 All right, thank you very much madam chair members of the board for the record I'm Tom reading an attorney with bacon Wilson here in Amherst here on behalf of 462 main in its application for a Modification of the site plan as the chairwoman mentioned with me this evening to my right is the manager and member of 462 main John Robleski We also have our civil designer bill Osley and our architect Christine Royal So as the chairwoman mentioned We've got some changes. We were here and we received approval August 27th It was for a mixed use building with 16 units and 30 beds 32 parking spaces So in the interim John Had some time on his hands looked at some of the other projects that were being approved the look at looked at the market and thought how can I hit that market better And how can I make the site better? How can I give it more amenities? And so that's really what he's done And so he's increased The units by eight, but I think the notable pieces increase the bedrooms by five And so what he's done is really changed some of those units. He was approved for four one bedroom ten two bedroom and two three bedroom and he is requesting approval for four studios Ten one bedroom nine two bedroom and one three bedroom and so there's a shift To studios and one bedrooms because I think probably what the what the board is seeing I know what I'm seeing in town is that there's a push for more Single bedroom units whether they're in the form of studios or one bedrooms I think you had the project down on Southeast Street show that I think you've seen from archipelago downtown I think just anecdotally talking to a lot of the different landlords in town that that's what they're seeing so so John has seen that and wants to modify this design. I think you'll see tonight that the architecture is very similar The footprint has only increased by 800 square feet Gross floor area has increased by 2700 square feet And then I think he's made some other changes to the site that he'll go over in a minute that have increased utility and Provided additional amenities in a covered bike storage area indoor trash And then there's a there's a shift of the ADA spaces to make them More accessible. I think they make more sense where they are now and then a relocation of the transformer and then The electric vehicle charging stations to stations to be in close proximity to that transformer So with that What I'll do is I'll turn it over to John to talk through The changes and what we've got is an overlay And I can always toggle I've got the approved plans From before and I've got the proposed plan so I can always toggle back and forth if you need it But without further ado John Robleski Thank you. Good to see you all again. Happy new year So this is an overlay of the old and anew So the lighter colors of the building are the approved plan from August On the darker shaded kind of rust color are the additions to the footprint of the building So this area here is two feet by 56 feet. This is about six feet by 56 feet This area here is about ten and a half by 14 and then this area is seven by 56 I believe The office area stayed the same that's 22 by 25 so the 550 square foot office area remains the same The light gray Parking area is the new layout Yeah, if you bring it back down So the upper part of the parking area hasn't changed at all Now what we did the existing barn that's there that is this light colored square 20 by 20 That is in close proximity to that tree there and there's already pavement that dotted line is a current pavement So we thought it best to move the Island further south to allow that trees roots to have more space Rather than underneath the black top like it is now So in doing that we Reduced this to three parking spaces where the old one there was four parking spaces there There was one two the two handicapped or maybe just three But anyways that allowed us to get a little more room in this area for the covered bike Storage Which would be like a shed roof coming off of the the back of the building there and to redo that back section of the existing structure and Just to add 32 square feet right in this area here to allow a little more room for trash cans right in that area inside and allow Interior bike storage for the winter on the back half of that So this back section here would be interior bike trash recycling here but if you remember the previous plan which is this kind of Dark line for the parking how tight this was here That always kind of bothered me and then rather have more green space there for the tenants to enjoy and make it more like a Residential property rather than have black top, you know all the way through here So in doing that we were able to do away with five parking spaces there. We gained one up here one up here by redoing the Handicap the handicapped got moved to the center of this back side So there's we gained two spaces back there and we added three up front here and go back down So these three new spaces up front here three compact spaces and in dealing with the ever source and the location of the transformer and the EV charging stations they want the charging stations in close proximity to the Transformer so just kind of helped out in both directions with that This handicapped van space here is Better in that location that gives direct access to the office area, which is apt to have the most handicapped Going in there And these spaces pretty much stayed the same you can see the light gray. We actually pushed it back I think about two and a half three feet here stormwater area is still in the same area there's a like a Preceptor catch basin type thing right here So we tried to get the transformer on that side versus where it is over here but This transformer where it is there the whole front of the house kind of slopes up from the street if you remember and This section in front of the porch Where this tall shrubs are actually is about two feet higher than the edge of the pavement here So what we're doing is we're dropping this gray down to about 92 and a half here 93 on a corner And a transformer will be at 93 which kind of blends with this side a lot line here. It's 93 94 there So we're just going to do a little like retaining landscape wall to hold the existing shrubs there Then the transformer will be dropped down like a foot and a half Transformers about six feet six foot six tall and five feet wide Those shrubs that are in front of the house and we have some pictures of them Are seven feet tall and one's like an evergreen year around the other couple in the center our Burning bush, I think So that'll be actually two feet lower the top of the transformer will be two feet lower than those shrubs And we're going to add some more screening on this side my email the direct neighbor here and show them What we wanted to do and ask if they had any input. I have not heard from them I said, you know, would you rather have a fence there or Just shrubs and they think shrubs would be better To blend in with the existing shrubs that are there and when you're looking up from Main Street that transformer Just kind of be blended into the shrubs So that's I think the big changes in the nutshell to the site plan All the other setback requirements and everything are the same the building overall the old footprint This section here was 39 and a half feet wide We dropped at the 39 feet for the entire section of building there now And we shorten the entire building by a foot the old one is the 168 and the new one is 167 from north to south But the setbacks here are the same the north setback 20 feet to the property line is the same this whole parking area is the same again to say a Mature tree This tree is on the other property, but this one here again as I explained about the the island there And there's actually three shrubs right here that I didn't know what kind they were but I had a landscaper look at I'm near and the hokey Cypress They're a lot of them, but they're nice He said the only thing you should do is transplant those over to the transformer So that's a possibility, but I got to look and see on how big they get Because they say it's no hokey ears and hokey trees But they're only about six and a half feet seven feet tall now So that's a possibility, but I'm gonna try to work with the neighbor there and just make sure they have screening and I think the downstairs of that property there I'm not even sure if there's any residential people that live in that house on the corner of Gray Street It's the Center for Spanish Studies So I think that's about it as far as the changes good So I mean if there are any questions about those changes we're happy to answer them there There was a stormwater report done. There are no changes. We still comply with Massachusetts stormwater standards I think that's with Jason skills right now. We don't anticipate. I mean he was on site with Bill and There weren't any issues. We just haven't received a final sign off from from Jason So from what we understand there's a very good likelihood that this is going to be continued And so we would expect that prior to that next hearing date. We'll have something definitive from Jason saying, you know, no problem so That's the site we can turn it to architecture if you'd like Well, do you have any question on grading because the site engineers here the grading state about the same with the exception of the Three parking spaces in our front there I believe and a little bit around the trash area just to kind of mesh that slab for the The outside bike carburet area other than that. It's pretty much the same that right Bill So are you gonna have the architect come up and Show the renderings and such does the plan that might be good to have that in Sure There it's the same number we just reconfigured where those five are in front of that building where it was kind of tight So we put two in that back lot and the three up front, but it's the same number It's all those numbers are all the same yeah, it's effectively now there's Could he put more parking spaces here? Sure, but I I think on balance given You know the data that he's seen from Spruce Ridge what we've seen you know from 70 University Drive for example You know the parking just isn't needed for this type of use than the breakdown. Yeah Thank you Okay Which which goes comes before the architecture I think Is it still your intention to Not allow undergraduates given the new configuration of apartments Well, I think Undergrads aren't a bad thing if you screen them properly For instance, I have a house in 734 Main Street. That's always been undergrads And I've never had a problem the carpet there. I ended up replacing in about 20 years You know the interior doors. I lost two Hollow core interior doors, you know from boyfriend girlfriend disagreements but that's it, you know since 1982 and It's just it's all how you run the property and how you communicate with the tenants and their parents But you made a point last time we were here that there would be no undergraduates Right That's now changed If they're properly screened I I would accept them I mean, I think so part of it is that after the last conversation here I probably my fault said to John. Why would you limit yourself? Nobody else and I've had another couple of management companies say that and I think it was you to brought up the Airbnb thing Somebody asked about Airbnb and how they can control that and I looked into the Airbnb rules and regulations And they have a clause in there about Third-party, you know how they cannot accept third-party releases so in my leases I have the sublet agreement and I check with attorney fire burn He says no he says you're covered because they cannot sublet without my approval And they cannot list it on Airbnb or any of those things, you know without written approval Just the minor thing It looks like you're working the island to protect the tree There and I'm just wondering we've seen along historic roads there that the trees apparently are Sensitive to to the pavement if it's near there, and I'm just wondering If it's sufficient or if yet, you know Arbor Arbor's look at it or that sort of thing well I guess I had an arborist look at it, and that's why we changed the island because if you see there On the upper part the old pavement the light gray In that dotted line that's pavement there already. Okay, so the roots are already underneath pavement there So we wanted to open it up and let the trees, you know root system, which is underneath that barn or the garage right now Which that's opened up. It's more More root system for that tree that's a healthy your saturation. Yep Great. Thank you. If we could see the renderings Okay, so if you had to put more parking This is in in that part that's in that part that's green how many I can't quite see how many space that is Yeah, I think my attorney misspoke there I don't think I really can put any there because we brought the building out farther and yet be eight feet away from the building The only way we can add is to do away with that tree and island And gain maybe two spaces there Or go farther to the north and add two spaces there, which is going to compromise that Nice tree that the neighbors really want to have stay there But I think you know the parking I've done some recent research and there's a lot of places across the country that have done away with parking limits for a new construction they want the The economic factor, I guess to be more beneficial and they're finding out There was one study done in Cambridge in Boston that 36% of the parking spaces there are unused and That actually equates to the situation we explained about my property next door I've got 34 parking spaces there for 12 units That's a hundred and forty percent over what's required you know to per unit and Right now and there's like 11 12 spaces that go unused. I have 23 cars there last three years in a row so all that data that's been done really since the 2015 ish to July of 19 is when a Boston report came out backs it right up Just the millennials and they're not buying cars and not buying houses They want to get on that phone and pay their rent and find it Uber and everything. It's just the way it is now Plus the location, you know be in downtown I think that goes part and parcel to the rezoning of that area and kind of encouraging more Walkability so to speak in less pavement And as far as overflow park and I can you know work something out and maybe use those spaces next door But I really don't see that There's gonna be an overflow park and especially with the mixed use Because right now there's more than one space per residential bedroom or slightly less than one space. I'm sorry 35 bedrooms 32 spaces, but it's shared parking you go over next door during a daytime There might be eight or ten cars parked there And all the other spaces are open, you know, so same thing here for business during a day and there were some in the residents are leaving then It works out plus breaking it up like this having the Seven or eight spaces in a front there kind of is where the business is and then residential in the back And then share it at night. I just think it's a better balance Okay, maybe looking at the renderings will help everybody get a better view of the changes Again welcome if you can just introduce yourself Good evening. My name is Christine Royal. I'm an architect working with Maple Street architects based out of Northampton I can say that we really appreciated the comments and the feedback that you gave us last time about the massing of the building in general which we took strongly into consideration and into use as we were relaying out the new interior Interior plans and so we still have three steps in the building from the southern side with the office Up to the smaller wing of the residential units and then the larger massing of the remainder residential units We still broke up the facade. We're still running with the same kit of parts as far as The siding and the detailing and the overhangs and the way the windows are joined So we really worked hard to keep this as similar to the approved Version as possible. Could we see the picture before? So that's before yeah That's After right So you can see the majority of the The majority of the growth in the massing has been to the north side, which is not highly visible from the street Really the stepping that you can see and I think you have the other rendering. Yes, the stepping that you can see You know from the street is largely the same It is Yes, it's like one of those I exams so I'll toggle what's better one One or two Two Or one yeah, so that it is largely the same, you know, we're really breaking down the mess with the the coppered Running horizontally the shingling at the eaves the wood trim detail You know giving that horizontality to the mass the which really speaks to the original building on the site as well What this new rendering does help to illustrate is the stepping in the front that John mentioned to accommodate the three parking spaces out front and the location of the transformer behind the existing signage and in front of the Existing shrubbery. Yes, the meters are on the backside now as well And the transformer is sort of behind the sign in that Are there any questions the utility meters are Correct May I ask another question what and perhaps could you jog my my man jog my memory perhaps Wasn't there an issue with the historical commission and the barn that's behind the current build the currently existing building Was didn't the question come up yet, so sure we did meet with the historical commission last month And we reviewed the barn with them. They have given us approval to remove the barn Conditioned on John's continuing pursuit of a buyer or relocation for the barn in the meantime Were there any new concerns with the taking down the back and rebuilding the No, they were very positive about that. Okay, could we see the side view again the long view? So I would defer to my colleagues in the panel But I wondered if the peaked roofs were a little more bigger or a little more centered because it just it looks kind of disjointed to me and kind of odd especially that little one Maria we'll just I'm just wondering if it could be more symmetrical or the peaked roof on the right could be bigger to make it look more like a separate building Honestly, this is a little misleading because you don't really see it from that angle much It's really from the street. So the other view is really the public view In order to get that view you have to be in the backyard of your neighbor, I think You're floating a really broad view. So I'm not too concerned about that view being, you know Sort of not symmetrical and sort of more variegated I appreciate still the scale stepping back and it looks like there's enough gable roofs that sort of matches the historic quality of the area And I appreciate that now no parking was further removed and I know that's been an issue but Architecturally, I think it still fits the scale and feel of the neighborhood Yeah, I agree. It is a little bit more. It's a little larger a little more blockish I notice on from this view the end the green, you know, if you toggle back, you know, it is bigger and rises more sharply, but But there's enough other details Yeah, that's the new one, right? And then if you go back to the other one So there were some of the extra detailing on the overhang Shading areas with the the structure how it's like a triangle Which is interesting with the eye, I think and distracts you from the building above I was just wondering why you removed that and went with the cleaner lines It is more of a porch detail that we were looking at in this iteration so that the the rhythm of the porch posts in the original are picked up along that front end of the new proposed Yeah, we felt that that kickback bracket to the building didn't really speak to any of the original detailing in the in the existing building So I see what you're you know trying to achieve I just noticed with that other that kickback bracket It does sort of draw your eye to that gives you a longer way. Yeah The rise of the building it was just My first thought looking at them Could you go back to the this this is Tom's job good for me And there seems to be a little less detail in the windows on the front end here in the blue The office right if you go back to the Tom, you're getting this I it just looks like there's a little more detail there again. Sure. I think that that is Not intentional that we lost some of that shading and the in detailing in the windows Our intent isn't to change the window package. Okay. Yeah Sorry if I miss this see how there's three parking spaces in the front in this rendering Yes, are those new or those are new That that is what John was talking about earlier and the request for the electric vehicle charging stations to be close to the transformer By the utility. Yeah, because you're rendering show one with it when without Yes, they weren't there previously which is why they're not on the other rendering I appreciate the electric vehicles and compactness. It's a little bit of a shame. That's so front and center That's the only thing I mean I see in plan, but now that I see perspective like, oh, you know without the cars there It looks very nice, but you know in reality, you're gonna see parked cars pretty close to the sidewalk, but That's just I'm not sure we can do anything about that What about if there was some like a bed with some bushes in the front on that part Would that distract and soften a little bit? Because you know, we're seeing it as asphalt, but if you actually envision three cars there now suddenly you've sort of got like a parking lot on the front which At least they're electric maybe but yeah, could that do you see anything that could happen to soften up that front lawn and maybe do a bed Right, yeah, no No, the signs right on the corner Parking So you could look into that even if it was a low bed low plants just something that sort of softens like there's the cars Anyone else have any comments on the front Chris I Don't have any comments on the front But I have comments on the rear of the existing building when you get around to that Okay, so and Chris you have a question in the rear later, okay We had this kind of very attractive Kind of I don't know if it's a Victorian style But has a little fancy stuff on it in the building that you're proposing not so fancy And I just wondered if there could be something that you could put on the post that would match more You know like a little I don't know the technical term, but I'm sure I own some myself We could definitely look at the the detailing in the trim on the post I would be hesitant to replicate the existing Because it it is not an original and we don't you know want to give sort of a false sense of development But we certainly could pick up that bracket Detail idea and yeah as part of the language Yeah, sort of tying back into like the previous view where it had the brackets Not saying use the bracket, but just some no I understand that adds we can look at some architectural detailing great Michael dear. Yeah. Yeah, I I was very enthusiastic about the original plan in terms of the massing and the relationship of the Mass of the of the new building to the old building. I find this more a little more problematic I don't like that deal breaker, but I wonder if there's some way to soften that Wall that now faces the street which has no no fenestration at all in it The original plan as I remember can you go back to your joint work one time? Well, it doesn't have a but it's it's It's set back further and you see the windows in the in the rear building facing the street and there's no similar