 Can before I start can I ask what do what in terms of time? What do people usually do? Okay, and like you mentioned I noted that Megan wanted to have some time as well. I think what I have to say is about 20 minutes 15 or 20 minutes That'd be great and that'll leave time for Megan and time for questions Yeah, so Yeah, sure. So Thank you for having me good good to be with you. I assume people will continue to drop in and so I'll just begin if I could by saying I want to be very clear about What I'm representing and not representing right now. So I do serve in the state Senate from Shetland County and As part of that work, I was the chair of education overseeing K through 12 and also higher ed I've now moved to the Appropriations Committee where I also have the higher ed portfolio So I do that work in my other life. I've been a 28 year veteran in the English Department at the University of Vermont And if I could I'd like to speak from that perspective tonight so somebody who Teaches in the College of Arts and Sciences and has taught there for a long time and sees maybe trends over history So with that said, I just wanted to start with as an answer to the question. What's going on at UVM? Let me just start with what's not going on at UVM. So Another thing that I do through the state Senate is I'm sitting on something called the Select Committee on public higher education in Vermont and that was a committee put together to deal with the future of the state colleges and If you've if you've read the news about the state colleges, you know that their financial situation has been Continues to be pretty dire so They were looking at closing half of their campuses and Not being able to make payroll So that is an existential financial crisis the difference between Being open for business and being closed for business. That is not going on at UVM UVM is in relatively strong financial shape and if I could I'd like to quote from a piece that my colleague Helen Scott wrote and Helen's got titled the piece to struggle for the soul of the University of Vermont and in the course of that she talks about Where the university is financially and she says quote, this is not a budget crisis, but a values crisis Far from being in a state of financial Exigency the university as a whole is remarkably well off the 2020 year-end financial report Showed a net increase of 24 million There's an untapped 34 million dollar rainy day fund and an endowment of more than half a billion and What I would add to that is that the last few capital campaigns have been remarkably successful and they have been record-breaking the last two Drawing in hundreds of millions of dollars So my point is that UVM is in an extremely solid financial position and all of the worst-case scenarios about the pandemic Aside, it can't argue that it's facing a financial crisis that would really merit Radical shifts in the mission of the University Except of course, that's exactly what the university is arguing So I'm just going to pause and note that there will probably be a response to this talk by Enrique Cordera in about three days in the commentary section of Vermont Digger You can check my accuracy in a couple of days, but I would imagine that they will That they will disagree and say that in fact their financial situation is precarious With that noted, let me just talk about what I see going on from where I sit in the College of Arts and Sciences I think that what we're seeing at UVM is a relatively obvious methodical attempt to shift the basic mission and character of the University and I think it's not coincidental that the major shifts have happened during moments of national emergency What is that shift? It's a really dramatic movement away from the arts and humanities and Toward an ever-increasing emphasis on science technology and medicine And if you think about it, that's an identity much more in line with institutions like MIT or Purdue So here's the historical pattern ice. So I would ask you to cast your memories back to 2007 2008 2009 what we now call the Great Recession So the Great Recession hit there was the bursting of the housing bubble and there was a Truly frightening global financial crisis We can argue about what caused it or whether it was exclusively greed in certain quarters of the US system or whether there were other Substantial causes, but that was a fact of life and the University was impacted dramatically coming out of that part of the Or part of the shift in emphasis after the global recession was the creation of what was then called spires of excellence now We joked a lot in the English department at the time about the spires of excellence Because it seems to suggest that everything outside the spire is sort of the valley of mediocrity and So we we had a lot of fun with it, but we were also Worried and anxious Because what the spires of excellence was was an overt statement by the University that they were going to select certain areas for growth and substantial investment and There was a You know what I think purported to be a town hall Forum to settle on these spires of excellence But they pretty much turned out to be what everyone knew they were going to be and that was neuroscience complex systems and food systems And at about the same time Environmental science was also elevated in terms of the resources it was getting so Our worry was that we would be at first frozen in terms of hiring and resources but that eventually they would not be They being general administration would not be happy Simply with freezing, but would rather start to cut our budgets in the other areas in the arts and sciences And so if you come up to the present day you have the pandemic in 2020 and In the midst of that The announcement that college of arts and sciences was going to phase out 12 majors 11 minors four masters programs And that's fully one-fifth of the college's offerings And the departments of classics religion and geology would be axed entirely So those two things when I look at them Defined the last 12 years for me and they show you that there's a consistent trend And it gets dramatic and accelerated when there's a national moment of financial crisis And usually the explanation is Either explicitly or implicitly that the financial crisis is driving these particular changes But it it gets more complicated than that and more I will use the word surreal Because there's in the arts and sciences There's a little bit of a a feeling of alice and wonderland to all of this But this movement away from the humanities and towards the STEM disciplines is the constant And what's surreal about it is that the college of arts and sciences has long been Since I got here and and until the present day one of the cash cows of the university other words It it produces a good deal more revenue than it gets or is allowed to keep From the university and it has more than its share of majors And I think that's generally understood And even the administration will admit that