 So, Jarrett, Ransom, take it away, sister. Absolutely. Thanks so much. I know we dove right in and I'm excited for the conversation too. But I'm also excited every single episode when I see these presenting sponsors, logos right on the screen. These are companies that support the nonprofit show. They support these episodes, but they support you. They really lean in and they exist to elevate you, to elevate your mission-driven purpose and your causes around the globe. So, please do check them out. Give them a like, some love, follow, and reach out to them. If any of them can help you. I will give you a little nugget. Bloomerang, Stephen Shaddock, helped us secure today's guest. So, we're excited for that. Welcome, Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. I'm Jarrett Ransom, also known as the Nonprofit Nerd. So, that's my mascot that we're going to talk about today, CEO of the Raven Group. And this week has been chocked full with so many amazing guests. And we have even more guests coming on. We have, I was just looking at the lineup actually. So, tomorrow we'll be talking about Impact Method with Sarah Oliveiri. And then next week, we're talking about Nonprofit Compensation with Nonprofit HR. You don't want to miss that. Clause Selling again with Fundraising Academy. And also some conversations about how you can be more value-based in your deliveries and in your non-profit at large. But today I am thrilled to announce and to share with you our guest, John Lep, partner at Agents of Good, already a phenomenal person, human being, we can tell. Because we've had such a great conversation with you already. Welcome, John. And thanks for joining us today. Thank you so much for having me. Much appreciated. Okay, so we always love it when we have international guests. Because it makes us feel like we're really, you know, hopping in a poppin' when we get somebody. So, we haven't had an international guest for a while. Tell us where you are. Well, I'm not that international. I'm up here in Canada, about 40 minutes outside of Toronto. And yeah, I mean, it's a really amazing privilege to be able to go around the world. This is when we could do that. And tell great stories of the work we get to do. And so, I love venturing down to my friends in the U.S. and share the love the best I can. Well, you told us something interesting in the 2D Chat Chat, before we got started, was that you really had built your business in a remote way. You worked with people across Canada. And, I mean, your staff and your partners? The idea was, yeah, it was always supposed to be a collaboration, you know, like the business. I never believed the idea that you had to have all the knowledge in the world in one building with four walls. And it never made any sense to me. And so, even as a business, you know, Twitter allowed us to reach out to some of the top minds in the world. And for me, it'll call my friend Mark in the UK, because Mark is one of the best fundraisers in the UK, and say, Mark, I have this problem and I need help solving it. Mark's like, what can I tell you? Even my own staff, again, we're scattered all over the place. It's not about where you are. It's about what you know. And to have a relationship where you can call on anyone anywhere is, like I said, it's such an amazing privilege. I'm really, really happy. Wow. Yeah. You know, I love it. So I would say, John, when the rest of us were like all freaking out wondering what we were going to do, you knew what to do because you had been working in this, in this environment with this cadence. Yeah, the joke was I was already socially isolated. So again, there wasn't really a big change in terms of our working relationships. We were very used to working with each other across Skype, across student calls with our clients and with each other. So there wasn't really any effect there in terms of the pandemic or how we work together at all. Well, I think it's old news. Yeah, really, old news. And I think what it probably does, it allows us to even get deeper into this concept. Because if you were innovating before you're forced to, certainly that speaks to the whole issue of how you have navigated your clients to this mascot position. We heard about you through, as Jarrett mentioned, Steven Shattuck of Bloomerang. And he was like, the hummingbird guy, the hummingbird guy. You've got to get the hummingbird guy. OK, so tell us about the hummingbird. So the hummingbird, Ruby, the hummingbird came as a part of a pact we did for an organization called Ontario Nature back in 2009, I think. Ruby came about because the organization had been doing the same thing the same way in terms of storytelling, in terms of its appeals. And we had this great story about bird strikes, which is actually a pretty sad story about these birds who fly all the way from Costa Rica up through the US and into Canada. And as they try to get into Northern Ontario and into Northern Canada, they were basically flying into buildings because all these buildings leave the lights on every night. So the organization was taking the government to court to challenge this idea of leaving all these lights in these buildings on because these birds were dying. That's a big problem, obviously, and stuff. So we thought, who better to express the villainy, if you will, than Ruby, the hummingbird. And so we had the Etter Envelope just basically just had two little bird prints, hummingbird bird prints, on the Etter Envelope. And that was all there was. So in the context of jargon, what better jargon is there than the bird nerd prints of this hummingbird? The bird nerds in the group knew what it was. So it became a very provocative Etter Envelope. Like, what is this? Why am I getting an envelope with two bird prints on it? And Ruby actually wrote the letter