 Welcome to Skeptico where we explore controversial science with leading researchers, thinkers, and their critics. Today, well, as the creator and host of And Bitenostic Radio, Miguel Conner truly is the ultimate veteran of a thousand existential deep dives. Through his interviews with nearly all of the notable esoteric thinkers of our time, Miguel has become recognized as a leading voice of not just Gnosticism, which has always been his foot in the door of your mind calling card, but the leader of, I think, an undeniable alternative spirituality zeitgeist that we're all in the middle of. So it's great to talk to Miguel. I gained so much from him and he is like one of my go-to mystics. So it's just great to have you back. Miguel, thanks for joining me. Always a pleasure to be here, my friend. We always have a lot of fun and as always, two old guys from Chicago are going to try to figure out reality. That's right. Down having an old style at the pub and talking about shit. That's what it is. Well, not these days. We can't go to the pub. We'll get arrested. That's true. The guards will prevent us from getting in. So I twisted Miguel's arm to come on and help me with this project that I'm working on that listeners have kind of had to endure in my kind of stumbling through the evil question. So we're definitely going to want to talk about that. But Miguel also has some interesting things going on over at Anbite, always does, including possibly a new podcast. Maybe we'll talk a little bit about esoteric health and addiction. Or how would you put that, Miguel, what you're thinking about doing? Well, it's been something at the back of my mind, how there's not that much media out there to deal specifically with addiction and mental issues from alternative science. I mean, there's a lot about health, podcasters and shows do it, but there's really not much out there. And it's something I can address from a my experience in the esoterica and B is somebody who is a recovering drug addict, somebody who is, I guess, was told once upon a time by traditional medicine that I'm bipolar. And it seems like it seems the time is right, especially as well. We knew that the collective consciousness of humanity was breaking down. In 2020, it's going to crumble and people, I think we are in a time where people are slowly going to turn away from the traditional because the traditional keeps screwing us and finding alternative methods. Get away from the pharmaceutical industrial complex, get away from psychiatry, get away from the usual stuff and find alternatives that have worked. And you know, the data tells us like you always say, follow the data. And the data says alternative medicine, vitamins and other, you know, forgotten methods do work or can work or should be an option at the very least. You know, absolutely. I mean, I think maybe we will have a chance to talk more about that because I think it's extremely timely. And as you said, it's just in keeping with where everything's going. Especially, you know, like you said to old guys, I get that all the younger people totally get this. It's all about biohacking. It's about, you know, ice baths, which I do, but it's about breathing. It's about, you know, yoga and it's about, you know, like you said, alternative medicine in the form of supplements and that kind of stuff. So yeah, I think there's a ton there. And I think the intersection between that and kind of this extended consciousness science that continues to kind of get all this traction that you talk about and I talk about. So I think it's a great, great idea. And I think it can really be in service to a lot of people. So we're going to talk about that. Why don't we back up. I think everybody knows you, but invariably, I'm just going to jump in and talk about a lot of inside baseball. So before I do that, tell people a little bit about your background and and bite and kind of who you are, run down kind of thing. Yeah, I mean, there's, I don't know how much there is to say once upon a time, as many of your listeners as you was a seeker sought for many years fell into many traps discovered many doorways that somehow ended up hit for me hitting walls and I really about 13 years ago discovered Gnosticism and I can't say I discovered this as a religion, but more as a philosophy and aesthetic and attitude and my interest immediately was not just to learn about it, but share with the world almost in real time. What I was discovering and I was very fortunate to the for the Golden Age of podcasting do a little podcast and was able to score a lot of great guests, the translators of the Nagamari Library, the Gnostic Gospels individuals like Bart Ehrman and a whole slew of different characters to share Gnosticism, ancient and modern from the philosophical to the religious and the podcast grew and it's sort of been my child for the last 13 years and honestly I've only really taken it seriously in the last couple of years where I think in 2018 I finally went full time with it and it's it's done very well I can't complain. Well, it's been a constant source of really inspiration is kind of an overused term but it but it has and just millions and millions of downloads and I just know from the community and the waters we swim in. You are held in the in the highest regard you're somebody who's actually penetrated some to a certain degree. The academic circles, which I think is truly amazing and you look at like you were invited down to Rice University with a very excellent Dr. Jeffrey Kreipel hats off for him for realizing that this kind of avant guard journalism thing that you are doing is really where the action is and it's not in these stodgy conferences that no one goes to and I think that's. I think that's excellent and I think it's also going to be a trend I think more and more people are going to realize if you just sit back and listen to a on bite. You're getting the kind of education that you can't get at a university or at a conference or anything like that it's just amazing. Well, thanks Alex. Yeah, I think as I've said on my show, I do believe these are Gnostic times. This is certainly a Philip K Dick world. It's a it's a shit show if you pardon my language. So I think this information is more important than ever. If anything, as Gary Lachman and others have said the Gnostics are the perennial outsiders of history. They're the guys outside looking in the punks and the rebels and the nerds. That's how it's been with history. And we live in a time where that's the type of attitude we need to penetrate the amazing machinery that has been created over society. Maybe maybe it's a choice. Skeptico Skeptico coming at you thing. I tell you what I want to do. I again, I don't it's not always a love fest here in Skeptico. It's just half love fest and half hater. I know the drill. I know that's why I listen to your show religiously. I know the drill. There's no if it didn't happen, I would be like I really failed. It's the Dave Chappelle haters, haters ball, you know, kind of. Anyways, excellent