 So welcome today, I am speaking with Anna Katarina Schaftner, who is both an academic researcher, correct me if I'm wrong, and a coach, would you define yourself as a life coach or? Probably not life coach, yeah, just exhaustion coach. And yeah, I'm also, I just quit my university job. So I'm now a full-time writer and coach. And that's good. So you're doing a little bit the opposite of what I did is like I refused to enter academia when I was younger to be a full-time writer. And then I decided that this would not necessarily be incompatible. But congratulations for daring to jump out of the sort of a golden prison of academia. And so what is an exhaustion coach? Is that you exhaust your clients until they have an epiphany? The opposite, Louis. Yeah, so I work with the weary, the exhausted, you know, with people who languish. I have a lot of clients who are burned out. And the kind of work I do with them is, first of all, to understand, you know, what caused the exhaustion, what draws out their energy, in what areas of life, you know, they feel dead and stuck. And then we use various different tools and techniques to make sure that they can reconnect to their purpose and to what is fulfilling to them and what gives them energy. And we use Stoic techniques. So I'm a huge fan of the Stoic circle of control, which is fantastic for people who are, you know, short on energy because knowing where to spend our attention and where to direct our energy, our limited energy to is really important, especially when we don't have a lot of it. And so a lot of my clients really, you know, either languishing or properly burned out and burnout is an extremely serious condition, you know, that makes people completely unable to function at work and often also in their private lives. And I started out working on exhaustion as an academic. I wrote a long history of exhaustion. I was really interested in, you know, the idea that we've never been as exhausted before, you know, that burnout is the, you know, the epidemic of our age that, you know, neoliberal capitalism has is sucking us all dry because we have so much energy to expand too many stimuli social media is constantly, you know, capitalizing our attentions I was really curious about whether people in the past have also felt exhausted, or whether we are alone with that struggle. That sounds really intriguing, because I was thinking about, you know, sometimes when people are beginners in philosophical thinking, I tend to tell them, go to the etymology whenever you're stuck, go to the etymology of the world. I was immediately thinking what might be the etymology of exhaustion. The depletion of a limited resource. Right. A limited there so that's I mean, wouldn't you say that it's a matter of point of view also I mean of course it's a matter of getting trapped into certain behavior, right, and then you do end up tapping into resources that are limited. But also, I was thinking about a point of view in the sense that there is a perspective from which we are life is unlimited, right, life is a sort of an ever renewing process. And of course, seems to be some sort of a dialectic there because perhaps the person who gets into a burnout is someone who had, in some cases might have had too much faith into their capacity to continue forever right. But perhaps that faith can be sort of rediscovered for what it is which is a trust in life, but life is not just about this line of production right that you're suggesting about capitalism. Yeah, I think actually you're mentioning interesting metaphors there as well. I think quite a lot of the talk about productivity, you know all the productivity hacks the idea that we can reprogram ourselves that we like machines that need to change their hardwiring that we like computers that need you know like kind of refresh or we need new software or we need to fine tune some of our mechanics you know these metaphors are really damaging because we are, you know, organisms that are alive and changing and are interacting with our environments and we're not in any way like machines but a lot of the self help literature and a lot of the, you know, kind of coaching talk as well uses very mechanical very technological metaphors that liken us to robots who can just keep on going and of course we can. We need a good balance between spending energy and renewing our energy and I think what I see in a lot of my clients is that when you enter the burnout cycle. You become cut off from what re energizes you so you just expend and you expend energy on tasks become increasingly more toilsome and laborsome and difficult, but you don't allow yourself to replenish, you know, because you fall behind in your work, you are impressed about your workload and the fact that you're not coping so you cut out rest you cut out joy you cut out connections with others and that's a vicious cycle and then you just end up with a total imbalance between what energizes you and what costs your energy. You are the first, you know, terrible mechanics of burnout that you just spend energy and you don't replenish it. And then also resting becomes almost impossible for people who are burned out you know they kind of language in this gray zone. They're neither working nor do they allow themselves to rest. They're still driven in that in between space, blaming themselves for being unable to work and unable to rest. Right. Well, it sounds like you're doing some sort of since you mentioned the story. So I'd like to hear more about that, but it sounds like you're doing some sort of philosophical counseling but adapted to a specific population. Yeah. Yeah, it's funny because I, I wasn't aware of, you know, philosophical counseling as a concept, nor was I aware of the concept of philosophical health and I read up on that. And so I'm really intrigued. Yeah, I would say I am doing that I, I mean, I'm a historian and a literature scholar by