to the donors expressing what the problem was and having to be a part of the solution. So fundamentally, we do this because changing the voice that the voice of the organization instantly gets donors' attention because it's so different than Julia, how you would sound or how I sound. And usually, most organizations only rely on one voice. Well, your organization is made up of many voices. So we're always asking, what's a better voice to tell the story than this voice? This is great. Well, and I would like to address why I'm wearing a sequin dress today. Sorry, John, it's not for your presence. But immediately after this, I am leading a discussion on innovative disruption. And as we continue to talk about this topic for today, this is even an example of how you can be a disruptive innovator, right? How do you tell your story in a different way? Do you share your mission using another voice and even the penmanship of a bird? So I think this is amazing. We all have an opportunity to think differently so that we can not continue to do the same things and continue to expect the same results. Again, that's the definition of insanity. So how might we look at our storytelling differently and innovatively to bring in a mascot? It's really an interesting thing. So one of the things I'm hearing you say is that with this visual storytelling, you're also doing it primarily in first person from the voice of that mascot. Absolutely. And that's... It seems like a small thing. And most organizations are largely uncomfortable with it because it feels a bit childish in some cases. Trust me, I've told stories from trucks, caribou's, Santa Claus, birds, bags. And I always raise a ton of money. Donors love this stuff because it's so surprising. It's delightful. Even if you're talking about a serious topic, you're still... The donors react in a completely different way because it's just far more engaging. And again, it allows me as a storyteller to actually use very emotional, very vulnerable language and talk in a very real conversational kind of way where most professional EDs are not comfortable appearing. You know what I mean? Like that stuff has to go. Like we're past that now. If you're not comfortable being vulnerable and emotionally storytelling, then go work at a bank. Like I just don't understand why we have all these people here who don't like this stuff. I'm not here to make you like it. I'm here to help you fundraise so you can do better in terms of meeting your mission. So get out of the way of that. Stop messing about with it. Snaps to you, that's what this was, right? Like snaps to that. And I love this. And as we continue, excuse me, to talk about how we engage multigenerations in our fundraising, in our organizations, in our civic engagement and our community at large, I think we can all relate to visual storytelling, right? And as you said, John, you know, this isn't for kids. This is for everyone. And this is a great way to integrate multi-generational opportunities. And so John, you're not, I mean, we're looking at some artwork that you did in a campaign for camp and you talked about the hummingbird. I mean, that's not a child's issue. That's like, that's a natural issue. So would you say that the majority of your clients are embracing this type of storytelling that even if they don't have any connectivity to something that would be interesting, interesting to children or wrapped around that? I mean, it can be, it really doesn't matter, I guess is what I'm hearing you say. Doesn't matter. I mean, it's not something we'd go to time and time again. It's just a small part of our storytelling or the sort of tools we use to tell great stories. But again, I think donors of any age, again, it's just so different than what they're used to seeing, which is very boring, which is very dry. I look at my mother-in-law, she's your donor, she's everyone's donor. And I just, the spring went through her mailbox of 60 packs. And I would say most of the packs are exactly the same. A lot of people don't understand basic storytelling or even just basic tactics in terms of how to tell engaging stories. This isn't to do with appearing childlike or unprofessional. It's just about doing something more engaging. Even this stuff here creatively is just more engaging to look at, to engage with, and there's a lot of really nitty-gritty scientific things happening here too in this work. It's not just doing what we feel is the right thing. It's rooted in actual science and testing. We know that. So share with us what that looks like to you. Like when you, what is some of that connectivity that you've noticed? Well, again, I mean, just in terms of basic fundraising and storytelling, I mean, you have to have a problem that a donor can help solve. So if I'm a donor who gives you $25, asking me to solve a $10,000 problem is not cool. And so again, what is the problem I can help solve? How can I be a part of that solution? What's the action you need me to take? Is this an urgent problem? Classic cases, why me, why now? You know, your fundraising, your direct mail has to answer those two basic questions and most people don't even get to asking or saying what the problem is or actually asking for something. Or, you know, even the other envelope, I joke with people, I obsess over other envelopes. I lie awake at night thinking about other envelopes because if I make, if I get that wrong, I don't care if Tom Hearn wrote the letter or Jen Love wrote the letter or Jeff Brooks wrote the letter, no one's gonna see it. And therefore I've failed everybody. And so again, I can see- They all get opened. Yeah. And I see these 60 packs from this donor like Dale and they're all white number 10 envelopes with a little tiny crappy photograph on it. Some tagline that has nothing to do with anything