 Mary Kay is a life advisor, author and a TED speaker. She holds a PhD in human services and specialises in family and child sciences and she tells us that she likes to write books based upon common questions she's been asked. Her first one was called Hassle Free Bedtime. Maybe I should have read that before I had my four children. So Mary Kay, over to you. Thank you so much, Linda, for hosting and for inviting me today. I was going to say good afternoon and realised they might be saying good evening in some parts of the world. I get kind of confused with all the time changes. Could you tell me, do my slides just pop up in front of me? How does that work, Linda? You just slide it along with a little button at the bottom of the page. Okay, it wasn't showing before, so thank you. I'm really excited to be invited here to talk to everyone. You want the bike up? I hear somebody saying my mic needs to go up. Let me adjust that real quick. Yep, that's lovely. Okay, great. So this research project was very exciting to me. I went into it not really sure of what we were going to find, but we designed it, said that I could teach my fathers to massage their babies and then capture their experiences. And I'm sure the results are really exciting and we'll get to those, but equally exciting was the process of the research itself. And so it was quite a learning experience, not only for me, but for the other people that were involved. So the question we posed is what benefits would father perceive from massaging their children? And then there was a significance in the literature review and what I discovered when I did a critical review was that of all the research that had been done on infant massage, it had been done primarily with babies and mothers or babies and professional caregivers. There were only two studies to date, one in 2000 and one in 2005 in which fathers had been involved. And there were positive outcomes in that research. The other thing that was very, very revealing was that when I looked at attachment theory, that in the 1920s, here's how attachment theory evolved. In the 1920s, there was a researcher by the name of Hammett who studied the relationship between mother rats and baby rats. In the 1930s, Harlow studied the relationship between mommy monkeys and baby monkeys. And then of course, Bowlby and Amesworth in the 40s and the 50s looked at the relationship between human mothers and their babies and went on to develop the attachment theory and also the tool that measured attachment between the mothers and the babies. And as you can see very clearly, there was someone who was left out of all this research and that would be the fathers. We go on to the next slide. So when we took a look at this, we decided that, you know, to use qualitative research to kind of capture this as a case study. And so the case study was an end of one in that being this group of five fathers and then the exploration of their experiences. And then I'll go through later on the demographics, the structured interviews, the self report diary and the observations. So we were collecting data from multiple sources and therefore strengthening the research by triangulation. So here's how the data collection worked. First, there was a screening and so fathers were determined to either be eligible or ineligible. I had one young father who was, we had set the age at about 25 and he was 22. And actually we had two fathers under the age of 25 that he decided to let in because both of them were so persistent about wanting to be, wanting to be included in this research. And both of them seemed so dedicated to their babies and they wanted to learn how to massage that my committee and I decided to go ahead and include them in the study. So during the first initial screening part, the demographic survey and I asked each one of them why they wanted to be in the survey. And then at stage one, a structured interview was conducted with each of the fathers. Now this was done separately. They did not meet each other. They did not know each other. This was done in their home. And they were done at scheduled appointed times. So first there was a structured interview in which questions were asked that asked them about their relationship with their baby, how did they describe their baby, their role in their baby's life, what kind of activities they currently were involved in with their babies. And then they were, I demonstrated input massage as prescribed by the Certified International Association of Input Massage. They have a prescribed procedure. And after they learned it, then there was a five minute video of them practicing the massage. Then during stage two, when I left that day, I left them with a diary and the diary collected the time of day, the strokes that they used, the body part that they massaged and they were instructed to continue to do this for three weeks and then record it once a week. And so they were on their own for three weeks. And then I would come back at the end of the three weeks and I would conduct the same structured interview, another five minute video recording. Then they were allowed to review both of those videos and I captured their responses to watching themselves in both of those videos. So, and then at the end of the research, of course, there was member checking, I checked with them to make sure that I had captured what they had said and that it was, it was correct. And then, as the incentive, the moms were asked not to be involved during this time period. So as an incentive afterwards, they were allowed to invite the mother to come back for a pre-input massage class. In some case, grandparents wanted to be involved and we went ahead and included them in that as well. Now this for me was the exciting part because all of us that are very familiar with research understand that in our cultures quantitative research is considered to be superior. I think that this is a fallacy and I think it's like trying to compare apples and oranges. They might both be fruits, but they're obviously