video I want to share with people. So you kind of said how you're, you know, stepping into the next level. You did. You did a video a little while back, which is next level in terms of production quality, but I think will give people a sense for kind of where your head is at in a lot of times. And it's also a great jumping off point. I think for this dialogue, I want to drag you into about evil. So let me play this. This is you can find this on YouTube. I do not know whether the gods are faces that we give to that which is faceless in order to comprehend it and be close to it as human beings. If they are manifestations of distinct powers arising from an unknowable immensity or supreme reality or a oneness. If they are mediators or messengers between us and the God who is beyond comprehension. If they are aspects of nature and the world personified. If they are archetypes or forces of consciousness both within and without man. Or if they are at the highest human expression of being beyond mortality. Perhaps they are a combination of all of the above. What I do know is that the gods are mysteries and that we as human beings are ultimately drawn to them. And I know that they respond if one calls out to them. And I might pause it right there because I love that line as a jumping off point for this nature of evil thing. What I do know is that the gods, and I think when you say gods, we could also substitute kind of the dark side there and all the light dark are mysteries that we as humans are ultimately drawn to. Tell me about that and tell me if that does relate also to maybe some of the what I'm calling evil. We're going to have to define that maybe you wanted to find that it's all wrapped into a lot of things you're saying there so jump off. Well, I mean it's no secret that our minds are wired to have mystic experience and to want to know God. It's that's pretty much a science has proven that and it's interesting how even chimpanzees will build temples. So there is something with us that is want to, as you say, go into the extended consciousness into the metaphysical. Of course, we both know our mutual friend Gordon White spoke starships that society started with man looking at the stars. And you might say the stars do represent the gods or maybe the gods came from the stars as you've had many shows and I've had many shows. So I think we are wired to try to find out what is the mystery beyond us. And again, quoting Gordon, he did. He does say that 98% of myths across the world have evil spirits or an evil character in it. I guess we live in a society where perennialism has sort of taken over. You know that idea that there's one ancient wisdom and a golden age and evil is the privatio bono of Augustine. It's a lack of God and that is sort of taking even new age and esoteric spirituality, even the pagan dispensation that's taken it over. I remember you talked about the Gnostic conference that I went to with Jeff Kreipel, but Eric Davis, the author who obviously the one of the editors of Philip K. Dix, the exegesis and he just came out with his great book, High Weirness. Various stutely said that the difference between Gnosticism and perennialism, basically talking about all occultism, are the archons. That's what separates the Gnostics from everything else because the Gnostics saw an opposition, a darkness, what not to be these negative agents who are very real. And again like most of the myths of the ancients that in line with these ancient myths and these ancient people. So where does that place us in your, and you know, I'm hoping in a lot of ways here I can kind of scratch beyond. Oh, I killed an animal in the forest, you know, the chimpanzees kill each other. It's like, no, somebody trying to reach into the extended realm to do something especially, especially wicked in this realm is seems to be of a different ilk. Yeah, I would certainly say so. And the worst is when people go in some sort of state of denial, well, there's some greater purpose for it. And to arguments in Gnostic groups, there's some greater purpose and I'd have what I call the my kitty porn rule. I said, there is no greater purpose. There's nothing that's ever going to match the immense pain and damage that you have done to a child. Maybe a few children could do well, but most is just broken soul broken psyches. It's, it's, it's evil. You can't call it anything else. So I understand that. But again, a lot of our society, we've, we've just gotten used to turning a blind eye and it can go in many dimensions. I know from a monastic perspective, at least classical evil is basically anything that ignorance is the greater evil when we do not see who we are. We don't see the universe as it is that then ignorance come in, comes in. And that's when we do, well, we can do a lot of evil things. Great wars, how easily cultures are manipulated, damage that we do to others are, you know, spouses are children that somehow we rationalize. So ignorance, at least from the Gnostic viewpoint is a huge one. Like what does Jesus say on the cross, father forgive them. They do not know what they do. And that great story, obviously they are slaughtering one of the wisest men or the son of God or, you know, the great rep, the hero of the tale itself. So ignorance is one way, but at the same time it has to, sometimes it has to stop short that there is something out there that simply wishes destruction, that is pure darkness. And going back to perennialism and the Gospel of John, the Gospel of John starts with that beautiful, in the beginning was the Word and the Word was God. But towards the end, what does it say? And the darkness knows it not. The darkness did not know the logos. So even the Gospel of John presupposes an incredible darkness that does not like this logos coming into the world or creating what is good. I'm wondering from a personal level, how does that shadow work for you with your practice in Gnosticism? And more broadly, because I think of you, you know, we always talk about Gnosticism because that's your brand and stuff like that. But when I hear you talk, I hear a broader kind of Gnosticism that I love because, as I said in the intro, I so respect that you have had all these battles. And I know what it's like to prepare for those battles every week. And whether they're battles, friendly battles or not, they're intellectual exercises and you go to so many different places. So how is that fitting in your understanding of this, of that darkness, your own personal shadow and projected out? Well, yeah, I mean, that's a good point about the shadow. What did the Jungians say? A shadow is everything I do not wish to be. But what I do not wish to be means it's inside me. I mean, all of us have a dark, we are both a mixture of darkness of light and we have the ability to commit great atrocities. I mean, history shows it over and over Germans who turn their faces away from the Jews and so many other places. So we do have a shadow and if we don't watch that shadow, if we don't entertain the