and people don't understand the how important these pieces actually are. And again, this information is out there. It's not like I'm, it's not like I've just made all this stuff up. All this information is out there. You can read books and learn these things. But you have a lot of people who just don't understand basic principles of direct response. I forget what story telling, which is a creative, it is a creative pursuit, but just even the basics are completely misunderstood, sadly. You know, we have a guest on recently who said that millennials are really responding well to direct mail because so much of what they would have normally received has gone digital. So their invoices, their bills, their invoices, their, you know, general communications are not, are not snail mail. And so when something does get into their mailbox, it's like, I've got mail. You know, I mean, it seems like it's a bigger deal. And I'm wondering what you're seeing, is that true in the case of working with your nonprofits? I mean, when I think of donors, I'm thinking mostly of women who are 65 to 95 years old. And I would say the true, the same is for them as well. They get a lot of email for those who have email addresses, but they, and they get a lot of mail too, like Dale does. But again, most of it looks like a bill. The best direct response looks like a personal piece of communication from me to you. And so she's going through the mail, just like, we all do bill, bill, bill, bill, bill. Oh, this is nice. What is this? This handwritten, it's got my name written. I've got a bunch of stamps on it. Like if there's feels like there's something inside, I wonder who this is from and they engage with it, right? And so again, et cetera, why I don't understand why people don't understand this or think, oh, this can't be true. Like we have to be, again, this idea of being professional and we use this whole idea of branding as like some sort of weird bubble wrap. It's like a protection system. So we can't be judged too harshly. It's just gotta go. It just, we have to stop doing this kind of work because you're leaving so much money on the table. Dale wants to help so badly and we do everything we can to get in the way of letting her do what she wants to do, which is help us. Thank you. Thank you for like shaking it up and telling us what we really need to be thinking about. It's great. Show us the next slide, Julie. Yeah, we appreciate it. Show us the next slide because we really want to talk about things to the heart of it, right? Like, you know, what's it look like? I can't not imagine and you're right. It was a sad that it comes to Ruby, the hummingbird and why this campaign really needed to even come to fruition. So how did it to the heart of mascot and storytelling and how this really does come to fruition? Well, part of it is having a, you know, working with organizations who do trust that kind of work. You know, we're fortunate that we are, we've shared what we think about this work for so long that most people come to us kind of have seen the stuff. Obviously, if we didn't know what we were doing and our work didn't work, we wouldn't be here at all. So I think that having that trust is really, really important. This kind of work isn't going to break anything. I think people think our donors are going to hate it or they're not going to give to it. And again, that's, I've never seen proof of that in any of this stuff. Donors want to feel engaged and appreciated by their organizations. And so I think we spend the time to sort of take a step back and go, what's the story we're telling them this year? Like, what are the things we know our donors care about? What are the values that we can pull on because there are values we share with one another as an organization, as other human beings. And where the stories that will help in terms of sharing some of these values and just connecting with them on a more deeper level. So we use things like this engaging illustrations and our work because again, photographs can only go so far sometimes. Sometimes you need to do something a bit different. And there are so many amazing artists out there who can help bring this work to life in a totally different engaging way. And the donors are not going to look at this and think, I've seen this a million times up on a billboard here and there, this looks something very different. And we actually had a donor who wrote in and said, they don't usually give to direct mail, but they love this piece so much that they felt engaged to give. And they were in awe of the artistry of these field workers, even though it was our illustrator who did all the illustrations and made them look like they were done by people in the field. So again, you do create a different level of a relationship with these donors. It's not like I want all these donors to be our best friends, but you do create more human connections with other donors because we're being human and we're sharing human things in human, emotional, vulnerable way. So important. And this artwork is beautiful. Yeah, this artwork is stunning. John, I'm curious when you look at these campaigns as we've had on the backgrounds of our slides, are these done like once a year at a certain time or are you working with your clients to do this type of a message throughout the year several times or what does that look like in the relationship of all the other marketing and communications? We always start with what's the story we're telling. What's the story we're telling and what are we asking for? And I always start with the ask first. I have to know what I'm asking for because I'm trying to determine what the story is and need to tell to highlight why I'm asking for this thing. And in an organization, you need to know what you're asking for. Why me and