 Even before this pandemic, I understood that things have to change. We have to understand our time and we really have to understand our future. Because whatever we design today, we'll be able to actually execute in the future. And that future is is changing so so fast. And it's a real issue. I mean, humans don't really like change. We are animals that don't like change. And the reason that I found my solution in space and space innovation is that designing for space, one forces us to design for Earth's future. Because a lot of things, a lot of issues, if it's some square footage, shortage, or pollution, or anything like that, that those are things that we're dealing with right now in space, and it will be our problems, or they will be bigger problems as we go into the future of Earth. And the second thing is designing in space forces us to think from first principles, forces us to think about the problems as if it's the first time we see it, and we can't be attached to solutions that we are used to from Earth. So those two things really help us kind of prepare for the future and understand how can we design and think about a future that can sustain our lives even if we change, and even if technology changes. So so regarding that, I think that's a big issue for me to understand that space is, is not only something that is really in our future, and we're really going to get there sooner than most people even imagine. But also it's a really good way to solve problems here on Earth. Michelle Saiso is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas, brought to you by 1.5 Media and Innovators Magazine. Now, I might have crashed or brutalized Misha's name, Michelle's name, but she's given me the honor to call her Mika throughout our podcast, but Mika is the founder of Saiso, a studio working at the intersection of architecture, innovation, space and human equality. She is also a space architect focused on human experience, a trailblazer by dealing with social and psychological diversity aspects, and an active member of Y Space, Israel Professional Women in Space Association, a visionary architect practicing for almost a decade in Israel and New York City. She has extensive experience in designing skyscrapers and large scale urban projects, a graduate of the Technion Israel Institute of Technology. She also served in the Elite Intelligence Unit 8200 of the Israeli Defense Force. Taken together is a rare combination of creative skills, intelligence, data analysis and technical abilities, which she manifests as a space architect and thought leader. She has a two-time TEDx speaker, TEDx ISU International Space University, Strasbourg, France, TEDx Yaffa Women, Tel Aviv, Israel, a frequent lecturer and mentor at academic institutions, organizations and creative tech companies such as ISA, Israeli Space Agency, Ramon Foundation UNOSA, which is United Nations Office of Outer Space Affairs, Explore Mars, Parsons School of Design, Wix, and much, much more. Mika is actively raising awareness for gender and human equality through public speaking as well as collaboration with the international organizations such as UN Women, UN SDG Global, and SDG Israel. Zaiso was chosen to be part of the UN SDG Action Campaign of 2019 as one of the top 10 global initiatives fighting for gender equality. As a mentor to young individuals, especially young women at various forms such as UNOSA, Space for Women, Pro-Women Organization, and ISE, Israeli Startup Experience, Mika promotes courageous, creative thinking, innovation through extreme conditions and encourages all to become passionate, change agents for this world. A proud activist and avid traveler, Mika inspired by cultures, diversity, and the various ways people use space on earth and beyond. Mika's mission is to create a built environment in space and on earth that fits the needs of its diverse users to ensure not only a surviving but a thriving human society. Mika, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here. It's such an honor to have you here and we know each other from not only UNOSA, but also Space for Women and SDGs for space and our past has kind of crossed before and you've moderated or held chats or done some other things that have made my life easier but also kind of helped to promote me and given me some nice feedback. And it's now very an honor to have you speak to us today and kind of tell us a little bit of deeper dive into your life and insights. So I'm so honored. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I can't wait. I'm going to start off right away with kind of the big bang. Obviously it's what's happened during this time at your your bio was very detailed at what you've been doing and working on for such a long time. You're an architect, but you're a unique type of architect doing some very futuristic, very spacey, very wonderful projects and things and the way you think and your creativity and that wonderful aspect that's been missing the the the female component of a lot of those for for many years or has been suppressed, which I absolutely cannot stand and hate has any of that experience in that journey you've had up until now helped you to weather this pandemic and how have you been give us an update how this crazy past year and this time has been and bring us up to speed where you're at. Yeah, I think that's that's an interesting question. This this time has been very interesting for me. I think that the main thing that I understood before this pandemic that people should do regardless their profession is try to become more agile, more flexible about what they do, what they do in life in their personal life or in their career. And I think that's something that I got really comfortable with just changing and going with the flow that once the pandemic hit, at least in the in the career sense, I was still very comfortable. I did the immediate switch from offline to online. My studio is actually a very new age architecture firm kind of thing that I don't really own a big office with a lot of workers. I hire freelancers per project or I create built teams per project. And those teams are not even local. There's they're all over the world. So in that sense, I was also much more prepared to kind of communicating and doing projects online. And something interesting that happened to me that was that since the beginning of that pandemic around April, I started a big project with a huge team in Italy, in a location in the Nevada desert in the United States. And we kind of did all like eight months of work together, communicating online and through Zoom. And it was very, very comfortable. And I think even for me, the international relationships became stronger because we used to have people saying, Oh, when you come to Berlin or when you come to LA, let's grab a coffee. We'll talk about the things that are interesting and common to us. But now, since we don't have that, the immediate thing is let's schedule a call for tomorrow. So I think in that sense, my international connections and network got very, very, very strong. So I really think that since I understood that I had to be flexible just when I thought about the future before this pandemic, because I really understand the fact that the world is changing exponentially. Every day, there's twice the amount of change of yesterday. So we really can't predict. So the only way for us to survive was kind of to be able to be flexible and to go with the flow and to change our titles and to not fall in love with our titles and really, really just see where the world takes us with curiosity and with excitement and not with fear and anxiety. So that's one aspect of it. And the other aspect of it, which was very interesting is since I designed habitats or I research space habitats, and that they're usually smaller physical spaces, there are I realize there are a lot of researches by NASA and other space agencies about how to cope with living in isolation and living in close quarters. So in the very early days of the pandemic, I saw a colleague another space architect from LA that she posted this thing about tips from space architects to living in isolation and I kind of built on that and dove deeper into that and how can we take actual tips and tools from astronauts into actually living in isolation in our smaller homes and coping with other people. So those kind of two things were really interesting for me. And I think it's been a very creative time. I believe that true creativity true innovation comes from extreme situations and and this is this is good. Maybe maybe then people would would yeah, say to the contrary, but No, it is fabulous. So just to clarify, the pandemic's horrific time for everyone. It's bad. It needs to be taken seriously. And we're still not out of it. I mean, I guess we're in the second phase of lockdown in a lot of places and and still a lot of things have changed. But it's really shine the microscope on a lot of our problems. It's also led a lot of problems bubbled to the surface that need to be fixed. And I want to dive back into a couple of things you mentioned. One that