but they admit it in a certain curious way But to prove that everybody knows this I want to read you just a little bit from the burlington free press The burlington free press is not always the most biting in its analysis But they published a great article in 2014 When the stem complex was announced It was going to be the largest capital investment in uvm history And it was going to completely devote itself to the teaching of the stem disciplines And the way the uh The free press covered it Quote the big investment the university of ramon is planning for its stem initiative The lies the relatively small numbers of graduates from certain science technology engineering and math programs The capital investment is expected to amount to over 100 million The university's largest to date covering a massive new building and an adjacent major renovation on the central campus The new complex will accommodate fields in science technology engineering and mathematics Here's the key part the graduates who received bachelor's degree in uvm's designated stem disciplines This year amounted to about nine percent of the graduating class A review of uvm statistics for the last decade shows that stem majors comprised fewer than 10 percent in every year but one They go on to say the modest number of graduates do nothing to diminish the enthusiasm Of provost david rosowski the prime mover of the stem initiative within the uvm administration And rosowski went on to call it a strategic imperative for the university So you see what i'm talking about there This is the largest investment in uvm history It's going to a tiny percentage of uvm majors But the reason they're doing that and in the same article they point out that what they wanted to do was Try to grow those majors by 50 percent If they did that then we'd be talking about 18 percent of graduates, but again, that's a speculation But that's a pattern too Where science or technology or medicine are concerned Very small numbers of majors or graduates or Insufficient revenues to cover operating expenses are all forgiven by the upper administration And i'll give you one very dramatic example of this And this is from a seven days article published recently And the analysis was actually performed by joe kudrell a senior lecturer in the math department And he analyzed uvm's financials and found out that Over the last five years the college of arts and sciences contributed 88 million to the 200 million dollar pool And received only 54 million in return So in other words arts and sciences Has 34 million dollars taken away from it and then is declared to be in budget structural deficit And this again from the article by contrast larner college of medicine Which generated slightly more than five million in undergraduate revenue took in 67 million So they were the recipients over five years of 62 million dollars more than they took in Now my dean in the college of arts and sciences is a wonderful guy He's a very intelligent guy But in every article you will read about this situation He says things that don't make sense And to me that's an example of someone who is being uncomfortably Managed from above and and I apologize to bill if he doesn't agree with that, but That's what it seems like to me Dean falls acknowledges in that same article that the college of arts and sciences receives Contributes more than it receives but What he says about that completely ironically is that UVM needs this budget model because it allows it to support different priorities at different times And he goes on to say Well, I guess someone could decide that the college of arts and sciences Don't need to make any changes and we're just going to take money away from the rubenstein school of environment and natural resources But they've got about their balance their budget and that would mean they have to make cuts but The point as I see it is their logic is that Departments should be cut according to their ability to produce revenue But instead what we're seeing are what I call cheshire cat cuts Where even though we're generating tens of millions more than we get We are declared arts and sciences that is to be in structural deficit And then people in order to make up for that are being cut They're not being cut at the larner college. They're not being cut at the rubenstein school They're being cut in the area of the university where we're making tens of millions now You can call that governance by whim if you want to be unkind or by strategy if you want to be kind But no matter what you call it what we're saying is that the management at the top has decided on an outcome That's not based on the dollars really It's based on preference in the strategic direction that they've selected So in effect what we're doing now is cutting areas of the college that make money And then we're using those proceeds to try to grow disciplines that only might make money Now that's what you might call a rule of the dice And that's exactly what bill falls described it to us in a department meeting we had with Now I I won't go on much longer, but I I want to funnel this down to what that means What it means is that you remember I said that during the spires of excellence days Uh, we were frozen in terms of hiring and our resources were Inhibited Now we're at the point where arts and sciences is being told We're going to be cut and we're going to be cut year after year And what that translates into I work with a guy named, um, Jamie Williamson Yeah Jamie has, um Well more than three decades In university He was four years from retirement And his contract came up for renewal During the pandemic and he was let go the month before Christmas by the administration and when he tried to plead with them or Negotiate with them They said this is purely a financial matter Now I would suggest to you that that's Absolutely Up as down ism It is not a financial matter that Jamie Williamson was cut His classes are always full And the division in which he sits or the department in which he sits Generates money as does the college So the university has decided to subsidize other programs At the expense of our college With the impact on people like Jamie Williamson And and the last thing I'll say there is that Jamie teaches subjects that are understood by the university to be Absolutely necessary among other things he teaches Native American literature No one else we have is qualified Um, Robert could you uh, could you mute there you go? um So no one else is qualified to teach Native American literature So we're losing Something that's key to our race and ethnicity requirements. We're losing a valued colleague four years from retirement And the savings are non-existent because Jamie's courses are all full The only way that you can Get to possible savings Would be to say that by cutting people whose courses are full We would then drive students toward courses. They don't want to take in other words courses that are not already full So with that said, um, I will