 Why did you and Tony Brown and Kalin Lasky decide to pursue your case further? Why did you appeal? Well, we did what are the normal appeals that we've said, which is just the appeal court, which is in the Strand And that was okay. They've reduced the sentences In my case from three years down to six months. Okay, which meant you'd only set three months in fact because you'd say assuming that you Behaved, you know, we don't we serve Half your sentence, so that would be three months. I've already served six or seven weeks in the first prison So it was only a few weeks to go But we appealed to the House of Lords initially Because as I said right from the beginning, we never felt we'd done anything wrong Nothing wrong at all So I Didn't want them to win. I mean in the earliest days. I thought about suicide things like this when I was in the deepest depressions but two things kept me going about that one was the partner and I realized that would upset him a Lot and the other was to me that was giving in, you know That would they would have won and what made what would have made that worse is they wouldn't have given a toss anyway even if I had Come in suicide. They just yeah, they are another bloody clear strikes. No So that was what determined us to keep going the primary one being that we didn't feel guilty of anything Right, and we wanted to pursue it as far as we could to get our convictions overturned so we appealed to the House of Lords which was the highest court in this land at that time and That hearing was held about a year after we got the bail prison and Then the judge we had to wait on there that was tending We had to go to a court, which in my case was the old baby But there are no judges present. You're just surrendering while the process was going on So because they are officially a court the House of Lords you then still have to surrender to them Okay, eventually still have to go into London and sit in a cell. Oh, I see. Well, they deliver a during the day And then you could come out at the end of the day So they did all that they did their thing and we lost by three votes to two And the interesting point there is the three that voted against us And said this sort of thing has no place in unquotes civilized society Rance quote were the oldest three. I think you can look up their ages The two that were prepared to Accept her appeal were both in the 50s So already even there with that small age difference. You could see a difference in outlook. Yeah So but we lost but then That's when Tony and I Calling now Colin had served his whole sentence initially. He didn't ask for any bail Tony and I still had some sentence to serve. Yeah, so we both agreed. We'll serve it down Manager because we said what we don't want to do is to go to European court And if we lose there and then have to go back to prison So we said we haven't got very much left We'll do a prison. This was when we went to the second print. Did I say Brixton for the first one? I did my mistake. It was Wandsworth was the first one. That was the appalling awful one. We went to Brixton after the house of look after the house of laws thing To serve the remainder of our sentences, so Brixton's actually not too bad. How much more time did you have to serve? Well, that was the remainder of sentence which because the appeal it was used to amounted to another Four months okay three or four months something like that time off from the first prison Which was about five six weeks worth plus time off for the time you're setting the cells to our various hearings and so on Yes, so we both decided that we didn't want Return to prison hanging over the final result. So I said, right We'll go back to prison and serve off the rest. It actually it wasn't too bad at all The whole wind was quite pleasant. The whole atmosphere is far better than Wandsworth Which was the first place which was an old-fashioned victory prison Wow, so we appealed to the European court. We then you can't appeal directly You have to appeal for you have to ask for Right to appeal to the European court. So leave to appeal So we applied for that by that time we've got Liberty on board mainly due to one of their officers a really splendid lady who Sort of championed our case with them They weren't terribly keen because they thought our case was a bit of a bad publicity even for liberty because of the nature of his crimes and So they were on board we then had quite a bit of support From some lesbian groups there's been ladies There was some SMR type ladies and gents as well. That's when the SM world. That's when they started doing all the marches and Parades and things and trying raise interest So we've got a lot of support coming along then So we decided we would appeal to Leave to appeal and they said yes To whom do you take this to the court in Europe? You then go to the Brussels the European court in Brussels and apply leave to be heard by them I see I see it's the I Think our grounds were right to a private life. Okay, things like that I can't remember the detail, but it's all out there And I couldn't go because at that time my mother wasn't so well So I stayed in England doing a couple of radio interviews Generally keeping our mother And they all flew off and came back And we won the lead to appeal so that maybe it would be heard by the European Court Which is if 15 judges right? Other houses, so I only see was with 15 defendants of religion as well But even then we weren't that confident because our chief Some sort of barrister Was Lord Lester who's a liberal peer and was well known for And almost from the beginning it was to it's all don't you don't really stay much of a chance