That looks like it the the the old plan looks like it could be almost two separate buildings That were just close to each other from the street view This looks like one solid building and it seems to me that the notion of it being Two separate buildings into imaginatively fits the notion of infill and the idea of what I think we need to be going for in that general area of town which is Letting the old buildings be the dominant ones visually and having the new buildings be supportive or secondary visually the original buildings Supporting cast mmm supporting cast supporting cast. Yes. Here. I think the new the new building is is the star Where the old building in the in the original plan the old building what took the focus? And I wish we could figure out a way. I wish you as the architect could figure out a way to De-emphasize the mass of the new proposed building At to the to the benefit of the existing building I certainly appreciate the comments on that. I think partially through the color choice and the fact that the existing building is much further forward that it really reads more clearly from the street So with the massing We could look at maybe some window locations That might help break up that that front facade a little more Functionally what's behind that where the arrow is now? Is that our department? It is an apartment. There's no reason there window couldn't be there Is there? Now that I can think of off the top of my head Could you click back to the old one again? Yeah, so Building on Michael's point when you look back at the blue building in the back They were larger windows also that drew your eye more where I think in the new rendering They're probably bathroom windows or something. Mm-hmm. Yeah, so, you know, they almost look undersized a little bit for the wall but I understand this why but Maybe that's all the more reason why there does need to be something on that green wall or an accent up in the triangle I don't know, you know, again, we don't want to make it too much of the superstar and more of the support but Yeah, it doesn't it isn't as pleasing to from the street as it was before Well, it is bigger, so yeah Could we look at the side view again? So the green space is nice to have that that does help break it up It's hard to see in a rendering because you undersize the Obviously green in real life is nicer. The trees are nicer and they will grow. I I noticed you don't have a Tree in that area like on the right part, you know, I don't know if a tree could fit there I mean, we didn't want to mask the building in the rendering. We wanted you to be able to see it So I think in the landscape plan, you know, we can we can definitely talk about placement of You know different different plantings But as far as the renderings go we really tried to keep those down so that you can see it Yeah, so what I was going to say then if we went back to Street view I don't know if there's mr. Reedy the lawyer than this Tom the clicker here If the clicker I was just wondering again when you're looking at it from the street if there was a tree You know in that area is that I don't know it would it would make some scale and Legibility impact for sure So from for me what I like is the the rhythm of the façade as you look down this sort of Roadway alleyway streetway I think I find that to be that rhythm to be really pleasing I do understand the concerns about the the massing as the building has gotten larger But a tree is a good idea to help sort of mark that differentiation. Are any other questions? I know Chris has one about the in the back. Is there a certain view that the Tom can put up for you Maybe they were just getting to describe that and maybe we should let them go ahead and describe that and then I'll make my comment Okay Okay, sure so as I mentioned earlier we did review this with the Historic Committee and You can see in the front the left two drawings that the intent is to rebuild the smaller Shed-like addition that was probably put on in the 50s. It's hard to really date that piece with a very similar function a trash and Bike shed with some exterior covered bike storage as well and So the other two views are you know moving around the north side of that building looking at the bike shed from Basically the top ones from the fence line and this is the plan of it So the doors now come they face the parking lot rather than the north side of the property correct That makes sense And it also has a covered location for the mailboxes now you can see that adjacent to the door And is there only going to be bike storage in there or bike and trash in recycling? And I assume Chris, this is all loud even though it's sort of in a grandfathered area. It's very close to the property line So that was the issue that I wanted to make a comment on Originally when you approve this They were proposing to leave this old structure as it was at the back of the existing building So now they're proposing to take that old structure down and build something new which is really more functional and It's slightly bigger, but that doesn't really matter But the issue is that the building commissioner has determined that as a result of Putting this addition on the existing building the existing building is non conforming It's closer than it should be to the property line It's four foot six from the property line and the setback on that western side is ten feet So that makes the existing building non conforming so if you alter a non conforming building alter expand or Forget what the other word is but that requires a special permit So we just discovered this in the last couple of days that Putting this new structure on here is going to require a special permit in accordance with the building commissioner and in section 9.22 of the zoning bylaw so I Think you know, I've explained it to mr. Reedy and mr. Roblesky But the building commissioner Recommends that the approval of the site plan review wait for the special permit public hearing so that you can approve both at the same time So I'm getting a little ahead of myself, but my suggestion would be If the applicant and mr. Reedy wanted to go ahead with this special permit application They could file it before Friday Actually, if they could file it tomorrow, that would be really good and then we'll probably be able to get it on the February 5th Planning board agenda I'm pretty sure So that would mean and it's just a An application we'd need in a butters list which I think we can get and a fee so it's not a big deal You don't have to submit drawings or anything like that But I think that would be the route that we would suggest going and try for the February 5th public hearing date But so we need to continue to public here. We will I just want to make sure there's nothing else that we need to Get from anybody else. Yep. Oh and then Janet next but Chris So two things that I would recommend if Mr.. Reedy could get Jason skills the town engineer to submit an email saying he has no comments or he has Some comments, whatever he wants to say we would need that and the other thing is There's been talked recently about locating a propane tank on the site So either you could treat that as a condition, you know come back show the planning board and Get approval of a location for the propane tank Or they could have it for you on the 5th of February and then you could approve that as well And I think those are the only issues that I have So that yeah, no problem John met with America's today. So it's a non-issue Janet so I have a couple of questions. One of them is can you tell me the estimated? Rentals for the studio one bedroom the rents just a sense of that Yeah, just I mean I'm not gonna put it in stone, but I'm just I can only I guess comment on what like University Drive is rented for They're similar in size of the one bedrooms, and I believe they're at 1400 Yeah, yeah, and the studio like just if you can run through the studio I think maybe like a thousand. Yeah, I think studios there are 1150 and one bedroom I think is yeah these studios I think are a little bit smaller like 325 square feet And they built in you know storage area in there, so okay, and then the two bedrooms and the three bedrooms Well, there's only one three bedroom And that's only because where the stairway is to get up to the third floor or the second floor rather we have that Area that's above the office that's kind of incorporated into that second floor same as the last plan three bedrooms, I would think probably around two two thousand and What we're trying to do you know with the gas company and I met this morning is the propane is gonna be a more reasonable than Electric as far as heat and right now the plan is to pursue supply in a hot water similar to what they have a University Drive and Including that in a rent and then have them have the bigger units two bedroom and three bedroom would have a gas furnace In the central air conditioning two bedrooms and to answer that I think it probably around the 1850 Okay, are there David I? Again, my memory might not be is easily inaccurate, but it seems that the current proposal has the ADA bedroom on the far on the north end and I thought that the previous iteration it was Towards the front of the building towards the commercial space my question has to do with It seems as if the three Handicap parking spaces, I think there were three or not in close proximity to the ADA Bedroom Well, they are they are yeah the first plan we had no ADA unit We was once you go over 20 units, then you need an ADA unit So this here the ADA unit is on the north end of the building and the sidewalk with the two Parking spaces right there has a slope and it goes right up to that door So it's actually in closer proximity to it I think part of it is that originally and still all of the first floor units are group one accessible and As John mentioned once once we went over the 20 unit count We have a group to accessible which is a more fully accessible unit and that is located close to the parking Janet so I would like at the next hearing To get more information about Parking because it seems to me like I went and actually looked at How the unit the apartment you have around the corner on a Sunday morning and there were out of the 30 How many spaces did you say there were? 34 34 spaces 28 were full and so that was just you know I decided Sunday morning was good. And so our bylaw requires two unit two parking spaces per unit and then There's ways you can waive that and it's not clear to me what waiver section that you're going for but I think that I Need more or we need more information about actual use and Alternatives is like a parking management plan that would reduce expected use I've been pulling up data about bus use and you know and I've asked for information about the number of cars my you know bus bus use is down over by five percent over the last five years There's all this data about people who commute to work 50% of Amherst residents drive by themselves to work fortunately some other people are carpooling So there's a lot of information, you know traffic is up It's not down if if people were driving less and using mass transit more you'd expect those numbers to be the other way so and Also, maybe if you're gonna use University Drive, which is obviously a lot of students that could either walk or take a bus to UMass That's sort of different than the situation. So I feel like I I need to apply the waiver That's in the bylaw. I need information that supports it And so is it you know and actually I was thinking the VFW lot across the street Which you know I drive by constantly. I'm sorry to say I drive so much But is often empty and maybe that would be extra space for people But I think for me it's very important not just to fulfill the law the bylaw But make sure that the people in this building have enough places to park the car and the only reason the building is bigger is Because you've taken away spaces to get more units and obviously to make more money, which is your job You know but our job is to make sure it kind of works for the tenants as well as and there's no street parking There's no option of that either so so I just I just feel like I need more information and data that would support that and We're happy to provide it. I just one clarification. There were no parking spaces lost. There were 32 before and they're still 32 now, so just But you just added a lot more Apartment units, so am I more units by beds? Yes. Yeah, but we didn't lose I thought I heard you say that we lost parking spaces and I just want to Yeah, but yeah, I mean you just need more and there and the reason you're building is bigger because You're not providing that parking and so you know and my other question is is there more space for more parking on there somehow? Yeah, so address, you know the 28 cars next door usually on weekends You know there's a boy friend or something that I'll visit just on a weekend type thing But you can drive by there most anytime during a day or you know Workday morning mornings early in the morning or and you'll see there's there's open spaces So look at other places, so that's use. I mean you have people coming over. That's use and so so You know having somewhat of a parking management Right up is probably good due diligence to front load that I know up till now you haven't like assigned spots or but you know Is there a way you could have it in your lease that you tell them like you're only allowed one car like you know Make it very specific and if they were to ask and say oh we have two cars Maybe you have a couple of solutions that they you know, there are people who rent their spaces or lots That's kind of the way I was looking at it figuring one car per unit You know for studio one bedrooms and even a two bedroom maybe two for the three bedroom So there you're looking at 24 spaces for residents So that was written down something together that would be helpful We'll provide additional information justifying the request for the waiver and then we'll also Part of that probably will be some parking management plan like It would be a little more clear I mean I personally would hate to see more any of the green space go to more asphalt like you know It's finding that balance Jack Did we Or did you discuss having a walkway between? Is it spruce spruce rich rich rich rich and this I it seems like we talked Well, there's kind of a cow path walkway there. You know, yeah But I think I actually thought about putting a sidewalk or something there And I was discouraged by a couple of people insurance agent number one as far as liability You know as far as people falling and stuff like that I mean now they find their way over to the bus stop I think I mentioned the last hearing that when I was working at the property there one day one of my tenants from next door Went to get to the bus right in front and then he's walking back. That's what happened. So the bus was full So mean that bus route 30 starts at Belcher town old Belcher town road by the old landfill Stops a rolling green, you know colonial village a whole bunch of other apartments and it gets filled up So I think part of the solution is to have PBTA Either add a bus or put the stretch buses in there or something because he had to go back And he hopped on a skateboard if you remember and skateboard it up the street now university drive Complex is 1.3 miles from Whitmore. This is 1.2 miles And it's more of a direct, you know route right up Triangle Street So just a point of information on that you know, and a lot of a lot of people do walk It's a nice day a little exercise nine minutes to walk from there to the bus the bike rack up here in the center of town 20-minute walk to say way more Chris I just wanted to note if there were Thoughts about using the VFW across the street It gets a little complicated because then you need to get a permit for the VFW property to use their property for Overflow parking, so just wanted to point that out Thank you Michael and there would be some danger in crossing Main Street at that rush hour I just want to I just like to point out that This is not really Directed at your proposal, but For the board we've spent a great deal of time in the last year talking about parking at various developments And it already it'll relate seems to me to relate to the fact that the zoning by-law calls for two spaces per unit Which every developer that has come to us has claimed to be Inappropriate to owners too many parking spaces For the current market and that may well be true, and I don't dispute that necessarily but I do think it means that we as the planning board and Perhaps as the zoning subcommittee of the planning board really need to investigate That number whether two parking spaces per unit is an appropriate zoning by-law at this point and in order to get to Decision about that it seems to me. We ought to have some kind of Study not simply one that relies on what's going on in Boston or other places because as I've said before Amherst is not Boston is Amherst is not an urban area It is its own very particular kind of world and we need a study to Help us determine what exactly the needs of parking for new apartment developments is and I think we need to charge the zoning subcommittee with Investigating that and developing a way to get a good study which gives us information about Amherst not about some other place But about this place and then craft a by-law that relates to that I just want to assure you that it is on the list it is on our shortlist top top ten of Things that need to be looked at and changed with a by-law. We have some other stuff. We got to do first But it's on the list Regarding a study We do want it tailored to Amherst, but usually Doing those studies you go and look at best practices and you do go look at other towns that are similar And what the recent trends are? and I think As that by-law gets rewritten that's what will happen. We'll be looking at best practices and You know consultants are writing articles about this all the time and no, we're not Boston But there are comparable towns that we can use so we will follow up. I hope you know maybe Less than six months. We've got a lot on our plate, but it is on the top of the list I can assure you that and it is a personal interest of mine parking. Everybody knows me and parking So I wonder if I can make a comment. So just to depress the world further Parking the use of buses and metropolitan areas except for Seattle is down Car the sale car sales are up. Boston is mired in traffic. People are driving more not less But you know, we've been doing a lot of master plan stuff And I've been reading a lot of plans and the transportation plan says Directs us to study the actual parking supply and its use Versus the occupied floor space. So the transportation plan from five years ago is telling us to look at this And then it says to amend the zoning by-laws to reflect actual utilization not und Untailor guidance, which I don't know what that means, but I think we have to we have to apply the by-law that we have here and if we keep on Deciding that it doesn't really apply. We shouldn't do it. We're actually Taking over the town council's role of amending the by-law. And so we have to follow the by-law that's written here we I would like some actual use of comparable properties and You know during a day a lot of parking lots are empty If it's a low-income area if it's a low-income project, there's a lot Lot less parking because people can't afford cars The people living in here will be able to afford cars and they may not be going to UMass they might be going to work And then they're most likely to drive Chris I Just wanted to mention that The planning board has a lot on its plate and one of the things that I hope the planning board is going to be looking at over the next year is Redoing large sections if not all of the zoning by-law and if we do tackle that project We're hoping that we can get some consultants to help us on certain pieces of the by-law and the parking Section is one of the pieces that we feel that we really need some consultants help on to give us Guidance about what do other communities do and what is the best practice and standard throughout the country? So We we are Intending to study that and it may take a while, but we're hoping to get there Great, so we have a list of to-dos Chris is that pretty much comprehensive then we you'd think that we would have everything on the fifth So we can make a decision public comment. You're gonna hear tonight. Yep So Chris are you don't that okay? We don't need like fire or anything like that to look at the parking lot or You might want to just flip through your Development application report Where's mine? Yes, Jenna. I have a quick question from the development application report in page 4 It says there are four new 12 foot tall post lamps proposed to light the parking lot that turn off at 1 a.m And this might be the same as the previous proposal But I just I thought that 1 a.m. Was really late to have a light burn like four lights burning and I wondered why that time was picked and An earlier time might be I just I just wondered When I think of people are out and about at night. They're usually home by 1 a.m. And after 1 a.m. We have the ballard or ballard lights, you know along the sidewalks and the entry lights But I think there's still plenty of room so I'm I guess if you're asking if they can go off earlier I don't see why not Though it is there is a point where restaurants and bars, you know, are open to one And there's a liability issue I think the thought that they go off is good because a lot of parking lots They just leave them on till the sun rises but Yeah, what do you have in your other apartment building? Yeah, those are actually on all night. Yeah Chris So I noticed that I went back and looked at the site management plan for the previous application and it is Different from what we would expect for this application the number of units is 16 And now we're looking at 24 and there may be some other things having to do with exterior lighting So I would recommend that the applicants and his lawyer go back and look at the management plan that they submitted last time and Update it so it's in conformance with this plan so that when the Planning board says this property is going to be managed according to the management plan that we have the right management plan Is that clear? Yeah, we've got an updated one great. Yes Okay, and Michael Yes, can continuing on the question of lighting on page four of the sign plan It suggests that the lights ground-based thick not ground-mounted Shine up under the surface of the sign That strikes me as not being dark sky compliant Is that correct? Yeah, I think it's the same grandfathered lights is what I remember before it's the same lights focused on that is a point that If you change the electrical system Change the lights out. You might want to go with down goose goose neck something like that Yeah, well we did that would have to change the sign design because right now It's like a you know the sign is mounted between two posts So we'd have to have some kind of a bar I think you probably could mount them on posts which come up from the existing posts as opposed to on the top of the sign itself Yeah Well the way these are now with the planting bed around there with the stone planting bed The lights are down below the top of the stone. So just the light itself that's shining up You don't see the actual fixture Which is I think he's concerned about light lead up into the night but the light goes up to focus on The sign itself the new lights that we insist that they're down face downward and not up but From what I remember before