 Thank you Heather, thank you so much for meeting with us today and we'll talk about the project that we're specifically working on we want to talk to you about but first if you could say your name and what I'm really excited about is your position is both you know someone with experience and now working in facility so if you could just explain that unique position that you hold sure you're an expert sure so I work at Vermont works for women I am coming up on my tenure anniversary and I've held many different positions in my 10 years but my current position is as a program manager for justice involved services I started working in the facility in 2017 and I approach this work from the lived experience aspect so I myself am a woman in long-term recovery and because when I was in active addiction I did come in contact with the legal system and so although I wasn't incarcerated at this facility I do have some experience and have overcome those barriers that you know a criminal record will impose and so I approach the work by recalling what it was like to be in the client seat and what are those services and resources that I could have used when I was in their position nice that makes you so uniquely positioned right for your work it really does because when I say I get it they know I get it and I think also when I share my story with women and I'm very open about my story we do weekly orientations for folks who are new in the facility and that's why I introduce myself to them so they know right from the beginning I have been in their seat and it's not easy and you know I have a recovery day and I have a sober day because I don't think a relapse means your recovery starts over just means your sobriety starts over because there's lots of lessons that you've learned along the way and a lot of knowledge gains that don't go away once you have those knowledge gains they're yours to keep nice nice so the project that we're working was a few projects working on but the one that we really want to dig into today is just really trying to make it real budgets being value statements so right now as you know as we know they're proposing about $90 million to spend on a new women's facility and that is one use of funds and we can still do that and also create a wider network of caring community and so you're part of that community of care you're providing services so first maybe just let's explore the services that you provide for is it reentry or is it prevention and so we provide in facility services preparing women for release and gaining those skills so that they can be successful once released and then we also provide reentry and transition services I would prefer to you know be more on the side of reintegration rather than reentry because I think reintegration is stronger than reentry and reintegration replies that there's that community aspect because you know oftentimes when there is substance use disorder to maintain your recovery you have to avoid people places and things and it's not easy to build new people places and things so oftentimes I will work with clients preparing for reentry and I will encourage them to utilize the program COSA circle of support and accountability which are through the justice and reentry centers because that program is structured in a way that three or four community volunteers are on your team and they already have networks in that community that you can now tap into just because they're on your COSA team and so that really gives you that that leg up of building new people places and things nice so thinking of all the programs that you offer and the you know let's take a it's so exciting to think vision-wise like you know strategy statements so like if you had more money like I know COSA from firsthand experience that there's not enough money to provide enough COSAs for the people that want it so we know there's you know so can you think of the different services that you already provide that could be extended if you had X amount more of money well I think COSA definitely expanding that program so that nobody was left out that wanted to have a COSA team mentoring is another way mercy Connections runs the mentoring program for women who are incarcerated and I know sometimes people have to wait for a mentor before they and I think also it's important that participants aren't just matched with the next person on the list like it has to be a really thoughtful and intentional match we do the same thing when preparing women for employment it's not about any job it's about the right job because if that woman does not feel valued in the workplace you're not going to build that loyalty and that retention that the employers looking for mm-hmm so COSAs mentoring like both of those I'm certain could use X amount more money do you have have an amount that you would I am not the finance person and so I wouldn't even know where to begin I'm coming up with a budget I just know it needs more than it's getting yes exactly and also I think you know looking at the ways the volunteers are trained because not most of the volunteers aren't going to come with that lens of lived experience so if there was integrated into the training of the volunteers maybe panels with folks who have that lived experience I'll give I'll give you a good example because I was working with a participant and she was really struggling to connect with her COSA team and so we were role-playing different aspects and she was telling me how you know she was communicating to our COSA team that she was struggling to find those activities in her community where she wasn't going to run into the same old people and one of the COSA team members that recommended why don't you participate in Greenup Day it was just before Greenup Day and for someone