have any questions regarding that? Committee members, I can't see. No process, okay. Okay, that's all right. We'll have committee discussion to represent Rosenquist about it. Representative McFawn, I can't see you now. So if you have something to speak up. Sure, I'll do. Okay, thank you. Do you have, Representative Gregoire? Kind of, but I don't know if this is the place. I would just ask, had there been any discussion and we'll forget it for better or worse, not having gender male, female, non-binary, but having the X, Y and X, X designation. And if so, what, I mean, was it even talked about or would it make sense and since it's an identifier? I'm just curious. It had a great question. It's something you hear asked, I talked about for a bit. So I'm just curious if it came up. Yeah, we had an internal discussion about this very thing. I think that that may be the future. As of today, if somebody doesn't have, if we adopted novel, I'm not saying we shouldn't, but if today we adopted novel gender markers, the person choosing those would encounter a whole host of issues interacting with the federal government, whether it be getting a passport or getting a certain kind of federal licenses. So I think that is likely the future, but it's not something that we're seriously considering today. But it's a great question. Representative Small. And if I may add, to go to a chromosomal level, we would have to, everyone would have to participate in genetic testing, which would then have to signify what chromosomes you have. And there is a plethora of chromosomes beyond just XX and XY, recognizing intersex identities, which would go beyond just those two chromosomal designations, we could say. Thank you. And that's a, I'm sorry. And I apologize by the way, Representative Small. That's a much better answer when I heard XX and XY. I was thinking, I was thinking, Please, sometimes. And sometimes I was simply hearing that as neutral markers, I would agree with you entirely about we don't want to be going by chromosomes. And I was thinking about something entirely neutral, like you and Omega and Epsilon. Okay. So let's review your second proposed amendment. The second proposal, this is the proposal that, the bill is proposed by the department eliminated the language about confidentiality because it was our intention to put it into the rule itself. But given questions raised by the committee, the department offers this as a new subsection D, except it's otherwise required by law. And here we're talking about like a court order. Chains of birth certificates made under this chapter shall be confidential and shall be exempt from public inspection and copying under the Public Records Act. And this just makes it absolutely clear to any person without that they see the clear intention of the legislature is not that these protections be eliminated, but in fact, they're reinforced. Right. And Representative McFawn, I'm going to call on you, even though your hand might not be raised just because I know this was an issue that you raised when we were speaking about this earlier. Does this language, this language meet the questions that you had, address the questions that you had earlier in the week? Yeah, yeah, it does accept that when it was explained that the only way you could get a copy of the birth certificate was by a court order. Did you say that, Ms. Sanglin? That's the reference to accept is otherwise provided by law. Oh, okay. Well, I want to make sure that, because I had some trouble getting my birth certificate years ago. I want to make sure that the person can get it. I want to make sure that a guardian or a parent can get it because there's lots of reasons why they need to do that, insurance purposes, all kinds of things. This provision does not disturb the eligible parties as we discussed. That are already listed. Yes. Okay. My other question is, so if, let's say this amendment went through and we decided that X was the marker for non-binary. That would mean we would have FMX as the markers. On the birth certificate? Yes. Yeah. Okay. Yep. That solves my problems. Okay. Thank you, representative. Oh, yeah. I don't mean problems, but it's... Oh, I see this issue. Okay. This issue. I'll just make a quick review of it. Let's try to get this person home. Let's try to get this person home. Mr. Englinder, you know. Okay. Representative Spal. Thank you, Madam Vice-Chair. Mr. Englinder, can you illuminate for us the current process? So if I were to amend my birth certificate and say a public records was wanting to get a previous version of my birth certificate that was not amended, would the general public be able to access that today? No. And we no longer have amended and previous iterations. It had the designation amended on it and that would no longer be present on birth certificates that were amended. Correct? That's correct. There is no indicia of an amendment. Wonderful. Thank you. Are there any other questions for Mr. Englinder? Yes. Representative Rosenquist. Maybe I haven't read it correctly. But if somebody had conversion surgery to change their marker, okay. Would they have to provide proof that that surgery had been performed or not? So the way the law stands today, and again, I'm sorry if you covered this earlier, the one of the complexities, the thing that gave rise, I promised Representative Rosenquist, I'm gonna answer your question. It's coming. So the answer, actually, let me answer your question. The answer is no. What gave rise to this proposal is persons who came to us and said, we would like to change our gender marker and