 Okay. Good morning everybody. Good morning. Can you hear me? So my name is Ron Brennan. I'm from Buffalo. I own a digital marketing and consultancy called Can I Consulting Group in Buffalo? And I work with Ben. We run the local Buffalo WordPress community. If you come to WordCamp Buffalo, I'm one of the organizers every year for that event. And then come out here and help out Michelle from time to time with the WordPress Rochester community. So what I want to talk about, and actually I didn't even know Ben was going to be doing his talk today, but it's kind of neat that we're kind of going after each other because his set the foundation for what I'm going to talk about, which is page builders, the good, the bad, and the ugly. And I don't want to dive too much into the differences between each particular page builder. My hope here today is to show you that because I hear Ben often talk about when he takes over a client's site and they have a page builder or when we have somebody come on our meetup group and they're using a page builder and Ben's just like, all right, click here, click here. He's just like, whatever. Just try and click this thing. But what I hope to show is that there's actually some consistency between all of these different page builders and the general principles that they all utilize. But what we're also going to see is that a lot of the wish list that Ben just talked about in his talk about things that we hoped WordPress Core would do are baked into a lot of these page builders just by default. But we're also going to see what I think this gentleman was talking about is that because you have everything available to you in the page builders, there's a lot of bloats and these sites can, you really have to finesse them to get them to run at a speed that is comparable to just like a WordPress block builder theme that's just using text blocks and just basic blocks. So without further ado, let's get into starting to talk about some of this. And I also want to jump into a page builder demo and just take a look at what some of them are. So before I get started here, does anybody, is anybody using page builders right now in the group for a thing? Elementor, Divi, okay. And then there's of course WP Bakery, Cadence, like Cadence, it's not so much of a page builder as much as it is an extension of the blocks library but we're going to talk about those as well. Beaver builder, definitely a page builder. All right, so yeah, there's my beaver down there in the bottom corner. Beaver builder in the bottom corner. All right, so seasoned digital marketing expert and WordPress enthusiast, I got started with WordPress in 2008, I believe. I was building a website and I wanted to come up with a way. I thought I invented WordPress actually when I found it. I thought, man, it would be really cool if I could find a way that I didn't have to write, go in and code the website. Like wouldn't it be cool if there's just a simple interface and we could control it with a database and then somebody's like, you talk about WordPress? That happens with me all the time. I invented the water pick. I invented a lot of stuff then I find out that these things actually exist. But 2008 is when that happened. A few years after that I found out that there's a whole community around WordPress even in Buffalo and that's how I met Ben and Andy and then the rest is history that brought me here today. But my main goal and the reason that I got involved with page builders at all is because I work with clients. Like I said, I'm a consultant. I do a lot of digital marketing. Obviously, we build custom websites and it's cool if the client knows exactly what they want and how they're going to use the website. I can build a custom website and I've built some really intricate back end interfaces. It's built on WordPress but the dashboard is very customized to the user. They go in there. It doesn't even look like the traditional WordPress admin and dashboard when I'm done with it and it's just got the features that they need. Like you're an auto dealer for example and you just need to add new inventory of cars. That's it. It's a custom post type. You go in, it's got the fields that you need to fill out and that's all you have to worry about and it automatically goes where it needs to go on the front of the site. You don't have to do anything as far as coding it. But what I found is a lot of businesses, small businesses, they're kind of developing their brand. I'm working with small and up and coming businesses a lot. They're developing their brand. They don't know who they are yet. They don't know what their customers want. So they would come to me. We built the site. We go through this whole process and then three months later they come to me and be like, you know, can we put like a slider here? And now I got to go into the theme. I got to revamp it, launch a version 3.0 or whatever it is that now includes the slider. And page builders just give them a real easy way where I can say, you know, you want to add a slider to your website. Either I can do it for you. A lot of times they just want me to do it. But some small business owners do like the ability to just go in and make modifications on their own. They don't want to have to call me up every single time and pay me to update the title of a page or add a blog post or add new pictures to their website, for example. So page builders gives them that functionality and that ability. So what are page builders? Page builders are their kind of extensions that pick up the slack of where WordPress core is limited right now. So for example, Divi. That's the one that I prefer to use more often than any of the other page builders just because it's really well supported. It's got great features that are constantly coming out and it's really easy for me to show my clients how to use it. And there's not a lot of breaking points. Elementor, very functional, very, you know, has a lot of