that our world around us, and if those who were who weren't listening clearly is growing exponentially, everything in our world is really growing exponentially, especially good, bad and ugly is growing exponentially, as well as the human our human beings are. The problem is, is we're really struggling in some respects to keep up with that exponential growth. And as human beings to our built environment, our infrastructures are the way we we should be progressing towards the future is not keeping up with that a day to day exponential growth. And so I love that you you mentioned that and that you brought that out. I have a good friend here in Humberg, Alexander Maria Fassbender. He has a company and a program organization and that is called Space Coach. And it's to to train people to be a Space Coach for those who are going to go to space who are going to live on Mars because there's a lot of isolation, a lot of loneliness, a lot of mental and emotional psychological issues that we deal with when we're leaving our home, but also living and working and doing things in harsh conditions that not just your physical body needs to be ready, but your emotional mental state needs to be well to deal with that extra isolation and those moments of awe or overwhelming experiences that could be experienced. And they're up until recent. There hasn't been a lot of efforts or or, you know, how is your mental state? And there's some programs on on TV or some series out there where they've started to address that, which I really think is interesting, especially the one that's Mars, you know, kind of in conjunction with Elon Musk where it goes to the present and then the future and and things they deal a lot with those psychological emotional mental issues, which you really find is interesting to be to be thinking about. But the other thing that you touched upon that I really want to address and point out is that a lot of us are not aware of now, space, future, satellites, going to Mars, going to the moon, anything to do with off this earth, how that has to do with a type of a work environment that is is remote and coordinated with all sorts of players and actors around the world. And so most people who are in that are I don't think there's very many who are just say just hyper focused only on this one location. Most of them are coordinating with teams and players and producers and experts around the world to make sure that that project, that mission or that certain thing can be executed. And so not only as an architect, but your other passions that you focused in, you probably have got it down to a science on how to work in teams, how to work remote, how to combat a lot of these issues. And I love that you brought all that out and your experience and you're looking amazing, like you're healthy and well and doing great. And I think it's probably because your people are knocking down your door to to to work and to to collaborate with you on some of the things that you're doing for our future. So I'm glad to hear that. And I don't know if you have any other thoughts or ideas that have popped into your mind when I've kind of pointed out those things that you'd like to continue to address or maybe give us an example of a super story that you've experienced during this time. I mean, I think that you touched on the fact that you highlighted that I mentioned exponential change. Everything that I do today, regardless, even before the pandemic has to do with the fact that I realized I looked around and I realized that things are not fitting. Everything around us, products, buildings, architecture, cities are not fitting our actual needs. There are a lot of things that we are kind of getting used to and we just accept as a given. And I think when we have things that are comfortable, like when we are healthy, we don't feel a problem. But when we are sick, then we start to see the problem. So I think for a lot of a lot of times people that are minorities or women or people with disabilities, they feel the problems and they a lot of times don't have the tools to change or to create change or even to understand what the problem is. So even before this pandemic, I understood that things have to change. We have to understand our time and we really have to understand our future because whatever we design today, we'll be able to actually execute in the future and that future is changing so fast. And it's a real issue. I mean, humans don't really like change. We are animals that don't like change. And the reason that I found my solution in space and space innovation is that designing for space, one forces us to design for Earth's future because a lot of things, a lot of issues, if it's some square footage, shortage or pollution or anything like that, those are things that we're dealing with right now in space and it will be our problems or they will be bigger problems as we go into future of Earth. And the second thing is designing in space forces us to think from first principles, forces us to think about the problems as if it's the first time we see it and we can't be attached to solutions that we are used to from Earth. So those two things really help us kind of prepare for the future and understand how can we design and think about a future that can sustain our lives even if we change and even if technology changes. So regarding that, I think that's a big issue for me to understand that space is not only something that is really in our future and we're really going to get there sooner than most people even imagine, but also it's a really good way to solve problems here on Earth. So that's regarding the exponential growth. I think it's very important to kind of emphasize how we can really all do so much better and get so much better. And we just don't really know even to ask the questions. So right now for me it's kind of a process of doubting everything around me. Everything should be reconsidered. I don't know if you want to dive into this now, but even the concept of countries I think should be reconsidered. There are many things that are not necessarily working for us right now and for humanity as it is right now. And it may have worked a hundred years ago, but in kind of exponential growth, scope, thinking, that's a long time ago, a hundred years ago, a lot of things happened in the past 100 years. So that's one thing. And the other thing you mentioned is the world collaboration on projects. And I really think the ISS, the International Space Station is a good example for it. The ISS was starting to, the design process began in the mid to late 80s. They started to assemble it in the 90s and astronauts actually started to live on it and starting 2000. And it was a global collaboration. I mean, the countries that had, don't catch me on the specifics here, but the countries that had the best, I don't know, solar panels, that's the one that they chose because that's just the best. So, and the ones that had the best communication technology, that's the one that helped on that. And I think that's a very interesting way to really collaborate. And I understand that I don't know everything. And not necessarily the people that are around me immediately, like physically, geographically, close to me are the best at something. So maybe it's okay to just branch out and understand that if you collaborate, especially if you collaborate with diverse people from different backgrounds, your product or your project will become so much better because you'll have so much more perspectives on it. So I really think this time kind of pushed us towards really understanding that. So there's so much that I can unpack. And I kind of want to unpack before we go into the next thing. And so I've already got to take notes. So I don't know, don't forget a few things that I want to ask you. We will get into the question you tickled in a minute, but first you've kind of touched on a few things. So one of the reasons I really love the idea of space is it's basically not only first principle of thinking, but it's also closed system thinking, which is circular economy. And I really like that model for here on Earth, but it's the true test of resilience and sustainability and to be able to sustain oneself for a while. If we're thinking about, you know, the ISS, for example, that you mentioned as it's a closed system, it's confined, it has certain technologies, but if you were to try to, you know, and they've done many experiments and things there, if you do something in those environments to grow a plant or to do cellular agriculture or try to, you know, produce algae or something there, that the inputs or the way that you create that process within minutes can be felt if you were to try to use chemicals or certain things that in a closed system would come to light very quickly and could come back and damage the air or damage the astronauts or something, you know, an explosion could occur. So those things need to be thought out very well before beginning any of that process. That's why not only is there the collaboration, but there's this pre-planning and thinking. This is a very