 Okay, welcome back. Welcome back. So we just had, you know, we were doing like a warm up to really have a basic understanding about suicide, just to also check on certain attitudes of what we have with regard to suicide and how we can correct some of that. So just a note, you know, sometimes these talks or discussions of suicide and of warning signs and all of that can definitely or at times can bring about significant strong emotions within us as hearers or as those of us who discuss it. And I just want to be, you know, just sensitive about the fact that just take some time to monitor what your reactions to these maybe. And if you do feel a sense of overwhelm, please ensure that you can reach out, you could reach out to me or to anybody else, someone who you trust about just being able to share what of what you may be feeling and that's important. So these can evoke strong reactions in us and it's okay to to, you know, to face that that there are strong reactions, especially if it's a new topic of its if it's if it's got some kind of a background to it. Please ensure that you reach out if you would need any, any specific help. Okay. So just to give you certain examples, not examples, certain understanding about what are we looking at when we when we look at different forms of self harm or different forms of life threatening behaviors. Okay. One of the terms is yes suicide, which is the action of killing oneself intentionally that is the meaning of suicide, a para suicide attempt is a non fatal act that is it does not move to death, but the person deliberately causes injury to himself or ingest some prescribed dose of something in excess so it is it's not something that becomes fatal, but it definitely is an intention the intention is there and sometimes a para suicide attempt, often is because they may be oblivious to the fact of, of what actually causes a suicide causes a success attempt of suicide. Okay. The other word that we also need to look at is self harm, which is the attempt to harm or destroy the body with no intent of killing oneself and that you would see superficial cuts or superficial ways of releasing pain away without actually the intention of killing oneself. Okay. So that's what is called self harm. Just a couple of terms that we need to understand. So as we said it is the leading third leading cause of death it's the act of taking one's own life. Remember that many people who commit suicide do suffer from depression or other mental disorders and this is not all all the entire population of those who commit suicide, but a good percentage of a 50 to 60% of those who do commit suicide do have an underlying depression, a clinical depression or any other kind of mental health disorders. Now quickly we're just going to look at certain reasons I know these aren't completely comprehensive, but nevertheless I think it helps to give us a good idea. One of the leading causes is a major psychiatric illness, which can be there are there are different kinds of illnesses that that lead people to commit suicide one is clinical depression. Now this type of depression is not just a phase of being feeling low or feeling sad it is much more severe and unbearable something that we looked at when we were looking at mental health concerns, and those who suffer from depression, especially severe depression are at greatest risk for suicide. At the time, even before they are they have fallen in treat gotten into treatment and even after they have gotten to treatment and they begin to feel better. Because when someone some people are severely depressed they may not even have the sense of the energy to carry out the suicide and they begin to recover and they feel better and that's when they may they may return to the thought and return to carrying it out, especially when they don't have extended help, you know, either emotional or spiritual help and that doesn't help happen. Now people with clinical depression on treatment. There are high chances of them going into of attempting suicide schizophrenia or even certain bipolar illnesses which has depression and that these can be again schizophrenia is another one of the symptoms could be depression in itself especially in conditions of paranoid schizophrenia that's where they have the fear that people are or they are being they're being followed they are being talked about they are being pursued negatively they feel that they're going to be killed so these kind of thoughts, bizarre thoughts could also lead them into having into having suicidal thoughts and ideations that can lead to attempts. So, we must consider the fact that, you know, someone who does, who is comes across as suicidal, we need to have a check to understand to an evaluation to check whether this has a psychiatric condition or not. Okay, the next leading causes substance alcoholism and drug abuse and often this is associated with highest suicide rate because often the substances bring down insight and bring down judgment and a lot of, especially a lot of adolescent suicides are linked to associated a lot with substance use. When, when they are either having an overdose or under the influence of alcohol, there is lesser, their inhibitions are even lesser, you know, they're not inhibited. And they could probably either act impulsively or they could be it's called comorbid that is they have even depression as part of their morbidity or a disease factor. So alcoholism and drug use can be significant stressors that can not just result in depression, but there can be a tendency for high risk behavior, which one of it is high risk behavior, which one of it is suicide. There are conditions of, you know, the inability to cope the certain personalities where they just one is impulsivity. Okay, because of conditions that may, may happen and that and the inability to, to work out a solution to work out a problem. There can be impulsivity and and we do see that sometimes suicides are because of impulsivity, you know, just decide that there is a there is an argument that takes place and somebody just decides to run out to walk out, jump out of the window or