not the same. And so this was a crosswalk that I felt used, you know, after having read numerous articles on qualitative research and by researchers who had been qualitative researchers for quite some time and were very notorious in the field. And I looked at what they were saying as far as why qualitative research was not being considered to be credible and to be as valid or as important as quantitative research. So in making sure that first of all this research met qualitative research figure, that's what this first slide is about. So credibility was met through triangulation of the data, that's the different data sources. Member checking, checking back with the fathers to make sure everything was taken in accordance and then the time sampling. The initial time was of course at the beginning again at the end and then in between for the three weeks. The transferability was met through providing thick description in the research in defining what attachment theory was, engagement cues, taking a look at the definitions, the operational definitions. It was important to be very precise in the vocabulary but also to provide an extensive vocabulary in order to describe what was happening in the research. And then the purpose of sampling. Just because it's small and there are only five fathers does not mean that it's not representative and you'll be able to see that from the demographics. The dependability, creating an audit trail so that anyone else could go back over it, coding and the recoding strategy were defined and then again triangulation. And then the confirmability, again triangulation, practicing reflexivity, letting people know that I had been an infant massage instructor before I did the research and then looking at negative case analysis. And to me looking at negative case analysis is just being transparent. So this is the part that I was excited about and that's the qualitative research strategies and how they not only met the rigor and the standards for qualitative research, but what that means in terms of quantitative language. So credibility meets internal validity and that's that's based on other research articles. There were so many different research articles on qualitative research that I was able to review those and then pull them together in order to create this crosswalk. So transferability is, I don't want to use the word equal, it's comparable to external validity. Dependability is equated with reliability and confirmability is equated with objectivity. And so that's, I've already written one research article on the research itself and the second one that I'm developing right now is on this piece of it, this piece of the qualitative research and how it is important and what it brings to the table for researchers. And this was how the data analysis, the data was analyzed. It was done through AtlasTI. It was an incredible experience. It was my first time using it. Our local university did not have the money that year to be able to send me overseas for the training on it that the AtlasTI people have. Extensive YouTube videos, you can sit down and go piece by piece through it and train yourself on how to use it. I really enjoyed using it. At that particular time, I did not analyze the video through it. That was done by hand. But I think it was done through, what I did was I observed it, captured my reactions through the written word and then uploaded those documents into AtlasTI rather than uploading the video in there. But in the future, the video can be uploaded into AtlasTI in order to do a data analysis on it that way. It doesn't make it any less valuable or meaningful. It was just a different way of doing it. It also has a systematic qualitative data analysis that develops the primary elements and the interpretation and the meaning of the data and useful knowledge. And then also dependable qualitative research increase stability at conceptual analysis stage, not limited to content or subject matter from any discipline. So it's also able to handle data from a variety of different disciplines, not necessarily on social sciences or human sciences. And what I really enjoyed about it was that you can take a theory such as attachment theory and code in the final analysis to determine whether or not the data and the patterns that came out of the coding supported attachment theory. So this is a model of how this particular data analysis transpired with AtlasTI. There's a German professor by the name of Suzanne Freese that's written a book about AtlasTI and goes into quite a bit of detail on the defensibility of using data analysis and qualitative research. And in there, she quotes other researchers who use the MCT, which is Noticing, Collecting, and Thinking. And you'll notice that the pattern is very circular. And so you repeat the pattern until you find a level of saturation. And what the saturation means, you've gone through it, you've gone through it, you've gone through it, and nothing new is popping up at that point in time. So that's saturation. This is how the code mapping. There were three iterations of analysis. First, it was uploaded demographic data, diary data analysis, my own reactions to the videos. Then there was an initial coding and a process coding in this first iteration. And basically, it's exactly what it means, initial and surface content analysis. So looking at it from the surface, having more broad categories and coding in the different areas. And then when we move into the second one where the pattern variables, it's taking a look at those broad categories and seeing patterns in them as well as the in vivo, the literal coding to determine the pattern coding. And then going into the third iteration is where the theoretical coding come in or the code mapping. Taking a look at what was actually happening and how, whether or not it supported the constructs of attachment theory. I'm checking this side just in case there's any questions that pop up over there as I'm going through. So the next question is why infant massage. And