darkness inside of us or at least understand it, it will project itself in terrible ways. I mean, some movements, even like a course in miracles, everything is a projection, the good and the bad. And you're just playing a game with others of how to work things out in your brain. So at the same time, this is acceptance, which is an amazing thing of the darkness within me, the heaven and hell. I myself am heaven and hell as Omar Kayam, the Persian poet said, has also taught me that even beyond the darkness with me that can do so much damage to myself, to the world and to others. There is probably an ontological evil outside even beyond. There are evil spirits, there are evil forces. I think as even Jung himself admitted there is probably a dark archetype. He called it the devil. And when he was having correspondence with Bill W, the founder of AA, because Bill W was trying to understand how do we alcohol because we get a little drink and we do this horrible shit to others. And Jung was like, it is, I call it the devil, but we can call it the dark archetype. It's a principle of destruction and it just exists to cause pain across the universe and an incredible amount of destruction. I wouldn't even say like, I don't know how Hinduism works with Kali and Shiva. Is it a quick, but this is kind of torturous, artistic pain upon others. And as you're talking about these satanic groups, you wonder, is this because of the dark archetype? Or I think Jason Louve, somebody who's been on your show and you two had a wonderful conversation about the environment. But he on Twitter, something, he brought something out from his divine self. He said, the great choice in this century is going to be between entertainment and ecstasy. And it's become sort of a tagline because I look at these elite who they get addicted to a little bit of that entertainment. There's that money. There's that women. There's that property. And that's not enough. You want more of that rush. You want more of that intensity that makes you feel godlike and superior. And before you know it, you're taking that entertainment into very addictive, very intense areas and you're doing atrocities. You couldn't believe you were doing beyond the whole blackmail of the elite and maybe deals and dark magic that you eventually get to do. But I think these days that's kind of where I am with the whole evil shadow thing. It's the shadow and the archetypal evil. So it's just got more complicated and harder, but I love it. You actually said something kind of interesting in terms of the agency of a benevolent force in the extended consciousness realm. That's a very controversial topic in in the communities that we're in, you know, is this all just a manifestation of our shadow or is there the connection with something we can't say real all the words fail us here. So you kind of come down on the side of there are entities that are looking to co-mingle with us in a benevolent way. Yes, and that's we're talking about alternative science. I recently had Jerry Marcinski and he and Jerry Sweeney have written this great book about again the failure of traditional medicine has been schizophrenia a complete failure for 100 years. I mean, it's just the pain and destruction of schizophrenia is like it's a pandemic when you think about the millions that die every year and they talk about these mind parasites who come and destroy us. And of course, that aligns well with certain thinkers like David I John lamb lash Lawrence Galleon and so forth that about that. And when you treat these and young even said the same when you treat them as their evil entities, you might not have a proof, but the proof will will be that your patient will heal 10 times 100 times faster than with traditional medicine or believing that there is no evil, or believing that some God is it's there's a purpose and he's going to take care of you if you have faith. So yeah, that's it. That's the picture right there. So that kind of attitude again as we're shifting towards evil that has done more good for the schizo for the people suffering from schizophrenia than the pharmaceutical industrial complex has done for certain. And I think, again, that's one way it's interesting. And again, it's almost like a shift in your thinking. I mean, it was strange because I don't know if you've heard of Lon Milo Duquette. He's a great guy. He's really one of the leading occultists in the last 30 years. He knew Israel regarding and I had him on the show a month ago and asking about evil. And he did not. This guy has done ceremony after ceremony from the OTO to the Hermetic Golden Dawn. I mean, he has been out there with the spirits and he's not going to accept that there is evil. He wouldn't accept it. Of course, I completely disagree with him. And when the shift in thinking is what one blogger said very well, in our culture, you always ask, how did evil come into the world? In Gnosticism, you start with, how did good come into the world? You shifted to realize this is a hostile place beyond the germs and the animals and the tornadoes want to kick your ass. This is a place where there's evil spirits walking around. And as we've seen by humanity in the world, at least from my perspective, this is their turf and they've been kicking our asses for thousands of years. Look at civilization. Although in that same interview that you're talking about with Jerry Marzinski and Sherry Sweeney, there's the clip and you just actually said the clip that I was going to play or the quote I was going to give you. What matters are that these predators are real or should be treated as real. And it was just classic Gnostic, Miguel, Connor, moment for me where the universe cracks open. It's like, no, Miguel, that is the entire world of, you know, they're real or they should be treated as real. That is to me the essential question. And it's one that we keep pounding on. And you did a great job of saying that from a healing modality standpoint, you have to treat them as real. There's another level of just kind of a consciousness from a scientific kind of materialism idealism kind of thing. None of this stuff is real from a simulation theory, none of this stuff is real. We're somewhere always in this middle ground of what is real and what are we treating as real. And it seems to be, again, I've returned to the question of, does evil give us a different vantage point to examine that question. Yeah, and I mean, and of course, then you have suffering is suffering suffering as part of the universe. But is that really evil? That's where it gets complicated. There's the parable, the Buddhist parable that I think of where you've got the the tadpole is born and daddy frog is talking to him and the tadpole is like, Dad, what's the land going to be like and the daddy frog is like you're you're immersed in water. I can give you metaphors and analogies but until you get there. You won't know and that's I think evil is real. I think Sherry Sweeney who was schizophrenic and found these man parasites. I think they're