interesting thing that you're mentioning. I'm sorry I'm cutting you off, but... No, go ahead. It's kind of like a microcosmos of what we have here. I mean, doesn't that mean that every action that we do has a reaction or has an impact? I mean, we feel that since we are on Earth and Earth is big and limitless, kind of, where that's how we feel or how we behave, our actions don't have immediate impacts, but actually exactly like what can happen in small quarters like on the ISS, everything that we do, doesn't matter if it's small or big, has an immediate impact. So I think that kind of thinking to get used to that kind of thinking is something that is very useful for us here. That's beautiful. It's the most useful ever. I think that you touched upon it succinctly and the reason why it's harder for us to think in that way here on Earth or for us to act upon it or to apply that into our life is because we're on a much bigger spaceship Earth and so the effects take years, you know, 10 or 30 years sometimes to see those effects of things that we put in our atmosphere or our oceans or whatever into our little ecosystems even in certain areas takes us a lot longer and so because we're kind of a linear and have trouble thinking and complexities and kind of siloed thinkers as human beings it's hard to say oh by doing this that's going to create this ripple effect because it's not as immediate whereas in the ISS and in these clothes smaller it can happen within minutes to hours that you know they're seeing a thing and there are also operating on some other systems that are also going on here on Earth but in a different method where that error is being recycled and repurposed and the when they go to the bathroom and when they urinate and some of those things are being recycled repurposed and make sure that that waste is not becoming a piled up waste that somehow that's recycled or exchanged in this again circular economy system closed loop systems which I think is fabulous and so I'm sure you as we go on today you're going to kind of tell us how we can apply those in better ways and our built environments and here on Earth and some other experiences on that one thing that I'm not sure was addressed 100 years ago or addressed back 51 years ago when we were starting to think about going to space and the moon and our rockets and I see it coming to light more and more and that is the livability factor living in space even traveling and outer space but also living on the moon living on Mars and when we talk livability as the social cultural aspect of that the emotional mental the psychological aspect of that livability which we didn't use to talk about that a lot but that's a big factor because we're social beings and we have this we especially now during this pandemic we've all seen okay this is our human zoo I don't like it I've created the wrong human zoo I don't want to be here more than 12 hours because I'll pull my hair out or you know that's happening a lot in a world more domestic violence or more frustration with your kids because you don't have enough technology or internet broadband to help educate them now if they stay home etc etc that we really in a lot of respects we've separated work and and livability or our personal lives from each other and they're almost diverging poles they're almost pulling in the separate directions against each other and we really need to think about combining those in this livability in this new way of doing so I'm sure you're going to get into how when you when you deal these these things built environment and space and even on earth how you factor those livability things into which are really emerging or maybe you have some other terminology your thoughts on how that works yeah I think that's a big question but I think another thing that now as you were speaking I realized that I was doing even before the pandemic is I understood that one I like what I do for for money for work but that's not something that is separate for my I can't really separate it for my personal life so instead of fighting it I decided that I will create my schedule seven days a week every day I'm working but every day I'm doing something for me that doesn't have any to do with work and I'm kind of balancing it out and it's not it's strict I can have weekends off I can have whatever days I want off but I took all of my seven days and divided them for work and life I also realized that I work better or my creativity or my creative juices run higher at night 11 p.m that's my creative hour so I organize my life around me being able to work I mean I chose an office that is not scary at night unfortunately that's a factor that mostly women take into consideration because I knew that I had to I want to be in the office really late at night until 1 a.m. or 2 a.m. because this is when I work my best and it's also really works well with working internationally so once I understood that and I think I implemented that into my life that helped me during this time because really I understand that we have to think about not living for working and but also not working for it's something that is bigger than that we have to understand the impact of our architecture our immediate environment our homes our offices on the way we behave do we have enough air do we have enough light do we have our own personal space like on the ISS the astronauts have like those little tiny pods that when they want to get away it's something that is crucial to have and a lot of families with small children found that they don't have those personal spaces and those boundaries really got kind of blurred and I think another thing is that every person is very unique I mean in the same family you can have a parent regardless if it's a mom a dad two moms, two dads each of them and the children they can have different needs they feel better with this amount of hours in their communal space area in the house or I mean every person has different needs even if they're so much alike within the same core family so just imagine how it is with people that are unrelated never met each other and are stuck in a place together for a long duration of time and that place is kind of small so that leads me to the second thing is that really understanding that we have different needs it doesn't mean it's like if you call people with differences of abilities when you call them disabilities their disabilities are disabilities because the world around them doesn't allow them to function like everyone else if everything around us was fit for wheelchairs people with wheelchairs are not disabled people they're able to do everything and people on wheelchairs is something that's very visible to us but everyone have different needs and different abilities and our world should fit that and so I really think that's another thing that was very very apparent and something that I it was interesting for me to kind of portray and to talk about and to research more now in this time because people really started to get what I'm talking about uh so so that's yeah I love to hear that and that's beautiful I I really and I'm sure you do as well I don't have the separation of of work and life I also work seven days a week but I don't see it as work I really enjoy what I do I enjoy in our conversation now I enjoy the people I get to meet the books I get to read the the projects and the work there and and if I don't enjoy them I usually don't take them on I don't take them on because I know that I will be frustrated and I will feel like it's uh the the four letter word work and and it won't make fun and my best work is when when I'm passionate or I feel like it's my company or my baby and I'm gonna do the best I can and and that my skills can come out and shine now not not everyone has the the fortunate ability to do that I think that if our working environment in the world would take more that human factor into consideration and the future of work and how we work and how we set our not just our work hours but how we set up the future of work for our employees that not only will accompany the organization be more efficient that the employee satisfaction would go up we know for a fact that it's above I think 78% in the world now of dissatisfaction with our work and jobs we just do it for a paycheck and a lot of that lies on the working conditions and the structure of that organization and that's also part of the built environment it's part of the way that that organization is is set up and during this time of the pandemic again that micro lens has been shown in on on that people are and the reports are saying boy a lot of these organizations they don't need an office space at all that's just been a big waste of money and time that our employees can be just as efficient from home but then there's the other factor that now how is that person's home environment livable or has the ability to have a separate office or it has the tools to to work from home and so I don't want to get too far into that but there's a lot of things that if even organizations that are very labor intensive or very kind of industrial