 It's now my very great pleasure to introduce this session on aid-effectiveness and gender equality from a partner perspective. I will be joined here this afternoon by Shirin Shemin Choudhury, the Speaker of the Parliament of Bangladesh. Kyo Sri Mutea, who is Director General of Social Development from the Ministry of Women's Affairs in Cambodia, and Ateer Inayatuli, former Minister of Women's Development, Population Planning, Social Welfare and Special Education, Member of Parliament, and the only women member on the National Security Council in Pakistan. We very much appreciate your willingness to join us today and participate in this exchange, in this debate on a crucially important dimension of development. It's actually sitting there at the very core. We've agreed that the three speakers will each address a question that I'm now going to pose from the podium, and then they will join, and then we will open up for a conversation. And what we would like to hear, the views of the three distinguished participants, is taking as a point of departure that you have all been championing gender equality in your countries for many years. You've been at the very core of these debates. You've made many contributions. Now, where do you see progress, and where do you see that much more needs to be done? We would like you to sort of reflect on these two connected questions, what has been achieved, and what more needs to be done. And I would like to call upon Sireen, if you would take the podium first and address this question, and then afterwards it would be Mutea and then Ateer. Welcome. And the word is yours. Good afternoon, everybody. It's been a great pleasure for me to be here this afternoon to share some of our views. And I would like to thank UN University and Wider for giving me this opportunity. And also thank Professor Fintar, who's moderating this session. Yes, the question that was posed, it is very important to have an idea about what is gender equality and how we look at it. If we look at gender equality, not as a goal in itself, but as an essential precondition of attaining sustainable, equitable and inclusive development, and based on that premise, how far what progress we have been able to achieve so far and what more needs to be done. There has been a great deal of progress, definitely, because gender equality is no longer viewed in isolation only as an issue for women empowerment, which is separated from all other areas. But it has come up as a very important and central theme, as was mentioned by Karen this morning about the instrumental aspect of gender equality and why it is so important for development. Women constitute almost half of the population of the world, 40% of the world's labour force, 43% of the agricultural labour force. But still we have to think that the vast majority of the world's poor are still women. Majority of 1.5 million people living on $1 a day are women. Women represent this disproportionate percentage of world's poor. So I feel that it is very important that we bring gender equality into a broader context and the shift that is already taking place. To take it forward in the sense that gender equality must be looked in a more comprehensive context. And when I say that, I mean that we need to take account and identify what are the inequalities, what are the discriminations. And if we are talking about eradication of poverty, if we are talking about ensuring equality, eliminating discrimination, ensuring food security and looking at post MDGs and sustainable development goals issues, then gender, what needs to be done is that gender equality must be brought to the centre of development agenda. Because the inequalities that exist, like the factors, what actually lead to them, must be identified. And why is it so important the correlation between aid effectiveness and gender equality? What is the nexus? Why are we talking about it? It is because the aid effectiveness should be seen in a broader framework to address the causes which perpetuate gender inequality. Like the discrimination, gender-based violence, female poverty, commonly known as feminisation of poverty, broadening the access of women to health, education and public services, participation at the decision-making level, which affect the lives of the women in a very fundamental way and also their representations in different domains, including the political domain. And these are the critical factors. So it definitely poses the question that the aid which is being given to the developing countries and are being received by them, how effectively is that aid being used or utilised or put to effect to address these concerns which are inbuilt and which are actually perpetuating gender inequality. The other way of looking at it is there has been a lot of discussion on economic growth. But economic growth does not essentially bring about the desired benefit or social outcomes. It may contribute to the process of poverty reduction. But if we are still talking about the issue of ensuring well-being, the right to a better life, then there needs to be more importance to social cohesion and to inclusiveness. So in that gender equality must be a self-standing goal and at the same time also it needs to be mainstreamed. So it has a two-pronged approach. And the final point is I feel that ensuring the effectiveness of aid, it must embrace the notion of addressing how far it is contributing to effectuate the required transformative changes in the existing unequal structure relations and framework that does not allow us to see gender equality the way we want to. So in order to bring about that transformative change, it is important to have gender equality at the forefront. And that is where we need to go. Thank you. Thank you for allowing us that gender equality needs to be seen in a broader context. Wutier? Good