 Nigerian President Bolotinibu signed student loan bill into law and Bolotinibu in his Democracy Day speech says those who cannot accept defeat do not deserve the joy of victory. This is post politics, I am Messia Pukul. The President Bolotinibu on Monday signed into law a bill to establish student loan fund to provide interest-free loans to Nigerians seeking higher education. It was sponsored by the immediate past Speaker of the House of Representatives, Femi Bajabiamila. The bill was introduced in 2016 as part of measures towards addressing the funding gaps in the country's tertiary education sub-sector. Tunibu, in his manifestos presidential candidate of the All Progressive Congress APC, promised to pursue the establishment of education bank towards enhancing access to quality education at tertiary level. The President of the Academic Staff Union of Polytechnic Anderson Zeribi expressed concern over several issues as much as the high rate of unemployment in Niger. Now to make sense of this conversation, we have joining us Tunji Abdullah Hamed, a legal practitioner and Richard Wakacha, a professor of law in River State University. Thank you so much gentlemen for joining us. Thank you very much. Alright then, let's quickly start off, I'd like to start off with Tunji, what do you really make of this student loan act? For me, the law is good on paper as far as I'm concerned because I say so because I am one of those who believe that lack of law is not our problem in this country. Our problem is implementation of those laws. So if you talk about the intention of those who made the law and what law is meant to achieve is good one. Then when you look at whether it's capable of being implemented or whether it will be implemented to satisfy the desire of those who want to be, I will have my doubts as to whether that can be put through because there are so many obstacles or signs that I can raise regarding that bill. Lastly, how do we determine who and who that will be entitled to? I'm aware, they mentioned there must be any less than $5,000 or $5,000 per year. How do we know, do we have enough data to determine who and who are handling these amounts? How do we determine who are the beneficiaries, when will they be paid back and when are going to pay back? Where is the job? Why would they get the job to pay back? What are the responsibilities of those, how will they be paid back? So you see, I don't want to, I don't want the situation whereby this will also go the way of other such programs like, what's it called, these other programs that during the last administration, you just see them send money out, trade that money, Shopee and all those money who have been sent, shared to people and they say it's been given to them. We are not seeing these other things. So as far as I'm concerned, it's written paper when you talk about the law itself, but my worry is about the implementation of it, whether they will be able to, there is foundation for the implementation of that law is what worries me. So I don't know what they've put on grant as foundation, because there is no proper data. That is the basic one. No proper data, no means of who are qualified to be, I'm not talking about whether you apply all this and that. Why do you provide the information given to them? How do you ascertain that this particular student law will not go the way of fallacy? Because I know in Nigeria, we have fallacy per scheme that is meant for people who are not buoyants. But this fallacy has been given to most of the people in government and those who are rich and the leaders. So that's my worry. That's the area where I am worried about. If we talk about the law itself on paper, it's a very good one. But in terms of whether it will be implemented the way it is, I have my doubts. Well, Wokocha, your legal practitioner, I'd like to ask you. The Student Loan Act makes provision for education loan fund and for the student loan. Of course, you know that funding, what is funding to be drawn from 1% of all profits accruing to the federal government from oil and all the mineral taxes including duties accruing to the federal government from federal in-land revenue services among orders. What are your thoughts exactly about the education loan fund for the student loan? I think it's a good development. There is no way we can reach that initial conclusion, but it's a good development. It seeks to solve an existing problem and to bring reprieve to students who would otherwise have had their programs truncated. So it's a good development. First, every law presents a policy and the idea behind our policy is to address an issue affecting society. So at the policy level, I think it's a very positive introduction to our educational environment. There will definitely be issues to deal with. There will be draftsmanship issues and those issues about how the policy is going to be implemented. But I think that at this initial stage, the law just lays down the policy. There will be administrative processes by which greater details, I believe, will be provided to enable things to be streamlined. We know the number of tertiary institutions we have is not the scheme for every student that every student must take. It's for those who need it. So it shouldn't be too difficult to establish institutions we have, the legitimate students from those institutions, because it shouldn't be a difficult thing to confirm the status of students or studentship of