you weren't changing the light. You were gonna use the same lights But if you were to I mean so you're being asked is it an option to change that system to downward lighting You can certainly look at that. We'll look at it come up with something. Okay, great Sign lighting great All right, so I think we have our list any last questions. I was gonna open it up to public comment Okay, I don't see any is there anyone here who has any questions on this project or is here for it? I See one so if one of you gentlemen could Let miss Pam sit and ask her questions Welcome, we know who you are, but if you could tell Dorothy Pam 229 Amity Street just one quick question. Is it possible not to have the Parking in front of the building The spot three right near the sign So because it I think if they work really hard to make a nice building and then you're all working on that With them tonight, it would be nice not to have the cars in front They address this a little bit earlier, but they can talk about it again It has to do with the electric charging station being near the transformer and those three spots Of course, they're gonna be compact spots any compact car could park there But the hopes is that they will be electric And is that correct that it was suggested instead of running it all the way to the back lot? Okay So thanks Any other public comments? I See none. So at that point we could continue this to February 5th. We could say a time Chris I don't know what we have on for that day can be so far. You don't have anything you could continue this to Okay, do I hear a motion to So moved close the public hearing and move it to February 5th. Just continue or continue. Sorry continue the hearing Thank you. I'm thinking close move. Yeah, we'll take in you it continue it until February 5th at 705 Is there a second? Any discussion Chris? That's all good Okay, all in favor and unanimous. Great. Thanks a lot and we'll see you on the fifth great Okay, so Anyone else want to break or should we can continue? Okay? Just want to check you're all good. All right, so we'll move to item 4 It's a public meeting subdivision Amherst Hill subdivision sub 1989-13 Continue discussion on requests by residents of Amherst Hill subdivision that the planning board rescind the release of lots that were That were released by the planning board on May 1st 2019 from the approval with Covenant contract dated July 2nd 2003 recorded in the Hampshire County Registry of Deeds book 7 5 5 5 page 61 So I'll wait for everyone to get settled a lot of people taking their seats Chris do you want to do an update first and then invite people up? Happy to do an update So since the last meeting which was December 18th We've done some investigation and I think we've made some progress First of all the planning board asked me to reach out to Michael pill who represents to Fino associates to ask him to put in writing in a letter with on letterhead from his office the Offer or information that he sent to the planning board last time in the form of an email and that was that Planning board asked that mr. Pill Outline to Fino's plan for finishing the road and giving the board a date by which the work on the roadway will be completed the planning board requested that this date be sometime in the summer of 2020 and Something like July 1st and not by the end of the construction season and Also the board asked me to reach out to find out if my mr. Pill would on behalf of his clients would be interested in signing a new either a new three-party agreement or Submitting a bond for the difference between the amount that was in the three-party agreement and the amount that it was actually going at cost to complete the road so Subsequent to that mr. Pill wrote back, and I think everybody has a copy of that letter the planning board has copies mr. Reedy has copies and Probably anybody who wanted a copy could get one from the back table And essentially he did just he did reiterate on his letterhead what he had put in his email that the the Jafino associates has every intention of Finishing the road that they would finish it by the end of the construction season of 2020 and Then he made a suggestion at the end of his letter which Caught the attention of our attorney Joel Bard so The suggestion at the end of mr. Pill's letter which I Really paid attention to in the last few days is that Not to have a new three-party agreement but to Issue a new covenant and the new covenant would cover The nine lots that were released last spring But haven't yet been sold the nine lots that are currently under Request by the planning board to the building commissioner not to issue building permits So I discussed that with our town council today and Our town attorney today, and he thought that was a very good idea to reimpose the covenant For those nine lots it would be it would have the same effect as Rescending the release, but it would be a cleaner way to do it, and he is Ready to draft up a new covenant and that would be brought back to the planning board for signature and at that time if that New covenant were recorded at the registry of deeds. We would Request that the original letter that I had sent Requesting that the building commissioner not release building permits that that be rescinded so Joel Bard thinks that is the best way to go in this situation. I did talk to him about possibility of our department imposing a fines on On the developer if he didn't do what he said he was going to do Joel Bard Dissuaded me from that action He thought it would not necessarily be appropriate in this case He said that type of action is best used for sort of repetitive cases like people who Don't Follow the build don't follow a building code don't follow zoning code something that is easy to explain to the court and Easy to get them to agree. Yes, you can impose a hundred dollar fine thirty days in a row, and yes You can try to get your three thousand dollars from The person who's not doing the right thing in this case It is a very complicated situation, and it would be hard to explain it to the court I could do it, but Joel Bard didn't feel it would be really Worth the effort and he didn't feel that the court would understand What we were trying to get so he recommends that we follow the The procedure of reimposing the covenant for those nine lots, and I believe I could probably bring Back that document to you for next time for you to sign So that's the recommendation that we have for you Could you explain So you can just issue a new covenant The developer is offering to do this the developer is essentially agreeing to do this You can agree to do it as well, and then it would be the same as if those lots had not been released But it wouldn't be the same as the rescission of the release So you said it could be drafted it would come back to us for January 29th or the 5th One of those dates it depends on how long it takes Joel to draft it then he'll send it to Michael pill For his review, and then it'll come back So it'll probably take a little back and forth to get it Right, but it seems like the right path to follow That seems pretty reasonable to me. How does Do we want to take that path for now and and get a draft and have it come to us next time? And we can all do a little research on this concept and Janet So we draft the cubby we You know if we approve the covenant do we file at the registry of D's or does the developer have to do that? Either one I asked Joel that question, and he said either one can file it at the registry. Well, that sounds reasonable David So prior to May 1 2019 there was a three-way party agreement relating to this property subdivision which Provided financial some sort of financial Security for the completion of the roads such that they could then be handed over to the town and in addition there was a restriction on the release of these lots Is that is that am I correcting that so there were two there were two pieces of security? Encumbering the developer Correct Whereas The proposal would be to Remove one of those pieces of security that is the three-way party agreement and restore the restriction on the release of the lots until Until performance has been made is that a fair summer there's still a performance bond of 288,000 that doesn't go away. I think Mr. Pill is is recommending that that go away and Joel Bard is agreeing that that can be done The nine lots are worth a lot of money You know, I don't know exactly what they're being sold for these days But if the estimate to finish the road is nine hundred and thirty thousand dollars nine lots are worth more than nine hundred and thirty thousand dollars and the town holds the ability to Get the money out of those lots With the Covenant, I'm glad you asked that so we do a new Covenant, but the performance the existing bond goes away Why that would go? Yeah If I could add to that so I Think this idea of the Covenant makes sense. I'd keep the bond You know extra insurance and when the sentence in this letter to Fino hereby elects to terminate the existing agreement That's just not the way things work. We have a written contract. That's enforceable and you just can't say I'm taking my toys home You know, so I I would recommend just letting that sit keeping the bond and then doing the Covenant. I don't understand I Don't understand Like I read what they wrote but when Miss Bester was explaining it, I assumed you were only talking about the Covenant part Yeah, so I guess you could you So I'll have to go back to your book and ask about that right I don't I think I guess effectively there's no difference But to restore the Covenant restricting the release of the lots versus The planning board rescinding its decision to release the lots It seems like really kind of parse No, actually, I can see differences there That's what that's what mr. Bard was Proposing was to and that's what mr. Bill is proposing is that it's restoring the Covenant It's not acting on the Covenant to restrict. It's not acting on the prior planning board decision Yeah David, maybe you could explain this. Is that it is that a Difference without a distinction. I don't understand Why it's different it seems a little more protective of the planning board in the town and that's I think In the interest that I think we have thank you. I Also remember mr. Bard saying that he couldn't find a case of a Commonwealth planning board rescinding lots so it was sort of a Fuzzy unknown area even though. Yeah unknown Okay, so that sounds good I still also if you're asking them, you know, they say and to the construction season I'd rather have a hard date whether it be like October 31st you know Construction or when the asphalt plants close like because that's hard to read it just takes an early snowstorm and All of a sudden you're like up out of time Anything else that we want Chris to either ask the Either of the lawyers or look into I don't see anything. So I was going to open it to public comment. Oh So Before the public comment Do you I have anything you I'll never turn down an opportunity. This is mr. Reedy not Not Tom that's right. Not the clicker clicker Good evening for the record Tom Reedy attorney with big and Wilson here in Amherst here on behalf of the residents of Amherst Hills I think the recommendation made tonight by you know, I think ultimately the full board from what I'm hearing but I think what miss McGowan said was a pretty on point, especially you I think it's if you haven't read the letter yet I think you have to read the letter and understand the tone of the letter And understand what to phenol just consistently is looking to do And it's I think it's just trying to skate some responsibility so our Suggestion would be to increase the security and if that's by way of covenant and keeping the performance bond You know that tribe party agreement. We think that both of those things together Serves to protect the residents. So the town has some collateral should to phenol not complete the roadway So but we just suggest you look at the tone because this is our what number meeting and they still haven't showed up And I you know, I think you just have to read it carefully, but yeah, we were supportive of the recommendation. I do believe you had a court date which is The suggestion of arbitration. I was wondering if that had started or if there was any movement. Yeah it has started and so there have been Some there's been a motion hearing in land court last week where again the representation was made by the phenol's council that they would Complete the roadway They also are to get the court a definitive number with quotes For how much it's going to cost to reconstruct and complete I believe that date is January 21st that we're going to get that feedback back And so we think you know with that track moving along and then with this track by the planning board ultimately I think you'll hear if you hear From the neighbors. They just want to make sure that these roads are going to get done I mean that's reconstructed and then completed so And ultimately we think the covenant and bond is the way to go So any questions from Mr. Riedi? Okay. I think they're we're all good So I am gonna open it up to public comment And I want everyone who feels they need to be heard to come up. I just asked like as Mr. Riedi said We've seen all of you a lot of times and we we hear you and I hope you see that we are Continuing to work on this and we are very sincere about it So if you want to come forward but again, you know, if you've heard someone else sort of say what you've said We hear it so and it looks like you get to come again in a few weeks So at this time I'll ask for a show of hands who would like to come up and speak tonight Raise your hands. I see I see two Three and I'll ask again after we have that but and you're on the fence. You're not okay So we've got three and and a half with mr. Master Alexis, so So the first three I'll start on the left hand side Yeah, if you two want to talk I'll go to the other two but I'm not gonna hold up the meeting for yeah, okay So I saw this gentleman. I think there's another man in blue behind. Oh, he's going out too. All right, so Sir, you're the only one I see right now with your hand up. Please come forward Repeat anything that I said before but please repeat your name For the minute takers and my name is Brian Scully. I live on 22 Hawthorne Road in Amherst Is your mic light on I just want to make sure and if it is green. Yeah, try to talk into the mic. Okay The first off I've we've always come a little earlier in the thing So tonight was the first time I had a chance to actually see what you guys do And it's the first time I've heard a developer talk and honestly, it's a really impressive thing I mean those guys they're clearly good honest developers They're telling you the things they want to change in the deals and everything else And you guys are thinking them through and asking good questions And then double-checking everything to make sure it's all kosher, you know, I mean it it's very impressive And again, I'd never seen it before so that isn't what I came up to talk about What I'm thank you. No, but I it's really something I don't know I don't watch the TV thing, you know, the you know But the thing I wanted to ask tonight because before I think I've asked you guys to try to put yourself in our shoes And I think you have I think you've given us a pretty fair hearing And you've done some good stopgap things to help us but tonight I'd like to ask you to put yourself in to phenome shoes and base Try to figure out what their intentions are from their actions And I say that because everything they say is different than what they are going to do or what they have done We were approaching them in the summer of last year to try to get those potholes filled Because they were dangerous. I mean never mind cars could get damaged or anything But kids were driving their bikes around or kids or cars were coming at the same time as a kid And they're swinging into the other lane because they don't want to damage their car So it was a serious thing and they said don't worry. We're gonna take care of it Ted Parker had a heart operation in April, but we're out of the summer don't worry And then we finally called them in to talk to us in person in September and it was like Oh, yeah, don't worry. We're gonna take care of it. We're gonna have it all squared away. Don't worry. No, no problem I'm gonna see to Jason skills in two weeks. He's gonna tell me what he needs and boom. It's gonna be done Well, nothing and then we came here to complain to you guys and let you know what's going on and You decide you're gonna go out two days or one day before you came out. That's when they did it Okay, so their feet were to the fire, but here's the thing if they're gonna do what they say in that letter They're gonna take care of everything. They're gonna, you know, figure out the cost. They're gonna pay for it They're gonna do the whole thing Why aren't they here telling you that if it was me? I'd be crowing to everybody saying I am so Unfairly accused here. I'm just a businessman who's trying to do my best. That's not what they're doing They're sending letters instead of coming here and telling you and they're saying things like, you know Rechanged this covenant. I guess that means a contract or whatever But if they're saying don't worry, we're footing the bill on this Why wouldn't they increase the bond if it costs less than what Jason skills thought it would they won't spend it The money's not gonna be gone. They'll get to keep it. I mean, why is that? Why are they Sounds like trying to get the bond to disappear in lieu of these lots and I don't have as quite a high opinion of The value of the lots to be honest with you because the roads are gonna be in such terrible shape Who's gonna want to buy a house or build a house when they know they're gonna have a 20 or $30,000 share of Having to build the road so Amherst can take them So I don't think they're doing us any favors here and I do wonder the bonds seem like such a good idea And you guys negotiated in the beginning when it all made sense and the the prices were less than everything But everything has changed. Why aren't they willing to change the bond? It's not pop money out of their pocket if they don't spend it It's just a protection for us and I guess for the town that we don't have to reach into our pockets and do it I'm not selling my house. I'm I'm here. I'm here for life But there are people who want to and they can't just for that reason and those lots Yeah, they're pretty some of them are really nice some of them aren't some of them are kind of wooded And some are are gonna have trouble with the the conservation commission So I don't know if they're worth as much as everybody says But just go by what they're doing is and saying as opposed to what they're promising And I don't see anything coming through if that guy sat here right now and said yeah I'm gonna pick up the tab. We're gonna raise the bond. We're gonna do this you'd have hundred people applauding them Why isn't he why aren't they taking credit for doing the decent right thing? I don't think they're gonna and I think this guy pill is a really smart lawyer and It's way smarter than me because I didn't see thank God you saw the thing about the the bond disappear And or whoever saw that Jesus that's scary. I mean, that's the only thing you really got that's worth 300 grand You know the God knows what those other things are so I'm just asking you ask yourself Why what are they really doing here? You know because you've identified with us really well I think you understand what it's like to be us, but if you're looking at them I swear to God I'd be I'd be running for mayor because I'd be telling everybody how great I am because I'm making my I'm keeping my deal I made a lot of money and I everybody's off the hook. They're not doing that. Thank you, and I'm sorry. I talked so long Thank you So I'm gonna ask again after there's been conversations How many people would like to come forward and talk if I can see a show of hands? I see Three hands, so I'll go from the left and there's two and three welcome just remember to State your name and address. Hi Blake Spirko 53 conquered way I'm just again gonna ask because it seems like we keep doing this is asked that we increase the bond I am concerned that five of those lots have vernal pools There's meetings on the Conservation Commission, and they are not going to be worth Nearly that much money security. I think the you know Tafino Knows this that those are not going to be worth that much money and that And we were going to be then stuck where we were been talking about not having increased bond Because it won't be able to use though. They're gonna be of a little value Thank you And the other thing is there's other things beyond doing the road on that checklist that it's worth it as we know a Lot of money and that's what hot brook and Kestrel They have both coat the road is done, but they still haven't been able to finish get it submitted to the town There's you know all these other things like that that are on that punch list that the town manager gave us Thank you Thank you The second the gentleman in the blue in the back Please sir sit down and then speak into the mic because there's people at home all right very good watch this Yeah, good evening attorney Andrew Bass our represent Berkeem construction LLC Berkeem owns nine lots in this subdivision that's subject of this conversation I Think first of all that the lots that you're discussing as holding security that Tafino owns Those are practically Unsellable so therefore they would not constitute sufficient security for The Tafino obligations to finish this road As it's been mentioned, there's some vernal pools and various issues, but more importantly last week Through the Land Court action to Fino encumbered everyone's lots by filing their litigation so Last week to Fino asked the Land Court to grant Notice of list pendants so no one can sell their properties anyway right now in the subdivision So I think on that front alone There should be an increase in the performance bond for Tafino to finish our obligations here and If you read this this letter from Michael pill, I believe that in itself is very troubling where he's saying that he Tafino will finish the road finish constructing the road But he's going to leave it up to the Land Court to stick it to all the homeowners and hold them responsible for whatever fees they Decide to incur in finishing the road so ultimately they're saying yeah We're gonna finish a road and then we're gonna backcharge everyone that owns a home in this subdivision You know, it's just not right. That's not what the agreement said. That's not what Tafino agreed to with the town By by developing this subdivision they agreed to construct all of the ways and to finish those ways and That includes the infrastructure base coats drainage systems everything so Unfortunately, I think Tafino is in a position right now where they're going to have to put up more security And that's not going to come in the form of these lots. It needs to come in the form of money So that's that's really all I had to say tonight Thank you Welcome if you can introduce yourself. Yes. Thank you. Alexandra. May you 73 Lyndon Ridge Road Happy new year. Good to see you again So so I would like to urge you like you heard previously From a few of us here to first check what these lots are worth because before proceeding with this particular Suggestion because we do think that there's something fishy here But the other thing separate topic that I want to bring up is is mostly request for some clarifications So when we are saying we expect the roads