I had, as I said, had done a critical review in 2010 on infant massage. And there were so many benefits of infant massage. A matter of fact, there is no research to date that shows that infant massage produces any kind of a harmful threat or that there is any negative consequences to massaging a baby. But the further reasons for picking infant massage is first of all attachment is the result of specific behaviors reinforcing a relationship over time, which equals commitment, or I like to call it the stick factor. So in other words, when we behave a certain way to another human being, and in this case we're talking about babies and their caregivers, it could actually be you and your romantic partner. But when we behave in a certain predictable pattern and we do certain things, this creates attachment over a long period of time. And bonding is the biochemical reaction or the chemistry between two human beings, which ignites through the five senses. And this is one of the reasons for infant massage. Infant massage provides the behavior that can be consistent over time, but it also provides the opportunity for bonding, which happens through the five senses. When a parent or a caregiver massages the baby, they can smell the baby, they touch the baby, they talk to the baby, they see the baby. And in some cases parents, when they're kissing the baby, may even touch the baby. And so during this particular time when we know that actually touching the human skin is the largest organ of the body, so it really creates an intensive sensory experience during the massage. So now I'm going into the results area and looking at the time of day. One of the things that became apparent right off the bat was that one of the fathers said something to the mother. And like I said, the mothers were not present at the time the babies were being massaged, but the mother made a comment to the father that she noticed that the baby sleeps better after massage. So this particular father decided to change the time of day that he was massaging the baby. And another father noticed in the evening that his baby seemed to like being massaged better when it was on its stomach. And that sensitivity is one of the attachment constructs. The duration, these are actual quotes back from the fathers. He tried to be as consistent as possible. He did decide to do the massage four to five times a day depending if she was in the mood. She was the only little girl in the study. And the more we did the massage for about five minutes, I felt like she enjoyed it more. Another father said he liked the shorter massages and he noticed that this father, they stand out to me. This particular father was very verbal during his interviews and his baby was very verbal. I had instructed the fathers that they were in control. And so if the baby started to cry that there's a difference between them fussing because something new happened and them crying because they were uncomfortable or in pain. And that they should trust themselves. And this father's baby did a lot of fussy crying. He kind of bordered on it but he wasn't in pain exactly. And so what we realized afterwards was that his baby was very verbal. And it wasn't until he saw the pre-video and the second video that he realized how much more comfortable the baby had gotten. Because the type of fussy that he gave us or verbal feedback that he gave us was so much different during that three-week period that you could tell that he was just, he was kind of communicating about his experience but it wasn't a negative thing. And so as the three weeks went on, as you can see from this quote, father had begun to feel more comfortable with it because he had shortened the massages and evidently the stimulation for this baby needed to be shorter rather than longer. These are the demographics of the fathers. You can see we had two fathers in their thirties. We had two fathers who were under 25 and one just over. Two, three of the fathers were married. The other two were living with a partner and that was the requirement of the study that they had to be cohabitating in the time of the baby's birth and also during the research. The race, we had three Caucasian men and two African American men and then their level of education. And as you can see, the fathers who were in college level with the exception of one were of course, actually there were four fathers of college level. Two of them were earning less than 25,000. They were full-time students. The college fathers who were earning more than 25,000 already had their college degree and were out earning in their chosen field. And then we had a graduate father who was working on his PhD, which he just received this year. And his earning level, as you can see at the particular time, was also in the lower category. And as I stated, we only had one baby who was female, the other four were male. Body parts, this is what was so relevant to supporting attachment theory. The fathers were very sensitive and also adjusted. They adjusted time of day. They adjusted the body parts that they... Excuse me, I had to get my cat down. The body part that they massaged as well as were sensitive enough to notice that the breathing changed in his baby. So he adjusted both the touch and the pressure. He liked doing short stomach massages to help with the gas. This is where I reported the treatment. And then also we had a father who noticed a change in the eye contact between him and his baby. And he said that he realized that on the days that he didn't seem to be looking at him, he would start to do so. This is the pattern coding. What came out in the pattern coding was the father's motivation, how they felt about infant massage and what their desire was. Fathers liked that during this time they spent with their babies that they got time to spend with the baby, but they also liked that the mother got some time to herself. Father adjusted the time of day according to meet the mother's needs as well as to meet the baby's needs, which showed a desire to both