 Gwydwch chi'n cyffredinol, a'r hyd yn ychwanegddol iaith o'r ôl iaith yn ein mwyaf i mi space, ac y gallwn ni'n adrodderu'r rhiffau. Rydw i'n meddwl esion i elu'r llwydd. Gwydwch chi'n cyffredinol i mi. Gwydwch chi'n cyffredinol i mi. Gweithio'r hyffredinol i mi. Mae hyffredinol i mi. Mae hyffredinol i mi innest. Hei, ddodd am ydych chi'n gwneud llawer o'ch byddwch chi'n gwneud bryd. Rydw i'n fawr i gydig i'r parol sy'n gwneud beth oedd yn gweithio i'r ffasgrol. I'm Naomi Polonski, wrth gwrs yw'r cyfnod hyn yn ei hwn i'r newhall arlaedd, ac yw'r co-cyrraedd yw Mor Ddsoltad o'r Ffraim, oedd i'r Harriet Loffler. O'r amlwg i'r gwaith i'r newhall arlaedd, yw'r cyfnod yma yn moddodd gweithio arlaedd o'r gweithio at Morioedd. peirwyr yn y syniad yw y 1990, yn rhoi'r hynny'n cael ei ddiwedd ar gyfer gweithlwn y gweithio cerddorol yn gallu Galeri ac mae'r ganddur ymlaen yn ymddi gydag ymddangos ymddi'r ganddur yn Ynys yw. Mord Solter yw unrhyw deall ar y cofnodd y gwir yn dod y cyfnodd y gallu'r ganddur ac mae'r cyfrif yn y ddweud o'r ymddangos ac mae'n gweld ymdweud o'r amddangos cyfrifio'r cyfrifio'r ganddur yn y gydag ddigon iaith yng Nghymru, a da i'r ffawr i ddechrau'r erbyn eich ffwrdd fawr. Solta hefyd hwnnw nid i'r fawr, y dywed. Mae'r fawr i gwaith i gael eu ddweud o'r ffordd ar gyfer y fawr. Mae'n iaith i ddweud i ddechrau. Rydyn ni'n ddweud i'r ddweud i ddechrau'r fawr i ddweud i ddweud i ddweud i ddweud i ddweud i ddweud erbyn eich fawr. 04.11.201318917178 13.11.2013198182 13.11.21.222 13.11.2013192 14.11.2013192 14.11.2013192 Mae'r ffordd y gallwn gwneud o fynd i gwneudio'r cyfnodau'r gweithio ar gyfer â'i wneud o'r pannu'r gyfer y dyfodol yn yw'r gennym ffasydau ym Mhotsaltas. Mae'r cyfnodau ffasydig, maen nhw'n ddim yn ddweud y cyfnodau, mae'r ddweudio, mae'r ddramatist, mae'r ddweud, mae'r ddweudio'r cyfnodau, mae'r ffasydd yn gwneud. mewn rhanusu'r yma. Mae'n rhaid i ddweud y dypa tywyr yw'n f Scotiaeth. Rwy'n dweud yw i gyrsio'r cwntaf i gyda'r perthynau ar y cwmaint ac mae'n gweithio'r rhai i gynyddiadau a'n fawr yn cyflawni Ac rwy'n diolch i gael deddylion parnafydd arnynt, mae'r Paul Mellon yng Nghymru. Gallwn y byddwag wedyn fydd yn fwy gydag nhw. Fyddwn yn ymgyrchai i ddim yn enrydd. Wrth gwrs, Naomi. Mae hi, mae'n Sir returner, rynnodd yn dyfodol yn y Paul Mellon yng Nghymru gan ddiweddog ynghylch yn yr Arddur.bwyneb rydyn wneud hynny i'r ystafell memor ac mae'n ddweud am yr Paul Mellon. Dwi'w wneud i ar gyfer'r Sengnet,rywio ychydigol yn gallu chyreityno i'r Sengnet llinogiach, a'r Centru Rheserdydd, i gyflawni'r Lundain a'r ffordd i ymddangos y Unigol. Rwy'n fynd i'ch gael ymddangos ar hyn o ddau brithysgol a'r architektur, a rhaid i'ch gaelio gael i gael eich hystryd ac i'r gael i'ch gael i'ch gael i gael i'r gael i'ch gael i'ch gael i'ch gael i eich gael i'ch gael i'ch gael i'ch gael i'ch gael. One of the ways we do that is by collaborating on events such as this one, which bring people together to share ideas. Maud Salter was an artist and a thinker who was deeply invested in what she described in one of her texts as the call and response of making, exhibiting, displaying, writing and debating about art's role in the world and about making histories visible. And this display, organised by the curators of the New or Whole art collection, offers us a moment of gathering and reflection. And I really want to thank Naomi Polonskin, the team, all the team and especially the tech team at Murray Edwards for making today's events happen. And the Paul Mellon Centre's events manager, Shauna Blanchfield, for all her work on planning the logistics of holding a live hybrid event. And just that way to the beginning shows that this is some new territory for us as we test out the technology. And we really want to welcome those of you who are here in person with us. It's absolutely brilliant to have so many people in a room together. And to those of you who are watching virtually, again, welcome to you. Thank you for your support. Thank you for joining us. And we hope that you'll join by posing questions in the Q&A session as well. We can take questions from in the room and from outside the room. So, do join in with the conversation today. Now, I want to introduce our chair to you, Jolaine Tradros, who will be chairing the panel discussion for the rest of the afternoon. As many of you will know, she's the Chief Executive of DAX, a Knopf of Profit Visual Arts Rights Management Organisation, and is the co-director of the Arts360 Foundation, which she established in 2016 with Mark War. She's got many other accolades, but like all our speakers today, their biographies are also on our events page, so you can read about their amazing careers and what they do by having a look at that. So, without further ado, I'm going to hand over to Jolaine and say thank you to you and all our panel, and enjoy the rest of the afternoon. Hi. Welcome, everybody, and thank you, Naomi and Sarah, for convening this very special conversation today on Mord Sulta. I'd also like to thank Sean and the brilliant tech team here at Mereddards College, who've done such a fabulous job. It's wonderful to see Mord Sulta's Zabat out. We were just talking earlier, some of us haven't seen that work for three decades, and I've been very excited to see the resurgence of interest and engagement with Mord's work in recent years. I'd like to pay tribute to the estate of Mord Sulta, but also to all the artists, curators and art historians who've kept the fire lit, championing Mord's work and her significance as an artist, writer, curator, poet, and so many other things, as Naomi said. The history of art, as we know, is full of absences, and it requires persistence and effort to ensure that artists of colour and women artists, in particular, are part of our shared cultural history and memory. And if you haven't already done so, I urge you all to go and see the wonderful exhibition, Lumen, by another important artist, Shatipa Biswas, who's with us here today, which is at Cattles Y Yard. It's a really fabulous show. One of the reasons that Mord Sulta speaks so powerfully and eloquently to new generations of artists, curators and audiences is, I think, because she was so far ahead of her time in addressing the absences and illusions in our shared culture and, in particular, the glaring absence of black women from regimes of representation in the historical record. Mord spoke about how she was fascinated, even haunted by the idea of disappearance and the disappeared. And I just want to read you something that she wrote. The whole notion of the disappeared, I think, is something that runs through my work. I'm very interested in absence and presence in the way that particularly black women's experience and black women's contribution to culture is so often erased and marginalised. So that it's important for me as an individual and obviously as a black woman artist to put black women back in the centre of the frame, both literally within the photographic image but also within the cultural institutions where our work operates. Although she wouldn't have expressed herself in these terms by the late 1980s, Mord was decolonising the discipline of art history, the archive and the museum making works that are complex, multi-layered and compellingly beautiful. Works which also bring back into the central frame black women's creativity and the histories she would have called them her stories and experiences of black women. One of my earliest pieces of writing was on Mord Sulta's series called Hysteria, which she made in 1991, not long after the Zabat series that are on exhibition here. I was commissioned by Mark Seeley, director of Autographs, the Association of Black Photographers to write a review of Hysteria. Mord had been a Mo Mark Fellow at Tate Liverpool between 1990 and 1991 and the Touring Exhibition of Hysteria started at Tate Liverpool in August 1991. It was an installation made up of photographic prints, marble plaques, scripted narrative and audio recording and it tells the story of a 19th century black woman artist who sails from the Americas to Europe to seek fame and fortune as a sculptor in Rome. But having achieved a successful career, she disappears. It's a fictional tale based on fragments of the true life story of Edmonia Lewis, a successful artist who lived and worked around this period. And the review I wrote was called the case of the disappearing black woman artist. This exhibition and this afternoon's conversation continues a vital process of redressing the absences