to be done by some certain date. Does that include the top coat? Does that include the town engineer verifying that this has been done up to the town standards? Is this the time that the town the board you would or whoever is responsible for this? Decide whether the roads will be adopted by the town. The reason I'm asking for these clarifications is because construction is not quite finished in our neighborhood. There are some laws that haven't been constructed and You know what is going to happen if roads get Destroyed later on by construction tracks and so on so forth So I would like to understand exactly what we're agreeing to here. Thank you Thank you Chris so just you know, there's a good point in there that You know finishing construction is one thing and then there's the whole process of the town accepting a road They're two separate things Yeah, so the town council will have to accept the road the town council goes out and does They call laying out the road. That's what the select board used to do They do that on the advice of the town engineer the town engineer will inspect the road as it's being constructed And if it's not constructed in accordance with the town standards, then the town engineer will recommend that the road not Be accepted by the town Right and part of the cost estimate the the listing of the actual items that the town engineer did those You know that was done With Tofino so that's sort of like the agreed things that are expected to be done It's not the final list But that's sort of how everyone was trying to stay on the same page, but it doesn't happen all at the same time Does anyone have any other questions or comments this time I see I saw Jack first and then Michael How What provisions would there be in terms of monitoring the repair of the area is is town engineer Going to be called upon to approve That the sections and is that clear in the understanding of the of the paperwork that we're Trying to communicate I'm not party to the communications between the town engineer and the contractor But I know the town engineer goes out and inspects these roads when they're being constructed So if he knows that the road is being constructed he'll go out and look at it if he hasn't seen it Then he's not going to improve it. He needs to inspect the material as it's being put down So is that an answer to your question? I'm just wondering if it if it should be you know include in writing to some extent that they that will be done and That they have to inform the town engineer their schedule of construction and If there's a change they need to tell him so that he can be out there when they're Reconstructing and lay in the final coat. He would have done this it over in the kestrel neighborhood he He's worked with Tofino and That's standard business, but like I said the accepting of the road is a different animal Any other oh at so Michael and then Maria This goes to the question of the adequacy of a covenant several two of the Folks who protestify tonight Referred to vernal presence of vernal pools in some or all of the existing nine lots that we're talking about I'd like some more information from somebody about how many vernal pools are involved in how many lots And whether or not those pools make the lots essentially unbuildable and useless for for development if anybody has any information about that I would be anxious to hear it Chris maybe if If there are maybe we should have Jason skills come to that next meeting so that He can be available to answer questions like that. It's the drainage swales He had sort of talked about how there's a lot of growth and they need to be cleaned out. I don't think they directly impact Houses Do you want to hear if I may you may want to check with the conservation agent? Just because I think we're talking about you know tension basins are one thing but vernal pools or something totally different that can Prevent development of the lot and so I think what we're hearing is that if those lots are undevelopable or minimally Developable the security isn't what we're being led to believe So I think Aaron jakes is the the woman who's the conservation agent Maybe have a conversation and my point is that that's not really what's in play here with us like the vernal pools And I do want to hear about value of lots But we're not going to get into the problems of the lots and why some are more valuable than others I think we just want to focus on the covenant and then hear about the value of the lot And we want to look at the performance bond But not get into existing problems with lots. I Respectfully disagree it seems to me that the perfect that the covenant is simply a way of assuring that sufficient income revenue Exists to provide the town with the wherewithal to finish the roadways and if the lots are in fact Not worth are not buildable then that's significantly affects their value And we should know that before we get into the question of using a covenant in lieu of a performance bond I think what if a lot is truly not buildable it will have a very diminished Value and that's one of the things we're asking like so I am saying let's ask what the value of the lots are If they are not buildable then they won't be worth very much But I don't really want to get into the details of the vet why one lot is more valuable and this one's not I I just want to know more of a total of those nine lots and an estimate of what they're valued at Because we're just looking at coverage of money. There's a performance bond that exists We're still in conflict where they've suggested to drop that we're saying we want to keep that We have various cost estimates and I also did I don't know Chris. I did ask for the town engineer to update his list is Yeah He was on vacation for two weeks, and then he came back with the flu So he's essentially been out for three weeks, and this is the first week. He's been back So I have asked him, but I don't know if you can put that on the list also So I think at this point Michael just what I'm saying is we're trying to collect the data I Just don't think it's really helpful if if if the residents start coming up and detailing about problems and different lots I'd rather have it either funneled through the lawyer We'll get values of the lots and then obviously you'll get to look at that and you can critique it and say oh We disagree with this or whatever. Do you expect to get values? So when you say we're gonna get a value Who is providing that value? I'm not sure who to get that Okay, right But and that's why at this point I don't want to start throwing no that's that's fine Suggesting we do that here. I was suggesting that we need to have that information prior to deciding whether it's absolutely a New covenant is appropriate. I just was not encouraging the public here to come up and start talking about values of lots perfect It's not helpful We'd rather get it from from other sources and then everybody gets the information everybody can look at it and comment on it and You can I see yep, let me go here And then if you have something else you want to come up again. Yep, hold on So speaking of money, so I wonder if there's a way to is Tofino's collecting all these estimates Finding out what estimates he's getting so you know Jason skills had a very high number because of The way he had to do it, but if the if it's coming in at a much lower number that'd be useful information to know for covered Well, that's I'll get to so one other question. I did have written here is they say in the letter You know that they're and they said this in there the previous so it's older now that they were seeking bids for actual work And we'll begin begin scheduling contractors. I was just wondering are they running RFPs, you know How are they soliciting the work? Are they just going? With through their connections or were they going to go through the official bidding process because that gives you numbers So I don't think they have to do anything with RFPs I think they're just asking for bids and I believe that they are working on getting those numbers by next By January 21st, which is a court date and the court has asked for those numbers So they are doing the bidding process because usually Okay, so we could get numbers from that too And then hold Okay, so I see Jack and then Maria and I'll get back to public comment Jack I'm just was I had a question for Chris About the process of we haven't seen a new subdivision come through You know last few years so But normally all these things would be mapped out say the the natural resources and that so I Assume that was done and then if there's vernal Yeah, I mean I'm just wondering if the changing conditions that you mentioned the stormwater creating things and and that and So Delineations of any kind of wetland resource areas are only good for three years So work could have been done back, you know A long time ago that wouldn't be relevant anymore I know that the applicant or excuse me the developer has gone to the concom recently with Some lots that he's proposing to develop or sell and he I don't know what the outcome of those Concom hearings were or which lots in particular they were about so I can find out about that information But normally what happens is the subdivision is created The roadway is built and then Individual lots as they come up for being developed are brought to the conservation Commission Because it wouldn't make sense to do the whole thing at once since all of this expires in three years Does that answer your question and I just want to add on because it was from someone had commented That is usually why their town doesn't accept a road until it's at least Over 90% build out because it's true continued construction just Destroys parts of the road so you don't want to have it finished too soon And the town doesn't want to accept it till it's nearly done, which is another concept Maria I Read this letter multiple times because I don't understand lawyer speak But I there's one part that really dumped on me that I think someone in the public brought up where it's nebulous What are we exactly agreeing to or what are they saying so? On page two they were reiterating what they already said which was to Fino intense before the end of the 2020 Construction season to do the roads, but then the very next paragraph. It says in addition The Tofino will do this additional work Right in addition apparently as a result demands by the lot owners the town now wants to figure to complete additional maintenance items Which will require additional time to complete so are they now adding on saying? Probably 2020 that was not including this additional request from the town From the lot owners, so I guess I'm not clear like are they now saying? That's not holding because there's it's not just about road work. It's a lot of other things So that's one thing just I'm still not clear exactly what they're saying and then Right, I mean say they do all the work And then those nine lots do get developed and then the large trucks rip up the roads were right back where we started So I'm not quite clear what We as a planning board want to really Agree to I guess one was the covenant, but then not lose the bond, but then Do we want to set a date or do we want the roads to completion? I mean there's a lot of things that I'm not sure What we're asking exactly So if to Fino completes the construction of the road and gets the town to accept the road Then the town is responsible for maintaining the road. So if it gets You know if it if it suffers where as a result of trucks moving over it or whatever once the town accepts it It's the town's road. I just want to add if you are going to ask Bard and pill to communicate whether this 2020 construction season sort of Promise that was listed is still holding or and they now saying because of this additional maintenance items. It's change Of course so I view the additional maintenance that he's talking about as being The work that Jason skills described to us when we were on our site visit He said certain portions of the road need to be milled and Reconstructed certain portions of the base course and he gave us Proximate limits of what that is. So I believe that is what mr. Pill is referring to as Additional work because it wasn't work that to Fino initially Expected to have to do it would I don't know if mr. Scales is comfortable with this but on his scope of work It would be at least helpful to me if he had another column that marked items on that is either What he considers original construction or a maintenance item I think he did do that because he talked about milling certain areas and Those were specific and I think it amounted to about two hundred thousand dollars, but I can go back and ask him that question Yeah, because there was other little It's a big spreadsheet Yeah, just ask him while he's going through it because if he can mark what's been done too That was the other thing the because they refer to that. I don't think it's a lot of things on the list, but Any one else Questions, okay, so I'll go back to the public and I'll ask who would like to come up and speak I See two people who would like to come up is a second time. Do I see any other hands? No, and You want to speak after them? Yeah Can I request that? Well, we've we've heard You know, you know how many times you've all have been here and we've been here as well that that there be that one resist Characterizing the developer who's not present here and what your feelings are the course of conduct that's occurred We've heard a lot of it, but I don't think it helps your argument to disparage Absent parties here. Okay For the sake of there. This is going to continue We're trying to where we're trying to understand it, but it doesn't I don't think it helps your cause to disparage Parties that are not present Thanks, so I'm gonna start to the left and one and then two and And then you so come up and where it's your second time I will ask to try to keep it as brief as possible to new information And you do have to state your name, okay, like Spirko 53 conquered way I just wanted to say that it'll be very difficult immediately to find the value of five of those lots because The conservation Commission is trying to look at it now to see what's build the ball and it sounded like to me The best I could tell is it's going to take until the spring to figure out that How much is affected and I'm not the expert in that and therefore it's gonna be very hard and then Near term to figure out what is the value of the five of those lots and I just have a question I just don't know. I don't know if we can say what the other four lots are from are they on the cul-de-sac that has not even the original paving The other four lots were purchased by Burkume, and so those are out of the out of consideration in this Whatever this is proceeding That's all Thank you And again speak into the mic and give your name again. Thank you very much attorney Andrew Bass on Piappa Birkin construction LLC Owner have various lots in this subdivision. That's a question here. I think First of all, I do find that Very troubling that attorney pill and tofino are not here tonight actually So despite whatever disparaging comments may be coming their way This is a very very important matter for all of these people and They're not here. I mean, you know, that's just troubling itself second of all I think that there's some very significant misrepresentations Being made to this board last week in Landcourt attorney pill told the judge that the cost to reconstruct the road was around $175,000 now he's coming in here with this letter and saying that You know, whatever the cost may be they'll do it. We don't know what that cost is the numbers bouncing around The fact of the matter is is that when tofino started this subdivision they agreed to construct the road Now I believe that it's not their intention to pay for that They're going to pay for it initially and then they're going to backcharge the homeowners for something that they were Obligated to do the begin with Which is another very very troubling thing To sell these houses they've made millions of dollars off all these people and they're coming back And they're suing these people that bought the houses from them to pay for the road that they promised the town they would complete So these were very troubling things that need to be addressed by this board immediately Now secondly As a brief anecdote to the value of those lots that the board intends on holding a security possibly My client purchased Whatever buildable lots there were my client gave tofino over a million dollars over the last couple years And there are no lots that my client wanted to buy that were left that were Buildable or profitable now you can take that for what it's worth But my client's been building houses in its area for over 30 years and it you know if he didn't want those lots I'm sure no one else is gonna want those lots for that price. So that's that's pretty much it I see Are there other people who want to speak I see one two two more hands. Is that what I see? Okay Okay, so I'll go with this gentleman then you're next and Then you Hi, I'm Tim Farnam at 56land in Ridge Road. Just one very quick question There's a cul-de-sac that maybe this has been dealt with and before but that hasn't doesn't have any paving down yet at all Is that part of what they're gonna finish? So my question is then it in any kind of agreement that happens if Well, I guess that's that's for later. You're not gonna be able to answer that but that's not included in the in the in the finish Okay, sir My name is Angelo Mazzocco 57 Linton Ridge Road The last time I addressed the board I told you guys that Ted Parker and tofino cannot be trusted Now a gentleman before me said that he's gonna live in the house for the rest of his life But that's not the case in my situation. I need to sell the house Excuse me for Financial and personal reasons and this matter is jeopardizing a very important procedure So what I would recommend Which I think would resolve many of the issues is that the board Establish at that line when the road work is to be completed. I believe that it was mentioned Beginning of 2021 I believe that's too late They've had a great deal of time They should be able to do the work by the middle of 2020 so if that can be accomplished I personally personally would be very grateful. Thank you. I'll just repeat again Chris that You know, we had suggested July 1st and they came back and said end of the construction season And I'm still pushing for like an October 31st or a firm deadline at least to get that written in a letter Okay All right. Good evening members of the board. My name is James master Lexus. I live at 35 Linton Ridge Road And thank you for hearing us once again this evening and to all my neighbors for hearing them as well So there's just a couple things that I wanted to mention First of all and I don't know the answer to this But I want to bring this to your attention there there is a covenant in this matter Which I believe is 19 and I come he's 2003. I believe it is so my question is If a new covenant is entered into does it replace that? Covenant that was in place which said in paragraph one The work on the ground needs to be completed before the lots are released Which led to this whole issue when we identified that to say well the work isn't done and the lots were released So my question is and you don't have to answer tonight I'm not saying that but this is a little bit complicated that where there is a covenant in place And would this covenant that we are now entering into would it replace that so I just want to bring that to your attention so We don't unintentionally make a mistake and I raised that Because of my friend Tim Tim Farnham who came earlier who? Discussed a raise the undeveloped and unpaved section of the road I believe and it could be wrong, but I want to bring this to your attention and maybe town council's attention I think it's a valid question Did that previous covenant cover the Under on the cul-de-sac road that's not paved okay that may cover the cul-de-sac road This new one may not cover the cul-de-sac road. So that's a question that we cannot ignore. Okay, I Think and I don't I don't want to talk about the lawsuits But I think the one of the issues here with increasing security, okay I'm comfortable that we're gonna win that lawsuit where we're correct on this score Okay, and if we win the lawsuit there's always an Possibility okay that and we talked about this the last meeting that Tafino just walks away You know we win they lose they leave so that's the one of the reasons why I think the security needs to be increased And I hope mr. Pill and I hope Tafino does what he says here that they're gonna do the work and then there's not a problem But if he doesn't and then we prevail and then we don't have to pay I Think there's a question and and a risk and we don't when you plan these subdivisions We try I think the town and your body The body of the planning board tries to minimize these risks. So I think that's that is an important point here I Also think that there's a disconnect Between what your engineer Jason skill who's been out to our neighborhood many times and has done a lot of work in The town what he's saying needs to be done and what Tafino is saying needs to be done Okay, now I'm not an engineer. Okay, I don't know what's right, but you know Tafino saying it's a hundred and seventy five thousand They made that representation in court. That's fine. If that's true and the road gets done great I don't want anyone to spend money that they don't have to spend. I'm not looking for a high number I'm not looking for a high number But there's a disconnect between what your engineer is saying and what Tafino is saying so it that has to be resolved And I just wanted to say madam chairwoman, you know, we don't look at anything here as maintenance Okay, I just I know you use that word. I know it's been kicked around this. This is a complicated matter Okay, we're looking at this as reconstruction. Okay, we've got you know We're on a half constructed road all the people behind me are living on a half constructed road and through the passage of time and Construction that road is deteriorated and in the three-party agreement. Okay on page three that Tafino drafted themselves It says the security in this matter shall also shall always have a relation To the to the total cost Needed to finish the subdivision. Okay, including Damage to previously constructed work Okay, so the security needs to be Have a relation to the work needed to be done in the subdivision including Previous damage to previously constructed work. So the word maintenance here is convenient, but it's inaccurate we're talking about reconstruction of damaged previously constructed work, so I think when you put those things together Increased security in this matter protects All of us we are the town the town is behind us The people you know the Constitution we the people that's why we're all here in the first place the people Give the government the power to do To regulate us to govern us and you've done it and I think my friend Brian was right this evening He did a great job on the previous building, you know, you do good work here. Okay, but we're in a situation that Having to reconstruct a road is a fiction. It's just a fiction that needs to stop. Okay I'm glad Members of the board picked out the tone of mr. Pill's letter Switching gears a little bit here the tone of mr. Pill's letter He punches you in the nose a little bit and he says oh you you put the Amoratorium on the building permits and this a in an expatri hearing meaning without us alone You've been