jump out of a terrace or things like that. Impulsivity and inability to cope, which shows that they aren't resilient to issues and, and problems in life and often we see this as a result of not, not, not having had opportunity to deal with frustration to deal with, you know, wilderness experiences and as a result just just unable to really work through a significant solution. Losses, significant losses. Now this can be loss in relationships, it can be loss in finance, it could be loss and, you know, different other things that could drive a person to such an extreme. Now these two tied together this one and the point above that is the inability to cope and ability to see hope in anything they kind of tied together, but a sudden loss could probably lead them to, to commit to committing suicide. It, it often, like we said, it's, it's a cry for help. A lot of, a lot of them just commit suicide because it's the only thing that they think that they have or, or they're able to do so that that could be that's another reason other other kind of conditions more minor ones would be those, you know, having, having outbursts of anger. There can be even manipulative personalities where there is a sense of, you know, being able to emotionally blackmail somebody and, and just walking out to, to do something, maybe the intention isn't as much there. But the, the means yet the emotional disturbance is so high is so overwhelming that they often take some of those drastic steps. We also see that, you know, media, media, social networking, all, all kinds of influences that come out, out of entertainment and media is also again, you know, one of the causes that, that takes place that you know there's there's no way to cope in something like that. So this is the best way to, to, to deal with, with issues. Okay. So that's, that's quickly on what are the reasons just some warning signs and I think this is important to, to understand. Okay, so I'm just going to probably read these out because I think they, they give they, they, it's actually explainable. Okay, so first of all, I'll start right from the top. It's a sense of hopelessness or no hope for the future. They don't see any way that they can work out some issue or some, some future path in their life, there's no purpose of being there, isolation or feeling alone, not having any kind of a social network or a support system, aggressiveness and irritability, we spoke that earlier, possessing possessing lethal means, just the fact that they have something that they are in possession of something that could take away life, it could be pills, medication, arms, you know, guns, weapons, all of that could probably also be warning signs. They, they keep saying that they feel that they're a burden to others, okay, in their conversation, there is a sense of feeling, feeling like, like a burden that can be drastic changes in mood and behavior, you know, you begin to see fluctuations very strong fluctuations in their mood, frequently talking about death, self harm, like cutting behaviors. Now that's why we need to take even self harm issues seriously, when they do say that they're going to just kill themselves but then you know they just continue cutting, which means it's a cry for help so they do require some emotional, spiritual, psychological help that can help them cope with the kind of pain that they're feeling, engaging in risky behaviors, you know, doing things that are, that are highly risky, you know, driving at high speeds or doing significantly dangerous sport, or you know, just walking into, into, maybe just getting into the sea and just walking out into the sea without any kind of a, kind of, you know, gear and things like that. So these are, these are all risky behaviors, you know, that it doesn't matter what is going to follow for them. Having funeral, making funeral arrangements that they have settled everything, giving things away, that is, you know, settling the house, writing down a will, putting down property, writing up insurance, all of that again are warning signs. Substance abuse again is a sign, making threats, you know, suicidal threats that I will kill myself, I will go do this, I will ensure that, you know, you won't see me again tomorrow, tomorrow by this time I'll be dead, those are all warning signs. And a negative view of self, significant issues with self-esteem is something that again becomes, becomes like a warning sign, okay. We move to the next one. Okay, how do we generally kind of have a risk assessment? Now what does this mean? A risk assessment is you're, you're looking at who are at greater risk to commit suicide. So when you are assessing somebody, these are certain points to, to keep about. It's, it's predicting if a person would commit suicide. Now prediction is not always easy, but there are these known factors, these risk factors and they, they may be a better prediction for suicidal risk. And this goes under the acronym of sad persons. Okay, if you look at it, it's sad persons and it was described by, it's, it's something that's described by in research. And it is, it has been continuously reviewed and people use this to, to generally have, have a, have an assessment. Okay, so this is something for us to understand. So who are at a greater risk? So people, now it does not mean all men, all men, you have to go assess all men whether they're suicidal. That's not what it means. You're looking at if there are corroborating symptoms that come about, you know, let's say someone who's depressed, someone who's alone, someone who's had significant losses, someone who has a very negative view of themselves, you know, you kind of find some of this and then you kind of do the kind of this, this assessment. Okay, so risk assessment as sex, which is males, like we said, they are at a greater risk for suicides. Some of the reasons being one, they're, you know, culturally also not this depends from culture to culture of the need for men to be stronger, the need for the, the expectations of men to be mature, to, to not be emotional, to not cry, to not be able to discuss problems. So they're very internal