England or the UK have lost quite a few appeals in Europe And they're sort of do or win As though it's a sort of you know tip for tatter So he doubted that we would have a lot of luck And When we finally got to the court it was just Tony and I because by that time unfortunately Colin the died That's a big shock Tony and I did is a victory for the pink paper. I think it was maybe possibly gay times And so it's just two of us by talking actually got to Europe. I see And Lord Lester's presentation on our behalf was we all agree pretty abysmal to be honest It's like he was defeated from the word go and It came as no surprise when the final ruling came that we lost 15 nil, but otherwise a close one thing Why do you feel his his work was abysmal? And he didn't make any other points and barristers were trying to get into make You see he takes precedence because he was the main presenter then The court also didn't like the fact that we had some illegal types with us because they went there's too many But just two defendants For each but a lot of this was people like the solicitors coming along for a journey. Oh Wow, that was sort of frowned upon because this is all that European court expenses So they weren't keen on that Now his presentation we didn't feel was very good Whether it's because he realized it was that we wouldn't stand a chance by this time you've got to remember that European court included countries like Turkey and senior sort of It's like Eastern European that do not have great human rights records in their own Accounts and they're not really likely that sympathetic Turkey was Certainly That sort of feeling So not great keeping us. We weren't surprised when he was 15. Yeah, but as I said earlier It didn't achieve what the police had hoped Which was to stamp us out of existence all we do is get people's eagles up In the gay world SM world and the leather world And You know we've got support from all over the world What exactly did it entail being at this European Court of Human Yeah, I didn't actually from that point of view Tony and I didn't tell very much. We didn't speak a single word I think we might just acknowledge that We were allowed a written presentation to the court each Which we did but that was in advance We didn't read them out for ourselves So whether I actually read them or not as anybody's guess is no way in having anything like that So it was pretty much a closed doors that really Few arguments were presented. We didn't last anywhere near as long as it was over in half a day. Oh Very quickly. It was a quick thing. Oh, yes, it wasn't days and days It was like one day's worth of here's your presentations And Then back the following day to wind up I believe and then that was it We'll let you know How long did it take before you had word Which for anything leader is actually I suppose fairly quick Yeah How did the other defendants feel about you taking this further Exactly, I think basically I just wanted to put it behind and forget about it They also didn't feel quite the same sense of injustice about you But we three did which is why the rest of them all booked out You don't forget only five of us went to call the people so it's only us and two others And they dropped out of the following stage So if that one of them couldn't appeal to you people any way to see the European citizen Swiss His Interesting though, even with Colin being deceased you were able to bring him his case along with you. I find that Obviously there was nothing admissible Because he's not there to admit it. So he couldn't have he couldn't write a statement Was mentioned in passing in the submissions by Tony and myself and Perhaps his name cropping up occasionally during the other one. Oh, interestingly enough the gay women and so on they had also Watched But there one was turned down So they said no we're not here because they'd said it their private life is we need to fear But they were turned down But it probably worked as a technique because it acts as a sort of distraction from that case So Looks like we've done something but what happened to Colin if we need to interject As far as I know Colin got a heart attack. Oh, it's died fairly something. I mean, we were quite shocked to hear the news Yeah, of course, and we went off to Wales for his funeral But we didn't go back for reception. We were invited by the family back, which we thought was quite nice But it was only a few of us about three or four of us, I think But We felt it not really our place to go to his family reception. I don't think we'd have been overly welcome That was a nice gesture in their part for which we thank them when that was over The whole process To what, ten years? Isn't that right? And that ten year period was an absolutely tumultuous time For you for the others. It was stressful. I mean, you know, it's not ten years of total misery. I mean, you had sort of happy days And we might have the old holiday things, but I'll give you an example of holidays Would book me perhaps a surprise somewhere abroad. We used to like to go to places like that And as soon as the aircraft wheels left the runway at Luton or wherever, I felt on holiday And it wasn't the real world anymore And I was fairly happy throughout the holiday Pretty much until the wheels touched down again and then it sort of sunk all over me again So it was a sense of detachment being on holiday. I could cope with that But even then I spent a lot of time sleeping But that was because of all the drugs and things from the medications. Sure Now I recall you saying earlier that at some point they took your passport in front of you So clearly that was it was that return that was after