 Okay, good morning everyone and welcome to the fireside chat with Millie Narekwago. For those who have just joined us and not yet familiar with the platform, Millie and I will have a casual conversation about our experiences and our collaboration and if there are any questions we encourage you to put it, write them or type them out in the Q&A tool on the right-hand side of your screen. But if you would like to ask some questions live and directly to Millie, you're welcome to join the moderation panel if you click on the button below and we'll take those questions towards the end. So Millie is the Assistant Commissioner of Research and Planning and Development at the Ugandan Revenue Authority. She has a long history and many years of experience in tax administration in Uganda. She's also the URA Representative and Chairperson on the Research and Planning Subcommittee of the East Africa Revenue Authorities Technical Committee. She's also a member of the ICDD Advisory Group. In the past, Millie has collaborated with ICDD and with us at UNU wider on a number of groundbreaking research projects. So Millie, we are very happy to have you with us today and we look forward to our discussion and maybe to get us started and warm us up and maybe we start with telling the audience a little bit about your experience about the collaboration between the URA and UNU wider. Thank you. Thank you, Amina. All of you, I'm glad to be here. I'm honored, Amina, that we are working together as with UNU wider. Let's say UNU wider always brought a breath of fresh air. And why do I say that? Is that our collaboration started way back in about 2017, December 2017 with UNU wider. But we'd been signing MOUs with a number of research firms. And for some of the research firms, it was about passing on information to them, passing on data. So we would always give data. So when UNU wider comes in together with ICDD, they also have a unique relationship with us. It was a collaboration. It was no longer just giving information out there and the results come and you're probably not able to interpret them. The research is not able to interpret that very well. But now it was working together. UNU wider provided high speed tools, high speed computers, software, Internet my files, a whole new world to us. We were using already cleaned and analyzed and organized data for research. So with the coming in of UNU wider, we now started getting down to the granules of this information because now we had the computers, the fast computers. We had the information. So the collaboration was such that UNU wider information and we were able to help staff work together with the UNU wider staff and be able to open up this world, whole world of collecting. And we are not able to use because of lack of tools, fear of the unknown and so many other things. So that is how the collaboration started. And we got an interesting team, very friendly team to teach us as well as learn. So I'm so grateful to the UNU wider team that have been patient, very patient with us because it took a lot of time to clean that data and get results that are usable. So I mean, that's the bit of history of our experience with the UNU wider, how it all started. Thanks, Mili. So you've touched on a few different things, right? So you've touched on this collaboration in terms of the research, but also on the technical side in terms of our data. Maybe you want to tell us a little bit more about how the research has influenced or how it's been taken up at the URA? Okay, the research has been taken up not only at the URA, most of the research we're doing together with UNU wider is in the angle of policy because as we look at the impact of tax on poverty, impact of tax on equity, incidence of tax in some of the research researchers we've carried out together with UNU wider, most of these informed policy. And like I said, this area has been such a gap. Previously, we would get policy proposals, policies are passed, but you're unable to tell whether it has an impact on the poverty levels, whether it has an impact on equity and impact on the people who are actually paying. So the formulas that UNU wider shared with us, the modern research formulas and the tools have enabled us to be able to do that. So the uptake has been jointly, the uptake has been together with URA management, but Ministry of Finance, the people who handle policy and also the external local researchers because these are people who are consulted so much by our policy arm. So we find that a number of these are looking into the time when we are looking at policy reform. We have these researchers being considered and they have indeed informed policy reform like the change of excises has come through some of the studies we've done on incidence of excise duty, VAT came in later, pay as you own threshold, it didn't get through to change the policy, but there was quite a lot of information there. What actually impacted us was the fact that we didn't have enough extra handles for us to be able to change the pay as you own threshold, but we had research scientific information to show that the current pay as you own taxpayers and inflation they're impacted by all this and we need to increase that threshold. So government is now able to take decisions, informed decisions based on the researches that we are carrying out together with the UNIWDA. Do you say there's any particular study in the using the UGAMOD model that's been quite useful as well? Yes, yes the UGAMOD model has been for us implementers, sometimes you may not say what exactly the formula is, but the UGAMOD model has been very, very useful and it is the UGAMOD model that is enabling us to be able to relate the current tax policies with the poverty levels because we are using the information from our Uganda Bureau of Standards that is able to give you household information and it's also able to help us assess the impact on the equity levels and those are very, very important factors that government considers. In fact, as we are working on the UGAMOD model with the staff from tax policy, so it's easy, it just flows in. We're working together with