 and move on to the next panel discussion on content and advocacy age of influencers communities. So on this note, what I'm going to do is invite on stage our session moderator and our panelist as well. Our session chair person in fact is a music director, singer and also having YouTube subscribers of more than 200,000 and over 100 million views for the content that he has created. I am a alumnus and his digital music content company song fest creates music videos, content and IPs for brands. So I'm going to invite on stage our session moderator, we have with us Gaurav Dagaankar who is a co-founder and CEO song fest, which is a music content company to please come on the stage. If I may please invite Gaurav to please come forward. You know, we need to have like a musical round of applause. They were talking about song fest, can we all just come together, smile together and have a round of cheer there. Well, hi Gaurav, how are you doing? I'm going to quickly invite your panelists as well on the stage. I'm going to invite first up we have with us Debo Smita Majumdar who is the head marketing with Puma India. So if I may please invite Debo Smita to please come on the stage as well. Now we need to sprint across with a round of applause there because she is the head marketing with Puma India. So then on that note, let me also invite Lakshmi Balasubramanyan who is director with Green Room to please come forward. And may I also invite Ajay Mehta whose vice president content with Mindshare India. Ladies and gentlemen, we just had an energetic dose of yummy lunch. Where is the energy? It's not a graveyard session. It's a superb session here. Bring that energy back in the air. And with that, let's jam together over here with this wonderful panel discussion on content and advocacy. So with that, Gaurav, over to you. All right. So a few days back, this batchmate of mine gave me a call. He's been a consultant with a very large international consulting firm. And he sounded really sad over the phone. So he said, you know, I came in the wrong profession. Instead of being a consultant, I should have been an influencer. So I asked him why. So apparently there was a newspaper article that day which said that there was this leading PUBG player who was getting paid six to eight thousand rupees by every fan of his just for highlighting a comment while he's playing a game. So he was really sad. So it's true, ladies and gentlemen, we're living in a world of influencers where people from all walks of life, young and old, who are creating content on a regular basis across genres have managed to create a great fan following of their own, where not just brands, but also clearly fans and common people are now paying them for advocating their content. So I have with me representatives from the brand world who have used these influencers and who've created some great content. We had a couple of influencers who unfortunately couldn't make it. I think Nikunj and Kalyan were stuck in the reins, but we'll try to make up for them. So they were, I'll start with you. I've been a big fan of the song, Sweet Gully, that Puma did a few years back. And this was in 2017 when you all did a song with Divine and Prabhdeep. And this was way before, say, a Gully boy. So that point of time, say Street Rap or Hip Hop was not that popular in India. So how did Puma as a brand decide that this is the route we want to take? These are the influencers we want to use. How challenging was it to find the influencers in that space? So for Puma, we stand for Street. Like while we are a sportswear, our brand ethos, it's based on sports. But we're also about lifestyle, we're also about Street. So it was a global campaign that we wanted to adapt to the Indian market, which spoke about the street, the legends of street and the hustlers of street. So when you think of street in New York, you think of the Bronx, right? But if you really have to bring out streets in India, you have to be a little bit more authentic to the whole idea of it. So we said, what does Indian street stand for? And that's when we started doing a little bit of deep diving thinking. And we realized hip hop really is representative of streets. And this is not English hip hop, but regional hip hop that is really sort of out there in the market and people are consuming it, living it. And there are lots of bright talents that's doing a lot of great work there. Okay, so I'll just interrupt you here. Was this based on some sort of, somebody brought this up in the company saying, guys, this is picking up or was this based on some digital, some research that came up? And how did you choose the guys that you're actually? So it was actually a research that was done internally because we knew what the brand needed to communicate through that campaign and what we had to say. So we wanted to create first of a kind multilingual track. So that was the whole idea because we said to represent street and to represent the streets of India, which is quite wide, what do we need to do? So we went to Khasi blood from Shillong to Prabdeep in Punjab and of course Devine was there to putting it together and then we had Madurai guys from Chennai. So it was quite a eclectic mix of artists from different parts of the country bringing it together. And it was an understanding of that area within. It's not that we engage with any external agency to do a research because hip hop is very much a part of Puma globally, we've always stood for hip hop. Like the culture of outside of basketball court, the culture of J Cole, Jay-Z, these are the artists that we typically work with. So we knew we wanted to be in that, but in terms of identifying the artist, it's really somebody who could live the brand and who could create music, which was very true to what this stood for and how would it all come together? Okay, so one quick question on that. Before I come to you Ajay because you all have recently done a hip hop track with Ayushman and Nezhi, right? Is that how did the song pan out for you all? Because there was a discussion in the morning where brands are spending a lot of money roping in singers or roping in various influencers and there seems to be no real metric where, you know, kya nikalta is an important question. So for Puma, what exactly, how did you all measure the success? Also another question that since you took that route, have you all stuck to the same tonality across your choice of influencers on Instagram or is treats still what you guys are doing or have you all moved on to other things as well? To answer your first question, which is how did we arrive on the track? So we were actually celebrating 50 years of Swede. Swede is one of our most heritage product and we wanted to create something unique. So if you know that it was called Swede Gali, that was the, so we gave certain direction to the artist saying what it needs to stand for