extendability. That's another page builder. But Elementor, you know, you can get lost in the weeds in that really easily where I find that Divi is just a little bit more intuitive for most of my clients to use. So I tend to go with that. But again, we use page builders because it's drag and drop. It's kind of what you see is what you get that Ben was talking about. And what I really like about them is it gives you the ability to build it on the front end of the site. So a lot of people right now are migrating over to like a square space or even Wix has gotten, you know, used to be like this cheesy, cheap product. And Wix has even gotten a little more advanced with their front end site building capabilities. Or if you want to add a slider to the page, you pull up the page, you click a button at the top. Now you're in edit mode and you drag the slider exactly where you want it to be on the site. You add a couple of settings to it or tweak a couple of settings and hit publish and your site is live and it works for you. Right? You can see what it's going to look like in mobile, on tablets and on full screen. So that's the power of a page builder. You don't have to write a lot of code. You don't have to write CSS. They give you like a whole control panel. So if you want to change the color of something, you click the color that you want. It's got a full extensive font list that you can utilize. If you want to change the fonts, Ben showed some of the limitations of the WordPress blocks editor in the last talk that we did. So we don't have to rehash all of that. But the challenges of choosing the right page builder for you and even the challenges of choosing a page builder and what I always tell people is when you go with a page builder, you have to commit to it. Right? Because one of the downsides that we're going to talk about in a few slides is they're not easily interchangeable. So basically the page builders work by just encapsulating all of the content into these massive short codes that include all of those settings that you're trying to get that plug in or that module to look like. It incorporates it all into one massive short code and then that's what gets saved in the content database. So Elementor doesn't understand Divi short codes. Divi doesn't understand Elementor short codes and WordPress doesn't understand any of their short codes. So when you'll see when I export this to an XML file like you would with any other WordPress site that just spits out a file and you can import it into any theme and for the most part it's going to work unless there's a ton of customizations. You can't do that with page builders. But the cool thing is with page builders you don't really need to do that. Divi is so extensive that any design that you can think of, any functionality for the most part that you can think of you can make it happen with that page builder. Elementor is so like there's tons of website examples out there that are built with Elementor that you look at these things you're like wow I can't believe they did that in Elementor. But you can do it because they have extensibility with coding modules and with code modules and then you could do child themes and all kinds of cool stuff that really enhances the functionality of the page builder itself. So some of the popular page builders out there that we just talked about a couple of them Elementor, Divi, Cadence-ish and I got a number three on the list because it's really gaining in popularity with blocks and a lot of people are doing it by StellarWP where you know Michelle works. So, but I say ish because it's not really a page builder it's more of an extension of the block editor. WP Bakery, Beaver Builder, Tatsu which I never even heard of but a client of mine that has a pretty large website. It's all built on Tatsu and it's a page builder and then of course the WordPress block editor to some extent is kind of keeps moving more and more toward this Divi-like, Elementor-like page builder setting where what you see is what you get. I don't think we can do front-end editing yet in the block builder. Anybody know? Yeah, so I imagine that they're all going to get there because these things are so popular and that's what people want. That's why they go to Squarespace because it's easy for a small business owner to just get started. The other thing that site builders do really well is and we'll see this in the demonstration is they give you a ton of pre-built really professional looking layouts to get started with where you hit the button and exactly what the theme preview looks like is exactly what you get and then you just kind of got to go and edit those modules whereas I think everybody in this room that's worked with WordPress for any amount of time has gone into the theme library. You say, wow, that theme looks beautiful. I love the way that looks and then you hit the button, you install the theme and it's nothing there. It's a hello world with the thing. It could look like that thing on the screen but it doesn't and it takes a lot to get it to look like what they had the picture and the preview to work with. So some of the features of the page builders. They've got a comprehensive library of templates and modules and powerful page editing tools. You can go in there. You can control everything from font size to color to margins and spacing and animations now are built in. The gradient feature that Ben was talking about is a limitation. It's got a Figma like thing where I can set up the stops along the way. I can set up the degrees that I want my gradient to do. I can build really extensive thing. I can do blending modes and all kinds of stuff without knowing a line of CSS. Things that would take, if I was going to write the CSS, some of it is kind of really easy to do in CSS but other things would be a few lines of coding and some really good tinkering to get it to work the way you want it to. These things you can just do it with their editing tools