researchers from Macarena University. By the time we come out to share this, it is already acceptable, it's already shared and with the UGAMOD, most of the studies I've talked about by the way, I mean most of them have come through the UGAMOD because it is hard to tell the implications of our presumptive tax. We have presumptive tax which is for the very low income earners. So it's hard to tell that impact without looking at households. It's hard to tell the impact of excise, without household orders. The incident of excise duty, we were looking at how it interplays with the people who are consuming these excisable products and who are using household information. So it has, I must say that the UGAMOD plus the exposure has removed from us the fear. You know how you can have fear of data, you can have fear of publishing things and you say I think it's not good enough. Not with all that work of information and that formula. And I must mention the support we got from SASPRI because SASPRI is South Africa, fellow African and all that. But again it helped us know that if someone nearby has done it, we can also, because Yuka, I mean all there in Helinski or wherever. So sometimes you imagine that is a very modern world, we cannot get there. So SASPRI played two roles, is that they played a balancing role, you can do it, you can do it. And then when we joined together with Yuka and the rest and Katie, it all worked out very well. So those are some of the specific studies that we've done using the UGAMOD and we believe it is just a start that the future for us using that model. Now, when we get to the ministry, when we are speaking to the minister, when we are speaking to civil society, when we are speaking to the public, we speak with confidence because we have derived these incidences and impacts. It's so interesting really. It's interesting to understand that the relationships are a big part of the work going forward. If you now think back on the past maybe four years of this collaboration, what would you say is either like a memorable moment, one of the biggest highlights you've had maybe personally in the collaboration? I mean you and I have met at least once now in Pretoria and maybe you want to share some insights about those kinds of trips or other interactions. Okay, thank you Amina. Personally, when I took on the role of assistant commissioner, one of my passions and one of my drives has been to develop that stuff to international levels. So one of the biggest highlights that I have achieved through the Unwider is that a tough strength of more than six that are international, that I can position anywhere in Uganda, anywhere in the world and I'll be able to stand and drive. So for me that is a very, a very, very big highlight. Another highlight is the model. It's the model because and you won't believe it. I mean I think just about four years, four years before Unwider comes in, we had the time, I think it was after the four years, the time we brought on board the over the top tax. So when we brought over the top tax, we had a session with the minister. He came to Uganda Revenue Authority, met the top management and said but did you people do any research to see the impact on the population so that we do change management because the outcry was so high and everyone was quiet in the room and then he asked who is the head of research, who is the head of, so I stood up and everyone was so quiet. So he said my eyes are on you, my eyes are on you, we need to do research as we bring on policies. So then comes in so for me it was a blessing in this case because it answered the questions we have and I assured all my colleagues in senior management that watch this press, I am going to come back. So for me another highlight, I mean is that now I can stand and every time we meet parliament, every time we meet minister, I tell them that we have researched policies, we work with ministry and have research policies. The experience we picked from South Africa in terms of the data and the way it's being managed and the way it is spread out because what I know is that if data is not used, then it's useless to collect it, you must use it. So for me the experience in South Africa demonstrated to me when I saw those young people in that research lab or data lab just getting busy with all that data, it was and indeed I must say that one of our immediate future plans you've already started to meet, you must know with Unwaiida is for us to build a research lab, a research lab, a research network that is a replica of what is in South Africa. We are looking at our sitting within the revenue administration or even at the ministry depending on what would happen but we are starting with the revenue administration and maybe with levels of maturity we will be able to get there. But for me that was a light bulb moment, it was a light bulb moment because when we got here we are now moving, we have already secured the computers, we are securing a special research assistant to help us have this data available and there is no research is not just privy to us the implementers but how we work with the whole of the Yuga researchers, the young at the university by availing them masked data to answer research questions, I believe that will project us much much faster. So for me those are some of the and I must mention the light bulb moment of the Yuga mod that day we launched the Yuga mod unfortunately that time Yuka wasn't able to come but we shared but the day we launched that Yuga mod for me I knew there's a change and from that time the demand to use the Yuga mod, the relationship with the researchers at the university, the relationship with the tax policy staff improved tremendously because with a click of a button you get in do this analysis and voila there are the results. So for me there have been a number of light bulb moments I've given you like four and I think those are quite exciting. Thank you. That's excellent and to hear how it's actually built on over time. So you've actually mentioned this one challenge that it's taken time to get to this point where we can make data available and the lab