and allitions of in-art history, bringing Mord's Ulta back into the centre of the frame and I'm really delighted that we've got four amazing women on the panel this afternoon and I'm very excited to hear their presentations. First of all Laura Castagnini is a curator and writer interested in the histories of feminism and their current articulations especially as they intersect with the politics of secularity and race and their expression in modern contemporary art and Laura's just been appointed as curator of the Australian centre for the moving image in Melbourne which is wonderful. Congratulations Laura. Laura's admired Ulta's work since she was introduced to it many years ago by artists of her own generation including Evan. As a curator she worked on Tate's first acquisition of Mord's work, the major series Le Bijoux in London last year. Next we'll hear from Evan Effacoia who is a London UK based artist, educator and energy worker who through sound, text, video and performance places demands on existing systems and institutions of power to re-centre and prioritise the experience and voice of those previously marginalised. Evan finds great refuge in the breadth of practice that Mord has left behind in particular the SAFI a token of remembrance the viewer leaves with after viewing an artwork has been an inspiration for their own investigations into a collectively orientated art practice. Next we'll hear from Marcia Michael who's multidisciplinary practice centres on the reconstruction of the Black Family archive. Marcia injects current discourses of the personal that speak about and to the black presence in Britain. Marcia does so within a black feminist intergenerational and decolonial visuality that pertains to her own diasporic experience and that of her ancestors. Marcia identifies with Mord as an artist who returned to search for their heritage in places of remembrance. She too has searched the same landscapes for words and memories of four mothers that keep on returning. Dion Sparks is a London based artist whose painting practice explores abstraction and the transformation of materials to create objects of contemplation. Dion met Mord while studying on the BA Fine Art and John Mord's University in the late 1980s and Mord later invited Dion to show work in exhibitions such as passion contemporary black women's creativity of the African diaspora. They also worked together for a short time as part of the feminist arts news collective following her graduation Mord invited Dion to model for Zabbat in which she represented Erato, the muse of lyric poetry. So without further ado, Laura. Dion, sorry, it's first up. Forgive me. So lovely to see you all. Good afternoon, my name is Dion Sparks as we've just said. I'm an artist, I'm a teacher and also, as you heard, a sitter for Zabbat. I'd just like to share some brief thoughts. They're quite personal, I guess, this afternoon. I'm going to talk a little bit about some of my memories of Mord, my perspective as a sitter and just a little bit about her legacy and her impact on myself, my work and the wider world. I'll start with some of my memories and as I was invited to this panel I started to think about what kind of words come up when I think of her and the sorts of things that come to mind are formidable, clever, caring, legacy, history, style, prolific, multifaceted, bold, stature, inspiring, daring, commitment, sharp, wit, self-aware, ambition, strategic. And I think what I'm trying to just bring to mind there is just what a formidable, self-aware, powerful artist Mord Sulta was. I've shared this with some of the panel that when you were with her you really had a sense that you had to raise your game. She was incredibly strategic. I think we've heard that a little bit just in the introduction. She had an incredible sense of history in her place in it. She had a lot of foresight in how to work with organisations and individuals to bring her work into the world and the work of other black women. In particular, Zabat is a fantastic example of that. As you know, she worked with Rothschild Gallery to create this work and it was the 150th birth of photography. So a very timely piece of work. As you heard, I've met Mord in the late 80s and there was a period in that time where we spent a little bit of time together. I'm just going to focus a little bit on Zabat in particular. There were a number of projects we worked on but in Zabat she invited me to work to sit as a sitter but also to work as an assistant on that project. What I noticed when I assisted her I just finished my degree so it was a fantastic opportunity for me. We worked in the studio. She was a great collaborator. She worked with somebody reporting her technically with the camera. I remember the bane of Hymud being there at certain points but she had an incredible clarity and vision around what she was doing. It had huge scope and ambition. I don't recall lots of conversation about what to do how to prepare but I do recall she asked us to bring some clothes and an object that meant something to us. You're not sharing the slides, are you? I'm not sure where the clicker is. Here it is, sorry. I think we should put the slides up. You can see what we've seen in the exhibition this afternoon. The portrait here of Mord and this one here of myself. I did have the mask on earlier so it wasn't quite clear but it is me, I promise. You'll notice that the clothes are my own. She asked us to bring in things. They're ordinary clothes nothing particularly. They're everyday clothes that my jewellery, the fabric that somebody gave me a friend and Mord gave me the drum and asked me to pose with that. I noticed when she was working that there was a very careful attention to detail the way that she set up the lighting, the backdrops and so on. Perhaps when we come to the panel discussion we could talk a little bit more about the self-portrait because I remember that I was I think we were alone in the studio on that day and obviously she needed a lot of guidance or help, physical help, around making that so perhaps we can talk about that. But my reflections when I look at this work and think about this work is the challenge that she made to the role of the muse and the model and interesting that when she selected the sit-ins some of them were obviously very well known Alice Walker an incredible public figure but others like myself and Delta Street we were just newly graduated not well known but she presented us all at the same level so there was a certain collective equality there and I do find it quite incredible to think about and reflect on that she has somehow immortalised us and I don't think I quite understood that at the time but now that I recognise it's in public collections you realise that you've been put in the history books so speaking to the emissions that we were talking about before this is quite a special privilege and also the beauty of the images the care, the colour, the composition the textures and the richness of those images are really powerful and she was also very aware of how to get her work into public collections so it was interesting to me that she donated this to this collection here which obviously allows it to be taken care of for the future and when I came to re-read the artist's book that accompanies the exhibition so it's about the poetics of the family tree I found it to be an incredibly rich poetic document it reads almost like a mix of time travel a sort of memory a reimagining it's a sort of historic and almost like a poetic longing there's a lot of longing in that piece I found and I'll just quote from her here she ends with this kind of cryptic message she says and so we return to the end of this tale you might be desirous of a few answers well, I myself have one question what happened to the missing others and if you don't know why should I tell you so I found that a really powerful cryptic moored message I'll just finish on a little bit on her legacy and impact on my own work and myself and some of the messages I think I recall one of the things she would say a lot is you just have to keep going you know as a black woman artist you have to keep going and actually she said it gets harder, not easier that's something I heard her reflect on several times that you know that journey gets more challenging but she also emphasised that you're not alone hers was not an individualistic endeavour it was very much part of a kind of collective so a sense that you're not the first of people before you there's