where you have to physically go and it might not be the most wonderful that there are ways to make that enjoyable for your employees and in return it only benefits those human beings and I'm sure you deal with that as well do you want to say something before moving to the next question this kind of ties back to your question before that about livability and the concept of livability in space if we space until a few decades ago maybe less wasn't about living in space it was about conquering new realms and about science and about exploration it was never about actually living there and now kind of the conversation changed the difference between old space and new space and we understand that we may need a backup for humanity and also we can really find more areas to kind of settle as part of our like basic instinct of spreading around and technology now allows us to do that but even if we look at the international space station it wasn't designed for living it was designed for working and it was designed for it was designed by very or not so diverse people in times where the majority of the people and they're still it's still true today but smaller numbers the majority of the space industry are white male abled straight like the same type typecast and you can really see how right now even the most technologically advanced structure in the entire world looks like the inside of the computer it's really hard to change it I mean they began to they're living in 2020 astronauts in 2020 are living in something that was designed in the 80s and it looks like that it was it's not designed for all types of astronauts all body sizes all backgrounds it's not designed for maximizing their productivity the fact that it looks like the interior of the computer and it's like there are wires everywhere and it's very not it's not and not so visually clean impacts the way they perform and and I think now it's hard to change it because it was such a huge effort to build but always thinking balancing that question of what's urgent and what's important and understanding that the important is not less than the urgent I mean the urgent is to survive to breathe to you know to not get not die from radiation but the important stuff of of being productive being able to focus being able to rest being able to to communicate those things are as crucial for sustainable future or for sustainable living and those things kind of circle back to everything that you just mentioned about the offices and the homes and how we think about the space that we design and what it's going to be used for and all the possible options so so I really think that kind of really ties ties together Oh I absolutely know it doesn't and there's been numerous examples and of how not to do it in the past and learning experiences one of my good friends a mentor William McDonough built a city in China that was a big huge failure because it didn't address the livability of the farmers that was designed for they moved in and they're like we need to be closer to the farm and we don't want to be here and we use our the way we live a lot different and it was a huge learning experience and of how important livability and that work life balances and how those two really sometimes they're seen as different and they're pulling in different directions but they're not the all the discussions of the future of work the future of of how we do things those things are combined into a lifestyle into livability they're part of your life and I think the job satisfaction or the career enjoyment the enjoyment of life period if those two worlds are in harmony or one how much better our world would do and this year has been a fabulous example I mean we I hate to keep dwelling on what we've been on but you there's so many wormholes that we can go into in reality so a historical precedence first time in 11 years now that we've had our own private missions you know the Dragon Falcon X go multiple times now to the ISS delivering equipment launching Starlink broadband and first man mission to go not through Russia to the ISS and the difference from the old shuttle cockpits and or the old cockpits to the now more livable more comfortable easy less chaos in those cockpits and we've seen that shift and I hope that shift carries on now to the ISS and carries on to many other things that we're moving more in that direction I just feel it I see it everything there and it's such a it's a different thing when I used to watch the old Apollo or the other missions I'd like now when the hell can they remember what buttons when what to do there's so many ways for error but also how can you just not mentally be overwhelmed by seeing that because it's not a job as you also mentioned it's not a job that is can be turned off they said can't work eight hours I'm going to go home there that's a 24 seven for multiple days or months sometimes that they're living that and they've always almost always got to be on so that's where the nice part of livability or functionality really comes into play so all those things you brought out so eloquently I just had to to touch upon them the my real first big question is how do you do you feel like you're a global citizen and how would you feel about a world without borders nations divisions of humanity one that was truly biodiverse and open for all of us what are your thoughts or feelings how do you feel about that well I'll share with you a personal story I in terms of global citizen ever since I was young I moved around with my parents around the world so the first time I moved was when I was 12 years old and we moved from Israel to New York and then we moved back when I was 15 and then I moved to Italy and then I moved back and then I moved to New York again and then I moved back and every time I moved it was like my whole life moved with me and the last time I was in New York I got rid of all of my belongings went like the story like with four suitcases full of books by the way nothing more practical than that I kind of decided this is where I'm going and the reason I came back to Israel had to do a lot with the elections in 2016 but we'll not get into that but but as a person that traveled a lot from a very young age I had the privilege to play with identity with culture cultural identity with how I present myself to the world how who I choose to be my friends what I want to do so that kind of thing about a global citizen is something that I I had or I experienced since a very young age but I think what you're more referring to is really the reason that now we are collaborating and working I work with people from literally all over the world on every continent and I think that's something that I it's not only amazing and interesting to see and to know those people and also when I lived in New York when I was younger I studied in an international school of kids of diplomats so I was always around people from all over the world so I think that's very very interesting and it's also very humbling and it makes you feel smaller in a good way people have so many things cultures and different things that that are happening and you're not necessarily aware of but also I think that I got to understand and maybe it's a bit radical but the fact that we are born into a specific country doesn't necessarily nowadays is it helpful for us or does it kind of hold us back I think now people can relate globally on topics that there are countries that are coming from or not necessarily agreeing on I think that taxes, healthcare, religion all those things are not necessarily something that we all choose to have or we are all agreeing with in our countries and a lot of times that kind of prevents us from from communicating or working with people that are from other places that are different than ours and this time kind of broke down those barriers a little bit and I really do think I mean if I if I'm thinking about architecture and I'm thinking is it relevant to us the infrastructure the roads I mean you know that you know do you know I'll ask you a question do you know why our roads are the width that they are almost the same all around the world you know why I don't know the size so so a long time ago people used horse and carriage and the dimension of the carriage was the dimension of two horses but basically and then the roads were paved for those carriages and then the our roads today were paved a lot of times based on those dimensions so today construction like pieces of glass for skyscrapers when you are not producing them on site and you have to bring them to the site from the factory those pieces of glass are limited by the size of the truck and the truck is limited by the size of the road and the road is limited by the size of the carriage and the carriage is limited by the size of the two butts of the horse and we kind of stuck with it and I think the same concept go and I think maybe maybe our roads need to have I don't know completely different dimensions maybe we need to drive around in square cars and not rectangular cars maybe that would be more effective for us so the same kind of