birth certificate to X. And you can do that through rulemaking. And the concern of the department is under current law, under 18 VSA 51512, a person has to go through either medical, psychological, they have to take steps whereby a doctor makes a fine that that person has transitioned from male to female or female to male. By allowing somebody by checking a box to be gender X, you would have created an inequity in the law that somebody who wanted to go from M to F would have to go through hoops of the kind you're describing, Representative Rosenquist, but somebody who wanted to be non-binary wouldn't. So the reason that we proposed that the Department of Health rulemaking create one simple equitable system that would rely on self-attestation and not a court order or the writings of a physician. Thank you. Yeah, Representative Bromstad. Thank you. So that just made me question, it's just one quick question. So if it's self-attestation. Attestation. Does that, so that means that if you are parents who have a child in the hospital and you're filling out the birth certificate, can you choose the non-binary for your child if you would like to? So that's something that we've discussed with the advocates and internally, that's a question that will be answered during the rulemaking process. We have not come to a, I don't think there's a, there isn't a consensus yet about how we should proceed. So the answer is maybe. Okay. To be determined. Okay, thank you. Yes, Representative Garifano. Thank you Madam Vice-Chair. Mr. Inglender, can you talk a little bit about how this applies to minors? So under 18, will there have to be a parent permission to select the X marker or can a minor choose their own marker? So that also will be decided through the rulemaking process. The Department of Health is open to all. So to be decided that we're open to all possibilities. I mean, I would say this, it certainly would not be in my individual opinion. This is just us, right? In my first- So the world. I imagine if there's any, if there's an age limitation, it would be fairly low. Making a teenager have to go to a parent to co-sign would not be something, would be inconsistent, frankly, with Vermont law in the way that we treat minors who are seeking other kinds of treatment. And, and, and. Thank you. Mr. Whitman, Representative Whitman. Thank you Madam Vice-Chair. And I apologize for bringing this question a little bit late in the process, but it came to me yesterday evening. It's kind of a bit of a bigger picture question around the bill. And I guess it's like, assuming, you know, in decades from now, if there were a less than ideal scenario where the political landscape of the Department of Health were to change and become less gender inclusive, would this rulemaking authority allow them to reverse some of the changes that we might see are the stated intention of this bill, but is it within statute? Is that question directed towards me, Representative Whitman, or? I would say yes, just based on what is within the bill itself. And I suppose if Representative Small wants to speak to this at all, I'd also welcome that. I would also say that I think that the, the first amendment that Mr. Englander spoke of is clear about legislative intent and is a reason that we, in the thought process, moved that from rulemaking, which is more easily changed, so we say, to legislation that identifies clear legislative intent. Would that be along the lines you were thinking, Mr. Englander? Yes, that is exactly it, Representative Whitman. Is that help? I think it does satisfy, yeah, thank you. Representative Small? Oh, that's right, I wonder, go first. So I just, I'm not sure if everybody around the room is familiar with the rulemaking process and that the last stop or the penultimate stop on the rulemaking process is agencies must appear before a joint committee of senators and representatives and one of their two primary roles is to look at the legislation and to look at what's being proposed to assure compliance with that. They also reach out to the, the chairs of the committees of jurisdiction and say, is this, do you agree this is consistent with legislative intent? And Elkar takes that duty very, very seriously. Thank you, Representative Small. Oh, Mr. Englander took the words right out of my mouth. Awesome. Perfect. Okay. Thank you. All right, are there any other questions for Mr. Englander? Thank you so much for being here today and thank you for these proposed amendments. Yes, Representative Rosenberg. I'm sorry, if he's leaving, I just wanted to. Well, I'm not sure he's leaving, but are you going to be sticking around? I'm not. All right. Yeah, yeah, that's absolutely sure. You know, this is a vital record, a person to me, because that's basically what we're talking about here. I guess there are other documents included. But I look at, you know, what is the purpose of the first specific to begin with when people take census figures, let's say every 10 years we do a census, you know? So we're going to have, and it would appear to me, we're going to have a disparity between the scientific definition of what male and female are or other things versus this document. In other words, understand what I'm saying they're going to be, and let's say there are distribution of benefits that are based on one of these items, like women are getting a bigger benefit than men or something. You know, how are we going to determine that? The document that we've always wanted was a birth certificate that is based on the scientific information that's a male or a female or what