why now? And if you can't answer that, then forget about everything else. You're told that every conference, you need a story, you need a story, you need a story. You actually don't always need a story, but you do need a problem. And so when you focus on the problem, and our work is very immediate. It's very much in the right now. Because as we all know right now, our world is changing. Every single, we have one organization in the last two days, we've changed the direction of mailing three times because the world they're living in is changing. The world their donors are living in is changing. And so you have to adapt to that. I don't understand. We have friends who work at agencies who are developing Christmas packs right now. They're talking about snow flying and ornaments and right now because it's great for them. They get done, it's sent off to China to get all the labels done and all the pens and socks and calendars. And that's what's convenient for them. It's not convenient for donors. It will mean nothing by the time it gets into their hands. So I think we always want to attain a certain level of intimacy and immediacy with the world and what's going on. Because that's what this, there are donors who sit at home picturing people, women sitting in church basements pounding the stuff out on typewriters because at that moment they need something from these people. And I think we have to retain that. It's not easy work for us to do it that way. It's harder work, but it's more important and more valuable to donors. Wow. How long is it? So I'm kind of wearing my publisher's hat that I did for 30 years. So this is a technical question. And because you brought this up, I mean, in my world I would have been like, we got to be working on Christmas now. I'm one of those people you were just talking about. So walk me through the process of timing then. Because this is a big thing. I mean, this work is not easy that you're doing. You're not just using clip art. I mean, this is actual custom work that's being refined and refined and refined. What is the time investment of that for a client? It really does depend. I mean, so Veronica McGrath, who I work with NBC, she's really good at turning around just simple little sketches within a day or two if I need it. But we started nowhere to go. Like when Jen and I established what the problem is and what the story is we're gonna tell, I can immediately start to think about, well, how do I want to tell that story and what am I going to need? Another artist we use, Jessica Ray Gordon here in Toronto, she does beautiful, like it is art. I have a lot of her art hanging in my house because it's gorgeous and it does take time. So she needs a few weeks to actually do her own sketches first and then actually do all the coloring and painting and clipping and all the work that she does. So it does depend, but we have to sort of take that into account the best we can. And sometimes I don't have two weeks. Sometimes I have to get something out tomorrow because that's where we're at. And we react to that, you know? I have no preconceived notions of when I start packing what I want it to be. I wait until I figure out what the problem is and everything else and how much time I have to solve the problem and then go from there. There is no standard amount of time for anything. So that's probably that leads us to our next question and that is the stories that you have and the connectivity that your mascots and your design is actually creating. Talk to us about that. Because I think that's really interesting that people are assigning value to these illustrations. Because I think the moment they get something in their mailbox from something like this, this is my friend Phil, I was introduced to Phil. They know this is different than something they're used to seeing. And so again, that immediately makes it engaging to them. And so when we sent Phil out for the first time in the fall pack, Phil was very clear on what the problem was in the community in terms of people, neighbors needing help. He stepped out of the sort of the professional zone of the ED who wrote the main appeal and was able just to be very clear on what the problem was. And donors responded very well, you know, just in terms of they made notes on the reply forums about Phil. And so we actually, we had Halloween coming, not another appeal, just Halloween. And so we got Phil dressed up as a ghost for Halloween and just used digitally. We just went out on Instagram and through emails. And again, he could have some fun with it. He talked about getting dressed up. He wanted to see pictures of donors as them dressed up. And you know, Halloween is scary, but you know what else is really scary? Hunger in our community and people needing food is also very scary. And if you could help, that'd be amazing. So donors are, you know, you're having fun, you're giving with a smile on your face, you know, and just a bit of like, this is different than how I'm used to giving to organization. Giving isn't always, it doesn't always have to be transactional. And Phil, again, this was a holiday appeal and we created this ornament where donors could just share some words about, you know, why they support this organization, who they're thinking of when they give, something just very simple and emotive. And you get the most brilliant things back from donors. And I always share a note that we got from a 90-year-old donor about why she gives to this organization, but she's talking very emotively to Phil, saying some really profound things. And as I shared, you know, it's fascinating to me that you do get donors talking to Phil, who is a 2D paper bag and saying the most amazing, beautiful things. And I also think it's really sad that we've created an atmosphere in our sector where