thought process I started to think about countries I mean okay it was good for us back then in the past we needed like the same idea goes for marriage for you know to control people to put them in confined borders just to be able to control them to control the country and to control the economy but maybe it's not relevant anymore and I think you need a lot of courage or the reason the other way around the reason that people are not doubting it so vocally is because we have a lot of ego we are scared to change those things and we are scared of things that are long-term change because maybe we will not be able to see the results personally so what's the point so I really think that it's a new time where before this pandemic a lot of things happened underneath the surface just a small amount of people around the world kind of noticed it and now everything like you said bubbled up and we see everything and everything that is bad that we believe that we are shouldn't consider and we're going in a right direction or something and now we're saying that we are wrong and we have to own it and to really understand the change is needed regardless of the fact that if we will be able to benefit from it or not I don't know how I got to this from my global non-border thing but I really think that to your question yes I consider myself a global citizen and I even would like to see a future or a time where it's actually true that it's actually borderless earth kind of connecting with people based on your passions based on your interests and not based on other things I can tell you my take why I think you got there and it makes perfect sense to me but maybe that's because I have this crazy mind but it's you started out with the asses of horses so it's a kind of asinine principle that we've created boundaries or borders based off of the asses of horses which limit us to the size of what we can use for buildings which is another form of a border or division based on originally how we started mobilization how we started transportation which is I talk a lot about sustainable development you know that and what it is is infrastructure it's infrastructure for the future it's one that sustains us that continues to grow and evolve hopefully exponentially or keeping up with the future but that infrastructure is so important that it grows with humanity that it is up to speed with the the built environment with livability with the way we do things I went to Songdo, Korea for the resilience frontiers workshop for the United Nations to create the road map from 2030 to 2050 and Songdo, Korea was supposed to be the first smart city and be very innovative and stuff and there's a lot of wonderful things there it's a beautiful place I love that they ate like a king but it was all designed around roads and cars and they have these big four or five lane roads and they're all empty there's hardly any traffic and it's like a it's like a ghostless it's soulless place built around these roads and we need to be flexible enough to grow with the future to develop our infrastructure and not build around old ways of thinking cars or whatever that we build around the livability of humanity about beautiful resilient desirable futures because it's kind of like this you look back and you say oh boy and if you're a visitor from outer space whoa look at these big roads I guess the main inhabitants are cars or whatever you know it's not for human beings and species and our planet who it's really made for and so we need to integrate that a little bit more that you know brings me to tons of different ideas that we could go off on as far as what you discussed on being a global citizen and how we were I really see our planet our earth you know this is a map but I see us as all crew members team members on spaceship earth and I'm a big fan of Carl Sagan his daughter Salsa Sagan was on my podcast and Carl Sagan I quote quite a bit and he says has said that we are all star stuff we're all star dust and it's absolutely true the basic elements of life the elements in our body are the same that are in the interiors of collapsing stars they're the same elements that our earth is made up of the core elements this first principle thinking as well of our earth but we all brawled out of the primordial soup of this earth we are earth beings we are earthlings we are all unified together nobody was dropped off on planet Israel or planet Germany or planet USA or Venus or Mars we all crawled out of the primordial soup of this earth and Carl Sagan also said it very eloquently there's a surprising consciousness that the earth is seen as one single organism and an organism divided amongst itself is doomed we need to embrace the biodiversity of our organism and realize we crawled out of the primordial soup of this earth and we're all homo sapiens and learn how to live in harmony as part of this symbiotic earth and things will go so much more beautifully for us in humanity and our future livability that was just the success and the happiness will be off the charts and I'm so glad that you're here and you know very well Carl Sagan and these thoughts and these discussions but I really want to dive a little bit deeper because I know this is an important part of you and who you are besides of what you do as an architect there's a big aspect of diversity and gender equality and your thoughts are fillings and I always say that the two top ways to draw down our human suffering and environmental problems on this planet earth is to empower women and girls and gender equality diversity has a lot to do with that but I would like you to elaborate more and tell us maybe your journey of how this became a livability of passions project and what you've done and kind of your thoughts around this as well yeah it is a big part of what I do and kind of to tie to what you said about Carl Sagan Frank White coined the term the overview effect and he said that something shifts in our perspective when we see the earth from space and we see that everything is one big organism and I don't know if people know the ISS circles that are 16 times a day that means that they sometimes are able to see changes natural changes happening in front of their eyes they're able to see clouds forming and the wind taking those clouds and rain falling on a different continent within one like you know loop around the earth so I think that concept is something that now people are feeling with this pandemic because we're all in the same boat and for me personally talking about gender equality I mean women are 50 49 51 depending on the day percent of the population it's not that I think that they are more important than other groups or genders or or or other group minority groups but I think they're just a very very big chunk of the population and for me personally my journey about that kind of began or I kind of realized that more when I was living in New York doing really really big projects that were senior architects of an architecture permanent in New York working on an 80 story building in Fifth Avenue and really really crazy projects and I was always the only woman in the room and not to mention the only woman in the construction site always when I come to construction site even from the time that I was studying architecture people always say like little girl what are you looking for here like are you here to make us coffee like what's happening like are you are are your shoes like the right shoes for this construction site and and I really saw that I'm always the only one I'm always treated differently and and it kind of led me to to understand that this must have an impact on other things besides the way I'm feeling the fact that I'm always the only one in the room the only woman means that the majority of the world around us why this was designed by men and even if they have the best intentions they just don't know things that or or needs that women have and I think kind of having that aha moment and understanding that shifted everything for me and for as far as what I do with architecture because it became my mission to kind of create a world or even to raise the flag and for people to just be aware that everything around them is not best fit for them but I when I started to talk about architecture and gender equality the developers that I was working with they're the big shot developers they're all men obviously and and they were really shy away used to like not not like to talk about this topic and people warn me like don't don't say that this is what you're dealing with because you will lose work you will lose jobs you will lose project so I kind of started to try to find the way how to go about this without blaming anybody without pointing fingers and I really think that that's the key to everything that's the key to to to to climb a chain like to to to working around that I saw a really nice quote that says don't blame a clown for for acting like the clown ask yourself why you keep going to the circus so kind of the the way that I started to to talk about this was okay there is this future this future is in space on Mars