afternoon. Thank you, guest ladies and gentlemen. First let me thank to the UN University and wider to give support and opportunity for me to join this such an important one-day meeting. This is my first time in Denmark and my first time about its effectiveness with gender. Thank you. So I should start to talk that after a few years after I was born, maybe I was about five or six years old, I already aware that my country loves girls very much. They consider girls like a flower, smell very good, like a white cloth. But flower, just about a few days later, it's worn, so it won't remain anymore. And the white cloth, if something black or happened, it's very easy to be seen. So in 1993, after the Ministry of Women's Affairs established, we prefer to be not like a flower or white cloth. We want to be a precious germ because there is a statement says that men like gold. If gold everywhere still remain gold, so we want to remain like a precious germ. But we never forget gold. Gold and precious germ go very much, very well about the jewelry for all of us. So men and women should be together for the progress of the country, not just in the family. Now we are lucky that we have got a high commitment from a high level. If you talk about the rectangular strategy or the national strategy development plan, they recognize women as the backbone of the family. So gender equality is one of the agenda of the top government level. Then to the Ministry of Women's Affairs, we also work to ensure how the gender equality gets to the success. There is a mechanism for mainstream gender. Firstly, it's the Ministry of Women's Affairs, and then we have the Cambodian National Council for Women, who are working to ensure that women free from discrimination and to respond to the CEDAW Convention. And we also have the technical working group on gender, where the government, civil society and all donors are there. There is a platform to discuss, to talk about gender mainstreaming and to document it about where we are and what we want to go next. The Ministry of Women's Affairs, we have a strategic plan that we think that women should get high education, firstly, and then healthy, especially in the field of reproductive health, and have something in hand, income, like economic empowerment. So this is the main three points that get women more enhancing. And not only gender three, but women could have access to justice, like have legal protection, and also have a higher position in decision making, not only in the family, but also in the society. So this is the five main strategic areas that appear in the strategic plan of the Ministry of Women's Affairs. We also have a main program called gender mainstreaming, because we are not just working within the Ministry, but we also think about other countries surrounding us. And we have the cross-cutting issue where the effectiveness is there. So all of the components is the main point that bring women to be equal to men. So this is our achievement, that we have a mechanism. We have the platform to talk, to think, and to plan about how to get women access to equal with men. And for the technical working group on gender, not just in the very highest level, but we have also the we call gender mainstreaming action group in each of the Ministry. So they have their own gender mainstreaming action plan. So they plan about their ministries for gender mainstreaming. To be more effective, we also have plan to build the program-based approach that more transparency and more accountability between the host government and donor to sit there, to plan together, and everything is there, it's transparency. And we also have a sense that to ensure civil society have to be there, because they are one of the mechanisms to help the government to bring to the work we need. And we never forget about the root cause of gender inequality, it's gender norm. So far we talked about how many percentage of women free from violence, for example, but now we start to talk about, to learn about how men or women resist their gender norm and positively and have success. So we are in the process of doing this research, it's going to be published soon. So we want to know how to get out from the gender norm safely and positively. So this is my comment about the gender equality in Cambodia. Thank you. Thank you very much for pointing out that we do need to get our ambitions right, that we do need to make sure that we strive at being supporting the diamonds. Emma Edelman once said to me, diamonds are forever. I think that might also be one thing we might keep in mind. Atia, please. Good afternoon, distinguished participants. And very, very many thanks to UNWider for this very timely and much needed intervention in the whole issue of gender and gender development. Finn, I want to thank you for that question because it took me down memory lane. Like 35 years and we talk about Nairobi and then we had the UN Women's Development Decade which finished in 1985. And where are we today? We've made progress. We truly have. Because we are no longer talking about women in development. We are not talking about women and development. We are not talking about equality and equity. Bravo to all the women who have struggled to today bring on to the world agenda women's empowerment. That is what the 21st century woman is looking for. And that, Finn, is the progress. That's great progress. It truly is. We are no longer passive recipients. What do we want in women's empowerment? And we've heard it this morning. It was echoed in, I counted in nearly every single intervention. There was talk about we need in this 21st century, we are talking about entitlement and we are talking about women's agency. That is what empowerment is all about. And with that, can I urge that we couple the human rights agenda? Having said that, I would