 From New America and Slate, I'm Bridget Schulte, and this is Better Life Lab. There's almost a kind of weird sadistic or masochistic pride, I think, that some people take and being like, oh, well, I work way more than 40 hours, you know, that's the bare minimum. And what is that? You know, why do we have that kind of culture? It gets more intense every year. The drive to work longer and longer and longer hours. And there's striking new research that shows that women who already get paid less than men are put at a distinct disadvantage by America's growing culture of overwork. We'll hear more about that research in a few minutes. For most of this episode, though, I want you to hear the personal story of a woman who for almost two decades pretty much beat the odds of the American workplace. She's smart, funny, driven. She worked for years toward her dream job. And she got it. But then something happened to change her entire relationship to work. Her story is inspiring and maybe just a little bit heartbreaking. Her name is Kenet Howatt, although I had to ask her how to pronounce it since it's spelled C-I-A-N-N-A-T. It's an Irish name. And I spoke with Kenet from her office at Emory University in Atlanta. I started my career as an environmental lawyer and really that was always my dream. And I think that the challenges of work-life balance are particularly acute when you have a passion, when you're working in sort of a mission-driven way. It's hard or sometimes, or at least it was hard for me to always have those boundaries. So very early on, I gave a lot of myself to my work. I was an environmental lawyer in a law firm. And that culture is one in which you're billing every six minutes of your time. And obviously all your time can't be billed. So you're really having to work a big number of hours just to hit, you know, that 60 hours of billable time. You know, during those days, I would go to the grocery store on the weekend and I would bring my groceries for the week to the office and put them in the refrigerator because I knew breakfast, lunch, and dinner would be at the office, at the firm. And, you know, it's funny because I look back on that. It's not as though I was unhappy. I really wasn't. I was doing what I wanted to do. I felt grateful to have a job. I was young and had lots of energy and I was learning. And that was also what everybody else was doing. So you know how that can be when you're in a world where the culture is simply to do that. You don't know that there's anything wrong with it. Right. After four or five years of that, you know, I started to realize that the partners who I worked for, who were all men, had stay at home, not working outside the house, wives who really supported their ability to be at the office around the clock. And I didn't have anyone at home and that was a big difference. And so all the partners, all the leaders in the firm at the time were male. There weren't any women or anybody with caregiving responsibilities who had risen in that kind of environment. There were women who were partners in the firm, but I didn't work for them. They weren't in the environmental practice group. There wasn't a close mentor relationship, no. And that was, you've got to remember this was early 90s. So there just weren't as many women in law firms and certainly not as partners. And now I think it's changed quite a lot. And I have dear friends who are partners in law firms who have two nannies and you know, they make it work. But at that time, no. It was really much more a culture of, you know, how much can we get done in the 24 hours of this day, whether that day be Christmas Eve or the day before Thanksgiving or, you know, it was very intense. I look back at those notebooks, I've kept them, and they're recorded all those years of six-minute increments. And it's sort of a funny feeling. Wow. You were in sort of a strange working world that really was about this constant production. You know, we think about that in sort of a compassionate way when we think about people working the conveyor belts at a mill or something. But there's a way in which those law firms in those years really were a bit of a mill. You know, you were a young attorney. They were interested in getting as much out of you as they could. So to put in, you know, to get the 60 hours a week billable hours, you know, how many hours would you put in? I mean, I'd always be at the firm by 7.30 or 8.00 at the latest and I'd always stay till about 11. I didn't work Christmas or Thanksgiving, but you know, you're still, you're working a lot. And I remember clearly being there from Christmas Eve to late in the day, you know. So I really think any attorney you talk to, at least from that period, will say that that was very much the way it was. But I will say also that very much in the same way that those people who are preparing for a career in medicine work very long hours in order to get a lot of exposure to different diseases and how to respond to them, there is something about working that much and being immersed in practicing law that does help you as a young attorney early in your career really absorb a lot of the things you have to know for the rest of your career. So I don't want to overstate it as something that was just horrible for me. If it