we've invited them to every meeting and they haven't come and they say on page two of their letter in paragraph two It's an expatri hearing. No, it's not It's not expatriate They in the last paragraph I'm glad miss McGowan picked this out. They're saying they're going to elect to Withdraw from the agreement the three-party agreement that has the town of Amherst and Greenfield savings back yet. They say they can withdraw Then no they can't in my view. Okay, and you shouldn't let them because in the three-party agreement You know who can enforce that three-party agreement. It says right in there in the last two paragraphs the planning board if you and I'm not saying this I'm not saying you should do this, but if you wanted to tonight You could vote to call in that bond of two hundred and eighty eight thousand dollars You could vote to do that because it says the planning board can enforce this and I'm not suggesting you do that Because this but because this is a complicated matter and when we not me when you're and your town council draft this covenant Okay, I would suggest that we have Some conversations before it comes back to you to say did you know are there things that we need to look at like the undeveloped road, okay Because it's a complicated matter And I just had one other thing I wanted to say but it just skipped out of my mind. I'm sorry So I thank you for your concern, okay But as you can tell from my friend Angelo who just preceded me here, okay To several people in our neighborhood who want to move on from the neighborhood, okay? This is a tough one, you know, we're not a construction company with people who in many instances, you know worked hard Put all the money that we had up to buy the nicest house that we could buy And now some of our neighbors need to sell and we can't and I know mr. Precume I've spoken to him can't because if you buy into our neighborhood now your you've become 170th of a construction company if you take to Finno's theory in this case So I hope I'm mr. Levenstein I didn't say anything that was negative to anybody and I thank you for that concern and I agree with you We should make this decision on the facts but the facts are The work wasn't done in pursuant to the three-party agreement by June 30th 19 on June 30th 2019 you can require additional security That language was written by to Fino and I think in the end I'm not opposed to a rewritten covenant if it covers all those bases that I Discussed that we have security so in the end we don't come back here in three years and say and say to Finno's gone But we're still here and someone's got to reconstruct that road and it's not going to be us Thank you very much, and I appreciate your time Thank you. Thank you So unless there's Chris. Yes, I just wanted to say one thing I think and this may not be true, but perhaps mr. Really knows I understand that the hundred and seventy-five thousand dollars is not the price of Finishing the road. I think the hundred and seventy-five thousand dollars is repairing the parts of the road that have deteriorated So mr. Really might correct me if I'm wrong Thank you for that And if there's no more questions from the board then I think we'll move on for this Meeting and we'll continue this on February 5th, and I see no hands. So thank you all for coming ongoing process Thanks So I'm just going to stall for a minute here because it will be noisy Okay, I'm going to continue now I'm going to move to item five. It's master plan update I asked the members if it would be all right if I can move item B in front of item a which So we would talk about the master plan For the planning board and then we'll get into a and see the CRC memo regarding The process involving them in town council with the master plan update So if we move to item B It's The item is vote to agree to move ahead with the master plan update I'm going to ask Chris Bester to sort of update us on on where we are with her and and is a her role in guiding us as a Planning board and to you know Repeat about how it's it's part of our jurisdiction and and Why it's overdue and why we need to do it and then I thought it would just be a good idea to take a vote on it voting some kind of motion saying that we were going to begin the process of Updating the master plan and that plant at the details of that Chris will start to elaborate on and we'll work on over the next month Do you want me to start? Yeah, please. Thanks. So I'm There have been questions raised about the timing of this update It's certainly True that the master plan calls for updating the master plan every five years and It was completed in 2010 At the year 2015 We had been through Let's see. Mr. Musanti passed away, and I took over as planning director from Jonathan Tucker who retired so That was a very Should we say tumultuous time? then we had How many how many town managers we had mr. Zomek we had mr Hacken-Blackner we had mr. Backelman. So there was a lot of transition during that period. It didn't seem appropriate to Try to update a master plan at that time then we started in the planning department putting Suggestions about updating the master plan into our capital budget Little increments $50,000 here and there That didn't get gain any traction because there are so many other things calling on the town to spend money on Then we had the transition from town meeting to town council And so that didn't seem an appropriate time to update the master plan when we were just having the town council getting its feet Under itself and establishing its own priorities and procedures so Now here we are ten years after the master plan was approved saying We want to update the master plan. We want to bring it into Conformance with the things that we're thinking about now. We're thinking about climate change We're thinking about resiliency of communities. We're thinking about sustainability those were things that we Might have talked about in the time leading up to the time the master plan was adopted in 2010 But they weren't at the forefront of our minds as they are now so the town council and The CRC and Staff have talked about Updating the master plan to get it to a point where the town council will feel comfortable in adopting it The town council is required by the new charter to adopt the master plan So There's sort of a choice to be made do we Go full bore and redo our master plan which would take years and would probably take a lot of money In terms of hiring consultants, or do we update the master plan now and then once we have information from the 2020 census? Perhaps in 2024 2025 we start an update of a master plan process that would culminate perhaps in 2030 The charter requires that the master plan be updated or revised. I can't remember the exact word every 20 years So we have one that was adopted in 2010 We have another one that's adopted in 2030 that follows that timeline so at this point we are proposing to update the master plan to bring it into conformance with the things that Everyone is talking about now Include updates of demographic information The population has probably changed since 2010. We're not really exactly sure but the master plan that was adopted in 2010 was based on the 2000 census because it started to be developed in 2005 so Bringing it up to date now with whatever census information we have or whatever Population information there is population information besides the census that we can use now But talking about how many dwelling units have we created how much? agricultural land have we preserved how much Conservation land have we conserved Purchased put under conservation restrictions. Those are all things that we can do now to update the master plan but to go out to you know a multi-year public process and You know involve the whole town in this process now when certainly the town council is absorbed with Continuing to set their own procedures and figure out what they're doing now They have four big capital projects that they're starting to grapple with they have a budget season coming up It's just not the right time in my opinion to Open up the master plan for a complete redo So updating it with what information we have currently Bringing into the master plan the things that people are really concerned about right now. That seems the right approach so what I'm suggesting is that planning department staff take take a stab at How to update the master plan and come up with a plan I've invited you to send me your comments If you have comments, I think I invited you a couple of meetings ago Mr. Burt whistle said he'd read the master plan three times So he probably has comments that he would like to offer But if any of you have comments about things that you feel particularly need to be addressed in this update I certainly want to hear those I have my own ideas and I've started putting together a list of the things That I think need to be addressed in this update. I would be consulting with you frequently probably Every meeting I could bring some pieces of this to you I'm proposing to update the master plan chapter by chapter That seems to be the right approach Maybe we bring in people who know about a particular topic like open space and recreation Maybe we want to talk to LSSE maybe we want to talk to the conservation Commission for economic development Maybe we want to bring in the economic development director So, you know each piece of it probably has someone who is very knowledgeable about that particular topic Transportation maybe we want to bring in people who are associated with the transportation advisory committee or the DPW So we have a lot of resources here But I think we can do it small you update in-house with the planning boards cooperation and help and I don't feel like we really need to go out and do a complete rewrite Does anyone have any? questions Michael Yeah, do you do you miss Brestrup? Do you find the? Six-month timetable suggested by the CRC to be workable given the fact that you may want to approach this Chapter by chapter and that presumably the planning board will talk about a chapter by chapter. That's ten chapters That's 20 weeks if we talk about a one chapter every week There's there's our six months and then it goes into the fact that it's got to go to the CRC Comments and then to the to the council and then back to us I mean it seems like about eight steps in there I can't remember them all because it's very convoluted and I don't see how that could possibly happen within the time frame that They're talking about Chris My own impression is that the six-month timetable is really an indication from the CRC about the level of Update that they want done prior in other words. They don't want 18 months two years three years taken on Making this update they need to Grapple with a lot of zoning amendments that are going to be coming at them. They want to have some basis on which to Decide whether zoning amendments are appropriate or not if they haven't adopted the master plan They don't really have that basis. So I think what they want to do is get the master plan adopted as An updated version and then they'll be able to grapple with zoning amendments. So I don't really think that the six months is Workable, I think it's probably going to be more like nine months. Maybe it's going to take us a year like you said maybe we take One chapter a month or something like that I don't think we can really judge that until we get into it some chapters are going to take a lot more work than other chapters I think that the transportation plan that we did in 2015 did a really good job of looking at transportation issues And I know there are things that we need to update But I don't feel like there is a lot of work that needs to be done on that topic in terms of land use I think there's probably a lot that we need to do there and that's probably going to take a long time Economic development. Well, you know, we've had an economic development director. I understand he may be moving on but in the event I think the town has a good grasp of economic development And probably the planning board isn't going to do a lot of heavy lifting on that particular chapter so different chapters will take a different amount of effort a different amount of input from others and I Agree with you that that six months seems like a very short time to me But I don't think it's going to take a year or 18 months. I Agree with you. I think there's just a sincerity They're trying to stress that if you look at there's any bylaw changes that they have to approve They're supposed to have the master plan approved Adopted under them. So they know that there's a lot of bylaw changes that need to happen and are going to be coming up So I think they just really want to get the master plan updated enough that the the town council feels comfortable with it and they're willing to adopt it knowing it's not perfect, but it's a framework and And Chris we also talked about how as we go through this process We will realize there are a lot of areas that are very complicated and too complicated to deal with right now and I think we were sort of using the metaphor of like putting them in a basket on the side and then It will be kind of good to go through this process because it will get us very organized and identify areas that need to have a lot of attention and consultants and More public process or whatever that will set us up for doing a full master plan update So I think little you is is key that you're saying but even looking at it Realistically if you went six months from now at summertime and that would never be the time that the town council would want us to deliver I knew about master plan anyways realistically. It is the fall at the earliest When you know people are around and the town council's you know, it's fall ready for work. So Realistically at a minimum it probably is eight or nine months And just to remember that the CRC memo doesn't really besides updating them That's after we we've passed it and and approved it and moved it to them So that's sort of after we've done our part Any yep, Michael do you have to come back to us again not necessarily not if they adopt it Ideally they're they're good with it and they adopt it. Yes, you're right They could ask for things to be changed and those changes have to be come back to us But ideally that's why the CRC memo is important that they're trying to Find a way that their town council members are feeling updated through the entire process and sort of coming up to speed on The more intimately with the master plan then it's not we just bring it to them and say hey read it and these are the changes So that's what the CRC memo is trying to do How do you suppose the process of the CRC is being involved? Will go it seems to me that that's A complicated and problematic at the same time. What is your sense and this breast strip sense of the way in which Presumably the master plan is the is the planning board responsibility. How is the CRC going to? Keep track of what we're doing or have input or what whatever there whatever the verb is How's that gonna work? Well, it sort of says it in in the CRC. I don't think it does they want very very very vague and it says that they want to have input What does that mean? Yeah, so if you if you read the memo they want regular updates and They I they're waiting so part of it is they're waiting for us to define how we're going to Update the master plan in what process and this is what miss bestrup is sort of starting to carve out now It's going to be chapter by chapter. We haven't got to this but we talked about this in the zoning subcommittee and how it will funnel through that and CRC will be you know probably send a representative and be listening and then there'll be certain times where Like we send them a final draft before we approve it and that's when we ask for their comments and then we address their comments and hopefully Because we've gotten their feedback. There's no surprises and we approve the master plan and then they will vote to adopt it You just said something about the zoning subcommittee being Yeah, involved right now. Yeah, that that's yet another layer of involvement that wasn't referred to in the menu in the memo Because it doesn't involve them if that's our process I understand but so what what's gonna happen is that the zoning subcommittee is going to review that the changes that the planning department has suggested and then bring those suggestions to the full board and the full board is going to debate and discuss them and Then send them back. I mean We're adding another layer here, which I hadn't Atticivated given them. I understand that that's internal, but it all fits into that six months Or which is now a year we've decided but whatever that time frame right it extends the complication of the deliberation And that's where I'm really concerned that we're getting so involved in back and forth between this committee The sub zoning subcommittee and the CRC that we've gotten way too much Communication complication going on. Well, let me just remind you how it worked with like town meeting Articles were drafted in the zoning subcommittee. That's why we have it So that's sort of the working group and they work with staff who does the bulk of the work So staff brings it to zoning subcommittee and that sort of you get to work out a lot of the kinks and do the reviews And of course you are welcome to join the zoning subcommittee everyone on this board is welcome to be a part of that so it would come there and Just like the articles, you know getting it's the same thing as like getting them ready for town meeting So zoning subcommittee would like grind it through the first time Or maybe a second time and then they would be like, okay We don't see anything wrong with this now We're going to bring it to the planning board and then the whole planning board looks at it and gives their comments and feedback And the whole time we're working with miss best drop and she's the one who's taking the comments back and and Re-updating so it's not like this is a new process for we're just saying we're going to treat it like we've been doing all of our works Before you know in the zoning by-law change is the same thing will happen It goes through zoning subcommittee keeps getting reviewed there and then it comes here But just I just want to back up one thing so Chris and I kind of didn't want to do this tonight This is for another discussion another night will be here all night if we actually try to Drill out how we are actually going to do this whether it's six months or a year or You know if Chris has to get a consultant Or you know like that could all happen as we drill down You know Chris we had talked at zoning subcommittee about kind of doing a draft run taking a chapter And she would start with one chapter and we'll see how it goes It will tell a lot if if we get bound up on one chapter will then we're like okay We're going to have to rethink this a little or get a consultant But we don't want to get into the weeds of that tonight the just of this is that this is our responsibility We are overdue on doing this there were good reasons why our Director is telling us that she has been directed to do it if you read the charter It says that the town manager and the planning board are supposed to be doing this So I'm saying we need to Do our job and take the initiative up and at least try this is and Chris bestrup is is ready to lead us and do the work and will fit it could be bumpy and it could be big and maybe It won't end up the way we we hope but I think we need to Officially vote and say yeah, we have to take this on. This is one of this is our first priority for 2020 Because we can't even do bylaw changes until we get this master plan adopted by the town council Who says it says in the charter Show me where it says that in the charter Does not say it says that all by law Changes need to be reflective of the master plan and we have a master It hasn't but it has the end the master plan has to be adopted by the town council Not according to the state bylaw Not according to but by our charter that trumps the Massachusetts law you're right Are you mean our charter trumps the Massachusetts state law for that? Yes? We have to follow our charter Massachusetts does not say that you that's why this we didn't have it done before you Didn't have to have your select board according to Massachusetts But we have a charter that we have filed with the state of Massachusetts and it says that our town council has to Approve the master plan and they have made it very clear if you listen to their last meeting last week That they don't want to adopt the plan currently They just would like it a little bit more Updated so that all the members feel better about it Some would probably adopt it right now, but they want to make sure they get the vote and that there's been a bit of a That due diligence like I said, this is our job We are supposed to be doing this and it's already overdue so I feel that we need to do our job and Make an attempt to update the master plan in the most expedient manner possible so that we can get it to the town council And they can adopt it and we can start making Zoning changes I'm gonna let Chris talk and then you but she chops you I just wanted to say that I think that the CRC is more of a conduit Between the planning board and town council the CRC is going to be delivering Messages about what it is you're working on how you're doing what the tone of your work is The what some of the subjects that you're gonna cover They're not gonna get into the details about the master plan. They may have suggestions. They may have recommendations But that's it's not their job Their job is to keep the town council informed enough about what you're doing So when this finally comes to town council town council will feel like oh, we know what's been going on with this I think we can vote for this otherwise town council is gonna be kind of You know off doing what they do and you'll be doing what you do and there won't be that line of communication So for me the CRC is the line of communication between the planning board and town council And they're not going to be you know working on a daily basis with you about the wording of this that or the other thing That was a lot. Um, so I've been thinking since the zoning subcommittee meeting and I've been doing some research on how you update a master plan Which I mean, which is obviously there's many ways and I'd like to sort of just I know we could talk about this for seven hours And um, but I would like to uncouple some things is that first I think we can all agree I think we're all agree that we need to update the master plan and it's overdue. So That's one that's one piece. The second question is How will the planning board do that and that that I think is a whole separate discussion. I have a lot of ideas for it I wish that the town council Would uncouple and I don't know I don't really know what's going on with that and have enough information their need and desire to adopt a master plan and hope they uncouple that from Zoning changes. There's a lot of very needed urgent sort of zoning changes that we need and I think that I don't think the charter says that they can't Do any zoning changes until they adopt a master plan because we already have they say it has to be in a Conformance with the master plan and we have one legally in effect And so I just hope like if people if everyone can sort of separate that out a little bit And then I think there's another discussion, which is I think what Michael's not talking about is I think it is really confusing to figure out how the planning board and the planning department can work with CRC and if we're