 Welcome to the Monday, October 17th, 2022 meeting of the Mypealier Design Review Committee. We'll let members and staff introduce themselves. Eric Gilbertson member. Benjamin Sheen member. Meredith Crandall, staff. Steven Everett, member. And can we hear? Liz isn't, Liz is going off, she's going to try and log in over the phone. Sonyway, Liz is here remotely. Hopefully. Liz Pritchard, so we can go ahead and start the meeting by letting Meredith review the remote meeting procedures. Okay, so I'm going to share my screen here. DJ and Eric, this is the shared screen part is really more for people who are watching this meeting over Orca Media because it's live streamed. There will be some information for you as well, but the actual what's on the screen isn't so much for you. Alrighty. So for anyone that is viewing this meeting via Orca Media, you can participate in tonight's design review committee meeting via the Zoom platform. You can either paste this or type this web link into your browser or you can call in using this phone number and this meeting ID. If you have any problems accessing the meeting, please email me at mcrandall at montpillier-org. I will be monitoring my email throughout the meeting. For those attending via Zoom, turning your video on is optional. For everyone attending, please keep your microphone on mute. If you're not speaking, this will reduce background noise and please reserve the Zoom chat function for troubleshooting or logistics questions. Otherwise, if you have something to say and it's not your application, then you can raise your hands. This isn't really going to apply to our current applicants who are on. You'll be called forward when it's your time to talk about your application. We don't really have any members of the just general public on tonight. So I'm just going to say that in the event I get noticed that the public is unable to access this meeting, it will need to be continued to a time and place certain. I'll now hand the meeting back over to the chair. Unless anybody has anything to add at this point, do I hear a motion to approve the agenda? I'll second. All in favor of the agenda, speak your names. Aaron. Ben. Steven. No word from Liz, but we will move on. We can move on to the first application for 53 Memorial Drive owner Rexbo development applicant Ryan point. Is Ryan here to speak or we have Erica Young who's here. If you could introduce yourself and your connection to the application, please. Sure. Sorry. Hi, my name is Erica Young. I oversee the motor fuels department for Sandry energy, which is a subdivision of Rexbo development that owns this property and go ahead and describe you're the application for changing the sign zone. So one of our initiatives this year per the advisement of our insurance company was to install LED signs where possible. We've had some issues with these old antiquated signs with numbers falling out, either landing on people's cars or employees. And I did hear the comment about gas prices changing daily. So that is an added benefit that we don't have to go out in the ice and the snow to do that. It's just become dangerous and the signs are old. So we've been trying to go through all of our properties and install these new LED signage where possible. So that's why we're submitting the application at this point. It likely won't happen until after the first of the year just because of having to order the equipment. And how do they I'm sorry. Go ahead. No, go ahead. I was just going to ask how do the dimensions of the proposed sign compare with the existing sign. So there it's the exact same sign. What we're doing is Meredith. We they had different standards and so they had sharp edges. They're new their new image had square corners and we were told that that couldn't happen. So we ended up submitting a new rendering and it's actually going to go into the exact same facing that's there. So the dimensions are the same. The frame is the same. It's just the LED insert that'll be put in instead. Okay. And what is the difference between the day and night sign? That's just their rendering in some of them like for diesel that the number colors are different. This one actually doesn't have that but for diesel it would actually be green and white. So they show you both renderings but there's really no difference. There's a note on the rendering that indicates that the final dimensions are to be determined by engineering. Are we pretty certain that these are the final dimensions? Yes. Okay. And is there a place for three prices? I see that on the existing sign there are three pricings and the proposed digital is two. And it says regular regular go rewards and regular. Is there a separate diesel posting? We don't have diesel at this facility and the Sonoco standards is that you don't advertise the mid or the ultra anymore. Okay. And on the rendering it says night. It looks like a different color. I think they're just trying to depict the dark background. It looks black but it's just I think it's just meant to show that darker background to show how the LED will look against the nighttime. Okay. But the color is just the dark blue. Correct. Okay. Any comments, questions from committee members? And Liz, that's you back on, right? Yes, I'm back on. Awesome. And I have no comments. I looked at the materials beforehand. So to