like to say that women are victims still. All over this big world in all continents of the world. So let's not forget it. But women are also and will be and can be agents of change. And that is what we are looking at. Now, how do we move on? Your next part of your question was that what do we need to do? For the donor community, which is so well represented here. And I want to thank you for your interest in coming so that we could have a dialogue amongst ourselves. To the donor community, I refer you to the post 2015 MDG goals and the development agenda. Let us remember that women have been very underrepresented in the process, which is currently taking place. And we let us also remember that ODA assistance, one of the important indicators is going to be this new development framework. So I would urge the donors to ensure that there is consensus on the centrality of gender in this new development framework. I would also sincerely hope, and we have talked a lot about it, twin tracking is the key word. We have to have standalone projects, but we also have to look at the macro development. And I go to what we heard this morning from Leon, that your aid is as good as the institutions within the developing countries that absorb it. So we need to look at the twin tracking aspect in the development goals. The third, but not least most important element that we must see in this framework is the transformative goals. Transformative gender, transformative targets must be put into this. And when I'm talking of transformative goals, I am looking for depth and I'm looking for goals that bring change. And these targets, transformative targets are of the essence. Moving on from there, I don't know, but can I respond to what I heard this morning in what should be done? I just want to very quickly say that this morning we heard and that there's orthodoxy, religious orthodoxy. There are righteous parties which are coming back into governments and that is of great concern to us women. And here is an appeal and here that if they are not if they have come into power, I would appeal to the donor community because you are our partners in development. When you please keep the gender issues, the human rights of women and all matters relating on that radar screen. Because I can assure you that developing country governments get great strength when the donors and your partners in development speak for us. So I would urge you and for the women advocates in each of our countries and we have enough of them now, I would request that this is considered by all donors in taking our agenda forward because the donor voice strengthens us in the developing countries. And I will just leave you with one other thought and that is I think it was in Jolie's paper. There is this appendix in which the three Nordic countries, it's a very good appendix in which a chart has been made of their future in gender and development. I noticed a big gap and the absence of something which the Swedish and the Scandinavian donors gave to the world and that is family planning. I urge you, I urge the donors and particularly the Scandinavian countries in the name of Elsie Otterson Jensen, who was one when I was in my teens, the Swedish woman who is the Margaret Sanger of Europe. Can I urge you to consider putting family planning back where it belongs? It is a human right, it saves lives and we know that family planning is the cheapest development contraceptive. Thank you. Thank you very much for pointing out that progress has indeed been made. This is indeed one of the key messages in the RECOM program is that AID has made a difference, it has contributed to progress, but obviously one of the things that we are concerned about is how can we make things better? How can donors indeed contribute as we look to the future? We already heard some reflections from ATIA on this specific topic. You have anything to add? I think it should be on. Thank you. One aspect I would like to highlight is that there is a big role for different people in different settings to contribute to this process of ensuring aid effectiveness, particularly from the perspective of a recipient country. One important aspect is to engage the parliamentarians into this process because parliament is the premier representative institution and in setting out the country ownership it is very important to set the goals that we want to achieve and if it is gender equality then resource is of course a very important aspect and how we ensure the nexus between the resource allocation and the attainment of the goal. These are the discussions where along with the government the parliamentarians and the parliament should engage so it is about fostering a very effective partnership and reflecting the concerns and also setting the priorities on the basis of the national priorities and to taking account of the national policy aspect, what needs to be done and projecting that to the donors, to the developing partners. Very recently there was an engagement through the inter-parliamentary union, IPU in New York which took place on the 14th and 15th of November which was facilitated by the UN and there was this discourse where about 200 and more parliamentarians engaged to highlight and gender equality was marked as a standalone goal and there was an agreement and a consensus that gender equality must be looked at in a two-pronged way firstly on the basis it is a standalone goal and it should flesh out like that in the sustainable development goal SDGs that are now being discussed but at the same time it is also important to mainstream gender equality. I will just give one example because in Bangladesh Danita is a very supportive donor and they assist a lot of projects and they have actually identified a few areas like agriculture, IT sector, water and sanitation. So if we just take the example