in nature. And they, they do not bring about or, or share as much as women do. And men being a little bit more aggressive to, to having want to complete something they've started. These are certain factors that make men more, more at risk for suicide. Age group, we see the age group between the teens, the late teens to around midlife is what we see as a greater chance. D is for depression. So if there is clinical depression, they are at a higher risk. P is for previous suicide attempts. Have there been a history of suicide attempts in their own lives? As well as if there has been something in the family, has there been a family history of suicide that again makes it a greater risk factor. E is ethanol, ethanol meaning alcohol or other substance abuse. So someone who's, who, who, who's, and who's into alcohol or into drugs is someone who is risk for, is at risk. A rational thinking loss. Now these are, for example, those who have mental health disorders like schizophrenia. Schizophrenia is a thought disorder. So if they do, do not have a thinking, they are not able to rationally, realistically think which happens in mental health, mental illnesses like depression or schizophrenia. They are again at a higher risk. S, S again is for social support, a social support that's lacking, or is an organized plan if there is a very, very significant plan. They, they, they have it all ready and planned out. That becomes a greater risk. N is for no spouse. If they're unmarried, if they're single, that is at a greater risk. And S is sickness. If there is any kind of a chronic debilitating physical or mental illness can cause, they can be at higher risk for suicide. Okay. I hope, is there, is there any question before I quickly move on to the second part of it. Okay. All right. So suicidal behavior. Yeah. Yes. Yes, Amir. Go ahead. Also, can you hear me? Yeah, I can. I can. Just in, in your statistics is like a direct question. Is the suicide rate in Christians more than any other religions? Would you have any idea? Okay. I don't have statistics for it. But in experience with just counseling, in my experience in the last 20 years, I've, I've had three believers who have committed suicide. Okay. As against maybe those who, who are outside of it. And again, say, I think we should also look at the setting that I've been in. So we, in a hospital setting, we would have a larger proportion. But I think in my experience, I've had three believers who have sex, who committed suicide and passed away. But when you're looking at a different kind of a setting, I would say, you know, it's hard, like in a hospital setting, maybe those who've committed suicide, I have not been able, I may not have always had a, had a personal wrapper with all of them or sessions with all of them, you know, they've come as part of some, you know, as part of the entire team that have been, but then there I think I would see a lot more of Again, I'm not sure if I'm biased and I'm accurate at this, but, but when you're looking at a population of 2% Christianity and the rest of it, the representation is much more from other cultures. But have I seen believers committing suicide? Yes, I have, I have. So percentage, I'm sorry, I may not be able to accurately give you some. Okay. All right. So we're going to just just to just to understand this about suicidal behavior. What is it that you look out for? Now, it, like we said, it causes pain, immeasurable pain, suffering. And of course, suicide definitely causes a loss of loss to different individuals and, and families and you know, even, even to to communities. But if someone is showing one or more of these following behaviors, you can, you can be pretty sure that they're thinking about suicide and it's important not to ignore this. Okay, so just quickly just reading this as excessive sadness or Talking about wanting to die or to kill oneself, recent trauma of a life crisis, feeling hopeless or having no reason to live, talking about feeling trapped or an unbearable pain, talking about being a burden to others, making preparations, acting anxious or agitated, behaving recklessly, sleeping too little or too much withdrawal and rage, showing rage or talking about, about revenge. Okay. Sorry. Okay. Just to just other things that you need to what would you do as you're talking to people is yes, you will need to find out these risk factors. You also need to talk about what is their ideas or what are their plans or what is their intent. Okay, so it's not just talking superficially that they want to commit suicide but actually getting into significant details is very important to to help to help one for you to understand. And again, thereafter also for you to to help. Okay, so we'll just go through that. Okay, so suicide ideation. Like I said, it is important to ask directly, use the word suicide when asking about suicide, not harm to self. Okay, so use it. And often you can you can use it this way you can say I ask everyone I meet with about suicide and so I'm going to ask you, have you had any thoughts about suicide or about death. Or I've read that between 10 to 50% of teenagers have thought about suicide. Is that true for you, or you could say, you know, sometimes when people are down or depressed or feeling hopeless, they think about suicide and reject the idea. Or they think about suicide as a solution. Have you had either of these thoughts about suicide so you know you need ideation is you you are getting to ask them directly to understand if there are even ideas of it. Okay, because just being a just helping them to to talk about it really works and helps them through through dealing with with those thoughts. Okay, you've got to explore frequency. That is how often duration, that is how long and intensity, how debilitating is it, is it affecting their functioning, can they work, can they do things outside when they're sitting alone is this all that's been going on in their minds. So that's ideation you you you check on frequency. How often, how many times have you thought about it yesterday from when have you been thinking about it when it starts to happen