me, I thought it looked okay. Awesome. Thank you. Yeah. Okay, in that case, I can go through the criteria for signs and the design control district. The size, location, design, color, texture, lighting and material of all exterior signs within the design review overlay district shall be compatible with the buildings and structures of the site and surrounding properties. That's acceptable. Sign, design, color and typography shall respect historic precedents where appropriate and shall be the appropriate scale for existing and new buildings acceptable. Sign support structures shall be compatible with the building architecture and must not be overly complex or dominant in and of themselves acceptable. And that's basically it. All in favor of the application is presented. Speak your names. Eric, Ben, Steve. Yes. And Steve says yes as well. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Great. So the vote has passed. So Erica, because they didn't make any recommendations for changes to the sign, I'll take this recommendation form that Steve is filling out and we should get the permit issued in the next couple of days. Normally we would mail that, but I think what does Ryan have on here? Don't think we want to mail that to Greenfield, Massachusetts. We'll be in touch with Ryan about whether somebody from the gas station will come and pick it up. And the best way to get it because there's going to be a notice that's going to need to be posted at the gas station for the permit. Yeah, you can email Ryan. We'll actually have our motor fuels manager come by the office and pick it up so we can take care of that. Perfect. Perfect. And we'll make sure to email around a scan of the permit so you guys have it for your records. Okay. Perfect. Awesome. Thank you very much. You're welcome and thank you for tweaking the framing issue. Anything to make this happen. Thanks. Thanks. Thank you. Thank you. And we can move on to the next application for eight States Street owner Vermont rental solutions applicant DJ Berry replacement of a wall sign. So DJ yep. There you go. Hi. Hello from London. I'm glad the remote system worked from there. It is pretty amazing. Zoom has their stuff together. Hey, it's working right now. Don't jinx it. Go ahead and describe your application. Arrow Med is the current occupant. They're going to be moving and we will be I'll be taking over the space in January and I'm just looking to put the words and letters World Cal in the the name of my brand replacing it. What is the nature of the business? World Cal it will be a gallery an art gallery and a shop retail space of what? Retails. So so the art it will be different artwork. It will feature you know a variety of our work over time and the shop will include apparel gifts things like that. All of those things incorporating your art. Yes World Cal is my brand and it's you maybe you've seen some of the World Cal paintings around Montpelier. There's a big one on what used to be Allen Lumber. So it'll be a lot of apparel gifts actually most there's a lot of stores in Montpelier that currently carry my products but now we're going to be this will be our first brick and mortar for that and then art is I'm a street artist. That's what I'm doing here in London is painting and so it'll be I'll be featuring artists from all over the world in this gallery and I'll be also selling my own paintings. Sounds very interesting. Regarding the sign itself. What what what was the basis for the the height and thickness of the letters on the building? So I thought that the cleanest look after looking at all the other signs in Montpelier was the traditional lettering seemed to be a common theme and I like I tried to incorporate my art into the sign but it just didn't look as good and it wasn't as centered and I thought that just the simple words of World Cal kind of fit the framing the existing framing space and kind of played off that better than trying to you know kind of make it too much. So that to me the rendering that I did seem to just it just looked right for me. This is Martha I have no problem at all with the placement or the idea of or the colors of what you have in mind but it seems to me that the font is very heavy. Have you thought of doing something a little lighter? So the font interesting enough is is Cooper Black and I deal with a lot of trademarks and copyrights and yet to be very careful when using fonts and that one is a completely free domain font to use commercially. So in terms of having it on my t-shirts having it on the sign it wasn't the original font I picked but the original font I picked didn't have a commercial license attached to it and Cooper Black is a very common font that's used that I thought was as closest to the font I started using with all my t-shirts. I just think it is bold and looks I think it's intriguing and will draw people in and so it was it was my most desired font out of all of them. I understand your point. I'm sorry go ahead. The readability of the sign has as much to do with contrast as it does with the height height and thickness of the letters. So if you if again the there's no issue with the font but it's the heaviness of the font as Martha had described and in many historic districts are rule of thumb and it's not in our regulations but a rule of thumb is that the height of the letters is one