the court of appeal Oh, okay. Yes, we got that in the strength. We got it back after that Prior to that, I'd had to report a couple of times a week to the police station But I did it regularly, so they stopped that after a short while as well Sometimes you played by all their rules and regulations But you said at some point some of your things never were returned to you No, no. I mean, I have the forms such that I could apply for them even now But what's the point? Essentially I don't want to get involved with the police again So there's no point in going back to the police saying, you know, oh, I'd like some pictures of me in 20s A they probably haven't still got them anymore and B it just gets the police interested in me again That's a good point and I'd rather stay away from them. So I can remember what most of the pictures I lost, not just of me but of other people and things I could remember all of those because it's even true I'm quite good at having images But you're you're you're taking this All the way to the the highest court in Europe. Yeah It just to me and I should think to possible viewers of this video simply Is is mind bogglingly? Amazing because the fortitude the very surprise what a sense of injustice could do Yeah for you. I mean, it's like families that pursue things for years over the death of a child or You know a parent or something and they feel if people feel there's some sort of injustice with regards to Perhaps a loved one that's died or a bit murdered or whatever It's surprising how much ordinary folk can do when they feel like that. I mean there was that Manchester No, not Manchester Cheshire bombing. I think it was or something where some lad was killed and his father Wrote books about it and met the bombers years later And people said we don't know how you can do it But I can see how he can do it because he had a total sense of injustice and he should never have lost his boy in these circumstances That's what drove him on. You know the injustice can make you do all sorts of things It's only when you sit back in retrospect. I mean, I couldn't do it now I don't think I've gone to your left all my get up and go has got I'm gone Which is why I don't do marches or prides or anything anymore now. I just want to cry life Now, but it was important to me at the time It was the right thing to do I'd like to feel that and for what people said they tend to agree. I mean when we were in, um Brixton We've got about 60 percent of the daily meals Letters and things they mean to us too Tony and I Cards letters from people all over the world offering help you know offering support and So and it did make a difference, you know the big difference to have Possibly these postcards and you know read the letters from people that we've never met Saying How did your partnership survive this this had to be Stressful amazing thing in the world To put upon a partner um Once we got once we got past the original Anger With me and then the anger with the system Wiley He himself said that he wouldn't have pursued it as far as I did. He could understand why I did And then he came to admire it And so on and and often we use sort of support And we did keep going. I mean we had lots of ups and downs But I don't think it was seriously Me being splitting up at any time to be honest. That's amazing because We're totally we're totally committed to each other and We're totally loyal. We're not totally faithful, but we are totally loyal And um, neither of us would want to live with anybody else to be honest um But that's what binds us together and we are still here together and it's amazing now as we get older of course age We look after each other with health problems now This we're there to support each other for health problems. So that's what we do now How do you think future generations of smers are going to benefit from your legacy? Hopefully and when you say my legacy, I'd like actually to say the legacy of myself Tony and Colin really because it's that's fair and To me, it's just as important. They're recognized in this as well because it's the three of us will work together to achieve What we achieve which in the end was little in terms of the law but quite a lot we feel in terms of attitude and also in terms of People not being prosecuted again because as I said, there's been no further prosecutions on these lines The world is flooded pretty much with internet pornography of one form or another I don't even like the term pornography really because to me naked people is what people are It's just like clothes people only without clothes and so they want to screw or do anything else It's what people do. I mean how do we think the bloody world population got here? And the idea that somehow this could corrupt people I find amazing I think violence corrupts more than sex corrupts I've never heard of a well very few gang mentalities with regards to sex and so I suppose that's not really true with gang rapes and things these days but I'd like to feel that we've made life a little more comfortable for people in the SM world not just gay sms, but straight ms is all people that are interested in what you'd like to turn keke sex Why not? It's it's fun Yeah, if you've got half a brain you have Safety words and things that you can use phrases if someone doesn't want to go too far with something If you're a psychopath you're going to be a psychopath whether you've got access to this sort of stuff or not As far as I know there are no sort of Gay cannibal groups for instance, but nevertheless you still have cannibals out there so it can't be much to do with the filming It's got to do with the state of mind. So I think I