far away from here this future doesn't exist yet we have to create it and this is why it's going to be better for everyone if this future would be equal not gender humanity wise and I started to kind of break it down with how you would benefit from having everyone happy or having a benefit in terms of money in terms of efficiency and once I was able to prove then equal future sometime somewhere far away from here it doesn't have anything to do with you your brother your father you're all fine you're all are awesome nobody's done anything bad and I really think that nobody's done anything bad I think our consciousness evolved and and things just changed around us and and people women didn't have rights at all like how how can you design an urban environment for women if women weren't the people using that space the place for a woman was at home that's just was the reality there's no point of wasting time and blaming I think to kind of shift the way we even say what the problem is is part of the solution so if we can prove financially that it's better psychologically that it's better mentally that it's better and to talk in general terms and talk about the future and talk about opportunities and not problems how we can take this as an opportunity to make things better and not to solve a problem that if there's a problem that means that somebody is in charge of that problem or somebody is to blame for that problem I think that's something that really helps to think about those things so right now even though I really focus on mentoring young girls and young women to go into STEM and STEAM and to kind of empower them and encourage them I really try to to make it even broader and it's not just gender equality it's human equality I also take it to to my latest research is about how different abilities here on earth become superpowers in space so kind of shifting again the way we think about people that are blind or their vision is impaired here on earth maybe in space there's something that is called space blindness when a person is in space for a long duration of time their eyesight gets impaired so maybe blind people would not have the mental impact of getting blind while in space on a mission maybe there could be even better astronauts and I kind of divided into different kinds of abilities mental, sensory, and physical and kind of to shift the blame game and to shift like even if we talk about climate cars that are polluting factories that are polluting and trying to point fingers just try to prove as if we are pitching for investors why is this important to invest in this idea and really try to look at things in a different way to change the terminology that is so beautiful there's really nothing I mean more that I can say about that and I know you're doing a lot more than that as well but you're a great voice and advocate around that I just had a podcast not too long ago I think it was came out last week or the week before with a professor Dr. Jenny Stephens which is really good she wrote a book diversifying power why we need anti-racist feminist leadership on climate and energy and the stories that she has is just amazing and I've kind of stalked you online your TED Talks and I've seen what you do and I know you're a strong advocate for that I really believe we need more of that and that shift in the future is really one that will change how humanity survives and sustains itself well into the future that we get that diversity that we change the playing field we raise the global operating system and the bar higher that where we're not dealing with some of these petty small things that we're dealing across the world with a lot of us now at the beginning you kind of mentioned you're not going to say why you moved in 2016 we know it's Trump but I don't have a problem at all talking about that asshole because he is such an idiot you know is a but that that idiot has done a lot of positive things to show us what are all the problems are in our world and what's wrong and how when humanity divides itself amongst itself even the united states whether it's democrat or republican or crazy oompa-lumpas and the rest of the world is just putting a black eye on humanity and where we really need to go for the future and it's a almost criminal behavior what what is going on which is delaying humanity from reaching that beautiful desirable future so the delays and the wasted time and the fake news and all the drama has just put us off on on really reaching that goal where we need to go as humanity to unify ourselves for a better future and so I hope that even for the the Trump followers that that has come been very clear that they're very small minority among the rest that are dividing themselves from the rest of humanity for us on the spaceship earth to to get to a beautiful future instead of unifying ourselves with some better operating system some better models for everyone I really think though that Trump is like you said is a gift in disguise kind of because really things were bad before him and in order for a change something really big had to happen I think Trump is the first thing and the pandemic is the second thing and we are all now suffering from it but I think that's how growing pains feel and it's kind of a pendulum that it's begins with extremes until we kind of settle in a comfortable place in the middle so so I really agree that as much as he represents almost all that is bad in the world and I think he brought up the conversation of leadership of setting an example yeah or what do you expect I mean you can talk about that about him or about other world leaders those people not necessarily would get a job as a security guard in a mall but they get the highest positions in the world I really think I mean when Trump was elected the handmaid's tale started that series based on on a book written in the 80s I think or even before that and it was so relevant and I really felt that that future that is portrayed in the series is something that could actually happen it's just literally something that could actually happen to us if nothing big is going to change and it kind of all happened together and I think that's not by change by chance I think our universe is kind of letting us notice something really really big and bad has been happening and we have to change things but I really do think that it's helpful not to point not to like to point fingers or to not to waste we don't have a lot of time so we don't have to waste time about thinking who did the worst or who contributed to the situation to the bad situation and really start thinking about about how can we solve this and I think that's kind of a way of thinking an optimist way of thinking that is really helpful I mean there's no it's kind of like Elon Musk is saying about the future of humanity in space as a interplanetary species and he says that thinking about a future that is not interplanetary species humans are not interplanetary species it's just depressing so really a lot of things that we should do is just start from that perspective because it can really bring people down I think this time has been it's easy to get frustrated and angry and you know I believe it yeah no I I'm full alignment with you and we need to use use it for good that brings me to an interesting question so you were just on a on an event in an event with Elon Musk's I don't know if it was on the same panel or if you guys got to speak but you were like back to back on the same event which is pretty cool your part was very cool but to be on there with Elon Musk that says a lot to what stature and what level you're at as well for my listeners but how was that can you tell us anything interesting about that I mean that's just crazy I mean that was I didn't get to talk to him especially because he he was supposed to be on like the rest of us it was supposed to be a physical actual convention in Washington it was first scheduled to be in May of 2020 and then it was postponed to September of 2020 and then it became I'm sorry and then it became an online event and Elon had to fly to Germany for like a Tesla crisis or something last minute so he did his interview by phone and I later found out that he was actually walking around a castle talking on the phone to us for like 20 minutes so I didn't really get to meet him and talk to him but I've been preparing for that moment which will happen for a few years now I think this whole thing everything that I do now in the space industry and also and the quality diversity aspects is things that I learned myself I only have a bachelor's degree in architecture although I study five years and then Europe qualifies for masters but by Israeli standards that's only bachelor's and and it's just insane to me that this is where I'm at and I'm not even in the beginning I mean just in the beginning but really everything that I do I kind of learned as I go and I think that kind of really that really helped me to progress and to have a big network of collaborators and partners and friends that I didn't really know where I'm I still don't really know where I'm