how long does it take on. How does this affect your day to day function so these are ways that that you find that out. You assess the plan. Now it is. Again, there is a acronym here it's called slap. Okay, which means slap is s is for specificity specificity specific details. What have you planned. What did you do or how are you what what are your thoughts or how are you planning to carry this out. So they will say, I went to the store yesterday. What did you buy. I bought 100 pills. What are those pills, whatever they say. Where did you read about the spills. Maybe I looked it up in the internet. What do you think these builds do. If I take five, this is what if I take 10s what if I take 20 this is what will happen so be specific about it or when, when did you consider doing it. I consider doing it when nobody's at home. I know they go to the office I go this this and I'm alone at this point of time. That's when I hope to do it. Okay, so being very, very specific about details of the plan. Okay, L is the leadality leadality means how much does it kill how dangerous is it. What is their plan and how dangerous is it like for example if they were to say, you know I want to kill myself but I'm going to take five bills of rest. Okay, it's not going to kill them it is it is definitely going to going to significantly cause physical issues. Okay, so there you know it kind of helps you understand that there hasn't been too much of a research on that. Okay, or are they are they doing multiple things like for example, you know they hang themselves and they take pills to ensure that the plan is being executed completely so what is the leadality of the plan. Okay, availability of the means how are they going to get it how are they procuring it who all have they involved in it what have they done to get it where are they hiding it. You know what what's going on that proximity of social support is who is there at the home who is who is around right now in their lives that can get support and help from now this is extremely important. Okay, you should never close as a call or interaction with somebody until and unless you determine this who is someone you can reach out to tell me the names of two or three people who we can reach out to right now so that you can be helped. Okay, someone you trust who who can be helped either through a phone call or through a message or through through some way, you know, doing that and this is something that is very, very important. Because remember you as a counselor or a pastor or a minister are not going to be living alongside with them. Okay, they need to have you need to have somebody that you can you can you can inform. Generally what what we also need to do is inform someone with the permission of the person saying that you know we're doing this because because we need to keep you safe and it matters to me for your safety. And so I need to involve a person so that they would support you through that we can talk to them so that needs to be done this last part of the proximity of a support system is something that requires to be done. Next you would look it is the intent. What has been the intention behind the suicide. Okay, looking at what are what can be further reasons for living so if you look we know when we were talking with Chaya, although it is done very badly. You know, we looked for any reason for living, you know, okay, work is not okay, home is not okay, this is not okay but church there's something that's there. So generally when you're looking at intent you're also helping to highlight that so that they get a sense of hope, or a sense of purpose on to something. Okay, you also look back into the severity of the attempts that have been done earlier, because if there is someone who is attempted earlier there are double chances that it can help. There are double chances that it can happen forward. Okay, so when you're assessing the intent you look to see if it is absent. If it's low if it is moderate or high and of course you need to whatever it is however the intention is, you know, you need to take it seriously and get get the support that they need. So something just to add, when someone is depressed, again, when someone comes to you with depression, this is always something you will ask whether they are suicidal or not. So if they say yes, okay, now I'm just going to the left side of the right side, your right side of the chart, okay, you ask about depression if they say yes, you ask about suicide. Okay, if they say yes, you need to do all this, ask about intensity, ask about suicide plans, ask about intention. Okay, and if all of this has a greater place of yes, then you're looking at how is it that they can stay safe by arranging help by informing family or closed ones and really coming up with a plan of how they can stay safe. So you after this, you need to go to a place of, let's just talk about how till we meet again next time, what is it that you're going to do to help yourself deal with what you are feeling. Okay, so you're discussing ways to stay safe and you are coming in a measure to stay safe and something that I always do is I build a contract with them. So can you and I have a contract that at any point of time you have these significant feelings, you will reach out to me, give me a call or write a message to me or meet those other support systems that are there. Would you do that? So I build a contract. So you know, because they sometimes want to honor the contract, I find that that plan helps many times. You know, they are able to follow through and how they say, you know, like, like this person I was talking to you about, he said, you know, I felt this so intensely, but I remembered what you said and I reached out to this friend, a person who he had in mind, went and spoke to him. And he said I felt much better doing that. So that just having that contract in itself helps them to significantly follow through something and keep away the plan. Okay, now what do we do to minister? How do we minister? So remember the approach to help is very, very significant when we're looking at helping people. Often, you