a long history it's that you're part of a continuum you're part of a collective in the present but also the future that was a very important message that I took but also that your particular work is very important and that you had to value it and that you were making a valuable contribution and these are some works from my work at the time it feels very old this work now it's 30 years ago it's at the same sort of period it was actually made a bit before the bat but what was interesting I think some of the parallels is a some of the parallels were about looking back or looking into the future and also the sort of physically putting yourself centre stage so those sort of photographic screens in textiles are obviously self portraits and currently I'm actually doing an MA painting at the Royal College of Art and I'm returning to the bat actually I'm doing a piece that's about a kind of homage to to that work so it's still leaving its legacy Maude also understood the importance of organising and networking this was very important and documenting I think this you know she had incredible force to understand these are some of the things when I looked back through my files the sort of things I found in my archive this exhibition that I was very honoured to take part in that she invited to me to passion and these are some of the documents around that so very often you know there might have been exhibitions but there was nothing nothing physical and tangible this is a pre-digital age and so it's wonderful that the art historian for example Deborah Cherry as people have mentioned are able to go back to these archives and that she left us that kind of trail and as Lubaina Hymid said I'm just quoting a little bit from passion which is this book that Maude edited a very important book I also contributed an essay here and Maude sorry Lubaina Hymid writes here in her essay mapping a decade of black women artists 1890 1980 to 90 she writes it's been depressing not to have been immortalised in the coffee table book it has forced some of us into becoming in being publishers and clearly Maude took up that mantle and understood the importance of documentation we're clearly in a new moment now I'll just leave it on that for a moment we're clearly in a new moment there's still a lot to do a lot of work but we can now enjoy major exhibitions such as the one coming up by Lubaina Hymid at the Tate or we are now being represented by Sonya Boyce at the Venice Biennale it's credit to those artists and we all celebrate that and enjoy this progress but I do feel some of the goal does rub back on to Maude and this is part of her legacy and actually just a little note that she wrote to me when I graduated and I gained a first class degree and actually she had contributed to my degree as I interviewed her at the Tate and in the note she wrote congratulations but I do recognise that some of the gold rubs back on us all so she kind of recognised her own contribution there and she did something extraordinary with her life I think and she really just kept going that was the amazing thing I just want to finish I think with a little quote from Zabat and this is one of her greatest gifts I think this is a quote from Maude Salter if you need to see yourself and your beauty you can look in a mirror thank you Alen there so it's really nice to be here can you hear me fine straight a second can you hear me now? Thanks to you and that was just amazing and I'm feeling the connections through what I'm about to say so through her use of words and pictures of others as a woman who returned to search and claim her heritage to me Maude was a time traveller I do believe that if she was alive today today would never have been there today that black artists are seeing living and being in today would have happened a long time ago as an artist I turned to Maude for her work and her maternal passion to use the personal to reclaim the history making everything that is done by black people especially mothering political over and over she used her body and her voice to preach about the others for others for whom she searched for and lived because of her forementioned foresight as seen in the black muses she got in front of the camera is proof of her time travelling capabilities and yet it is not to her images that I turn as a photographer it's to her writing it's her ability to return to remember and to reclaim that which she knows she must not just a body but a voice in order to speak their truth into existence I'm going to read Maude's poem from the standpoint as I am in a black woman as I do so I will acknowledge the lengths that her spirit has travelled to be able to write those words that I can speak I will then read my own poem ain't I a black woman written is a part but made through a similar reclamation of place body and maternal yearning for our ancestral bodies and as I read these poems I ask you to ponder on the many ways in which her words become mine and then I hope that my words become embedded in yours for in speaking a language whose words were constructed in the same timeline as the oppressor's language we as in all of us make ourselves time travellers and even dare I say shapeshifters alternating between their worlds and worlds it is through our powerful imagination that enables the historic black and brown bodies to give them a voice a voice they have always had therefore when we speak within our works when I speak here now I speak in uniform with them present with me always I continue to speak their vocabulary which is always in conversation with each other because over time again they tell me they show me that they spoke to each other with love black love more has shown me the importance of claiming their words in those places when she moved when she went to Africa and photographed the slave ports in Gambia in her series Sphinx in my own search for my maternal ancestors the same I returned I learnt I embodied I speak from their memory always as I journeyed to Jamaica to retrieve through an embodied imagination the absences of my foremothers moulds wailing not to her but it's a cry it's a cry to intercede they beg they yearn for an intercession for our bodies and our minds our stories that have to be retold I have come to understand as I gaze at black and brown faces who sit among the audience here who sit in my heart in my memory, in my mind whose presence have always been here did you get me I've always been here on this earth in the mythological narratives I sense the elements of strength, beauty and tradition in Maud's muses in Naamanham muses there is an ancestral kinship that is formed where channels of communication are created by blood but also in blood to be able to speak words through the timeline through bodies that resemble my own perhaps within Alice Walker's womanist expressions that is to reveal and share the intergenerational strengths and relations with the ways in which women's love culture, agency and commitment connect and inspire to the well-being of all the people means that I too am a time traveller words heard today were remembered yesterday and words told tomorrow that hit your heart today are words that have travelled through because of love as I read as a black woman by Maud Sorter I asked you to take note of her words and then of my own as a black woman the bearing of my child is a political act I have been mounted in rape bred from like cattle mined for my fecundity I have been denied abortion denied contraception denied my freedom to choose I have been subjected to abortion injected with contraception sterilised without my consent I have borne witness to the murderers of my children by the clan, the front the state I have borne sons hung for rape for looking at a white girl I have borne daughters shot for being liberationist as a black woman I have taken the power to choose to bear a black child a political act as a black woman every act is a political act every act is a political act as a black woman the personal is political holds no empty rhetoric ain't I a black woman no right to be angry no right to cry no right to hold your hand or talk to you no right to see you or call you my own I never had the right to call you I chose I'm a nigger and that means everything to your father he treated me just like I was a slave I was a slave and then he got his friends to do the same the colour of my skin was betrayed by the fullness of my belly twice more if I had stayed I ran truth be told if I stayed I would have died he would have killed me and