training so my interest is also in bringing historical knowledge into the therapeutic process. So I'm really interested in how our attitudes to work and time, for example, are shaped by the current zeitgeist and by, you know, older religious and cultural forces, and we often operate on cultural scripts of which we are not aware. And, you know, especially burnout clients often have really toxic and damaging ideas about work, productivity, time, value, and so on in their minds and they're not even aware that they are actually shaped by these conceptions and some of them go back all the way to, you know, the age of puritanism and Calvin's doctrines and so on. So I think one of the things I try to do in my coaching is also to bring in sociological and historical and philosophical ideas as curative elements as healing ingredients, you know, because some of our suffering is not just individual suffering psychology is a big factor but I would say that culture and cultural forces and cultural ideas often have a key role to play in our mental well being. Right. Yeah, and I think your training is correct me if I'm wrong your training is is German. Mine is is French. So I think we are culturally trained to think outside of our disciplines, which is not it's less I mean things have changed. And we shouldn't do easy distinctions right. But so of course, philosophy should be also historical history should also be philosophical etc. And this you bring as an interdisciplinary perspective, which might in itself be be refreshing for your practice because sometimes and again I'm, I'm speaking as a non specialist I'm just imagining what it might be to have a burner. But I think a lot of it comes from this dominance of analytic thinking since the industrial revolution, which is very monotropic right much into spaces of specialism that exclude the rest of the world, and that become infinitely infinitesimally even controlling spaces. I remember someone one day I I directed a short movie. I was not really thinking about going into cinema. But someone told me, oh, if you, if you go into cinema, don't study cinema. Do like the Americans they don't know anything about cinema and the direct movie. Because if you study cinema you're going to start discovering this huge domain you're going to become a specialist. And that might, I mean, that might in some way make it more difficult to reconnect with the creative I think it's important to know about the history of what we do. But then the challenge on how to remain creative is even more important. And I think that's echoes the sort of chiasm we have with academia. I avoided Canada for a long time because I wanted to write my novels and my essays and I had this intuition that it might castrate me sorry for this male metaphor. But isn't it why also you're you're living academia now or is it or is it because you just want to focus completely on your practice. I think I know what you're talking about. I mean, there's a lot of, I think, you know, when you approach certain areas in a highly analytical highly rational and also really critical way, you know, because of course we're also trained to be critical at all times in academia. You know, especially in the humanity subjects, you know, you're trained to be a critic, and always finding the faults, the inconsistencies, you know, disagreeing with others. So, so it's a very particular mindset and I think you know the kind of emphasis on left brain rational is definitely stifling to creativity and it's also not valued in certain areas in academia where you have to adhere to very rigorous conceptions of what is, you know, what has cash in academia and what doesn't. And for me, the reason why I decided to leave was also because I've always been really interested in the history of psychology, the history of exhaustion and the history of self-improvement but at some point I realized that, you know, the theory is one thing but the practice and lived experience of these fields is something else entirely. And in fact, when I wrote my book on the art of self-improvement, I decided to train as a coach just to, you know, get a sense of what works and what doesn't work and how some of those theories might actually impact real people. And then I just fell in love with coaching, I have to say, I've always flirted with becoming a therapist, but I find coaching actually much more appealing and rewarding as a concept because there's more freedom in that framework. And you also work with different kinds of people, you know, you don't just work with people who are struggling with very serious issues, but also with people who just want to grow and improve and gain insights and who are not necessarily in a very dark place to begin with. So it's extremely interesting and rewarding and energizing work. But for me, I think what I really wanted to explore was the lived experience and the practice of self-improvement. And it's a form of learning that, you know, because you were talking about the monoculture of reason, you know, I think coaching is also a form of learning that is not just rational, it's experiential. And it is a form of learning where you actually have to get out of your head. And, you know, for me, that's something I struggle with as well. So we always kind of teach what we need to learn ourselves. So for me that was definitely the area to go, you know, where you have to actually, I think for me what makes coaching so exciting is this transition from insight, cognitive insight into something that you feel and that live and breathe and that begins to color how you see yourself and how you experience the world. I really resonate with what you say because I had the training in psychoanalysis, which I never wanted to put in practice, because I think that a lot of therapy has become extremely normative. You're not listening to the person, you're just applying a greed. So it took me many years of reflection