had been horrible, I wouldn't have done it. But it served its purpose because I came out of that experience feeling as though I had been trained and was ready to take on other roles. You know, I was looking up some statistics on the American Bar Association website about women partners. Just you said that things might have changed by now. Maybe it's changed some since the early 90s, but it looks like women partners are still about 20 to 25% of all partners. The 200 largest law firms and managing partners, women are about 18%. And they're about half the associates and half the summer associates. And there's still a pay gap there. Do you think that the hours are part of that, that men are just able to put in more hours than women? Or what do you think accounts for that? I think that's absolutely it, Bridget. I think that the data speaks for itself in a way when you have half of graduates being women entering that workforce. What is happening to them between those early years and the level you'd come to in being partner, which would be maybe five years out? Well, most are in their 20s or early 30s, and many want to start families. And so you're thinking about how do you work the kind of hours necessary to rise in the ranks. And for many people at trade-offs, it's not gonna be worth it. And you may have the skills that exceed those of your male counterparts, but you're having to make those challenging choices. And so, yeah, when I look at that data, I can't help but wonder, do we still have a situation where couples are finding themselves having to make the choice of one person's career over another? The culture of the working world makes a lot of couples have to say, all right, one of us is going to have to lose our dream. I really do think it's very poignant. And they've invested money and time and talent. And it breaks my heart, really, that they would then graduate and then not be able to do exactly what they want to do. They have to make these compromises. So, you know, we have this assumption that the only way to do law is to do it like a maniac working 7.30 in the morning to 11 o'clock at night. Let me just push back a little bit. Is that really the best way to do the work? I'm so glad you asked that because I really... I didn't give you the honest answer that a lot of that was my own, probably neurosis or something. I mean, I'm sure someone could diagnose it. But it was my own feeling that I needed to be there and work hard and learn as much as I could because I wanted to be really good at this, you know? And I wanted to... I had, I guess, a level of anxiety or insecurity that if I wasn't there working as hard as I saw the people around me work, that I would slip, that I wouldn't be someone who would then be in a position to either be a partner or go out and my dream was to run a non-profit public interest law group, which I got to do. But I saw a lot of other people struggling with it. I think if you look and interview others who are practicing during that time, you'll hear a lot of the same stories that there was very much an expectation of overwork. That's Keenit Howatt. We'll continue with her story in a couple minutes. First, though, I want to put into context this culture of overwork that Keenit is describing. I recently had an interesting phone call with Yongju Cha. She's a sociologist at Indiana University. Yongju and her colleagues published a study that looked at American salary data over 35 years. The compared wages paid to people who worked a full-time 40-hour week with those of so-called overworkers who spend at least 50 hours a week on the job. It turns out we're now living in a golden age of the overworker. When we are looking at how much overworkers are compensated relative to those people who don't work long hours, we found that overworkers are increasingly better compensated. By 2010, overworkers actually earned 6-8% more per hour compared to their full-time counterparts. You know, that's so interesting. So people who put in more than 50 hours a week, they earn 6-8% more per hour than people who work a regular full-time schedule. I remember reading research by, say, Claudia Golden and others, say back in the 70s, that if you worked overtime, unless you were an hourly worker and you got time and a half, but if you were on salary and you worked long hours, that was just your gift to the company. You didn't get extra money. So is this a new thing that people who overwork earn more money? Yeah, our data starts from 1979. At the beginning, overworkers actually earning overworking long hours. That phenomenon actually flipped around the mid-90s ever since that it's steadily increasing. Well, that also coincided with the time that more and more women were entering the workplace. And so I guess what I'm wondering is who is able to put in these kinds of long hours? You know, is everybody expected to overwork and then never see their families? There's a very steady gender gap in the proportion of people who can put in long work hours. Among men, the proportion of overworkers range from 15% to 19%, whereas among women it's more like 4% to 6%. So there's a large gap. There are more men who can benefit from this trend of really striking increase in the wage premium for overwork. This actually in turn affects the gender