told them that I took my own life does that sound familiar but am I not dead now without you ain't I a woman to have feelings and a soul ain't I a woman that I should know my children, my kin my life I wish you know I wish you could know what it means to be me does my life matter does my black life matter ain't I a woman how I wish I could be free how I wish you could be free he tried like the previous master to make me feel as though I could only live my life because of him for a moment he was right my mind had been twisted he takes away my children, my child so that I no longer feel like a woman human like living and then he tells them my children he tells them that their black skin wears the trauma of their mother's ancestors you're right their black skin wears the trauma of my ancestors my kinky hair your afro hair that I pass on to you means I've passed on other things too memories breathe don't forget the sky remember the eyes remembering is everything tell everyone who has ears to hear to hear tell them in ways they will understand sing show your body let them touch the history that is yours it is yours they want me to wait until slavery is over but I have been to the future I have seen what not remembering does I have witnessed what forgetting is I cannot wait any longer I cannot wait until this slavery is over it is never over the names just change women, children mothers, daughters brothers, fathers have we not suffered have we not suffered have we not suffered our bodies our minds traumatised it once in your DNA they now tell us let's not forget who I am who am I I am your mother I am a woman and my skin is black like yours my children thank you how to how to follow on from that well thank you Marcia and Dion honestly yeah feeling a lot of things right now okay let me get myself together right wow yeah I mean thank you for this invitation to be here to talk a little bit about the yeah the huge impact that Maud Soltar has had on her practice today and really does continue to have and what I'm offering and sharing today is yeah a few reflections, a few encounters on yeah the way that her impact the way that her practice has impacted the way that I work and yeah has really played a huge part in where I am and all that I am able to offer to the world and I wanted to kind of touch on a couple of the words a couple of terms that have really stayed with me that I came to know about through her work and one of those is car which is a spirit of resistance and then the safi which is a token of remembrance that the viewer leaves with after viewing an artwork and both of these terms are terms that I would say really weave into my own practice and yeah I will elaborate about that as I go on and so here is a letter that I wrote as part of a project that I was involved in with a group I used to and still do in some way organised with called Collective Creativity and we were we came together around 2013 having felt really failed by our arts education in various ways and we came together as queer black and people of colour to kind of look at and try and address in our own way these absences and we would informally me and just we were trying to piece together the histories that we knew were there but for some reason weren't visible and I'm just going to read a little quote from a publication that we put together called Surviving Art School which was in collaboration with Nottingham Contemporary around 2015 or 16 so upon discovering artists like Maud Salter Claudette Johnson Shithepa Biswas Sonia Boyce Labena Hameed Zerina Bimgy Chyla Kamari Berman Ingrid Pollard Palomi Desai we realised that these are still knowing their work cements a sense of history of knowing that there were artists in the 80s at the height of race politics making subversive critical work about identity you have a legacy that is yours that you can refer to it's more than representation it's seeing people who reflect your own story in those big glossy art books people who have names like yours it gives a sense of connection rather than a sense of constant loss and mourning which is what living in a neocolonial hetra-patriarchal world feels like and one of the things that we did as part of this project was we held a workshop and one of the activities was to write a letter to a future younger self and what you can see here is the letter that I wrote as part of that activity I'm going to read it now a letter to a future younger self Dear Evan I'm writing this to let you know about a book I wish I'd known about when I was studying at Winchester it's called Passion Discourses on Black Women's Creativity I think if you'd known about it then you wouldn't have felt so lonely you would in a sense because you would have still been surrounded by middle class whiteness but at least you would have known that artists with passion, energy and drive who were coming from a similar place as you existed you would have learnt about the amazing work of artists such as Labena Hamed and Ingrid Pollard you were already aware of Maud Salter because of the circus series but you didn't know about the movement they had created the pivotal bringing together and organizing of black female artists work it would have helped you to hear about their struggles and persistence and it will help you to keep going when you feel like you can't anymore with love Evan, a future you and then shortly after this I also went on to really write about Maud and some of her work as part of my MA thesis paper this was around 2015 and again I'm kind of reflecting on an encounter with passion because at that time I was finding it very hard to find a copy thankfully I do have one now but at that time it was proving tricky and this thesis was actually kind of in a similar way to the thin black lines book the exhibition catalogue that went with the exhibition I wrote it as a series of letters so I'm writing to this figure Abiola I've been trying to find a copy of passion discourses on black women's creativity to send you it's proving challenging the book first published in 1990 is out of print and not widely stocked in art libraries across the country to me it's just as crucial a text as ways of seeing or mythologies what do we do when the books we need to read are not in our libraries how do we find them and how do they find us and it's in passion that I first read poems from the poetics of a family tree which was Mord's second volume of poetry published in 1989 and it was through that text that I came to know about this term car and I'm going to read just a short extract from the poem full circle where you start to where this car the essence of it starts to reveal itself whatever fragment you find preserve, recognise yourself heritage, responsibility worth more precious than gold weights the spirit of car and then another extract from my thesis paper car the spirit of resistance permeates the following text car is a term I came to learn of through the work of Lubaina Hamed and Mord Salter in the catalogue for the exhibition new robes from our shulun by Lubaina Hamed Mord Salter writes that the artwork would often come back devoid of small pieces of card or wool or drawing pins never vandalised, just depleted it's nice to think that people take small tokens as safis, tokens of remembrance so Salter takes the gesture enacted by the viewer as an act of solidarity friendship even a sign that the work is made to be shared as a collective endeavour and across the prolific output of collaborative exhibitions magazine articles and catalogue essays the relationship between the pair of artists is made visible the traces of friendship that I find encouraging in my own pursuit of a de-individualising art practice is there something specific in an artwork made between and for friends distinct from the increasingly market driven archetypal subject-object orientation that is very common to art making these days there had not previously existed spaces for black women to show their art on their own terms so writing in a different time 2015 now 2021 I wonder what we should take from these practices what we should carry with us moving forward and what we need to do differently for since working with collective creativity which was very much about redressing the imbalance within our own relationship to art history I've got on to be part of a number of other different collectives and more recently in 2018 I went on to establish black obsidian sound system with a number of peers working in art, film and sound and similarly in the way that