who's never experienced Greenup Day to go by themselves and sign up and volunteer I think it would have landed better if the COSA team member had said why don't we go do Greenup Day together so that there is that integration because you know just recommending Greenup Day a woman who was formerly incarcerated the way she processed that was I have just given the state seven years of my life I'm not going to go pick up garbage for the state and give them one more day but that's not the point of Greenup Day it's community building and it's that reintegration piece yeah and I can tell you in first-hand experience there's no training for the COSA's in from someone either working in facility or that's recently reintegrated from being in facility so that would be a wonderful thing yeah how do you gain like resources for programs like these so there's a number of ways to gain resources Vermont Works for Women is supported by private donor dollars we also have philanthropic grants through foundations and then there's also the state contracts so we have a contract with Department of Corrections for our in-facility work and then our reentry services as well so it's a contract obviously as with contracts things are spelled out so in our current contract like we oversee the facility worker program and it's a way for the incarcerated individual to gain work experience also give back to the facility by doing some of the work that supports maintenance of the facility and then most importantly they're gaining those work skills and they are gaining that professional reference that's current so it doesn't look like there's this big huge gap from the time they were incarcerated on the resume because Vermont Works for Women because we do you know regular evaluations and performance reviews we address you know performance issues through our accountability action plan structure so that if there are issues that are going to jeopardize employment in the community we can start addressing some of those issues so are they consistently late or do they not communicate when they've got you know conflicting appointments for their work those sorts of things so you know these women you know these women well yes right and their citivism rate I mean it's a moving target but it's like 48% ish you know in the last 10-15 years for women in Vermont so thinking about the women you know and the ones that may be coming back into facility what do they need well I can say it's not a one size fits all definitely yeah nothing is nothing is and different women need different supports I think you know the prevalence of trauma is a big issue and not not getting the trauma addressed and resolved really leads to you know repeating the same patterns when they get released I think there's a lot of all or nothing thinking thought patterns that happen in the women so like the first obstacle they you know come up against they throw their hands up and that's it throw the baby out with the bathwater it's easier just go back and I can remember when I was transitioning off of reach-up that I felt that way often it seemed like for every gain I made personally the system knocked me back three so I can remember a time where the employer was working at offered me a raise and I didn't take it right away because I wanted to see what it was going to do to my benefits and long story short couldn't happen I accepted the raise anyway because I earned it and deserved it and that raise put sixty dollar forty dollars more a month in my net income cost me a hundred dollars in benefits mm-hmm and I think you know mm-hmm with my own experience I grew up middle-class ended up in poverty due to my addiction so I knew what I was working back towards and if I struggled and wanted to throw my hands up and say forget it it's easier to go back on the system quit my job how could those people with generational experiences understand that it was greener on the other side mm-hmm and that's what drives me today mm-hmm what are ways that the state can kind of cut back on those on those barriers good question it's challenging because a lot of the money comes from federal government which have their own mandates you know so like you know I'm just thinking of you know Medicaid policy like if you're incarcerated Medicaid can't cover any of your health care or therapy needs and so even if you have an existing therapist you were you know built a relationship with on the outside when Medicaid could cover you couldn't continue that during incarceration because your counselor can't bill Medicaid for you well you couldn't have it be paid through Medicaid true right there are other ways that we could step in and provide funding to continue that right like potentially I know there's a lot of overlapping issues with contractors and contracts and who holds the contract and you know I think I think the state tries to make sure that when they do offer contracts that there's not duplication in services so that the different contractors have very specific lanes you know which can be a good thing you know because you don't want to pay four different people to do the same job and it can also have some disadvantages because if there's only that one provider and there's not that relationship building with the client it's not very client centered so how do you balance that it's it's tough I wouldn't want to make the right right well let's let's remove it and yeah I should you know say right all that's convoluted bureaucratic decision-making for sure but if we know that women anyone coming out of facility going into facility where need that therapeutic help right what could we like just thinking vision-wise like what could we do I think vision-wise you know I'm really hopeful that upgrades in technology access will