inch for every 10 feet of visibility and if you're looking at even a 100 feet away. That's basically a 10 inch letter yours are 15 inches and it's not not so much the height but the thickness of the letters if the letters were thinner you would show more dark background against the white letters which would actually make it more readable if if you have any thoughts regarding that I do I I carefully took a synapses of like rabble rouser for example and and really that's a bad example because that's not is way too large for the my letters are a lot smaller than half the businesses in town and you know I I thought that I was doing a pretty good job of being considerate moderate in that sense I could have made them bigger to fill that space more. But I I think it's really important I think World Cow is going to be a destination and is going to I fundraise for charities around the world but with this particular business I'm going to bring it back to Montpelier and I'm going to bring it back to fundraising for charities all over central Vermont and so I really I know that this is I guess what I'm trying to say is it might seem big is big and if it feels a little too much I really think that they're that it's going to do a great service for the city and that that will be shown in time and I don't know you know I at this point in the game I've already I've you know producing a lot of clothing and and trying to use this new font it's not it's a it's a fun font but you know I it's not a big square signage or anything I'm really trying to preserve that black background black and white is kind of the whole steam cow theme and so I think it's really important that when you look at World Cow you see black and white not lots of black and little bits of white you know an even sort of play there so I am very passionate about the Cooper black font. It's not so much the font it's the heaviness of the font and if you look at the W or the R for instance there's very little black showing through the letter and the letter becomes actually more readable with more black showing through the white lettering. I I would it's not the font so much as the heaviness of the letters. I feel that the font is very readable. I think that it's very clear that it says World Cow and that it's very important to my brand that that spot is thick. You know I I think that to use a thinner font would do an injustice to what we're trying to do. I'm not trying to be conservative on the lettering of my signage I'm trying to make a statement and promote kindness on a global scale and put Vermont the map for that. I think that everything from our message and street art around the world to our font that we use our sign. It's important that it does make a statement that it does it that it's bold and to reduce that would be I really feel injustice. You can I step in for just a second sort of mediator a little bit so DJ they're not trying to be critical just so you know there's there are signage organizations nationwide signage organizations that have a bunch of statistics out about readability of signs at a distance and especially in moving vehicles and things about how if the font is really big it actually takes a brain longer to process the words and so you don't actually get them processed till after you've gone past the store so they're they're actually trying to help you. They're not they're they're not trying to be like a really critical or change. The the context of it right there they're trying they're trying to make sure that the sign is readable quickly enough and for people's brains process it quickly enough so they actually come into your store that's all I'm not I'm not saying like how to how to say what I'm just it's sounding like you're you're getting really concerned and I'm just trying to make sure you understand where some of the other members are coming from that's all. Thank you Meredith and I completely appreciate and understand that and you know as an artist doing following my heart and I looked at hundreds of fonts. So so you know things that feel right this font feels right. I know that this sign is not going to be the thing that's bringing people to Montpelier into my business. This font and this sign is a very world cow feeling that I have as an artist and you know I I have no concern on a sign bringing traffic into my store. I really don't because what we're doing at World Cow and and what what this brand is is is doing. This is the beginning of something very big and I'm very excited about it and you know I I don't have concerns there but what I do have concerns on is is you know painting my cow and then somebody telling me to put a collar on it or a cowbell on it or shrink it and make it look skinnier or make my cow have a tail that's flashing a certain way. If I were to do what works for everyone I just don't think I'd be where I am today if I didn't follow you know inside what I felt was right in my heart. I think DJ that one of the things that we're coming from is that what we're looking at is the overall tone of the town itself and whether or not this fits in with what we see in the rest of the town that is one of my concerns. Well I think the heaviness of the font the heaviness of it that's the heaviness of the pond if you look at the one one of the criteria that's either acceptable or unacceptable