know, we sometimes just take on a spiritual explanation. So, so many people see depression or suicide as is very linked to unbelief and sin. Okay, so treatment for this sin is spiritual, is spiritual. And that's why, you know, you repent and you renew your faith in God. So if you remember with Shay, that's what I was attempting to do. Okay. But remember, that's something, although that may be needed at a point of time, that is something that that we've got to be careful about. Okay, so even even that exhortation to return to God can can definitely make them feel even more, even more guilty or the fact that they need to confess all that they're feeling can make them feel even more guilty. Okay, so this is how some one group of people do it. Another group of people believe that it's only psychological that they feel it is it stems from something that's very internal. Okay, that they see it as a that it's a self expression as as the remedy and the and they tell the person that you know you should psychologically deal with it. That's one. The third group is one who entirely sees it as a medical condition. Okay, that is, it is a product of a chemical imbalance and all of that. But the one who can blend all of this approaches together gets an overall perspective and is better prepared to respond to someone who is suicidal or depressed. Okay, so it's not just understanding it physically and psychologically it's understanding it socially and understanding it spiritually and that's what we weave in to to helping a person. But in the in the beginning as soon as someone comes in and tells you about this, what is it that is most important is to be a compassionate listener. That's the first and foremost thing that you do it's to just help to listen. Okay, because while you're doing that, you're also giving the person a space to heal you're giving the person a space to know that someone cares enough for you to actually help you pour out as they are listening. Okay, so listening what does it do it shows care and empathy. Something we need to avoid doing is to minimize the pain that they are feeling we we we should be careful not to bring about this. You know the statement everything's okay, or you know you have no reason to feel this way rather you, you know your, your responses something that we that that is written down here you know I can see how hopeless you feel. But I, but I believe you know you and I can work this out together or I do hear that you're wanting help. So, or saying something like I can see how hopeless you feel, or I can. You know, again, just just being very simple and practical like let's say someone's just come on on the way, but you know with a coffee or you know having coffee with somebody and somebody saying that so you know let's go for a walk and let's talk more I'm here for you but you know let me hear you know what what's happening let's let's figure out something how you can get help I want to be with you as you get help from a counselor you get help from a pastor but I want to walk alongside with you just that much is in fact, you know very very helpful. Remember that in times like this change can be slow. It's trying to it is not your what you're doing is you're responding to their frustration you're responding to their to all of that. That's that's anxiety provoking for them. So that's what you are doing so you you're you're helping them to know that you are with them walking alongside with them and standing with them to follow up the next plans as well, even when they are not able to see it. You are helping them to follow the next plan. The next thing is being an empathetic responder. Okay, now this it's not just listening, but also your responding. Now, how are some ways to start the conversation so this is something that you could start off like you're observing somebody who is who is depressed or who is suicidal so you could begin by saying something. Any of these you know I've been feeling concerned about you lately. I've noticed some differences in you and wondered how you're doing I wanted to check in with you because you have seemed. You're seen pretty down lately so these are just those conversations starters. What are the questions you can ask. When did you begin feeling this way did something happen that make you start feeling this way. What is the best support I can give you right now. Have you thought about getting help. What can I do with you to seek help right away who else can we talk to you know these questions in itself can be very very helpful. What is it that you can say again as a responder. Again, these are all suggestions but you know very helpful especially when you don't know how to bring about something. First, I feel sorry you feel this way I really want to help you or I want you to live. I am on your side we work through this I've seen that this is very helpful. You know especially for me this has been extremely helpful when I've expressed the desire that they are important that they are valuable that I see I see and respect. You know what what their thoughts and all are but I would like them to to live and that I am with them that really seems to click a bulb for them because they just see someone alongside. Okay, next thing is you may not believe it now but the way you're feeling will definitely change and this ties into the last one, you know, by helping them see when you want to give up tell yourself you will hold on for one day one hour one minute whatever you can manage so you're helping them live in the present, rather than making them look at what is going to happen. Years from now offer the tomorrow just allowing them to focus on the present. Okay, or saying things like I may not be able to understand exactly how you feel, but I care about you and I really want to help you in whatever way possible. So these are ways that that you can build up that responses that is empathetic. What is it that you don't say. Okay, and quickly, oh come on you will get over this don't be such a drama queen. How could you think of suicide your life's not that bad. Suicide is selfish and cowardly you have