suppose when they told me I would I'm in my questioning sessions by the police You know, I was if you like spreading this sort of stuff and making people do it And that is people don't like this sort of stuff. I said, well, I don't like cricket, but I don't stop people watching it They went unboxing came up quite a lot of course during the course of the trial because of the harm it does We point you out Died quite regularly for boxing over the years Oh, they also included things like What they called horseplay within the armed forces Quite a few of which amounted to a fair degree of torture But that was all jolly manly stuff. So it was all right. Yeah, you see and there was a there was a marriage couple Where the bloke branded these initials and his wife's bum And that was all right as well because she consented apparently that was just after our case But as we said if that would be if it turned out to be a bloke branding Another bloke even after that case they'd have been done again. So there is still some do I've come but I think we've helped to Sway the balance slightly and these days I don't think it's too bad being gay, but every gay Man and woman struggles with their own coming out into the world and telling their friends in the world that's never going to change because um Because of the way we are it's just you know, you can't be in And hear redditary gay person you have to start from a base hero every time Virtually if you're lucky you will have understanding parents and friends and it will be a smooth transition when we were in Britsden one of the people there was a chap who had been involved in the Rape and murder of a 14 year old rent boy that they picked up Hmm and this Bloke in the prison Was weird. I mean We're perfectly 100% normal compared. There was something about him that was just odd. Tony saw where I could see it You know, it's within some people that there are going to be people We don't function the way the rest of the people do but that doesn't invalidate what we do because we do it Hopefully sensibly and sanely. Yes Even I've been officially declared Um, what was it the phrase I forgot it was on the t-shirt. Um No Tell me what got you through prison you you mentioned there were three things in particular that got you through that ordeal Yes, I mean, um or It was really the thought that Was there me partner was there He visited Almost as often as was possible, which is about once a fortnight something like that on a couple of occasions. He bought other friends with him um One of whom was um one of my ex Music group chaps the bloke I used to work with and he said that he never realized that people lived totally different worlds to his He'd all because he had a functional loving family And then he came across all these people in the prison waiting rooms and all that so that was a shock to him So knowing that was coming was always important um and He said it's a humor, which is somewhat of a conic at times and somewhat just dead embarrassing um kept me going and for thinking about when I leave um Looking forward to driving me car again because I used to love driving Not so much these days, but certainly then I've had sports cars and things, but it was one other thing um Was the library the prison library because I used to look in that to see if there's anything worth reading most of which was not But there was an interesting book about um hill walking in the lake district and so on and uh I was reading through that and I came across a quote Or a sentence that was actually to do with if you're on a walk And the weather turns bad things like that, but I'll just show you What it is and we have this sort notebook prison notebook I kept and uh the quote I wrote down which Really I Treated as my mantra for while I was there Nothing acts as a better incentive than the knowledge that there is no alternative So that really keeps you know no matter what was going to happen to me there I knew that was no alternative So you just have to keep going You know the words don't give don't let the bastards grind you down Quite difficult when you know, you think someone might Be going to attack you. I mean it was a bit unsafe here and there only a couple of times that I Get into a slight spat with one or two people um On the second occasion Um me cellmate that I didn't know this because I'm not of a bit criminal, but apparently you look up You look after your cellmate You know this sort of buddies buddy style relationship No matter what they've done or nobody talks about their convictions either Certainly not out on the landings and the most the general populace Although these days with newspapers and things I say these days sorry those days With newspapers and what have you they pretty much knew what people were in for I mean you can hardly have a newspaper saying 15 gay men convicted and said to prison in the next day Or the same day half a dozen people don't know I mean all one or two cartoons and things in the press, but so that kept me going that Because there is an alternative when you're in prison, you know You've got to go through it one way or the other and that kept me going Pretty much of that along with knowing my partner was there for me When we released and looking forward to hurt and around and me come again. So that was that Very important part. Some people Have asked me to bring up the next topic, which is Do you feel that Perhaps you and maybe posthumously some of the other people should receive some sort of compensation for all the hell you've been through We didn't go into any of the pills for money We did it because of the sense of injustice about the whole prosecution Yeah I can't