Maude worked and collaborated with her peers it was a marginal status that brought us together and in our individual togetherness we have everything we need we become abundant and with boss the sound system is our sacred object our totem, our symbol of our collective struggles and desire for more and the itinerant nature of the system means that we can transform any space into one where we can feel a sense of belonging and I'm going to return to the essence of car this time with an extract from historical objects again in sabat poetics of a family tree slavery days and here I find you still on the plantation now differently guised yet still a bondage and freedom, freedom has an empty call when I see you still chained to their supremacist belief in themselves they cannot be allowed any longer to rewrite our experience call it marxist or feminist history or history no longer no more car is rising car is rising listen listen you can hear her call for car is rising car is rising here come here her call and you know I really wanted to understand you know where this word car originates and you know I've since come to learn that it is an ancient commission term now known as Egypt and yeah it's this idea of a universal spirit that resides in each and every one of us and in the hieroglyphic symbol it's represented as a pair of open arms held upwards it's the inner consciousness that is at the root of our power and I've been really galvanised by this idea by this idea of a spirit of car within my own practice and it's something that I do grip to a great inspiration from and I can see how that spirit, that energy really does permeate the Zabat series the photographic series that we are here and is being exhibited currently at this moment and it was really a great honour and a privilege to be able to see the whole series in the flesh for the first time and it was a I was able to really transform my experience and my understanding of those works by actually seeing them in the flesh and I'm also really interested in the images of course but also the text that Maude wrote about these works because the Zabat is a sacred dance it's an occasion of power and it's a black woman's right of passage and these words and the images call to mind for me has been talked about the importance of seeing oneself as part of something greater, as part of a lineage as part of an ancestry and also for me also there's something in the works that that decision I think to draw from the muse the mythology that we are so familiar with but it's a familiarity that at least for me I always saw as outside of me and somehow there's this renegotiation of where I can sit within a frame and the polyimah the portrait of Dr Yousai Barnwell was a work that today I spent a lot of time with because actually I could really see herself I could really see her in me the wide face the dark skin and in that moment I felt powerful I felt a sense of belonging and that really does I don't have words for it I really don't but there's just something really really special about that and that kind of encounter that one can have with an artwork that isn't the way it isn't this intellectualising of it but just really accounts for the affect the embodied experience that one can have when one engages and interacts with a work and I actually just wanted to end with a quote that I found by Maud as she was reflecting on this series compared to the composition of the stars a photograph is no big deal any fixation of evidence or providence or the like is but nothing compared to the fact that we can take flight through the heavens and visit each other just when we like and for me that really kind of speaks to something actually Marcia said around time travel Maud very much was and in some way very much still is a time traveller and again that's something that really I draw a lot of strength from in my own practice Is that better? I haven't done an in-person thing for such a long time I don't know how to do anything I just wanted to start by saying thank you for having me here what an amazing line-up it feels like a real honour to be part of I'm going to do a sort of overview or sort of art historical perspective to contextualise some of the work I'm going to speak specifically about this work Calliope which you would have seen in the exhibition which is a self-portrait of Maud as Jendeval Maud so I'm a bit nervous Jendeval haunted Maud's practice for over a decade as she says here her ongoing visual fascination with Jendeval began in 1988 with the response to the Nadar photograph captioned unknown woman at me, willing me to give her a name an identity, a voice so for over a decade I've been image making with her in mind from Calliope in Zabat to Lebesu in 2002 so Jendeval was the little known romantic companion and muse of Baudela the French poet and she was born in Haiti with a date that was unknown actress and dancer of mixed French and African ancestry she was reportedly the granddaughter of an enslaved woman from Guinea and West Africa sent by her owners to France to work in a brothel she met the young Baudelaire in 1942 when she was part of a sort of amateur dance performance and she was with him for 25 years that relationship has been considered the most important in his life and she was a muse for a lot of his work in particular she was a muse in a very sort of exoticised way she was his black venus and in particular we'll come to that a little bit later in this talk and I think what's interesting about the way that Maud brings Jendeval in is it's through a sort of haunting of herself so she's embodying Jendeval in this in this work in particular as you can see she's even got the sort of the robe as well but has a very different expression looking away from the camera and also having the camera on the table in front of her so I wanted to show you some of the images that she makes after Kelly Opie who as you would have seen was the muse of poetry and as you would have seen there was nine different muses in all the different I can hear myself okay yeah thanks so this is Jendeval the original Nadal photograph actually I should maybe speak a little bit about that photograph as you would have seen it's been titled Unknown Woman and it's debated whether it was indeed actually Jendeval there are images of Jendeval which are doodles from Baudelaire but this is something that when Maud found this image she was really captivated by and in particular she was captivated by this sense of sort of what the image can do I might read this quote from her that I really like she says quote who is this Jendeval a beautiful black woman who inspired Baudelaire to write some of the finest poetry miracles of language which explore her sensuality sexuality and ethnicity observed by the poet as the western world stood on the cusp of modernity itself and therein lies the crisis point for the vast contradictions in how she is perceived and portrayed and I think that idea of the crisis point in the history of photography is something that Maud's work looks at again at one point that photography is not a tool it's a weapon and I think that sort of comes back again and again this is a work that she made in 94 which are these really small collages which are actually collaged directly on to the back of a book about Manet so it's sort of an act of graffiti as well as inserting Jendeval into these images and then the last work that she made was this major work called Lebeshu which is now on three of the works are now on display at Tate Britain in the 60 years exhibition and in a way I think that she takes what she does in Calliope and expands it out into this much bigger exploration of who Jendeval is the title Lebeshu is relates to a poem by Baudelaire which he writes my beloved was naked and knowing my heart's desire had kept only her sonorous jewels on whose rich splendor gave her the triumphant air that Moorish slave women have on their happy days so rather than depicting Jendeval naked with only her jewels on Maud is representing her with an array of different emotions with a subjectivity and also she's very much clothed and in control I think the other thing to mention about this work is actually I'll talk a little bit about the format so these are Polaroids they were made with the giant Polaroid the 20x24 which is the biggest Polaroid camera in the world there's only 7 of these in existence 1kg and this one was owned by the Sheck photographer Jean Hisneau who travelled with it from Czech Republic to Salta Studio in Edinburgh and