please the mother and the baby. And then the father's got that one-on-one time that they so desired. Many of the fathers, all five of the fathers, during that initial interview, I can't remember if I put it in the slides or not, so forgive me, I'm going to go ahead and jump back to this in case it's not in here. When I asked them why they wanted to be a part of this research, it was very significant that each one of them stated, because I don't have a breast. They did not feel like they had a way into the baby. The father's desire to relieve the infant stress, they responded to the touch, the infant responded to their touch as well as they adjusted their touch in order to make the baby happier and to help their baby enjoy the experience. They adjusted the body part the time of day and, again, the father got one-on-one time with the baby. So there were two motivations there. Perceived benefits. The father's reported that they benefited. One father even said in his research to support this on infant massage, but one father said, you know, I kept noticing I was getting more relaxed the more I massaged my baby. And then the baby receives the massage and the baby benefits from the massage. And so it's circular, increasing and reinforcing those behavior patterns. This is the matrix of the finding and the sources for the data. I, of course, over to your right, stands for the interview. O stands for the observation. And D stands for the document which was the diary and or also the interview response if there was a section in there where they could put in under the, oh, under the diary, there was a section in there where they could actually put other comments that they wanted to make in addition to recording what we had asked them to record. So here are the findings. Awareness, emotion, engagement, motivation, opportunity and relationship are the six constructs of attachment theory. They reported enjoying it and as well as contributing to their infant's well-being. They identified emotions both in themselves and their infants after massaging their infants. They demonstrated engagement cues, engagement cues being eye contact, communication with the baby, adjusting, so on and so forth. Motivation bothers reported motivation to both massage and spend time with their infants to relieve the caregiving of the mother. They valued the opportunity to spend time with their infants. They expressed approval and acceptance of their infants after massaging them. Seven, sensitivity, they demonstrated sensitivity to their infant's emotional and physical need by responding to their infant's cues and either adjusting the time of day, adjusting the pressure, adjusting what body parts and then the benefits. Fathers reported benefits of relieving the infant's stress. They said that they, and this comes into the next one, they felt more confident and confidence in their skills and their ability to interact with their babies. One father quote unquote said, I now have a toolbox. I have something I can do to help my baby. They liked being able to feel like they could fix something. Proceeds benefits, bonding, competency, contribution and calming, distressing and communication but verbal and non-verbal, enjoyment and relaxing. They enjoyed that the baby was relaxing. They enjoyed that they were relaxing. They felt like it was a great one on one time and there was even playfulness within the time period in which they massaged their baby. And then, of course, the relationship and their sensitivity to the baby. And then, and this basically is how I sell and from massage. A lot of times when I'm talking to the public, they're not as crazy about hearing the research. I'll just say, would you like more sleep? And then I'll ask them, how well do you sleep after a massage? And that's usually the clincher there. This is the attachment concepts and assumptions. The awareness, emotion, emotive, engagement, motivation, opportunity, relationship, sensitivity, learning and insight. And each one of those assumptions were met through the data as I've already gone through those. The implications for future research and implications practice for professionals, implications for practice for fathers and contributions to the literature. These are actually four areas that I'm working on articles for submission and implications for future research. There needs to be a longitudinal study and to determine whether or not fathers who originally learned to massage their baby will continue this on. You can actually massage children until they tell you they don't want you to massage them anymore. What impact there was on the father-child dyad during the early years? What were the mother's perceptions about the time the fathers spent with the infant and their behaviors after the study? This one's particularly important because, oh, I see there's questions coming up, just let me finish this thought, because there was originally a study that showed that when mothers who reported postpartum depression symptoms, either massage their babies and or, and here's the caveat, watch their baby being massaged by other professionals, that they reported less symptoms of postpartum depression. So a study particularly having fathers massage the baby and allowing the mother to watch would be an interesting study to determine if that helps lower her reports of postpartum depression. Somebody's asking, let's see, any essential oil? Let's see, lavender, chamomile, lavender. When I teach the class, I ask parents to bring their own, and I suggest either vegetable oil or coconut oil, but I also have them do a sensitivity test on the inside of the wrist where the skin is the thinnest to determine if there's any kind of sensitivity. You'll get red and swell there if there's some sort of sensitivity. You never want to have a baby have a complete allergic reaction to the oil, and especially when they're younger, it's generally a good idea to stick to something that's pretty generic. And so that's my personal recommendation. I know a lot of people that do