and actually it's, I, as I told you, I did my PhD quite late when I thought I was strong enough to keep my creativity while being an academic. And but very soon after I decided to start a practice in philosophical counseling in 2018. And this is something that started actually in Germany and the US in the 80s. And with few isolated figures who of course are inspired by the philosophical practice of ancient Greece and ancient Rome, which was indeed therapeutic, or thought to be so. And I noticed, I mean, probably you'll tell me if the experience was similar. I didn't think I was a person who, for example, had the necessary qualities. For example, I didn't think I was necessarily the most, the person with the most capacity for empathy. But I discovered a dimension which I call intellectual empathy, which is different from emotional empathy. And I think that, well, I discovered this is something actually that works. And you were mentioning, and we'll get into the stoics, but you're mentioning philosophical health where it came to my mind that yeah, this is as much as physical health was sort of invented by an elite in the early 19th century and became this sort of necessity for all for good and bad. The same thing for psychological health, one century later, right, it starts with a luxury for the happy few in Vienna or so and becomes necessary for all. And I think the 20th century, we are in the moment where philosophical health, which I think you're practicing in a way is a luxury for some. So our job is also to see that it doesn't become a norm that it remains retains this sort of openness of possibilities. But I wanted to ask you, I mean, you can react on what I just said, but I also wanted to ask you, and what do you take from the stoics. And then, and this might be related. Is it self improvement or self transcendence? Yeah. Gosh, where to start now. I think, you know, what you described this movement away from seeing everything through the lens of individual psychology towards focusing in on, you know, questions of ethics and how to live, you know, and eudaimonia and those ancient Greek concepts. I mean, there's been a real renaissance in coaching circles and self help circles. And now, you know, you told me about this movement of philosophical health that has been active in the 1980s. I mean, I've noticed because I studied the literature of self help. I noticed there's a massive stoic renaissance going on like a real interest in stoic thoughts and I have my theory about why that is happening right now. And I do think that at times when we feel particularly out of control, you know, when external circumstances become increasingly complex and, you know, globalization, neoliberal, global, techno capitalism, everything's becoming highly complex and we worry about our individual agency and our impact on these ever more complex systems. So I think there is a reason why we feel very drawn to the idea of we can at least control what's inside us. You know, we have our own reactions, judgments and emotions and rational processes to control this idea of control, you know, control in a world that seems to be out of control and where control and agencies becoming ever scarcer is highly attractive. I also think that a lot of people, and that, you know, relates again to what you said, Louis, a lot of people are tiring of the kind of focus on individual psychology, it's, you know, the self is ultimately quite a poolside for meaning I think there's a real thirst for connecting with higher principles, you know, with something spiritual with something that is communal in our age of, you know, hyper individualist, monadic capitalism, there is just this longing for for something else and I think self help is moving in that direction, you know, away from the, you know, to enhance your personal effectiveness to the utmost degree towards, you know, what does fulfillment purpose and so on actually mean. And a lot of people agree that it can't just be something utterly self centered, you know, there needs to be some communal altruistic or element of transcendence to it for it to be, you know, to have some kind of pole. And you asked me about what, what what appeals to what kind of ideas I use that are stoic ideas in my coaching so I do think, you know, the idea of the circle of control what we can control and what we can control it's very simple it's very well known it's and it's highly effective and incredibly hard to practice right I mean this idea that you focus on your attention and your energy and your awareness on what you can control and you try and detach as much as possible from what you can't control. And that's one thing I try to practice with my clients, especially those who are very exhausted and who are very limited in energy they need to know where to put their limited energy right where it can make a difference where it can actually have an effect. And I also love the stoic idea of, you know, just the sense that we, we, I love that the stoics don't overestimate their individual agency, you know, their impact the impact that they can have on the world and at the same time I do think they're a little bit too pessimistic about that. And, you know, modern psychologists have added the sphere of influence to the stoic model right you have the kind of circle of control, your, you know, your inner citadel your inner reactions basically, then you have what is outside of your control and nowadays people talk about the circle of influence which of course is an interesting sphere right that's the gray zone, because when, when we control our inner life that will have an impact on on the people with whom we interact it will have an impact on the projects to which we are dedicated. And what that impact is and how we can actually grapple with it and and how far we can rely on it is is a totally different question. So the, yeah, this idea of where do we, where do we invest our