going with this I still don't really know what my goal is and I think that's part of the that's what helps me to be so flexible with my unique path so being on that event which was by Explorer Mars it was called Humans to Mars Summit and not only Elon Musk was on there but Charles Bolden who was the former NASA administrator who I had the pleasure of meeting twice already in Israel and he's an amazing amazing person and I talked to him about diversity in the space industry which was incredible and a lot of other amazing astronauts were in that convention so it's a sometimes I can't believe that that's that I got to do that and it's a real honor and privilege and really is helping me to is giving me the platform to talk about these things that I personally never heard anyone talk about and kind of right now and the way I go about things is everything is possible I don't know if you heard there's going to be a second Israeli astronaut or tourist to the International Space Station and he is actually self funding his journey and it's very very expensive to go to space and he has the money and there was a big like shout out by like all the women in the in Israel the women that are in the space industry and why the second astronaut is a man and if he's funding himself do we have another woman that can find fund herself to go to space and and that kind of led us to discussing it and thinking who is that potential woman that can go to space the first Israeli female astronaut and out of nowhere I found myself in a position that it may be me in a few years and it's actually something that I'm considering people around me are considering and that's something that may may as well happen and then I got to think maybe it's not a matter of when it's it's not a matter of if it's a matter of when so I really think that really going with the opportunities you're given and not everything that you do is on the expense of something else that you don't that you don't do and kind of going with that and just seeing how things progress and when things are right kind of the universe is telling you that it's right so so that meeting or convention with Elon Musk on and was really a point of me being able to say this is crazy but I guess something I did something right here that I got this opportunity yeah I think there there's so many wonderful things there and I mean I have a lot of friends in Israel and I advise a bunch of companies in Israel and one of them is the left farms but my friends that are there a majority of them are are female and they that's one unique thing about Israel is that all females serve in the military so not only they they have that kind of boot camp the training experience the fortitude the physical abilities but they also learn some amazing skills that really make Israeli women are strong strong women powerful and have that aspect there so I'm sure there's tons of candidates but I could not think of a better one than you I think you'd be you'd be great so I'm rooting for you but yeah that's that's fabulous I think that's a that's also for me in some respects so gender equality diversity you know there's this equality as well as that that's seen and different in a lot of places it's it's really a forerunner another thing is Israel in some respects is also kind of a circular economy it's a closed environment in some respects the way they produce yeah that's and do things that's very resilient that's very the way they do it in a minimal and efficient spaces I think is as a world leader I eat or I have in the past I don't anymore but eat it in the past you know asparagus and potatoes from from from Israel and a lot of the vertical farming and controlled environmental agriculture do amazing things that I deal with from Israel so yeah I mean I really think that Israel those things that you're mentioning about Israel I mean if you think about it the reason that we have the military the reason that we are forced to progress technologically agriculturally is extreme extreme situation that we have here we are surrounded by enemies we are in the desert basically and we had to create growth stuff in the desert um we need the military to protect us but out of those things I mean I lived through four wars I think and I know there's no one Israeli person who doesn't know somebody who died in like a terrorist attack or a bombing school bus to my school exploded when I was 16 crazy insane things that people shouldn't really have to deal with but I think all those things kind of brought us to um having this mentality of everything can end tomorrow the world can end literally the world can end tomorrow so we might as well not stress the little things have you know the Israeli Hutzpah of saying what we think being extra warm being extra aggressive all those qualities that are sometimes problematic but there are a lot of times helpful especially in business to really put things into into the works and to progress ideas and and and new concepts and new things and and inventions so in that regard Israelis very unique and in the military you're right women are serving also in the military but women are serving two years and men are serving three years why is that I don't know I mean I do but I don't agree with now there is like a very small amount of female pilots in the military people are saying are questioning whether women should be in fighting combat positions or not so it's an amazing thing that women are in the military that gives us an edge and an advance and an advantage over other countries maybe but it's still far from from being equal I can't say from my personal experience I was in the intelligence unit and as an 18 year old to be given a lot of power a lot of responsibility that's where I first learned about space because intelligence uses satellites for grabbing information from the air about stuff that I cannot say by the way nobody even not my parents know what I did in the military it will kind of die with me but but that gave me a lot I mean I was too shy to even ask for someone on the phone before I got into the military and then I started to talk to like very very high ranked people in the military and outside of it and it kind of gave me the confidence it kind of gives you a growing up boost and it also gives you a clean slate people from all across the board of financial situations go to the military they wear the same thing they get the same very very basic salary if you don't have a home you can live in the base and it kind of gives you a fresh start in life I mean a lot of you can see it in the United States when it's not mandatory a lot of people that are struggling choose to go to the military here since it's mandatory everything the slate is wiped clean you're not richer or poorer than anyone else around you and I think that's pretty amazing I think that's something we could really take there's also the notion now that research proved that if you give citizens a very very small basic amount of money every month and to just allow them to survive to eat and to have a roof above their heads that would cost less than to fund homeless shelters and things like that yeah so I so true it's a consistent concept yeah I don't want to get into military and all that political and other things but I think it's a great learning experience and I love the fact that they do that and it still has room for improvement and I guess I would get into it I think that all military on our earth should be put into some kind of a social service or some kind of other service that instead of us fighting against each other we're all homo sapiens and earthlings so I would like us to resolve our issues between each other and drop the borders and work together as a planet to really create better futures until and use that monies the enormous amount of monies for better things for to go into space to cleaning up our environment to cleaning up our infrastructures and built environments I think that would be great but that's a whole nother ballaxing topic that we can get into but that really brings me to my hardest and question for you today it's the burning question WTF and it's not the swear word although we've been all doing it this year swearing and pulling out our hair it's the question what's the future I think what's the future needs an S at the end what's the futures there are many many options I think that in my personal opinion the thing that I hate the most about being human is the fact that I will not necessarily be able to see it not necessarily maybe I will I don't know with certain advances I think I think things are going to change very very rapidly we are definitely going to become interplanetary species in the next decade or less I think once that happens once the control over decisions like that leaves governments and becomes in the hands of corporations of private people I think a lot of power dynamics is going to shift women may get more higher in politics and leadership and companies and in countries by the way it's a whole conversation of nature versus nurture I don't necessarily think that women are better I think that's