 Alright, welcome back. Faso C. Serafa D. Natondez is the national president of Amban and he joins me now to look at developing issues in the nation's financial inclusion draft. Many thanks for joining me, Mr. Natondez. Thank you for having me. Good day. The last time we had a discussion or the last time I heard from Amban really was when the NFIC was introduced in Nassarawa state in March the 1st. So far can you tell me how far that policy has been and what are the latest updates? Thank you so much for checking on that development. I think NABO financial inclusion introduced by Amban and officially flagged off by the governor of Nassarawa state has been very, very successful so far. It has created the needed awareness which is the first objective and a lot of stakeholders have actually keyed in to the idea because it's meant to be stakeholder driven. Part of it is that the office of the president on financial inclusion has been able to partner with this and has been able to support us to get into the last mile. And also service providers too, they have been able to also key into this. We have been able to meet with the DG of National Identity Management Commission and we are discussing on how they can also push out most of these critical services. And we all saw it in the news that immediately they are pushing out those services that are difficult to reach. Those services like change of name, change of date of birth. So they hurriedly push it out because of this advocate. And I think all the providers too, they are also reaching out to us and as of today we have been able to activate about 10 states as of today. Our people, the masses of our people are finding it easy to access most of those services. And you also observed that most of the banking halls that were actually supposed to be jump out, they are relieved of those crowds based on our intervention. So let me ask so far, because in your opening self that you talked about how NIMC and of course other agencies are actually binding to that. So would you say the NIMC which handles NINs and all of that, would you say the relationship with Amban has been smooth in terms of maybe giving you access to actually enroll NINs? Of course it's been smooth. And I think for the DG to also mobilize and give us the audience to discuss about this, it shows some level of commitment to solving identity challenge in Nigeria. And I think the process may be slow for them to finally release most of these services, but I think they show some level of commitment. So are you saying that in no distant time would see Amban agents enrolling NINs? As of today, Amban agents are enrolling NINs. I think part of the service that we are trying to get out across to the last mile are services like modification, change of name, change of date of birth, because we know that now that it's a matter of policy that NIN and BVN should be linked to accounts, especially accounts from tier 2 to tier 3. And for you to be able to map the two identities together, their data sets have to be the same. What I mean by that is that the full number you use in BVN or be the same that you use in NIN, your name should be arranged the way it's arranged in BVN and NIN. And we know that BVN is a very old identity in which most of the people, maybe by then, somebody like ladies, they are now women, they are married now, they have name change, so they need to update. And they cannot be looking for NIMC offices around the country, so the easiest place to access is actually agent location. And I think that's one of the reasons why we rolled out Neighborhood Financial Inclusion Centre, so that it can. And also we also got a very high level of support from telecommunication companies. So at that centre today, you can actually welcome back your SIM, you can also swap, you can also link your SIM card to your NIN. Yes, yes, we easily, we are able to get that services out from telcos. Very nice 10 states now, I would be so, so happy if I were to be able to get so much better all the states. Yes, yes, the challenge why the movement is slow is because of the resources. To involve some expenses, you need to provide the gadget by yourself, you have to provide the devices to do the NIN, to do the BVN by yourself. Though we have written to NIMS, Nigerian and Tabank sentiment scheme to also make, I mean, provide some of these devices for agents to be able to reach the last mile. We are also expecting their feedback as regards that. Okay, so have there been any challenge or challenges you've encountered? We talked about correlation between, you know, these parameters, this data, you know, for NIN and BVN. What are some of the challenges that you've encountered at the NFICs and how have you been able to tackle them? Yeah, most of the challenges are basically the level of, the kind of the people we are dealing with at the last mile, at the informal sectors. Most of them may not even remember their NIN, they may not remember their BVN. Most of them don't even know the date of birth using their BVN. You know, we are dealing with informal sectors where most things are estimated. Our grandmothers, our fathers outside there, during the BVN enumeration then, when you ask them their age is a matter of a was born before the civil war. So it is not left to you to estimate. And with that, they don't have the accurate date. So we need to do what we call verification using our platform to check which date was used. The grandmothers go ahead to do the KYC and everything. The KYC and everything. Oh, wow. That's a whole lot of work. It's a lot of work. It's a lot of work, yeah. Okay. So let's still talk about concerning agency operations and