and we needed a hook line which there was a connect back to the product. And then we had a music director who sort of put this all together and we created a song which all of us. What I wanted to ask was in terms of metrics. The metrics, yeah, did it result in some sort of a spike in sales or what, how did you, how do you tie this to the success? Ultimately, what is the KPI on that front? There are two things. Sometimes we do awareness campaigns and sometimes we do conversion campaign. So this typically was not some, the creation of that track was an awareness campaign of creating a certain talkability around what is this that Poma is doing. The first time that we've created a track which is multilingual and what it stands for and giving a platform to all the artists. So typically the KPI was the engagement and the organic talkability that would generate. And of course there was the other part of the campaign which all marketers have to do is the conversion story. So we might have used part of the content that we've created and crafted it differently to meet that KPI. So it was, it was both if you ask me and we planned it differently and there was a complete rollout depending on what we go out to the market with. Ajay, I'll come to you. You all have done innumerable number of digital campaigns, particularly with influencers. I remember a couple of ones that really stood out for me were the Bruck on the six pack band campaign that was done. And also the one that you all did with Amir Sohail and Venkatesh Prasad, if I'm not mistaken. So when you all build a campaign, is there some sort of a discussion you want to start off with your audience? Is there a community that you all want to build? How do you go about choosing your influencers? It all depends, actually. I mean, if you look at coming off of what she said, it's a great inspiration. I mean, the kind of stuff they've done before Gully Boys came in. They went to Cannes as well. So it's not only that six pack band, even they were there. But my thing is that you look at the brand, look at the philosophy of the brand. So in case of red label, obviously to talk about breaking barriers. We know a lot of resolve happens over a cup of tea. So we said, why not actually bring in two yesteryear arrivals, which is Amir Sohail and Venkatesh Prasad. And I'm sure people have seen what happened in the World Cup in 96. So we felt that getting them together, having a cup of tea, resolving all their issues in a nice, sweet, warm way, which actually is the same space for the brand, made a lot of sense. And it came live on television. So it was a very different way, non-digital sort of a thing that we did. In case of six pack, obviously the same brand, it's Brookmont. But there we didn't need to get influences on board. We had YRF partnering us. So with them, obviously the whole bandwagon comes forward. But because the cause was so strong and it was transgenders and then this year we have six autistic kids, a lot of the celebrities, TV stars, digital influencers, RJs all stepped forward to support us. That's really organic in that sense. And I think it's because of the idea and the cause and a lot. A lot of the credit goes to YRF for that. But to give it to the brand, I think they've spent a lot of money behind it. And today it's one of the top most pieces that Red Label has done. With a lot of brands, maybe the larger ones who've got a great digital marketing research team, perhaps they're well aware of the kind of influencers who suit their TG. But do you find it challenging with certain other brands to convince them that why don't we use this guy? He's got a great following in this particular local market because the tendency would be, let's take a good star who's very famous and popular. So do you all face that challenge and how do you deal with it? So I think it depends. A lot of the agencies, I'm sure even Lakshmi will agree, when you reach out to them and say that we need to drop a plan for a particular category, like beauty. So obviously the first thing that comes to your mind is beauty bloggers, right? Or even home chefs or generally chefs for the food category. But there is no, there is science behind it. I mean, there is an understanding of what kind of people will be relevant for your brand and category. But at times you'll be surprised that it's not necessarily the beauty bloggers that will talk about a vastly, it could be a biker community. Because they are sports persons. So I think there is science behind it. If you ask me 50% or 60% of the time we rely on experts like them to guide us. But broadly the brand and we know the kind of people we want to feature who are going to be the advocates for the brand at the end of it. Okay, so Lakshmi, you sit between the influencers and the brands, right? You are the expert when it comes to perhaps suggesting a brand, what kind of influencers to go for. Have you ever seen a brand who perhaps wants to go directly to an influencer and what is it that an influencer marketing agency really brings to the table? Because a lot of people wonder that how do you all decide the cost? Is it cost per post? Or how is it that you all tie up and influencer with a certain brand? So could you throw some light on what is it that an influencer marketing agency really these days brings to the table? So when we kind of started off with one of the earlier agencies. So influencer marketing earlier was largely about seeding in content. Like we were discussing how do you make the content wider? But in the last year or so it's largely about content creation. So like I said, it's a little bit of both math is quantitative as well as qualitative. So the quantitative bit is the following, the reach, the engagement. Largely depends on the kind of goals that a brand wants. Is it brand awareness or is it driving conversions, installs? So we do a lot of things. So having worked with multiple brands, we advise the kind of platform, the kind of content, the kind of people that brand needs to go through. We also design campaigns, strategy, ideas, all of it. We use tools, we have our own in-house tool, which we use to kind of plan the campaigns as well, whether it's reaching the right market, right audience. So in that sense, we kind of put the whole thing together, whether it's a people, what we need to do, what platform, what are the numbers you can expect. Therefore, why this cost is justified. A lot of times we work on cost per view, cost per engagement kind of plans. So it's typical of a media plan wherein we kind of put an influencer plan together and ensure it's executed. A lot of times brands do want to kind of reach out, but a large brand wouldn't have the bandwidth or the time or energy to kind of do that. Also, unsurability, brand safety, these are kind of things that become a concern for the brand, which is where a lot of agencies play a role in ensuring