it was sort of interesting working on the acquisition of this work for Tate because they are Polaroids they're really light sensitive and they're sort of going to be shown for one month every year which means that most displays are about six months so if you show the work at one of the Tate sites for one exhibition it's out of action for six years which it's a very I don't know, I think thinking about this idea of disappearance and the fragility of the photograph but also Black Women's History I think it's almost sort of ironic that this work is so difficult to display and to store and to keep but the other thing that's sort of interesting about this work is that way that she moves and I'm going to quote here Deborah Cherry who's argued that there is a clear shift in focus from the trajectory of Salta's engagement with this subject of Dendeval she says by this point the exhilaration and animation of Zabat has vanished Zabal is silent, unspeaking mute and Salta herself has talked about this so in the catalogue she says I reconfigure myself as Dendeval not as previously in Zabat as an active muse and artist but in a funk of postmuseum and so the work then led to this major group exhibition that Maud put on at the National Gallery Scotland in Edinburgh in which she presented her own work of herself as Dendeval with possible appearances of Dendeval throughout history so she's got she loaned works by Manet and Courbet this is in 2003 at the National Gallery and surprisingly I haven't been able to find that much information about this this exhibition considering I don't know I find it a really exciting sort of huge undertaking and for it, yeah but obviously it was this subject has been looked at in the Black Models exhibition that was in Paris a couple of years ago so I think anyway that's sort of future research I just wanted to also mention where I'm sort of going next with this I'm really interested in thinking about Maud's practice Dendeval was apparently bisexual according to the who's who in gay and lesbian history and I've started reading now the Hopkinsons, the Salt Roads which I'm not sure if anyone else on the panel has read but so beautiful and so it's talking about maybe I won't go into the novel but it's Dendeval is one of the characters in the book and she's having an affair and it's just really beautiful in the way that it's written but also I've started looking at some of Maud's own writing and I found an article she wrote about black lesbian she uses black lesbian in one word black lesbian characters in film which she wrote in 1986 which is quite early and that's really one of the only times where she actively uses that expression that identity about herself which I think is really interesting especially considering that the Béju series was very much framed in the book as a reenactment of or a sort of almost a quering of the idea of the muse she's having a lot of trouble with this she says sorry since childhood I have served as muse to painters poets, photographers and musicians sometimes unwittingly usually with some element of collaboration most notably I feature in two works in public collections The Bane of Hermes between the two balance and five I didn't ask to be in these pictures I didn't consciously sit for them but somehow I inhabit them it is somehow that I am interested in when exploring notions of the muse and what it means as a woman artist to take a female subject and retrospectively what it means to serve as catalyst for ideas and representations in the work of others I might just leave it there I feel like I'm sort of throwing lots of information at you but maybe we can come back to some of this Thank you so much Just an extraordinary presentation and a tsunami of ideas and reflections on more sorter I really want this to have an opportunity to bring everyone into the conversation so I'm just going to indulge myself in one question before we open it up and there were lots of connections between what you were all saying I felt and for one thing I think three words you use, Marcia return, remember, reclaim sums it up for me you know Dionne you were talking about the importance of that relationship in a way between an older artist and a younger artist and those cycles of influence and inspiration and support and you were talking about Laura about the inspiration of Jean Duval the way that Maud is like a detective rooting through images and evidence to kind of find she knows these black women exist in the history gay black women exist in the history and she goes out to find them and reclaim them and then you spoke so beautifully about that the importance of understanding who has come before and being an artist knowing that there have been antecedent of that sense of lineage and connection and I think those two elements of Ca and Safi of resistance and remembrance are things that also were themes in what all of you were returning and reclaiming in Wardsworth I wondered if Evan you could reflect first about this idea of returning and reclaiming Yeah I mean I guess something I didn't go too deeply into for time but for me the archival investigation has been a big part of my work and my journey in coming to know and understand because I did come out of my BA with a real sense of an absence like I said of practices that really spoke to where I came from and so in moving back to London in 2010 I was able to really start to go into the archives the Stuart Hall Library the African and Asian Visual Arts Archive at Chelsea and a little bit later around 2013 the Making Histories Visible Archive and that really became part of my journey to understanding and redressing and remembering because I had this sense that the work was there the practices were there but somehow they just weren't part of my arts education and so I went on that investigating the investigatory process of trying to figure it all out and then that's when collective creativity came together and we started to do that work together and there really was something in that process being again a collective one because even being in the archive on your own and then finding these things it's like you want somebody to be able to share that with and doing that work and also as part of the process of doing that work I was also able to build connections with a lot of the artists as well who are very much still practising and up to really amazing things and so it became that process of looking back but also being very much in the present and in that process I was able to rather than I often come back to something Labena says there is no need to reinvent the wheel and actually it was only because of all the archival work that I've done and been able to build from that I have this really great foundation and I've had a really great foundation to build from what I can to also involve others in that process and from then I can imagine other kinds of possibilities and ways of working and working collaboratively and collectively and I think for me the archive has played a big part in that because we have the internet you can just search and find things and it's all there and it's all documented but the reality is that that history is fragile and precarious and it needs to be preserved, republished brought back to the surface as a continuous struggle of remembering and even something like with passion I would love to see it republished I would love to see some kind of I made a note of that for a while because it does speak to a moment in time that actually there is still a lot to glean and learn from and yeah I've done reading groups and stuff with it and it's really kind of impacted younger artists' practices in really big ways and so I think there was also this like you say it's like how do we also ensure that these fragile ephemeral documents can also kind of continue to proliferate and can also be made accessible in some way because archives aren't always accessible unless you have some kind of institutional affiliation so that's also something that I've been thinking through in my practice is also how does the material become activated in other contexts as well Well the Art360 Foundation is working with Maud Sorter's Estate to organise the archive and I think the idea of republishing passion is something that we need to talk to the estate about and think about how we could bring that back in circulation I'll just tell you that the artist Lauren Craig is looking at passion as well at the moment I don't know if you've spoken to her but yeah she's working on it at a