 It is my deepest conviction that in order to not lose the war against secret services, pushing for more and more surveillance laws all over Europe and all over the world, we need events like this to connect, to share and also to support initiatives that fight for girls that are really worth fighting for. And the next speaker did something really, really impressive. Together with friends, she built an alliance against the surveillance law in the Netherlands and they collected more than 400,000 signatures and the next step will be to start a referendum. I'm really impressed and I hope you are too. Please give a very, very warm applause to Nina Polsons. Hello everyone. Thank you so much for coming. It's an honor and I hope you had a great Congress so far. So yeah, my name is Nina. I'm one of the five students who organized the referendum and I'm going to tell you all about how we did it and what's coming up and what this all means in the greatest scheme of things. So first of all, the law, because we need to know what we're talking about here. What does it contain? Well, in Dutch we call it the slavewit, which is bringing together of the words slave net and vets, which means something like the dragnet law. Because one of the allowances in this law is that intelligence agencies will be allowed to intercept untargeted traffic on the cable. That means, for instance, when you live in Rotterdam and there is a suspect living in the area, then all of your traffic on the cable can be collected, analyzed and stored for up to three years, which is a really fucking long time. So that's one part of it. But aside from that, they will also get access to basically any database imaginable, which is even real time. So the government is saying this is not a proposal about mass surveillance, like with the snooper's charter. However, implementing that many dragnets, because there's not a maximum to it, we don't know how big they will be and they don't know what they are looking for. And also adding up to that the access to all these databases means that you can collect a massive amount of data, which in conclusion is there for mass surveillance. Another problem is that it will allow the hacking of third parties, which so if you have a terrorist suspect, you can not just hack them, but also their mom or the journalist that they have been speaking to. And obviously that leads to hoarding, zero days, when you all get way less secure and it's all bad. And they can also exchange this data, unanalyzed with foreign countries. And this is where human rights advocates are really worried about because these countries don't necessarily respect our freedoms or our rights. So yeah, this is all really bad. And it's consequences, well, that's usually what I talked about when I do a presentation about this, but you are basically the community who has taught me this, so I feel like preaching for the choir here. But just to go quickly over it, it's a chilling effect where you start self-centering because you know that all of your actions might have a consequence in the future. And obviously it's also a loss of privacy, and privacy is such a basic thing, it's a really meta right, like you can't really have freedom of speech or even freedom of thought if you don't have any privacy. Because our online behavior is like a blueprint of our minds, and that's where they're going to pry into. And well, yeah, you know the story, but that's kind of where I'm like, meh. So yeah, that was our vibe. So in the summer of this year, the law got passed actually, and there was some up here for about it in like upper levels, like there were lobbyists and lawmakers making a fuss about it, but there wasn't really like a broad public debate. And we thought, what the fuck, we can't let this happen. What's the thing that we can do now that this law has already passed? Well, if you're just a regular citizen, the only option is to organize a referendum. And so we thought, let's do that. So, oh yeah, so, thank you. In order to organize a referendum in the Netherlands, you need to get 300,000 signatures on a population of 17 million. And referendum aren't really like Salon-Fehig, the after Brexit and after the Ukraine referendum that we had, people tend to view it as a really populist sort of bad tasting subject, but we wanted to try it anyway. And at first it went pretty well because we had the first day and we had like 5,000 signatures, next day it's 10,000 signatures, but that was our little bubble, our little like the hacking community and the privacy people, and we got a lot of support also from a rather controversial right-wing bloc called Geen Stijl, and that got us up pretty well at first, and then, yeah, nothing happened. It was just really quiet. But then we got contacted by Amnesty International and they said, look, we've tried so hard to stop this law and nothing worked, but we want to help you out. And they like, they actually got two airplanes flying around the country saying, I'm being followed, and so are you, and you need to protest on Slavet-Pentanyl. And they print a million, a million flyers which were all stacked up in their office and we went out to like, hand them out in like, markets and such to sort of get out of that bubble. It was interesting because once you started talking with people on the streets, they didn't really have an opinion about this. There weren't that many people who were just neutral, which I kind of expected. Yeah, this is us handing out flyers. Oh, yeah. So, but then it didn't really like make a massive change and we were, we had six weeks and we were already in the fourth week and we hadn't even gotten a hundred thousand signatures and I already was having like rage fits in my room, like, yeah, all these people that say they're about privacy, but they don't actually help out and I need more support or wherever is everybody and all these parties that don't want to like touch the referendum. Then we got a message from Arja Lubach, which is a comedian in the Netherlands, really popular setter show, and he said, yeah, you're going to be in the episode tonight, so you might want to get some extra servers and we're like, what? So, yeah, Luca and Joran just spent the entire, and during the episode, he was still busy with it and it was like, it was 18 minutes in which he completely wrecked the entire law. It was, his message was basically, imagine your doorbell