 Everybody remember this slide, this picture from a national inquire because it was a disreputable, you know, journal? It's like, that's the one on the left, by the way. Early 2000, hackers can turn your computer into a bomb. Well, luckily, journalism has progressed since then. We've become more educated, more aware. Except for the telegraph, you know, July 24th, 2009, terrorists could use the internet to launch a nuclear attack. The hype is still going on because it's still a topic that will scare people, okay? What this talk is going to be about is not going to be giving you the answers, sorry. It's going to be giving you hopefully some questions and stuff, you know, that you can start a discussion on. You can start actually learning about what actual is cyber warfare and what it means and what we can do about it. A little bit about me. I've got two jobs. I've got a night job and a day job. My night job is on the CIO Strategy 1 Solutions, a pen testing company. We do penetration testing, consulting, incident response, corporate espionage. I've been an expert witness in a couple of R.I. cases against, not for. And also a couple of forensic analysis, you know, some of the fun stuff. My day job is on the AVP of a major financial institution where I do incident handling, IDS monitoring, firewall monitoring, you know, all the boring stuff. It's like, I say it halfway and just because I've had a lot of exciting attacks and stuff, you know, that have gone on during the work day that we've been able to respond to. And that's what I think is the key thing is that it's about having fun. I tell people if you're in information security because, you know, it's a good career choice, you're losing. Okay? It's like the other side is having a blast. We should too. And speaking of hackers, let's start off with one of the first ones that I know about, SunZoo. I tell people when you want to learn how to cook, you go to France. When you want to learn how to paint, you go to Italy. When you want to learn how to do military strategies, you go to China. It's like, that's where it's from. It's like 500 years ago, 500 BC, warfare was very simple in China. Okay? I take all my guys with sharp pointy objects. You take all your guys with sharp pointy objects, you run at each other. Okay? Whoever dies the most loses. Pretty simple, you know? SunZoo thought outside of the box. SunZoo decided to change the way those strategies were done. He would actually use the terrain to actually course the enemy or coax the enemy into terrain into situations that would benefit him. He did the first buff overflow by going into the valley and stuff, you know, and retreating and stuff, you know, and then letting his forces that weren't as numerous wipe the floor with his enemies. He did one of the first zero days. It's like he sent assassins into the general's tent. General's gone, war's over. Battle's won. So it's like, I think he's a hacker. So when I'm saying hacker, I'm not saying good hacker or bad hacker. I'm just saying hacker. Somebody thinks it's outside the box. So I don't want to get up into the labels. Also, just to show you exactly how current SunZoo is 2400 years later, this is a picture I took in San Paolo's airport at a bookstore. This book is being taught in Harvard and West Point. So it is definitely a good book to read. Let's go through the, well, we're halfway through the intro so far so good. You are still here. Awesome. Then we're going to talk about some of the caveats about what this talk is about and how we're going to do it. History, geography lesson that will hopefully keep you awake. Talk about some of the players and the haters and how everybody here is actually involved. And then hopefully a good discussion in Room 104, I'm sure, here also. Yes. No problem. I apologize. I wasn't here because of being a serious outbreak of the stupid. Okay. I need to make an announcement. Oh. Sorry about not being here for Spot the Fed. A serious outbreak of the case of the stupid came about. You know, it was just last night when I was telling the hotel security that when I came, I started Def Con 4 doing this and the kids at Def Con 4 were now bringing their kids to Def Con and how as a community and as a group we had matured past a lot of the dumbass things we used to do. Well, Murphy's Law, of course, I had to be proved wrong. Like I said, there's been a rash of an outbreak of the case of the stupid where several people now are going to jail for felonies. It's rare to see me this upset. I generally am an even-tempered person. I'm now very, very upset. We are, for lack of a better term, a community or a family. I expect better of you. Def Con 9 was our worst year in terms of things that happened. We almost didn't come back. Thankfully, you guys stepped up and we did come back. Please do not make an ass out of yourselves and us by degrading back to that level. If you see someone about to do something stupid, instead of going, either snitches get stitches or haha, that's going to be very funny, think for a minute, act your age, do not act like a 13-year-old, and stop them. If you are planning to bungee jump off the roof or you think it's funny to try to bungee jump off the roof, you will go to jail, you will face a felony, they will