very sort of early curatorial stage but yeah I should talk to her Dion I wonder if you could talk as well about returning to Zaba and it right at the end it was quite tantalising I wonder if you could say a bit about what you're doing and how you're returning to Zaba in your practice I mean it's in very early stages so it's sometimes difficult to talk about work when it's not fully formed but my work has changed I mean you saw a little bit of it there but I'm now working more with abstraction actually it's interesting in the sort of British context I'm not sure I know many other black women artists who aren't working I mean there are lots in America if you look at Mark Bradford there's a certain language that's developed there that isn't echoed here I don't know probably I need to do my research but actually in exploring abstraction I still feel the need to anchor it in some sort of discourse with the continuum that we've been talking about it's always been a strange struggle actually for me because even back then I was making abstract work but actually it was almost not very cool to make abstract work then it was a bit of a no-no it was a bit like actually we need to there needs to be an aspect of representation I am answering your question and it's just coming round in a circle and so that sort of idea of being visible physically and the idea of figuration and being in the frame was very important then but actually I feel the way to speak about these things that we've been speaking about actually I found Marcia's what you spoke about really touching in terms of this circular history and this connection with our history which is as you say we've always always been here so there's no newness about it and actually to do that I felt I wanted to anchor it in something that was that had personal meaning for me that also is an important body of work and the way that artists do they often look at art history to make work you know they respond to you know and so my call and response I thought you know and also they were actually being called to this panel interesting it was all kind of had some synchronicity about it I thought that made sense to look at that work a significant body of work that I was personally involved in that I'm represented in and how to now engage with that in a new language really which is what I'm doing so actually at the moment what I'm doing is more the kind of research aspect of putting things together like rereading that text actually has been really important I found it really interesting reading it when you know that last bit about you read history for clues of not facts like actually the way she writes is this kind of mesh of fiction memory and when you know bits of it like even just reading like delta streets one I'm thinking oh yeah that's about delta what's that about hell no you know it's like it really is a bit of a mystery but and I think that's a it's really rich actually but as I was saying it's also quite spiritual I think I think there's something about what you've been saying that's deeply spiritual that I've realised that they're not reinventing the wheel I don't need to reinvent the wheel I can go to some work and carry it on in some way that's kind of what I'm doing I only just started in September at the Royal College like 30 years later doing the MA that I thought I would do but anyway it's feels like a good time Marcia you spoke about more being a time traveller and there's a strong strand in your work and I think you were you were invoking it very very powerfully in connecting with more's work and her legacy of a sense of time that is far more expansive and far far less delineated I suppose than the way in which perhaps traditional art history and traditional artistic practice sometimes thinks of time I wonder if you could speak a little bit about that I mean Evan also referenced and I think a couple of you did spoke about how more referenced ancient Egypt and mythical space and time and ideas I suppose for me personally it's about the absences trying to locate the absences time is completely circular, it's not linear and I think at some point we're going to understand that and see as that but I think more had that ability to understand that it was circular and maybe in the way in which she embodied Jean de Valle within herself that was another way of circulating time within herself I think for me that was quite a striking moment that she was able to put herself in somebody else's body but bring it to her time and then speak to us now and then it will speak to people continuously and I just think that's just incredibly awesome to have that foresight and to have the ability in using photography as well that thing that captured the image, it captures the soul does it capture the soul you know it's one of the things that people were quite scared of when it first invented does it capture the soul, how does it try and inspire how does it affect me in the future a photograph and I think for me that's quite powerful Laura, before we open up I wonder if you could say a little bit more about the work in relation to institutions you spoke about the cybercrime which of course was a really extraordinary technology to be using at that time and actually was hugely logistically complicated for Mord to get a hold of a camera like that to use it but I wonder if you could say a little bit about the interface between Mord's work and institutions because it's only really quite recently apart from some like the new hall art collection and Rochedale actually it's quite recently that institutions have been collecting Mord's work yeah I sort of don't know where to start with that because it's like we all know that institutions are big slow beasts that are only just getting round to acquiring black women's work including the institution that I used to work for I mean I guess thinking about the work in the V&A was acquired very early on and I think that was interesting that she had one set that was specifically for the V&A whereas the other set was dispersed yeah I don't know I'm not sure how much I have to say about that to be honest, I mean I did prepare an answer to your first question to give that one when you were talking about the question that you asked Evan about how those relate to institutions I suppose but in a sort of less direct way in terms of the institution of photography and her questioning of history with the capital H and the questioning of photography and time I was just I suppose thinking about the exhibition at the National Gallery of Scotland and how she kind of refused a usual sort of group exhibition like that this is definitely what it's about and this is definitely who is in all the all of the we know exactly who the model is and we know exactly when it was done but I think that the fact that she said that this is of Gen Doval I think is really telling of the way that she thinks about history and this idea of that image that I showed of Nadar first of all I was reading today in a book that it's definitely not Gen Doval but then I was also reading that it was more so clear that it is from her perspective and she says I was trying to find the quote go and check your archive is why don't you know that it's her, it clearly is her and I think that's this idea of yes we have always been here but yet this really important woman to many artists actually I was looking also that sorry what's her name Lorraine O'Grady has also made work about Gen Doval but yet we don't know when she was born we're not actually sure whether she was or really much about her at all we don't really even know what she looked like so yeah it's sort of like this history is there black women have always been there but where are the records and so yeah I don't know I guess maybe her relationship to institutions is a sort of almost like she's playing with them it's sort of like a flotation or something she also set up her own gallery so she was an institution builder so we shouldn't forget that let's open up do we have any questions in the room please will you say who you are and could you just hold on until the mic comes down so I think just down here Naomi please it's about row three please thank you so much thank you to Paul Mellon this is just a brilliant event and my name is Judo Attil and I've been wanting to ask this question since Dion spoke about abstract working in an abstract way and you made me think that as early as 1983 someone like Claudia Johnson was incorporating abstract elements into her work and even though