real. But until she was able to get out of that water. How was she going to be able to describe it and we do the best we can. Again, I, I think they're real but sometimes it's almost I think you was doing it too. It's like, well, try this way. Let's try an alternative way instead of the drugs that are killing you and robbing you of your agency and numbing your soul and all that. So I know there's a bit of a fast, I don't know, switch and bait. We treat them like real but I think if we can help some schizophrenics or alcoholics or addicts who I mean, as I've had a guest like Susan Martinez who wrote the the field guide to spirits. She talked about how when you look at alcoholics or serial killers and then you compare them to possessed people in Europe and Africa, they're exactly the same behavior, exactly the voices in the head, the dysfunctional relationships. It's right there. So you start to see this really is about spirit and demon possession and how are you going to treat it. But everybody is so trained with the science, scientism and the scientific method. They're not, it's hard to get people to try something. I didn't want to try something different 20 years ago when I was on meds. Even though I was praying and going to Buddhist, I still thought the meds were the ultimate cure because this is Darwin's world. Yeah, that's really interesting. What is the fear of going the alternative route in particular going the alternative spiritual route for people who are in those kind of desperate throws because it almost you know logically would seem to be the opposite would seem to be well I'll try everything but that isn't really how it feels is it. No, no. And the worst part where the big joke is is that these meds and these treatments block your chakras and your channel so you can start meditating or doing yoga or what did Sherri Sweeney do. She was doing rikey and they will block your channels of communication with the higher forms of consciousness or even to expand your consciousness and it. It's hard. I mean I've I remember doing like some rituals with ayahuasca on meds and now I realize I really robbed myself about 90% of that mystical experience that other people were having around me that helped them. So that's the the destructive and even the meds are our belief systems are so hard that can block us out too. So it's it's unfortunate. I mean, yeah, it's it's iconic what they've done. I want to play another clip, one from an interview kind of a person person interview you did which you haven't done too many of those, but it was with the very excellent Richard Smalley, you know, Oxford train bestselling authors written all these fantastic books, a Christian, but a Christian critic as well. I want to talk about Christian bashing cults and conspiracy and because I think they play into part in another part of this evil is the deception and you know that's right out of kind of the Christian motif. Yeah, it's great to see you're a Satan. Hey, that is so we're going to talk about that because I mean, look for for the mystic and for the Gnostic conspiracies like what do you mean I mean it's all conspiracy. It goes with your tea in the morning. Exactly your daily routine. And you would think it would for the Christian as well because, you know, any just honest read of their narrative it's all about conspiracy right and, but it is today Alex I mean have you talked to Q and on people I mean this is the their Christianity is completely embedded with conspiracy I mean the the child thing and Satan and aliens I mean on so many my wife is she's well no she's becoming Greek Orthodox and she's embedded in Q and on so it's the full Gnostic package. Hopping over to another thing you were my entry drug for Joe Atwell. I think it's fantastic and I've had him on the show a bunch of times including some kind of debates with religious scholars, people who don't know. Joe at well wrote a very influential book called Caesar's Messiah that met this wild conspiratorial claim that the Bible is pro Roman. Don't go bother checking but every religious scholar if you really read carefully will go yeah it's kind of strange how could the Bible be pro Roman I mean, there are the ones who killed Jesus why would we have a pro Roman Bible. And remember that these are the Gospels before Constantine before it becomes the state religion why are the original Gospels. According to you know Wikipedia or ultimate source on everything pro Roman well, again I'm talking inside baseball here folks but if you go listen to Miguel's interviews with Joe at well or my interviews with Joe at well or. Greg Carlaw just had a nice interview series with Joe at well it just. There's some historical aspects to it that are just kind of undeniable that the Romans had a hand in influencing the Gospels that is conspiratorial but then. So you want to jump to the Q and on thing where I was going to go is. You know if you just take the straight narrative right out of the Bible. It's it's a conspiracy at every level from you know God conspiring you know against him for man or man conspiring or just it's just a story of one conspiracy after another. So it's always remarkable to me when you know with the fact that conspiracy seems to be a problem for the non Q and on Christians you know you're kind of mainstream Christians it's like oh no. And I think especially for those who are more in the Greek Orthodox like was it a neon he's the big Q and on he's Greek Orthodox. Maybe not so much J Dyer J Dyer is obviously not Q and on he's very anti Q and on. But if you read the work of let's say Greek Orthodox scholar who excellent scholar David Bentley Hart. Yeah and he basically says everybody misunderstands Paul here's how you understand Paul the Jesus and Paul is a Jesus that comes to defeat the Arkans who have taken over the world. So right there you've got the seeds of conspiracy of the matrix in Paul's letters. And of course the Gnostics ran with that story 2000 years ago but even the Greek Orthodox Church a morning it makes sense. I mean what does Jesus say or what does Satan say in the Gospel of Mark all the kingdoms are mine. He owns the world and Jesus is there the little guy trying to fight Satan in the desert and trying to get away. So you're right it is the seeds are there because that was probably the original thing. You know the original story until like you said which I agree for Rome because the powers that be always weaponize anything they can get their hands on. It's just the way it is nothing is going to change. You know again switching gears like I love to do but I just had an interview with the very excellent. Riz Verk who is this kind of all the top genius computer gamer kind of guy started the MIT game lab really successful as an entrepreneur and as wrote a book on the simulation hypothesis. Yeah that interview great interview. Oh good I'm glad you glad you appreciated that I appreciate a lot of things he had to say one of the things that stuck with me is the if they can they will kind of thing. So you know