catch you, and we will be in more trouble. Is there anyone here who does not like the Alexis Park? Is there anyone here who would like to go to a hotel that's much worse than this? Please raise your hand. Because if you keep this up, we will not be here. Okay? I'm sorry to be a downer. I especially like the sun's zero date reference, that was pretty cool. I'm going to use that one myself, but I'm not going to credit you. Because I'm an asshole. But it's okay, I'm in touch with my inner asshole. Don't agree too vehemently there, thank you. And no, TMI is pictures and I'll be happy to provide them. Just for you. Your own personal health. What's that? Yeah, you can wait, sir. Matter of fact, for you, you're going to wait a little bit longer. So blame him. Sock full of quarters, meet him outside where there's no cameras. So please guys, seriously, knock off the ass-hattery. Okay, there's another incident where the fiance's in tears and the guy's walking out of here in handcuffs. He's going to spend at least two days in jail because they won't arraign him until Monday. And that goes for anybody else here. If you go to jail tonight, you're not seeing a judge until Monday. And remember, this is a casino. The rules are different here. They're much more severe. Please do not put yourselves or us in a position where they don't want us here. It just takes one asshole to screw it up for the rest of us. Okay? Thank you for your time. All the ways I could lose my train of thought, Jericho would be the worst. It's like... Okay. And I was where? Yes. For my first presentation, this is going epically. Awesome. It's like... So now what we're talking about is where did I get this information? What's going on? How did I get started in it? It's like a little shameless plug. I just wrote one book. I'm working on a second one. And that second book deals with the cyber warfare. Well, I want to be accurate. I want to try to get as much information as I can. And I started doing a lot of research on the internet about cyber warfare and different reports. I totally ripped off a lot of stuff from thedarkvisitor.com, which is an awesome website. And I started getting all this information together. And I was like, you know what? Maybe I can give a talk on it. So I gave a talk at a cyber warfare conference in Oklahoma City. And I realized one important thing. I'm reporting other people's work. All I'm doing is reading other people's research, forming my opinions on those. So I decided just within like a month, I got my passport for the first time. I went to Excon and Beijing. I went to CCC in Berlin. I spoke at a conference in Brazil. And I went to CISCAN in Shanghai and PH Neutral in Berlin. I started going to these places. I started traveling. I started trying to figure out exactly what's going on. Talking to the people that are there at these hacking conferences and these security conferences. What their opinions were of their country. What they thought was going on toward them from other countries. So I was talking to the Chinese hackers about the west attacking them as well as, you know, the east attacking the west. It's like it's a two-way street there. And so that's what started getting me understanding. It's like we're understanding topics. We're understanding incidents. We're not really trying to learn the culture and also the motivation behind a lot of this. And so that's where I started trying to start investigating, trying to figure out exactly what are the motivators. What are the things that we can foster discussion and start better understanding what this topic is? Awesome. Because you're doing so well. Yes. If there is a free seat, would you please raise your hand high. Everyone who is using the back of the body line here by the camera. Would you please come forward and take a seat. I just want to make sure that you cannot block the eye. All right. Thank you. Okay. There should really be something besides Diet Pepsi in here. And we're back. So one of the things I also want to make sure that there's a good caveat about, okay? This is my perception. This is my perspective from my experiences and the research that I've gathered. Okay? I tell people you take a diamond, you take that one facet, you pull it up to your eye, you're getting a distorted view. You're not getting the whole picture. It's going to be distorted. If you really want to appreciate the beauty of a diamond, you have to look away from it and look at all the facets. So I'm not saying I have the only facet. I'm not saying I have the only perception and that my case is this is the way it works. You have other evidence. You have other perceptions. You have other experiences that helps bring this together. And that's another key thing. We all have to get all the facets communicating so we can understand the picture a little bit better. Now let's start off. When I travel, I think this is a universal fact around the globe. We all have those cities that are out in the countryside. You know your neighbor. You keep the doors unlocked. It's like you know your kids can go out and play and everything will be fine, right? It's like a nice little wholesome little town. Well guess what? You put your computer on the internet in that nice little wholesome town. Your