the artist still speaks about her work as being represented in a sort of figurative there are abstract elements in the work and I wonder whether sometimes there are certain types of language that dominates our reading of black women's work that constantly eclips how the work is read so a point you make about language I think is really important the way even Ward uses language to provoke different types of realities to provoke different types of criticism around the way the record is kept and the language in which the record is kept as well because there is this constant invisible of black women and it's like we're not actually invisible credit is denied and also the language excludes what we're doing so it's all to the credit of research projects like black artists and modernism that we're returning to look at the work because by looking at the work old ways of speaking might not actually reveal what's going on there so I'm really delighted Dion that you're working towards abstraction because I think it's an area that's sort of denied black female artists because we're so overly represented within a narrative of figurative work so thank you for that Yeah it's actually just interesting when you said sort of denied I mean I think I mean it's almost like you aren't free to do anything although theoretically you are you know it's almost impossible to not somehow have some sense of responsibility or awareness where you sit it's just not our privilege that we can enjoy unfortunately but I think it's part of kind of you know you're kind of trying to open up a space in which everything is possible you know yeah and also I think you have to be true to your own particular journey like you can't sort of I mean it's not true to you to fit into whatever seems I think you know we want to get out of the box you know and I think that that's part of the work that everyone's doing is trying to create a space in which there is a broad kind of practice, there's a broad spectrum everything is relevant, everything has a place and it's just been part of it's just I couldn't just do figurative work at the moment actually it feels like there's so many traps in doing that but also because I'm also interested in lots of other things as we all are you know and I'm interested in sort of different sort of philosophical ideas or ideas around sort of Buddhist thought and it's like I'm trying to bring all of those things in but I still do have that sense of history actually kind of just erase it not erase it but just not speak to it, yeah. But it's important I think the point you're making which is that sometimes the way in which institutions framework in which invitations are issued or context are drawn that become the constraint it's not about what artists themselves are doing because there's such a breadth of complexity of language and modes of articulating. Do we have another question in the room? Yes, one at the back and then do we have any questions online? One, okay, so then we've got time just for two the question at the back there and then we'll take the question online. Thank you so much. Hi, my name is Sofia Gotti. Do I need to say more? No, hi. I'm really inspired by what I listen to this evening so thank you so much also for sharing your emotions because I feel like that has a real place. And well one of the things I work on a lot is archives and trying to think about what happens to the archive to this documentation first of all when the archive doesn't have any documentation that you're looking for maybe or when the archive then becomes part of an institution does it not lose so many of its creative spaces attributes and when you're talking about re-claiming, re-purposing, reconfiguring I was wondering what you're in that with that intent what is your relationship with archival material or that idea a very open question to anyone who would like to answer actually Who would like to take that question? Evan or Marcia? I've spoken to it a little bit but I think for me it's kind of what I said that actually having done a lot of different, explored a lot of different archives a lot of different context, something I have realised is that even when the material the tiny amount of material is there it can be very hard to access because of the bureaucratic processes you have to go to in order to do so either you need an institutional affiliation or you have to submit some kind of documents or whatever I've been able to do that but I understand that that's not always possible so I think something that I'm interested in is how does the material become activated in other ways I have tried to do it in different ways by organising some reading groups and collective creativity a lot of our work was about holding space for people to be able to interact with material without having to go through those various hoops because the reality is that a lot of the material isn't part of people's arts education I also teach and I encounter that a lot where students are like oh but where is the material and yeah you can find bits and pieces of it online but often it's decontextualised and miscredited or poorly credited and things like that you don't really get a sense of actually the dialogue the relationships that people had the connections they had you really only get to understand that when you do the archival work I don't have an answer but it's something that I'm really interested in how does an archive become more active how does it become something that people can really be with outside of the bureaucratic processes that can enable you to really access that material I think you have one thing to say about that question very quickly because we're running out of time I was just going to talk a little bit about how more you work with archives because I was just thinking about how it's almost like this idea of going into an archive and looking at material and looking for facts it's almost like she did the opposite of that in the way she took on this persona and kind of made stuff up and lived this person I feel like I want to ask Dion to tell the story but you told me that Mord shaved her head to make Zabat to make Calliope it was more about that I was so impressed by her strength of character after photographing that piece of her is Jean de Valle she came she had this amazing head of hair then she came in the next morning and she shaved her head I was like that's bold it was more just the boldness of her ability to go from that incredible let's get you all wrapped up in this and this and that and then to come in besides the fact that there's a whole thing about all the aunties in your head saying why have you got your hair apart from that story it was just her decisiveness and the reason I brought that up is because potentially I'm doing what Mord does and making something up but I know that Jean de Valle she apparently sold her jewels and her hair in order to keep her and Baudelaire alive a float financially because he spent he was sort of financially I don't know he just threw his money around basically and I just thought that was really I wonder if that was some sort of like ok ok we have one last question it's more of a comment actually from Nina who is watching because I just thought it would be really important to so thank you Nina for commenting virtually the copy of passion still speaks to audiences which is my essay in the book feels dated and just wondering whether images and words time travel differently so maybe that's just something for us to ponder about different modes of text and image and their interaction in publications and their afterlives afterwards Nina Edge another important artist who we should credit and whose work needs to be seen more often Evan thank you so much Marcia, Laura, Dion it's been an absolute pleasure and thank you to the Paul Mellon Centre and Murray Edwards College this has been a really important conversation and most importantly thank you to all of you who are in this room and virtually with us this evening it was an absolute pleasure to be with you I just wanted to say hello just wanted to say thank you again to all the panellists that was such a brilliant and moving discussion and it really felt like Maud was in the room with us which was amazing so thank you all so much I wish it could have gone on for longer thanks now at Cattles Yard so if I can encourage you all to walk down Castle Hill to Cattles Yard we'll have an opportunity to see Shatapur Bessarys' beautiful exhibition as well and have a glass of wine so thank you