things differently. If the parent chooses to bring in oil that they've already used on their baby and they know that works, that's fine. I don't provide that oil just because I would not, if somebody's saying here never put an essential straight onto the skin, I just would not use essential oils straight on a baby because they're so small that it's hard to determine whether or not their toxicity levels would be high. Okay, so then the next slide is replication of past studies determine outcomes for fathers' contributions. Any of the studies that have already been done, I mean premature babies, actually leave the NICU six weeks as much as six weeks earlier than babies that have not been massaged. Each one of those studies that were listed in the critical review could be done again only this time with fathers. The two research articles that were done, one of them came out of Australia and one of them was with, I'm just trying to remember my mind some like, I can't remember it, Tiffany Fields and I think it was Dr. Hernandez did one on fathers and both of them indicated that not only did fathers express more emotionally, that although they didn't spend more quantity of time with the baby, they spent more quality of time with the baby and that babies themselves would actively try to engage the father. So, for instance, the father had been out of the house and he came back in and the baby was on the floor or somewhere near the front door and dad would walk through that they would try to elicit eye contact with the father. So they became more proactive in the engagement process with the father. What those studies did not have and the reason this study was so important was that there was not a framework of a theory in order to substantiate the bonding and attachment. As a matter of fact, there was only one article that took a look at father attachment and bonding. It was a longitudinal study done by two researchers who were married and they used the Amesworth Stranger Anxiety Test and when I reviewed it at first I kind of agreed with them and thought well maybe fathers don't attach and then it hit me that that particular test was done on mothers and babies and of course mom has carried the baby for nine months and the dad would not have had that optimal bonding time necessarily. They hadn't screened for that to determine whether or not fathers were present at the birth and it was also done with fathers with older children. So I think that the testing instrument itself was inappropriate to make that determination which is exciting news. So in looking in the future another study that could be done is both with mom and father learning how to massage the baby and taking a look at the family as an ecological unit rather than just a parent child dyad in separate. Non-resident fathers are less involved than resident fathers and had the same attitudes of commitment to fathering as fathers who were resident fathers. However, they reported feeling lower feelings of competence and satisfaction. Competency and confidence are two dynamics in the research literature for any parenting programs and if you can look and see the, I'm just trying to think of the name of the, oh it's escaped my mind, I don't want to say Cameron but that's not Campbell's studies in which it's like the highest level of critical review analysis including all the data analysis and in those parenting critical reviews, competency and competence. Competency and competency are two of the determining factors of parents staying involved over the long term. Mary Kay, can I just pop in here and say that we're getting quite close to the time we need to wrap up? Yes, thank you. I think we're almost done here. Implications for practice for professionals, bonding and attachment, opportunities for fathers. Fathers showed a willingness to relieve the mother. Additionally, they responded emotionally and motivation and I want to get to what's really important here as well. New fathers transitioning into a father world, this is an opportune moment and babies can be massaged right after birth and that's why I thought it was so important for midwives and knowing that they need to feel that their contributions. One of the things that happened was that fathers who were not involved in the study came up to me out in the community. I would be at dinner with friends or talking about the study and they would share with me that although they were there when their wife or the mother of their baby gave birth to the baby, that they still felt like an interloper because most of the time she was surrounded by other female professionals and that they would talk directly to her and there wasn't a lot of eye contact. Now this is only within the last two to three years so sometimes I'll have midwives or some say, you know, we try very hard to include the fathers. Here's the thing, I think sometimes when we're under the moment and we're in the moment that we may not realize that we still are not giving them as much with our body language, with the eye contact, encouraging them to be involved because inherently they feel like an interloper. It's not our fault that they feel like that but we can do a lot to engage them. Yeah, here it is here. Fathers desired involvement. Do we have, I think the question to walk away with is do we support or discourage father involvement and include them as much as we can in infant caregiving or do we automatically assume because they're men that they're not going to know as much as we do? I met some very educated fathers who had been reading from the time they found out that their wife or their significant other was pregnant. And so with that I'll say I'm done talking and Linda did you want to entertain questions or what did you want to go from here? Yes indeed, we could have some questions. Have we got any that we didn't answer as we went along? I don't think we did. Would anybody have any questions to ask? Ah, shall we let someone have the mic? Let's give Carline the mic. There you go Carline, just click yourself