that the whole campaign. Just to add to that, actually, see, if you look at last three, four years when influencer marketing has actually picked up and now it's become a very integral part of all the media mixes that we put in because all the plans have a leg of influencer marketing. It's not like you have traditional print, TV, radio, digital plans, but you have an influencer plans sticking out and it could be the one that actually starts the campaign. Like she said that is there a viral code for an influencer to start for you? Like, can you make the particular peace trend overnight and then take it off? But to come back to what you were asking that the tradition has been that you pay them as cost per post, it's not linked to performance. But that's something which is happening now. We're seeing a shift in terms of can it be performance based, which means that if she draws up a plan for a particular brand, there's going to be guaranteed reach or engagement attached to it. Because I'm putting so much money behind it, there's no exclusivity. So, at least on YouTube, there's always the skepticism that people buy a lot of views, you see brands that have put up a video, it has some 20, 30 million views in just about 700 comments, which is, you know, you sort of know that a lot of views are perhaps bulked up. So even if you're expecting a certain number of, say, a certain reach, is there, you know, let's say an influencer has charged you 5 lakh or 10 lakh, is there a doubt that a brand has, is it authentic or has he or she just bought views? Because I'm sure a lot of people do believe that sometimes on certain platforms, people use artificial means. So are there seeds of doubt like that in a brand's mind? Yeah, of course. I mean, when you hear plans or influencers saying, I'll get you a random, a million views, we know that it's not true, right? I mean, there are ways to buy views like you said, and you've been on the platform as well. So I'm saying that that doubt and that scare is always there. You know, what's the authenticity? Who's the guy? Also from a brand standpoint, if you want to have a long-term relation with a particular style of, say, artists or influencers, you need to be sure that they are, you know, authentic and credible in that. And which is where they play a big role, you know? So which is where there are kind of tools also, you know, wherein you can figure out the followers, whether they're fake followers, whether they're bots. If you know that a lot of followers are inactive for a long time, and there are algorithms that can be built to kind of, you know, crack all of this. And YouTube, all of these platforms are making it more and more difficult to buy, so it's almost impossible to boost a YouTube post without doing it, you know, organically. So all of these platforms also kind of keep regulating their rules to make it more difficult. They've, you know, we'd have Twitter at some point, we'd have all of the people from about 500k drop to 50k overnight. So that happens a lot too. So every, I mean, from all points of view, people are kind of fixing this problem of fake followers and bots and all of that. They were Smitha, when you work with an influencer, you know, typically there's some content that influencer's going to create irrespective of whether brand comes on board or not. Do you prefer, you know, integrating yourself seamlessly into such content or do you, as a company, does Puma prefer commissioning a certain large piece of content? Like for example, I know that a company like a TVF, they're creating a lot of stuff and brands like to just seamlessly integrate. So what is your strategy? What's your take on commissioning versus just subtly integrating? So for us, we've done both. It really depending on the need of the campaign. So I could give you certain examples. In 2016, we had launched our biggest women's campaign called Do You. So Do You was all about, you know, what women stood for, being unapologetic about who they are and the core strength that they have. And it was a global launch. So when globally it was launched, it was a lot about irreverence, okay, making those choices which probably with India it wasn't sitting. So we had to reinterpret this whole space a little differently. So we said it'll be about strength, etc. So while we created content which was a brand heavy content with our ambassadors that time we were working with Lisa Hayden, we were working with Jacqueline. So we created content which was ours, which basically captured the whole idea of Do You and what it stands for. But as we broke down the campaign, we said, okay, everyone's talking about their own freedom and their own acceptability of who they are and celebration of it. If you have to do a physical manifestation of core strength, what would be the best thing to do? So we said it would be planking. So our eventual leg of the campaign was creating a Guinness Book of World Records with most number of women coming together to plank. So it started off with a brand campaign where we did shoot content which was brand heavy but we got influences on board to do the plank to post images or videos of them planking at different paths, wherever they are. So it was one campaign which had both legs and it made sense because I didn't want them to create the kind of content we have as a brand created with our ambassadors because they may not be able to put it together in the same way. But at the same time, they would very well integrate with the campaign because it was all about all the women coming together. So we created a mnemonic, so to speak, which was of strength, planking and we used them to spread that and take that as in a large space. Okay, so you're saying it's a hero hub hygiene kind of a thing where the hero content drives the rest of the stuff that you feel is a good thing. But again, that would be in one case, but if you look at Swayed Gully, it was an entirely content that was created by our influencers. So we got influencers who specialized in music and they came together to create that piece which the brand owned. So there is no one way of doing it, depending on the need of the campaign, what is the outcome you're looking at and finally, what do you want to communicate to your end consumer? You take a call, but I think both work for us at time to time. All right. My next question is for all three of you that when you use a large celebrity and there's maybe a brand endorsement happening, you see that the celebrity is unique to that particular brand. You don't see a Virat Kohli advertising a rival brand, right? But on digital, if you see the Instagram profiles of certain influencers, where is the brand loyalty? Some people, in fact, certain profiles have unlimited brands. Every second post you see is that of a brand endorsement. So as advertisers, as marketers, how do you deal with that? And is that a factor for