all that. I know you, Amban, is said to launch something very soon. I need to understand because, okay, before we even get into that, NFI says we are still talking about how do I really know what agent is registered with Amban. So I just don't, just go to one run of the mill, pure as operator and then just ask for such services. Okay. Part of what we have introduced recently is identity. So you can look out for the Amban logo in agent location. And most importantly, most Amban locations are well structured. They are of standard, you know, that can carry out this exercise because there are requirements for you to be able to undo most of the sensitive services. And for the Naval Financial Inclusion, they are easier to get to locate because we actually sign them at open spaces, public schools, markets. So you'll see our banners there. So they are easily located. You can sign them. You said 10 states. So if we just have to just go statistically, 10 states, how many centers so far in the 10 states? Okay. As of today, we have covered about 50% of each local government in the particular states, as of today. So for Lagos, Limosho, Ikeja, Sagotedo area, so Agbado, so we have the intelligence. And that is where they are actually needed. All right. Okay. Let's talk about security now because that's one of the issues that have been brought to the front bonnet and some of your meetings that have attended. Safety of agents, safety of customers, their cash and every other thing. There's something in the offing, agents' joint tax force. And from what I can see from your flyer, I don't know if we can just roll that on a purest agent compliance with CBN regulation to talk about agent identification, agent authorization, verification, agent security. Just shed more light on this. Okay. Thank you so much. There has been a clear on call in the industry on how do we control the menace. The more you expand financial inclusion, the more you relax the policy around a payment system, the more menace you recorded, the more crimes that will come along with it. 12 years ago when central bank of Nigeria rolled out financial inclusion strategy and put it as a target that we need to hit 80% inclusion rate by year 2020. And all the channels were deployed. Additional POS, additional agents, additional ATM machines, increased the number of microfinance, digital platforms, all these were necessary. And to go be the glory, I think we are hitting the numbers. We are very close to 80%. So we are still very close to 80%. But when we are rolling out all that, we may not be aware that the crimes we grew along with it. And as of today, there have been a lot of complaints, especially on POS, on POS agents across the country. I think based on statistics, the largest fraud cases are traced to agent locations as of today. And that can also be confirmed by the recent declaration of the Inspector General of Police that they should stop all POS in all police stations across the country. And when you look at this, you'll look at it that is like killing an enhanced with a sledgehammer. Because when you look at the most of the police facilities today, only agent locations are the ones servicing them. So financial inclusion has been revised by that deliberate action. And we will not actually blame the IG but there is a need for a platform. And that is why we are coming up with a similitude of PCRC, the police community relation committee in our neighborhoods to ensure policing. So this time around, we are coming up with a joint task force in our own constitution and association. We have a standing committee, we call it anti-money laundries committee and task force committee. And based on that, we are working with all the security agents in the country to serve as their intelligence touch points. Because we are the one that are the last mine. We are the one that really have the understanding of the industry. So we can now have a platform where we can escalate to the security agents to come and perform their own duty of, you know, enforcement. When you look at the agent banking regulation documents from the CBN, there are a lot of regulations there that are not being implemented today. So we have them, we have the idea about it and we can now refer based on this committee, this joint task force. We can work with our police, our DSS and at a civil defense to now point those regulations to them for them to intervene and implement. For example, today when you get to our markets, you will see people hanging bags on their neck with their POS and their colleagues, come and withdraw, come and withdraw. You know, a lot of them have scammed. Are they part of your agent? They are not, they are not because in line with the CBN policy, agents are meant to operate in a physical location, you know, so that you will be identified with that location. But somebody that is roaming, roaming agents is not part of the procedure, it's not part of the approved channel of delivery. So how do they get their termination? It's because nobody is checking them, it's because nobody is checking them. So as of today, we can now use this platform, a joint task force, to refer to the police within their neighborhood to get them in check. We all know that this has provided a lot of job opportunities to Nigeria, but you have to do it in a legitimate way. And that is why we are launching joint task force to ensure that people comply with the laid-down policies. All of it here, I can see whistleblowing, you know, one thing about whistleblowing in Nigeria, most people are usually not so forthcoming in, you know, telling the stories or the true picture of what things are, because for the issue of