 Anyway, alright, ready? OK, sorry, no problem, let's do it. Alright, what's up everybody? Drew here. Holly's getting that anxiety guy.com back with my buddy Holly from all the way from Mallorca looking cool in the library. Going on house. Yeah, pretty good. Well, actually pretty bad. I've been quite sick the last few days and. But you know, I'll get through. I just want to apologize in advance for any coffin in this episode. Yes, before we went on the air, Holly just swigging cough medicine like. So she gets a little woozy just it's OK. That's not a nonsense. It's totally fine. So what we're going to do today is we're going to read aloud all of the books in Holly's library. So yeah, awesome. Yeah, seven years. I think we calculated once it will probably take seven years to read all the books. Good. I don't know. Well, Skype record that long. So anyway, today we want to talk about like the nuts and bolts of exposure and maybe like clarifying some misconceptions that we see a lot of people have, especially in the Facebook group. So I'll say right up front if you're not in the group, follow link in the description and join the group. So. Shoot, what do you got? I mean, you had some really, I think you had some good topics here and a good idea of what's going on. Yeah, well, what I just wanted to say really was that because I feel like if I joined the group now when I was, you know, back really suffering with anxiety, I would probably think like. But I don't. I don't need. I don't really get exposure because I was out and about doing everything. I was working. I was traveling. I was doing everything, but I was just panicking the whole time I was doing it. I didn't really have specific triggers. It was just sort of randomly. All the time. And so I was like, but how can I do exposure when it's just all the time and there's nothing I'm avoiding. And so I see also other people in the group that are like that, but then also I see other people. Who, I mean, don't get me wrong. I had my agoraphobic phase as well, but in the end I was doing everything and I still wasn't getting better until I learned what I had to do. And yeah, and I see other people in the group and some people are saying like, I don't get it. I'm going out every day. I'm doing this exposure. I'm doing it and I'm doing it and every day and I'm still panicking in this situation. Like how, what am I doing wrong? Yeah. Or they think the exposure is just the act of doing it. Yeah. As long as I go there, then that's exposed. And then I should be getting better. Yeah. It's a much settler. Yeah. There's a couple of things we should talk about here. We should talk about what, because people ask all the time, what does it look like? They literally ask the question, what does it look like? So we could talk about, I think, what it looks like when you're actually engaged. Well, people will say like, okay, so I'm supposed to do this thing. Tell me exactly what that looks like. In other words, give me step by step what I'm supposed to be doing. We might not be able to do step by step, but we can give a rough idea of like just going to the place that makes you anxious isn't exposure. There's more to it. Yeah. And then I think the other thing that we should probably talk about is like actually doing it in a systematic way, which is another thing that I think people miss. They just think like, well, I do it. I go to the supermarket when I need to, when I pick my kids from school and I need to, but then they retreat all the rest of the time. So they're not actually doing it systematically and repeatedly. That's another error that I see. So what does it look like? Like, okay, so you're going to do that. Now it's time to do some exposure and pick a place. I don't care what it is. You're going to drive around. You can get in the car and drive away from the house. That makes you panic. It's not just the driving. It's not just the driving. It's about what you do with that panic, right? So, I mean, for me, it was kind of a different, slightly different thing because my biggest thing that I did was that I took a Benzo when I was feeling anxious to sort of, in my mind, to get me out and about, to keep me doing stuff and going places and working and everything. The only way I could get through, which we see people do that a lot, right? I got through it. I mean, I would have got through that anyway. You don't get through it because you're never in any possibility of not getting through. Do you know what I mean? Right. You're always going to make it. Yeah. You're always going to make it because you felt terrible. Yeah. So, but I thought that taking a Benzo was the one thing that was allowing me to get out and about and keep doing stuff despite the panic. And so for me, real recovery came in the end by taking away, it's when I realized that something clicked about avoidance and that it wasn't just avoidance on this big grand scale of like, oh, I'm avoiding going to the supermarket or I'm avoiding going to work and stuff because I was like, I'm not avoiding anything. So why am I still ill? And it's because I was avoiding the actual panic on the micro scale when it hit. So when I was feeling panicky, no matter where I was in the world, I was like, oh, God, I wish I didn't feel like this. I'll take something to try and make it go away or I'll do all these crazy little safety behaviors to try and like, hang on in there whilst, you know, like the panic's there and it was completely the wrong message that I was sending to my brain. Totally. And that I think that's what most people are doing. So they're saying, or a lot, a lot of people are doing, I'll say. And I'm probably guilty