on and ask your question. You know I want to answer this one. Fathers in the hospital feel like that but a home birthing bothers so part of the process. You know several of the fathers did have home birthing and some of them had birth center experiences that still felt that way. Like I said I think sometimes because we're going out of our way we think that that's enough and you know it really has to come out for some of them. I just don't think we should assume that we're doing everything. I totally agree I have to say because that was actually from a bit of research that I did that showed that fathers felt more involved when they were doing the home birthing bit because the midwife was the invited guest whereas in the hospital the father is the uninvited guest. Anyway Carline did you want to ask the question? You know and I wonder if they might even, Linda, determine it by whether or not they feel as somebody's in control. You know even though you're the invited guest in but maybe because we're professionals and because we have the knowledge base they might acquiesce to us. That's what I mean it's not necessarily the professional's fault. It might be their perception. I do agree with that too. I'm not too sure whether Carline was going to ask the question or not. Anyway what else do we have? Do we have any questions here? Linda if you look in the chat see Carline's got problems with her mic. I'm looking there fathers can start massage during pregnancy over belly. Oh yes that's just wonderful I'm sure the mothers would love that too. You know something that's not in here that's in my TED Talk slides on my website Barry T. Brazel can hold the baby up between the mother and him and says now you call the baby and I'll call the baby and the baby turns its head towards her. Then he turns around and he says it to the new father and he said in 70% of the cases the baby almost always turns its head towards the father so that way the father knows that the baby recognized its voice from when it was in the mother's tummy. It's a very powerful video. I think Carline's question is around fathers suffering PPD and whether there's any link with the sort of stuff you're talking about Mary Kay. Maybe she references a study that Toronto is doing. I haven't seen any studies but honestly intuitively understanding that when you massage somebody you have the same kind of chemical reaction in your brain as the person who's being massaged. I think it would make a wonderful study because I think you would find something there to be honest with you. And as far as same-sex couples and couples who adopt there have already been studies on adoption couples and the same thing. You know I don't necessarily think it's determined by sex. So one of the things I'm very excited about with this study is like for instance here in the US there is discriminatory practices against two fathers adopting a child. And you know to be able to show that men do attach and bond I think is incredible research and there needs to be more done on that. I'm reading Sick Children's Hospital. Sorry. Just one last comment then please. Daily massage. I'm a slow reader sorry. Oh yeah I love this when I have daddy put his in the mom's lap and read to the baby. You know when I was born and I'm telling my age here my father was sent off to the waiting room and my mother labored delivered and recovered alone and he saw her in the room. And I think the first time he saw me was between a behind a glass window and I started this research back in 2010 and my mother passed away in 2012 and then I did the TED talk. I had applied for it and hadn't told anybody about it and I did the TED talk April 10th. Unfortunately my father passed away on February 2nd so he wasn't able to see this this research but it is very near and dear to my heart now. That's great then thank you very much Mary Kay that was a delightfully interesting presentation and we will need to move on to kind of sort out the room for the next speaker although she's not here yet. I just as a final remark there's a rather funny little piece of video going around on Facebook at the moment I don't know if you've seen it of a toddler massaging the baby. Oh yes I also teach siblings you know just for a point of information it's a great way to lower sibling rivalry. The toddlers and older children like to have something they can do even if they just learned how to massage a foot or a little hand or something. This is a very tiny little toddler can't be very old at all and he suddenly just goes along and kind of starts to massage this baby spontaneously. It's lovely. I mean it might have been set up who knows but it was a nice idea just the same. Well one last caveat Linda is that as I massaged my grandchildren and they got to be older they come in the house now and want to massage my shoulders. Yep I used to massage my son who's got a chronic condition and it just relaxed him and that was in his teens and even now he'll come over to me when he comes in and start doing the same kind of thing. It's wonderful and as I said earlier on it's all the oxytocin to me it's all down to oxytocin but anyway I think we need to close at that point so that we can prepare the room for the next session. Thank you so very much Mary Kay. All her contact details are on the website if you want to continue this conversation or know more about her TED Talks and things like that as well as on this slide so please do go. I noticed she befriended me on Facebook already. Or maybe I would befriended you. It was one way or the other. Thank you so much. It was such a privilege. It was my first virtual presentation and you all are just fantastic. Thank you so much. Well you're a natural asset then. That was very well done. Thank you very much. So I'm just going to ask everybody to finish chatting whatever they want to put in the chat box and we're going to move on in just a minute. But let me do the final slides which I almost forgot. Sorry. I need to remember to turn off the record which I'll do just now.