donors are having these emotive conversations with talking hearts like Humbert back here or Phil, the bag, but not with us as humans and EDs. We've created this atmosphere and it's our job to fix it. It's not the donor's job. And so I think that's the real, that's the real question is how do we change this? How do we get back to letting donors talk to us? So we're always creating opportunities for donors to tell us things about them, share their stories. We're really good at asking them and talking to them all the time. We're really crappy at letting them talk to us and share their story. Now, disruptive question. Have you seen Phil or any other mascot go from 2D to 3D, right? Like, you know, when we grew up as a child, our schools had mascots, they were under the mask. There was someone under that. In fact, the hometown that I'm from, John, in South Carolina was a mascot manufacturer and literally made, I know, I remember passing this building, a huge aluminum building. And I remember my mom telling me, you know, they make mascots in there, like mascots, you know, clothing, uniform. Have you seen someone like Ruby or Phil or anything at any, I don't mean to say thing, any other mascot, representative mascot turn into more or less that physical presence? Yeah, I mean, Phil is a case in point. Phil worked so well through the candy, they actually did the game turned into a mascot. They take the hockey games, you know, around the community parades. And I was joked, like, you know, he's really made it as a creative. When they do that, same with my friend, Humbert, back here, he's an actual stuffy, but he was a character we used for a possible foundation here in Ontario to tell great stories. And we got the stuff he made and we were gonna share with the right kinds of donors just to have a different connection. But yeah, we've had a few instances of that. It's like, you really feel like it's like you really feel like you've made it when they do that. So Phil's still in the community raising funds for organization that he's obviously very deeply connected to and donors are still engaging with him in a very creative, fun way. It's brilliant. And I love this. So the little script here, please don't take it off the screen, Julia. Remember me? I'm Phil, the food drive bag. Like perfect, right? Goes on to say, and I woke up with this Santa hat on. I'm Santa's helper, Phil. Perfect. Yeah, I love it. So powerful. Yeah, I think this is really clever. I also think that what's wonderful about it is that it engages your donors in a way that is playful but serious and allows them to kind of engage versus just like, oh yeah, I'll put that with my bills. Cause I think a lot of people do that with the mailers. They're just like, okay, it's another check I have to write. It's another credit card number I have to write down. And this takes, it seems like it changes the conversation. I always share a little case study that we all see the jars on the, by the cash register that certain places and stuff like that. They actually did a test. What they do is they just have a jar and some donations for this organization. And then they tested by putting two eyeballs, they'll do the eyeballs on it. And it instantly raised a lot more money. People start putting more money into it because we can't ask humans, we can't help but engage with things of eyeballs. And so my joke always has been that through my career, I put eyeballs on everything, always raises more money. So. And now an automated voice that when the change or goes in, it says, thank you. There's so much to do there. I love it. And we could certainly continue this conversation for such a long time, but I wanna make sure our viewers know where they can continue this conversation. John Lep, thank you. I am so appreciative. I feel better knowing that you and your team exist and are doing this great work around the globe. So check out Agents of Good. As he said, there is no brick and mortar. So they are in your community. They are in every community. And yeah, find a way to tell your story and describe your problem. That's what I learned. That's my big takeaway. It's not about telling the story, right? It's about addressing the problem and the why me, why now. So thank you. I love it. Hey, again, I'm Julia Patrick. I've been joined today by the nonprofit nerd herself, Jarrett Ransom. Hey, Jarrett, good luck on your disruptive party, out of the thing that you're gonna be doing. We're gonna have fun. Yeah, and just a little bit. Hey, we wanna thank all of our presenting sponsors. Again, without you, we would not have these amazing conversations that we do. John, this has been really fun. I've really enjoyed your comments and things that you've given us. You've put a twist on it. And I knew when Steven Shattuck started raving about you, that we had to get you on. So this is super, yeah, super cool, really, really neat. And I think that we are in the business of solving problems when we serve the nonprofit sector. And so this is one of those magical moments where we've learned a new strategy. And so thank you so much. Hey, we wanna mention to everybody, we're gonna be launching a new show, a second show, Fundraising Events TV. It's gonna be coming live to you and the archives are gonna be populated starting in June. So you'll be hearing more and more about that, but it's gonna be a show specifically dedicated to events from golf to gallows to everything in between. So you'll be hearing more about that. Check us out. Again, another great show, huh, Jared? Oh, it's fun, yeah. I can't wait to help my clients create mascot. So we'll be in touch. Excellent. I love it. Well, as we like to end every day, we wanna remind everyone to stay well, so you can do well. Thanks everybody, have a great day. We'll see you back here tomorrow.