wage gap. Education gap has decreased between women, but this overwork phenomenon it cancels out those equalizing factors. So in other words if the payoff for the overwork stays constant throughout the 35 years, then during the time we would have seen the gender wage gap decreasing by 10% more. So here's pretty compelling evidence. We already know there's a gender wage gap just in terms of the types of professions men and women tend to do. We also know that there's a wage gap even within professions. There's sort of this unexplained gap that men tend to make more. And now you're saying that overwork is also part of what leads to the gender wage gap. So all of that begs the question. So what do you do about it? There's a problem, but it's really hard to fix because it's really deeply grounded in the way that we define culturally how we define good workers. It's deeply grounded in the American psyche. So I think that fundamentally we have to change the ways in which we define good workers. It doesn't have to be the person who always be there and who always be available for work. That's actually prototype of that workers is a male bread-meeting workers who has a full-time housewives who can take care of all other things. But when they think about workforce composition, even among men, it's a very small proportion. Not only it hurts women, but also it hurts men as well. It's bad for everybody. That's Yeung Ju Cha. She's an associate professor of sociology at Indiana University. Let's get back to Keynetthowit. After her time eating breakfast, lunch and dinner at the environmental law firm, she landed a job as a senior attorney at the EPA in Washington, D.C. You know, it's funny because there's this sort of stereotype of the rural government bureaucrat who clocks in and clocks out. That was not my experience. In a very positive way, it was a time, especially at the EPA. This was under the Clinton administration and they had put a big emphasis on enforcement of our environmental laws and it was such an exciting time to be a young attorney. I remember clearly going to my manager and saying, I really want to get involved in cases related to these animal feedlot operations. You know, and we really hadn't brought many of those cases at the federal level and they were like, go for it, you know, and so I got to work a lot with the lawyers in the region bringing really important early cases related to those feeding operations which were causing very significant water and air pollution and just public health impacts to those surrounding communities, longtime farming communities that were seeing big, huge industrial hog operations and chicken operations coming into their communities and just really lowering their quality of life. So it was very gratifying, very rewarding, but you know, I poured myself into it and again I think that's the rub about feeling passionate about your work. It's the most wonderful thing in life and I always tell my nieces and nephews and I'll tell my son when he gets old enough, you know, try to find your passion and do it. But the thing about that too is that you want to pour yourself in and if there isn't a culture that is sort of telling you to also respect the parts of life that have to do with your personal health and I think about that time for me. I had no children. I was unmarried. I wasn't really dating anyone seriously you know and so there wasn't anybody waiting at home, you know so I just didn't go home a whole lot. I was doing what I wanted to do but it also, I can look back on it now and it was not in balance and that was almost my whole 30s you know and that's a time when a lot of people are having children and you know settling down and so it did work then it's sort of hard to meet someone and it's hard to have that life outside of work if all you're doing is working you weren't putting yourself in a position to find anything else, right? Yes, I think that's right and you know it also was not a big priority for me it wasn't as though I was sad about it it was just that I just didn't have as many opportunities and you know one of the wonderful things about Washington DC is there are tons of single childless women in their late 30s I had a huge group of fantastic female friends it's interesting coming down to Atlanta which was my next stop there were almost no single childless women in their late 30s early 40s I felt very conscious of that and people really would kind of look at me like what's her deal, yeah and it would be interesting to look at data specific to Washington DC along the lines of you know, are women there rising to the top more rapidly because I will say there is a culture of support I felt like I had a village of women who were in my same situation who were supporting me in my dream so how did you, you know, you say you have a son how did that finally happen so it was interesting so I moved down to Atlanta I took a role as director of the Southern Environmental Law Center I was doing my dream I was running an office of incredibly talented intelligent attorneys doing this incredibly important work to protect wild places special places in the south it was consuming and fantastic because there weren't as many other women in my same role I do think I had a bit of a wake up call, it shook