 We have 25 minutes left in this particular session, and Michael, are you giving me the cue that you have to depart? I have to catch an airplane. You have to catch an airplane. So ladies and gentlemen, it's really the airplane, it's not symbolic that the UK member is leaving the panel. That's not what it is, not about the... Thank you very much. We won't overestimate and read into the symbolism of this particular act, but we wish you a safe flight back. If you will, you can push up the seat that way, it probably looks a bit better on the picture. Ladies and gentlemen. I'm fairly certain that in the midst of these very interesting and passionate presentations, there has been... We'll have an accumulation of some comments, remarks and questions. If that's the case, please indicate so that we can do a very quick Q&A session in the remainder of the time. If there are questions, please let me know by indicating and I will incorporate you. If that's not the case at this particular point, I have a couple of questions on my own, Minister Borrell. The issue of migration, obviously, and it's become very clear throughout the presentations here on this panel, has led to a rise of populism and populist parties throughout EU national parliament. Spain on the other hand, despite having gone through some hardship, economic hardship itself, has been spared of this particular phenomenon. There's no significant populist movement in Spain to speak of. What do you think the Spanish case is so different? Well, I wouldn't say that in Spain, there are no populist movements. Yes, we have them. There are no xenophobic reactions. There are no anti-migrants reactions. But there are populisms that are not like that. And that's a good question. Why does Spain, first of all, Spain has not received the number of migrants that have received Italy. The Italians have been abandoned by the European Union. They have asked for help and we, the Spanish, the French, have looked at it from the other side. While we in Spain have not had this great concentration as we have in Italy or in Germany, there have been two years. Now it's starting. We have already almost 40,000 arrived this year. But there would be, deep down in Spanish society, a sense of solidarity that is shown every day in the support of migrants in the south, in Andalusia. Maybe because we were a people of migrants. Maybe because we needed a quantity of work. Maybe because our migration was mostly Latin American. And it's much easier to integrate someone who speaks the Golden language and who shares a cultural, religious tradition. It's much easier to integrate people from South America than people from the South of Africa. But in Spain, we don't have, let's raise our hands. This reaction against migrants, this reaction against foreigners, this idea that is developed in the east of Europe, to say we want to be a pure society, we refuse migration, we close ourselves, they say it clearly. We don't see migrants. And we have had the great failure to try to contribute the mandatory quota in the eastern countries. It didn't work. And normally it shouldn't work because we are violent, the deep desires of a society. I think that's the most important reason. I hope that we will continue to be a land of support and we will continue to have, with our neighbors from North Africa, Morocco, a policy of cooperation that helps us a lot. Thank you so much. The cooperation, obviously when it comes to migration, is very important one. Now, Calvin Kniesler, your government, particularly its junior partner, has been making statements that could be defined and interpreted as xenophobic and anti-refugee, anti-migrant issues. Now, the criticism that your government and particularly your junior partner has received in the international sphere is widely known. Would you say, when we talk about the future of Europe and Austria in particular, that there's no danger as far as Austria drifting to the right on this particular front. Do you think that the concerns that your government has been issuing and voicing vis-à-vis refugees and migrants are very much in place? Could you be a bit more specific? About your junior partner? No, about your criticism because I don't understand your question. Well, I mean, at this particular point, the xenophobic sentiments that your junior partner has been... Can you give a particular example because I'm not aware of a particular example? You're not aware? No. Well, I'm German speaking as well. No, but to be more specific, because you're putting here a very general statement, but I would be very keen to have, for instance, a kind of quotation or something just to be more specific so that I can respond in a specific way. Right, so the proposal, for instance, to have people of Jewish faith to register, is that something that in the news... No, sorry, that's really... Is that fake news? No, I'm not saying this is fake news, but this is something where you're not taking out something that was decided under a previous government in a specific province when it comes to distribution about ordering a certain type of food. And this has been something that was decided in a province by a previous government, so not by the current government. And we were not speaking about the national government, you were speaking about the regional government. Well, then let's put it very bluntly and clear with a very simple yes or no answer. You're saying the Austrian government is not drifting towards the right. Is that what you're saying? Your question was xenophobia. So please give me a very specific example about the national government, where anybody of us among the ministers, Chancellor Issa was the minister of foreign affairs, because