he said at the core of the simulation hypothesis that a lot of people are talking about is you say OK we all get technologies advancing even if you don't buy into the singularity thing you say gee in my lifetime you know. Peter's gone from a huge room down to a little phone it's going to continue it's going to advance. And then the real kind of Gnostic Harkon thing if they can they will. And if we think about that from our own life experience you know whether it's human cloning and the guy in China just got you know put in jail for human cloning right. We're not going to do any human cloning if you could work on of course we're going to do human course of course I mean it's already been done. We know that but if you can do it you do it and that really kind of hit me square in the head like that applies everywhere. So whatever you think you know is like as soon as the thought of the most vicious evil manipulative thing you can think about somebody's going to do it. Yeah it's entertaining. I think that's it. Remember ecstasy or entertainment ecstasy is leaving your body and expanding your consciousness being flooded with incredible joy that gets you but entertainment is just well you can just look at society. That's what the whole world is about. Let me entertain you. Here we are entertainers Netflix experiments and the lead take it way up and of course scientists want to take it one step. You know there's another side to the entertainment thing also remember always remember a quote from the Shirley McClain who I think will go down as an underappreciated kind of mystic who was out there with astral travel and all that stuff and imagine. Talk about being on the frontier and all the he's a pioneer huge pioneer in the 70s when nobody I mean it was all sort of psychedelic drugs and all that stuff. I'm glad she took it really to the holistic Blavatsky original intentions of the movement. I heard an interview with her and the guy was getting on her pretty good and she goes look. We're all ultimately here to entertain each other and I think that takes maybe what Jason's saying in a different direction. Why do we why do we denigrate entertainment. Maybe that is our ultimate purpose at some level if we think multiple unlimited lives and karma get out to the nth degree. But I think that's a problem because remember in the Shirley McClain model there is no room for evil because it's just a learning experience and we're all reflections of each other. And that's very dangerous in my view because again you're turning your back on that ontological evil those evil spirit dark archetype and the horrible thing. And then of course with these groups and you end up with this horror. This is what Mitch Horowitz said the problem with New Age is a whole victim shaming. You know it's like oh gee Alex you just got cancer. I guess it's your karma. Oh you got the rate by 20 you know bikers. You must have had a shitty life or you have something to work out or there's some destiny. Instead of just calling that what it is evil and we need to stop it. Well that's incredibly interesting you know and we certainly need to go there a little bit. So take Rich Martini wrote a book and did a movie called flip side and Rich Martini is kind of this Hollywood producer type really cool guy. He got interested in the lives between lives work of Michael Newton and then he particularly got interested in the work of these folks who do between lives. So you know people cannot like that research but at some point when you get in there there's some really solid parts to it. I mean Michael Newton was an LA hypnotherapist who physicians would send patients to who they believe just had psychosomatic illnesses. So a guy his original regression was a guy who had a shoulder injury and he keeps going to the doctor's my shoulder my shoulder and finally doctor's done. You know refer him over to Michael Newton because he doesn't have any real shoulder problem. And so Michael Newton can get rid of your Michael Newton is past but he can get rid of and I'm telling the story for the benefit of list terms that maybe haven't heard it. I think you probably know it but he's helping people get over fear of spiders fear of water all the typical things back in the 70s. I think this is maybe 60s where Michael Newton is practicing in Los Angeles and he's stubbornly can't fix this guy's shoulder. He goes no I want you to go back further further further to this shoulder injury. The guy goes I'm on a battlefield. We're in this trench. Oh no I've been stabbed in the shoulder and so you get the thing and Michael Newton is somewhat of a history buff. So he gathers he even kind of breaks protocol and gathers a lot of information from this guy. It turns out the guy he's able to trace down the guy's life in in in World War One and verify some of the stuff. Long story for us. Fast forward ahead to rich martini flip side. He starts going to these conventions between lives. He's witnessing a regression. So here's the punchline. Miguel had to take a long time to get there. And then as regressed. She says oh I'm in the Holocaust. I'm walking into the gas chamber. I want to resist and then I realize I'm with my people and I will just go and face my destiny. Now I'm past. I'm dead. And now I look down and I see my perpetrator. I see the Nazi guy who dropped the gas into my tank. And I realize the burden that he carries is far greater than what I'm carrying. And I love that story and I hate that story. I hate that story for all the reasons that you're saying the oversimplified karmic you're here for reasons kind of stuff. But there's something about that story that seems inescapably true in a way. Yeah I mean it's obviously the power of forgiveness of letting go which is letting go of your karmic. Of course the power of understanding. Was the Nazi really evil or was he afraid. Was he ignorant as the Nazi would say he was taught a bunch of propaganda that the Jews were inferior. Was he just somebody who was taught like the Japanese kill you know bayoneting Chinese babies when they invaded that he was just thought that duty was the ultimate form of duty. Divinity and whatever was below it was not evil as long as you were following the divine emperor of your country. Well let's lead it back to I want to do some Christian bashing because I'm always accused of Christian bashing. You're late. Yeah. Can't imagine. I had a guest on and I really appreciate having this guest and I liked him and respect him. His name is Russ Dizdar and he's an evangelical minister but also has done some real boots on the ground investigation and helping people recovering from satanic ritual abuse. Which is a real ringer because if you're involved in that no one wants to hear anything beyond satanic panic and it's like no that's it's real. More real than that. Yeah yeah whether we can pack it back into the biblical Satan is a whole other question. And I don't think we can but that's the jumping off point and that's where it starts getting interesting and you can never get