for the application is the size of the sign color texture contrast and is it compatible with the building and surrounding properties and the heaviness of the of the lettering in the sign is really not compatible if you look at adjacent properties and again and the font is fine and in a in a thinner lettering possibly but so that sign is that that particular sign is heavier than the signs adjacent to it and it doesn't have anything to do I mean nobody's trying to change your art or the cow or anything in your other. I mean they're they're people who have logos but they modify their logos just for their sign again to make the sign readable and fitting in with the historic downtown. So so to that point you know the the recent cannabis signs and arrow med signs that don't even fit the frame that they're in I took a poll at the size of lettering on all the businesses and I was in the medium and I just I'm feeling that this is not a good start to a relationship to my community and I don't have to be in my pillar and I really this is this is discouraging because this is I can't make that font skinnier I can't I'm not going to I'm you know like I can't put a Cooper black and then some it wouldn't be Cooper black if I were to change those dimensions and shrink it and you know it would it's not about making the sign less wide or less tall as much as it's about making the letters show thinner so that there's more background showing and it actually becomes more readable. You can still I mean you can still maintain that height even though it's taller than you really needed to be you can still maintain that height. But if the if the letters were the same size but thinner not as not as not as fat it wouldn't look at quite as heavy but it would still be and actually be more readable quick quick idea and if this is even possible I'm looking would it be possible to do almost a thin black pinstripe inside. I'm looking at this now and I I am absolutely shocked that somebody cannot read World Cal that it's unreadable at any point on that street. I don't think they're saying it's unreadable. Next to me is unreadable the Botanica I mean it's I mean you have to be sit you have to be on that sidewalk to read that one. Yeah I mean I think that you guys have a problem with it being so bold and I are just you know I mean we're different at World Cal and that's what makes us so special. We don't fit the mold for everything and I really believe that if we try to fit the mold for everything how can we succeed only by being different. Is it way to really progress and I'm just so disappointed that I just this was something I wouldn't imagine that my peers would would be a hard time on especially if they knew what I was trying to do for the community. If you're trying to help me and get more people in my store that's one thing but yeah I think that if we looked at statistics for signs that works it's like college all right college didn't work for I dropped out it works for a lot of people and if I you know it's I wouldn't be where I was today where I am today if I graduated from college I dropped out because I went on a different path and it didn't work for me. I get what you're saying you know for how a thinner line could could be but I look at rabble rouser I look at these other signs that are up now that like the cannabis one that doesn't even fit the frame and I think that I did a pretty darn good job making something fit that space. I have that and yeah I don't know what to say this point except that it sounds like a day can you stop for just a second please this is Meredith so you've heard from 2 out of 5 DRC members can can we maybe hear what the others have to say and Liz just so you know on the phone you can do star 9 to mute and unmute if you need to especially if you're having a little bit. Yeah you know I thought you were muted and I realize you weren't yeah you're not yeah so star 9 let you mute and unmute. Yeah sounds like Ben has something he wants to say so to hold on just a minute DJ OK. I appreciate that you're willing to move a store here I follow you on Instagram and I was just going through your website and I actually did create those rabble rouser signs as an aside. I am and looking through your website I appreciate the font in the text on your website especially I guess I'm looking under I'm on the the cows for a cause page under world world cow and the way that you use the the text in the font on your website I think is really quite elegant and I have a lot of appreciation for that I think it's similar to what Stephen Martha are speaking of is what kind of font would really look nice on your store. That said I also believe that it's your store and your choice to put whatever font you want up there because it's it's your idea that said I see a connection between the font on your website and and the way that it's could be displayed on on on the store and feel like it would look nice for our our town but this is your choice. Well listen I I have plenty of time and you know again I'm I'm over here in London doing this international festival. I I am not opposed to making another rendering and playing around with it and just coming back to you as long as I don't have to pay that $180 again. No no if you want to basically continue this meeting and come back with another the next meeting if we want to