doing the master plan at every You know bits of it at every planning board meeting and this someone has to sit here and then You know, it's just to me it is seems very chaotic and confusing and it seems like we're not going to do a great job Because our planning board meetings aren't we are we're so packed We you know, we haven't gotten to things that we tried to get to you know months ago The other thing I would like to uncouple is I would like to take this task away from the zoning subcommittee Which has been focusing on zoning and hopefully has some expertise on there's so many things that we need to work on And so I think as a possible process thing is that we form a master plan Standing committee which we can do under our bylaws or our own regulations and have that committee kind of form and work with Christine and look at processes and try to figure out what's a good process and bring it back to the planning board and So and the good thing about having a standing committee for the master plan is it's obviously doesn't have to meet every day of the week or every year But it can do that updating process and then kind of keep monitoring and then go to the full-on And so those people will have that experience and so I don't think this I would like to uncouple this work of updating the plan From the zoning subcommittee. I think those are very separate things So so I'm just trying to but let's I think maybe your first instinct was right let's just agree that we need to update the master plan and the timing and the processes of the various interactions are Worthy of a much longer discussion and the CRC thing and town council thing is confusing, but we're in a really confusing time The other thing I want to throw in is that Rob a Complete forgetting his name that the housing inspector the inspector is going to be doing as a bylaw update Himself and so I think that the zoning subcommittee should focus on that work and the 40 are and things that are coming down the pike pretty quickly and Stay kind of stick to their mission and let's do the standing committee on the master plan and focus on that separately. So I'm sorry. That was so long Chris So I don't think that forming a subcommittee of the planning board is a bad idea And it could be many of the same people all three of you who are on the zoning subcommittee It may be a wise idea to meet at a different time to discuss the master plan And maybe we don't want to bring master plan issues to every planning board meeting Maybe we want to have a one more meeting a month and to talk about Nothing but the master plan, but these are all things that can be worked out after you decide that you want to update the master plan Do any of the other members feel up for emotion for Updating the master plan Can I ask a question that just arose from what? What Janet said did I hear you say that? That Rob more was going to Do a bylaw a do a zoning bylaw rewrite? somebody somebody from town hall has asked him to do that or Chris so There are sort of two levels of a zoning bylaw rewrite One level is all the things that have been nagging at Inspection services the building commissioner and the planning department over the years about things that are conflicting in them in the zoning bylaw You encounter it yourself one portion of the sign bylaw says you can wave any portion of this sign bylaw Another portion says you have to have a special permit to do X. How do you reconcile those two things? We have this discussion every time we have an oversized sign Those are the kinds of things that really Bogged down the processes in town hall, so we need to get an Understanding of that there are portions of the bylaw that are inscrutable You can read them ten times and get ten different meanings out of it And we need to clear that up so everybody understands what the bylaw says Many of the things that Rob Mora will be dealing with are on that level If it works out, he can also include the things that you've already worked on like the Supplementary supplemental Dwelling unit one that you came up with and presented to town meeting that was not approved at that time But this may be the right time to approve that So there may be things that you've already done that we can slip in then the zoning subcommittee is continuing to work on Zoning bylaws and as those become ready. We can give those to Rob to fit in To his rewrite there may be things that are too big to fit into the rewrite and maybe those are things like inclusionary zoning Which are pretty big and very Potentially controversial, so maybe we have to pull those out. Maybe we get a Consultant to help us with that and we do have some money to get a consultant to help us with zoning bylaw, so We're going to figure it out as we go along, but we acknowledge at least we in town hall acknowledge that there are many really difficult aspects of our zoning bylaw that just don't work well and Taking it as a whole instead of taking each little piece that doesn't work well and bringing it to town council We think that it would be better to just really try to Redo the whole thing and bring that to town council So that's our current proposal Rob. Mara is planning to come to the February 19th planning board meeting and describe What his idea is and of course you're gonna have to buy into it or I shouldn't say it that way You will be invited to buy it and then you can make your decision as to whether you do or not and he'll be My much better Explainer than I am right now, but that's kind of what's going on here. You're a perfectly good explainer. Thank you very much David I would ask that when mr. Mara comes in February that he not And I mean I bought into the idea. I want I'd like the details I've been hearing about this for two years And I'm totally and sold on well, you know that there are what I'm Technical just inconsistencies glitches things that don't work operational it administratively But I'd like I mean I think that it sounds to me as if a list has Is has been and is in the process of being created? Let's get to it instead of talk about it getting to it. I would I would ask if at all possible and then as second I it's I Would move that the planning board begin to figure out how to update the master plan in a Circumstribed manner for presentation to the town council when when it's able to be presented and I would again sort of urge that we really be Narrow in our and the terms the categories are necessary and obvious that Mandy Joe's memo has and She seems to they see the CRC seems to have enumerated what necessary and obvious is it just stick with that With the caveat The most important thing to me it seems to be these four capital projects Which were which need to be included in the master plan and that were only it seems in the prior plan Casually mentioned as opposed to being at the forefront, which it seems like they were that would that was an oversight So I have sort of a hope that if we work out a good process It could it could go faster And so if we figure out a good process and going chapter by chapter might be too slow if we deal out the chapters like decks of cards and each You know, I don't know people on this committee each take one and you know work with Chris and talk to the you know Like if I'm doing transportation, I talked to the tack. I could you know, you know just do the rounds And we could do it simultaneously and not do it one by one by one because that might just we might just wind up Telescoping out into you know the next millennium and so so I just think I totally support the idea of updating the master Planet, I don't think anyone wants to go deep and redo the whole thing But I think that if we have a good process and it's you know coherent and we run it along I think it will have good results and I think we'll have a better plan at the end and better understanding But I still you know, so I'm behind this but I want to do it Well and think about that process and not also I don't want to burden the planning staff and Chris because like your list of to-dos for 2020 was a little scary and then no, I know that you're down the person too, so I Agree, I think we all want to do it. Well David was there a motion in that because I Move that the planning board move forward to update the master plan. How we do so is yet to be determined second Discussion questions All in favor And I see unanimous great so now we can put that on the Next agenda. I know zoning subcommittee is also talking about it Starting to work with you Chris and how you want to at least start our trial or whatever. Yeah so I understand that the CRC is proposing to bring their memo to the town council Sometimes soon and I want to say it's next week although. I'm not absolutely sure of that So I wondered if you wanted to Talk about the CRC memo that would be the next item I'm gonna back up from B because oh and go back to a which also involves C Thank you, which we have vote to support process Do we have to have a vote on that or can we just send them recommendations? I didn't know I think you can say American have a preference there So we have the CRC memo and we want to give some feedback Do we could just give recommendations or should we vote to support the memo? I'm not sure what CRC is Exactly looking forward to bring to town council I think mr. Zomick and miss hanky did Want the planning board to vote to support the process? Okay Along with recommendations along with because we could say we vote but with these Considerations because I think we already identified one clearly with the six months. We want to say we hear them that they want this Donna in an expedient manner, but We're already probably looking at eight months to a year, but they could If they think a year is too long then they need to come back to us and you miss best Drop and tell you so that you can rework and Determine what you would need for resources to make that happen if it does need to be that quick Does that make sense to? Janet The spirit of the memo without Agreeing to the details because I do understand Michael's concerns and I did find it very complicated at the end and I think that The problem that everybody's grappling with is you know, we have our master plan and we have the authority over and we'll approve it and Then the town council Wants to approve a master plan and it wants to have some control over it And then there might be possibly different opinions on the town council or as there'll be different opinions here and I just I fear getting into a long back and forth and then also what if there's just disagreement and so you know, we're going to update and adopt a master plan and they could Disagree with that and then adopt their own master plan You know, that's not a great end or but the charter has that confusion And so I appreciate the spirit of trying to do it quickly not going you know the deepest dive I appreciate trying to figure out how to collaborate and work together. So there isn't that point But I can't I'm not sure I can say this is how it's gonna go when we don't even know how we're gonna go So it seems a little premature to say we're committed to this process But I appreciate the spirit of it just to remind you they don't approve it We approve it right. They're just adopting it and in the memo. That's why they at the time there It's almost like it will be a public meeting and it's formal they get a final draft and that is when they are supposed to Give all their feedback and their recommendations and that's when they're you know And CRC wants to make that clear that they're involved they're getting updates all along then they get a final draft they review it and then they give their feedback and Then we do whatever we you know do with those and then we approve it and then it gets presented To the town council to be adopted. Yes, you're right. There could be issues that get brought up But that's not what's supposed to happen. I mean we're trying to go with the process that they gave their feedback earlier and It's not after we've approved It's kind of like well, we've already because like like you all said the Massachusetts by Massachusetts law when we approve the master plan It is the master plan and we have a charter that they can They adopt it, but we're trying to not have it that it gets Detailed and and they they ask for changes after we've already adopted. That's kind of like awkward. It's it's wrong We'd encourage the CRC and town council members to participate in this process as we go through it and give input Yeah, so I'm just but just probably as any member of the public would too just to you know, we hear from them We know what their concerns are we're listening. We may not agree Yes, I just wanted to suggest that the CRC memo outlines a process that we're going to try And if there are aspects of it that become clearly troublesome and just don't work We'll go back to the CRC and we'll say how can we change this to make it better? It's not like it's carved in stone and it's going to be like this forever if it doesn't work So this is just kind of a starting point It's to get us started on this path to make clear whose responsibility is whose and It's a first time first time We're on uncharted territory here. Yes, Michael Why do we need to Vote to support the process described in the CRC menu in the first place. Why not just simply go ahead? We've already said we're going to go ahead move ahead with the master plan update. Why don't we just do that? I'm not willing to support the process as described in the CRC menu. I the memo I think it's confusing and Excessively complicated. I think if we just go ahead and do what we said We were going to do a minute ago and go ahead with the master plan update without knowing exactly how that's going to happen But having a reasonable idea of how that's going to happen. Doesn't that solve the problem? I I just want to answer his question Because I'm the chair and I'm repeating what Mandy Joe and And Mr. Zomek said when they came here all I was going to say is Chris just said that they asked for us to vote on it I had asked earlier. Why do we have to vote on it? And she said because they asked now? That doesn't mean we have to so I that's all I wanted to just Repeat what was said earlier David I agree with Michael and I think Janet. I don't think that We need to I think that we've we've agreed to move forward and updating the master plan That this is calm complicated. I do have a lot of concerns about the bureaucracy creep, which is think is Is is is not productive that we I think again look forward narrow revisions for necessary and obvious That's been outlined or suggested here and that we You know proceed and that that's all that's efficient. That's the CRC and town council they can do with their internal You know debates, but this is our work then this is our work and there you go Okay, so we have a memo here that we received from CRC That they're gonna send to town council and I think we've been asked do we We don't have to vote on it, but do we? Agree with the process and if we don't what I'm asking you all is we have to tell them at what points in this We either need clarification or it needs to be changed. They're they're asking us for details on how to Because we we will go through our process. We will approve our Plan our master plan, but then it has to go to them to be adopted. So I think they're trying to It's setting expectations So if we have a problem with it, we need to be specific in where our problem is Yes, David I propose that the planning board move forward with Looking at changes to the master plan the currently approved master plan to update it to reflect Changes involving the form of government the transportation plan that can complete street policy Council climate action goals updated flood mapping and the open space and recreation plan since all of these necessary and obvious Changes originated outside. I believe of the planning board According to the charter according to the charter Section 9.8c Proposals to amend the master plan not originating in the planning board shall be submitted to the planning board for deliberation So I would ask that Chris breaststroke ask The people or the parties that have been responsible for these various work could who could Help amend and update the current master plan for those necessary and obvious changes enumerated by the CRC That they do so and submit them to us I don't understand Paragraph to the proposed process Paragraph to number last paragraph on page to CRC's definition of necessary and obvious includes So on and so forth what I bulleted changes in form of government transportation plan complete street policy There are other bodies that have done these this work that can submit to us I believe with greater authority Then we then any of us have here Because those other parties have worked on this material that they can submit to us What what those should what the updated master plan should look like reflecting that work? Well, I think we mean that the master plan would just refer to that document like I was the chair on the Transportation plan, but we dissolved five years ago So but so we don't like I think the up and this list of plans is not comprehensive there's a lot of other plans and so But it's not that they have to be written into the master plan They just have to be just mentioned like if you went to the transportation chapter It would say like in 2015 there's been a working plan great And so that's yeah, I can be done that that that whoever so for Steve that would be Chris The who whoever owns has or who wherever the transportation plan currently lives That that be Whoever where they're whoever you know in the town hall Has has greatest authority over that submits to Chris. Hey Master plan sections such-and-such such-and-such we covered it in our transportation plan of 2015 Let's let's add that note. Okay, so I think I see what's happening we're starting to slip into the actual details of how to get it done and Chris does have some ideas about this where like the transportation Chapter she would call on other staff members like the DPW or Stephanie and and Using these plans that are already accepted, you know sitting on a shelf But our our our processes and they would be in charge of writing it into the chapter, right? Several of these things have been incorporated by the planning board by reference already into the master plan the planning board actually voted to accept or to Bring the transportation plan into the master plan as part of the master plan because they recognize the fact that the Transportation section of the master plan itself was very weak. So that's why the effort was made We spent fifty thousand dollars on it in two years probably creating this transportation plan So incorporating it by reference seemed to be the right thing So I don't think we're going to be asking anybody to Update or rewrite or do anything to these various satellite plans if you will at this point We're just going to be kind of enveloping them and making sure that the text of the master plan actually Refers to them so people who read the master plan knows that those exist otherwise They would have to go back through planning board minutes to say oh the planning board Referred to this on such-and-such a date and incorporated it by reference. So it's really just a case of enveloping them and bringing them in at this point and then maybe in 2025 People will feel like oh transportation plan needs to be redone the open space and recreation plan has to be redone I think every five years. So these things all have a life of their own But I think you want to say yes, those are part of the master plan for now So yeah, that's my opinion. I can go hold on. I just want it Do you need any other information? So so I actually think that's not going to be a great process and Lead to a really weird result because the master plan is like a hundred plus pages And we have at least 600 pages of other plans and if we can't say oh our master plan is 750 pages go read it and follow it But I do think it would be fairly easy because you know having just read the transportation plan a bunch of stuff It's been done right and so we don't have to just say oh look at the transportation plan and the trans the transportation part The master plan is really weak But if we handed it to somebody who has been working on the transportation plan and said hey look at this section Look at your plan. Can you just pull in the key stuff and we'll have a new section? That's updated will refer to the longer plan, but we'll just be more current I don't think that's a huge lift for anybody who's really experienced if we refer to the housing production plan and the housing market plan plus the housing section and in the master plan you're going to be in this like labyrinth of conflicting and unclear things, but if having gone through those two plans You know a committee a group you could look at it and say and talk to the housing people Like what are the key things that we have to do and one of the problems and just you know pull it in not put in in 200 pages, but pull it in in concepts and updating so I actually don't think pulling Summarizing and pulling in the key stuff is going to be that hard I think we get on a slippery slope though If like you're right, maybe transportation or the housing one is pretty easy, but Chris has a lot of reports like you just said there's a lot I think we're just trying to do an update. We're not well That's actually why I don't think Chris and the planning department should be harnessed with this That's why I think we should have a committee that is Right it Do the work that's I do the right I could do writing from that You know I have some people who are worried about how much work it's be and now you're saying you're willing to write You know when I when I talked to when I talked to experts about it They say the first thing you should do is form a committee and look at your implementation See what you've done and then but that's for feedback and for comments and we're not for writing it Like town committees don't write like Okay, we're getting into the weeds again about how to do it and everybody has a different idea and a different amount of work they're willing to take on and Chris will come to us at the next meeting with more detail we can we'll be here all night if we try to figure out this plan I'm back on the CRC memo and I am looking for feedback specifics on where you need it you feel it's unclear confusing needs reworking Michael I think Along with what David said a moment ago a motion to I can't repeat your motion, but that motion in lieu of Voting to support the process described in the CRC memo is Is the is the better way to go? I have So many problems with the CRC menu memo that I it's hard to begin to enumerate them But I do want to point out one that is particularly difficult This is in the same microphone. Yes. This is in the same section that David was reading from a moment ago The CRC is understanding the town which paragraph last paragraph on page two Understanding that the town staff is compiling a list of potential revisions, etc including revisions to Reflect the changes in the form of government fine. I have no problem with that Changes in the town priorities since the approval of the master plan Now that may include those specific committee things that we've been talking about but is doesn't changes in the priorities of the town Isn't that a huge area of that requires Considerable discussion who is to determine what the changes in the town priorities have been is there a list of those changes? Is that the town council's view of what the changes are? Is it our view of what the changes are? What does that mean? So the result