finish by um Repeating something I said at the beginning. These are my observations as someone who works in the College of Arts and Sciences um I believe that what I said is accurate based on The facts of the last 12 or even 20 years But Where I sit in the state senate is not to try to drive Decisions based on this But rather to go at it more objectively And to think about the needs of the university as a whole So among other things, we're now considering a 98 million dollar request from the university in terms of pandemic response uh, the legislature was Very quick to fund uvm and the state colleges needs last time out as well as independent colleges We will be equally quick this time around Um, and that money is forthcoming no matter what the strategies Um under discussion tonight Um, but I'm delighted to have the opportunity and thank you For providing it to be able to get this off my chest um Our division our department our college has been under siege And colleagues of mine have been under siege in addition to jamie williamson. I just want to mention nancy welch uh, my colleague who was Called into a mandatory meeting with To protest her activism on this subject Wow Something I regard as completely and utterly covered by free speech and academic freedom Um, so with that said i'm i'm happy to um, I know megan had some comments she wanted to make right and people may have questions So i'll leave it there Okay, megan, where are you megan? I'm right here sandy Well, I just wanted to say that it's it's hard to follow up and add more to what senator baruth has said he's covered it very well um, I think something that I might bring in is that um The sciences that are being invested in Are applied more than the basic And I think it's important to draw this the distinction Because basic sciences have a very different approach. They they ask very different questions when they're doing their research You know asking a question Based on a problem. So if we were to think about you know Going to to you know, have more nuclear power plants, right? What would the impact of an increased number of nuclear power plants be? Right on our planet with regard to just, you know getting rid of the waste and and you know all the different aspects of That very complex problem or the benefits With regard to less carbon dioxide being emitted into our atmosphere and and it would be a much more open broad kind of investigation Whereas applied science is is often tied to grants offered by industry Sometimes the federal government as is basic science But the the industry grants have many more strings attached and I think that the key Term is something I saw on an article that a former alum sent to me And he's now working in europe For an incredible firm. I believe it's in the netherlands Looking for for solutions to to these environmental issues that we're going to have to Seriously work on very quickly here Was solutions based Solutions based research right where you don't Investigate problems you seek solutions when it is driven by industry and that's a very different process Right and that is a way for industry To guide research away from problems that they don't want to have light shed on Right, so when we see the fossil fuel industry You know fueling research You can be sure Right that they're going to steer that research because of the dollars that are attached To to those initiatives away from the problems That that might you know, issue Come out of out of these industries You know, and this is a very old problem. This is nothing new. We saw it with the tobacco industry Right. I mean, this is nothing new. So we have to be very very careful now there are ways for faculty senates to you know, be provided overview and and Be given, you know, some kind of direct oversight of that that process and determining whether or not The research projects are are That they serve Right, they serve the common good that they are not simply driven for the selfish Interests of the industry However, we don't have those safeguards in place at the University of Vermont And that's something I learned from from colleagues that the at least they're not robust in them And and so it's something that we have to be very mindful of and and another thing with regard to science I have a student who's a double major. I'm a professor in the romance languages and cultures department. I teach french He's a double major in french and in physics All right Get that think about how bright this young man is I would say probably two of the most difficult areas foreign language and physics and I I feel for him and this entire semester He has seemed down And I learned Perhaps why I learned last week That one of five remaining faculty in our physics department Has taken a job At oklahoma that she was And she are one woman physicist and can count them probably on two hands If you look through this country Was recruited away from uvm and why is that? Just like major jackson and others. I'm sure are receiving calls because our administration broadcast loud and wide We're cutting the arts and sciences because it is a failing college, right? Irrephrasing but that is the message That came out loud and clearly. It's a false message. I want to make that very clear And and senator beruth has made that clear. We are bringing in much more money than we cost to the university and so I You know learned about The fact that her name is madalina furis And she is a wonderful colleague a very active faculty member and an award-winning physicist And I brought that fact into my remarks that I made at the press conference That the the group uvm united against the cuts and nancy welches in that group As is peter spitzform. I'm looking at at the names here probably more people and And I think students listened To that press conference. I saw him in class tuesday And all of a sudden It was like I have been heard because he is probably Sensing that His investment right of these students spend a lot of money to get a college education and and His investment he he is also, you know, someone who thought he was going to be studying in europe this year COVID hit those plans went out. He's looked for a university where he could study physics and french Right over overseas. So you can just imagine what this is for this young man, right 20 years old So bright so promising and to see, you know, not only his his plans to go abroad and to study abroad You know, he's just slip away And never come back because of course, kovat has lasted a lot longer than the three months initially Initially estimated But that his program He just he sees it slipping away. And so when he came in a class on tuesday, I could just see in his eyes He looked at me And he was he had that light again in his eyes like You have heard me you have heard what is happening to me And he had never been talkative in the entire semester and he was just bubbling on tuesday Bubbling and I think that that's something that Whoever's listening in and who