there right because you have one side that's like not happening couldn't happen can't possibly happen. Because there is no evil. There is no Satan. You know we're biological robots in meaningless universe. That is the kind of standard kind of view. And then the Christian on the other side view is oh no I'll tell you exactly how it happened when we just pull the gospel up and this is the limited way that we can understand it. And then you look at their thing and they say well they kind of have a point. I mean you did put Satan in there as part of the ritual abuse thing so that's right there you know. Yeah it makes no sense though because you're still having in the Christian dispensation unless again it was evangelicals that I've met maybe this guy you talked to. They're the honest ones because they do say if we read the Bible literally Satan is in charge of the kingdoms of the world. And if we read Paul the way Paul should be read the archons of powers and principalities are in charge of this world. Good has to come into this world in the form of Jesus. So but most say well God is still in charge and somehow he gives Satan this sort of sadist this resentful angel. A little bit of free will to sort of work his way here and work his way that and then run back to hell which makes absolutely no sense. And even and then the question how he's asking I said does what happens if Satan gets his hands on the book of Revelation and says holy shit I don't want this to end this way. This doesn't look good for me. So whatever the book of Revelation tells me I'm going to do exactly the opposite. Well he has no choice. Well that goes right back to God right. So Satan has no free will. He's just a puppet like all of us of some divine plan. I mean now you've got like let's listen to rush in the song free will. And let's take it on. Let's take it in another direction. Yeah I'm going to play this clip in a second from Richard Smolley and I really appreciate his book. I think it's how God became God. I'm missing that. Is that exactly okay. And so you just go back back in history and it looks really tough. I mean Satan just slips right through your fingers right. So you go all the way back and you got Yahweh the Thunder God and there's no Satan in these stories. And then the Zoroastres come in and the Egyptians and some other stuff comes into the culture and all of a sudden same story. Now there's a Satan. Well that's that folks is is like how we do literary analysis slash archaeology slash and that's you can't get around that. Put the Humpty Dumpty back on the wall on that. So you've interviewed Smolley. We're going to talk about him. I'm going to play this clip in a minute. But what about that? What about the historical Satan just. No I think you hit it on the head. I mean if you if you read the book of Job and all that Satan or even the stories of David Satan is just God's prosecutor. He's sort of God's tester of humans sometimes as executioner. He's one of the angels. In early Christian texts he's even called the first born. He's really the God's right hand enforcer and then you have of course mixing in with Zoroastrianism. Zoroaster is one of the most you know spiritual geniuses in all of history because he came up with the idea that this there is a force of good and evil who are basically evenly matched. You've got Armand the Lord of Darkness and Ahura Mazda the Lord of Light and they're in this fight. Of course now we know that Mithras is sort of the God in between working with it. And this and of course the idea of an apocalypse the idea of a higher self or guardian angels. I mean he came up with Zoroaster came up with so much a genius and he definitely affected when the Jews were in Babylon and then the Persians came and liberated Zoroastrianism. Zoroastrianism came into their matrix the Jewish matrix and Satan basically got rebooted and to a new figure. He became the bad guy. He became Dr. Evil or your your Bond villain and but again Christians can't make up their mind at least in Zoroastrianism. There is sort of they're evenly matched and we'll see who's the smartest one at the end of the day. We assume good will be but in Christianity. It's again well Satan's kind of has no power close to God but he still has his power to start wars and pestilences and seduce people and then God sort of allows him to do his shit but doesn't allow him but he has no free will. So it's again we get a lot of into a lot of theological acrobatics that haven't helped the sanity of Christianity for the last 2000 years. Let's close the loop on the satanic ritual abuse thing because there's few people I can kind of get to this level with and talk about like you're saying yeah it's it's very real. And so we take the realness of it which means there are people who are actively engaged with trying to connect with this spiritual force. That they feel is is bringing something into their their name for gain right for whether it's some kind of sadistic pleasure or whatever. But they what do we think what do we what do we imagine is going on there in these two realms in between our realm and that realm and then you know in kind of a total co-creation of reality way. If we think that Satan slips through our fingers historically but they are going with some kind of biblical definition of that entity. What is that telling us about that ultimate reality. I know you get what I'm saying and they're naming it Satan but I don't think they're even getting to the biblical Satan. Let me make sure we understand what I'm showing I'm saying like you go talk to Russ Dizdar right. And Russ good guy law enforcement guy worked in law enforcement was a chaplain but also taught at you know law enforcement police academy kind of stuff and still teaches courses on satanic ritual abuse. And he's like Alex this is not in a lot of these guys matrix their worldview and that's why I have to go teach it. They get to the scene and they don't know an inverted kind of Graham from a Wicca symbol and all the rest of this he goes where I live. He was a good guy I liked him he's like you know there's a we have gangs here in Ohio gangs have different signs. If you don't understand the gang signs the gang graffiti the dress you're going to be kind of on the outside in Chicago. Yeah same old Chicago Chicago's next level baby. But his point is what is well taken he says there is a there is a reality to this that's kind of inescapable and part of that reality is that they claim to be connecting with Satan and they'll you know in the Latin they'll be saying Satan. Yeah rituals and we do so what do we think is going on there I mean is it a talk bug co creation like if you want to if you want to manifest Satan you can get you can get. Yeah that's another wrinkle to it the whole idea of egregors or told us that if we believe something our psychic energy will create this entity in this being to do our will. So that's definitely another wrinkle to it and if you have a lot of jerks doing it and they will create everything like one of the biggest