 Welcome back to PlusPolitics. The Chandler Good Governance Index has ranked Nigeria as the third worst governed country in the world. The CGGI ranked Nigeria 102 out of 104 countries with a score of 0.319 points ahead of Zimbabwe and Venezuela. The report noted that the ability to adequately stem corruption is the strongest indicator of good governance. Worldwide, Finland topped the list with 0.848 points ahead of Switzerland and Singapore, but on the continent Mauritius scored 0.576 points, placing it at number 38 on the log and as Africa's best performer. Joining us this evening to discuss is Agogo Abu, a broadcast journalist and the Apple TV social reformer. Thank you both for your time and thanks for joining us. Thank you so much for having me. Alright, Agogo, I'm going to start with you. A lot of times when we have reports like this, the very first thing that people do is to check for the, where the Chandler Good Governance Index is and what exactly is it all about? Does it have the credibility to even rate anybody? So let's start with that. Do you think or would you say it has a good enough rating as an institution to rate Nigeria? Absolutely, it is. It is. And so what we see is that every time you have got reputable international organizations and individual rates or rating Nigeria, what you hear from the government is that they try to discredit those organizations as not being reputable enough to rate us. I was looking at that report today and it was with a very heavy heart that you know, I was reading that report, giving the fact that countries that yesterday, we would not even stand side by side, shoulder by shoulder with Nigeria. Today, are we ahead of us? When I was growing up as a child, every time I took my reports home and my father saw that I came to 11th or 15th, his question was always that who are those that are ahead of you? Are those people that are born by parents that do certain things that are different from what I do to you and your folks and your siblings? Are there people who have got more brains than yourself? Why did I add a few? My father sought to find that out every time I took my report card to him. And every time I did, you always made me understand that so long as it got one brain and it's got fathers and mothers like you have got, you have also got the capacity to do as well as they are doing or even do better than them. We're wondering today that in our case, do we have father? Do we have the mother? Do we have parents that indeed are catering to Nigeria so that Nigeria can do better than others? I heard of only Venezuela and Zimbabwe. It is pathetic, absolutely pathetic that on every ranking, on every index today, Nigeria is taking the plunge. It is sadonic, it is preposterous, and it speaks to the fact that the father is not present in the house. All right, hold on. I'm going to go back to bringing in Agogo Obu. Thanks for joining us once again. In the past, Transparency International and other organizations like that have brought about similar reports. The response from the Minister of Information a lot of times is always that those reports are unfair, seeing the great strides that President Mohammad Buwari has taken and the current administration has taken with infrastructure and with the economy getting us out of recession and some of all those other things. Would you say that that should be a similar response this time? Do you think it's unfair to rape Nigeria this way, seeing how much the government has invested in infrastructure and the likes? And this is to Andy once again, I guess we've lost Agogo again. So you are asking if it's fair to rape Nigeria the way they are rated? Yes, the Minister of Information very often would say it's unfair when organizations like this rape Nigeria, because they seem to ignore the great strides the current administration has taken in moving Nigeria forward. You know that saying when they say you play the ostrich. You know sometimes Nigerians will use that expression not understanding the exact name of what it is. You know the ostrich by design hides the face. You know, thinking that others are not saying, you know, the other part of a body. We should put a face in debris, put a face, you know, away from the others that are looking. Indeed, others are seeing other parts of the ostrich's body. This is exactly what the Minister of Information is doing. Together with most of the officials of this government. See, let me tell you, if you went to the UK today and you asked that they should tell you what is the formula, the physical formula for life. It will be the same with what you would see in England. It will be the same with what you would see in China. Okay, if that is too high for nothing. If you went to China today and you asked them what was the chemical component, so paracetamol. It is the same that you will see in London. It is the same that you will see in Canada. Why have I said all of this? I said this to say to you that the index for measuring the best amongst the countries is known to our Nigerian leaders. Go more simply and see that you have done better than these measurement standards that we used against you. For instance, in terms of leadership will be shown of leadership. It is not a role that you have provided leadership. In terms of accountability. It is not a role that you have provided accountability. In terms of the number of people that get killed by terrorist activities. It is not a role that you have a minimum level. If you look at that report, you will see what they used to measure the rest of the countries of the world. Ministers of information should speak to those issues. I should stop thinking that Nigerians are all done. Speak to those issues. There are standards that they have used to make this region, that they have used to make this finding, that they have used to make this conclusion. They are standards that are known. Come and debate these standards and show to these people that they have done better in these areas. They should never do that. I am going to read from the report. One of the things it says here is massive widespread and pervasive corruption affected all levels of government including the judiciary and security services. It also spoke about the COVID-19 pandemic which exposed the strengths and weaknesses in institutions, laws and leadership in countries like Nigeria. It takes us back to the conversation of corruption and the fight against corruption in Nigeria. Haven't we in any way taken any steps ahead? We have set up the Treasury single account. We have been able to retrieve a lot of stolen funds. Billions and billions of Naira according to the Minister of Information and of course for my EFCC Chairman Ibrahim Magu. Do these things count for something? This government is so corrupt that they make the corruption under Goodlock Jonathan's administration in Fanta. Imagine what they studied with the school feeding program. How much they said they used to feed children who were at home? Imagine what they spent with children. They went to Bahrain to go and design logo for airline. People forgot him that. They went to Bahrain to design logo. Millions of Naira. They died and told us that Nigeria was going to come back. What has happened? This government is so corrupt that I am trying very hard. That God will give us a good president on 2023. I don't know how that is going to happen. I am praying that God will give us a good president. I guess we are all praying together. Let's bring in Agogo Obu. I don't know if you are also praying along with him for