energy I think that's a really important question and a lot of people scatter their energy all over the place without without realizing it so when we when we when we actually look at our energy in a more strategic way. I think that can make a huge difference already. Just for the sake of dialogue, I'm going to challenge you a bit on not so much on the financial metaphors of investment. But on the fact that and and it's more challenge to the fashion of stoicism. I've had my, my moment where I read a lot of stoicism in my 1890s and it's true you're right that a lot of people discover today philosophy as a way of life through the story. But very often, I think the versions. It's, it's a very one sided view of what stoicism is. It's suspiciously apolitical. It has a lot of fatalism in it. And very self centered in a way. We tend to forget the fact that the stoics, they were, they had a religion in fact but a very pure religion of imminent nature which is which is rather close to neoplatonism in fact. So they were into self transcendence. That is, and I love your expression the south is a poor site for meaning that's beautiful sentence. So it is really about the process, which was very important for the Greeks. For Christianism, what they call apotheosis or theosis right becoming like God but in the sense like that we, we, we forget our, our self limitation to sort of entrance in communion with the imminence of nature and that aspect. I think might be forgotten today. But you mentioned very meaningfully that indeed people are realizing that the self help the self development hides an obsession for for the self that is, that is rather problematic. In the sense that, well, we also have, as you mentioned yourself people are scattered. We also have a series of people are not necessarily feeling exhausted, but they are feeling scattered in the sense that they have too many choices in the, but they see that those choices are objects in front of them that are products of capitalism right so they are so it like in the supermarket of destiny as opposed to feeling and I like the fact that you mentioned the the reconnection with the feeling is something I work a lot in my approach to philosophical hatch with the pre-electric so there is this central cosmology of, you know, process philosophy which may have many names I call it the creel created real. The, the Asian grits call it the one or more recently, as you know, the list could difference perks on a lot of vital. There are many names right. And it's important he did to, to show people that the, the highest faculty of thinking, which is so much attacked today by a very, I think, emotionally society is very connected to the wisdom of the body. And in fact, it says if sometimes as if this reptilian emotions and instincts and desires are in, in the middle, sort of impeding the, the transmission between our very primal primeval being in the world. And, and, and the capacity of thinking really in the Greek sense of theory theory right the communion with the divine. So, there was a lot in there but, but please tell me how you, you negotiate with this, you know, dualism that is sometimes present in stoicism. Yeah, I think I know exactly what you're, what you're saying was this idea that I think a lot of people use stoicism, first of all, as, as a means to feeling calmer and more in control. And you could say that's a selfish aim right that's about enhancing their well being at some level. But I would always say, there's a second step, of course, you know, and in, in coaching, we don't accept what are called dead men's goals. You know, for example, someone comes and says, Oh, I want to feel less tired and exhausted. I want to feel more confident. I want to feel calmer. I want to become thinner. So people come with quite a few aims that that are about not wanting to do something right I want to stop overeating I want to stop being feeling socially awkward I want to stop feeling so tired. But the question is always to do what right what will you do when you're saying what will you do when you're confident. What will you do when you have that stoic equanimity. And when you have that calmness of mind when you're no longer rattled by external circumstances. What will you do then. There's always that second step and I think you because you asked about transcendence and and you know connection with a bigger creative force. And I do think that this is when the question of purpose and meaning becomes important, you know, because not wanting to do something is is not meaningful in itself. It is a way towards enabling you to do something else and I do see self improvement, ultimately, as something that doesn't stop with just fixing yourself making yourself more productive making yourself more effective. It's about being able to direct your energies outwards. Right the improved self in my definition doesn't just enhance itself for the purpose of self enhancement or to be more productive or better at X, Y and Z. The improved self is able not to waste energies on the inside but to direct these energies outwards to other people to creative projects, or towards, you know, seeking some form of transcendence so I do think that that second step is absolutely crucial. And I agree with you that some some versions of stoicism kind of stop at the, you know, in a calmness level. But what do you do when you're calm right there's still something you have to do with your new state of calmness and equanimity as such is not life's purpose. And I do think that we tend to, you know, we tend to underestimate the what then, you know, it's like someone wants to be really rich but then you have money what you do with it, you know, what what then what you do when you're confident. And I do think a lot of people actually don't even go there, you know, they just see what they desperately want or what they desperately don't want. But then the bigger question is