me up a bit I could tell you the exact day that it all changed for me in terms of meeting my husband I had had a girlfriend from back in my law firm days when I came to town said to her husband, oh I think you know, I should set Keenan up with this guy who was a friend of his and I was like no, no, no, not interested and then it was Valentine's Day and the flight steward said happy Valentine's Day and I thought okay, I knew it was February 14 but I had no consciousness that it was actually Valentine's Day so that was when I thought, you know I need a little romance in my life probably so I got his number and we met and we're married now and I had my baby at 43 and I was incredibly lucky now I make that sound like it was falling off a log it was not I was working at that public interest organization you know much in the same way I did when I was at the farm and at EPA I was pouring myself into and I think more so actually because this was my dream come true, this was my job I wanted my whole life, you know and it was so fantastic, I really cannot say enough good things about that experience but the clock is ticking and I also really wanted to have a child and I finally made the tough decision to leave that job and very shortly after that I was able to have a child, I had problems with losing pregnancies I don't know that any medical person would say there's definitely a connection but I can tell you that from my body I think it was critical that I take the stress level on a notch in order to have a child my body knew I just needed to have more space and be better to myself physically in order to carry a pregnancy to completion that's Keenette Howatt I've been listening to her story here at the Better Life Lab with Dan Conley he's a researcher with ideas 42 the behavioral innovation lab we've teamed up with as we look at the conflict between work and life it's a pleasure to be here so Dan, what do you think? she's obviously dedicated and passionate she was working at her dream job and yet it was causing so much work, so much stress that's obviously really hard to hear working at her dream job she still had that same level of stress and I think that points to a lot of research from the behavioral sciences showing that intrinsic motivation can actually be even more deeply motivating in earning more money there's a great study asking Swiss citizens whether they'd be willing to accept nuclear waste in their backyard and some people are offered a substantial amount and a quarter of them say okay, you can bury the waste in my neighborhood and the other half were not offered any money at all but we're just told, hey, this is kind of your duty as a citizen of our country would you be willing to entertain this nuclear waste in your neighborhood and double the amount half of people said that would be okay so suffice to say intrinsic benefits can be really rewarding but obviously can drive people towards an amount of overwork that is exceptionally stressful you know, I'm glad to hear that she was able to have a child and realize that part of her dream I do think it's unfortunate that we ask people to make those decisions and I think part of the mission of our work is saying how do we create a world in which people aren't forced to make really difficult decisions like that and I don't think it's a dilemma but keen it is keenly aware of let's listen to the last part of our conversation I switched to the current role I have which is not an easy job but it's not taxing in the same way that those jobs were and I was able to have a little boy who's now eight oh wow you know, you talk about how running the non-profit was really your dream job I guess what I'm wondering is was it also part of the culture that just also made it impossible to do in a way that would have given your body and your self-time for more time for your life or more of that sense of balance you know, again is that the only way to work you know, just kind of all into the point of hurting ourselves or making ourselves sick you know, I I honestly think some of it is the person so I take full responsibility for my part in this the piece of it that I think is the reality of the culture is that you know, if you're going to be the head person running something especially a small non-profit there's going to be a lot of hours you need to commit in order to do the job well and what I hear so many women say and what I've experienced is the feeling that I can't do the mommy well and I can't do my job well and by well our standard might be extremely high Bridget, I think that's the thing you know, there are people no doubt who are realistic and very cool about it and self-commit and just say listen I can't be Uber mommy and I can't be Uber director but I'm going to be the best I can be they give themselves that grace you know, they just let themselves do both more gently you know, I wasn't like that and I think it reflected in my body having challenges being able to keep a pregnancy and keep myself as healthy as I needed to be so I think it's both things I mean, I think we really still as a culture and a country don't value and appreciate the important role that a parent plays being there for their child so it's not as though the workplace alone needs to adjust there need to be adjustments