I'm sitting here, I'm in charge of foreign affairs. Can you please give me a very specific example where, for instance, I have been pronouncing myself as xenophobic. The accusation or rather the statement is obviously not directed towards you personally or your particular party. But on the government... Yeah, but give me a specific example, I can give you a specific answer. Okay, well, obviously I don't have the statements now from your junior partner. Yeah, but you're making now statements and I would like... I don't like this kind of, you know, just putting accusations into the room. So if you're specific, I'll give you a specific answer. Right, so then let's broaden it up, because obviously at this particular point you're not comfortable or... No, it's not about comfortable, it's about... I would like to join here. This conference is called World Policy Conference. I would like to be specific on global issues. Right. But of course the topic that we're discussing here are about some basic strategic European issues. Yes, so the more you become specific, the more I can be also... I don't like this kind of, you know, just general fluffy statements. Well, let's talk about the specific goals then of Austrian EU presidency. Let's talk about what Austria is in the midst of contributing to a sound, safe and prosperous EU. How about that? Yes, we're delighted to answer on that. Well, wonderful. We have come to an agreement. Yes, thank you very much. A specific question, a specific answer. We are now in the third, fourth months of EU presidency and what I as Minister of Foreign Affairs try in particular, and I've briefly referred to it when it comes to Southeast Europe. I've spoken about the vacuum that we have in Southeast Europe and where I think that... I mean, we feel close. Geography is the constant factor of history, as we know. We have a large diaspora of people with Serbian, Kosovo, Albanian, whatever origin, and we have an absence of perspective, in particular for the young population there, and my first visits all went to Sarajevo, to Belgrade, to Sargrep, because it's a region that we know about. It's important being surrounded by EU countries and not having the clear-cut perspective versus a European future. So I fully understand the sepsism and it was my... Deputy Goulanger also referred to the European elections in Paris in The Hague. Whenever you speak about enlargement in that part of the world, you, of course, have a sepsis. So I find that there is something that must be relativised. I will end with a big difference. Between the French and the Germans on Europe, it's the following. It's that in France, you won't find anyone who agrees with the European status quo. You will have either people who are against, who want to come back, or people who want to go further. In Germany, they are very happy with Europe as it is and if it doesn't work better, it's because people don't respect treaties as they are. So there is a difference in approach that is sensible and it explains a bit of the disadvantage to President Macron, because he came up with the idea of saying that France has dragged its feet. Germany has always wanted to go forward. Well, no, France has dragged its feet, but Germany has been satisfied since Maastricht, since the reunification of Europe as it is. But now, Europe is threatened and it will have to go forward. Thank you so much. Clearly unlike the current state of Europe, the technical issues here are somewhat going through a rough time, but I think we're back now. We're back. The time clock here has vanished, perhaps we can put that up as well so I can keep track, because I know we are running out of time. Nicolas, you're both based in Europe and the US. So you have a double perspective, if you will, on issues. Now, the current US president obviously has made no secret about it that perhaps he doesn't and issues and relations with Europe are not his number one priority. Is the relevance of the EU diminishing from where you're standing, when you're in DC and speaking to your American counterpart, is that what you're encountering that Europe is losing in terms of influence and relevance in that part of the world? I think there are different time cycles in terms of the fact that Europe is not central in how the US looks at the world. This has been a long standing trend. You remember when President Obama was nicknamed the Pacific presidency that he didn't have a background in Europe. He wasn't interested in Europe. So nothing very new here. Clearly the US sees the major security issues in the Middle East and in China. The European Union has been seen as low priority simply because it was not a hotspot of problems. That's not the Trump presidency. I think the question which is still unresolved like so many questions about the Trump presidency is whether this administration will be aggressively hostile to Europe because what President Trump has said that the European Union was set up to take advantage of the US and to put the US in a difficult position that is unprecedented. This is something that no previous President has said. So I wouldn't frame it in terms of relevancy relevance. I would frame it in terms of is the US going to be aggressive against European integration or is it just a flutter and some things that will go away? I think we don't know yet. I would say that Europe is actually more relevant in a way because it is more of a counter way to some impulses of the Trump administration certainly in trade or in climate change. It's less aligned with American administrations than it was in a previous certainly under the Obama administration. So that creates conflict and conflict creates relevance but we're