right there. The interfaces are generally pretty easy to use. It's got a streamlined workflow. What does that mean? It means that, I know WordPress Core now has these reusable blocks, but one of the really cool things about page editors is you can build layouts and then save those layouts. You can make them global so that you're just editing it in at one place and all across your entire website it just updates automatically. It could be a good thing. Sometimes it could break the hell out of your site if you're not aware that it's a global module and you thought you were just changing something on the home page and then you go and find out later on that you changed it throughout the entire site. But that's a really helpful feature and then just the ability to import layouts, export layouts that you built already. I'll do that a lot of times where I built something for a client and I want to use that exact same thing on this site and instead of having to rebuild it, you used to be able to just hit an export button and you could export that layout, that section, whatever it is and bring it imported into the new site. Now most of the page builders like Divi especially has a Divi global library so you just upload it to the cloud and as soon as I sign into Divi, it automatically is available to me and I can insert it into any other client's website really easily. That comes in handy with contact us sections and then all you got to do is change out what the contact information is but I don't got to go through the process of building out the layout all over again from scratch so that really speeds up like a development workflow. And then you get pixel perfect layouts without coding. So you can just drag things around wherever you want them to be, switch the mode where we were talking about you can't really do editing in design or in mobile view on WordPress block editor. You have every single different screen size that you can imagine and you can set custom screen sizes in there and then you can edit those sites pixel perfect right there in the editor and make it look the way you want it to. The limitations though are you do suffer performance issues. If you compare and Ben was telling me a story when we were talking earlier about a what was it, Elementor or Divi. So you had a Divi site and he rebuilt the site just using the block editor and it was like a 20 point improvement. You said in Lighthouse or something like that. Oh so yeah, so one from like a, what's that? Yeah, so one from a 40 or 50 to 100. It's just and it's the exact same layout. It's the exact same design. He just built it in WordPress native block editor versus using Divi. And why? Because Divi whether you want to use it or not you get all of this, it's like the whole kitchen sink is coming into that, onto that server with you. So every Google font loads whether you use those fonts or not. So there are some real strong advantages to I would say yes. Yeah, right. Right. So there is some who gives a crap but there is also some implications as far as SEO ramifications now with Google's new algorithm that does rank and consider site speed very important, especially that first content paint. So, right. Well if you're trying to get noticed and if you're competing on a local level with somebody, you know, but we're talking about milliseconds and in most cases it's things that are not even noticeable to the user. But they are kind of slow and you'll see it when you're editing the site. You know, the WordPress block editor works, right? It's fast out the box. You go to edit something, you're editing. Divi, you're going to see in a second when we do this. You're waiting a second for everything to load, all of the modules, all of the editing modules and it's like okay, I got to wait five minutes for this thing to, it's not five minutes but it feels like it sometimes. The learning curve. But there's a learning curve with WordPress, you know, block editor, you've got to figure that out. There's a learning curve with anything. What I like about some of the page builders is when you start using it, they have entire teams behind them when they brought new features out, they're backwards compatible, they work and they follow the same functionality and the same structure as every other release before it. So if you use Divi three years ago, four years ago and you jump into Divi today, there's new modules, there's some new features in there, but the editing side of it, you're going to open it up. You might have some new options available, but everything is going to work exactly the same as it did three to four years ago. You know, you just, you're not, you don't have to relearn every single time. Sometimes WordPress drops some stuff off and you're like okay, this, like, it's just a couple releases ago. It's like, this does not look any, if you didn't use WordPress, you used it like when I started in 2008 and then you jump in today and I go, I know WordPress, you don't know WordPress. You have to kind of stay with it a little bit. Feature bloat. That's what we were talking about, like Ben's trying to figure out what do we need to get into WordPress core and we went down this rabbit hole of, I want this, I want that, I want this. Well, the page builders can just do that, right? So that's what ends up happening. They're trying to be all things to all types of businesses. You want to be able to build an e-commerce site to, you know, a small mom and pop shop. You want to be able to do all of that and you want to give all of your users that ability so you can widen your customer base, but at the same time, every time you do that, you keep adding modules. I don't need those. You know, you were saying, I just need a text module and a contact form. That's what I need and maybe an image up at the top. That's all this little, you know, shop needs. So you get a lot of feature bloat with it. And then, like I was saying earlier, it's not easily converted to other platforms. So