just the way we are brought up and things that happen that make a difference between perspectives like that but I'm very excited I think we are really in a time of growing pains it is really hard but I think it is that's the only way to go I mean I was waiting for something like this to happen it was obvious I mean it's something really big has to change in order for things to become better I don't think the earth is going to collapse in 50 years I do think we really have to understand that it's a danger and we have to completely change our mindset in terms of sustainability but I can answer this question I think for an hour trying to kind of condense my thoughts into something coherent but I really think that our future is going to have on the one hand a lot more technology and AI and things like that on the other hand a new found appreciation from human psychology human creativity human things that for now at least machines can't really replace so I wouldn't be scared of that the world economic forum says that the majority of jobs we have today are going to be obsolete but about two or three times as many new jobs are going to form so it's really a matter of perspective things are going to change you can choose to cry about it or you can choose to get really really really excited about it and kind of morph yourself or evolve yourself with it with that change so for anyone who's listening I think that the future is really really interesting and exciting and new and yeah I think we have all the resources to do that so is there any project or something special you're working on or that's coming that you would like to share with us or tell us about that something exciting or that that you're kind of working on that you or you want to tell us what's next from your compound so many things and so many things I'm under NDA that I can't share at the moment which is very very sad um right now I'm I have a new position on as a member of Board of Advisors on a new venture capital that is a joint mission of Israel and the Emirates which is interesting it's an interesting combination and the goal of this DC is to invest in space startups that have those startups have to have an earthly implication even before that space thing and that's very very interesting to me something that I'm happy to share there's not really anything that people can really see yet about it but that's something that is very very new and exciting for me personally a lot of projects that I'm doing are very very exciting but unfortunately I can't really share it um my time now is really shifting from working I always say that as an architect I work on projects with gravity and without gravity and the shift is going more towards the without gravity part and that innovation and imagining and those aspects so I'm very very excited about those things I will be happy to share when the time is right I really feel that there's no pressure I just wanted to know if there was something in your mind that you wanted to share with us but I actually have three last questions for you before we wrap up and that is a sustainable takeaway for our listeners something that they could apply or put into their lives if there was one message so you could depart to to my listeners that had the power to change their life what would it be your message I don't know if it's the best one but it's the first thing that comes to my mind you don't have to choose if you either recycle or you are pro-equality or if you are making money and you want to help the people that are less less fortunate I think you can and that's the big challenge I think of our times is to understand that kind of like the SCGs there's so many points where we should all focus all those points in some way or another it's okay to have something that is more close to our hearts or not but I think that it's time for kind of an awakening and to really understand that everything that we do have an impact it's we can't allow ourselves to turn a blind eye on anything Black Lives Matter equality the climate change we don't have that privilege anymore just to say doesn't concern me I'm going to focus on my narrow thing I mean the same way that you can be a nice person and recycle you can do all those things so I think that's that's the big big message right what should young innovators in architecture or in the space field be thinking about if they're looking for ways to make real big impacts I think that that's an interesting question I think what worked for me is to really discover honestly what you're good at and what you love to do and combine it with what you're passionate about it's not necessarily the same thing I think that's the secret recipe of startups or of inventions to just really do something that you know you're good at don't go in directions that maybe I mean be humble to know that maybe there are people that are better than you in something but understand what you're good at combine it with what you're passionate about and really start to talk to people about it you can be the most talented human in the world but if you sit in a dark room and nobody knows about your talent and about your dreams nothing is going to happen and you're not going to have impact so I think in some ways to have connections those human connections that network the global network that people should really take advantage of the time we're living and to have a bigger global network that's something that I think people should really really focus on if they have big dreams and desire to make an impact right what have you experienced or learned in your professional journey so far that you would have love to know from the start so many things I think I think I don't know if I've known things from the start when is that start I don't think maybe in my personal growth as a human I would know I would have known what to do with that information you know what I mean I think I think that it's usually the journey you know it's really about the journey that you learn but like for me example how I would answer that as I'd say boy I wish I would have realized sooner and begun sooner if I would have started sooner the impact the amount of change the things that it could have done would be enormous and that's kind of my biggest wish but a lot of people really really say they love the journey you know that that process of journey the discovery is something I really do think that the journey is the main thing because if I started earlier maybe I wasn't as resilient as a person to kind of be confident enough to go I mean I lost a lot of work because I talked about what I believe in I didn't I faced a lot of men offering me jobs in terms of dates and things like that I mean I think that those things if I would start to do everything that I do earlier maybe I would not have the strong backbone that I have today so I really do think that all in good time is kind of the slogan here because there is no time that is too late to do something I think the journey is really really important really understanding where you are in it I really think that a lot of things that I'm doing now I wouldn't have been able to do if I started earlier obviously I would love to have as much time as possible to do everything I do and to have the most connections but I really think that those things are evolving with you and it's really to understand where you are as a human where you are in relation to everyone around you and to the world around you and to the time that we're living in I think those realizations came to me in the right time I think and it doesn't mean that I just woke up one day with them I studied and I learned and the first time that I was accepted to a space accelerator for eight days with people from NASA I had no idea about how to even talk about space and I didn't know the terminology and every night I didn't sleep and I just read really really boring articles just to have that terminology to be able to carry on conversations during the day so I worked really really hard for this but I really do think that things come to you in the right time in your personal development and it's never too late to go about those things Mika, thank you Mika it's been an absolute pleasure it's been so exciting and nice to speak with you we could really talk for hours because there's so many more things we could do unless you have something else you'd like to share or tell me or ask me I'm done I appreciate your time and I hope we can catch up again in a year and get an update on how you're doing of course of course I would love that yeah I mean I feel that every single topic of these things we can really dive deeper and talk for hours so to be cognizant of our listeners' time also I think maybe this is enough food for thought for now but yeah I would definitely love to continue this conversation and thank you again for having me it's been a true pleasure and honor to speak to you about these topics thank you so much Mika and we'll talk to you again very soon have a wonderful holiday season new year happy Hanukkah and we'll talk to you soon thank you yeah thank you bye bye