your kids to live for others have problems more than you will go to hell if you die by suicide. If you do you will be hurting me. Okay, so these are all unacceptable ways of bringing up bringing up things. Okay. What is your, what is your goal. So basically, that are in short if you're going to look up goals, you're first off goals. Okay, I'm not talking about goals for weeks and months your first hand goal is one listening and being empathetic, establishing that trusting relationship, prevention contracts. Okay, so you're kind of building a contract. Okay, and you don't have to have a written contract, a verbal one is as fine, because you're, you're, you're saying okay from till the next time we meet, or maybe till I talk to you in the evening so always give them that you know when I talk to you next. So there is something to look forward to. Okay, or when they have that is this the mind says okay, I'm supposed to be talking to so and so by this evening building those prevention contracts is very helpful. Safety planning. What can they do now this safety planning is of course is done by by talking to others or meeting with, I mean, getting contacts, their family contacts or people who can keep them giving them instructions of getting them help like for example if they're if they're highly depressed, getting them mental health help, maybe taking them to a doctor, moving them out from the place which may be risky like let's say if it's a place where they're living alone, moving them out from there where they can live with company, keeping away sharp objects, keeping away any ingestible items, checking to see if there are medications, all of that is something that you know and keeping a watch over you know where they're going. So till a point of time that they are able to have established help, and of course, alternatives to suicide. So, what do you mean by alternatives to suicide is you help them and you're getting them to think about the next time you feel this way. What are the other what are things that you will do to keep yourself safe or to keep yourself away from these thoughts. Okay, so they may say I will call you I will text you, or I will, you know, I will maybe I'll go make a cup of coffee or I will just go outside for a walk, some alternatives that you plan alongside with them, so that they know if I feel this way these are five, six things that I have decided to do by myself. Okay. I would want to, yeah, so just one more slide and then I want to show you all a video. Okay, what do you not do is do not argue with them. Okay, that they can't do this, like the arguing is what I did with Shai I think, is that you know you have kids, you have your parents, what will they feel that's that's that's an argument. Okay, or have you thought about eternity, what's going to happen then. Okay, that's that's again very subtle argument, but avoid that ignore. Do not ignore a suicidal threat, take it serious seriously. You do not act shocked or lecture about how wrong it is. Okay, either morally, spiritually, emotionally, socially, you don't do that. Do not agree to be sworn into secrecy. They may say, you know, I want to tell you something, I'm not told anybody this, and I'm telling you something. Okay. And so the first, as soon as I hear something like that, I'll say, I would be, I would be willing to keep this confidential only if it doesn't have a risk to your life, because I care for your life. Okay. And I haven't seen people not bringing out that information because I've said that's okay, that I'm not going to tell you what it is. I've never had that experience, because I think it's it this also comes in between the relationship, offer ways to fix their problem or give advice, like they're saying, I've lost my money, you know, why don't you take a loan, or why don't you get remarried, or why don't you divorce him, none of that. Do not offer any kind of solutions or giving advice. All that you are required to do is be yourself. Don't be afraid to ask if they're depressed, listen and reassure help, tell a family member or a close associate, make a list of some supports they can turn to and assess that the risk, okay, the plan, the means, the time, the intention. This is what we are looking at doing. Okay. I'm just going to play a video. I'm just going to hope that you're like going to hear the sound. If you're larned, please let me know. I think the first thing is to take them seriously. That's probably the most important thing that if someone is expressed to you that they've been thinking about harming themselves, thinking about suicide, you need to take them seriously. Now, what you do after that I think depends on how much experience you have in assessing people with suicidal thoughts. So if you're just a great friend but don't have a lot of training in terms of how do you actually probe someone in their thinking, then I think the appropriate next step is get someone else involved who has some greater experience and do it right then with the person in your presence. Is there someone that we can call right now? Who else can we bring into the group to help you with the struggle? Maybe a pastor, maybe a friend who is a counselor, or maybe other people. But that would be I think the first thing is to enlarge the group of people who are helping this person and can walk with them and assess their level of suicidality. If you're someone who has that kind of training, feels pretty comfortable assessing where someone stands in terms of their suicidal thinking, then I think you continue to probe with questions and very specific questions. Well, tell me what you mean by that. Sometimes people will give more of a vague I don't want to live anymore or I wish I were dead. And it is more of a passive kind of thing. And when you ask them further about that, they will say, I don't want to do anything to harm myself. I'm not really thought about doing anything to harm myself, but I just I wish I would die in my sleep or I wish I would get hit by a car or something like that. And it's that's a different level of danger than someone who as you ask questions, they you