an applicant from the institution that the student claims to be applying from. So I think those are issues that can be dealt with as we get about implementation of the policy. But first, I want to give kudos to the government for this policy, because I think it's one that is timely and we have those who need it and who need it badly. So yes, of course, I do appreciate your thoughts on the student loan, but my consent is about the funding, the source of funding the student loan, which stipulates about 1% of all profits accruing to the federal government from oil and other mineral resources, taxes, levies. You also have duties accruing to the federal government from the federal and inland revenue amongst all the sources of revenue to be collected. And especially if you look at the fact that we're grappling and struggling with revenue generation as a country. So I ask you, do you think that the source of funding the student loan, is it viable, is it sustainable? Yes, I believe it's viable, it's sustainable, largely because its continuation is not going to rely on a return of what is given out. So if you have an annual budget and all the institutions from which, all the segments from which the loan is supposed to be drawn from, that is the sourcing basis of the loan. Are functional every year? Why shouldn't it be possible? Yes, we do have a lot of issues, but I think we have more issues with accounting for what we are raising than whether or not we are raising something. So I believe that it shouldn't affect the possibility of this policy working through and hearing the results of our desire. Well Tunji, would you like to also share your thoughts on this? The source of funding this particular loan, especially when we know that, I mean with revenue generation, we haven't been very great on that, when you also look at the issue of transparency, corruption in the system. So do you think that this would be sustained? Do you think that this source of revenue, it's capable of funding the student loan? I think again I have my doubts, because here's how we started the subsidy, and the adapter we see subsidy as a problem to us. This is a form of subsidizing education in our country, and this is a way of saying, look, we are trying to help people who don't have money, and we are not looking to sustain it to me, at the long run, they may even say that the data will be complained as to the money is too much, and people are not paying back, and this and that, and then they are not able to get the required source of income to fund it thereafter, and people will come back and say, this is a problem, and they will need to remove it again. For me, I don't even think the source of income is not even the only problem here. It's a major problem as well. But I see out my doubt, and I will still repeat myself, that I'm not a prophet of doom, but I don't know whether this has been well worked out. Where is our data? We talked about, it's not difficult to know people who are looking for it. It's difficult. 80% of Nigerians are on the property level. So in other words, most Nigerians are qualified to be entitled to this student law. So most students, majority of them will be, in fact, they will be overwhelmed by the application they will receive in terms of people who are applying for it. It's not become, who you know, it's not become a myth. We have some people, other people who are put in place to enforce it, to implement the program, will not become multimillionaire in that process. I think for me, I rather prefer that, look, the education system is put in a way in a standard condition that, look, everybody will be willing to say, look, whatever it takes, we are going to look for it and ensure we are in school. So society, do what we are doing now, ensure the schools are put in proper conditions, ensure that the proper facilities are put in place, and then let's see how it goes. But as saying you'll be given student law, to me, it's a matter of time we'll complain about the adapter, about how to pay the money to finish. Wokocha, some people believe that with the unemployment rate estimated at 41% in 2023, it's just a case of putting the cut before the horse. Do you really agree with this school of thoughts that you can be having unemployment rate design and not trying to fix, you know, all of these issues, and then you're talking about, you know, student loan, especially when you have a period of delivery for about two years after NYSA? Yeah, the issue of repayment is an issue that definitely needs some much greater attention. You have problems like, where are the two years is long enough, and two years after what the law says, two years after graduation, graduation does not guarantee jobs. So everybody knows we have an issue to deal with in that area. But I think when you get to the bridge, or before you get to the bridge, you may be able to come up with higher, we cross it, that part of the law needs revisiting. But for me, put the policy in place. It is extremely important that we should talk of employment and think of how to generate enough employment for those who are coming out of school to be absorbed. But you're not going to have those who are coming out of school waiting until job is ready. So these are two realities that exist. Should we downplay one? Should we let one suffer while we are trying to fix the other? Should we let all suffer until we have ensured that there is enough work for everybody