neighbors are Paraguay, China, Russia, the U.S., Canada, and they don't always like you. It's like you're an opportunity for a resource, for either political motivations, for criminal motivations. You know basically usually just money because they like sending spam. But that's what it's about. You're a number. You're no longer geographically fixated to one spot. You're now sharing bandwidth with the rest of the world, okay? That's one big global pool and when one person pees in it everybody's going to feel it. So that's what this is about. It's like you have to understand that there's a new way that we have to start thinking about geography. This quote from Ambrose Pierce is one of my favorites. Or is God's way of teaching Americans geography? Well guess what? We have to learn a new way because the battlefield is no longer based in the real world today. It's in the boardroom. It's in the dorm room. It's located in Kansas as well as D.C., New York as well as Kiev. That's where these battles are happening now. So yes, these are some of the people that we're going to be talking about. Yes, I'll probably be pissing some of them off, but that's just the way it goes. It's like we're talking about China, Russia. We're going to talk about some jihadism. We're going to talk about some of the more players that are out there. And of course, you know, I call out us and our friends. I'm not a sports player. I'm sorry. I don't know that much about football, but I was assured and someone guaranteed me that Terrell Owens fits the picture. He's very talented. He does very well, but he's got a very big attitude people like to knock on. Am I right? Is that correct? Okay, good. That's awesome. Because that's China. It's like very talented, very good at what they do, and people like to hate on them, and they've got a very bad attitude sometimes. What I'm talking about here, though, is I want to start off with the definition of the Red Hacker Alliance. Everybody's familiar with the D.C. Network, right? You're all part of D.C., something or other? Your air code, DC405, DC214, DC4420. Okay, well, that's what this is about. The Red Hacker Alliance is exactly like that. They're D.C. groups, so to speak. They're online communities of hackers in China. Well, what happened, and we'll get to that in a little bit later, is that they started to form an alliance. Say DC405 has got a problem, something's going on. They put out the message that they're having trouble. DC4420 decides to join them in that cause. DC214 decides to join them in the cause. Instead of having one little group, you now have an army of people going after and attacking websites or doing what the purpose is of that goal. When you're talking about the Chinese and the Red Hacker Alliance, you're talking during a mobilization over a million people. We're not talking about all Uberly hackers coming after you. If I get shot with one BB gun, I'm going to get pissed. I get shot with a million. The effects are going to vary. That's what this is all about. You also have to understand it's also about the numbers. Now let's get into some of the other things that we don't talk about that much. The culture. We always hear about China, but we don't really take time to really understand some of the stuff about China. A lot of the attacks, I think, are starting to lessen right now. This last year, it's like you haven't heard that much in the news about the Chinese attacking here or the Chinese attacking there. And one of my things that I learned while in my travels was one of the possible contributing factors is very simple. This is the year 6521. The Chinese have two astrological calendars. Those two calendars together form a 60-year cycle, which this is the ending of. So it's a very time of change, of things going one way or the other. Well, the ill omen part of this is 521. 5, 50 years ago, the Dalai Lama was asked to leave. It's like 20 years ago, there was a small incident in a square in Beijing, and 10 years ago, the Fulongong was outlawed in China. So those omens coinciding with what's going on, maybe we need to think about exactly why Green Dam is being formed now. Why are they shutting down these social sites? October 1st is the 60th year anniversary of the Ascension of Mao. So they're maybe a little nervous to try to get their deduction in a row. Also, you have to ask yourself, if a hacker is trying to lay low now, at the beginning of the new Chinese New Year next year, what are they going to unleash? What are they going to bring out and stuff out of the toolbox that they've been waiting for? I'm going to give you a comforting thought right there on that one. Another thing that really totally torques me, okay? That picture on the left is not China. That's not China. That's like saying, a whole picture of America, that's America. Okay, what about the Yankees and the Southerners and the East Coast, West Coast, you know, the whole two-pot biggie rivalry, come on. It's like, it's a multi-factor, multi-cultural country. If this country is multi-cultural, it's like, why aren't the others? In China, on the right, that's China. Multiple provinces, different languages, different cultures within those. And another little interesting fact, Shanghai hackers love hacking Beijing