will listen in and who will be submitting perhaps letters to seven days to to refute What senator beruthan and perhaps I and others will say They have to pay attention that this is having a direct impact on our students Because when they see their faculty Being whisked away They see their plans. They see Um, the quality of their diplomas Wist away And I I just I can't stress it enough. So of course physics is a problem-based science right and Garamella wants us to be a Carnegie Carnegie research one Institution well, how can you do that without physics? How can you do that without geology? And their master's program that they say well, let's do a let's do a phd and very interesting paul bierman My colleague in geology our colleague in geology He says they don't seem to understand that the master's degree is the terminal degree in geology So we see these administrators being paid big bucks who don't even understand Anything that is most basic To what kinds of questions should go into a restructuring plan or a vision for being a research one institution Another story paul shared with me and and i'll share it. I think that he doesn't mind um, you know these cuts were just announced out of the blue And The director of the national science foundation and woods whole massachusetts Called up our vice president of research and said What is going on? What are you doing to geology? This is the model program for the country The model country Model program for the country And the vp said We're cutting geology I didn't even know What kind of planning? Um, none I definitely don't have My nose works Better than anyone else's evidently. I hear you barbara. I hear you barbara and your granddaughter probably. Oh, sorry that's okay and It it's It's something that the public needs to know These people are making a piece hundreds of thousands of dollars Hundreds of thousands of dollars To steer our institution to a better place I'm a french professor. I never thought I'd make the hundreds of thousands of dollars and I don't right If I get to a hundred thousand dollars at the end of my career, uh, you know That that might happen. We'll see we'll see if my program is still here um so And how can I be more aware of these issues? It's because I'm close to these issues And I thought that was a really interesting question That was raised during the press conference and that julie roberts who's here. She responded and she I would hope you call on her sandy um question about having a co-op kind of organization For our university of vermont Meaning that there is no You know top administration hierarchy Exactly that it is the faculty Who are leading the institution and this kind of institution exists? I think it's in montana, right? um And I met someone it it works very well There are there are no genes There's no president Right there. It is the faculty Who is leading right and it's uh It's something for us to consider because this is a small state and you know, we as I've heard People say and in all kinds of industries. We punch above our weight, right? I like to say we're the little engine that could the state is amazing for what we do right well, yeah Um, I I just wanted to say Megan that that model of a co-op is something that I would love to see I would love to see an organization of institute And that's why I'm frankly doing these kinds of things these zoom meetings. I would love to see higher ed cooperatives That's what that's how burlington college actually started 105 years ago probably and of course that collapsed But it collapsed also because of overspending By the administration Overspending buying all that land. That's why it collapsed It was a sustainable model But anyway, I do there's a lot of questions Beth But um, and I wonder Beth if you can get into the chat because I don't really know how to do that But you suggested also Megan that somebody Somebody that you knew you wanted to question have that person question julie julie roberts Of united academics. Yep. She just turned on you. Yes. Yeah. Thank you Yeah, I've been sitting here trying to figure out what I could possibly add to what my two colleagues have already said Because they did a wonderful job The what I would like to add I think is that one thing that united academics would like to see And it's it's a baby step to get to what Megan was talking about in terms of a cooperative Governance model, but we would like to see faculty members and staff members on the board of trustees You would think that that little suggestion Was a bombshell? I mean it is just so Unpopular with the present board and with the The administration who feel I mean, I don't think it's too strong to say that the The people who run the university should not exactly be fraternizing with the people who are employed by the university even though The president does sit on the board of trustees as an ex officio member So I think I mean I think there's going to be a lot of resistance, which is fine. We've been working against Resistance for a while now, and I think we are making headway as even evidence by the fact that you asked Senator baruth here today to speak about what's going on At uvm. So and I thank you for doing that Part of this struggle here. I think it's just to get the word out because people I don't people just don't believe What's going on there? And it's I mean they we've touched on a few things another piece, and I'll say try to say it very quickly is a huge reorganization of the university That's been proposed that's besides, you know in addition to What we've already talked about in terms of closing down apartment departments and programs this reorganization is Is one that if it goes through will be Well, at least in the beginning it was completely administratively led There was no faculty input whatsoever There are now a couple of working groups that have a couple of faculty members on them Because the protest was so huge against this first the first go-round And so now there are a few faculty members on a couple of the working groups But still the whole thing is being done in secret They are not putting out information about what's going on about what this reorganization might mean um It is I think if I had to characterize the our administration in one You know in a single phrase or word It would be completely unilateral They're an uncollaborative And uncommunicative I think I think senator bruce is right that um Enrique Cordero will come out with um a commentary, but that's as close as you'll get to any communication from the administration So Well, but that communication to citizens really has to happen all of this all of what you're saying has to be Communicated to citizens because the citizens of this state are really interested in uvm and want to keep it A real university. Okay. Anyway, I think Beth could there are questions you want to mostly a lot of it is is um Megan and Nancy So are there other questions that didn't get answered there's the last one I think from janet What's