of their support in water and sanitation this was a girl named Paula from Mozambique she mentioned that collecting water is the need and every morning I have to wake up very early to collect water and if there is a delay and if I get late then my going to school becomes effective and on the other hand if I wake up very early in the morning to collect water every day then I have a headache and I cannot concentrate in my class. So these are the practical problems. So when we are talking about a policy which relates to water, which relates to energy, which relates to food security we need to take account of the gender concerns that is the point that I am trying to highlight. Thank you. Thank you. Wotea you want to add? Yes, thank you. My impression about AIDS I remember that in 1979 we just come out from the purple regime where half of the Cambodian citizens died from that regime. So we start from zero at that time. So I still keep in mind to thank for donors that give AIDS to Cambodia if you are here or not here but please accept my thanks to you. And because of the AIDS from outside from donors Cambodia happened to be now. It is very supportive to the government. And it's still a lot of things to do to get AIDS to be more effective. Like we talk about the gender mainstreaming AIDS effectiveness is one of the cross cutting issue for our strategic plan so we still need to be more knowledgeable how can we can mainstream or support the Council of Development of Cambodian CDC to make AIDS more actively in terms of gender equality so still need more to be done. And also we as a donor, you as a donor you think about how to have AIDS more effectiveness but we from a recipient country we also think also about how AIDS should be effective because we would like to be strengthened through your AIDS elsewhere. So I think I believe we are on the same boat so we can make a progress so we can achieve everything. One point that I want to suggest to donors is to provide AIDS. Maybe I should give some example. In 8th of October we went to Geneva to respond to the question from the CDOR committee. So we have everything but we find hardly to get some data from certain central ministries that we have to show, we have to express not only the policy, the plan that we have developed but also the result, the impact from our beneficiary, the woman. So we find hard to get the data from some of the ministries but we have done a survey that the survey tells us that many data in many sectors but the problem is the data collection. We have to be collected, analyzed with segregation. So this is one thing that AIDS, you as a donor to think about this, not just gender but sometimes just the data available and accessible can help a lot for gender mainstreaming because we need facts to show what is to go forward. Another thing, there is a donor who supports gender mainstreaming or equality, something like this but there is many other donors who support different sectors. So I think let's talk a lot in this morning that we need also other sectors to think about gender. Put gender is one of the, what should I say, not indicator but like start with the gender analysis, not just to think about what you are going to do and to support. That's all from my opinion. Thank you. Thank you very much. Atia, both Shireen and Wutia are in, if you wish, public positions at this point. You have been in a similar situation but I was sort of speculating would you have some reflections on the special role of aid to NGOs? Okay. Do you want that question first or can I? You can certainly address the other points as well. I want to take forward when Shireen talked about the parliament and about politicians. I would like to add to what she has so sensibly said. Pakistan like many other countries in the world and there are many of them are in a stage of democratic transition and we, inshallah, it will remain that way. Now this is both an opportunity and it is a challenge. And the challenge for me is that we, this is the time to make women integral to the political process. This we must do. Now how do we do it? And I will very quickly because of the time factor give just one example of how we do it and Mona mentioned it today. And that is Mina, Mina mentioned it today and that is achieving a critical mass. That critical mass we have got in Bangladesh and we have got in Pakistan where we now have 20% women in the parliament and I can tell you what a difference it has made. In both countries we also have women speakers. We've just had ours and Shireen is doing a magnificent job in Bangladesh. The critical mass for me is Beijing's 33%. And can we remember that the game changer for women and gender was Beijing and CEDAW. So let's stick by that and take forward that 33%. Let us also remember when we are talking about the critical mass that there are, at this moment, there are no females in 10% of the member states accredited with the United Nations. The other area I would like to mention that how do we strengthen this when the woman gets there? She needs then not just to be there but she has to exert her influence. So for influence purposes I would like to share with you that in Pakistan we have got a women's parliamentary caucus. All the women above party politics and they can influence the women's agenda because we have got permission from all our party leaders that we will only talk common language on women's issues. I also want to tell you that for us and I think we need to when we are talking of women's empowerment and democracy, can we go beyond electoral politics because when you talk about women in parliament, you are talking as if their only function and role is to cast a vote and thereafter to be a legislator. No. A woman's role, the political space she is getting is to strengthen all democratic institutions which are linked and related