hackers. It's awesome for them, because they compromise those Beijing hackers' computers, form their botnets, take over their botnets, and then they lease those to other nation states, other criminal organizations, and then they're actually going in and you're getting an attack coming from China. There you go. Was that from China, or was that from the person sponsoring the Chinese hackers and paying them? They don't care if it says it's coming from China, because everybody likes to say that their attacks are coming from China. They're still getting paid, and then you've got the Beijing hackers hacking the Shanghai hackers and doing the exact same thing. And then once again, you get your attack coming from China. Another little tidbit, is they started this a long time ago. Well, in the internet years, it's a long time ago. 1997 was the formation of the Green Army by Goodwell. Back in 1988 was the anti-Chinese rise in Indonesia. That actually provided the catalyst. When I was talking about that, called out to the D.C. groups. In Indonesia, they were having a lot of hard feelings with the Chinese immigrants and the Chinese nationals. And there was beatings and attacks on Chinese nationalists in Indonesia. Well, that started the formation of the Green Hacker Alliance, where all these hacker groups decided to come together and attack the Indonesian websites and Indonesian government sites. 2000, the Hongkong Union of China was founded by Lyon. China Eagle Union was founded by Wantau, and Java file was founded by Kulswall and Blong. One of the things on, where are they now? One of the things that mirrors the hacking culture in the U.S. and the hacking culture in China is hackers grow old, okay? It's like, you know, being that outlaw bad guy and stuff, you know, it's like, gets harder with age. Kevin Poulsen, Mark Mayford, Ringabelle, bad hackers gone legit. Goodwell, major security consultant now for billion-dollar companies and organizations and the Chinese government in China. Wantau, China Eagle Union, still around, but he's also an IBM researcher. So, you know, it's like, you gotta make a living somewhere and stuff. You know, sometimes crime doesn't pay as well as, you know, IBM. So, we all remember 2001, don't we? When I say 2001, there's a date popping up in your head. But what about April? April 2001. There was a Air Force plane flying over near China that collided with a Chinese jet fighter. That jet fighter pilot lost his life. And the Air Force crew on board were guests of the Chinese government for a few weeks. And during that time created a lot of tension. Well, U.S. hackers, not really understanding exactly the whole dynamics and obviously not knowing about the Red Hacker Alliance decide to teach the Chinese a lesson and start an attack on web defacement on Chinese websites to free the crew. Well, guess who got the call out and guess what formed up? The Red Hacker Alliance got together and started the thousand-web defacement protesting the death of the Chinese pilot. And they won that one. But we learned, it's like we kept learning from our mistakes. One of the other things that you talk about when you're talking about the Chinese hacking and the timeline was the year 2005. Because prior to that, 1997, up to around 2005, there was a major block for the Chinese hackers. There was an impediment that they were having to overcome and a stumbling block that they had to deal with. English. All the hacking programs are in English. All the programs and the key codes and stuff that you have to know are English. So that posed a problem. Not since 2005 when they started reverse engineering. They started creating their programs in Chinese. Ask the UK government about that one. The Great Prison Trojan in their mail system back in 2005. That's when we really got a good taste of Chinese ingenuity and programming. Now, another thing I want to bring up about the culture of China is patriotism. I gave this talk in Brazil and saying that I'm a US patriot in Brazil is a lot different than saying I'm a US patriot in the US. But why does it, being a patriot in one country, make you less of a patriot in another? Just because we're from another country, you've got to understand when you talk about once again the Chinese culture, when you were born day one, you are Chinese. You are part of the collective. You are part of the group. Your ancestors were emperors. Your civilization that you can trace back to the formation of your country was thousands of years. You are part of the Communist Party from birth, part of the collective. So they are very patriotic. They may disagree with their governments at points, but when the West attacks China, not the government, they attack China, they are attacking these hackers. They are attacking these peoples and they will respond in kind. It is once again part of the culture and how they operate and how they believe that they are Chinese and they should not be messed with. It's like, you know, they don't want to be called out. It's like you can talk about certain political areas and stuff, but one that goes to the nationalism, those are off limits. But another good thing is we export a lot of things here in the West. One of them is capitalism. Ask a certain India company back in 2008 when