of, I forget that like people come into the group or they're new to this, they don't understand the basics of cognitive behavioral therapy. So in the end, I think it's really common to say, well, but I'm out. I'm out of doing all these things and it's not making me any better. But what you just said is the key. So when you go out and do those things, first of all, you will be anxious because you're conditioned to be anxious in that situation. You may, you'll be terrified. You might even have a full-blown panic attack. You'd be super uncomfortable. It's what you do when it happens that defines the act as exposure. Yeah. And dropping all of those safety things for you was a benzo and all your little quirks. And I had them. We all had them. Yeah. And mints and just. Right. And the water. Like pinching and tensing. You know. Tensing. Yeah. Counting the bumps on the steering wheel and all these things. Distraction. Talk to me. Give me a quiz. Let's do some maths. Like anything. Exactly. Let me call somebody and get on the phone and talk to them. So exposure is really what happens. Not when you just go out. It's what happens when you experience those feelings of panic and fear and terror and being uncomfortable and thinking that you're in danger. Exposure is the part where you let yourself actually fully experience those things without trying to save yourself. Or run. Yeah. Yeah. And that the mechanism there is that when you do that, because if you go out and you go and do your exposure, whatever you think that is driving or whatever it is and you panic and you immediately go into tensing, poking, prodding, scratching, counting, distracting, pill-popping, whatever it is. And then you get out of that situation. What you've taught yourself, the actual mechanism is that the poking, the pulling on my ear, the running my hands through my head, the snapping the rubber band, the talking to my sister on the phone, that's what got me through it. And that's not what got you through it. I made it. Like I made it. So you have taught yourself that those things saved you from this horrible thing. And you got through it because you were able to talk to somebody or whatever it is, do a quiz or listen to sing to with the radio or whatever that is. So that's why the exposure part kicks in when you do nothing, when you just panic. Yeah. Go ahead. So I think the word, the word exposure in itself to me was always quite confusing because I thought it meant, I think it comes from like when, or it might not, but in my head it's like when someone has a phobia you have to expose them to this thing to correct. And the reason, but what, so what made sort of sense was that I realized that the exposure to the thing that makes you anxious is the important thing. So if your only trigger is driving for instance, then like, and you're fine, walk into the shops or whatever. Well, good for you. So like the only exposure you need to do, like, oh, I've only had that, you know, the only exposure you've got to do is to get in the car. And obviously, like then you get hit with the, you know, the panic and everything, but that's why you have to do that exposure is to keep getting in the car is so that you can learn what you have to do when you panic. It's not so you can learn how to sit in the car so much. It's so that you can learn how to deal with the panic. But if your trigger is like literally everything or nothing and it's just completely random and you can be sitting on your sofa watching TV and you get a panic attack because that's what it was like for me. Right. This idea of doing exposures I didn't understand because I was like, but there's nothing, I don't have a phobia of it. I'm not, I used to say I'm not scared of anything. I'm only scared of a panic attack. And that's when I sort of realized that like, so my phobia is a panic attack. Yes. Yes. Any time that panic attack comes on is a chance to practice. That is my exposure, you know. Correct. That is your exposure. That's the difference between a simple phobia and the anxiety disorders like the panic disorder, which is a non-specific phobia. So it's not the being in the car or the supermarket or the being home alone or any of those things. It's not being at the wedding or getting on a plane. It's the panic itself that you are afraid of. So exposure happens any time you get into an anxious or panicky situation. So it doesn't matter. And that's why it also, and when you learn to react the same way every time, it doesn't matter where you are, whether it's the morning work and school run, the plane, the vacation, it doesn't matter, or sitting in your living having panic attack, the reaction is always the same. And when you learn that reaction and you practice it again and again and again, all of those things that seem like, well, everything's a challenge. I can't drive. I can't walk. I can't leave the house. It'll all improve at the same time. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. It might sound frustrating for some people when we keep saying like, I don't know, or it's some sort of like actual physical illness thing that you have that causes anxiety because, you know, there's stuff out there that does, you know, sort of treat your anxiety and stuff. Right. Have I just, there's my camera. What did I do? I don't know. It's okay. We got it. What happened? I'm looking at what looks to be. I don't know how to flip the camera. Oh, there it is. There you go. Congratulations. We'll just edit that part out. No problem. What was I saying? You're saying that it doesn't matter what the cause is. If it's, is it hormonal? Is it physical? Is it past abuse? Yeah, because you do get physical things that will cause anxiety and you might never be able to get rid of that. And every time it's your time in the month if you're a woman, yeah, maybe you will be much more prone to anxiety and there's not anything that you do about that. Right. But if you learn how to address anxiety itself, like then it doesn't, it doesn't matter because because the anxiety and the panic attacks and stuff, it's only an issue when you're, it's only your reaction to it. That's actually the problem. It's not the panic attack. It's not the anxiety. It's not as, it's not this huge thing that you think it is. It isn't. It's just a few physical symptoms and some sort of like a slight lack of rationale, you know, like, right? Because the issue, the issue is not. The issue is not being anxious. It's being anxious about being anxious. That's the problem. So that's why in this situation maybe you'll understand exposure better if you realize that your phobia is not the driving or the, oh no, it's my time of the month and I'm going to feel terrible or it's not any of those things. Your phobia is the feeling of anxiety and panic. So your job is to expose yourself to being anxious and panicking. That's the deal. Yeah. And that's why also which is probably really frustrating when we say we don't care what the symptoms are. We don't care what the causes. We don't care what the symptoms are because it doesn't matter because if you address the symptoms and each symptom differently and it's got a special case with this symptom, that symptom, but you can to a degree sort of learn how to be more accepting of them with different things. But at the end of the day, it's not the thing. It's the fear. It's the fear. Correct. Correct. That matters. It's always matters. Right. And so learning the better, the product. So here's the deal. And I say this all the time. You have to be afraid to learn not to be afraid. So but you have to learn to be afraid productively, which is don't brace yourself. You're not trying to brace or fight or save yourself or hang on to like you or you're not staving off some horrible fate. You just have to do nothing and let that fate happen. That's how you do exposure. Let the insanity come or the fainting or the falling down or the heart attack or the stroke or the death. Let it come. Because it won't. And then you will teach your brain that it won't come. You don't have to save yourself. And all those things you've been doing and what you think has been exposure have been unneeded, completely unneeded. So yeah, the exposure is not to the place or the thing. It's to the feelings. So that's the object that came. Yeah. I think the other thing that we should probably talk about for a minute is the fact that exposures best is most effective when it's actually systematic and repetitive and planned. Yeah. Sometimes, you know. Planned is a big thing actually. Yeah. Planned is a big thing. So a lot of times, and you know what? Just living your life can be part of it too. If you have no choice but, you know, bring the kids to school and do the grocery shopping, then yes, you'll have to do it. You might have to now change the way you're doing that to do it more productively as opposed to the way you used to do it. But it's not enough to just say, I have a thing coming up, so I'm going to do that thing in three days. I'm going to be in the house and avoiding everything for the three days prior. And then afterwards, I'll avoid everything again until the next thing that I'm forced to do. No, it doesn't work like that. It won't work that way. You can't just do one big thing and then nothing. Right. It's going to be small steps systematically, like, and consequentially. That's exactly right. Yeah, sure. Well, you have to take the small steps like every day repeatedly, systematically, incrementally. That's how exposure works. So it doesn't work by living in your bubble 75% of the time, only doing the things that you have to do and then thinking that that's exposure that's actually not, I mean, it all counts in some little way. But unfortunately, we don't unlearn those responses by thinking about them or talking about them or discussing them or reviewing them. You have to have experiences and you have to have a lot of them ended up. Unfortunately, that's just the way it works. We can learn the phobia instantly. It just takes a lot of repetition to unlearn the phobia. It sucks, but oh well. Understanding it is great, but it's not enough. You then have to put it into practice. It's not enough. It's not enough at all. So doing it incrementally in a systematic way and repetitively is super important. I think a lot of people forget that, too. Like pick the thing that makes pick one thing that you have been avoiding because you're afraid of how you feel when you do it and just start doing that thing every single day as often as you possibly can in the most productive way. By the way, not making you feel anxious is not a success. It's nice for you that you didn't feel anxious, but it's not like you haven't taught your brain a lesson. You've not taught yourself anything through not feeling anxious. Good for you, but do something that makes you anxious or just trying to get anxious. Yeah, and if you don't, that's okay. People ask that all the time. I went, I did my exposure and I felt fine. Did I fail? No, you didn't fail. You just had a good day. That's great. But then if you do it the next day and you feel anxious, that's not a setback. No. That's the opposite of a setback. That's a set forward. Right. When you go into that situation that you usually avoid because you don't like to panic. So you don't do that thing. When you do it and you