rings and there's two people outside and their government officials and they say, well, hello, here's a nice little box and it contains a microphone and a camera and we're going to install these. We might not look at it, but we might. Would you put them up? No fucking way. And that's what everybody said. And then like, things started running, like, the episode on its own like shut us up, but then it also resulted in the press considering us actual news because beforehand we were in this catch 22 where they said like, if you're not in the news, you're not news, but if we bring you in the news, we're making you news and therefore we are not neutral on the referendum idea, so we can't talk about you, but after Lubach, they could. So it sort of gave a push for a momentum and this is how it went. So like, it's a really big stage. This is our little heckery privacy bubble that we have here. And then this is efforts with amnesty and all that and flowering. And then there is the episode and you can also see the really the spike, like up here is where we told the press we had 300,000 signatures and everybody's like, oh, wow, let's talk about this. So things that we noted during this because I think it's interesting to think about what happens when you take the privacy in the digital rights discussion to a national level because it doesn't happen that often. First of all, people do tend to give a shit, which was unexpected. As soon as you start talking about them, like, it wasn't that much effort to make them go, oh yeah, this is a point. And it was really different kinds of people as well. You see also there is not really a left wing or a right wing focus. So privacy is such a fundamental right that it's like, yeah, who's against freedom of speech? Nobody. And therefore you could see that there was from every side of the spectrum activities around this. And I think that was also part of the success because, yeah, we have many differences, but it's good to sometimes combine them for a greater good. Yeah, so news agencies are doing a lot of polls because they all want to be the one that predicted what's going to be the outcome and what you see is interesting that people below 35 tend to be massively against this law and then people over 65 tend to be in favor. And I think that's interesting because I think as a millennial, like my entire identity is based upon what I did online as a teenager. And that's like where all my political ideas come from is why I look like this. But so it's a very intimate thing. And then for people over 65, it's more of an email machine and sometimes get angry at Twitter machine. So it's a public sphere. And that's also where this tension is coming from because, yeah, we kind of know the age differences in lawmakers and such. Oh, yeah. And what I found pretty worrying is like we have these discussions with politicians and stuff. And you go like, yeah, but the algorithm, this and they're like, yeah, but the logarithm, this and what was worrying is that they said, look, there's not really a problem because we might collect all of this data, but then as soon we immediately throw away everything that is unnecessary and then you're all fine. But I completely forget that like big data and like the analysis of that is not magic, that there is actually an entity looking at what you're doing and thinking of what the consequences of that should be. And therefore there shouldn't be a difference in the ethics around it. And there is both a comparison combination of glorification of the tech whilst also there being a ignorance about it. And I think it's a really toxic combination. So going on, I believe that this referendum is about just more than just privacy. Looking around, you can see that governments and also surveillance capitalists are saying, look, you might have all these rights and all these freedoms, but as soon as there is a computer involved, you don't understand it. So these rules that we build up no longer apply. And it's really dangerous. And I think that people aren't as fast to respond to it because of that bullshit cyber idea around it. So yeah, and I'm worried that because this law is sort of like a baby version of the whole, the social credit score, for example. And I really don't want to go to such a level. And also because I'm really worried that once we are there, we will no longer be able to change it because the dissidents will already be known before they even know themselves that they are dissidents. And I think in order to make do this, I think we need to make our movement more mainstream. So I kind of would like to walk into the urban outfitters and next to the feminism t-shirts and the environmentalism t-shirts is like, hey, I'm a privacy activist. And it's a horrible capitalist way of doing activism, but it does sort of show that it's sort of a broad thing. And it's so important that we also include people that we completely dislike to make it broader. And yeah, it's not just because it's handy for ourselves, but it's also our responsibility. Because if we're not going to do it, nobody else is going to do it. So as a community, we need to get out of our ivory tower to change the system instead of subverting it as well, and also subverting it. So where we are now, we are going to have a referendum on the 21st of March. And the state of affairs now is that the government said it's an advisory referendum. So they can completely ignore the outcome. And they've already said that they're going to do that. And I think it's the stupidest idea ever, especially because I can see a momentum growing where all these different groups are getting together and speaking out about it. So it would not just be ignoring the entire democratic process and the voice of the people, but also hurting a growing movement that will then leash out even harder, in my opinion. So they better not ignore it. What a fuckers. One other thing is that I had this really naive still like a little bit left of trust in the government, right, in the system. Turns out they keep saying that this law is necessary because by the current law, it is not allowed to intercept cable traffic. And of course, I understand that you need to be able to do that for actual terrorist suspects. But it turns out they've been doing that since like 2002. There's actual numbers for the number of cable interceptions they've already done. And it's a complete