to politics. So can we kindly widen this frame and here I would like to tell you that in recognition of this in Pakistan, in the CSO sector we have registered what is called the Forum for Women in Pakistan Politics. And it's Pakistan and it's not just parliamentarians. I think that we need to also talk about how parliaments can be effective parliamentarians and this is men and women. Let us recall that the budget and we've talked so much about allocations, we saw all those beautiful charts. The budgets are approved by parliaments and this is where we need to strengthen ourselves and get a vote over there. And here I would then legislation. I would like to share with you that in Pakistan we have in 2004 passed a law which is the Fiscal and Debt Responsibility Limitations Act and the parliament is bound to follow that. What else can parliament do? I would like to share with you the possibility that under the oversight functions of parliaments in all countries of the world, there needs to be a coherence between the plans of the country and the international commitments they have made. Because you go off and sign all sorts of commitments but then your national plans, so when a donor goes to have a look at our state of health, go and see whether in your national plan there is a coherence between the international commitments which our governments have signed off and those plans because I think the donors cannot move until they don't see that coherence. The second thing and this is where parliamentarians need to be constantly involved, all our countries now have gender action plans. We also have national action plans but the gap between the two and women must be through parliament, they must be in this issue of gender and gender action plan must be from the very beginning in the plans. And the third very important area in which we can parliamentarians can play a very important role and that is in this whole question of accountability. And because that is for greater accountability and at this moment the space that is given to gender, it is isolated from those big wigs and those important people who decide the priorities in the budget and it somehow get out somewhere or the other but we need to have measures, mechanisms and methodologies for clearly in parliament being told that this is what we have got on gender. I've taken my time talking on parliament but if you... Can I just add a few points very quickly with regard to aid effectiveness and what the donors should be looking at. I think from a recipient country's perspective I think it is important for the donors and the country to have a very good partnership and to see the time frame when an aid is being allocated what is the time frame within which it should be utilized. Secondly the conditions which are attached with the aid, if it is more gender sensitive, more gender friendly then it will have a better prospect in the operationalization of things. And the third is the procedure needs to be simplified because if complying with the procedure takes away a lot of time there is a lot of red tape bureaucracy then it becomes very difficult to give ultimate use of the fund that is allocated. And it is also important to sensitize all who are concerned with the process, with the implementation, with the entire working mechanism including the people in the civil service working in the different ministries. So they also need to understand. So there have been mechanisms like under the Paris Declaration, the ACRA agenda, that the joint cooperation strategies have been developed, local consultative groups have been developed within the local consultative groups, LCG mechanism, there is this women advancement and gender equality or wage group. But it is interesting that sometimes the Ministry of Women and Children Affairs secretary is not included in that wage component, who is actually a key person. So these are issues which needs to be ensured if we want to have effective and ultimate use of the aid and the fundings that the recipient country gets. Okay, thank you. I think at this point that I would like to invite questions from the floor. Can I see a few hands, there is one here. May I ask you to be reasonably concise, we are as mentioned of against the time constraint, but be concise, stick to the top. And you thought I was going to go on? No, I thought that. I'm Patti O'Neill, I'm from the OECD DAC from the gender net. Over the course of today, there have been several questions about China and India as donors. You three live in the region where China, India and Russia have been active donors for some time. They're neither new or emerging in your region. In fact they're more like traditional. I would like to ask you to comment, if you can, on their attitude towards working on gender equality and women's rights or whether you've seen evidence of it. And secondly, related to that, how far they apply the principles of Paris, Accra, Busan, which the honourable speak. Okay, so a question about whether donors adhere to the Paris Declaration, whether they're DACs or not. Other questions? Yes, there's at the back. Thank you. I'm not actually from the development sector, so this might be a very naive question, so I apologise if it is. But I read recently Duflo and Banerjee's book on poor economics and the use of the RCT paradigm in many other areas of development. And I was wondering in terms of effectiveness, if this is a methodology for evaluating and for comparing and evaluating programmes that's being embraced in the cause towards gender equality as well. Okay, a difficult methodological question. Other questions here? I think all of the speakers for a very insightful sharing of information about what's happening in your countries, I think this is quite useful. I wanted you to link your reflection to how you see the aid gender connection being