panic, that's not a setback. The progress happens when you panic, but you do it constructively and you teach yourself a lesson when it happens. The only thing that I would probably say, and I never like to use the term fail, but like sometimes we do fail like we're human beings. We make mistakes. The only mistake is, wow, I was doing great. And we get how often have we heard this. I was doing great for the last three weeks, but I had no panic and anxiety and it all came crashing down today because I had a panic attack. That's not crashing down. Right. That was an opportunity to learn something. That's where you learn. Right. So it's only crashing down if you have that panic attack and you immediately run back to your safe place, pop your medicine, call your mom. Like if you go back and do all those safety behaviors, then maybe you got to do it again. But that's why when that happens to people, I mean sometimes I'm kind of... And by the way that will... Yeah. It will happen because it's really hard. Right. It is simple, but it's very, very difficult to implement. When you're in, especially in a full panic attack, it is so hard to remember. I mean, tattoo something on your wrist if you have to do it. Yeah. Like just write something down. Go unprepared. Yes. But that's why doing it over and over, like repetitively and in a systematic way, you learn the skill. It's like an athlete practicing their skill. They do it every day so that they're good at it. You can't just say, oh, okay. Thanks, Holly, for telling me how to do it. I'm never going to do it and expect to be good at it when I have to do it. It'll never work that way. So you have to do it a lot. You do it over and over and over. And sometimes you have a better outcome than another. But the bad... It's never a bad outcome because you were afraid. Never. How you felt is never the... is the measure of the outcome. It's never the measure of the outcome. You're going to feel like shit. That's the way it is. Just expect that to happen. It's horrible. I'm sorry. It's horrible. I know. But I think it's important for people to really fully grasp that and that you're still... that's not what makes you not okay. Like being uncomfortable and afraid and feeling like you're in danger or you're going to die. You're still okay. And let's define okay. You did not die. You did not pass out. You did not fall over. You did not cause a car wreck. You did not have a stroke or go insane. You were okay. You only thought you were going to do those things. Yeah. But thinking that that's going to happen doesn't make it true. So you have to define... You have to define panic as still being okay. Which is talking to people to... You know. Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. Totally. I had a panic attack the other day. You know, I've been really sick and then whenever I'm sick I just get more anxious. It just happens. You know, I'm just hardwired that way for whatever reason. Right. And I was at work playing a gig. And then after, you know, and obviously through the gig I was completely fine and on best form and then feeling terrible again and thinking I was going to explode in the middle of a song and then feeling fine again, you know, all this sort of up and down. Yeah. And then after the gig I packed all my gear away and I had to put my car quite far away and I was walking along like the river bank. Not the river bank, the sea bank. We don't have a river. It's the sea. I was walking along like the sea and I was walking to my car and I was so anxious and I caught myself and I stopped still and I was like going, ugh. And then because I felt like I was literally about to like melt into the pavement and all my organs would just sort of float into the sea in a sort of red puddle, you know. And I was thinking like, oh, and by stopping like this I've stopped that happening. And then I just sort of like remembered everything and laughed and just said, that's ridiculous. And then just relaxed to my body and walked to my car and I didn't actually think about it again, you know, like, but even now, you know, I do catch myself in moments, in fleeting moments where I forget, you know, and I'm just like, oh my God, I stopped myself from, you know, mountain into an organ full puddle. That would have been so, so messy, so messy. So messy. That wouldn't have happened. Right. That's a nasty way to go. But nothing I was doing. You know, if I really genuinely thought that was what happened and like nothing I was doing made like stop intense on the street because if I'd taken one more step, maybe that would have actually happened. You know, and I just was like, what are you doing, Holly? And then looked at my wrist that says do panic. And I was like, let it come. It's fine. It's just a panic attack. But that's the experience and you've done it so, so, so long. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. People are probably watching and thinking like, well, that's great, but there's no way I'm going to do that. No, I'm sure it was super hard the first time you did it too. And I will tell you the same thing. Like there are times when I find myself doing the same things. Same things. Like we're human beings and I think our initial reaction to that adrenaline hit is always the same. Of course. Yours, mine. You just feel terrified. Right. And that's just chemistry. You can't stop that. So that's the first fear that Dr. Weeks always talked about. Like we all have that and it will never, ever, ever go away. That's okay. And I sometimes find the same thing. If I'm feeling anxiety for something, that same thing, like wait a minute. Why am I not breathing? Hello. Yeah. Yeah. Why am I not breathing? But that's just so many thousands of times of doing it and experiencing it. It's all stupid. Yeah. Like whatever. Not nice, but like it was nice to be reminded like how, you know, sort of difficult. It can be in the moment, you know, because when you when you've been out of it a long time, like it's hard to remember just how hard it is. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. And so like it's nice, but it's given me a bit more, you know, like I'm like, oh yeah, that is really difficult. So maybe we should try and explain this thing about that. You know, like, that doesn't make sense. Yeah. Of what it is. So I, hopefully this has been, I think it's been a pretty good explanation. Like what you think has been exposure has probably not been, you know, if you're going into it and you're here. Here's the best test that I always like to think. If you're going into the situation you're probably not doing it right. What do you mean? In other words, like, okay, I need to get in the car and drive. We keep using driving, but that's just an example. So I need, I'm afraid to drive. I have to get in the car to drive. Really and truly, you have to be super honest with yourself and say, what's my goal when I get in this car? Is it just to do the thing and finish it and get out of the car? Right. If it is, then you're probably not fully allowing yourself to be exposed to the thing you fear, which is not the car. It's the anxiety. So your goal when you go into that exposure, when it's planned and you're like, this is, I do my exposure at 10 o'clock on whatever Thursday morning is to say my job now is to go feel like crap for a little while and to teach myself that I'm going to be okay. And if that turns out to be a three-minute drive, that's fine. If it's an hour drive, that's fine too. It doesn't matter. So your goal is not to like, I got to get in the car. I got to do my drive and I got to get out of the car. That's not it. Like then you're kind of skating past feelings. I read a thing once that was about a thing called plans practice. So like it would be like, so for instance, let's say you could sit with a driving thing. If you were, you know, really phobic of like driving or driving really triggered your anxiety, you'd go and just sit in your car. And what you'd do is you already sort of say to yourself, I'm going to allow myself to go to like a level six or seven in panic, right? And so you sort of just gauge that yourself, right? And so you get in and you get in your car and whatever it takes to get you to, and you might be like, oh, I'm feeling like a four. So you turn the ignition on and you back out the driveway and you might just just drive around the block or whatever you call it. And whatever gets you to fit. So, and you might be like, oh, I'm kind of at five, but you're like, yeah, but I told myself, I go to a six today. So I'm going to keep doing it until I get to six. And then once you get to that six, you have to try and stay in it for like five minutes or whatever, you know? Right, right. So you know that there's an end to it. And then you, because you know as soon as you then get out of the car, you're better, but you still like sort of very planned out, said to yourself, I'm going to do this. It's going to be for this length of time at this level of panic, you know, and sort of like, and yeah, the only problem with that is that I find that when you're actually trying to lift it higher, it's kind of hard to do. It's hard, isn't it? I know. But that's good though. Because at first, you'll have no problem lifting it higher at first. Sure, yeah. But when you start getting good at the technique, it will get harder to force it. And that just means that, well, I usually just drive my little two mile or whatever one kilometer radius. Well, if you're having a hard time getting to level six, seven and eight, then it's time to drive to two kilometers. Like that'll do it. That'll kick you up. You know, it'll do it. But I think when we talk about a plan and being systemic and, you know, systematic and methodical about it, that's perfect what you described. I'm going to do this thing at this time on this day. And it will look like this. And I used to say, I don't know how long this drive was going to be, but I will not turn the car back toward home until I can feel my anxiety level begin to drop. Yeah. It didn't happen. Not when it's still going up, but when it actually now starts to come down. You know, to see it right. So that's exactly right. Now, the gut reaction or the instinct is to say, I'm starting to get really afraid I have to go home. That's normal to think that. So I would say, no, I'm starting to get really afraid this is what's supposed to happen now. And I'm going to stay in this situation until I feel myself start to calm down. And I would pick a number of like, well, I need to get to like a level of 50%, not zero. I never made myself get to zero because that's often not realistic. So. But like, all right. So if I hit my peak when I start to feel like going down when I feel 50% better, it's hard to judge. And I've done my job and I'm going to calmly, not run home, but I'm calmly going to end it now. So that worked out really well. So that's kind of what you have to do. So I'm going to get it still in it. It's like getting to it. Yeah. I've seen the hit and run exposures. I don't want to go too much longer, but I've seen that too. What's the hit and run exposure? The hit and run exposure is I'm really afraid to walk to the mailbox. For instance, postbox, whatever you call it where you are. So I'm going to do it. I'm going to get at my courage. I'm going to walk and Billy would