security and them being exposed, so have that been factored in? Oh, very well, very well. Part of what we have been able to bottle for long are those red flags, because fraud doesn't just happen, there are flags, you know. For instance, just to tell you the critical nature of agents, the agent play, you have about 1.8 million agents across the country in the rural of the Ruramis, and it has a lot of, we can't leave them unregulated and unwatched, because they have huge security implications. I was privileged to have an experience in bandicked prawn areas, Beningwari in Niger states, where most of the transactions that are happening at the agent locations, most of those customers are actually bandits, and they are actually bandits, and the red flag is the kind of transaction they are doing in that environment. And when you look at it, we get the backend, we get the notifications, we get the kind, the amount of transactions, and you know, the repetition of the amount of such transaction. Yeah, but there is no platform to escalate it. You know, we look at the situation where bandits will want to collect ransom, and maybe some of them measure the deal in cash, and if you don't have cash and they are forced to collect transfer, all suspected agents, they go to all suspected agent locations, they will send the account number of the agent, receive the transaction, and the agent will not be aware that it's a ransom, it's for ransom, you know, it will just say I want to receive starting money, but I don't have an account, you know. So these agents will be in trouble at the end of the day when police are doing their, you know, investigation. A lot of, a lot of incidents are estimated at the agent location, and these agents have been in trouble for the offenses that they have not, you know, committed. So but with the Gentiles Committee, we will be able to share most of these red flags, so the police can step in. Okay. And we will be able to also, I mean, solve the problem of bandits, you know, in our rural area, because when you don't give access to payments and services for illicit transactions, then you are meant to, you know, to discourage ransom collection. So let's continue now. Let's talk about agent identification and of course, customer privacy checks and all of that as we round off. Thank you so much. I think one thing that has been missing in terms of regulation within this space is agent identity. Who are the agents? How do we even identify the agents? So our association, Association of Mobile Money and Bank Agents in Nigeria, introduced identity for agents. Are you giving them cards? Yeah, it's, you know, identity is beyond cards now. It's about having your NIN, you know, you know, domicile with a particular, you know, entity. So we now have NIN verification on our portal. If you are signing up to be a member today, you have no choice than to leave your, because it has to request for your NIN. We have automated the whole processes. And the beauty of it now is not just for you to carry ID card. Security agents will now be able to verify the authenticity of your ID card. True. It's a QR code technology. So there's a QR code technology. So any police, any DSS can walk to any POS agent location today, identify yourself, and we'll be able to scan it to confirm if they are real. Okay, so let's run off. Let's talk about customer data privacy checks. Yeah. And as you do that, let's also talk about the future of the agency banking in Nigeria. Okay. Thank you so much. You know, we are dealing with sensitive information, card details of customers. We are dealing with a record of customers. So it is important that agents that will be handling such should be properly trained on customer privacy, you know, laws. And I think it is continuous training. And we're also encouraging the service providers to ensure that this is infused into their training curriculum. It is very, very fundamental. We have been alleged today that POS agents now scan ATM details of customers. All those allegations, they may be true because customers don't even know who are the real agent or who are not the real agent. For now, we are now encouraging customers, look out for AMBAR logo so that before you can present your card to be sure that your details are secured. We will be able to depend, you know, anything that happens when you present your card at AMBAR location across the country. That is very fundamental because part of the policy of the CBN is that every agent should display the logo of their financial institution. You can't find it there today. You can only see who has a EPOS. You are meant to present, you know, to display a force bank or money point, you know, if you are an agent to do service provider. But we are working around that. I can't find it anywhere. And that is why this joint tax force is coming into, to calling the attention of the security agents to check all this. And this will also sanitize our space. Also a very big thank you to you, Mr. Atondah, for sharing all of this useful insight. And this recent development so Nigerians can be protected. The agent themselves can also be protected and of course will now enjoy the inclusion that we've been talking about for about 10 years or so. Very well. We do appreciate your time. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you. All right. And that's the size of the show for today. My guest has been Sharafuddin Fasasi Atondah. He is the national president of AMBAN. That's the Association of Mobile Money and Bank Agents of Nigeria. And we have been looking at financial inclusion in the country. We'll see you again next time. I am Justin Akadunye. Many thanks for being there.