what I want to do here is just dive into, and if you guys aren't using local, it's not local by flywheel. It's WP Engine now? Okay. It's just called local WP now. So for those of you that don't know, I should just say, so this is just a local editor. You can spin up, I can just hit this plus button and I can spin up a new WordPress website in a matter of a couple minutes. You have full functionality, full features. You can pull up your editing software and jump right into it. Yeah. All right, so this is just a demo site that we created using Divi. So we're just going to look at Divi and I just want to kind of break through, use this to showcase the structure. I was going to do this all with slides, but all right, so you see the back end looks exactly the same as any other back end. I also loaded Elementor on here, so we could just take a look at some of that. And the crazy thing is that you can load this site's going to be really underperformant because I've got Elementor and Divi loaded at the same time, and I might as well throw cadence on here too. So if I go to the, let's just say I wanted to add a new page here, using Divi, and you can see already there's like a little lag time here, but I can name the page, contact us, contact us, whatever, it doesn't really matter, and then I can go and use my Divi builder. I'm probably offline. Awesome. Let's try it again. Okay, we're in. You can see we're loading, loading, loading. I know. All right, let's try this again. Let me just add it. So I can enable the visual builder here on the front. I'll just use this home page that I have here. I'll show you how I made the home page just using the pre-made templates. But this is what we're talking about. Like when you go to edit a WordPress site in the block editor I would have already been in there. Here I had to wait for all of this stuff to load. But now that I'm in here, I have full control over this site. And what I want to show you here is that every no matter, I don't care what page builder you're using, every one of them kind of follows this same structure. You have a section. And Divi, they're always blue. So if I need anything I want to control on the section, I can hover over that. I know it's blue, so this is the section that all of these contents are in. Inside of a section, you have rows. You can have as many rows as you want inside of a section. And the rows contain columns. So if I wanted to change the column structure from, this is a single column website. If I wanted to change that, I could just hover over here. I could do it over here in this little layers section. I like using the layers a lot. But I could just hover over this and click on the columns here. And I could turn this into a two column, three column, four column section. It's going to look like crap in a second, but it'll be a four column section. Now what Ben was showing earlier is, if I add a text column in here, I'll talk about these modules in a second. But now I have a text column and now I have this one long row and then this little tiny row over here. And Ben was saying it would be nice if you could easily make all of these the same size. Well they've solved that problem. You just go into the sizing tab here and you say I want to equalize these column heights. And then instantly instantly we're supposed to have equalized column heights here. Which it will work. It does work. I've used it a gazillion times. I don't know what's happening here. If I want to go back I could just do this. Alright so anyway, so we got our section, we got our row and if you go to Elementor I'm going to show you in a second. It's the same exact structure. WP Bakery, Beaver Builder, same kind of thing. Section, row, and then inside of your row you have modules and this is the power of your page builder. So if I want to add a new module here, this is a text module, but I can come over here and I have let me just blow this up so we can see. I have all of these different things. I could add an accordion, audio, bar counter, videos. I love this coding block that we were talking about earlier where I could just add any I know WP Core allows me to add an HTML code. Does that accept JavaScript? Yeah. So this, with this coding block I can insert JavaScript, I can put jQuery, whatever we need to do in that coding block it is full code. So that's always a nice option. I want to add a form here, an email opt-in form or any kind of form. I want to just get a contact form in here. This is Divi. I could just click on this and it gives me all of these features here and then of course in the design I can set up a captcha. I can do all of this stuff just easily right here in my page builder. I don't have to go and install a plugin for a form. Now I generally use gravity forms just because I really like gravity forms, I like the functionality of them, but this form if you just need a quick and dirty form that works that strips out spam and does it, it comes right out of the box in the page builder. So WordPress you would have to kind of use a plugin in order to do that. Whether it's contact form 7 or gravity forms or take your pick. WP forms I think is another one. Or you can get creative like Ben does and he just uses the comments section that's built into WordPress as the form. Which is a cool option as well. But everything's right here so if I click on the gear, if I want to make a change, I don't like the color of this text, I just click on the gear and now I have in this design tab here and what's cool about these in Divi especially is if I don't know where I'm supposed to go I can just highlight it and click on this little paint brush and it'll take me exactly where I'm supposed to be. Now I have all of the fonts that I could possibly want, all of the Google font libraries here. But it also gives me the ability to upload a custom font if I needed to do that for a client that's using a specific font. So I could change the font I could change the