just kind of prolong it it gives me enough time to to to dig in because I do value all community input and to to what you're saying about the website you know that's probably all going away. That makes sense for a at some point because I do have to redo that so it is outdated. But just because with the store there's a whole new system that I'm I'm implementing so I might be redoing that website but but yes me that you would want the website to read through the sign and so I'm completely open to coming back home and just seeing what it would look like you know what I mean I have to do the Photoshop I have to put the thin font on there but it's very possible I could come back to the next meeting with the same exact font after I've done that and after I've tried hard to to reduce it. Yeah and you can also you can come back if you if you have you know choice ones and one in two where you're like I don't really want prefer this one but this is an option or even just to show them some of the things you came up with that you didn't like as much. You can show that to them as well if you want you know you can I haven't spoken yet which is unusual but the I don't think I'm listening to what people are saying. I don't think anybody is objecting to the font itself. I think they're objecting to the kind of heaviness of the letters of selves and the lack of open spaces in that font and I think I'm quite a small reduction in the thickness of the letters would make it make a difference. It would make it look better would make it more readable. It doesn't really change your philosophical approach to it as I that I can see. The only issue is I would have to create another font. So just to let everybody know there's no way you can change Cooper block Cooper black that specific font that I picked to be thinner. So I would actually have to completely change the font. That's how that's just what it is. I'm open to that. I will do that when I get back to the states and we can regroup and and come back again together. I think that's a good idea. That's a good you haven't until January before you occupy the property. So we've got some time to deal with it. Yeah. So DJ what I'll do is I'll put this is continued and we'll pencil you in for the next meeting. If something comes up and you for some reason can't attend the next meeting which would be November 7th. Then if we need to we can move it forward from there. But the next meeting will be November 7th. Thank you. Yes. I'll definitely be there. I can have this done by then. And you know I will do my best to see if I can find another font. And if I if I can't I will come back after trying and I promise you that I will take everybody's input into full consideration and do some more renderings and then I will send you those examples as well so that we can all look at them together for that meeting. That sounds awesome. Yes. So send those to me to Meredith and I'll put those together in a updated packet for the committee. Okay. Thanks. Thank you very much and we appreciate your coming. And again has been said looking at the at your website but all the lettering on the site itself the lettering on your t-shirt on some of the art is very very nice in it. There's a lot of open space and again it's that that lettering is very very readable and I hope you can find something similar that's that would you would be happy with over your store that matches some of your other some of your other work. I appreciate that. Thank you. So the motion being flexible. Appreciate it. The motion is to table all in favor of tabling and coming back. Eric says yes. Ben says yes. Steve says yes. Yes. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you everybody have have a good night and we'll come together on the 7th. Okay. Thank you. Enjoy your time in London. Thank you so much. Take care. Oh thanks. I say hi. I did see some Banksy work while I was here and you know I'll tell the painting you said hi but I don't know the man personally. Of course not. That's what's so great about him. All right. Have have a good night. Thank you everybody. All right. Thank you. Thank you. And has everyone had a chance to look at the minutes from September the 6th and the 19th. Yeah. Motion to accept the minutes of September 6th as written. Okay. All in favor of accepting the September the 6th. Well we have a motion to anybody second that. I'll second it all in favor of the September the 6th minutes speak your names. He wasn't there. Steve says yes. Yes. And Ben says yes. So those are approved. And have as the September the 19th. Same motion to accept them as their answers. They're written. This is Martha. And I'll second. So all in favor of the 19th speak your names. Martha. Steve says yes. I have to stay and I wasn't there. Liz. Sorry. Sorry. Yes. I say yeah. Okay. Thank you. Does anyone have anything else to bring up at this point or do I hear a motion to adjourn? Oh sorry. The planning commission will be taking up the new design guidelines on Monday the 24th for their first meeting on those. So if anybody wants to attend that meeting starts at 530. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. You're welcome. And I'll second all in favor of adjourn. Journning speak your names. Yes. And Steve and Steve says yes. Liz. Yes. So meeting is adjourned. Thank you all for coming. Thank you Liz.