they lost a bid just by just narrowly missing that bid to the Chinese company. It wasn't until two months later that they found out that there was Chinese Trojans and programs in their network which allowed the Chinese company to underbid them just much. And before you start going and saying how bad the Chinese are about corporate espionage, it's like, where's the French people in the room? Oh, there you are. It's like other governments, let's say, are known to do corporate espionage on behalf of companies. So that does go around. So let's start off with the Russians now. I want to say I'm drinking Pepsi because I'm allergic to polonium tea. But one of the things I do like about the Russian armies is that they're honest about it. They don't hide it. They don't try to deny anything. They're right out there with it. The Russian 5th Division Simer Army. They're a military budget, 40 billion U.S. altogether. The global rating tied at number four. One of the key things is that their global warfare budget is 127 million, offensive. Okay, come on, that's on the books. We're looking at at least two billion off books, right? It's like, I know there's some feds in here and you know that's true. So let's look at some of the toys they've got in their little play chest. Large advanced botnets for DDOS and espionage. Hmm, botnets, DDOSes. I wonder if they've used that recently. How about electromagnetic pulse weapons? Non-nuclear, thank goodness. Advanced dynamic exploitation capabilities. Wireless data communication jammers trying to stop the flow of information. Their cyber weapons capabilities rating is advanced. They know what they're doing. And they've got 23 million computers and DSL connections to do something with it. I believe that if you give a cyber warfare talk now, it's the cardinal role that you have to mention Estonia at least once. So I'm mentioning Estonia. It's like, but not just for the sake of being a good cyber warfare talk, but also because of the fact that we have to understand one important thing. Why? Instead of the technical and the political motivations, it's like I've got a theory. My perceptions, the way I look at it, the way I see it. Say I'm a major, you know, country, a very large country, and I've got to build a budget say of $120 something million a year to build all kinds of really cool DDOSes and tools. What's he's having toys that he can't play with them? How are you going to test them? How are you going to get them in a real-world scenario? Well, how would you like to actually attack, say, another major country, like the U.S., five to ten years from now? You know, a country you like to U.S. in five to ten years would have voting online. They have all their bill pays online. They'd be a very internet-connected community. Mostly all their government facilities and stuff are done through the internet and connected through the internet. That would be great to be able to try to attack a country like that five to ten years from now, but how do you do it now? How do you see what the tools would react now? Well, in Estonia in April, and oh, by the way, you may not know about Estonia, but here's a couple facts. They're one of the most wired countries in the world. They do all their voting online. They do all their bill pay online. Their government's highly connected. Their leader said that the internet is a basic human right. Some would even say they're where America's going to be in, you know, five to ten years, but I'm sure that's, for instance, let's keep going. So there was a statue. It got moved. It got upset. That was opportunity. What happened afterwards may or may not have been government-motivated. Those may have been some tools coming out of the toy chest to be used in, you know, taking notes over and see how it worked and what didn't work. But you can't just do one beta. Let's talk about beta 2.0. Let's talk about Georgia, okay? One of the key things that we learned in Estonia is a highly cyber attack is not as going to be totally as effective unless you mix a little, you know, couple bombs and tanks in there. It's like it's about communication. That's the reason why I really don't like the term cyber warfare, and yes, I know I use it very frequently. It's information warfare. That's the actual target. If I can deny my opponent information, if I can get information from my opponent he does not know that I have, it's like, or if I can disseminate false information. That's how battles are won. That is how wars are won. From the dawn of history, usually the wars have been hinging not just on the body count, but the information that is vital to create those plans and carry out those attacks. So what do we have there? We had actual attacks on television stations and cell towers in the real world. At the same time distributed denial services attacks were happening to those same outlets. There was a coordinated attack. No, I do not have the graphs. I know people that do, and I can tell you who they are later. But they're out there where you can actually see the kinetic attack with a non-kinetic attack almost happening simultaneously. That was government sponsored. That was an attack to see exactly what else can we do with these toys. Where's 3.0 going to happen? Kozikstan might