religions right now in North America is Santa Muerte the goddess of death is rising very popular. Could we consider her evil. Who's the interview you did an interview with the woman who is that. Oh my God I forgot her name I have her book too. Yes I have to look. But yes she wrote a great book on Santa Muerte and there's other scholars that are coming with great work because this is a deity or an entity that's becoming very popular so and it could be like the Neil Gaiman concept you have these weak entities but the more we believe in them more power we give them we surround it with surround them with our psychic power with our belief with everything else. I think I had James true recently and he made a good argument that whether it's the lead or the spirits they they they feed on our belief our very Prana when we believe in something we're giving them our Prana and we're giving them power. Interesting. So kind of winding it back to the Christian thing and the Christian bashing. We've already done some Christian bashing without even realizing it see we think we're just talking about history here and we're actually bashing bashing bashing. Kind of standing up for Satan in the Bible which is but whatever. Let me play this. Because. What are we supposed to believe. God got mad at the human race for eating a piece of fruit in Armenia 6000 years ago. He got so mad at the human race that he condemned everybody to eternal damnation. Except he kind of felt bad about this afternoon. So he said a part of himself down to have it tortured to death would somehow made it all all right. Except not really because if you don't buy this story you're still going to fry forever. Does that make any sense in any kind of course it doesn't. It's phrased in of course elaborate theologies and rituals and doxologies but it's still a ridiculous story. So tell us about this interview and just as much as you like to tell us about him. Yeah it was a great interview I went down to the Theosophical Society down in Wheaton over here. And Richard works there and we grabbed one of the rooms and we did a one on one interview on his new book on the theology of love which is based on a course with miracles and of course at the time Mary Ann Williamson was a candidate she was very popular a lot of interest. So his book basically talks about the start of it is how Christianity has failed traditional Christianity has failed. You and I have already made some points in this interview and how a more different type you could even say psychological or cerebral form of Christianity like a course in miracles is more suited for the modern times. And of course he talks we're talking about evil he's talking about the book of Genesis. God gets mad at a couple of people dams him for life and then he has to basically turn himself into a human and commit suicide to release us from a prison that he himself cast into us and it's a great lesson of how gullible human beings are. I mean if people bought that and I think at one point I'm sure you and I bought it I know I did when I was a kid. Millions of billions of people buy it if we can buy such a story with so many holes theological holes people will believe anything. I mean they'll believe something that's even maybe even dumber or a little bit smarter but again this idea of how we're all doomed as really failed. And one of the reasons Christianity is going the traditional Christianity is going the way of the dodo with you right up until the end they're going the way of the dodo. I'm not sure because what I thought was so fantastic about that is a religious scholar of his repute just being so direct because we just can't get people just to talk directly so many times you certainly do. You certainly do but this is an insane cosmology. This doesn't make any sense and it's ingrained into the fabric of our culture. You cannot get elected to any office unless you agree with this. You read the quotes of the last four person go read the Obama quote on his belief in Jesus. You think you're at a big tent revival. It's incredibly over the top Jesus save your son of all the stuff. Oh but you want to hear something shocking. You know that Republican Congressman I think Dan Crenshaw he's got the iPad she lost it in the Afghanistan war of all and I don't like him. I don't like neocons very much but he was in an interview and ask him what do you think of Jesus. He said well he's an archetypal hero. He's the image of a force. I was like it's the first time I've seen a politician go Joseph Campbell Gnostic young to the mainstream media. It's like that gives a little hope doesn't it Alex. He'll never be elected. He's in Congress. He's in Congress. He'll never be president. Never be president right. It's like you know whether. But we haven't each president. I mean we've got somebody who was a church of Norman Vincent Peel Donald Trump. I mean the Trump is not a Christian. He's a new age. Well not according to what he not what he speaks now. Right. I mean he kind of sings a different tune now which is you know I mean I don't want to go too far in the presidential thing because I guess the little hair splitting that I do with you on that is. I think we have to be honest about cults and how Christianity is a cult. I mean there's just no no two ways about it. How do you define cult. That's often that's what everyone throws up you know what's called you know what's called how do you define it. It's like I think a certain collection of evidential points kind of pile up to the point where you see. So you start pulling it apart and you say OK is Catholicism a cult at this point is the kind of outing of the kind of rotten to the core institutionalized sex trafficking sex abuse all the way up to the pope. Does that suggest that at some institutional level it's completely different than what it appears to be. Is this starting to sound like a cult. You know is there people who have been entrained over a period of time to kind of respond a certain way. You know is this starting to sound like a cult. So when when people get kind of triggered with the term cult I don't like the cult definition that I get from an academic religious studies group that doesn't even acknowledge that consciousness exists. I mean there's like that doesn't even fly. So that's the conclusion I come from from Richard Smollett. That sounds cultish when you have a cosmology that is that absurdly insane and it's completely absorbed into the system. There are cultish elements at play there in my opinion but you might disagree. Tell me how you disagree. No I mean it's again it's interpretation. Not everybody in ancient Christianity really saw it that way. The Gnostics didn't even see that way. They had different variations of the book of Genesis. This is something that was even later on in early Christianity the way it said. I mean even if you look at the text the serpent there's nothing in there that says that the serpent is Satan. That's like a later addition. The serpent was just some sort of trickster spirit or animal