not it's basically too early to tell. We're almost out of time but I do want to get a sense because when we talk about Europe and this particular panel has been no exception of course the needs for solidarity is always being stressed. If you look at the future and talking to your European counterparts such as Minister Borrell what is your sense? Since we're slowly winding down here how optimistic are you about the state of the European Union about the role of the European Union going forward and its relevance in the world affairs? Well what I have always been proud of as a European citizen is that it is built on treaties and just a few days ago 24th of October we had the signing 370 years ago of the Treaty of Westphalia which was in my assessment the beginning of modernity in Europe because it was the beginning of the territorial state, it was the beginning of the equality of the sovereigns and also of international law so everything we have seen in terms of evolving also of multilateralism but Groscius Richelieu an idealist and a realist the two of them who had been drafting to a certain extent the Treaty of Westphalia and later much later that for me is what Europe is about normative basis and credibility and here I think in order to remain credible in particular with regard to China it's all about are we complying with our own normative obligations and this leads to what has been stated also when it comes to currency affairs this has this in my opinion right now in foreign affairs is a lot about the Iran nuclear disarmament Treaty the JCPOA a phrase that all of us have studied once upon a time when going into international relations we just have to be preserved the trust in the end is all about the trust in signatures that we have and I think this is what Europe has always been standing for so in order to remain credible to be considered a player we have to fulfill our own obligations on a normative level and here going far beyond solidarity because solidarity is a nice catch word but you have to enshrine it into norms and I would like to see I repeat myself a Europe moving out of this mentality of bean counting the crema saline that we have, the buddhimprox that we have here and there and going more into understanding the bigger geopolitical challenges and this I miss on many levels and for that it's a level of humanistic education that sometimes you have backbone and a certain degree of courage and self-confidence so that's how I understand my work as in my current position as EU chair from time to time it's necessary to call a spade a spade courage for rather the desire for a more courageous and self-confident Europe going forward we're going to end this panel the way we started Minister Borrell I want to give you the opportunity to wrap up this particular session with the very same question of course namely looking forward about the future of the European Union the union that your country has been a part of for many decades you also somebody in your role you travel all over the world you talk to people what is the international assessment of Europe do we still have the means do we still have the influence to be a relevant player in world affairs not as much as needed you know before the EU crisis when I was traveling by South America people asked me you are a success story tell us how we should do in order to repeat your integration process it was before the crisis we were economically booming a lot of migrants and being something that people were looking at us as something to be followed to be imitated then the crisis came and I think we have lost 10 years for many European countries and today we don't make the waves in front of the big big powers that are emerging I think the future of Europe passes through a bigger integration stronger integration but not all of the member states are ready to do so many of them they are not willing not just United Kingdom who has living who is living other countries don't want to integrate better Germany is at their optimum it's in a situation where it's very good the situation he has why should Germany change but if you want to have a role in the world if you want to influence the global world then even Germany alone is too small we have to integrate better and more but knowing realistically that this is not going there is not the will for doing that in many European countries so the key word for me is differentiated integration around the Eurozone to track Europe we are ready to track Europe some member states share currency others don't share some member states have abolished their borders others they are very much stick to their borders they want to close them two of the most important characteristics of a state the currency and the border some of us we are sharing it and others we refuse to share the integration is there it's nothing new I'm trying to end on a hopeful and optimistic note here but I understand and appreciate your honesty about the concerns that you have vis-à-vis Europe particularly with as you've said and I quote you some member states are not ready willing to move this union along now ladies and gentlemen basic European strategic issues obviously this is a topic that we could have gone on for the next two three hours a topic that will be with us for a very long time because I think that much has become clear throughout the very passionate and eloquent statements here Europe will have a place and will have a role to play in World Affairs whether I would like to or not the question is of course in what scope size and capacity ladies and gentlemen that's that for the Michael Lothia, Nicola Sferron and John Louis Boulange please join me in thanking them thank you so much