you when you decide, Ajay? Yeah, I mean, if you're going to put money behind a brand or behind an influencer for a brand, obviously you don't want him to lift another phone or another product the next day. So we try and work it around in the contracts with these guys and with agencies because you can have a cooling off period. You can't block them. I'm sure if you ask the kind of category that they function in, you want those guys to keep putting content out there. And like she said, you need them to create content, most of just seed content. So you need these guys. You can't block them completely. But if you look at the entire ecosystem of influencers, while you have celebrities, you have the digital influencers, some of these guys have become in digital celebrities. So be unique. Nekunj is not anymore a person who's just creating content or seeding content. We've used him for acts with Ayushman and Nehzi. So he's big enough in his own domain. So you can have arrangements with them, but you can't block them completely. That's a business called a brand would take. Yeah, also, I mean, a lot of the oppo viewers of the world. So the mobile category largely works on a cooling off period. So a lot of time we have to make sure that they don't, as part of the contract like we mentioned, we include that you cannot work with a competitive brand for another six months. You also pay a premium for it because that's opportunity loss for the influencer. So that's how we kind of manage it. And for a lot of brands like fashion beauty, it honestly does not make a lot of difference because I could be wearing Mac today and tomorrow I could be using L'Oreal. It truly does not matter too much to the brand because it's, you know, all of it looks good and all of it works. Every day I wear a different outfit. Every day I use different, you know, looks. So it largely depends on the genre. So food and fashion, it truly does not matter. Where is some like tech, you know, mobiles, these kind of things, or even mobile, you know, service operators. A lot of these things matter. And we work it out in the contract where they get exclusive for a brand for six months. For a certain time period. Okay. Okay. I think for our category, it just needs to be defined differently because we look at influencers separately and we look at sneakerheads separately. While sneakerheads can be considered as influencers, but they also represent a community. And sometimes it's being part of that community becomes very critical to the brand. And somebody is representing a community and the authenticity comes from the understanding of that category, the new things that are happening and how involved they are. So for us, we actually divide it into ambassador, sneakerheads and influencers. And each play a very different role in taking the brand message forward. All right. Lakshmi, I have a question for you. Do you think influencer marketing? This is a very honest question. Do you think it is a fad? Do you think that ultimately, you know, there is some big bubble that's being built? Like on TikTok, you see people having 10 million, 20 million followers. A few, a couple of years ago, anybody with 1 million or 2 million Instagram followers is considered big. Now that number looks really small in front of the TikTok, you know, influence. And a lot of TikTok influencers seem to be really common, you know, boys and girls creating videos in their building or compound. You know, so do you think it is a fad? And since we do not have a couple of influencers on this panel, I'll ask a question on the behalf of the influencer community. Is this still a viable career option as a lot of people, a lot of youngsters genuinely want to become influencers these days? What do you have to say about that? So it didn't really start off as these people wanting to make careers out of it, right? So most of these are fashion and food and even tech for that matter. A lot of them were passionate about what they were doing. They liked it, they were interested. Most of the food people are, you know, homemakers who love cooking. Nisha Madhulika, so she's a homemaker who just love cooking and, you know, she's probably the highest viewed food channel in the country. So a lot of these people say a couple of years back started off making good content and that's about it. Good content that appealed to a certain audience. So that's where it kind of started and eventually over a couple of years it's become a career option for a lot of people. Nikunj was not here. He started off just putting out content that he liked, you know, and it took off and he built a fan base. So honestly, I mean, on an everyday basis we meet brands and people from other agencies who says, oh my God, she's charging 40K for a post. I'm going to become an influencer. I hear that every single day, I'm sure people in my team say that too, right? Because they're people like us and that's also what is kind of nice about influencer marketing is it's people like us who are making the content, making it more organic, more relatable. And I mean, honestly, a lot of us can try putting out content, it is hard work. You know, a lot of effort is going, you have to kind of get the pulse of your audience. You can't really fake it too much because you lose out on your audience. You know, you actually get hate comments. A lot of people in some regions, regional content, on YouTube you can't really make an overtly brand video. They actually come back and tell us we get a lot of hate, you know, you're sold out. You know, this is sponsored stuff you don't want to work with. So a lot of them are very, very conscious about not losing out their audience, being loyal to their audience, which is what this is, you know, honestly. A part of your work also involves advising them on what kind of content to put out. A lot of it, we advise actually both sides. We advise the influencers a lot of times because they're again used to, they started off, you know, just making regular content. We have to make sure that it's brand friendly. There's a certain quality of content. So we advise them, the influencers, we also advise the brands, you know, as to how to go about it because a lot of them knew our brands and all of them were just getting into influencer. They know they want to do influencer campaigns. They don't really know what to do with them. So a lot of times it's also about using it the right way because they're putting in a lot of money. So yeah, so we advise both ends of the party. I'll bring a different angle to this. A lot of this influencer activity clearly seems to be tech-based, not in terms of what they do, but in terms of the platform they choose. Earlier, let's say Facebook was really popular and then came Snapchat and Instagram, now it's TikTok, right? YouTube was also really big and now it seems like people would rather make TikTok videos. So how much