help feeling that these days a lot of if you're I've fallen malicious complaints against people with all these Historic charges that get bought about all sorts of topics now assaults and sexual and all the rest of it I just feel a bit uncomfortable with it that quite a few of them are in it for the money that they hope they might get The only time that money really got mentioned Was when we were heading for the european court. This is the full hearing not the Leave to appeal hearing. Yes when we're heading for the full court if we won the case Then it was thought we should be due some compensation. Oh, yeah, excuse me, however Lord Lester the I don't know. I'm not sure what level you are suppose. He's a barrister. Maybe he was higher up in a barrister He Advised against it. He said generally speaking even if you win the european court and not keen on you claiming compensation And this was quite hard to take from the bloke that only a few weeks earlier Had told us that he would only take ten grand For doing a case instead of the usual Obviously much higher fees and it just seemed a bit sick and a bit ironic. I thought so that's the only time that I'd That either of us had thought about money as being involved was if we'd won Would we be due some but there's no point in pursuing it You can't actually pursue for any claims if you've lost Because what's to be lost? I mean another example of where things are not designed to help you if you're Rated or completely away with just after the raid I rang the It was a burglary helpline Well, and all they were quite nice and they said and when we get burgled and I give them the date And this that and the other and then they said and do you know who was burglary me? And I said yes, it was the police They took all my stuff away. Oh, well, I'm not really sure What to do but no, I don't think we could do anything for you know, it's not really how it works And I said well, I know that's what I felt like I said the burglars were in the house talking to me and taking the stuff away So it's probably more traumatic than if well, I had had a burglary Someone after that we got burgled and that was less traumatic than at least raid and taking stuff away Incredible the only fight we had there was with the insurance company. You didn't want to pay out So that that was all right. I just reported up the line to his up line mentioned. I've got satisfaction. Yeah So that that no, there's there's no point That's sort of in the heart it'd be nice if the spanner trust was to offer some sort of little Something but what's the point? I mean we're not actually poor Um, we don't I mean it's like this new thing about paying for your tv license for pensioners We could afford that it was just nice not to have to So, you know from that point of view we live within our means They're fairly modest these days. So it wouldn't make a lot of difference unless it was a few million and I think now Chances of that are millions to one against So no money not money was not a motivation really at any point When it was all over, yes How did you take the next steps in your life? How did you move on? Well, it was a bit difficult when it was all over um We poor old partner he thought like as soon as I'd come home from the final block of imprisonment and then We lost in Europe, which was about That's part of a year later. I think To him that was the end But it didn't work out like that for me because Well, I suppose it I just couldn't get back to normal quickly or what would be considered normal. I got actually got more depressed Um, it was the most depressed I've been since the original trial after it all ended um It sort of caught up with me because in the interim you're fighting. Yeah It's a bit like a bereavement. You know when the person dies Um, whoever if you're involved in the funeral arrangements and all the rest of it You're so busy with that And all the legalese you don't really have time to grieve Um, and that only hits you afterwards You know like when you've done the wake and everybody's gone home and you just sitting there on your own So it's afterwards is when if you like grieving from my loss of I don't know character Everything else that's when it's set in. So actually I went downhill for about the first year after It all ended But then I sort of gradually picked up then because we did start doing more holidays and things Did you have difficulty sort of re-assimilating into your community? Were you did you feel you could participate again in friends and activities and No, not to a great agreement. Is it this during this period that I really stopped going to london? it was I started to Dislike my fellow travelers a lot because in the interim period of from previous 10 years It all become noisier louder more drunk, especially if you come back later the evening You just got more Loudish behavior in general the later the trains you've got on And I was getting too old for that because I didn't want the aggro having to move seats all these other things How did you feel about your sm community? Were you able to return to that? No, not really I I still had and still always will have an interest in the sm side of life But I don't have the I should say the desire in quite the same way that I used to have I just can't get out the back of my head that things might go pear shaped again And I know I'm not alone because Tony Said he felt the same after the case that ended. He said he never really felt comfortable Doing sm in the uk again And he had quite a lot of friends in Germany and he'd feel all right in Germany I mean I went over with him to meet some of his German friends And they done a beautiful sort