a good president in 2023. But I want your reaction so we have not been able to hear from you this evening. I was hoping that there would be some way that we could at least put forward the great strides of the Nigerian government in corruption with our economy. We somehow struggled out of a recession. Of course, the amount of money that have been recovered in fight against corruption. Shouldn't these things count for something when we are being rated by these organizations? Interesting conversation so far. I think if we put into perspective what the real issues are facing the Nigerian state. You look at maybe issues concerning planning. Nigeria has got a population of over 200 million people. One in five people in Africa is from Nigeria. If you look at all the developed indices where if you look at the human development index which has been running for several decades now. Nigeria has measured pretty low on all of the major indices education, healthcare, infrastructure, all of the things that matter to everyone. Housing. The deficits are so huge that for any seismic change to happen you would have to match resources with planning. And so far it doesn't happen. Even the country's warehouse data organization as far as the country's data is. Just take for example the NBS doors on a market basis in terms of how spending happens. You see that we are caught between the rock and the half place in the way spendings have happened. Last year in Nigeria we had 3.4 trillion Naira. We spent 3 trillion Naira servicing debts. Living 400 trillion Naira for capital expenditure. We spent 400 billion Naira most of it probably got into recurring expenditure. If you look at how much we borrowed, 5 trillion Naira. We spent 4 trillion paying salaries. There were 1.2 trillion we said put into also capital expenses. It shows the sort of dire streets the country's economy is. Alright, we seem to have lost our boy again. It's a struggle getting you to speak with us this evening. I was just going to quickly share from January 2021, a response by the minister of information line Mohammed fought in transparency international's re rating rather on Nigeria's corruption. And of course the news story there you know back then in January said line Mohammed falls transparency international says rating not a true reflection of anti-corruption agenda. I guess you're still with us. Alright, so while we wait for Agoguabo to join us again quickly also you were speaking about how you want the minister to respond. How do you think that they should respond at a time like this? And is it important that the Nigerian government they have 2 years to go. Is it important that they clarify on some of the things that they have done to show Nigerians that these ratings are false? Should I shut it? I do not think that they would have the capacity to objectively and adequately respond to some of these issues. These people came into power through propaganda. You know how Spelman miners quote unquote you know how they guide their people. So they will give to you what is not real and present it as real and take moments when you. The people presented to Nigerians what was not real and took votes from Nigerians. And they are unable to sustain that lie. Today I was watching videos of El Rufai Sola. And a lot of them all that they said a friend of mine had compiled and sent it to my inbox. I said watch all that they said yesterday that they were going to do. Today they are singing a different song. A president that contested 3 times. You have to tell me that he did not know the problems of the country. Today is the president that is going to go out of the country. They are—— They are not asking for the abyss. That is clearly lack of direction and where we should be going in this country by the current leadership. It's a failure that is monumental. It's a failure that is far people. It is a failure that can be seen by the blind. All right. And yet, we wish we had more time, but unfortunately, we need to go. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts with us. Apologies, I will go up for, of course, the network issues that you had. We really would have loved to speak with you. But Andy, thank you once again for joining us. Thank you so much, Malcolm. It was a pleasure. Thanks for staying with us. We'll go on a short break. And when we come back, of course, there would be a little bit more here on the program Plus Politics, we'll listen to what Nigerians have to say about the eventual issues concerning Minister Issa Pantami. I don't think he will definitely want to suck him because he's, you see, already is, the Pantami in his government is part of the cabal that is in his government. No, that is based on the president. The president, he should use his own discretion. He should use his own discretion. Being a president, for you to be a president, you should be aware to lead your people. So he should use his discretion to do that. The president usually acts slow. And I think for me, if somebody has been found to have a questionable, you know, past or anything, we have a lot of people in this country that can be ministers. If one, yes, they might say he has repented, well, nobody can actually tell about that really. But for me, if it's creating an issue, you know, and whether through investigation or so, it's found to be true. Nigeria, I know we are not used to designing. So it's easier for the president to just tell him, please move aside, let somebody else do it. I don't think the president will do that. But that was supposed to do. God disappointed us. I don't think the president will have any, any contrary issue being the man in question that he should be sad or not. Because before now, I think the minister was there. So before now, I think he has been doing whatever he's supposed to do. So for him to now come out and say that word, I mean, to say that opinion, I think is of no use for the president to sack the minister. Let the minister continue his work and let the president also continue his work. What we are looking for in this country is peace. Well, with the preponderance of atrocities being perpetrated by the bandits, Boko Haram and all these terrorists, and the view of Issa Pantami on the past about these terrorists and bandits, I think from personally, I think the, the president should remove him as a minister in this country. She cannot. Different Nigerians sharing their thoughts on Issa Pantami and now my take, the Chandler Good Government Index, Transparency International, or even the regular Nigerian on the street, whichever is your source for rating Nigeria, all sing about the same song. Our nation is currently going through maybe its most troubling times. For those struggling, rather from those struggling daily to find a meal, to those mourning loved ones lost to terror. And of course, to those also begging for the release of their loved ones in captivity. Bandits, terrorists, kidnappers, ethnic and religious tension, poverty, injustice. The list is endless. Nigerians are dying, soldiers even, you know, and of course our security agents also dying, even from friendly fire. We have gone past the stage where we expect anything so much from the government. We now just want and pray each day to survive as Nigerians. The Nigerian government needs to see the dangers that lie ahead. Even if the people are too burnt out to make demands, the government needs to open its eyes and see where we are headed as a nation. And that's my take. Thank you very much for joining us on the program this evening and see you next time.