find that they actually have a well developed plan. Maybe they're going to take a bunch of pills or they thought about using a firearm and you find out that in fact they have a firearm and they have a gun in their house. And as you ask further questions, well, have you have you had ammunition? Yes. Have you loaded the gun? Yes. Have you have you put the gun to your head? I did. What kept you from from pulling the trigger? Getting getting that kind of information is going to help you to know just how imminent this this person's risk is. And so there's a there's a lot more. There's a lot more to that in terms of the kind of assessment you need to make. But you need to make sure that you and someone else at least know where this person stands that they actually not leave your presence if they if they truly are imminently suicidal. Many people as you talk with them about their suicidal thoughts, you find they actually don't have a well developed plan. And they are honestly not wanting to do anything, but they're but they're scared and they're hopeless and they're struggling and sometimes even talking that out actually is a beacon and a ray of hope. But I think the thing that I would stress the most is this is this is something very, very serious. You want to take it seriously. And you want to make sure as is whether it's you or someone else who's more experienced is going through a proper assessment of the person's level of danger. And if they are truly a danger to to themselves, then then there may be other steps that need to be taking in terms of hospitalization and other things like that. But you have to get to that level of clarity and detail to know where a person really stands. Okay. I hope you were able to see that. Okay. Great. Okay. All right. Yes, Christopher. Go ahead. Thank you. Have a question. Christopher, come here. You too. Can you hear me now? Yeah, yeah. Yes, no, I had a question with regards to you had mentioned earlier that, you know, three believers had had, you know, gone ahead and committed suicide. I wanted to understand from your side in that process of, you know, working with them, you know, in that, in that situation, what were some things that, you know, possibly did not work well or did not, you know, did not really sort of, you know, get them to a point where, you know, they would have, they would have reversed that decision. Yeah. I mean, I understand some of this. Maybe it is, you know, I don't know how it is, but it may be painful for you. But I just wanted to understand, you know, what, what could be some of those, some of those, some of those points. So, two out of three was diagnosed with significant depression. And they, both of them, in fact, were battling the, this point of healing, why healing hadn't come upon them. And, you know, have battled the decision of getting off medication, because they have believed that, you know, in the condition that they are in, you know, if substituting their faith, then they are putting God down. So, both of them had gone off medication for a significant period of time. And this was depression since for a long season of time. And they'd got off medications because of their fear that they were not really putting their faith in God. And, yeah, so that's, that was, that were two of them. The, the other one was a more an impulsive act as a result of ongoing stressors, ongoing issues, and was an inability to cope with what was happening, because stressors were not, were not diminishing in any way. Nobody was willing for help in the extended, in the extended circle that the person was in. So out of these three people, too, were because of depression, got off medication. And the other one was more impulsive. So in the case of the impulsive one, I think I heard somewhere that, you know, there are, there are people who talk about suicide. And again, they're different, you know, sort of, you know, levels or, you know, how they, you know, how they talk about it. But it comes, it comes to a stage where they don't actually talk about it and yet it happens. And I don't know whether there is some something that is that that is actually, you know, sort of symptomatic of, you know, that condition, or sign which, which, which will point to that fact that, you know, they don't talk about it, and that, you know, impulsively, it just happens. So maybe I don't know any, anything that you can talk about, talk through on that point. So in, in general, there will be certain warning signs. It may not be in the form of a, of a conversation or a talk, but it will be there in other signs and behaviors. So it could be either a withdrawal, it could be certain acts, it could be something. I mean, we did speak about all of those factors. It usually, there is something that's identifiable. Isolation, often a lot of this, but, but not for those who have personality issues, you may not see too much of an isolation, there's a lot more of a cry there. But I'd see a lot of those who have significant mental health concerns that isolation increases. And then it becomes like a, that also could be just an impulsive way, not something that they have thought about, but just that inability to cope with the distress that they are going through. Yeah. Kennedy. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Can you talk about a situation where people, young boys or girls, are being radicalized into religion, where they can become suicide bombers. And in cases where some of these, these attendants, they tend to run in a family, it's more of a generational path. Sorry, Kennedy. I'm not able to follow. Is there something to talk about a boy? No. Where boys are radicalized there. Okay. They're radicalized to become suicide bombers. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Or they can commit these acts of atrocities. To others, they will even die in the process. Like these young Muslim boys, I think they're being radicalized there to join these terror groups. Okay. That's, that's a lot more to do with homicide that they are, they, they, they are taught that they are to die for a cause. Right. And that happens a lot more because they have been, they have been cultured and taught that that is the purpose of their lives. Not something that they would want to do on their own, but they are, you know, they are taught that they are doing so for in the name of religion or in the name of a country or in the name of something that will give them. And usually you would see this in a specific culture where they are given higher rewards out in heaven. So they are brainwashed that way. I think there are, there are a lot of testimonies that you will see of how young boys are been brainwashed to believe that if they were to give up their lives. It would be, it would be very rewarding for them at a point of time brainwashed in the sense of, you know, they taught, they taught that over and over again that this is the purpose of their lives. And this is what they God would want them to do and carry out. And so that becomes very impressionable in them. So that becomes a lot more as homicide. Yeah. Okay. Okay, we're, we're close to finishing off with the hour. There are certain scripture signs that bring about, you know, certain things for to show us that yes, scripture prohibits suicide. Okay. And there are certain scriptures and I'm just encouraging you to just take a read through that and also certain verses that, you know, over time, you can, you can help people with. But I just want to bring about one note and I think it came in as a question last week in our mentoring hour about what happens to those, you know, suicide is one, but, you know, the person who dies. Of course, the pain and the suffering is immense for the family. And it is a difficult problem. You know, you, the lot of times that are questions that are asked about, where does this person go, you know, if they have committed if there's a believer have committed sin, committed suicide, what happens. And I think so one of the things that and I want to say this and we will close one of the things that we need to help families is to help them to see that the death of the individual was not their fault. And it's important to keep helping them see this over and over again, and also that, you know, to help them to release what they're going through to be able to get help. The question that they ask about is, was it sin that the person person did. Now we can agree that yes, suicide is sin because it definitely involves taking of a human life. They are not the right sticking of a human life. But I would say is this sin different from any other sin. Is it somehow ineligible to come under, you know, the healing and the redeeming power of Jesus's death on the cross. Now that's why some I know some there is a group that says yes and they argue that the act of ending one's own life is that unforgivable sin. Because it doesn't leave chance for repentance because you know you need repentance is understood to be a necessary condition for forgiveness. But you know that you know that this this is definitely not assuring, but I think we also need to see that Christ Jesus's atonement covers every sin and everything that can could have ever been committed, or you know, every will ever commit. So this includes our past, our present and our future sins and this can be a bit comforting reflection in the case of suicide victims and their family, you know, who were faithful and dedicated followers who, you know, whose whose people committed suicide or whose family who's committed suicide have been followers Jesus. So what the hope that we're giving is that if we believe that the sacrifice of Jesus covers every sin, the sin of taking one's life can be no different than any other sin. Okay, so I don't think I personally I'm not in a position to really say what opinion is correct. But the Bible does say, you know, in Romans 11 33 that God's grace and mercy are beyond our understanding and his judgments are unsearchable and beyond our knowing. And it also says, you know, nothing can separate us from the love of God and in Christ Jesus our Lord, not neither death, no life, no angels, no rulers, no things present, no things to come, nothing in all of creation. So, you know, we look towards hope to know that, you know, Jesus is all knowing is all understanding and what we are to do is with the families to be able to help them through those hard questions. And, you know, search scripture alongside with them and give them the hope that many things are maybe even beyond our understanding. And that God's atonement is enough for for everything and you know, encourage them with with those words. Okay. All right. Thank you so much. I know we've overshot time today, but thank you so much for all your patient listening and let's just quickly just take some time to pray. Any father we thank you for this lesson God as hard as it is. This God is hard to explain hard to understand. But God we just call you sovereign and called you Lord to step into situations where we are called to minister to help people who are suicidal to help families who may have had members who've gone through this atrocious. issue Father Lord we pray that you give us the wisdom we need that the Holy Spirit will help us to minister appropriate and rightly to those in their time of need. Father we look to you for understanding greater revelation through all of this. Thank you God because you have promised to walk with people who go through these difficulties Lord I pray for my class today. And all those who are listening. Anybody God who who senses and feels this pressure. Holy Spirit I pray that you will meet with them to reach out and to seek the appropriate help they need Lord to be able to just seek the support and love and unburdened themselves. Father I pray that that this would be an answer to their prayer. Thank you Father for being with each one of us. We ask Lord that you continue working in our lives Lord till we meet again. We pray God that you will continue your leading and guiding over our lives. In Jesus name we pray. Amen. Thank you everybody. God bless and we will meet next week. Have a great week ahead. Thank you. Bye bye. Thank you. God bless you. Thank you everyone. Thank you.