the status of the bill in the legislature regarding the faculty and staff representation on the board? Janet is I janet. Is that janet wattley talking about no, it's another janet Okay, janet and Yep, I can answer that if uh, okay. Yeah Okay So, uh, you know The world seems divided in Into pre pandemic and post pandemic or wherever we are now But if you remember back before the pandemic um We were doing pretty much business as usual in the legislature Among the other bills that came to me then when I was chairing senate education was a bill to um To reshape the board of trustees around gender parody So it's wildly Uh overly represented by by men At this point Whereas the board of trustees for the state colleges is right at parody between men and women So we started working on that as it moved through the senate it changed. We added a racial diversity component um, and the idea was that the university needed to Develop a plan and they would have to report results every year when they came for their budget discussions And we passed it out of the senate It went over to the house and then covet hit about a week later And we all moved out of the state house and have never moved back yet So that and every other bill that we sent to the house died Um, but I have been talking with julie and others about um reanimating that bill And seeing if there isn't a way to address the um The representation of faculty and staff as well Problem being I no longer chair that committee and I don't sit on it so um I can't you know, it's a much more indirect process for me to try to to move it now, but um, But I think uh, it Probably can't be done this year because we've already gone past our crossover deadline but um a bill could go in in january and then uh, you know See if we can get it forward from that hey Other questions or comments Nancy you have another question you want to ask? um Yes, I have two quick comments and then a question So one comment is I put in the chat the link to the uh, no confidence in the leadership of president garramella petition And I encourage people to sign it or will read it and then if you are inclined sign it share it broadly uh I also wanted to note that while the college of arts and sciences Is being hardest hit right now in this um austerity restructuring Other colleges are also um under pressure so the college of education and social services dean announced the cancellation of the early childhood special education made here despite a critical shortage of of um special educators in vermont and nationwide And also in the college of agriculture and life sciences, um Uh plant and soil science. I believe it is um was threatened with cancellation because of low enrollments in their two majors of agro acola agro ecology And sustainable landscape horticulture And so they're trying to save themselves by combining those two majors into one major agro ecology and Landscaping and with that change from sustainable landscape horticulture to Landscaping you see that kind of move at uvm towards only wanting to value What is like immediately applied um turning us into a you know a job training and tech Institute, um, so so I just wanted to signal that but I also wanted to ask phillip Uh, what it is that we can do to really And motivate our legislative trustees To rock this vote historically the legislative trustees have told us that they feel like they have a back seat to the corporate self perpetuating trustees That they don't really have a voice But they're also responding to people writing to them by saying well, we trust the administration So how do we reach our legislative trustees and how do we get them to act? um, you know and to and to educate themselves about um, you know about what is Completely manufactured With the budget deficit what uvm's resources really are and how they're being drained out of education For the you know for future um Vermont students Well A couple of things So first of all the we we just had an election and elected three new trustees legislative trustees and I spoke with all of the candidates and I supported people who um, I discussed this situation with them and people who said that they would take a You know appointed and questioning air into these discussions um, so the the new people I I think are Aware of it and I'm hoping that they will be as good as their word and um and ask the right questions The other thing I would say is that over the years I have found the legislative trustees to be the only ones that contact Um and get a response from The others tend to be out of state um For all for a long time when there was a a scandal going on at uvm that I was very concerned about I tried to contact all the trustees and found out that they had Uh, uh, a single email address That they encouraged you to use and that that went into a box that was never checked um So they they changed that as a result of my my insistence But with that said, I think the legislative trustees are the most responsive Of any that you'll that you'll get Um, so to nancy's real question, which is what can you do? I have tried for years To convince the legislative trustees To make use of minority reports so the way it tends to work is Packages come out of the finance committee All of the major decisions are made in the finance committee. Then they come out to the trustees. There's a kind of uh, I would say ethic of collegiality slash group think Where you should go along you should be a supportive trustee because we're all in this together and what I would like to see Is one or more trustees develop a tradition of a minority report Where they point out uh that they did not vote for x package And these are the reasons why and make that a transparent part of what the trustees need to report so The way it stands now, we get a sort of single sanitized version of the deliberations of the board because everybody Sort of folds their opinions under the majority opinion But if you've ever sat on any kind of study committee legislative committee blue ribbon panel You know that it's not uncommon At the end for there to be a report and a minority report And I think that would begin process of the majority Needing to work and negotiate with the minority on the board and again if we if we can change up the Primarily white male composition Uh of the board. I think that will help in terms of This sort of reapportioning of where the where the voice lies Robert any uh, you were asking questions. Robert. Did you and it's you said you got your answer Did you did you want to say anything else? from Robert bristo He's muted best so I I can unmute I I asked two questions on the um on the uh chat I didn't I just thought that maybe people could look at them and maybe Respond, I mean it seems to me I I came from a another state that is as small as vermont and population Yet we had two flagship campuses. There was north dakota state university in fargo and university of north dakota and grand forks And both of them were as big as uvm um