of the result of my question is that we can't deal with this particular memo as it's written That we have to just go ahead and do our business. I think is Miss Haneke said they were coming here not trying to tell us how to do our job But the first two things that popped in my mind are that the capital projects and the green initiatives that we have taken very strong votes on Those are priorities to me in recent time and they need to be reflected now She doesn't say that that's what comes in my mind But again, I think they were trying to be very clear that they weren't trying to tell us what you know, that's how That's what will be determined as we come through our process But I see capital projects and environmental sustainability as being two of them. Yeah Well the clock counts climate action goals I think have you know that that to my my sense the green initiatives and again That's the town council has done that and they can I would I would again ask They that they submit so that we can streamline the work and move forward What it is that they've done we have that that's great, right? And so then that can be incorporated. I would hold relatively With minimal effort simple. However, I agree, I think that and The the the capital projects are the most important thing in my mind. That's admitted here, which is but but I agree that this is It's or it no it seems to me that There is an element of having it both ways The CRC memo the town council the planning board's job. We don't want to prescribe for you what you're doing. However However, let's create lots of and then and let's create what this memo and its Convolutions and it's let's just start the work and and and present it then and and proceed with I don't think that we need to Vote on this as Rick We've got the idea and we moving forward and let's get to it Well, I think we've moved on about taking a vote what I'm looking for is specifics To give to CRC so they can rewrite this memo so we feel good about it. It is our work. It's our Master plan, but let's look at the big picture here. Our goal is to approve something that Can go to the town council and be adopted? I mean, you know, we have our basic Job under the mass law, but now that we have a charter we have like phase two So that's what this memo is about. It's like you go do your phase one and then you give us an approved plan and We want to be prepared and up to speed and Here's our two cents about what we hope Will come to us so we can adopt it It this is phase two so Maria So, I guess trying to be productive here for feedback I think steps four through eight are literally straight from the charter That's what's a confusing portion But we have to do those steps of like referring back and forth, but that's literally This someone mentioned like the chicken egg thing. Unfortunately the charter was written at a time and there's stuff in the zoning I'm sorry in the general bylaw that Predated so we have this weird back and forth from steps for at the rate So if you ignore that complete apart because we have to do those the stuff before it is literally it sounds to me like The CRC just wants to make sure town council isn't surprised by this final draft at the end And suddenly we're at a scramble. Yeah, I as far as the details of how we communicate that from the CRC town council We're gonna work through that where we've discussed us at zoning subcommittee. We're trying to figure out How do we even attack this? It's such a big yet. We're trying to get a small task So without getting into the weeds Like I think Christy said at best CRC is a conduit. They're just communicating where we are to the town council so that It's not suddenly at the end. It's a mad scramble because they don't approve it and we have to go back to base one So, I mean, I do agree that there is some sort of gray sort of language in that paragraph You mentioned Michael and and I think maybe it is because they didn't want to prescribe things to us But maybe that was too strong of a word. It's saying you know town priorities because that's assuming a lot You know, like when we've agreed on what those are So, I mean, we could comment back that we don't want strong wingers like that like something's been decided already But otherwise if we just look at this as a general outline that we're trying to make sure our town council has kept up to date So they're not just at the end Scrambling and then ignored the convoluted part from steps four through eight because it's literally almost Administrative we have to have public hearings in front of people. We have to refer back and forth So I yeah, I'm curious what other parts are really confusing and maybe we can pick those out and send them back to the sea Yeah, to the CRC as comments about what's wrong with this memo or what's confusing because I see it as a Just a rough outline if they want us to prove it or what are we doing vote to support that sounds kind of vague, too We're just supporting it. We're not like saying this is written in stone We're just saying we support the order eagerness to collaborate and to work together on this What it is. We don't know yet. We know we want to try to Keep both sides informed and Yeah, this was kind of dumped on our lap that we are suddenly updating the master plan But it sounds like it's a necessity. So it is what it is. I Saw Jack's hand. Well, I just wanted to say that I agree with Marie and I think Mike pointed out that Burbage in that particular paragraph is something that we can clearly comment on You know, that's that's a loaded one there and and perhaps they can just spell it out, you know, it includes You know the the things you talk about the green initiative and public projects and then and You know just make it specific I Think I saw Michael and I think since the by State law the master plan is the property of the planning board and by Charter with the plan the town council has to approve the master plan Hmm adopt. Sorry adopt That We can in good faith make the master plan We have been charged to update the master plan and I think simply deciding whereas we just have to go ahead and do that and communicating to the town council via the CRC that we Have a under our undertaking the challenge to update to read update the master plan And we will submit it to the town council when we're finished with it And that is it seems to me is according to the way that the state law has written that that is our responsibility to do that since the state law makes no reference to who should approve it or adopted or Whatever after the The The the planning board is done with it We I think can reasonably go ahead in good faith and do what the council wants us to do Without getting bogged down and all the bureaucracy that the CRC has suggested We get involved in and if the CRC feels or the town the council feels that they need to be Consistently and continually updated about what the planning board is doing Then they're perfectly willing to come to meetings and report to themselves to the council to each other to make comments As as much as they want to but to insert these other layers of bureaucracy Into the process seems totally counterproductive and wasteful of everybody's time and I don't think we should do it Can I just ask what you're actually saying is too intrusive what part Well the fact that we have to go back and forth and then there's there is no back and forth What are you talking about the later numbers? Yes Well, that's in the charter that came exactly from the charter. That's why it's like 45 days and then okay So that's their problem. That's not our problem. Well, it's still our problem because we have to follow the charter We have to follow the charter by producing a master plan Which we will do but we're also a part of the town council like they appoint our members That we're in that process right now Well looking for our seventh member and we're looking to them to Select our seventh member like we are a branch of them. No, we're not a branch of them at all We're there were a separate body the fact that they appoint us does not mean that we're a part of them That's the whole separation of powers thing You can't get into that our work that we approve and and all the bylaws that we send We send to them to approval. I mean they're like our up We were part of the process we do good work and then we send it up to town council Whether it be bylaw changes Roadway issues You know Chris could go on and on we most of our work We have to send to town council to for them to either actually approve it or in this case adopt it So of course we want to have an agreed process where they're gonna So we can update them so that they can feel ready to you know They've also with the six-month thing they're saying they want it done timely and I think what they're saying is in good faith and we're willing to do The work and stay updated as you work on it and not be cold and just have you deliver it to us And then you know, we're willing to get involved earlier to get it done quicker I think that's all they're trying to do and if you look at number three on page three in the middle It says the chairs meaning the planning board chair and the CRC chair may determine that CRC members Should be asked to attend meetings of the planning board or public hearings Or the charter required working sessions. I think it's this is vague speak It's just saying like as the process rolls out if it's determined that there needs to be more communication or less communication Then that will be determined But as you do your good work We just want to be kept up and then we want an opportunity to give you our feedback before you actually approve it. I Saw Maria's hand and then I'll go with you. Yep. Sorry. I wasn't looking down I was can you correct me if I'm wrong our steps for the rate literally just falling steps in the chart It's not like they made up this sort of back-and-forth where we have to have a public hearing and refer You know the port those are literally we have to follow I was in that meeting so I can clarify number four is if you want to say a little made up But five and down is totally process and why four got rewritten a couple times was because of this we have this like Terrible way the charter was written how they can give feedback like they can propose changes when they go to adopt it But we don't want that because we'll have already approved it and then you get in this huge awful cycle So that was the part that was sort of created to go. Okay. Hey, I think that's more what they're Trying to get town council to realize. Okay, the Charter says that and then we've inserted this number four This is where you get the opportunity to give your feedback and comment Right before planning board is going to approve it so that we don't get in a cycle So Actually four and five are made up so That whole thing so I think that my concerns with four and five is sort of an idea of endless process that We submit it to CRC we they have 45 days that might be extended by the town council Then we get some feedback and then the council gets reported from CRC on it recommendations And the council deliberates dissent and talks about and sending feedback like to me I just that looks like months it could be months and months and months because the town council does not speak with one voice And so those are my very specific turns It's that's not in the charter that looks like a process that they'd like to engage in but I was actually thinking like I Always like to fix problems. And so they want the CRC and the town council Want to be updated counselors want to give feedback One one way to solve this would be have a master plan update website And so as different sections are being considered we can just stick it on the website people can comment You know the public can comment town counselors can comment And so they're the update is always available and seen and so they can keep themselves in the loop And so maybe that's maybe that's the easy way to get around three and four I don't really feel at this point at 10 23 at night that I Four and five look really like convoluted and kind of bureaucratic and I can see this I'm going on forever because you know You know anyone on a committee can go on forever and discuss something and I you know Is the town council going to come back with do they have to decide amongst themselves what revisions they want and then Agree on that and that could take months You know just the website that's getting in the weeds of our process and I think because that's not just for town council But that could be totally as we finished chapters We put them up and have a comment board, but if you read number it it says 45 days like this is not like a Complicate it's very simple. It's No, no, but this that's why they're trying to ask us like it shall accomplish this review within 45 days of the referral and then And and the other critical thing and this is what I'm counting on CRC and the town council members to be is this is if it's a complicated issue then it's not going to be tackled in the Update we're going to be finding this already as we go through it. We're going to be like, okay This looks simple up. This is not simple put it in the basket like as soon as it gets into complicated and big rewrites But it's it's done counsels could look at Provisions that aren't being changed and disagree with them They could but that's for them to deal with and they have to get back within 45 days for us We're not getting involved in their chat. That's that's I think the timing question I think four and five are creating problems people But I think I think we all want to work together and collaborate the charter says send your revisions to us Which is what David keeps on saying is where's the content like you know, if you if the town council During this process has a very specific concern. Definitely send it to us. We can do it We can do it in real time not at the end of the process But that's not here eating for us to have our process. We're talking Yeah, but I'm just trying to say is that if you're this is my Christine's I'm just trying to give my I'm trying to give my specific feedback to the CRC that these two paragraphs Seem convoluted they can go on forever and I think they bother a lot of people and your suggestion was to do more Feedback along the road. Okay. We that's a comment we can do Yeah, and I see one on this side too, so I was gonna say Jack and then is it you okay? Yeah, go ahead I'm I'm I'm kind of baffled because when you look at necessary and obvious it seems like almost editorial and I just feel like we're sweating a lot of details here is making necessary and obvious Changes to to this update. I mean to me I could you could almost give this to an editor Technical editor somewhere and they would get 95% of it done just folding things in that probably, you know $10,000 I Don't understand. It's not a rewrite an update of necessary and obvious changes and I guess I You do mention as mentioned three and four could allow a lot of you know Endless loop sort of thing but again go back to necessary and obvious How are you gonna you're gonna, you know talk like that should be a semicolon versus a comma sort of thing You really shouldn't be that difficult. I mean it really shouldn't right necessary and obvious And then David I see Chris yeah, how about if we put off this Decision about whether you want to adopt this plan or not and the next time you meet I'll come back with my You know draft very preliminary list of things that I think need to be changed in the master plan That might give us a sense of what the scope of this is and maybe that would help to answer some of the questions about this And I'm also thinking maybe you don't have to send comments back to CRC and town council This is their document. They're offering it to you to see if you have any comments You don't have to comment. You don't have to comment. You don't have to agree with it. You don't have to vote on it so Why don't we just stop talking about it for tonight and I'll send you At some point my rough list of things that I think very preliminary need to be changed added whatever Not inclusive at all and that will help to Make the conversation a little bit more on target. Yes, okay? And it would be helpful. I have a few recommendations that I've noted to have specifics Because I do think we need to give them feedback Yeah Well, there's there's some question as to whether I mean on the on the on the board here There's some question as to whether we do need to get the feedback I'm as breast strip suggested a minute ago it was or maybe that wasn't the suggestion but an idea that We don't respond to this in any particular way at all that it's their document and they can do what they will with it and That seems to me to be the best way to proceed. So I don't think the question of whether we will in fact Want to respond to this document has been settled. So I don't want you to think that it is accomplished I Guess this chair. I had two people come to us the chair of the CRC and the assistant town manager and They said they wanted our feedback on this. So I'm just trying to Reply back to them on they brought us this memo They explained how it came about and their goals with it And they just want to move forward with it and go from CRC to town council and get town council to approve the process But the first thing the town council is going to say is well What is the planning board think of this and to have no comment just seems Strange Would we have to act as one? No, right? I have a few that I would be willing to send for yes We just send some comments to you, Chris Okay, okay, great whoever wants to great Okay, that's what we'll do and when should we send them to you by Miss Pam can tell you when the CRC is planning to deliver this to town council. I forget the date I want to say it's the 27th of January, but I'm not sure I'm sorry. I totally want you to speak but you do have to come up to the you know how it works The green light is on I Believe I mean I was at several meetings. I didn't write the memo But I was at several meetings where we talked about it the major purpose Was to say that the CRC is a committee of the town council Which has been delegated by the town council to deal with these items Recognizes the supreme authority of the planning board. That was the emphasis however, we do want to adopt it and The difference between proven adopted. So the question was how do you do that? With the acknowledge that the planning board. This is their document So it does get a little bit convoluted And one of the issues that I think she was dealing with was when do we have the public hearings or because there's things in the Charter and you know She knows that Charter so There's a thing that we can't and I don't know why can't have a public hearing until after you have finalized the document however this Memo says we could have some hearings because of the ideas You don't want to just pop it on the town council, but the town council doesn't want to pop it on the on the public So you want a smooth system? The idea was a Minor update of the necessary and obvious not a big redoing of the plan not something that should cause tremendous Difficulty take over all of your time and cost a lot of money And so it does get I do admit I read it for the third time in there And when I came to that word change priorities, I circled it because that is an interesting sentence I think that that I don't think it meant anything big, but it could mean something big So I think that that's something that you should comment on So it was how do you how does the town council adopt something without it going around around forever? She was trying to cut the bureaucracy In a bureaucratic state memo, but to say that once you have You you write it the planning board does it it goes to CRC who has been deputized by the council to look at these things they go over all of it Come up with some suggestions go back to you and then when you have the final document Your final document it goes to town council and they voted up or down They don't vote. Well, I guess we do vote we go to it feedback and recommendation like speaker at that point That's when the town council Says they have issues with things and it comes back to us before we take a final vote Okay, I'm not sure about that. I have to I think it did say at some point the town council just Accepts it or doesn't accept it. That's after we've approved it Yeah, after you've approved it. Yeah, they can't vote town council can't vote until after the planning board has have taken This is interesting feedback and it's made whatever changes they decide to make and where does the public meeting come in? for this there's this paragraph in there that says that we can't have a hearing until after you the planning board have Voted it, but it then said but we could have the town council could have some forums Isn't the point of a public hearing to possibly Make changes in the documents being considered. I would think but I will tell you this is clearly written in terms of what the charter says The Charter has bad writing in it, but they didn't realize this until they started to look into this So this isn't how they want it. No, this is the way it's written. That's it. Just David I'd like to propose in Consistent with my understanding what Chris rest or upside that we move on from this matter That we bet that there has been a lot of discussion here that we're including some feedback for the CRC memo And that there's other business that we have to address tonight And that we move on Let's move on and we'll get you comments by Friday. No, and thank you miss Pam Yeah, luckily hope there's not too much more we have to deal with here. So if we move to Zoning subcommittee item 7a I'm pleased to announce that we took elections at Zoning subcommittee and Maria has been voted as the chair and Janet is the vice chair So I am turning to Maria to give a report. This will be short and sweet We already discussed most of it because we spent most of the time discussing what we were just discussing Although one person did show up from backyard ad use Literally his website is backyard ad use calm and he has these great units that can go in backyards as accessory Detached dwellings and they're like $200 a square foot unless it's you should look into it And I'm gonna keep communicating with him and learn from him on lessons learned after you just built up built a few of them Between five and seven hundred square feet. So they're great infill sort of housing opportunities But otherwise, yeah, all we do is do what exactly what we're Sounds like fun So could I just add a little piece I So we just did we did do all that and I and then I Really want to the zoning subcommittee. We've been doing hard work in previous zoning cove committees and planning boards have didn't work on Zoning amendments that we think are important and I would love And I was very disturbed after that meeting that we're not going to continue working on it and the council is not going to look at Zoning it looks like it could be a year and so it'll be almost two or three years before we've had any zoning changes And I don't understand the reason for that And so I just want to highlight that as an issue and I'd like to talk about it more the zoning subcommittee But I really feel like there's things that we think are important and we could just move them up to the town council and they could sit there and We can continue the work that we do and work with mr. Mora and things like that, but I just didn't want To just have all that work sidelined and we all sit there stagnantly and that's why I'm suggesting so that that was a piece that I really Was just to put it