have, understand what I'm saying? And now we're going to, these documents will not be able to provide that information. Mr. Englund, do you want to take a gander at that? Sure, I would say that the, I would say that the idea that there is, that there's a scientific determination of somebody's gender is itself somewhat complicated. When somebody's gender is assigned at birth, it is one person using their subjective judgment looking at one datum about a person. It is not their personhood. You know, a plumbing isn't destiny. The birth certificate should represent who the person is in their whole part to the extent that that is useful to them and to the government. But the idea that there's going to be a disparity, people make choices throughout their life. They find out who they are, they take different jobs they have. I used to just be, you know, Englund or now I'm Englund or Esquire, which is, you know, takes my parents very, very happy. So I think that, I think that allowing this better reflects who the person is and that person isn't confined to this one very small thing that, you know, there's a very high level of, we know, of uncertainty at a certain moment in their life. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, David. Okay. I think that we have wrapped up questions for you at least right at this particular moment. Mr. Englund, thank you so much for being here. And it would be great if you're able to stay on, to listen to the other witnesses and in case there are questions as we move along. Is that possible? I'll be, absolutely. I'll be right here. Okay, thank you. Yes. I'll be right back. Okay, thank you. Okay, Emily, Emily Russo, the transgender program coordinator at the Pride Center of Vermont. Welcome. Welcome to our committee room. And if you could say your name for the record and then we turn the floor over to you. Yes, thank you for the record. My name is Emily Russo. My pronouns are they, them, theirs. I'm the transgender program coordinator for the Pride Center of Vermont. Thank you for having me here today. I'm here in support of H628. I would like to start by relaying some data on discrimination faced by the trans and gender non-conforming community. This will just help give an idea of why it's so important to create equitable systems for trans and gender non-conforming folks in our communities. According to a study done by the Williams Institute, the trans community experiences violence at four times the rate as their cisgender counterparts. Trans people and specifically trans women of color have increasingly been fatally victimized over the years. And 2020 was one of the deadliest years for trans and gender non-conforming people. In addition to crimes of victimization, the trans community also faces staggeringly high rates of attempted suicide. Research conducted by the American Academy of Pediatrics reported alarming levels of attempted suicide among transgender youth, finding the highest rates are among transgender boys and non-binary youth specifically. In a study published by the Williams Institute on suicide attempts among the transgender and gender non-conforming adults, 41% of trans and gender non-conforming adults report a suicide attempt in their lifetime, which vastly exceeds the 4.6% of the overall US population. H628 would allow transgender and gender non-conforming folks to have their gender identity reflected across identification documents. This will help mitigate discrimination that's experienced by trans and gender non-conforming folks attempting to change legal documents to affirm their identity. A lot of the assistance I provide in my role to the trans community is changing documents to reflect name and or gender markers. This process can be long and really frustrating, which can impact the mental wellbeing of an individual. So allowing trans and gender non-conforming individuals to amend their vital records to accurately reflect and affirm their identity through a simplified process will go a long way toward creating a more equitable system for the trans and gender non-conforming communities. Working to remove as many barriers as possible for trans and gender non-conforming folks to live authentically reduces harm to our community. And I'm also in support of Mr. Englender's proposed amendments, which I have read over and we just discussed. So thank you so much for your time. If you have any questions for me. Well, you took one of the questions Emily right out of my mouth when I was just gonna ask you about what you thought about the amendments proposed by the health department. So thank you, thank you for answering that question. Open it up for questions from committee members. Any questions that you might have for Emily? I have one, Madam Vice Chair. Yes, thank you. Go ahead, Representative McFawn. One of the things that I would like some kind of an explanation of so that people understand a bit better. One of the statements that's made is by having this birth certificate situation changed that one of the reasons for doing the change is to cut down on the discrimination and violence towards people. Can you talk a little bit about that? How is this birth certificate going to do that? Yeah, absolutely. The change in the birth certificate? Yeah, so I think in many ways your legal documents reflect your gender identity is a safety matter for a lot of folks. So being able to use your legal documents when you're changing anything where you need or when you're needed to provide these documents if there's a discrepancy between one document and another document that could lead to