really open a lot of channels I know for example with through technology now and contractors we're able to do remote meetings with local providers so now they've got a face to the name they've started building that so when you get a higher ability appointment the Tuesday after your release at 2 o'clock you've already been on screen with who you're meeting with and I think that's very I think that goes a long way and I would love to see that expand I think opportunities for trainings bringing trainings in using technology I think there's a lot of areas there I would also love to see more like potentially augmented reality so there are certain things that for security reasons you know that would be dangerous to train someone and and through augmented reality I think there's a way to do some training without having the danger of say the power tools but using a plastic model wearing you know the equipment it looks like you're using a circular saw or a chop saw or a welder and I know that there are some states that are piloting and there are some companies who have developed the technology I know locally right up at Champlain College they do a lot with augmented reality and we Vermont works for women has met with them to see how can we incorporate this into you know like Rosie's girls or you know some other event that we're holding because it's a lot easier to bring a computer and some goggles than it is to bring a whole tool shed how do you think it is beneficial to the community through the broader community for these re- integration programs well I think it's really important because the majority of folks incarcerated are going to be released and who do we want coming into our community do we want someone who has been through the traditional setting of you know power control punishment or do we want someone returning who has been healed and valued and know that they've got a contribution to make to the community they're joining yes I talked about power tools let's talk about the old trailblazer trail that's one of your programs right yes so that's another you know therapeutic unwrapping is part of what is needed for all of us and also literally homes yes are needed right so I know that people are still in facility because there isn't secure housing that's true that's a that's a major barrier to release is approved housing for sure and then when they get the approved housing you know are there supports and resources in place for them to maintain the housing so they don't lose it which is a violation often which sends them back which contributes to the recidivism yeah so at one point trail was it trailblazers that was doing the building of homes was it that was out the program so it was an earlier rendition of what is now our trailblazer program and the women were at another facility that had the space but Vermont works for women led modular home where the incarcerated women were able to actually build modular homes that were then you know able to be sold and to buy materials for the next home so it was it was a great program when there's space and instructors and you know places for the houses to go where and so that was back in the old days back in the old day free my time yeah yeah and it's no longer because well the women moved facilities and especially being that where they are now at Chittenden regional the space is really limiting it just was not built for long-term capacity right right so that would be that's a funding that's a yeah I mean from from what I've learned is when Vermont shifted away from the county jail system and DOC was taking the detainers they built these smaller regional facilities to house the pre pre-trial detainees so until their their day in court happened and then there were larger facilities after sentencing but you know that was I think you know CRCF was built back in the mid 70s so things change you have new leaders they make different decisions yeah yeah well let's go on that train for a little bit like the practical needs that we all need right so housing yes so can you think of other things that we might be more aware of and trying to fund whether it's programs that help them build houses or just literal housing for reintegration I mean housing is and it's not just formally incarcerated folks it's everybody across the board so absolutely housing affordable housing supported subsidized you know I love the model of resident-owned communities if they're affordable and so like when I think about some of them some lot rents are like prohibitive plus if you've got a mortgage on top of it and so but with the resident-owned model you know there's investment every person living there has skin in the game and how they want their community to be transportation is a big issue in this state you know unless you live right here in the Burlington greater Burlington area it's challenging and when I think about you know all the appointments the women are required to attend and the buses only run at certain times I think it's very middle class to schedule an appointment with someone at one o'clock and you know get upset if they're 15 minutes late when their choice was to be 15 minutes late or 45 minutes early right right right yeah transportation yeah yeah wait I was thinking something when you went to the housing oh like things like therapy do you think we need resources to support things like that absolutely because you know the majority of incarcerated folks have experienced trauma I think being incarcerated doesn't doesn't give the environment to have true healing you can build awareness you can share knowledge but that that visceral somatic healing is really challenging in that environment when they're slamming doors radios going off and those sorts of things I'm a somatic life coach and so I