in people's heads, but not to discuss, right? I do like Janet's idea about Not encumbering that the zoning subcommittee with with the master plan and having they you know like ad hoc groups Of us, you know attacking different chapters, but again, you know, this is You have been saying it Chris is going to do most of the heavy lifting so Then you know, we I guess we want to help we want to help and I guess, you know, would you just have to get some ed our initial comments to you? So that's you know the first step. I think we promised that to you anyway So now you've decided you want to move ahead with it So now I'm gonna start moving ahead with my work and I'll bring it to you as I have it ready And we can talk about this again on the January 29th. All right To things now if if if Chris is going to start bringing us things Is the us the zoning subcommittee or is the us the planning board or is the us a new committee that we're going to Create to deal with this kind with this particular issue as was suggested a minute ago but if Initially, I could bring it to you all of you and then when you feel Overburdened by it and you want to direct it to a subcommittee you can create the subcommittee at that time But you don't have to do it right now sounds good And you had a second thing Sorry, I also wanted to support Janet's suggestion that we go right ahead with certain zoning bylaw amendments that we find are important Whether the council takes them up or not is their problem and not ours if we think there's a zoning issue that needs to be addressed like affordable housing or parking or whatever whatever Issue we think we want to address That is addressed through a zoning change zoning bylaw change I think the zoning subcommittee should bring it forward to us And we should act on it and forward it to the council and they can do what they wish with it Okay So Chris item 7 old business is there any old business? I don't think so I Have an old business update Really quickly those yellow balliards in the parking lot of the Bank of America Disappeared and it was like completely sealed over it was very it was it was exciting as they should I just looked at I was like they're gone. So so our work has resulted in something Until it comes back again Yeah New business item 8 number a Chris that that's the chapter 61 a withdrawal request property of the I don't even know how you say that Salah so this topic is being discussed internally in town hall and We plan to bring it back to you on January 29th I Think that's always an option for the town to consider so That's a town council decision it's presented to the planning board. What's the reason for that? I mean it's presented to both the planning board and the conservation Commission and the planning board can make a Recommendation to town council as to whether you think the property is worth The town going after trying to purchase it or not and you base that on various criteria So I can send actually I should have sent this with the packet, which I didn't think about I will send you more information on chapter 61 and what the options are and why you might consider certain properties to be worthwhile to Acquire for the town and then we'll have a better discussion about this on the 29th Could we have information about the farmland in the quality of soils and all that kind of stuff? Is it Some some information about this if we're gonna make a recommendation. I'd like to know more about the farm itself. I Can ask for that. I can't have the What should I say I can't order to have the soils tested But if there's material available, I will obtain it for you Jack Confession here. I was involved for some of the solves a due diligence mostly in Hadley though but Yeah, so the property has been reviewed and cleaned up There was some salt. There's some solid waste issues there, but that was that was about it so That's just personal knowledge That's different from whether the soils are suitable for farming, so that's a different question, right? You guys good for now, and then I'll come back. Okay, and no other questions. Okay So we can move to item B timing of receipt of permit application materials. Do you want to do that tonight, Janet? No Okay, so we'll move that to No, I had proposed I'd like to propose that for consideration specifically that that the planning board Require materials That are scheduled for a meeting to be submitted prior to the publication of its agenda So that's prior to Friday The Friday before the Wednesday before meeting and that any materials submitted after that relating to that We can we can table or continue Meeting at our discretion. I'd like that concrete proposal for our consideration whenever we get to it But do they get sent to us and then we decide our well for example no for example today with the main street Have the modification to the site plan review that we approved in August We received the development application report, which is significant. We received that yesterday By email, I did not have time between yesterday and tonight to read that it's material And so they can present the applicant can present what they want to but we we should not be pressured We should You know to to render a decision When there has been material that has not been included in our packet and that I think that we should Responsibly set a deadline and notify the public notify potential applicants I think you know if this wants a hearing a schedule materials submitted after such-and-such a date prior to that hearing You know, they may or may not be considered And will continue the year. Are you talking about the development application report? That was that was the that's what came because that's an internal So we have to be clear whether we're just talking about submitted materials from the applicant or Stuff that's coming from in-house from asbestos. So I have to apologize that that came so late I've been very very busy lately, and I just didn't have time to do it But I understand your point and at any time I feel Which should I say? Obligated to send you materials as they become available. You can make a decision that we receive this document too late I haven't had time to read it. I can't vote on this tonight That's a perfectly legitimate thing to say at the public hearing and I I don't have any problem with that But I feel like if I've completed a report and it pertains to something that you're going to be Talking about that night. I have an obligation to send it to you and again You have perfect right to say no, I haven't had time to read it. So I guess That's my that's my response and so perhaps so the application report, you know, I'm thinking of That 60 page memo we received from bacon Wilson the day before or the day of One of the Amherst Hill hearings That happens almost every meaning whether they're who produces whether it's internal or external I don't honestly know all of that but but but I Think that with a standing rule that materials not submitted in the timely fashion Shouldn't should not pressure the planning board and I feel like that that that's the current state I I Don't want to be the gatekeeper I don't want to be the person who says this thing came in too late I am not going to give it to the planning board because it came in on Friday instead of Thursday Because I think that's your decision to make this thing came in too late. We can't consider it tonight Because there may be something that I don't know that you think is really important that you need to have for that meeting And I don't want to be the person making that decision It also puts you in a weird place like I think of emails that shoot in that last day Like we hate getting them, but you read them and you know and then she like then we don't know I don't know. I hate feeling Rushed but yet I still want to have the information and then make the choice whether or not I like There is the point always say I didn't have time to read this I mean we can even take time out or it just doesn't go like I knew this stuff that came in I knew this wasn't really going to move tonight like in a vote So I knew everybody would still have time to read it before we actually have to vote But you have a good point about like application stuff like this certain stuff clients Like when we ask like tonight we said we need stuff from them, right? Well, and we always say okay, and now we're pushing you to February 5th Well, it should be clear that actually that stuff shouldn't be coming to us on the 5th There should be a rule and it's very clear that we expected to be there by you know Friday at 5 o'clock or something So exact so I'm a little David I know you jumped in and we're doing it Janet had already come and told me that she had an actual motion she wanted to do So I'm gonna let her do her motion to and then maybe we won't take action on maybe we will but I think we need to Think about this and and Chris to maybe you can think of where the line can be drawn Go ahead. So David you make you talked about this a month ago I get this is the point and so I actually did a motion and I Because I was thinking about this problem in terms of the timing and I was my motion as I moved that the planning board Add a rule to its regulations that applicants for permits must submit all Materials nine days before the schedule hearing date if the materials are submitted later The applicants will be required or urged to agree to continue their hearing to the next available date So this is like the Monday And it's not it's not a week earlier. It's nine. It's the Monday So that would give the planning department two or three days to pull your packet together to write your report It doesn't say that you know the fire chiefs report can't come in at the last minute, but You know, it's there's so many reasons. You know people are coming to us for permits. They want them They should get their applications together They should get them in in time in a way that the planning department can get it in a regular way They can conduct their lives and other priorities I think you know lawyers are used to these kind of deadlines all the time And I think we need to push it back and I would you know If the app if we got our packets sent out on Wednesday, you know I could you know either delivered or we'd have like a week to look at stuff And we wouldn't have this barrage of emails coming in and information because I can't think about it And digest stuff and put it all together without time And I think that maybe we could try that for six months and see if we can get better practice in the community and for ourselves And less chaos. I also think we'll spend less time at hearings and have fewer hearings if we have more materials Earlier and more complete applications because we always ask for more stuff But we don't have to get it, you know weeks and weeks, you know at the last minute I'll second that motion Just you send me that right in writing Me what's the Conservation Commission? I know that they they have more Strict Smittle got it and do you anybody know what those are? No, but I can find out I Would think we'd want to parallel that I Agree and I just I think Janet said nine days I just wanted to ask Chris is how do you think that's too far out would that even work? So if we meet on Wednesdays, it's like a week and a half before I Think it is too far out, and I think it's very The whole process is very fluid and very flexible and Sometimes when someone really wants to get something done quickly like mr. Roblesky tonight He absolutely begged to be able to have his public hearing on January 15th. That was very important to him I don't know what his reasons for that were but we pushed to have the hearing on January 15th He didn't submit his material until December 20th So, you know that was only like three weeks that we had and it was Christmas time and New Year's in in between So we didn't have time to Examine the application talk to mr. Mora Think carefully about whether the special permit was needed or not There's a lot of communication that goes on, you know, ideally we have at least a month between the time of submission and the time of The planning board public hearing but even so we have a long list of other things that we're working on They have nothing to do with the planning board That we have to fit the planning board in with all these other things so we try to do things as much As quickly as we can and fit it into whatever else we're doing you're prioritizing many layers Yes, you could say there so having a strict rule of having everything submitted nine days in advance that No, but it sounds like they submit up most of their information even further back than nine days But the clogs sometimes happens in the actual planning department. Yes, that's correct Because they have to analyze it run it by other people and before it even gets to us They're already finding things that need to be done more information Fixing things on forms and then Chris starts writing reports for it to go to us So in this case if we had said You know planning department you have to have your report in nine days in advance that would be When last Monday so this public hearing could have occurred it's not first wouldn't have had your Analysis by the planning department in front of you when you Heard the material now in the end it turned out you're going to continue so you'll have plenty of time to read it, but It's just kind of the way we operate is not Maybe it should be rigidly according to a clock and a time schedule and we can try that But I'm thinking it's really going to be hard to make it work So it wasn't for the planning department nine days before it was the applicants to get all their materials in nine days before the hearing I'm trying to clear space for you guys too. Does that work? We could try that but sometimes we find that through our analysis. Oh, they didn't submit their management plan So we bring them up and say hey didn't submit your management plan get it in by the time We send the packets out or whatever and they do that and so you have the management plan when you have your public hearing So it helps to streamline things. So I'm willing to try this But I think it's going to be challenging to make it work Michael these are these are big deal developers mostly Our art shouldn't they be responsible for knowing what the rules are that they need to get their their plan in before a certain time I you know, I understand that Part of your job is to make it possible for these things to happen on the other hand The developer needs to take a certain amount of responsibility For following the timelines that are established the procedures that are established as long as they're clearly established And it seems to me that this is an opportunity to clearly establish a timeline Which any reasonable developer ought to be able to follow Here she is paying attention Let me ask this. Are you Proposing to put this in your rules and regs, or are you just proposing to vote for it tonight and try to make it work? I Was I was proposing it as a change the rules and regs, but I think that I don't think we're ready to vote on it tonight I think we want to think about it more. I'd love to think about it when I'm have more some sleep I'm glad you said that because I was gonna say I'm not comfortable with voting on this right now because my main concern is Yeah, our own comfortableness and getting the information in a timely and adequate manner But I don't want to put a burden on miss bestrip. She's got enough on her plate right now I think that's why we're here at 11 o'clock at night and What I'm hearing is they submit their information and then it's it's it's in there And you're grinding it out as fast as you can balancing many things and coming back to the developers and saying oh And we need this and we need this you need to change this. I just talked to Rob more You need this and it's just gonna be a burden on her because she's gonna be panicked my god I have to ask them for more stuff and I'm past the nine days and then She's just gonna be stressed that she's failing us So that's why you rescheduled the hearings to be to you to say hey We didn't get this till yesterday or we just got this at the public hearing. We can't deal with this now We haven't had a time to think about it So that's what I would prefer is that the planning board said clearly I Need this in more in advance so I can read it over the weekend or whatever it is you have And not have it not have us be the gatekeepers because there are times when things absolutely need to get to you immediately My conversation with Joel Bard this afternoon, you know, that was that was a new thing So there's always stuff coming in at the last minute So how about we think about it, but especially you Chris and your quiet moments, we're looking for things that help you I think that's where this is coming from with David and Janet like yeah We're trying to help ourselves, but we want to help you and if you can come up with something That would streamline this to make it better for you and and Pam and the rest of your department then would love to hear it Does that sound okay for tonight everybody? Okay Yeah, yeah, Jack I have to go back to the salsa. I did not I did not look at that property. It's on the wrong side one six things I just want to say I know nothing. Oh, so we can dirty No, all right. Thank you. Good clarification. It could be a Super fun sight Good, okay, clarify. Yep. Okay, great. Thank you. And we I think handled item 8 number C Chris, I think we're all set with the schedule for now. Okay, good Topics non-anticipators or any other new business? Okay, great Number nine form a and our subdivision applications. Yes, we do have a form. I don't think it's complicated And I think good sort of know all about it already and if I'm lucky Pam has created a nice little map here, so pass around or Pass around the map. I will explain it and Pam will take around the big map Janet So this is the property that you may have read about in the newspaper It's on the corner of University Drive and one and route nine. It's right opposite the Chinese restaurant and it is it had been formerly talked about for Walgreens anyway Barry Roberts is interested in creating a mixed use building on that corner and There are I think there are three properties of four properties there So he wants to combine for he wants to combine three of the properties to one property Currently, there's a brick ranch style house on that property And so it was used as a you know single-family house And now he has a proposal to do something else with the property But this and our plan that you're looking at tonight is the proposal to combine the three properties that are in the PRP zoning district This project is coming before the zoning Board of Appeals on January 23rd Mixed use building. I think there are 72 Dwelling units and an office for I understand it's going to be a doctor's office on the ground floor So you said three I see three and a chunk of the fourth Maybe a little piece of the fourth that's yes like this this triangle the end of the little Wedge yeah, so it's three lots and like I'm saying a piece of the fourth. That's a yeah so it impacts all four and The fourth piece shrinks Yeah, and it's the dead end. Oh, there must be an easement through it too. Is there an easement through the fourth lot? Just wondering That's why they're probably not using it Yeah Right I Was just wondering because if there was an easement that's one of the reasons why they may not be utilizing that lot because There's an easement You know like yeah, like it's a different Okay, so this becomes PRP then what happens with this little Well, that's that's the little triangle piece that's part of that so the line just cuts it's a lot in two zones Okay, great Anyone have any other questions? So yes, you do I think that this is another project that is looking for a waiver of the parking requirement And there's gonna get you know like tons of small apartments, you know fitting You know, so I just I think this issue is gonna keep coming up as the waivers are granted That pushes the need for those which will help us by law change give us examples of how these other buildings are working Like University Well, so far University. I've been checking it's working So but that will build our our information Okay, so do they have to vote or do you say that you're authorizing miss grey mullin to sign this a in our plan? Okay, great Zba applications is that you Pam? I don't think we have told you about There's a request for a special permit for the use of a recreational marijuana retailer It's going to be located at 328 college Street and The name of them is RC retail Amherst LLC So that's gonna go in front of the zoning board February 13th, it's Pretty far down. It's my spirit house. It's just across the driveway from spirit house in that long strip mall It's on the end I think isn't it of the strip mall Number 11 SPP SPR sub applications Okay, so section 12 is the committees. Does anyone have anything vital they need to report? Oh I'm sorry The CRC has started its deliberations for this this round the largest of which is a request for Minute and a half dollars from the library for historic for preservation of the historic records It contains archive. Do you mean cpa? Do you mean cpa? Yeah, you say I think you said see Yes, yes, yes speaking and vegetables see back. Yeah So that's that's one thing the other thing that's of interest to us on the plan on the planning board is the notion that the rather than Rather than the CPAC allocating monies specifically for individual housing for affordable housing projects that they become that becomes a An allocation directly to the housing trust so that therefore that organization can respond more quickly to Individual needs as they as they might come up in between rounds of CPAC Evaluations We haven't decided on that. I'm not sure whether that's a good idea or not And if anybody has any particular interest in that issue, I'd be glad to hear it so that I can Convey that information. There's it seems to me. There's reasonable arguments on both sides of that issue And I don't want to go through them now because it's 11 o'clock But if anybody wants to know more about that, let me know may I go back to the ZBA for a minute? Sure, we know we're we're reasonably sure that Valley CDC is going to submit their comprehensive permit proposal Actually back up they're going to submit a letter to the state for a letter of eligibility on the What do they call it enhanced SRO or supportive housing project on Northampton Road? We think that's going to happen before the end of January So that means they'll be coming to the zoning Board of Appeals sometime in the spring But I wanted to bring you up to date on that 1.5 Yeah, it's presumably an amount that would be bonded over that over a ten or maybe five or ten-year period It's 1.5 for what for for archival it go it goes to the basic building fund, but it's earmarked for specifically for creation of an archival room and reasonable Equipment for that room. It's based on a percentage of the total cost. They decided that I think it was 10.28% of the building new building proposal was devoted to the archives and that Money is 10.2% of the total cost of the of the town's contribution to the building. Does that make sense? Okay, that's great They need it badly if you've ever been up there. I'm up there a lot and it's Not good All right, so that's wonderful Any other okay, see none report of chair non report of staff None we've reported enough adjournment. Do I hear a motion and we are ending at 1107 is that really a record? I'm like, how is this possible? Thank you Amherst media if you're alive back there