lie. And it's a narrative they're spreading out. So that's rather disappointing. And I've even been repeating it so often that at some point I just started to shut up that cable traffic was already true. But to be clear, they're already intercepting cable traffic, just not untargeted. So what's next? Yeah, we're going to campaign ourselves. Well, actually, Jorgen and Tain are going back to studying, and Ralu and Luca and I are going to campaign. So something that's important to get rid of is the fake privacy versus safety idea. Because it doesn't make sense. Like your privacy is a human right. Why do we have human rights? To protect citizens. What do we do when we harm human rights? The citizens are less safe. So and it's not even effective. And a good thing also, again, credits to Arjen Lubach. He introduced the term Tagerschfalbe, which is like when a politician gets criticized, they can be like, ah, no, don't criticize me. It's because of the terrorists. And I didn't no longer get away with that. So that's a good term. I would like to keep that in the thing. And yeah, I'm starting to repeat myself. But I want to include as many different kinds of groups of citizens to make this a broad thing so that everybody can find why they should care about this law. Aside from that, we also started a foundation which, at first, was just to get subsidies for the campaign. But after this, we're going to do direct action stuff against mass surveillance. That's the pitch. Oh, that's the end. And I'm looking forward to Q&A. Thank you very much. And so I will say first your question. Yeah, thanks a lot for your presentation, actually living in Netherlands at the moment. So I'm really happy to see such campaign organized in the Netherlands. I have a really small question. Did you support of other association or foundation like bits of freedom or other in the Netherlands but also outside Netherlands for what you've done? Yes, good question. I forgot to say that. Sorry. Yeah, we're getting really good support from bits of freedom now in the campaign and also Amnesty International is ready for battle and the Pirate Party. Yeah, so it's not like we are the core of this campaign. It's really a decentralized sort of thing. So everybody is just there to do their own thing. And I think that's really important because I realized I skipped a slide. But I really want you all to think that nobody else is going to do it unless you are going to do it. So please all speak up about this and talk about this referendum. Also like Amnesty and bits of freedom, but also individuals. And if you are not living in the Netherlands, it's also important for us because we need international support because the Netherlands is really fucking small. And when our Prime Minister sees that the big boys like Germany and France are talking about it, then they will have more incentive to actually do something with it. And at the same time, your governments might realize that they won't get away that easy with such mass surveillance law. So everybody please be as loud as possible about this thing. Yeah, I'll put that slide up one second. We have another question from the internet. Yes, thank you. The IRC wants to know, do you have hope that this surveillance thing will go away ever? Yes, I do have hope. Otherwise, I would just sit in my room and be depressed. But I think I'm above the optimist. So I do think it's possible, but I also was sitting and I think it's going to be really fucking hard. So it's our responsibility to keep fighting for that. Yeah, but I think it's possible. I mean, like 200 years ago, you wouldn't think that women would be allowed to have a life and that changed as well. So if they could do it, why can't we do it? The next question. I would like to add a small thing because a lot of people are talking about, no, no, we will only keep the part of the data. Peace question, not comment. But they say we will destroy irrelevant data, but the point of big data is there is no irrelevant data. So there is no need for destroying anything. So, no question. Sorry. Okay, you know what all what a question is. Okay, just wanted to make sure. The next question, there from a back. So I was wondering, you said if the referendum was ignored, then you would escalate. Do you like what forms of escalation are you thinking of? And do you think that's a good thing escalating? Or like, I wasn't sure in your opinion of this. Well, I hope you're not from the AFD, but no, escalation sounds like we're like, oh, wow. But I think I mean more in sort of escalation in the public debate because it's already having this momentum where everybody's starting to talk about it. And now that, because I believe people might realize that they care about this and they even have a voice about it, it will become a much stronger movement if they ignore it and if they don't, I believe. If that answers your question. Yeah, thank you. Okay, cool. The next question, number two. Hi, thanks for your work. I promise this is a question. So in terms of escalation, we see that once you get on the news, the satire, the John Stewards, the Daily Shows and that guy who gave you all your publicity, wouldn't be the best way to get mass understanding by the populace and backing you is to kind of have sustained episodes. Do you have a communication with the producers? Are you able to get a subsequent episode and kind of keep that fire burning? Well, I feel like it would be sort of unfair to just sort of keep, actually there was a group of people who started writing them like, oh yeah, you really need to talk about this episode and blah, blah, blah, but I think it's more of a result of all the hard work that we put into it that the episode was there. And also for, it wasn't like that solved everything. It was more because there was so much going on that then you couldn't really not talk about it. So I wouldn't want to sort of artificially enforce that. I just want to like do a lot of shit and then make sure that the right people respond. Yeah. Another question from the internet? Yes, I have a question from a Dutch citizen. Is there anything we should do except voting? Yeah, you need to, okay. The most important thing is that this discussion keeps singing around. So what we noticed with doing the signature thing, like, yes, you can put up posters and do like this. Yes, you can put up posters and do like the social media campaign