the one that touches on on purpose and transcendence. Yeah, I think you're suggesting something that is important is that in our practices we see people that are singular. So right now we're sort of generalizing for the purpose of the art of conversation and which is a pleasure in itself. And it's true that where we see in front of us with each person is always different and and some nuances might apply. Having said that, I would even add that they will never reach equanimity they would never reach calmness they will never reach this sort of detachment as a step one, if they don't do step two first. And you're talking about purpose. Yes, becoming an ideal embracing an idea, finding a meaning that we think would get not only us, but the rest of humanity closer to paradise on earth. Because I think that's what philosophy about is about historically if you look already in play to etc. It's philosophy came at a moment where religion was the dominant and said paradise doesn't have to be after we die. Paradise can be here so there's a think philosophy is religion plus politics in a way. So, let's talk about purpose then. I think it's important and you sort of alluded to it. Many people have a misunderstanding but what purpose is right. So they say, oh, I want to be a doctor. That's not a purpose that strategy there are many reasons why one would like to be a doctor, not all of them being beneficial for sort of the harmonious view of what the world could be. Why, I mean, it's clear that people are searching for purpose and people do not have a very clear view on how to get there. Since you are an historian, why do you think this comes now at the beginning of the 21st century, as opposed to 100-200 years ago? Yeah, I think obviously the kind of externally prescribed models of meaning have fallen away hundreds of years ago, right? Like with secularization and romanticism and the cherishing of originality and individualism and so on. And purposes become more of an individual search and journey. And then I think in the second half of the 20th century, when perhaps the kind of age of psychology peaked and purpose was very much related to inner psychological values. And then you also had in the 1980s and the 90s to a certain extent kind of quite crude version of materialism out there. I think both of those external purposes haven't delivered happiness, right? They haven't delivered what people were expecting. They have made people feel probably even more despondent. So I do think that the kind of narrative of material comfort, the narrative of self-fulfillment and self-realization, those kind of narratives have become a bit old and they haven't quite worked. And also partly because they are so detached from community. And I do think that in the 21st century, we're also seeing the death of a lot of grand, so-called grand narratives, which makes people feel particularly adrift and particularly just lost in a sea of options. And I think optionality is an issue that people didn't have so much in previous eras. Like this idea you can be everything you want to be. You can find the perfect job for yourself. This idea that we have infinite choice and we just need to find the one thing that will make us happy. And our choices have increased, right? I mean, we can choose ever more options regarding our lifestyles, our identities, and so on. So that choice is also, you know, what Alain Ehrenberg, the sociologist, talked about the weariness of self. This idea that that kind of freedom becomes a terrible freedom at some point, that kind of freedom becomes oppressive because we can make mistakes, right? And when we have so many options, we naturally want to make the right choices. We want to maximize our, you know, our capacity to create the optimal life for ourselves, and it's impossible. And it's really really hard to do. So I do think there's something about, you know, the loss of community, the increase in options, the pressure to get it right. And then also our fetishization of work, right? And that's one of the topics that keeps coming up with my clients all the time, that we expect salvation from work, right? This narrative that work has to be meaningful. We have to love what we do. We have to feel incredibly passionate about our work. So we expect from our work not just a salary, status, security, and so on, but we expect work to furnish us with an identity and with meaning and with fulfillment, you know. So work has become massively over-determined and it lets us down, right? And while our expectations of what work should deliver have risen dramatically, the reality of works become ever worse, ever more horrific. And so there's a massive gap between our ideals of work and the reality of work. Right, work as vocation. But I would simply add, and I think this is between the lines of what you just said, is that the problem is not that work is the result of vocation, because I think that's good. The problem is that what is out there in the market does not fulfill the conditions for meaningful work, a lot of it. I would like to share the screen with you because I stumble upon this Goethe's quotation this morning and I think it's quite fit for what we're saying. You can read it, right? And I think this resonates well with what you're saying because in a way I think people are looking for forms of life today. And this is, I think it's a great opportunity for pluralism. And at the same time, it generates a lot of anxiety to which people respond differently. I think people who dive into a work that is not fulfilling are sort of trying to hide the anxiety of something more meaningful, perhaps. These forms of life at the same time, they seem to be more and more, even just the possibility of different forms of life seems to be threatened more and more by the kind of hyper-structure that is being put in place slowly, right? The digital hyper-structure, very normative. Now, a way I