I don't know how they sustained the schools financially uh with a 600 000 population state, but um I I just don't understand how uvm seems to be so autonomous when it's a public school Well, does anybody have an answer to that? Is it truly a public school? It isn't it more Like a private school than most public universities or not. Does anybody have an answer to that? It is a land grant university with a public mission um That got muddied substantially when they created the uvm foundation To do the fundraising And when was that that was following the uh great recession? So in 2008 in 2008. Is that right? I I can't give you a direct year, but it it would be maybe 2011 But but it was um among other things to allow them not to disclose donors Wow to the uh university and um You know that that really to my mind muddies the waters in terms of a public mission Right because because it always comes back to money Um, and if you have any sort of undisclosed money, it's As far as i'm concerned, it's a cancer in the system Right, right. Who else has something another question? If I could add and answer a question that's in the chat I mean there is the matter of how much funding um uvm gets from the state of vermont, which is fairly small And I think that has to do if not with the fact of how much control the legislature has With the attitude about how much the led control the legislature should have I also just wanted to say in response to something in the chat about comparing vsc and uvm in terms of our issues That I wanted to assure people that at least at the union level We are cooperating Very much with the vsc and in fact the bill that we had um introduced about adding trust um faculty faculty and staff trustees Came originally from a very similar vsc bill and they gave us permission to use their language and craft A bill like that for uvm. So we do have a lot of Collaboration there between the two units and I know senator baruth has also done a lot of work with both so By vsc you mean the vermont state colleges, right? That's correct. Yeah sand Yeah And julie isn't uvm an instrumentality of the state? Uh, I don't know good to see you tim. I don't know if that's the precise term an instrumentality of the state would be more under the direct control Right, but I believe that uvm is Well, the wording that comes to mind. I don't know from where but uh, I remember when john jewitt was dean. He said we have to become more private We're an instrumentality of the state well Maybe maybe could I address that tim a little bit? I I had a legal case against the university when the board of trustees once Facing enormous protest closed the door on those protesters and wouldn't let anyone in And I actually we sued about that I with the other attorneys We sued them and at that and the decision was that it was an instrumentality of the state Therefore it was subject to the sunshine laws and that it had to be open to the people who were trying to protest You know, but basically that was a hundred years ago, but I think it is really an really interesting question That has never been rescinded or reworded Well, I think I think senator bruce is saying that it has been sort of right senator bruce Well, I I I would have to look in title 16 and see what the exact Relationship is I I know that we have oversight power In terms of the budget that goes to uvm and I know that we Have a long history of overseeing the university and writing policy In which it it is to function My question is just whether an instrumentality I think of more something like a school district Um, yeah, but uh, but It's whatever the semantic term is Um, the state has a certain amount of control but not not obviously direct control And then the uvm foundation was created. We lost a lot of ability As did you all to look at their finances Correct Megan did you want to jump in on this? Okay Yeah, I I think that we should not underestimate the influence of the governor and our congressmen and senators in decisions that are made in You know top level discussions Uh, how how so Megan? What do you mean? Well, I I think that the fact that they are often invited to commencement Uh is is simply You know an indicator That they you know our governor regularly speaks at commencement. Um, I graduated I got my graduate degrees from a state university in Ohio The governor didn't come to my graduation And I I know that senator lehi has you know played a real role in Uh, you know various initiatives And so I think that it's important for For us to reach out to them And to express our concerns Um, I know that I know that I'm sorry Has has anybody done that we reached out to senators lehi and sanders and congressman welch and the governor Yes, yeah Um, generally speaking the I can tell you they respond from the senators and the congressmen's office is that It's interesting to hear about it, but it's not really in their purview, but I still want to second what um What megan said I think that state legislators present company absolutely accepted because Senator bruce is here and is obviously working on these issues Have advocated a lot of their power And they you know, they tend to invite the administration and their lobbyists in And pretty much not ask questions. I mean I've watched I've spent a lot of time on zoom this year observing committee meetings And observing the testimony that president garramella gives at these meetings And mostly people are just thrilled to have him there And I'm not saying that they should be throwing him out But I think they should be asking questions And that's why I think any all letters to legislators are welcome because they need to know You know a that they can ask questions and be enough backgrounds so that they can ask Learning questions Anyone else have any thoughts Hope for reasons. Yeah. Yeah, just the other comment, you know another question. Why make the cutoff at five majors? Let's just think about that for a while, you know special education as opposed to k through 12, right? Is it a surprise that there are fewer graduates in special education than k through 12? Honestly Does that mean that special education is not important? So when we think about how many physicists we have working Right for our national science foundations Do they compare to to the number of engineers working and computer engineers working on Building out, you know, Facebook and Instagram and all of these fabulous things that we're all working on now No, but does that mean that they're not important? Of course not And so this this arbitrary number of five Is ridiculous It's it goes against any sense that anyone in in the academy should should have We are to fill in the cracks, aren't we? And and that those crack filling those that can you know, I like to call it canary in the mine I mean, that's what we do. We prepare not only those basic science But also the humanities specialists who we're going to point to This is a problem that people aren't paying attention to right our