used to do this. You've seen this in some of Billy's old videos. Like I'm going to walk to the postbox. I'm going to get at my courage. I'm going to do it. I'm going to get to the post box. Look, I made it. It's not selfie and immediately run. That's the hit and run exposure. Look, I made it to the post box and then boom straight back home. It only works when you stay at the post box. Yeah. While you're feeling anxious and do that constructive thing and surrender to the feelings and let them happen. Like that's, that's when the magic actually happened. It wasn't the getting there because if you get there and then immediately go back. Yeah. I've seen that in driving too. So you drive to it and you immediately turn around and go home. Like that's, that's the hit and run. That matters. Yeah. Yeah. So just one, one other thing that might be useful for anyone. If. Like I used to take a Benzo. So a systematic sort of way of doing, of handling that it wasn't like a Benzo that I took all the time it was a, you know, as and when needed thing. Right. So if anyone has this, this is quite a good method is to be like, I'm feeling really anxious. So when you would go to take that Benzo, you go, I'm going to wait 10 minutes and then I know I can take it. Right. And then so you wait that 10 minutes. You know, you have to sit in that and then and then you take it and then like the next week or whatever, so you do a week of that and then the next week I'll be like, I'm going to wait 20 minutes to take this and like, honestly, like, and then it'll be like half an hour. And most of, I mean, after 15 minutes that you just don't, you forget to take it in the end. Oh my God, it's not the Benzo that brings me out of this anxiety. It's just, you know, and also, you know, I would notice that just the taste of it on my lips, I would be like, he's instantly start to feel better. And I'm like, I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that fast. And it's, you know, the placebo effects of it would work very, very quickly. And so once I started realizing, yeah, yeah, that was quite a good way of like, so I'm going to go longer and longer. And at the end, like, I've just got to do this for 10 minutes. I've got to stay at this level of anxiety. Then I'll take the Benzo always. It would start to come down anyway. And then I'll take it. But I probably don't need to take it, you know, that's a really good, that's a super good technique. That's a really good technique. That's really good. Hey, nice. It's the Holly method. I'll add to that two things. I want to add to that. The other thing is when you turn around and you say, okay, I'm going to exit. Whatever the situation, driving or whatever. Now I'm going to get back to what I consider a safe zone. When you make that turn in that direction, whether it's literally in a car, figuratively, and you turn towards safety, I would bet dollars to the donuts that you take those first few steps toward the safe zone and all of a sudden you will start to feel your anxiety subside. So if suddenly you went from like, oh my God, how am I going to make it home to, oh, all right, I'm almost home. You feel better the closer you get to safe zone, whatever that is, then you have to deny yourself the path back to safety. I'm going to sit in this for three minutes. Yeah, three minutes, five minutes, whatever. Whatever you can do. In the beginning, it might only be 30 seconds, but 30 seconds matters. And then the next day it'll be 45 seconds. I don't care if you have to start with 30 seconds, it doesn't matter. But you'll start to build that up. So you'll recognize that. As soon as you go out the exit and head toward home or whatever safe area it is, you start to feel it already start to come down. Yeah, you got to wait. Don't let that happen immediately. Yeah, whatever it is that that sort of that you go to do when you feel panicky that you know will sort of like freak you down. You got to wait and you know, give it that time before you do it. It's exactly even if it's start with, if you can only start with 30 seconds, that's okay. Just 45 seconds. Anything. The next time. 60 seconds. Yeah, it doesn't matter. So sometimes it's just changing direction. You know, like you used to do it this way. Just to change the direction sometimes is enough to really get the ball rolling. Oh, now I'm going to do it this way. Different way. So there you go. I think we have to mention just quickly before we end it that the Benzo thing, like if you're taking a Benzo regularly, please don't just stop taking the Benzo. No, like we kind of have to say that. We're going to make exposure better. If you're taking it every single day, you have to keep taking it carefully with your doctor. Right. So don't just stop taking that, please. There you go. That's it. All right. I think we're good. 30 minutes. Perfect time. Hey, so you know, we still have to finish the book. So at some point, I think we have a few more chapters to go now. I don't even know where we are. No, I don't know. We'll come back and do them again. I think the chapter is about like if you have a grief or a shame. Yeah. It goes to those. Like quite interesting. I find this quite interesting as well. Yeah, they were. Because I think they address those things that those are those extenuating circumstances. People always say, oh, no, but I have. She covered it. Sorry. She covered it. Grandma, had you covered. That's the way it works. Anyway. All right. Very cool. Thanks, I appreciate you taking the time. Yeah, so yeah. Yeah, you guys later. I'm going to stop recording. Oh, we still record. I'll edit it at the end. Where's the button again? It's over here. Hang on.