your being outed as transgender non-conforming and that can have repercussions of violence or harassment. So I think having the ability to have your records consistent and affirming of your gender identity is very important for safety in situations like that. Does that answer your question? Probably it does, yes, yeah. It was a very good example of one. Thank you. Thank you, Representative McFawn. And Representative Small. Thank you, Madam Vice-Chair. And thank you, Emily, for being here today. I will just acknowledge that, of course, we do share a workplace outside of legislative times. And so I'm wondering if you could illuminate for the committee what the main barriers are for folks who are trying to amend their birth certificate, the challenges that you see folks running into in that U.S. system with? Yes, absolutely. So when I work with folks in the community who are changing their documents to reflect a lot of times, especially, so the DMV process is fairly straightforward and in changing that gender marker to X. But as it stands right now, when folks go to change their birth certificate or passports or other documents, the process is a bit more challenging. And based on what documents you need to, and I'm just pulling up my little thing that I usually go to when I'm working with folks to see what exact, those exact documents are. But when amending your birth certificate, you need, sorry. So right now as it stands, you need an application for the new birth certificate and a court order certifying your name change. And then if there are some discrepancies and they don't match, it definitely makes the process harder. So I'm kind of losing my train of thought. And I feel like I'm not answering your question very well, but yes. We can check in again if you need to. That's good, it's all good, it's all good. One of the things that I noticed when you were testifying Emily is that you had some really important information that you were sharing. And I was just wondering if you would be willing to send that to our committee assistant, Julie Tucker, so that we can post it for the record. Yes, absolutely. Okay. And we are joined by our chair now. So I just wanna check in with people to see if there are any other questions for Emily and if not, we'll move on to the next witness. Yes, Representative Rosenquist. Yes, thank you very much Emily, but it would seem that one of the reasons for this change or this, what do you wanna call it? Working with the birth certificate and keeping it confidential. It would seem that it's sort of counterproductive to the fact that people might think that the birth certificate would lead to them being ostracized over the hospital. I should have said, why would they want something showing non-binary if they think that would cause retaliation? I guess that's what I'm asking. We're saying we're gonna keep this birth certificate confidential because of the fact that somebody might be out of it, I guess is what the term was, okay? Based on that. So why would you want it on your birth certificate at all? I guess that's where I'm a little confused as to where you want an identity marker, but you're also concerned that the identity marker may cause retaliation, okay? Yeah, I think visibility and representation is super important in identity, but it also should be self-disclosed. So you should be able to, if you choose, disclose your gender identity and have that reflected in your documents. So it's more about validation of having your identity recognized on documents and consistent across the board. And then hopefully, I mean, we get to a place where systems are non-discriminating against non-binary identities or gender non-conforming identities. And, but I think it should be up to the individual to have the ability and system in place that they can have their identity reflected on their documents. Thank you. Thank you, thank you, Emily. Appreciate very much your testimony today and your answers to our questions. Thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. Thank you and I, I guess I want to say at the outset, I regret that I was not here at the beginning of your testimony and I will review the YouTube link. The world of the legislature means sometimes you have to be in three places at once. And this was one of those times. And so I do apologize. It does not reflect my interest in moving this bill forward. Our last witness that we have is Dana Kaplan. And Dana, I understand that you brought some youth with you. And so, hi, have they already entered? No, I was just gonna say. Okay, so I want to, I guess turn it over to you. In terms of how you want to incorporate the youth in their testimony. And this is what happens when I come in late. Do they know who they're talking to? Yes, we've done that. Okay, all right. I followed your lead, Madam Chair. And I'm Anne Pugh. Great. So for the record, can folks hear me okay? Yes. So for the record, my name is Dana Kaplan. I use he and him pronouns and I am the executive director of outright Vermont. And it is true as a youth facing organization working in service to remove barriers that youth may be facing. It feels really, really important for us to make sure that youth have the opportunity to speak for themselves and their experiences. So I do have some remarks prepared. I will share those, but I want to first turn it over to a couple of folks who are deeply involved in outright's work and they are going to share testimony. So Charlie, you go ahead, you're going first if you wanna just introduce yourself and then Sawyer will speak and then Catherine will