who is coming out? Because students are going to go into school, students who are going to need assistance, or who are going to need this kind of assistance, let me call it assistance, which is the loan, the loan facility. They exist and they are going to need it. The fact that we have not made enough job or we have not prepared enough job for when they will come out of school, we will not throw them out of school. They will be there, the need is there. So I think that dealing with an existing need is a positive development. We can fine tune not that you have established the policy by enacting a law. We can look at those areas that needs revisiting and do what we can about them to ensure that the implementation of that policy moves smoothly. So I do not think that everything should grind to a halt about the area of assisting students who need assistance. As I said, I think it's not for every student. Everybody, every student is qualified, but the idea is not that every student in Nigeria and Tashari institutions will go to school through the loan. Yes, of course. That might be a valid point. But if you look at the fact that the bill was introduced in 2016 as part of measures towards addressing funding gaps in the country's tertiary education subsector, then one would begin to think that it should have been important to stimulate the economy. I mean, if we say that, hey, as much as we agree that this bill or the policy, it's okay. But then again, is this not going to impoverish the already poor students? Because there's no guarantee, just like you have said, graduation does not guarantee you having jobs. So why don't we rather stimulate the economy just like this administration during her campaign processes had been saying, we will stimulate the economy. And one is hoping to see that we have an economy that's booming, and then we have the population unemployment rate reducing drastically. And then before we talk about this. You know, my thinking is that this is not done in isolation. A government that is thinking of how to support students who are in need in the university system or in the tertiary system has not concluded its work. You are going to talk about the economy, it's going to formulate policy about the economy, stimulating the economy and all that. They have responsibility for all that. But my question is, should other sectors wait until we have concluded work with the economy before we begin to deal with other sectors that are in existence and that possess needs that need to be met? I do not think that the fact that they have come up with this means that they have finished all they have to do and that they will no longer talk about policies to stimulate the economy and all that. This is just an action in the education sector. And it's expected that there will be policies on every sector and the countries in a bad shape. So this government must come up with policies to stimulate all sectors, especially the economy and the other critical sectors that need to be stimulated. That will come up. I do not think that we can argue that, oh, because we haven't seen that happen, that the one of meeting the needs of those who are already in the system and who will need the assistance should not be done. So to be realistic, it's important that we look at it in its real sense, whether around us, if you look around us, there are a lot of persons who have graduated for almost a decade and can't boast of a job. And so then again, what's the essence of then having to say you're trying to help the poor, you're trying to help those who cannot access a tertiary education or some sort of education, acquire an education based on loan. And at the end of the day, they have a repayment plan or period, which they're not also able to meet because the jobs are not available. I mean, you could be out of school for only God knows how long without a job. And so what exactly again, are we not putting these persons in bondage? Are we rather not worsening their situation? However, you look at it. I think we are not. Unless you're going to argue that we should shut down these schools until we have fixed the economy and provided enough job for all who are already. Oh, shouldn't we rather been thinking about having, you know, the vocational sector of education, you know, viable? Shouldn't we be looking at that other aspect of it rather than the conventional universities because it feels like we've been paying more attention to conventional institution? Remember, sometimes when good luck, Jonathan was president, a lot of attention was being paid to remember how many new universities were approved at the end of the day. So don't we think that it's important that we revive, increase, and pay more attention to vocational institution just to help? No, go ahead. He will join in no time. Okay, okay. That's what I said. This is not the government's policy on education. This is just an intervention for students. You don't even have a minister for education yet. You have not started talking of things government has to do in this sector. This is not done in isolation. This is one of several things the government will have to fix in the education sector. And then you have the economy and you have other critical areas that the government has to formulate policy on to fix those areas because they are in bad shape. I do not think that the fact that we need to fix those areas will necessitate that intervention for students who