attention's over here at the next flashy thing Because it's making a lot of money, but this is a problem And and this could lead to to real, you know Something very very Devastating right to think about the the amount of carbon dioxide in our atmosphere I'll just go back to the environment. So when we think about the number of majors, I want us to ask that question Is that a reasonable question to ask? The second thing I wanted to say and I raised this also in my remarks on Monday I've also spoken to people In the education and social sciences as well as in the Rubenstein school We're now because of our budget model where students wherever they are seated In front of whichever faculty member that faculty member is in the college of arts and sciences those revenue The revenue dollars from tuition Sciences right there's an algorithm for it if that student is in front of a professor who's in the Rubenstein school Revenue dollars go to Rubenstein, right? So That's our budget. That's our budget model. Just boil down to simple basic facts But what it does is it prevents cross college collaborations. I think they are I think if you could mute that would be great Jerry could you I just need you to sign this And Sorry Hello everybody The problem here is that We're currently in the process right the deans and the faculty of Rubenstein the dean And the faculty of the college of arts and sciences They are working to separate these programs that have developed that are you know Collaborative programs between the college of arts and sciences and Rubenstein so that Students studying the environment in the college of arts and sciences would never take a class Counting towards their degree in environmental studies in Rubenstein. Now. Does that make any sense? No None of this makes any sense especially especially if the humanities are kind of the cash cow I honestly I don't get it and I don't I guess I really What what can we do as citizens anything? Yeah, I think you can do a lot. I think I think a lot of you are Graduates of UVM. I think that you need to speak to your alma mater. You need to tell them You know, we knew UVM as a different kind of place. You write to the board of trustees You write to the deans You write to the president I you really need to communicate and I do I do think that they are paying attention because you know, phil I just got a receipt for I don't know. I've sent like six letters to the board of trustees I finally got a receipt about, you know, March 12th, March 15th, March 17th all the way up to March 29th because our department sent a letter into the board declaring, you know, that we did not approve of what was going on and quite in some detail and I said, oh, there's a letter missing from January When our department submitted a letter Defending the value of Italian studies, which was also one of those programs Are you talking about Italian? Italian studies the country that gave us the Renaissance Italian studies. Okay, so This they're paying attention I think and this is the moment for all of you who care and especially alums To let your alma mater know What you think about this? I think it's really important and anybody who cares Even if UVM is not your alma mater, you have contributed to the society You know the value of the humanities, you know the value of the basic sciences You know the value of cross-college collaboration You know this because you've had to work in teams. You've had to think through problems You've had to ask yourself ethical questions. We have to do that in our daily lives constantly, especially during COVID You know the value So we need to teach That's how I see it. We need to educate the trustees who live out of state. Most of them who most of them are not academics We need to educate them About the importance of this institution for Vermonters and the importance of all the things that are at stake here So I think there's a lot of there's a lot of questions in chat. Beth. Are you following that? They're not questions. They're comments and I think that all of the people who are commenting are you know may want to you know Listen to what Megan's saying about these issues that You know the problems with physics the problems with Different things being on the chopping block. There is one question that I wanted to make sure we got in which was Robin wanted to know about the relationship of sandia labs What's their The role of sandia labs at uvm. Does anybody have the answer to that? I don't I don't know not me Okay, they're Go ahead robin the reason I am asking the question was I was reading somewhere that a new vice president Or something who is a friend of the president? She comes from sandia labs and you know, that's a nuclear Organization Outwest but now it's but now it's here and I just wondered what they were doing Okay, anyone else? I don't know if anybody knows about that robin. I'm sorry to say we should obviously as citizens True we should know about stuff like that and anyone else We're approaching seven o'clock. This is obviously I believe a really really important discussion. I don't know how to Even think about what citizens should do. I mean, I agree with you, Megan We should be trying to educate the trustees. Frankly, I bet you is I would bet it's pretty hopeless But I would say that there should be some kind of a citizens group even that would be more like pressuring Uh them not to pressuring the board of trustees not to make these cuts to humanity especially to the humanities It's the only part of the university that attracts people. I or it's the main attraction of any university I I don't know what I don't know what to do as a citizen. It's very concerning to me I'm not an alum at UBM, but I'm an alum of a state university. I went to UMass and Amherst And I know what those state universities mean to people You know, they transforms people's lives What are we going to do as citizens? Well, I make Performance mission and how are we going to know? I mean Nancy welts just wrote a comment about Things that are happening moving part of arts and sciences, I guess into geography and natural resources And how will the public be able to know? Right those things are as they're happening I don't know except that except for You know, I've known about it because I know Megan and I know Senator bruce a little bit and I so I follow What they say I follow the issues of the newspaper. I just don't know what to do about it as a citizen I guess I'm asking that question It seems to me You know, that's not enough the only thing I think would be enough is if there was some strong Citizens group that would say this is unacceptable and we're not really willing to pay our taxes for this anymore Something like that. What are the students saying? Yeah, and the students. Yeah, what are the students saying anybody have a comment about that? Sure. Yeah, Megan. Yeah, they've been they've been vocal. Of course now we're in midterm Time and they're tired. I mean these are students who have been, you