know. And another thing is before you start talking and saying, well, this is for postures, it's like how would a major country deal with this? It's like, why would they do things like this? Are they really capable of doing that? Are they really capable of actually attacking another nation like that and filling the repercussions and stuff of the UN and all these other governing bodies that say no, no? Got gas? Russia cut the natural gas pipeline to Europe in January. Natural gas for heating might help keep you warm. They cut the gas because they could. That didn't take balls. I don't know what did. That's the kind of country that might be capable of doing a couple of online attacks and seeing what they can get with it. This is my don't-fought-while-me slide. It's like because of quite frankly the stuff you don't want to understand that once again, looking through those different facets, sometimes we narrow our facets to just one specific part of a religion and say that's the religion. That's like from the West, if you're from outside the United States and you're watching television and you see some of these churches that are doing bombings and they're doing all these signs that say, you know, God loves dead soldiers. The US can go to hell. Is that Christianity? I don't think so. It's one facet. That's one extreme. We can't just look at one slide. And one of the things I think a lot of people in the West haven't really read the Koran. They haven't really understood it. They haven't really tried to read it and find out what's in there. So some of them might be actually surprised to find out that Jesus Christ is actually mentioned in the Koran with reverence and respect. So that's just a little bit of food for thought before I go in and start talking about that one little facet. But that's what we're talking about here. So the funny thing about the jihadists, what people like to say like in the telegraph they were talking about, they want to start nuclear war, three main reasons the jihadists use the internet. Communication, recruitment and propaganda. How do they accomplish those three main things with the internet? So when we talk about these online attacks and how they want to bring down the internet, do we really think that they want to bring down the very means of their communication, propaganda and recruitment? When you blow up a mall, that's terrorism. That's terrifying. When you take down amazon.com, that's Black Thursday. There is a difference with that. You have to understand the difference. And also, yes, cybercrime is, they are starting to fund more cybercrime. They are starting to actually get more involved with the cybercrime and trying to get money off of that. You know what the biggest trade that the jihadists are using to fund themselves with? Who said that? Fed? Okay, I'm helping you guys out here, okay? Because the last one went so bad. So yes, it's a drug trade. They feel that drugs are humorous, which means forbidden. So what better way than to grow something and distribute something that kills the infidels and then use the money that they give you for that privilege to kill more infidels? I mean, that's a win-win situation for somebody. It's like, I still don't understand the virgins, but that's a whole other thing. Now let's talk about some other guys, because I really thoroughly want to piss off mostly every industrialized nation before I'm done. So let's talk about South America. Brazilian hackers. Pretty cool. They're really good. You guys rock. But Brazil, hacking is not your criminal. It's not sexy. It's not an outlaw thing. So you've got mostly Brazilians hacking. Brazilians are not actually going after nation states trying to topple them. The Eastern Europe, you know, I talked about, you know, a little bit before about how we export things. We exported movies. Okay, we're real good. The West is real good at exporting movies. Well, we shipped a couple good movies over there. The Godfather, Scarface, Goodfellows. Great entertainment unless you use it as a training video. Okay. And that's exactly what the Eastern European's like. Good ideas. Now they brought that into, you know, I know, so, you know, they'll hold your, they'll ransom your files. They'll whack your website, you know. They'll do some drive-by malware on you, okay. They're learning. And they're still doing the physical real world, so that's all I'm going to talk about them too. But once again, the reason why we're not talking about too much about them is because, you know, crime's not that much of warfare unless it's actually intended for that part, and it's really hard to tell. But one prediction that I do have, within the next five to 10 years, every major industrialized nation will have a cyber warfare unit. We protect our food supply. We protect our trade routes. We protect our borders. Why not our bandwidth? When our economy and our government and our country runs on the Internet, why wouldn't we protect those? So you're going to start seeing these more out there. And speaking of Agenex and the non-North Korean DDOS, as I like to call it, is exactly one of the formations and the testings in the evolution of cyber warfare, of informational warfare, because this was informational warfare. It was disinformation. What