color, everything that's in here. Even the color palette that's down here by default, I can change this default color palette to whatever I want. So it gives you these whatever it is, six, seven, eight colors off the bat. So if I know I'm working with a specific color palette for a client and their red is a little bit different, I can just come in here, put in their custom red and then when I save that, it'll be available on every module in every capacity that I use that color palette throughout the entire website. They also do a thing called global colors in here which I thought was really cool. Not to try and make this a Divi, I'm not affiliated with them at all. And I used to be like so anti-page builder, I was such a WordPress like hardcore, like build custom themes, what are you doing using page builders Michelle, we used to harass her a little bit when she would come in here with Divi and then I was like you know what, for my clients, this just works. They can wrap their heads around it, they don't have to call me up every single time they want to make a change. They just call me up when they broke the whole damn thing and then they say what happened but it's okay because I have a backup copy of it. So that's the nice part about this. If we wanted to go in and these are the kind of things I want to show you here. So let's say I exit this now and I go in and I say I'm going to edit this page with the page builder, just the regular WordPress I'm going to hit edit page here. This is going to take me to the back end of WordPress what you're normally used to seeing and it's going to give me two options. It's going to say edit with the Divi builder see now that we've built it with Divi it's kind of making that front and center I have an Elementor on here so I'm not even going to get to that because normally you wouldn't have both or I could say return to default editor. So if I return to the default editor here and in this case I just put some stuff here now you don't even see this on the website. You didn't see this on the page anywhere because it doesn't exist. But if I hit update now from this default editor all of that work that we just did in Divi, it's gone. It doesn't exist anymore. This is what's there, this is what's saved in the database and that's what's going to be on your, this is now my front page. Right? But what's cool is if I go and I use enable the Divi visual builder and then I go back and I put that Divi in there you can see this still persisted whatever I had in the database because Core is using the Core WordPress database tables to store it. Divi's doing it a little bit differently. So all of this stuff persist in the database. If I go and I export the content from here just so you can see what this would look like, this is all the crap you get from a Divi. So this is what you'd be importing into another, into another theme. No. This is just the, I mean look at every single little thing that you could possibly imagine. The block editor's leveraging the database. This is not leveraging the database. The content's still there. It's still embedded in the page. It's still there. So search I'm not exactly sure how they do it but search works very well on Divi sites if you use the WordPress search module it definitely finds all of the content. So I don't know how that's possible but I don't know if that's Divi magic because I'm using the Divi search module. I don't know that I've ever done and used the actual core WordPress. I don't know if they have their custom thing going on there but here's one of the other powers of page builder over WordPress in my opinion is for a lot of clients that are just, are not clients but just people that are just starting out with a website. They're not designers, they're not coders they're not developers. Like Canva is so popular right now everybody in the room probably has used Canva or uses Canva at some point. We're doing presentations on it now because we're not designers but Canva just makes it easy because you can find a template that works and then just modify the text to what you wanted it to be and it just, it was created by a designer it looks really professional and really good and you don't need to be a rocket scientist to do it. So here in Divi we have a ton of pre-built layouts. So if you're a bookstore or a sunglass shop, a barbershop, you know whatever it is you can find something and it doesn't even have to be like you could be a barbershop that really likes to look at this esthetician website it doesn't really matter right? It's going to bring in all of these images into your image library that's kind of you know the downside of it so whatever's in this theme it's going to bring in but the fonts are all selected so font pairings are all there for you I just really like the way that this design looks I used the marketing agency one before let's say we're going to do an attorney there's an attorney layout pack. It gives you all of these different pages you can view them here just kind of get a sense like that's a really professional good looking start to an attorney website. So if I start with this layout and I just use that layout it's going to get me 80% 90% of the way to a finished product. This guy's an attorney. He just needs something up there so that he can establish himself as a professional out there that has a website and people can contact him. This is going to have a contact form that he could just plug in his email where he wants it to forward to and the emails are going to come to him and his clients are going to say wow that's a really good looking website. They're not going to look at it and say oh that's a pre-made Divi built website. Some of them you will look at and say oh that's a pre-built Divi made website. Now it takes a second obviously wifi speed whatever because it's importing all of those pictures and everything into here but once you have it and you see it kept my WordPress block up there so I'm going to get