know in confinement wearing masks Right. Yeah dealing with all the stresses that we have been dealing and yet they have a full course load, right? Um, trying to of course Build their future. So I think they're tired and I think they rightly so need to focus on on their studies right now That's the message we've gotten there are several students who have worked with the faculty and uvm united against the cuts They've been fabulous. They've written commentary for our local journalism It's they're they've been fabulous speakers at press conferences and in our teaching And so they they show exactly who those leaders are that are hopefully going to take us out of the messes that we're in currently Um, I think you're right sandy. I think there needs to be an organization I think it needs to to really think, you know, problem-solve How are we going to Get over the barrier, right that exists between the university decision makers And the public because this is a public good. We are teaching to Vermonters. Many of these Vermonters Do not have a lot of money. They cannot afford middlebury. They can't go to to UMass Amherst, right? This is their chance to get that quality education Can any any final questions or I think maybe we should do this again fairly soon if that's all right with people What about bar barbara maguru is saying what? I mean, I think there has to be a I think we need I think we need more organizing on this. Um, yeah, and more more discussion. Look look at the turnout. It's great Yeah, thank you any other final I would just say I had to leave for an important phone call for a while So I don't know what was said, but I was an organizer for the national education association and public schools in higher ed In the 70s and 80s and 90s and this was starting to happen even then with the overuse of adjuncts The rise of a managerial class where the you know, the tail is wagging the dog here and um Someday I'm going to write not just about this but the issues that that progressives have in burlington with With the mayor with the f 35 with this. I don't think we're organizing properly. I don't think we're We're analyzing I don't think we're hard-nosed enough About analyzing power who can make the decision to change the situation and how do you get to that person of those people? It seems to me it's the government because this is a state owned It's a land grant university and ultimately it's going to be lying in Montpelier To seize control of this in my opinion Well, you know as an organizer I would say do we know who the major donors are and the ones who are humanities majors I can't believe you can't get a list of donors to the foundation if that's not public then that becomes the issue I mean, I just don't think we're tough enough. I mean we do. Yeah, I agree I have an idea The right things and this is true with the mayor and his basis and we we do petitions and demonstrations and demands And with the f 35 too, we don't you know, we don't know who it is that makes the decisions and how they're gotten to You know, sort of straight power organizing and So that's those are my two cents Megan had something to say Yes, yes, there are financial records that are available online because we are a public institution And the uvm united is looking for someone who could do some accounting. That is something That would be very helpful to what do you mean accounting examination of those records and coming up with Specifically they talk about the budget that there's a budget shortfall, right? But that doesn't mean that when you look at the financial accounts and i'm putting them here in the chat There's the link to them when you look at the financial accounts and see the statements meaning the audit the final audit Is there truly a deficit at the end of the year? That's the question Not did we make as much money as we thought we would make this year, right? Because those kinds of questions They don't tell us very much as opposed to How much is left over at the end of the year, right? And and so you can you can spin a narrative when you're talking about how much you would like to make As opposed to are we truly in the hole? Yeah So if there's an accountant here in the room I I can I probably know some There you go. What I would suggest is perhaps if everybody's agreeable Maybe we should meet like this in another month or so and figure out what we as citizens can do I don't know what what does everybody think? Barbara's saying yes. I mean should I try to set something like that up is my question What do you think Megan? Oh, I This problem is not going to go away away quickly. We have to keep at it. We have to keep about you senator bruce. What do you think? I think it's a great idea All right, so I will try to do that if best will set it up, right best sex In the meantime, uh, I can't thank you all enough for talking about it to me This is an ultimate huge question for young people especially. I mean we cannot desert our young people This the way that I think has happened particularly during the pandemic we have to think about The future that they Have to think about more than I do I mean, but we certainly have to create some kind of a future that they can look forward to it seems to me And the university is so crucial to that So I can't thank you enough for your being here tonight and I will try to arrange something In the immediate future if people want Andy, I want to thank you for arranging this forum And and sticking with it week after week. I'm you know more interested in some topics than others, but Um, it's really a tremendous public service The next week by the way what we're doing is we're going to have the attorney general tj donovan speaking about the fourth amendment to the constitution that's the amendment which guarantees against uh illegal searches And seizures of your property and your body by the way So it's kind of critical issue right now. Okay, robin. Did you want to say something? I just wanted to say that we'll be sending you. Uh, I guess beth will be doing this sending you the link to Watch this on cctv So when you get that send that to your friends and you're because I think there's a lot of people who Should have been on this call and aren't and could be very useful for when we do the second time And I just wanted to thank philip for doing it. Thank you philip and megan both Place of presentation of the situation at uvm philip. So thank you. Thanks. I'm good to see you also julie Also, just want to let people know all of these these uh wednesday night talks There's a link to them We record them all and there's a link to them You can watch them on cctv a few times But there's a link on the vicci website, which is just the icii.org to everything that we've recorded And it's pretty easy to find under events. So So good luck megan. Good Phil and everybody else and good luck to us trying to I guess change the university. I guess Thanks for having me. Thank you. Thank you sandy. Thank you You soon. I hope