do you guys study, which is gonna be the next trending platform? Ajay, I would also like to ask you, are there any safety concerns sometimes with regards to certain platforms, which as brands and brand custodians, you would keep in mind when you work with influencers or certain platforms? So I think if you ask which platform per se, brands are spending, I think it's across. It's not like YouTube, we're not spending money on Instagram. Of course, Instagram seems to be the place in terms of all kinds of content, video, static, whatever, stories. But if you look at the new age platform, especially TikTok, I mean that's where the world is moving right now. Brand safety, I mean there are issues at times, which obviously they are trying to clean up, but brands are majorly doing or spending money on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, larger chunk. I mean, from at least the kind of brands I'm working with, TikTok has yet to arrive in that sense from a brand standpoint, they have their own set of the Salman doubles and all those guys who are doing crazy stuff on TikTok, but brands are being slightly more varied in terms of seeing where they are moving, what kind of content they have, and then they'll decide. So the platform also depends on your brand goal. So a lot of fashion, food, Instagram works really well, travel, Instagram works really well. YouTube is used extensively for installs, app downloads. It's extremely effective for all kinds of conversion plans. So TikTok is again, a largely brand review. You want something to catch on. Right now the trend is a challenge. So where you kind of also play it safe, you don't really do too much of branding exercise per se, it's to kind of make things viral. Right now TikTok is working. So these things keep changing every six months almost. There might be new platforms coming up. And we kind of just, Facebook is largely now used only for tier two, tier three kind of audience. Likewise YouTube as well. So a lot of regional content is where one uses YouTube. So it's dependent on where the brand wants to be and what they want to do, the kind of campaigns. Since you mentioned trend, do you think that this brings a risk of a bit of a herd mentality or a bit of a erosion of the expertise? So called experts are no longer experts because so many people are doing the same thing. And a lot of what these influencers do is based on what they see other people doing which has worked for them. At least from the music perspective, I can say that because covers or recreations worked for a while, you see everybody, we are working with a brand. They want recreations instead of originals even though they're paying a huge sum of money for the licensing. Simply because they know this song is safe, everybody knows. So do you think there's a bit of a herd mentality there was Mitha? Like let's say hip hop or street rap becomes big. Suddenly you see everybody jumping into that bandwagon. See, I don't want to, yeah, so I don't, because see we've not typically done that because like you said, we tried to do something new but I'm sure the environment influences, right? Because every time a marketer wants to take a risk but wants to take a calculated risk and end of the day because you are spending money, you want to know where this could lead. And if there is an example out there and if you are able to, there is, you would want to take something out of it but whether to term it as herd mentality, I probably wouldn't go that far. But of course the whole environment is for you to learn and to pick the ones that will work for you and drop the ones that don't work for you looking at what's happening out there. She's being modest and she's saying that. I said you're being modest and saying that because Piuma actually did the first piece one and a half year back. Which one? The Swede Ballet. Two years. 2017, yeah, October. Yeah, but it's also riding the wave, right? Like she said herd mentality might be a little harsh there. But you might as well, I mean as a brand, you might as well ride the wave while it lasts. So if say challenges work, I mean do the challenges if unboxing works. Do it as long as it works. So there's, you know. I think there's genres as well. Like in music, we've done a lot of singles with T-Series. Yeah, of course influences are part of that larger play but you know old tracks are remixed and they're working. So then you tend to, obviously even clients are aware that's working for them so why not try it? So I don't think it's about herd but hip hop in particular has been, I mean it's been picked up and now it's gone overboard. Badra Somni kids who are doing that. This is a Ganpati song released two days back by Ranveer's music label, you know. So there's a market out there. It lasts as long as it works. And I think content, typically there's something called a trend, right? Like for example, you saw a trend of illustration which came in Instagram. You saw a lot of people doing that illustration and then you learn from it, it works. Then you see animation going to next level where it's like more 3D animation that's working. So you pick that up and you see what makes a difference is maybe there is trend that is catching up which a brand isn't using and it's there somewhere out there. Can you be the first brand to see that, pick it up and use it for the brand? I think that is where the change lies between taking what's really going to pick up in the market, being the first to catch it and use it for the brand before others do. So you're catching a trend but it's not out there. So I think trend is one there are formats available. You've spoken word, like, you know, they've got these poetry, you know. Open mind, it sounds good. All those, I mean, they're new formats that a brand wants to latch on in. And you can tell compelling stories, right? Brands like Dove and, you know, the other brands like even Red Label, you can really write well for them. Then you have faces, yeah, you have a Kunal Kamrao doing his own number, you know. So... Yeah, it's just storytelling in different ways. So, you know, every few months there's a new format, there's a new trend that catches on. With the time period becoming shorter and shorter and the attention span reducing. Do we have time for some audience questions? I think there's anybody who'd like to ask a question to the panel. Anyone out there who'd like to ask something to the panel? Okay. I'm guessing there's no real doubt in anybody's mind. All right then, I think that wraps it up for this particular panel. Ajay, any parting words on where you see influencer marketing heading? I think it's here to stay. I mean, next three years at least, we're still trying and testing, like I said, multiple kinds of formats and, you know, platforms. I see an increase in spends from a digital standpoint moving into influencer. It depends how brands will actually