already exist should not be done. And we are not shutting down these schools. So even if we say, okay, let's not do this policy, these students are in, they are going to have to meet those needs, those that will drop out to drop out, the fact that we have improved the education system will not guarantee that they will have funds to pay the fees. And if we want to wait till everything is fixed, they will graduate whether or not the economy is ready. So I think this is just one of several needs that need to be met. And I believe that meeting that need does not take away government responsibility or its peoples or citizens expectation that government will deal with other critical needs even in the education sector. Tunji, do you agree with Wokocha's thoughts? I don't agree with some of his positions because like I said, firstly, I don't believe in putting when you get to a bridge, you cross it and you know what to do. No, when you want to do a proper thing, you want to do things that will give you results, you must plan everything ahead. You must know there's a bridge somewhere and when we get to that bridge, how do we cross it? It's not when you get to the bridge, you don't have to think of what are we going to use. Is it like that we're going to use? Are we going to fly? Are we going to do things like that? You will not be able to, you may be, you may be, ooh, are you able to go again? So for me, I don't believe in principle of when you get to the bridge, you cross it. That to me, it won't work. And I also agree also that look, the government is putting the cuts before the us because what the government needs to do is to proper foundation. And just like you said, let's have a working economy. When you have a working economy, people that are even going to apply for no may not even be able to emerge. And since today, the application you will receive, just open the product today and say people should apply for no student load. The site will crash because almost everybody will apply for it. Even those who have money, the scholarship that we have, most people don't know today that there's a scholarship for engineers abroad and within. Those scholarship are being taken by people who are in government. So when you come to this particular student loan too, it will come to that level as well because people that will apply will be more than they have any money. And in that regard, to be who you know. And people, and some of them, some of them will use it and say and connect it to their own, whatever. So as far as I'm concerned, the what the government is doing, I appreciate their thinking. I appreciate that they are trying to look for a solution and a palliative for students. But for me, that is a palliative that they would not be able to sustain. Because if you look at, let us assume they are giving 500,000 naira. Let us assume, how many students we have in the school? There are millions. So how much will they pay in the year? It will become like a subsidy. We are talking about subsidy because, not because subsidy is in the body on itself, but because government is not able to deal with people who are committed crime with subsidy. So what will happen if people who are also committed crime with the student loan? They will tell us, no, the loan is here. The people who are given to manage it, they are not able to manage it. And nobody will be punished. And that will be all. And they will fall back again and say, no, we can't continue. We have to close it again. No, we have to, that means you don't plan very well. When you don't plan well, you crash. So you have to do your planning from A to C. Not that you plan to emigrate and say when you get to that middle, you think of what to do again. No, it will not work. So as far as I'm concerned, the policy may be good on paper. The implementation that I can know as a Nigerian, I've been Nigerian for 40 years. And I know that since my primary school, I've been earning, it will be better. It will be better. Let's not manage it. Let's just sacrifice. We have been doing that. Nothing has happened. Nobody is punished for not doing the right thing. So as far as I'm concerned, people will see you this thing as a need of getting money, becoming a millionaire, and nothing will happen to them. Those who are given a responsibility of implementing it will become rich. People who are rich will also apply for that loan, student loan, and they will get it. People who all need the money most will not get it. And the government will not even be able to continue their attack. That is my worry. So it appears we are just rushing into doing it, just like what we are doing. So we need to do a proper foundation. And the proper foundation is to provide a economy that is working. When you have a economy that is working, people will not depend majorly on the government to provide everything for them or subsidize everything for them. People are ready to pay tax and pay whatever taxes are brought because they see what the government is doing with their money and they see that this money is working and the economy is good. But here in Nigeria, you can't ask me to sacrifice when I don't see what the government is doing. And those government are asking me to sacrifice. I'm not sacrificing. They are asking me to tighten my bet and they are losing their own bets. So as far as I'm concerned, my worry is about corruption in our system. The corruption in our system may not allow it to work like