rid of that and even though I deleted it there you'll see we could show you it's still in the database so if I get rid of all of this thing and I swap themes all of that stuff that I put in the content and whatever I used in the block editor, the WordPress block editor it stays even though I just deleted it off the front end of the site. Yes I do not. I know it's the website we have this girl coming to our thing from the beginning maybe so the entire website is in French and then I have to actually convert it to English but even the all of the functionality so when I'm working on it on the back end they're using Elementor all of the Elementor functions are in French on that page builder and it's not like a special plugin or anything I don't know how it's happening but when I go they have to actually switch it to English because everything by default is in French and I don't know if it's because that's where they installed it so when they installed it there it just kind of new. I don't know. Oh you can. Oh there you go. I would hope so too. Okay yeah we can look at that in a second and just see show me where that is because I'm not familiar with that. Yes. I mean it's accessibility in some part but so here everything's here and then I could just exit this page builder and you know we have this layout. There's contact pages there's a whole theme pack around this one attorney's website client reviews everything so you know a layperson that's not a developer can get up and running relatively quickly. If they wanted to I want to add another review here they could just duplicate this row. So they could just easily hit this and now they've got two rows of usable testimonials that they can add to their website without knowing how to code a single thing. And it just brings you back and then you're loaded and you're looking at the website real time. You don't have to do anything extraordinary in order to use these. So going back to my talk here because I think we're almost out of time or we are out of time I don't know but in conclusion in conclusion you just got to choose the right page builder because when you do it you're kind of stuck with that page builder for better or worse. And to just demonstrate that real quick that's what I wanted to do the last thing is if I come back here now and I go into the dashboard just like you would with any other thing and I said oh you know what I want to go ahead and use 2022 or whatever what do I got in here 2021 I'll use 2023 we'll use the newest one so I have this beautiful right now attorney website that's killer this thing looks awesome I want to just bring that into 2023 and even if we just do the live preview we're going to get a bunch of crap yeah a bunch of crap is the technical I mean this is what you get you get this code block with all of the short codes in it new website that's what your attorney website would look like if you try to convert it to another theme but Divi doesn't want you to switch yeah they just import the they want you to keep using the page builder so even Elementor you could export all the blocks but then on the new theme you have to install the Elementor plugin in order to convert those back to what you have yeah I like how you like it to be like all symbiotic but they're competing with each other you know even WordPress is like coming up with these little things that are getting closer and closer and closer to Divi and Elementor yeah well that's another yeah that's another thing you're paying you know a licensing fee so like Divi is $80 a month or not a month a year $80 a year as of today to use the Divi license oh no wait is it $80 a lifetime 200 yen lifetime Ben loves lifetime deals correct yep yeah WP Bakery WP Bakery what was nice about that though is that use the core database tables so everything was wrapped in a short code still but everything was still in those core database tables there but I hear what you're saying like that's a real concern you know you gotta stick with one of those top ones so when you're choosing using your page builder I would you know as we're saying here stick with one of those top couple of page builders because they're really gigantic they have huge budgets behind them they have huge teams and support behind them there's tons of information out there and they're very good with support but if you go to one of the smaller page but like Tatsu I've never even heard of Tatsu and this guy's got a gigantic website that is very important to his business and it's built on this page builder that I've never even heard of and that page builder really could go belly up everything's in short codes and there's no like real support to transfer that to like Divi like if Divi went belly up I guarantee like automatic would write a plugin or something that would convert all those websites because that's a ton of WordPress websites that people are just going to go to Squarespace or something okay we have a brochure website for that what would you say about threshold of complication before you say this is too much for page builder like blue commerce well I so I manage a site or advertising at least for a site that we sell millions of dollars worth of saunas worldwide right and it's built on Elementor and WooCommerce it's slow as shit I'm sorry it's very we get a D the score is a D I have a thing that just monitors it swaps so sometimes I'll get up to a C or a B this thing is constantly at a D like I'm not managing the website I've just managed the sales but I'm like you're really killing my ad quality score and we're paying more than we should be to get customers to this website just because of how slow the damn website is we gotta do something and it's they just they built it in Elementor and they have WooCommerce and now you got two of the biggest like slugs going head to head here slowing down the website but we still sell millions of dollars of saunas with it every year so I would do probably with that site I wouldn't