is the best way to go and test reactions on a country? Well, first of all, you don't want to get caught. You know, I mean, hello. It's good and fun to trip the fire alarm as long as there's not a camera there, unless you do it. So make sure you have your fall guy and you launch attacks maybe at one enemy, one enemy of one person, and then the ally of that enemy. So then everybody goes, okay, A and B are getting attacked. It's like it must be C. Really? And you're thinking, like, no, Jason, that's too stupid. It's like, who would actually think that? Within a week of July 4th, you're going to see an idea, okay? A little scary, because obviously, we're not really getting it here in the United States. The reason why I'm, oh, by the way, at the guy next to you who's starting to pucker a little bit, it's like, fed. I'm trying to help you, because by this time they've already read that part of the slide and they're wondering what I'm going to talk about next. But let's start off with the 2004 Pentagon statement on the military readiness that said that for a response of a cyber warfare incident, they would actually consider a nuclear strike. Really? DDoS? You nuked a city? I'm dropping malware. There's a battalion coming for me. I start spamming and there's a B-52. Well, actually, that would actually be pretty effective. It's like, you know, it's like, okay. So that's what I'm saying. Once again, we're trying to get there. But we're not really understanding it. 2003 was a really good lesson. Titan rain. Okay? Not purple rain. Much worse than this. Okay? It was Titan rain, which actually woke up, you know, Americans, saying, oh, people really do want to go after certain networks that we have. And so, yes, they'll go after the Nipronet. It's like, what's going to be next? I said Nipronet. Did they see anybody react? Really? Okay. Because maybe they couldn't read it all the way back there and stuff. You know, so it's like, I promise not to say, you know, skip for Nipronet and make someone go. Oh, wait, sorry. Okay. So let's keep where we're going. Oh, I'm calling everybody out. Okay? Everybody is starting. When I said five to ten years, cyber warfare industrialized nations, no, we're already working there. Okay? South Koreans have already got one. They really need a lot of funding and stuff, you know, it's like, it's not like they're a victim of attack, which could generate some sympathy to help shore that up. That's just a position to hope to get a chuckle from somebody. But the Japanese, Germans just started one. They're getting one going. The U.K. has had one for a while, right, major? It's like, the U.K. has had one for a while. It's like, and the Israelis, yes, I mentioned the Israelis in the cyber warfare talk and stuff, you know, with government people. It's like, late 1990s, Shimbot Israeli forces, you know, they did a little field depot north of Tel Aviv. Yeah, they got a cyber warfare unit up real quick after that. So, Israeli fed, by the way. So, what do we got to learn from this? One of the key things, we have to stop trying to learn things from this. We are trying to develop a way to do battle in the future, you know, in tomorrow with last year's technology and stuff, you know, and trying to get it together today. That's worked when you're building tanks and bombs and airplanes. We're not talking years now, we're talking nanoseconds. You don't know where the new zero day is coming out. You don't know what the next vulnerability is going to be released. We have to start understanding the complexity and how fast these things change on the ground. And also the anonymity from where these attacks come from. It's like, how do you do a proper offense when you don't really know who's the one shooting you? And I'm telling you, when you talk about cyber warfare and you talk about information warfare and you talk about all these different nation states, I tell you this, if a Guinness basement owns a hundred thousand computers and he targets your website on it, that's an attack, that's information warfare, welcome to the new general. That's the way warfare is heading. It's not heading where it's just all the big boys get to play. It's no longer just this one army that you have to deal with. They're coming from all over different places and yes, they're attacking from within. Like, we've never seen that before. Did I mention I gave a conference in Oklahoma City? So now what do we do? Well, we have to start understanding what's going on. We have to start understanding without knowing, and I'm going to read because I hate reading from the slide, but without understanding where the opponent's weaknesses are, you cannot borrow their strengths to use against them. Like I said, I like Chinese military quotes because they know what they're doing, and it's true. You have to start understanding the whole picture. Just like Sun Tzu said, you can't just understand one side of it anymore. You have to understand the other side. You have to understand both if you actually really want to be victorious in a battle. So actually, this slide doesn't make sense now because I told you, you know, that we got to do it in Room 104. Oh, by the way, that's it. Dude, no more questions. I started early and I talked really fast. So...