I repeat again. It's a very good policy on paper. The implementation is my worry. Well, we move away from that. We already know that some persons of this thoughts that it probably would be better to talk about scholarship at this point in time rather than having loans because when you talk about loan, loan should be for profit purposes where you grant loans to businesses and what have you. Then again, according to the arts, all students were talking about the requirement at this point. All students who have secured admission into any public Nigerian University or Polytechnic's colleges of education or any technical vocational education and training school can apply for the loan. It's one of the requirements. There's also an act that stipulates that students' income or family's income must not be less than 500,000 a year per annum to be qualified for it amongst orders. Again, what do you make of the conditions for the student loan? Do you think that the set of people, the caliber of persons that this particular act intends to meet will actually meet at the end of the day, looking at all of the requirement? Well first, those conditions you have just read out or mentioned indicate that this policy targets those who will have difficulty with meeting the requirements of education, which is the fees and the unnecessary requirements for going through the tertiary institution. It's aimed at the low income base sector, not the upper income sector. Now, whether or not it's going to work, it's going to be a matter of implementation, as I said. Now, we will have the concerns. First, how does the government determine the income base of the students whose parents are farmers? The fact that they are farmers doesn't really mean that they can't have an income base that exceeds what government has talked about. But I mean, students' loan is a policy that has existed for hundreds of years and exists in other countries of the world, the United States of America and the U.K. and all that. So we are not inventing the wheel. We have issues. We have horrible experiences. But I think starting a new government is like starting each day. And I think we must find the fit and the conviction to compel our government that things move in a different manner from what our experience has been. We must also take away the fact that this government is not one month old yet in office. And whether we can conclude that what we experienced under the last government will be exactly the same thing we will experience under this government is what we are yet to come across. So at the moment, we must have that fit that perhaps this government intends to do things differently. And without waiting for it to decide to do things differently as stakeholders and as citizens, we should point out the flaws. We should point out the things that need attention and persuade our government to take the steps that need to be taken. A policy can be good, implementation could raise problems, but it's easier to amend an existing law than to make a new one. So I think despite the challenges that exist, if we are determined to make it work and not just sitting back as citizens or to watch government go on with this normal jamboree, but if we take steps as active stakeholders, I'm happy that ASU and even those students, some students are not happy about it. But stakeholders like ASU and other bodies are part of the administration of this policy. So I am happy about that. I am willing to give it a try and to give the government the required support that it requires to do what it has told us it wants to do. But I'm not going to sit back and watch them do it. I'm going to be an active citizens and I'm going to make necessary interventions and deploy all manner of instruments of persuading my government to ensure that the policy is realized because the policy is positive and is designed for a sector that needs it. So it's not just the question of my sitting back to dream or think or have faith. I have a responsibility to make it work too. I may not be one who will have to benefit from it. Yes, I'm in the education sector, but we have a responsibility as citizens to make the country work and to draw our government's attention to what needs to be done. I may be wrong, but something gives me the impression that this government may not be exactly the same with the government that handed over to it. And I am willing to give it that try. Well, fingers across. I'm sure a lot of Nigerians are anticipating. I wish we had more time, you know, to talk about the fact that you would also have those who just like you have mentioned, I think you mentioned that or Tunji mentioned those who should not be concerned with this particular loan. Those who have no business in applying for this loan, finding a way schemas, you know, trying to get the loan with all of the requirements. Do you think that that can be controlled or curtailed? It probably would have been another question. But then again, we're out of time. Thank you so much, gentlemen, for being part of the show. We've been speaking with Tunji Abdul Ahmed. Tunji, thank you so much for being part of the show this evening. Thank you for having me. Thank you. And then we also have been speaking with Richard Wokachar, who's a professor. Thank you so much. Well, we'll take a short break. And when we return, we'll take a look at the conversation we had yesterday on the president's Democratic-Cedare speech. You stay with us.