use them to their advantage, you know, whether they latch on to them for a longer period, shorter period. So for me, it's a three-year window. Let's see what happens after that. Yeah, I kind of agree on the time period. I believe it's in the starting phase. We've just probably a second year of, it's surging. Right now, it's in a growth phase. I believe we'll see this growth for about three years and then it'll stabilize and, you know, and then we'll see. After it stabilizes, it'll get a little more organized. Right now, it's growing crazy. If people are doubling their spends, tripling their spends and the market's exploding, it'll take a while before it kind of settles down and stabilizes. That's not happening. There's been how much do you all spend on? This is something. You can ask as many times as you like. Ultimately, there have to be some figures discussed on this particular side. I doubt that. But I do believe that the whole influencer thing is here to stay. And I think micro-influencer is going to be the next wave. That's going to come and to use them for commerce. I think that's started, but how deep you can go and how integrated it can be in your overall marketing spend and what is the more specific KPIs that you can attach to the whole influencer leg will really determine how much more brands will spend on influencers. I think I echo your thoughts and I think it's just going to become all the more important. From an influencer's point of view, how specialized they can get and what niche they can target. So I think influencer marketing is here to stay. I think we all are on the same page. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. I'm going to quickly check. Aren't there any questions? We've had some wonderful sessions since morning. Are there no questions at all? Because if so, then maybe I'll ask a question. We still have room for questions, that's why. All right. Okay, my question, of course, because we're talking about influencers, there's this common question that comes to your mind is if everyone is being an influencer, who is being influenced? Who actually is being influenced? How do you address this particular aspect of it? I think the country is large as ours. There's always scope and room for audience. So I don't think we're struggling there yet. And I think there are many people out there who are being influenced. I'll give you a few examples. There's a friend of mine who creates content. Her name is Prajakta Kohli. She goes by the name MostlySane. And it all started with her talking about issues that she was facing as a young woman. And because she was a little confused as to what content to put out there. And she was surprised when she started getting tons and tons of comments and messages from young girls who were saying they could relate to what she was writing about. I think recently Anushka Shankar shared a very touching post about the surgery she went through and why women don't talk about it because it's considered, why should I share my personal health issues with anybody? But if you see that thread and if you see the number of people who are applying to it, I think sometimes things like that give a lot of people a lot of strength. Nikunj, who couldn't be on this panel. He's from Dombivali and he's been advocating Dombivali at least to me for a very long time. I remember when Sunil Chhetri had put out that video urging people to come and watch the Indian football match. Nikunj had really shared that post. He got a lot of people, his fans to buy tickets and come. I think there are a lot of people out there who have a strong influence on youngsters across these platforms. We had put out a song on our channel called Tum Kupsurath Ho that the message was telling every woman that you're beautiful the way you are. You don't need to change anything. We got tons of messages from women telling how the song gave them a lot of strength. So I know that this word is so loosely used these days, influencer. And everyone says, Ab kisko influence kar rahe ho? But the truth is, as you've said, too many people out there who depend upon these celebrities and another friend of mine, there's a singer called Darshan Raawal, exerts a huge influence on youngsters. People actually follow, they wait for each post or each song from these influencers. So I think these days, the word content is also used very loosely. At least in the space of music, I truly feel we are all artists to begin with and have somehow become content creators. But neyya, riski demand hai. There are a lot of people who actually do get influenced very positively. That's wonderful. I'm gonna check, are there any questions? Yes, we do have a question here. We have another question coming there. That's the influence we're talking about actually over here. All right, here we go. Hi, my name is Arpita. And I have a question. So could you repeat your name again? Arpita. Yeah, it's a question a little related to what you already said. So what I wanted to understand is that, again, there are so many influencers, right? Everybody is trying to become an influencer. Many people are trying to become influencers. But as brands, or as people who are working for brands, what is that challenge that you're trying to, you know, get, you know, solve basically? That an influencer as closely related to a brand is that an aspect that you look at? Or do you try to connect anybody who's doing well in their field and connect them to your brand? I'm just trying to understand if I got the point. I think that's a great question. Yeah, so I mean it largely depends on what the brand wants to do. But it's mostly various things. So one, it could be to reach out to a larger diverse audience, right? If you pick one celebrity, let's say that particular person could exert influence on a certain geography, certain age group, you know? But if you pick, say, 10 influencers across different geography, all of which is your target market, you reach a larger diverse audience. You reach across age groups, probably you reach across geographies, whatever you want to kind of achieve as a brand. So the brand also looks at people that go with their brand. They also look at people who fit into their target age group, the kind of people who suit their product or whatever it is that they're trying to achieve through that particular campaign. So it's not a real black and white kind of an answer there, but it's largely dependent on the campaign. But there is a good level of science that goes into it in terms of matching the influencer to your targeted age group, audience group, geography, et cetera. So anybody else want to take that question? No, I think, see, I mean we all have options, right? You look at TV channels, you latch on to an art stock for a particular reason versus going to a republic. So there is data that states that and there's a lot of backend data that's available