is still being built and the computers are now coming to the URA. Maybe you want to highlight some of the other challenges you've experienced not specific to the collaboration but maybe within the URA in terms of bringing the research on board or convincing other staff members that this is a good idea or that sort of thing. Thank you. We've faced a number of challenges but you know challenges also help you get better or get better ways of managing. One of the challenges we've faced within the organization and on both sides in terms of the collaboration are the organization bureaucracies because some of these ways of working are relatively new. I can say relatively new working very closely with researchers. Researchers have their semantics and implementers have their semantics. Some of us fall halfway but you find that the bureaucracies like you get to a revenue administration for you to get funding in, you need an MOU, you need to open an account not necessarily just with Unwider but with even other research agencies we are working with and then the account is opened in the central bank and then so it almost takes forever getting a research assistant funded by a research firm then you have to look at the insurance of that assistant. So those bureaucracies sometimes surprise you because for you when you have this very exciting idea in your mind with your researchers you never imagine you're going to fail at some of these challenges. One of the other challenges we've met is that these researchers are so interesting the methodologies have been a bit complex so it takes stuff a bit of time to get on board and as it takes them a bit of time to get on board it also kind of impacts the routine quick studies that they have to do. Fortunately is that as we work with Unwider and the team they provide that support for the staff to work outside working hours that extra time but then again you have to look at the fatigue, the fatigue of the staff and the numbers that's why for me the beauty of having a research lab comes into some of these problems that you don't have to sit and practically do this but you have a whole network of researchers out there to support you answer a number of these questions. One of the other challenges we've also faced is like I said the complex methodologies now for that one we need to find a way of building more capacity for our staff the time it takes for people to build capacity as they are doing the research to learn. I remember there's a time I had one of the researchers get upset with some of my staff they were taking forever to extract information from the systems and she wanted I don't know what variables and they couldn't get them and I kept on trying to get in but that's why I've appreciated really the patience the patience because when for you you know that formula or you know the method it's so easy and and I I don't remember who but she kept on saying just click and all the information will come through but it wasn't as easy as that so some of the changes we have faced then like you say the appreciation of research because of the speed of looking for revenue and for this the appreciation of research has been a challenge but I'll tell you I mean that that is um that is history because currently at URAA the research function is being elevated the new commissioner general that that came in is very very passionate about data and research so for us we we are almost like we are in heaven every time we speak of data and research he says if you haven't researched you can't speak so I know we are in a good place that the permanent secretary to the treasury those are our bosses at the ministry that the people who drive policy reform his his his background is economic research so we we have been discussing and he has brought out all these he says I want the incidence of individual I want to see how to strike a balance between policy and fiscal and every time these discussions come through I am just too excited so for sure I mean that that issue of research uptake we had it before but I am sure going forward that is not going to be an issue we shall be looking for for more researchers the future is very bright for us so those are the major challenges I can share but I think we will be able to get around it but if it wasn't for the bureaucracies by now we would be having a research lab but we are almost over them now I mean it's it's understandable and it's um you know it's it's not it's also my experience that these these bureaucracies and these challenges exist in other places it's not a Uganda specific problem and they are also hurdles when we work with the with the revenue authority in South Africa or Tanzania or Zambia and but it's it's good to understand that they are practical steps that one can take and and that patience is also important in this collaboration we don't have too much time left but and I don't see any questions in the chat or the Q&A but in case people would like to um we welcome you to join the moderation panel um and ask your question live if you'd like to um otherwise merely um we really appreciate the time that you've taken to join us today on this fireside chat um and we look forward to our collaboration going forward and building our date while a recent lab together and I actually very much look forward to visiting Kampala soon um as soon as it's possible thank you so much great great thank you Amina you're you're welcome thank you so much for the opportunity you've given me I'd like to take this this this chance to thank you you know why I know that people we are working with our friends hope covid goes very soon so that we're able to meet again physically I'd like to thank the team at South Spree that that has supported I'd like to thank the staff at the URA and and the especially the research staff that have really um taken this positively the staff at ministry of staff at university and all the people that have participated in this and I would like to welcome all of you to join us in the journey that leads our country to economic independence through the support of research policies thank you thank you so much thank you