would add, nice cat, I would add also the idea of, you know, the fact that with globalization, we are less and less diverse in fact under the discourse of diversity. In fact, we see people who are very much the same with just different skin colors. But now I'm curious about, I see you, and I see you between hell and the heart as a lonely hunter. So it makes me think of Hegel's idea that we must, you know, we must go through the negative in order to find the real synthesis. Is that some sort of a message that it's conveying or am I over-interpreting? Yeah, Luis, you're the first to comment on both and the way they dialogue. Interesting. I'm not consciously a message I was trying to send, but I do think that we have a lot to learn from hell in its various forms. Adversity and, you know, and the shadow side and the darkness, absolutely. I think without it, the light is not as bright. Right. Yeah, I think that's a little bit the discourse of various narratives that speak of self-transcendence, because of course self-transcendence is not a giant jacuzzi, right? It's not a spiritual spat. It is, although I wouldn't define myself as a Catholic by practice, probably somehow by culture, but it is Jesus in the cross, right? That sort of idea that hopefully we don't have to to suffer that much, but we do have to experience the negative. We have to embody and that part of that today takes the form, I would agree with you, takes the form of saying no to various, to this sort of lunar park of possibilities, right? And we see, I think we see a lot of people. I don't know about that, by the way, but we often talk about the burnout with people who have this work, you know, uniform burnout, but I would assume that there's a burnout of people who want to try too many things. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think the burnout can have so many different causes. And I think a lot, you know, on the one hand, you know, like if you define it strictly in occupational health terms, it's work related and it's the result of a kind of chronically stressful toxic working environment where people aren't appreciated, have too many tasks to complete in too short a timeframe and, you know, aren't making, aren't being self valued and so on. But, but then I think a lot of people who are self employed can suffer from burnout as well, right? You don't need to be in a toxic working environment. You don't need to have evil bosses. You don't even need to be in a kind of, you know, horrifically competitive neoliberal market structure. You can also burn out because of what's going on inside you. You know, we sometimes have internalized, we can be our own slave drivers, right? We can be our own merciless bad bosses, regardless of where we are. I think a lot of, a lot of burnout is generated by clearly definable external causes. Absolutely. But there's also inner dimensions, you know, some scripts we may follow, some beliefs we have internalized about our value and how it relates to our productivity and our work and our output and so on. I think burnout is a really complex phenomenon, but it's of course really interesting that everyone is talking about it right now that it's so prevalent that it's really one of the defining epidemics of our age. But I do think that, you know, the topic of exhaustion is much older than it goes back all the way to ancient antiquity. I would say at some level, people in all cultures have worried about exhaustion because exhaustion is about losing your life force, you know, feeling it ever way feeling it diminish as we age and, you know, fear of illness fear of death and also fear of loss of life and, you know, the idea that we may slip into apathy into nihilism into not caring anymore. And, and every culture has explained exhaustion differently and pinned it onto different causes, you know, some external some internal material, some material, some psychological, some technological, you know, you have all these different narratives about what causes exhaustion and our narratives one amongst many, but I would say that obviously with new technologies. There is a factor there that has become exponentially impactful on our mental health. And I know you have, I know you have to go soon. So I think we need to do another conversation perhaps one of these days to continue this but perhaps we could conclude it by saying that it's about not betraying one's essence that people think that they can take shortcuts to success by betraying their essence might end up in a position where if the essence can be compared to a fountain, only a few drops are left. Yes, I think we would agree and that also would take a longer conversation. But I think we would agree both of us that the fountain is never completely dead, right, we can always take out the stones that block the source and we understood I think that this is what you do and it's probably in a way what I also do and, and I think the the I think what is beautiful is that what you're doing is entering life is embracing life from the point of view of someone who has dedicated many years and continues in a way or another to knowledge. And, and I think that it's something that needs to be cherished because knowledge is not very much respected as something vital today to the point that we might be tempted to abandon it, even to a so called AI, right. That's another conversation also. But yes, is there another in the last minutes or so common to topic or message that you want to send to the world. You know, I just love that metaphor of the fountain, you know, that might be blocked and we can, we can move away the stones. And we will always find that there's still some energy that will never cease and that can always bubble up again so I really like that idea and I think that's, that's the work of counseling and coaching isn't it to, to remove those blocks. Indeed. Thank you very much. Thank you. I will stop the recording.