that was in there. So and Christians had debates of what it meant and what it did. It's again those who were able to weaponize Christianity. It's almost like if they come up with the most insane or ludicrous idea and they can get people to believe it that shows how powerful they are. But it also shows it really makes them I think it makes them giggle that they're able to get away with such not and it brings cognitive dissonance to people down the road because all of us who've gotten out of religion or these oppressive religions or traditional religions. We were also almost in pain and we question and it would hurt our heads and our psyches like what's the flood and killing babies and I don't you know and it causes damage to our psyche and maybe we're just easily controlled by the more ludicrous ideas. That's kind of an interesting idea. Here's a quote that is right out of a on bite. It's our friend. Hitting the bottom isn't a weekend retreat. It's not a goddamn seminar. Stop trying to control everything and just let go. Tell us about that quote and yeah. And then let's talk my club the great Gnostic saga and that's it's what else does Tyler Durden say it's only after you've lost everything that you can do anything. And of course this you find the saying in Buddhism and so many traditions that the only way to see heaven in a wildflower infinity and a grain of sand is just to let go of all the conditioning the material the lights of this world and just see the universe. And of course for many of us it's the old does the caterpillar looks like it dies which is rock bottom but what it is is simply the the ultimate collapse of the ego and the rise of the spirit. So I think that's what to me Tyler Durden is say just let go of the wheel wheel of karma. So where I want to poke is I want to explore the possibility that the occult maybe even some of the Gnostic spin on this and especially the magic as it's been popularized and as you know coming out so strong right now is a giant in this step. In the same way that you kind of jumped to both sides of that Tyler Durden quote. The quote is great. The movie takes us in a different direction. We don't have to take it that way. So from a yogic from a non dual standpoint, I am the creator of this illusion that's going on in my consciousness. But the liberation of that isn't to do sketchy stuff. It's just to truly let it go and not participate in it to not try and gain more power but to let go in a way that seems markedly different from the way I see the occult being offered as the occult weekend retreat the magic weekend retreat. Yeah, the narrator who is later obviously find out to be Tyler Durden is a struggle with him and his higher self is trying to get away from the consumer society and all that and that scene that the quote is from is when they're driving and they decide to put on their seat belts and Tyler says I'm not going to drive and wherever the car takes us it will take us. It crashes their survives and Tyler says we just had a near life experience saying that sometimes the rush of letting go in the danger of letting go but itself as a metaphor I think it's an incredible movie. Well I think it's an incredible movie. What I'm reaching for is something a little bit different. I'm a big Michael Singer untethered soul fan. I like the way he kind of talks about this yogic non dual transformation in that that letting go in that sense isn't a rush isn't a fantastic experience. It's an uncomfortable experience because what you're letting go of is the pattern that you've held on to to either hold on to something good or to push away something bad and the process of letting go is a difficult one in a different way than I think I hear from the occultist generally and especially the magic people who are doing this backdoor materialism thing. It's like you are going to do magic so that you can gain more power. No, fuck that. I don't want more power. What I want is, you know, the Michael Singer story is this. It's like your first girlfriend and you're in love with her and the next day you're driving through town and you see low and behold you see a blue Corvette and you see her head going down on the driver's side. And you're like, Oh my God, she's cheating on me with that guy in a blue Corvette. And what happens is from now on whenever you see a blue Corvette, even when you're a 50 year old man, you still you can't you don't even realize that something's going on. Well, the thing is, it wasn't really your girlfriend ever. You just thought it looked like her. And then the blue Corvette got in there and you don't know how that got in there. And your entire existence, the entire me that you've created inside your head is just a series of these misrepresentations and misunderstandings. And then when I hear not when I hear the occult and the magic, it's just adding on to that. It's like, Okay, we know we can get you out of that. We just need more power and more this instead of saying, No, what we need to do is undo that by realizing that there might be that divine spark that you talk about so often on your on your show, which is always there. And there's there's no need to do anything. It's addition by subtraction of taking away what we've become, you know, what we think we've become by thinking. No, I think that's well said, Alex. It's again, whether it's the magician, most people don't want transformation, they don't want to chemical, they just want to add a little bit more or make life a little bit more bearable, take away a little bit of the pain so I can make it through the day. So Miguel, it's been absolutely terrific having you on and I appreciate you spending so much time with us. Tell folks anything that might be going on and invite that they should look out for and anything else in your life. No, I think I am. The show is really growing an incredible guest this year on topics which I hope to be addiction mental disease with the usual Gnostic tinge and great show. I again will be doing a lot of YouTube lives increasing the podcast and making myself more available in online communities as we try to get through this crazy year so It's been growing like Richard Smolley show, which I did live other things videos that I did who are the gods I'm sort of I'm I'm grabbing these as they come and just going for it taking more risks. So look for more risks for a young bite this year, including hopefully this other podcast which I would like to call it finding Hermes because and going right back to Richard Smolley. He's the one who said, look, Hermes is both the God of the mind and the God of the tricks. The Greeks did this on purpose because the greatest trickster is is the mind greater than any Satan or any Demiurge or tricks and you and I have talked about in the show people who have completely diluted themselves, countries, nations, religions will just blink and end up in ignorance and self delusion. So finding Hermes is I think something our society should do a little bit more find out the the trick in the mind itself.