of send up of the trial With a judge and all the rest of it, you know, it was actually really good Unfortunately, I don't know what we're done with it But and I think it was in German anyway, which might not help you It's but I know exactly what he meant. He never he never felt quite as comfortable Um So I worry that for instance, I'll be in someone's address book And that there's someone might get in some trouble for something they've done with someone else This sort of chain effect again and suddenly let's say person x five down the line They've been done for I don't know Underage kids or something. Yeah, then they join up all the dots and they'd be back round again, you know And I I just couldn't cope with that sort of thing again nowadays. So no, I still think about the sm world Look online quite often to see what's going on. But actually our um online sm world has been pretty much sterilized our existence by changes of uk laws and things on pornography The one source that used to be quite good and free was tumbler Yeah, but they removed all their porn not long ago because that was much more niche You could have little niches with you tumbler. I see And sort of realistic ones not like the niches that the heterosexual world think we ought to have Which is how most of pawns run their days by the sort of straight world So and I haven't really got the courage to go back to clubs. So part of me would like to Um And also I can't stand as much pain as I used to. Oh, I mean, um, I really can't You know, whether that's an effect of I think it's old age So I have all your skin gets thin and say you've got no padding for a start Everything bleeds much more quickly And uh, no, I like the idea of it all still and mentally I can still Play games and have good dreams and things Um That in practice, I'm not sure how well I'd I'd get on and I'd only have to meet one sort of you're like wrong and to sort of Collapse me down to a heap again. So best left alone. I do Occasion I'm doing me occasionally now go to saunas Just to see a bit of stiff willy now again, you know cheers you up to see him, didn't it? But even that I can't that's they've changed And I don't have the energy either that I used to have I mean, I was telling you Before about, you know, carry on for hours and hours So I can't do that now Those interest you think I like bother You know most would just go read a book or watch the telly So not really the interest I had at all Other than people sort of Be of an eye on it. That's it really Okay Some of the people in the community Have said that you And tony brown and uh, colin lasky are heroes for having taken a stand And fighting back against this injustice How do you feel about being called a hero in barris really to be honest? I don't think any of us think of ourselves as heroes We think of ourselves as Unjustly put through the legal system for no real good Achieve nothing for anybody The vast majority of us and us It's only us three had good professional jobs. What has that achieved is remove good professional people from the workplace is what it did Um, nobody's indispensable. I know but what was the point of just getting rid of people that were good at their jobs for what they did Well in their bedrooms or something similar, you know, it's like I was saying about the school teacher that the police informed the Governors after with His immediate hate said nothing to do with actually private life But the governor's then sacked it, you know, it's It's that sort of slight addictiveness. I don't like about the whole system and they still don't like it I just wish they'd leave the gay world alone a bit more And that's what everybody says all the drivers say can't you go and get the real criminals? You know, everybody says go and get the real criminals whoever they are Well, of course I'm one aren't I because I've got conviction So In 2000 You received the leather archives and museums century and award In recognition of your significant service to the 20th century leather community. Yeah That was lovely. How did you really not brilliant. Okay feel brandy about that. I mean, it's one thing To feel embarrassed about if you are sort of hero status, but it's quite another to actually get something. It's rather lovely Um, it makes you it reinforces the fact that it wasn't all a waste of time Right, there are people out there who thought it was a worthwhile Stand to make. Yeah, that's which we did on moral grounds because we knew it was iniquitous and so Yes, it was lovely. And we've had a couple of other things. There's a gay times top 100 people list I think around the same time when we were in that That sort of thing is very nice What's the biggest misconception about you that I'm a dangerous pervert in the eyes of public in the press I'm very safe But you are a pervert. Yeah. Oh Actually, I'm not sure it's a phrase I like but I don't mind Um, I do like doing things that I feel will upset The religious people that's similar type sort of head in the sand folk But then I've always had a moral code Okay that I work by um And I told the police this this was also in my statement to both the appeal court the house of lords and to the european court None of whom I expect read them, but there you go It's all right saying the system says you can submit these but nobody knows whether these people ever read them They probably don't bother and There wasn't a lot on my moral code to be honest. There's only three Points, which I can't remember. So I'll have another look in my little book. Okay. This was a notebook I had when I was actually in the meek. Yes and wrote in it and um moral code Sorry, I do want to please say