 about 15 minutes for questions and what I'd like to do is take three questions first and then throw them to the panelists and then we'll see whether we have time left and there's another time during the day where we can talk further. Yes, and please introduce yourself. The second presentation, I just came back from South Africa too and sadly I was disappointed by just how segregated it still is, even in cities, but I was very much encouraged by your presentation. I wanted to ask several questions. One, the enumeration system, is that similar to the slum dwellers international enumeration? What's the same? Second, one of the things I heard about when I was there was you have buffer zones, but people still settle on that. So who's monitoring that to make sure that those buffer zones stay safe, unsettled. And third, so in some ways you are dealing with the easier situation of city-owned land. And what I was hearing in other places is the real tough nut is informal settlements on private land, you know, in municipalities. So then the electricity company really feels like they can't provide electrical services because that is starting to recognize those settlements and you know, and clearly there is a private owner. So what do you do in those situations? Okay, thank you very much. Great. We have another question over on this side. My name is Geep Fefferman and I'm an economist. I run the Global Business School Network. So I wanted to ask an economist's question. You've worked for many years and this is a kind of very complex multifaceted social engineering program. What are the resources that you put into this? It looks to me of hand, I would guess that a lot of money has gone into this per person and how do you assess the benefits at the end? Susana Lasterria from the University of Wisconsin. My question is, that relates to gender and rights to land. In both of these projects, it sounds like the Ebenhouser, I'm not sure if that's the name is correct, Ebenhouser Project. With the communal land title, I'm assuming that everyone in the association becomes one of the owners, corporate owners of the communal land. But then, and that I think does include women because everybody over 18 is a member of the association, is that correct? Okay. With the individual land titles, are those legal land titles or are those certificates that are handed out by the CPA? If they are either way, I'm just wondering whose names are on those titles. Are women's names also included in the titles? Regarding the townships in Cape Town, outside of Cape Town, again when you are handing out the occupancy certificates or the residential certificates, are whose names, what is the criteria for putting names as occupants or users or owners on those and I assume those are not legal titles. Those are just within the community itself, recognized within the community itself. And then related to both of those, I'm just wondering what are both the norms and the rules for inheritance rights and do those include daughters and wives? Thank you. Thanks. So you have a full agenda here. David, do you want to begin? Okay. I think the last one was related to me in particular and yes, the community as a whole owns the whole land. Men definitely dominate in the rights to the arable plots, but it's not only men that own those or that have the rights to those plots. In the custom, the current landholder can decide who that land goes to and many of those situations have been where the woman, a daughter, a wife takes over that land and then becomes the land rights holder. It's up to now it's been restricted to the 153 primarily because of a restriction on water. There's hopefully an upgrade of the dam and there will probably be additional water that comes into play. And then any expansion there, there's a particular focus within the community saying that must be particularly for women. I think it's a recognition that in the past that woman within the custom have not actually been advantaged in access to land. You asked whether the title is a legal one or not. At this point it's not. That's why we're also involved in a national intervention to try and get communal rights and or continuum of rights to be recognized and recorded at different levels. So at the moment it's not. At the moment in fact we're still implementing this thing. So the rights that are held are very insecure, some of whom don't have a certificate with the local municipality. So this is the anticipated system that will be implemented once the land is actually transferred to the community. In terms of I think inheritance I explained it. It's really in custom. Most often men receive the rights and that currently it would be the right to communal grazing and to the arable plot. But it's not it's not unusual for women to also do that. But most of it mostly men do receive that in the inheritance. What we found out in Monabisi Park is that it was about 46.5% of the household head was a woman. And so what we particularly did was worked out set of criteria with the community of what they thought was the household head. And in a lot of cases you had couples coming together as well. A lot of women who are not necessarily married. So what we also allowed was a secondary name on the list. So there was there was always allowance for somebody else. So one so the household head and then another. What we also did there was also we made sure that the tenants were also on the community list as well. So I was amazed at that percentage in South Africa. I think for that amount of women to be considered the household head I was blown away. I really was. And very important as well for what it was. But it also shows the urban context and how people migrate and move around between urban centers. In terms of the inheritance aspect we have an ongoing community register. So it allows for people to come and register deaths and births and life basically. But the problem that we hit was the the tennis advocates are not necessarily updated by the city of Cape Town. So then the local not necessarily administrative recognition but the local recognition has a gap for the long term use of it. There was never intention that it