in the market with YouTube and other third party vendors which actually states that who are the guys who are talking in that particular domain? So if you're looking at a food influencer or a food category or a beauty category, you may find there's someone news popping up and actually getting great traction on their posts. So there is science, there is some sort of backend research that's there that we can look at. Also to state that we've done research in the past where if a brand puts out a post on their handle versus say Nikunj putting out a post on X, there's a huge amount of engagement that he draws, you know, and positive engagement. So then there's a sense that you get that this is the kind of people that you want to bring on as your team or as a bandwagon and use them in ongoing, you know, in terms of future as well. But we have tools and we have data to look at and choose the kind of people we want to. There's data that states that tomorrow there's a potential that someone like you can become an influencer. So we always on the watch out for that as well. I think there's someone there. Two more questions here. So we'll just make, I'll just hand it to the lady first. Hello, my name is Ankita and I would like to ask like how the at times there are controversies attached to these influencers and they by and large try to impact the brand as well. So how to deal, how the brand deals with these controversies which are negative and not positive. And then if there's a switch off the influencer, so it's like sudden switch off an influencer could impact the brand as well. So how to deal with these crisis which arrive. Ankita, you have any example in mind? Yeah, the revital case we all are aware that Uras Singh was campaigning it for a large number of couple of years. But then because of his, because of his what you can say the cancer thing which he underwent the brand had to switch the influencer. So like. So I would like to talk about this because Uras has been our brand ambassador for the longest time and we supported him through the entire journey because you know that's what you do because they stand for you and you stand for them. So and that's not really an influencer space. I think that it's two different ways. So when you get into a relationship of an ambassador and a brand it is a little bit more deeper. It's more exclusive. It's things that you do together and it's a far more long-term engagement and there are missions and visions that you decide together for the person and the brand together and what you've set out to achieve. And that falls in a different domain as opposed to influencer engagement. Influencers are typically more short-term and you pick your set of influencers depending on what is the campaign that you're doing, what is the output that you want. Are you seeking hype creation for a product launch because this product will appeal to a very niche audience and you want to talk only to that audience then you select a very select different set of people while if I'm talking about for the first time Virat Kohli's designing his first pair of sneakers which could appeal to all of India then the whole approach of deciding who should be the influencers to carry that message across would be a very different ballgame. So the engagement with all of this really varies so but if you're talking about letting go of influencers if they are caught in any kind of controversy, yes because we have not made any long-term commitment but if your brand ambassador is in trouble and depending on the situation you decide whether you see it through or whether you severe but typically as a brand we do work with ambassadors who we believe have shared the same values and ethos and typically touch would haven't been through a situation like that. Someone they want. My question is for Lakshmi, I'm Shanu. I wanted to know that a brand awareness is something that really works for influencers, right? Somebody who's got 100,000 followers, 200,000 followers you give them a product, they put up a post and it obviously reaches a lot of people and you get engagement. But does this really work in terms of conversions and return of investment and stuff like that? Would you have some insights on that? Yeah sure, so it depends on the genre. So it works extremely well like I mentioned for app installs, app downloads, for tech products. So YouTube as a platform works extremely well for all of these. So if you notice a lot of online gaming companies, you know the Dream 11 kind of companies, all of the gaming platforms and apps, new apps that come launch in the market in Indian market or around the world, use YouTube extensively for this because YouTube always has seen a lot of conversions in terms of the download, link, clicks, all of it. And off-layer even Instagram stories is something that's working extremely well for a lot of brands even in the fashion and food space. And a lot of social commerce, content commerce is coming up these days where a lot of this is led to ROI or a sale where up to the last mile they kind of get recorded and it offsets a whole lot of your marketing spends itself, social commerce and all of that. So while a lot of campaigns are brand awareness, a whole lot of almost 50% of them are towards conversions, sale and the works. So yeah, it does work for. Hi, my name is Alok and the question is for Lakshmi. Can you see me? Alok, could you? Yeah, there, yeah. So what it takes to be an influencer, maybe it's not apt for this audience, but as it was said that anyone is these days claiming to be an influencer. So how does one become an influencer? You just, it's just the number of followers. If you have thousand followers on your Instagram or you know, Instagram largely, you could become an influencer for an audience that there are thousand people are following you for a reason, you know, outside of your family and friends. So I mean, there might be a classification, you might fall under, but that could very well make you an influencer. So it really, it's just the number of following. We work with micro influencer, we work with what's called nano influencers. We just pretty much sample a product. You know, there's a new product launch, there's a shampoo or you know, a new packet of chips. So you work with 200, 500,000 influencers, sample the product across to all of them in each of them make a post. So you work with nano influencers. So there's no real definition if you've got a bunch of people following you for whatever content you're putting out, you're an influencer. So there's, you know, honestly, you very well- Why I'm asking is because you know, there are schools for journalism, there are schools for marketing. Is there a career prospecting, being an influencer? I mean, not yet. Amman is to write a book now. She's gonna write a book soon. I could just start a school too. What does it take to be an influencer? So