speak and then I will close us out. All right. Hello. Do I have to do like the for the record thing? Yeah. For the record, I am Charlie McCaffrey and I'm 16, I use they, them pronouns and work with outright Vermont as a youth organizer. I know that they're on YouTube. Oh, good. Charlie, you went mute. Can't hear you. Now it's frozen. Oh, are we frozen? Oh, oh no. You're back now. You're back now. Okay. All right. Why don't we just start from the top and Charlie, if it makes you feel any better this happens about once an hour. All right, thank you. My transition has been one that has gifted me many experiences, both good and bad that have shaped me into the person I am today. While it's far from over, this bill grants the ability for trans people to have like a more seamless experience when getting their gender identity recognized legally in the state. As you probably know, a person's journey into discovering themselves. It's frozen again. Charlie, if you can hear us, I wouldn't, in my vast knowledge of IT, I would suggest you turn your picture off and that sometimes helps. Dana, if you have a way. Yeah, I do. I just sent them a text. I think maybe they're going to, yeah, they're going to come back in and if I guess let's just give it 30 seconds and we'll ask them to start again with their camera off and go from there. We do have all of the testimony written down. So if for some reason they can't get back on, we can just submit it and or somebody can read it for them. In the meantime, where do you want to go? It looks like Charlie is back on without their picture. Charlie. Okay, amazing. You unmute yourself. Hello, yes I can. My, the computer that I was on died. Like it just crapped out right there. Wait, I'm so sorry. What do you want me to like start again? Or should I wait for someone else to go? You're fresh. Okay, thank you. I'm so sorry. Um, I'm, I'm Charlie, I guess. My transition has gifted me with many experiences, both good and bad that has shaped me into the person I am today. This bill grants, oh, well, this is far from over. This bill grants the ability for trans people to have a more seamless experience when trying to get their gender identity recognized legally in the state. A person's journey into discovering themselves and their identity is an often a long road that we never really see the end of. And for the trans community, that is especially true. I realized I was 12 when I was around 12 years old and it was a process that put my mind and body against one another. I knew something was wrong, but I didn't have the words or the language to begin explaining what I was feeling to the world around me. And when I found those words and came out, I spent the next few years trying hard to prove to the world and to my family that who I was is real. And having to expose yourself, that part of yourself that is deeply personal to satisfy someone else's ideas of who you are is an exhausting process. And it's one that nearly cost me my life. And I know I'm not alone in dealing with stuff like that. And what I wanted to ask is, so why are we asking trans people once again to bear themselves to the state and to be judged on if their experience in their person are worthy of being recognized and respected by the state? The difficulty of getting your information changed is putting countless trans people at the risk of being outed and exposed to violence, which is why for me and many of my trans peers, getting our information changed legally is like such a big milestone. This bill will allow trans people to get their information changed sooner and without harm so that we can rest assured that they're being accurately represented to places like their school, like work and doctors, there's no doubt in my mind at least that this bill will save lives if it's passed and put not only the current generation of trans people at ease, but also hopefully improve the quality of life of the trans community of the future as we can hope to not lose as many bright minds as we do today because of the difficulties that they may face. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you very much, Charlie, that we were able to hear this, hear your statements as one and in their totality. If I might suggest have the other two youth advocates speak and then if we have a few ending comments that would be wrap us up for today. Great, so Sawyer and then Catherine and then I will end up. Good afternoon. My name is Sawyer Totten. I'm 18 years old. I am a transgender. I identify as a transgender male. I'm also a former legislative page and I have been through the experience of legally changing my name and gender, which in total cost my family about $200. It was 150 for the name change and $50 for the gender change through the court and we had to pay that through the court. We only spent about $10 to get a certified copy of my birth certificate from the city clerk's office. And to change my gender, I had to provide evidence to the court from my doctors and to basically prove that I am transitioning, which shouldn't be the case. I mean, you shouldn't have to prove your transition. You shouldn't have to give evidence beyond your personal experience and who you know you are to be able to change your gender on your birth certificate. And I think it is going to be a very important, if passed, it will be a very important thing for lots of trans youth as well, to be able to change their gender without going through the courts because on top of going through the court, you have to appear in front of the judge and the judge asks you a few questions before