really tried to get folks in tune with their bodies because their bodies really will then influence their thoughts and then their behaviors and ultimately their action and so I use an example because when I first learned about somatic practices I personally made more progress in 12 weeks than I had in 12 years of CBT and I think it's you know because CBT rightly so begins with the thoughts and the behaviors but if I'm standing in front of a mirror saying affirmations and I've still got the knot in my stomach and the lump in my throat can I really believe the affirmations I'm saying so I work with people to you know become aware of their energy so now today when I say affirmations I'm able to do it with an open heart and a feeling of joy in my body with more resources what do you think what up and we only have five minutes left or it's like three minutes left what do you think Vermont works for women could expand to do well I think I'm you know being able to expand statewide is really critical and we that's one of our that's part of our strategic plan is to be able to have staff that aren't just centralized here in Chittenden County and have you know staff stationed around the state so that even though the women are incarcerated in one area they're not released to one area so how can we have that continuity of services so that if I've been working with someone while they're incarcerated it doesn't just stop when they get released or I have to switch to only serving them by phone or virtually like I'm if I could have staff to pass off to and help support that warm handoff I think it would go a lot further and just really quickly just touching on because addiction is intersecting a lot so what's the state of you know supportive care in that way recovery housing in Vermont it's really scary right now I mean Vermont has no long-term treatment the only facilities in Vermont give you two weeks maybe four at the max and my own journey was 12 times at rehab and it wasn't that rehab was any different on the 12th time it's that I was finally different and so if there's only a handful of facilities you know I always wonder what if the rule was you only get 10 trips to rehab where would I be and I think it also helps me when folks do come back it's a clean slate with me because someone afforded that clean slate to me 12 times so as someone comes back three four however many they're gonna get that exact same service for me as if it was their first time and there's no there's not even housing there's there's two four-week programs but then there isn't even housing once you are gone from two to four weeks there's there's limited you there's limited I know v4 has a handful of houses Vermont foundation of recovery there's dismiss miss yep Jenna's promise and his promise awesome to you and his promise is a great model as a matter of fact they integrated a 13-week intensive trauma program so now everyone at Jenna's promise before they even do the employment search and stuff they do 13 weeks of trauma intensive outpatient and it's an organization at I don't know much about it but I'm just like it's exciting and filling it yeah but there's also been a number who have closed to Northern Lights house closed Liberty House closed tapestry closed so I think you know sustainable funding is challenging mm-hmm I think the way the philanthropic model is set up where we a number of agencies will serve the same population and they go after the same funding so I think the way it's structured in order for us to qualify for funding it's almost like we have to cannibalize participants from other agencies to keep that funding but then that other agency which has a place like we all have a place but the way the the structure is set up to apply and then that funding is awarded mm-hmm I think needs an overhaul yes and then peer support within facility I know they're you know piloting a program I think maybe in Rutland maybe for peer support in the recovery culture yeah yeah yes so is that some that's something also that we could be expanding absolutely happening in CRCF so CRCF has the open ears program which actually a new cohort is being trained as we speak so they go through a training and learn coaching models and methods like motivational interviewing techniques and it's total confidential so what they say to the open ears coach doesn't get back to DOC or security I just think it's a great model and I would love to see that expand as well right because there's not we both know there's not enough open ear mentors there's not enough open-ears mentors and you know you have to make sure it's the right person doing the work too I mean I think I think that's extremely challenging to balance you know getting the right people to do the work who aren't going to use their position and leverage and potentially because they have their own stuff that they haven't been given the space to work through exactly yeah yeah she goes back to the therapy that you were talking and in my coaching training that I've been taking I had instructors say oftentimes as life coaches where either one step ahead or one step behind clients where working with and I think that's true for any peer model yeah all righty well I know I know we're distracted but we will continue this yeah so much other thank you I'm just starting the conversation of what more could we be doing yeah I think I think absolutely having you know expanding awareness and sharing for those who don't have direct interaction with the legal system or maybe have never had a family member with addiction issues or you know criminal history I think you know just talking and having these conversations and putting it out there universal energy will take care of the rest yeah thank you thank you absolutely thank you yeah