not yet. I mean, like I just mentioned, where I think in the beginning of the, you know, whole influencer marketing surge in the country, give it a couple of years, they'll very well be schools for it. There could be, you know, books online courses. There could be influencers starting academies online. In fact, one of the platforms, a social commerce platform started online courses, you know, to train influencers to become better influencers, to create better content. So yeah, that's a market opportunity waiting. I'd also like to add to that. I think when somebody starts posting videos, whether it's on YouTube or Instagram or any other platform, mostly that person starts with zero followers, okay? And a lot of us, we have ideas. We think that, you know, if I put this out, there's a high chance people might like it. But it requires a certain amount of confidence to stick through with your desire to keep posting, even if people really interact with your content or not. And I would say, not just confidence, a bit of shamelessness also. Really, you need to put it out with that confidence I remember a friend of mine, Bhuvan Bam, he wanted to become a singer and he thought, why not make these small videos on my mobile phone? And the first few people who he said commented were his dad, his mom, and one of his cousins. That's where he started from. So there's no school that can teach you to do that. Ultimately, you know, if you want to put out content, you have to believe in yourself. There are people who don't know, who have not had any formal training in dancing or singing or cooking, who today are leading influencers in that field. You know, so there is a belief that you have to have that whatever I am putting out or my personality or something about me or my content is something that people will like. So, and to build on what Lakshmi said, I think apart from followers, the most impactful influencers also have a very good amount of engagement. You know, people really engage with them. Like if you see Meeve Bandai, people respond to his videos. There's something they want to say to him. You know, or if you see, you know, Melvin Lewis or people reply. So it's not just followers, but I would also think there's some amount of engagement with the content. All right, we'll take this as the last question. The side thing. Hi, my name is Shanty. I have a social media presence and it's really humble that, you know, you all mentioned that 1,000 followers is good enough to qualify as an influencer because, you know, though I have 25,000 on Instagram and 29,000 on Facebook, sometimes brands come back to me. WoW Detector is the name of my channel. So they come back to me saying that it's not WoW enough in terms of the numbers because I have some of my peers and colleagues from the industry who have invested in terms of money as well to buy the Blue Tech or whatever else is up on sale. And of course, you know, brands don't have the time to go back into the backend of what goes into being and staying as an influencer in this game. So how does one stay motivated is my question at this point of time. How does one stay motivated is what she's saying? Are you listed with Green Room by any chance as an influencer? That should be the starting point. Sure, I'll do that. Because I'm saying that, see, from a brand custodian standpoint, we obviously rely on them, right? And most of these guys are not exclusive. So even if Malini, you take her, she's listed with Green Room or with any other agency. Obviously, you start small, like he said, today of 1,000, you might need to go slightly more ahead in terms of the numbers. But there is an appetite from a brand standpoint from even 1,000 to 5,000 to a lakh, you know? Obviously, it differs in terms of if you have more following, she'll end up charging me or a client 1,000,000 versus for you, she might say, slightly lower. But I think the key lies in the kind of content you're putting out there. If it's, like he said, if it's engaging enough, I think brands will automatically ask for people like you to come in and be on the team. Yeah, and I'm sure, as with 25,000 followers, you might be approached for a lot of barter activities. There might be people sending in, depends again on the kind of content, whatever genre you've picked to make content on. There will be people getting in touch with you to put out stories or content about certain barter activities. They could send you a gift voucher. They could send you a package, yeah, which you could unbox and talk about reviews. So that's a good start. That's, I think, what a lot of influencers when they start off their career, so to say, as an influencer, do a lot of barter activities, do a lot of free cover events, cover a lot of these industry events for free, for barter, for passers and things like that. So that's a good start. And when brands know that you're making good content, you never know, one of the content you make could become viral one day. So it's just, if you're interested in whatever you're talking about, continue to make good content, really. Sure. And how important is it to be as popular in all the channels? Or is it one focus that you have, like Oni Instagram or Oni YouTube? So there's my academy. So I don't think, I mean, see, we don't look at it that way. Of course, we want someone to have following across, but you may not find that, right? A lot of publishers and like you see TTT, there will be tiny tales. They're not an influencer, but the kind of content they put out, they're fairly large on Facebook and Insta. They're not that big on YouTube. So it doesn't matter in that sense. But if I believe that you're the right person to actually seed something for me or create something for us, say for Lakme or any of these big brands, I don't see it as Insta, Facebook and YouTube. It could be only Insta, you know? Or it could be only Facebook for that matter. So, I mean, you pick your channel, you know? It depends on your interest, you know? Beyond a point, you can't force yourself to make content if you're not interested in it. Like, you know, we all discuss, most of these people started just putting out content they're interested in, they liked doing. So you should like, I mean, it might sound cliche in that sense, but you should like what content you're making and the genre you've chosen to, you know, make content on. And depending on so fashion or whatever it is that you've chosen to do, YouTube, Instagram, you just need to, you know, get the pulse of what's going on right now to figure maybe TikTok, whatever works for that particular content you're making is largely what platform. You shouldn't really force yourself to be on anything because you need to be there. Thank you so much. All right. That seems to a hell of a session. They're very, very interesting and engaging. Can we have a round of cheers to thank all of our panelists as well?