granting the name change, but you do have to appear in front of the judge and give over the evidence and just very clearly state why you're changing your gender, which can be very intimidating for some people to have to appear in front of a judge to be able to change their name and gender and also being able to have an option besides male and female is very important because there are so many people who do not fit into the binary of male and female and being able to on their birth certificate and on legal documents and on driver's license and everything be able to identify as non-binary or not male and female is very important and very validating. And it shouldn't be up to anyone, but the person petitioning for a legal gender change to make the choice and it should just be between the vital records and that person. Thank you. Thank you very much, Sawyer. Catherine. Hi, my name is Catherine Thomas. I use she, her and they, them pronouns, preferably they, them. I am 18 years old and I will be graduating from Twin Valley Middle High School this year. I work as a youth organizer outright Vermont. I'm eager to speak to you all about Bill H628. Passing this bill would change so many lives for the better. Transphobia is rampant globally and Vermont is no exception. Every day transgender people risk their lives to express themselves. In 2019, Vermont had one of the highest rates of bias motivated incidents against the LGBT community in the country. This is unacceptable. I hear slurs thrown at my trans peers every single day, whether in the classroom or on the street. If these children could change their birth certificate to help ease the obstacles that they face, they may have a better chance at a normal school career. According to the 2019 YRBS survey data, LGBTQIA plus high school students were more than two times as likely to be threatened with a weapon on school property. These are young people. They deserve to be protected. And it is the responsibility of the legislature to protect them. If this bill is not passed, I have no doubt in my mind, my peers will continue to be singled out and discriminated against due to their sex assigned to birth. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks, Catherine. Do we have a few minutes for me to read my testimony? Okay. We certainly do. Yes. Do you wanna pause and ask folks questions now or do you wanna for me to go and then sort of open it up to our crew? Please go ahead. Okay, great. Great. So as I said, my name is Dana Kaplan. I'm the executive director of outright Vermont. Outright is Vermont's LGBTQ youth organization helping what's estimated to be about 14% of our state's youth find hope in a world that hasn't yet caught up with their lived realities and basic needs. And I say that hasn't yet caught up with, specifically sort of in response to the question of if it's so dangerous to have a gender marker that is X, why would you want to do that? And I think that this is really about an opportunity to change systems and structures that are just outdated. The majority of youth who we work with at outright Vermont at this point use they, them pronouns and identify somewhere outside of a gender binary. This is just where we are in 2022. As it's been stated, having a legal document that reflects your identity has far reaching impacts on every aspect of a young person's life. Proven social and medical benefits include but are not limited to fewer suicide attempts, ideation and depressive symptoms. Make no mistake about it, having to navigate the incongruence of such basic and powerful documents can often be outright dangerous. Adding fuel to already unconscionable levels of ignorance, bias and discrimination that a person just trying to live their authentic life and happens not to be cisgender can face. Yes, even in Vermont, this is true. We're in a youth recently shared a story with me about how they were refused care at the emergency room when the doctor realized they were transgender. The research is clear, the risk youth face is outsized and the support needed to mitigate that risk must affirm and celebrate all of our beautiful and unique selves. We cannot stand by when 50% of these young people purposefully hurt themselves in the last month. In the past year, 36% made a suicide plan and one in five attempted suicide. Those are YRBS data points gathered. So this is Vermont before the devastating and compounding impacts that overworked systems and widespread disconnection has created from this global pandemic. We can look back at history to see the ways that inclusive social policies laws like marriage equality have directly link to decreases in youth suicide, passing this pivotal legislation is not just the right thing to do, it's basic survival, identity validation does save lives. Seeing ourselves accurately reflected on the very documents that literally prove our existence matter. Birth certificates are so common that many of us overlook their significance until we need to use them. We're in there necessary to obtain a social security number, apply for a passport, enroll in school, get a driver's license, gain employment or apply for other benefits. Desmond Tutu said it best describing the birth certificate as a small paper that actually establishes who you are and gives access to the rights, privileges and obligations of citizenship. Minority stress model helps us frame the disparities among marginalized communities, noting that poor health outcomes are caused not by being who you are, but as a result of the relentless struggle that comes from having to navigate the