institutionalised within the donors aid processes as well as the recipients aid management processes. Because the reason I ask that is that commitment is good, declarations are good, memorandums are good, forums are good and so on. But unless you kind of tie the hands of the politician and the managers, you don't get results. And the way you tie their hands is by having clear policies and strategies that actually bind them to pursuing gender outcomes. So how do you see that being operationalised in your own countries, in your institutions and also on the donor side? Okay, thank you. Karen, you indicated? You have a comment as well on the methodology thing? Well, a question for the panellists. This was very engaging. One issue that we're going to hear about a little bit later, and which we've heard a little bit from this morning, is that funding for women's organisations is relatively low. How do you think donors can do better in your countries to fund women's organisations, women's movements, who are vastly under resourced? I know Cindy Clark will speak about this later. And a second question which I think is harder. I am so thrilled to see the representation of women in parliaments. One of my colleagues pointed out to me, however, that parliaments are increasingly less powerful in many countries, that power is becoming centralised in executives. How do you think we can, as donors, deal with that and address that, and particularly as more women are part of the parliament? In terms of increasing, I agree with you fully, increasing your fiduciary responsibilities, your oversight, your accountability. Okay. Let's take one more question, and then I'll turn over to the panel. Yes, please. Thank you. This is a question that I addressed to all three panellists, but maybe if I'm going to make it a little bit more specific, but for the other two, maybe you just want to think about it. So I'm going to address the question to Atiyah Inayatullah. If I were to give you $1 for every single woman, whether she is older or a baby, that lives in Pakistan for the next five years, so on a yearly basis you get $1 per woman for the next five years, what would be the most effective way to increase women's empowerment in Pakistan? I just want one or two at most ways of doing it. Thank you. Okay. Thank you for a lumbar question. Where do you get the greatest impact for the dollar? So who wants to go first? Sireen? Thank you very much. The first question relating to all the different declarations so far, starting from Rome Declaration, the Forum for Harmonization, Paris and Accra Agenda of Action, it would be very interesting to see how far these declarations actually address gender equality. And I'm not sure because I haven't done that exercise myself, but it would actually point out certain things which would be useful. So I think that was a very important question to sort of go back and have a look at how they deal with the issue of gender equality. The other question which is also to some extent related is that these declarations are not enough, but it needs to be institutionalized within the recipient country and what would be the best mechanism of going about it. I'm sure different countries have different approaches, but if I speak for my country Bangladesh, as I mentioned that there is a lot of steps have been taken to put effect to the Paris Declaration and Accra Agenda of Action. The joint cooperation strategy that I mentioned, JCS, is part of that. And a lot of training has been undertaken to train these people who are concerned with operating. But I think another interesting thing would be if we could ensure some kind of a reporting mechanism or within a certain time frame some kind of monitoring mechanism like we do for CEDAW and many other systems. And there is also this Development Cooperation Forum of the UN Economic and Social Council which was established in 2007 as a mechanism adopted to ensure how far these aids are being actually put to use implemented and which also includes the parliamentarians within that DCF forum. So some kind of mechanism would be useful. Second is with regard to the question of and also it is important to ensure that the capacity of the recipient country and to absorb the aid and to use it, that also needs a lot of support because sometimes we see that the fund has been returned for not being able to use it within the time frame and within the conditions attached. So that is also important. Having the women organizations get more funding, I think we need to strengthen the advocacy and the reach of the donors and the linkage between these organizations and how the donors can actually find them. But some efforts are underway through the non-governmental organizations and that can be, you know, explored further. Representation of women in parliament is a very important issue. It has come up in the discussion quite a few times. And I would just say that, yes, the reason that we have quotas is we support that because in order to have the critical mass at this point of time, enough women are not coming through the process of direct election. So until and unless we can ensure at least 33% or 50% women coming through the direct electoral process, quota actually works. But in order to have more women to come through the direct electoral process, there has been a lot of discussion and one thing has been highlighted that the political parties need to understand this and they need to engage more women and give them nomination. But that is also not enough. We need to go even further because why the political parties do not give enough nomination to women candidates because there is an apprehension that they will not win the election. So why they will not win the election? Because they are equally capable. But then the dynamics, which is in the electoral process, needs to be