to make child care easier I mean, even quite honestly the 40 hour work week I mean that was a decision you know, it's always been interesting to me that there's almost a kind of weird sadistic or masochistic pride I think that some people take and being like oh well, I work way more than 40 hours you know, that's the bare minimum you know, and what is that, you know, why do we have that kind of culture did you see that in the non-profit world you know, there have been studies that show there's kind of hero hours and there's also a lot of burnout very mission driven work and that's part of what you were doing as well did you feel that you were sort of on the verge of burnout, did you see that around you? oh, I absolutely saw that and yes that was really a lot of the reason I left I mean, I left a job I loved I left my dream job and you know, you don't do that lightly it was the result of a lot of soul searching on my part where I realized I am physically mentally, emotionally completely burned out and I have got to if I'm serious about having a child I have got to get myself in a place where I can do work good work but I don't feel the same level of stress and you know, your point about nonprofit public interest work being particularly prone to that sort of hero factor it's so part of that psychology I mean, it's really true and it's not just an egotistical thing, I mean it's a true feeling that many times when you're doing that work but for you and your intervention and you being there, something very bad might happen and that's not an exaggeration I mean, it's for real, you know, very often so few hands on deck to do that good work it does lead to this sense of, you know, I don't like having to be here this much but I really need to be. So what's it like now? You've changed jobs, you've ratcheted back the stress so to speak and the responsibilities, how would you describe the way you make time for work and life now? I feel a little bit like a hovering alcoholic you know, where I am careful not to go to the bar, you know, I have to watch myself a lot I mean, really, quite seriously, I think there is a little bit of an addiction to work that had happened for me and I don't feel like I have that right now but I have to say I keep a watchful eye on myself and I am prone to lapse still into a frenetic workplace but what groundsman brings me back is this little eight-year-old boy who does need me to be at home. That's Keenette Howatt. I spoke with her from her office in Atlanta where she is director of sustainability initiatives at Emory University and a mom. So, Dan what do you think? I think one of the things we heard was the notion of work comes from the idea that you understand that when you do this work, this is what happens when I write this proposal maybe we get the client or we get funded, right? When I write this report for the world X number of people see it and they read it and they appreciate the ideas. I think often in the rest of our lives, the input output isn't so clear. You know, I made time to just relax and read a book great but you know what does that mean? Workers who are also parents often have the kind of clearest demands on their time from other aspects of their life and while those clear demands can create stress and conflict when they're in tension with the clear demands of work, at least having them kind of gives people a reason to step away and so her son, it sounds like, helps her understand that there are other parts of life that are also you need to invest time in and they're kind of very clear asks. Is there a way to work that does sort of honor that sense of calling but also doesn't burn you out? I hope so. And we're hoping to find it. I think it's, it is a trap to say that any individual person needs to structure work that way. I think there are kind of far greater societal, cultural, and organizational forces within workplaces that put these demands on people and to say well you've chosen one way or the other and that's your problem, I think often is tricky. So our work is saying, okay maybe there are some things that individuals can do but also we recognize that the ability of any one person to change the face of work-life conflict is limited and it's really about changing how organizations function to stop forcing people to make those choices. All right, great. Dan, thank you so much for coming by and talking with us. Thanks for having me. It's been a pleasure. Dan Conley. He's a senior associate at ideas42 the behavioral science and design lab we've teamed up with to look at the art and science of living a full life. You can find out more about their work at ideas42.org For more resources on working healthier visit us online at newamerica.org Click on the link for Better Life Lab. Better Life Lab is produced by New America in partnership with Slate. Thanks so much for joining me for our podcast about the art and science of living a full and healthy life. It's a collaboration with ideas42 supported by the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. Our producer is David Schulman. If you enjoyed this episode take a moment to review us on Apple podcasts and for more stories and research about working healthier and more effectively visit us online at newamerica.org I'm Bridget Schulte.