would last so long in terms of that we could get quicker legal recognition plus administrative recognition but we still stuck on local recognition. But we do realize that there is a need for that ongoing inheritance or maintenance. It's like a broken tap. You got to when it breaks you got to fix it just like a register. You got to keep it updated. Very important. I'm going back to the first question from Claire. Do we use a similar enumeration system to slum dwellers. I think we did but I mean enumerations are they kind of you know quite standard. But what we did was really try and understand what it meant at the beginning. What is the status quo. So we did a lot of the work on the ground trying to understand whether it was whether it was what the community wanted was this enumeration system. So yes a similar process was followed but I think what we what we're making sure is it's continuous because a lot of enumerations people come in from the outside they do the enumeration and then it goes. But we wanted to make sure was there was some kind of continuity and activity to it. And community ownership is all run by volunteers. The community register office is run by volunteers. They've been trained up in geolocating and mapping and there are wizards on the computer now they have all our community facilities have Wi-Fi access so it can be live data that's fed straight to the municipality on correct systems at the same systems municipality in reality. Buffer zone so who monitors we had a land invasion in 2014 before the elections in South Africa by one of the political parties but the people who came to forefront was the local leadership. And they blew us away. They literally because people wanted to burn down the register office and so kind of normal community dynamics but to its almost extreme and the the the safe note area committee snack. They sort of stood there and hold hands and stop people and there are there are very few kind of in migrations but there's a lot of internal growth is what we find. So you can't stop internal growth. A husband a brother somebody comes from the Eastern Cape and settles in Cape Town and that's not as you know it's normal. So but ongoing monitoring is very important. What about privately owned land. I didn't have the opportunity to present our area but we are working in another area called Lotus Park that is a very different environment on Prasa land. So the local rail organization but they're there they're a subsidiary company. They're not government. So we do have that problem where we have one and a half thousand households on land that is not state. We're going through a different process with them. But it still is one that one can deal with incrementally as well. That one's been a three year land transfer in the process. The land transfer part the legal part doesn't necessarily take that long. The negotiations to give everybody around the table is the difficult part. Just to the economic part the feasibility of all of this. I personally can't put an amount to improving somebody's quality of life. I find that that is insurmountable. I can't. The amount of value we have I think is quite minimal. Our staff members on the ground. We have one local community facilitator on the ground and we have various people who technical staff as well as ground staff who we're employing from the local community. So I feel that there is a little bit of feedback. We have a little construction team doing the public space who live in Monobissey Park. So they're all getting training and skills development through the process. I think partnerships is a big thing. So we don't we don't work alone. We work in partnership. So that's very important. We work with our early childhood development is done in a partnership. So that network that we spoke about at the beginning that that for me is what we need to do. And we need to be innovative. We have to deal with these areas. The idea was to set up the pilot and see how we can roll it out to other areas. So the sustainability of it also means how can we ingrain learnings and teachings beyond just what we are doing and with the city of Cape Town as well. So this for me is an important platform to actually share the information and get further continuity of the project as well. Thank you very much. I think there's one on the same issue. Yeah, just on the economics one. You know, if you consider that 13 percent of South Africa's land is in form in former homeland and 8 percent of the land has now been transferred through land reform. So we're talking the order of 20 percent of South Africa's land, which is either under utilized or unutilized completely. I don't know if people that have been to South Africa, if you've driven through the former homelands in many areas, people are not cultivating anymore. And that's primarily because of land administration breakdown, because they can't trust that someone else's goats aren't they going to come in and eat their their cabbages. So people stop producing. So the value of doing this and it's going to cost a lot because there are many communities involved and there are many land rights that are not clear enough. But the value of doing it means that it's going to make a major shift in the economy in bringing those areas of land under production. At Ebenezer itself, many of the portions of land are not utilized, partially because of the lack of land right, but partially because of the ineffectual canal system. But there again, there's a proposed new canal system being implemented at the moment with and that with an ability to go to a bank and say, here's my certificate for my land right is going to make a major difference to the person's decision to intervene to invest in their land. So I think, you know, that is going to be the positive spin on the quite large amount of money that's going to have to be spent on implementing this across the country. Thank you very much. I think we are at the end of this session. And so I want to thank the two of you. And then after this, there's coffee in the back room and we'll read some hope in 15 minutes. But thank you very, very much. And people have more questions for you.