addressed. And when we are talking about creating equal level playing field and we are talking about this, that the ruling party, the opposition, when they take part in an electoral process, there should be level playing field for everyone. I would like to stress and advocate that there should be a level playing field for men and women participating in the electoral process and the dynamics and the constraints, which actually hinder and impede women from coming out through that electoral process, needs to be addressed. Only giving nomination or only pressing the political parties to give more nomination will not be enough unless we can ensure and remove the barriers and allow more women to come through the direct electoral process because constitutions in our countries actually have that provision in place. But what we need to do is put it into action. Thank you. Okay, thank you. Ute, you want to add in here? I may respond to just to some of the questions about how far the donor, the donor, especially China, India, that where they are from the principle of the Perry Declaration or ACRA. I'm sorry, I don't know very much about this, but Cambodia, we have a report of 8 effectiveness, which is prepared by the Council of Development of Cambodia. So if you like, I bring one with me so I can drop it here for you to learn. And also we have two publications from you and women that they try to monitor and evaluate about 8 effectiveness in Cambodia perspective of gender equality and from the perspective of the NGO by going through the five principle of the Perry Declaration. So we have two to learn, two report to learn. Thank you. Thank you, Ute. I'm going to ask you if I can go to your, give a response on your NGO question. Absolutely. Thank you. Go ahead. Yes. With your $1 a day to every Pakistani woman, can I please tell you that today 45% of the people in my country, which includes women, are living below the poverty line. We also believe, and I'm a strong supporter of participatory development. And I think that that is the need we need to go in that direction. So with your $1, yes, I also want to tell you that the diversity in all our countries. We are four provinces and then as you go down and down, there is so much cultural diversity. Languages, issues are different. So participatory development is a must. I will then go with your $1 and I shall get by in their ownership and ask them what they want with that. That's my answer to you. Can I go back to answer your question on the NGO? And I'll answer Karen's question over there as well. Can I request all of us here? We are recipients and donors. We cannot have donor driven assistance. That is an important point. And this is where we come to the issue when you say that how can you increase the pie for NGOs? Donors must be transparent. They must do it with government, through government. And once you build up that confidence, I can assure you that there will be space because at this point of time being from the NGO world from which I started my career is almost a bad word. And there is money. It is available there but can I request that we talk of CSOs, the civil society organizations. Can we talk of transparency by donors in reaching out to that sector? And can I request that they are not donor driven? That's the most important thing to answer Karen's question. But I would like to say and the CSO sector has got a huge role to play as the vigilante over the parliament and also over the government. And they must be able to play that role in a way that they cannot do it at the macro level. The macro level is for the government to do through their own infrastructure. The second very important role NGOs can play is behavior change advocacy. The third very important issue for a matter for NGOs to take up is please they should pilot interventions which are scalable and replicable. This is what we have been talking about. So this is an NGO function that it must be scalable and it must be replicable. Yes we talked of institutions I think you mentioned and you wanted to institutionalize things. Can I share with you that we have got a national commission for the status of women. It has been established by law. It is in all four provinces and at the federal level. And it is an autonomous organization completely independent of the government. And here is a very strong mechanism which can be effectively used. And the last point for NGOs I want to go to what we heard this morning about the corporate sector about the private sector. The time has come and it is extremely important that this player the corporate sector is brought into the donor world. Just as you have the NGOs how you bring them in. And I think that the presentations that we heard this morning were fantastic. The challenge fund that CEDA and the DF different but look at the huge Buffett Foundation and the Gates Foundation. There is all that money out there and they're only adding billions to the kitty. So I would request that the corporate sector is brought on board. And it's the CSO sector. Thank you. Thank you very much. I'm afraid that we do have to move on to the next session. I know that there are some that I will unfortunately have to disappoint. I apologize for that. Empowerment, participation, liberation of the capacities of women are at least concepts and words that have been. I've been hearing civil society organizations. There is a lot of potential out there in the UN high level panel report. I sometimes sort of ask, do they call for a revolution? Yes, they actually do in one respect, namely on data. Maybe this is one area where another revolution might be required. Let's try and contribute that, but I would like to request that you thank the three speakers today with us. And we will now move on to the next session. Thank you for participating in this conversation. Thank you.