something. No, no, please right never harm anybody That was an harm. I mean mentally harm Um, that's different from hurt hurting people is part of their same thing I didn't say it's wrong with that if they were happy but harming people Such that you screw them up mentally or make them in some way go off the rails. I wouldn't ever want to do that Never do anything without consent Now consent can doesn't have to be written down Or to a degree even said the mere fact that you're there together in a particular if you like Game situation sm situation means they've consented because they've turned up Um, as I've said previously people have safe words. Yes, if they've got any sense and um And also the other thing is always try to help people I've always tried to help people I help people and I'm out and about with the dog I just try and be helpful if I can It's not all appreciated by me part of mind you said stop interfering That's the nature of knowing someone for years and years as opposed to a stranger. You can help for a few seconds, you know I mean I help ladies of till's where often peculiar amounts of change so that I get a 50p Peace back or or something, you know, and they get all of the muddle Um, I don't know if you do the same sort of things in America, you know You've got something in a few cents and you think well if I give you an extra Half dollar or something, you know, then it'll make it easier for the change Okay, of course it does. It's confused the poor Folk and it ends up as a mess, but it doesn't matter. I make people laugh in hospital waiting rooms and Anywhere, you know, I can make people laugh with silly remarks So that I enjoy I think that's all right. I don't think that's against at all I think it's wonderful. Let's a drop in a bus or something Why not? When we were preparing for this interview Yeah You told me that the time had come to Put this issue to rest. Yeah Do you truly feel You've made peace with this issue and that when we are finished here That you truly will Put it to bed and be done with it I can never 100% put it to bed from the grounds that it was part of my life if even if the fact you don't talk about it And it doesn't come up in conversation at all At the end of the day it's something that did happen to me did affect me But that's not the same as having to do like Regular discussions about it. I mean when this is Interviews done and out in the world. I should worry about that to a degree, but then I'm a born warrior Anyways of my nature if you like It was much the same when I had the Little film done by Charlie Lyne Which Lastie Marks, which was also put out he won an award for it because it was such a good little film And I felt nervous after that but nothing happened, you know So I probably am worrying about nothing But that's a sign of someone who's got a slightly depressive nature if you like they look on the black side of things rather than the good side But no, I'm hoping I mean I've already I pretty much forgotten all the dates of everything I mean that's a star for years. I used to remember every date The events and the court cases and this and that I struggle now to even remember what decade things happened in quite often. So from that point of view. Yes, it will slip to the back So yes, it'll be there hovering somewhere at the back as I said earlier in regards like meeting new people and things I should always worry about this chain of connections And that's it the other the other advantage of course is with things like Contact groups on the internet and stuff that's fairly anonymous More so than things used to be so one on one with people on that They don't even know your surname alone where you live or anything. So As long as I end up visiting people more than having me here. I don't feel comfortable having people here anymore You know, I just feel more nervous than I used to I mean, I couldn't do that now. We haven't got the curtain I hope you didn't tear it down for a dress or something. No No, I was never into cross dressing One of the visitors where you should have a couple of schoolgirls in quotes They were very naughty. They had to be just On a fairly regular basis one of one of the and he was a he was a small lad anyway And he was always terribly guilty after he came Rush he'd rush off out Anyway, there you go. I think a lot of people in the gay world have failed heterosexuals Oh Is what I call them. They don't do proper gay sex as I see it They just do what they think is gay sex, which is a bit of wanking and that's pretty much it. You know They like puddens a lot of them, you know passive Dollops who do nothing and I think can't be bothered with this, you know, it's got to be a two-way thing But it has they've got to be keen and enthusiastic, which I used to be I think I feel a bit more interested already if it's an iced out might go down One of the scratchwoodle somewhere Anyway, that was it. Yes I would like to conclude this interview By saying that I truly lack vocabulary adequate to properly thank you For all that you've done in that you've accomplished With this with your life and for SM people all over the world truly You've challenged me you've inspired me and Taught me how to be a better interviewer in enabling me to come here and meet you and conduct this interview with you and I am so grateful to be entrusted with this information with your personal history and these intimate details of your world And I'm honored To be able to meet you and to come here and to do that and I Would like to say on behalf of inside leather history A fireside chat and has semers the world over I thank you We thank you That's really very kind and I appreciate you