and stuff, but actually you have such a big national discussion. It's really important that you actually talk to people that you know. So if, for instance, you have a community that people like to listen to for your teacher or I don't know, those people that stand in a church. Like please also reach out to your own communities, these groups of people, and also talk to your mom and to your dad about this because that way we can cover the whole 65 plus area. Next question? Yeah, first, thank you for the super leg talk. Also perfect follow-up question to the question before. I live in the Netherlands, but I'm not a Dutch citizen. What are ways for me to get involved and engaged with the campaign? Yeah. Just quick, do you have like a tech background or something? Okay, well, we kind of need also more because I mentioned the hacking of third parties. We need more people from our community actually to speak up about that as well because we have a lot of journalists and human rights activists and stuff, but not really the cyber people. Yeah, we're setting up like maybe if you follow like what we are going to do, we're going to like make flyers again and organize events that there can be discussions and stuff you could also like organize a discussion things. There's actually still subsidies you can ask for so you can get 5,000 euros for individual campaigns if you want or maybe that's already ended. But yeah, I don't know. Yeah, talking is really easy, but then also maybe more creative things like events and t-shirts and all that. And then we also make like things that we can hand out like flyers. Here's some flyers go stands in the street and hand out flyers and here's a poster, put up the poster. So yeah, you can email us and then we'll send you stuff. And oh yeah, somebody's setting up a mail server right now so please don't mail now. And we'll also put a key up somewhere. Next question, number three. Can you sign online or offline and what's the ratio between online and offline signers if there is online signage? Yeah, that was interesting because we put up a website that's basically our main thing and that's where people could sign online. But there were a lot of people who also, basically what we did, you have to hand in paper signatures, but you're allowed to collect them online. So we got all these signatures and then printed them on the forms. 400,000 signatures is a lot in paper. We drove them to the other sides of the country, handed them back in and they put it in the shredder. That was that. And then people could also send them themselves and I believe there were about 10,000 people who did that. Also, if you were living outside the Netherlands, you had to do so. And it was also like, it was a bit of a paradox because we had to collect a lot of data like your place of birth and your signatures and of course everybody was really weirded out by that. So we told those people like, yeah, we can't do anything else but if you don't trust us, please just write to the thing. But what do you mean by shredder? Are we gone or do they count? Yeah, so they scanned them all in and then it went into their system and then they shredded the thing. So yeah, a moment of silence for the trees. Next question is from the internet again. Thank you. As Lee Ferdena needs to be updated, for example, the 21st March is not mentioned there. Will the website be updated soon? Yes, but because we are moving, the website was basically there to do the whole signature campaign and it's not entirely clear of what kind of role it's going to play in the campaign. But yeah, I'll update it, it is a good thing that you say. Okay, next question. Okay, the 21st of March next year is also the date of the local community elections. Do you combine that activity together because you can organize local opponents and parties for that for your goal? Yeah, it's a good idea. We're still thinking about the options there also because there's like a lot of political parties that are going to do run a municipality campaign and slave that campaign. To be honest, I'm not sure yet on how that is going to shape. Together with local groups, of course. Yeah, it's a good idea. And by that you can mobilize the international students in a lot of Dutch cities, of course. We normally don't vote. Yeah, and then you can still have a role in it. Thank you for your question. Next question. Hi, Nina, thank you for your call and talk about this. Are there any people that might be able to do certain stuff like marketing, campaigning, have experience with these kind of things that you would be glad with that would mail you or help you out setting this up because you only have two months? Yeah, I just like set up the whole plan of the campaign and it's actually way more than I think we can handle. We need to... We need... There's a bunch of events that we are going to organize. So if people have spaces, can also be autonomous spaces where we can do sessions with people, that will be good. And we have a lot of campaign material again that needs to be spread out. So that would also be nice for people help there. I think those are the main things. Maybe specialists in marketing or technicians. I mean, you just told that there was a mail serve being set up right now. Maybe people are actually experienced enough here that would like to help. Is that possible? How? Well, I think... Okay, on the technical aspect, we're good because we got that down. But marketing things, it's mainly... I'm still rather naïve and so are my friends about how the system works, how government works. And I'm just like, hey, we have a good idea. Do what you want with it. And then there's all the house of cards kind of vibe that I don't understand. So I'd like to have discussions about that with experts. And for marketing, actually, we don't really... I don't really want a massive marketing company to get involved because it's very much a citizen's effort. However, feedback would be really good, like having sort of discussions about it because we don't know what the fuck we're doing, but we do have a sense of what we're doing and being able to go pa-pa-pa-pa with people, that would be good. So maybe I will be drinking away my nerves in the bar after this, just come to me. Thank you very, very much. We are running out of time, so this was unfortunately the last question. Another very, very warm applause for this incredible action.