use a page builder we're investing so much they're making so much money on this website that at that point there's enough of a budget there to invest in a custom solution I would still build it using WordPress possibly using WordPress because there's a lot of content that they're updating as far as like products whatever I still use WooCommerce because it's great right but to use the page builders to all of the other stuff around that I'm like oh my god we're killing ourselves here guys I think you answered my question because I feel like there definitely is oh for sure look at your requirements be like look at your budget look at your requirements the client's not out of luck because there's a big community of developers I run into clients that have stuff written by someone so and so and so was on the board of the organization years ago and his cousin Louis was an IT guy and he wrote it in .NET and now your website is .NET and nobody knows how to write .NET anymore and that's what's nice about WordPress is that there's so much support Divi so much support Elementor so much support I think WordPress block editor Ben so just to follow up and close this thing out Ben showed like how it keeps progressively getting closer and closer to no code but I think they're mindful of all of the bloat that comes with a Divi and Elementor so I like the smart approach that they're taking we just like them to get there a little bit quicker now if you're somebody like me Ben whatever some people in this room that can modify those blocks and know how to write the code to modify the block it's great you know you can build really elaborate websites right now using the WordPress block editor and it's fantastic but to ask a client then to turn this site over to a client so you got to think about who's using the site and that's why I had to get in my own head like I could do all of this stuff but they're going to have to call me up because they're going to say oh I want to add a slider even if WordPress adds the slider they're going to hit the button add the slider and it's going to be off to the damn side of the screen and then Ron why does this look like this you know it looks like crap you know this is going to be the most bleeped out WordPress talk today so yeah anyway did you have a I'm sure you had a question oh yeah Vita yeah very popular yeah yeah those are the Louis it's another Louis situation we got hit by a bus you lie to the things just with the MSC and not even bother so isn't that is full site editing like I always consider that the same as blocks there isn't yeah well yeah I mean that's that's the that's the option but again we still have some limitations there because they can't build all of the functionality that right so you got to just kind of wait for you know automatic to release 0.5 and then we're going to get into a new version and that everything's going to look completely different in the editor again you don't have to re-learn everything but you know Divi's already doing those things Elementor's already doing those things so again it's you've got to consider your use case if it was just me and I know I'm managing the site I'm not using a gigantic page builder right well my current website is just a product that was demoing I was showing somebody like you could just turn your Facebook page into a thing and they're like oh so over coffee I showed this thing called page vamp but my normal website is just a HTML javascript website that I built it's super fast it's super quick it's got all the functionality that you need it's just HTML 5 and javascript and it does everything that I needed to do and I built it I maintain it but I got to go into the code editor when I want to do something there is no database there is no back end stuff I just you know code everything out by hand it's super fast and super that's good for me but it's not good I would never turn that site over to a client and say here this is your website yeah you got an FTP how do you get it you got an FTP into the site you know get an SSH go ahead and install VS code and then this is what you got to do right dream weaver does this still exist no it does oh wow okay it really applies that license to the site stops paying or it dies right so I'm a developer I issue licenses to the sites that I built right if I stop working with that client a lot of times I'll revoke the license so they're just not getting updates or if for some reason I don't stop working but I just stop using I stop using Divi for my projects I say oh you know what I'm done with Divi block editor is great I'm not going to pay this stupid thing anymore it's a lifetime thing I know but I'm not going to use anymore I cancel my account with elegant themes all of a sudden now all of those websites are not receiving any updates they got to go and get their own licenses for the way but that's with like my gravity forms licenses that I share and like all of those things too yeah correct and that's what I do if anything like that happened even when they decide they're not going to work with me anymore I just remind them you're going to want to buy this and buy this and buy this and buy this these are all the licenses that are included what is that I have heard of it cadence then that's like that's a cadence does so you know I don't know where we're going to get to the point where just automatic acquires cadence because it does a lot of the things that the core block editor the Ben's wish list are in cadence already that's good I'm going to check it out yeah I've only seen it in like articles here and there okay well guys thank you so much and if you have any questions or if you have a website my specialty is fixing broken sites so if you have a website or you're having a problem or you have a problem you need solved come and talk to hang out at the happiness bar or whatever I love jumping in and trying to help that's usually where you'll find me but thank you so much everybody