prejudice and harm embedded in these very systems and structures that we depend on. It is hard being a young person in the best of circumstances and these days, well, we are far cry from anything resembling ideal. I implore you to take very opportunity that you have as change makers with this bill and any others for that matter that could in some way large or small rectify the very real lived impact of ignorance, hate and harassment on a policy level. This is simply about giving some of our most targeted and vulnerable Vermonters the chance to live full lives, lives that start and depend on the most basic of legal documents to affirm our identities. The stakes are too high not to get this one right. The time to do so is now in a recent study of Massachusetts and Rhode Island residents who happen to be trans. Those who had access to legal gender marker and name change had lower negative emotional responses to gender-based mistreatment and improved mental health outcomes. For many trans and gender diverse folks, an important process of social gender affirmation is pursuing legal gender affirmation by updating one's legal name and or gender marker on identification documents. Possessing an accurate government ID is often necessary to access healthcare, housing, education and employment, the resources from which trans people continue to be excluded and marginalized. We use this opportunity to create ease and access where we can in a world where so much is beyond our control. It's incumbent upon us to take action where we can. We must acknowledge that the current process for changing gender marker is confusing and somewhat convoluted, which is the last thing that young people need. We do appreciate that the Department of Health has indicated support for this change and we do request that you include specificity regarding the protection of privacy in amending these documents. Happy to see that new language included. We must make the legislative intent clear that privacy protections are critical and non-negotiable. We have recognized the need for a third option on driver's license. We must follow suit with birth certificates, making the language clear and explicit to ensure that Department of Health shall not may adopt rules to add more options to gender markers. Many states have not yet modernized their policy or process, making it significantly challenging, but it's 2022 and we are Vermont. Let's get out in front like the leaders we are. Rules that meet a minimum standard for the wellbeing of our most marginalized community members are the rules that we need. Increasing structural support for trans individuals, including enactment of state policies, ease legal gender affirmation, that ease legal gender affirmation is a move that we can make today. The bottom line is that we all want to live a life congruent with who we know ourselves to be. When you see windows and mirrors that reflect possibilities for your future self and current versions of who you are and the people around you, that is life changing. I thank you for your clear, bold action to support policies and provisions that give the people most affected by systemic failures a chance to live. Thank you. Thank you. This has been a very full afternoon. Brenda, I see that you are raising your hand. I am, if that was waving goodbye, we are going to be wrapping up and I believe you testified earlier. I did. Thank you, Madam Chairman. I was just congratulating Dana on outstanding testimony and I wanna support him. Thank you. Thank you. Before we wrap up for this afternoon, one, I hope folks understand that we will not be taking a vote today. We are taking this bill up again next week and I understand there were amendments and other things offered, so we will have more discussion on this. But before we close, I wanna know from the committee, besides my comment that Dana, while your testimony was wonderful and I agree with Brenda and very thoughtful for myself, I'm going to, I wanna call out Charlie and Catherine and Sawyer and it is so important that we hear from youth and that youth become engaged in whatever the issue is, but in particular, this issue as it relates to who they are and who they are becoming and your voices have been very impactful and very important and very articulate and you could perhaps give some lessons to some other people on how to testify. But that's my comment. I wanna really find out from the committee if you have questions or you wanna say anything to the youth. The only thing that I would say is that if you are willing to submit your comments so that we are able to have them for the formal record when other people can refer back to them, as Chair Pugh said, they were very impactful and it'd be helpful to be able to look back at them if you are willing to submit them to our committee assistant. And I will add, thank you Dana for bringing in these phenomenal youth and to all of you, it is such a vulnerable act to share your stories, to share your stories not only with our committee, but knowing that this is going out live on YouTube. I am so grateful for your representation and for your stories and moving forward this legislation. And of course a shout out to Soyer for your continued work in the legislature and coming back after being a page. We look forward to a future with you in the State House once again. Thank you. Thank you. And I think this ends the committee's testimony for today on the bill H628 and it will end our committee meeting and I committee, I think we get a prize. I believe we're the last committee in the building. And so please.