 wherever you go. We are so glad that you are joining us today on Hope Today. I am here with Corey and Amy and it is always a joy from where we are joining us from from Pittsburgh, Alabama, Florida, Jacksonville. We are so glad that you are joining and spending time with us and we have a guest today. We're going to go deep into some things, Amy. Yeah, you know, we're going to talk about something that the church sometimes isn't super comfortable talking about and that is the subject and topic of sex. This is a book about the struggle with our desires and why so many committed followers of Jesus are still falling in their sexual lives and how we can change that. In other words, this book is about sex for every Christian who longs to be free from the sexual struggle. You know, guys, we're in a culture where we see the famous pastors, leaders falling under this sexual temptation. Sexual struggle is real and it is destroying lives, you know, the porn industry. The statistics in this book just about the porn industry is so shocking. It's so disturbing whether it's women reading the book or if it's men or women watching. It is so upsetting, but there is hope and there is freedom. Yes, absolutely. Because, you know, it's something that we have to be transparent about. Transparency is so healing and being able to have safe spaces and I think that's one thing where the church has kind of changed a lot of things where it's like, oh, shy away from that, you know, but you can't, it has to be a place of healing. I don't know anybody that goes into a hospital and they say, hey, where does it hurt? Somewhere in this vicinity, where exactly does it hurt? We have to be specific where we're struggling with and make sure that you're in a safe place where nobody, you know, even in ministry, if somebody uses what you go through as a topic to preach about, that's not someone and somewhere you want to be, but you want to be in a safe place, whether it's therapy or counseling or mentor groups and things like that, to be able to be honest and transparent about where you are because transparency is so healing. Yeah, and Corey, I love what you talked about, is just bringing up the idea of therapy. And I think a lot of times, especially in Christian culture and Christian community, we just want to pray it away. We just want to be like, oh, I'm good. I'm blessed and highly favored. There's all the hot messes going on in my relationship. There's so many things that are falling apart, but we're so full of shame that we don't want to talk about it. We're so full of brokenness that we don't want to expose the darkness that's happening within. And so today as we're going on this journey and we're talking about sex, we're talking about brokenness, we just encourage you that maybe if you are struggling, maybe you are that man or that woman that's like, yeah, I'm looking at porn or yeah, I'm like failing in my marriage and I've stepped out of a marriage is just, we want this to be like a safe space for you to just really hear the truth, the word of God, but also ways that you can practically walk in wholeness and healing because, Amy, truly, it's not, it's not what it is, the act itself. It's something that's deeper rooted within when this behavior manifests. Absolutely. You know, when it comes to difficult conversations within the church, the topics of sexual temptation and shame are some of the most often avoided. According to our next guest, she believes that shouldn't be the case. Dr. Lena Abunjamra is a pediatric ER doctor now practicing telemedicine and is the founder of Living with Power Ministries. She's also a Bible teacher and an author and in her new book, Don't Tell Anyone, You're Reading This, a Christian doctor's thoughts on sex, shame and other troublesome issues. Dr. Lena, welcome to Hope Today. Hey, thanks for having me on. It's great to be with you. I mean, even just talking about this, I'm just saying it's not super easy or comfortable to sit in this moment and to be talking about sex, shame. I don't, why is that in the Christian culture? You know, it's more so in the Christian culture. There's no question about it. Because I think the reality is that we're not, we're all talking about this in our workplaces and our lives, media, social media, you name it. Like this seems like we're all certainly all thinking about it. But there is something very still puritan in the church. And I think there's maybe some of the thought is that if you talk about it, you're delving into, you know, kind of going there in your mind when really that's not the case. I think people need to, what Corey was saying, really to step into the light. I think so much freedom happens. I mean, that's the premise of Christ is that you, he takes us out of darkness into the light. And yet many of us like Adam and Eve in the garden still are hiding from God, you know, and we fall into a place where we just think, man, if he sees us, if he finds out what we're doing, then we're out. We're not belong anymore. And the very opposite is true. Throughout scripture, we see God leaning into people and coming towards them, asking them, hey, where are you? Not out of condemnation, but out of a desire to save us. And of course, the entire premises that Christ did that for us. But until we are willing to step out of that darkness, we will be in bondage. And we're seeing that over and over again. In fact, that's what led me to write the book is that I got sick of hearing about leaders failing publicly. It hurts the church when you see that. It hurts the reputation of Christ when you see that. Wouldn't it be better if we came into the light out of our own volition before we're found out in a place where we can get help and we can get freedom? That's, I think, what the book is hoping to do is to help people see that you're not alone in your struggle. You're very open and honest in this book. I mean, did your mom read this book? Are you? I guess not yet. I mean, not yet. And I'm telling you, I don't know. I'm trying to think about, she even said at one point, I don't think I'm going to read this one. But I think she will because honestly, it's a biblical book. That was sort of a fear I had. Processes of books coming together are always interesting. And this is not a book I wanted to write. I honestly would have never stepped there. I've written about singleness. I've talked about physical struggles, things like that in code language, as we do in the Christian life. And people have read between the lines, but I don't feel it's enough in 2023. It may have been enough back in 1960 or 70 or 80. But we're not in that era. We're in an era where everything is flaunted in our face as humans, especially in the West, in a way that I think is shocking, especially in the last 10 years. You can't hide from sexual content anymore. It's in your homes. It's on your phones. We hear statistics. As you said, I think the first exposure to pornography is 11 is the average age that a child is first exposed to porn. 94% of kids have seen porn porn by age 14. That should make us just absolutely shocked. I mean, it's beyond acceptable. And that's not outside of the church. This is everywhere. And so we have a crisis. It's there. And so it got to a point where as I saw the ramifications of it in our Christian culture, it stopped mattering if my mom will read it and be uncomfortable, which by the way, I think she will be very comfortable because someone yesterday, you know, I had this happen a few days ago, someone who follows our ministry emailed me and said, I don't think I'm going to get this one. I'm sitting this one out. She's read all my other books. And I said, just for my insight, tell me why. And she said, you know, I just don't know if I want to hear about all of your, you know, sexual failure and experiences and, and, you know, all the stuff that one can imagine a single who's a virgin still goes through. And I said to her, well, you may be surprised. And I didn't see anything else. I was, you know, sort of took it in. Yesterday, she posted that she emailed me and said, I changed my mind and I bought it. And I was curious, said, okay, good for you. You don't want to make too much. I was like, I wondered what would happen. And by the evening, she said she'd already read it and adores it, like says this book is, she says it's not at all about sex. It's about freedom. And it's about forgiveness. And it's about intimacy with God. And I think that's it because we think we need to be free from sexual sin when what really the journey is to deeper intimacy with God. Our problem is not sex. Our problem is our hearts are lonely. We don't feel we belong. We're constantly trying to prove our worth to others. And we think we're going to get some satisfaction by some physical release for a few seconds. And at the end of the day, anyone who's gone down that path looks back and says, man, that did not satisfy me. And it's because we're created for more. Bringing straight up heat, Dr. Lena. Okay, what do you say to the believer that says, I don't have a problem with sexual sin and there's excuses and there's lies. But then there's this behavior. You know, a lot of women just left a comment on Instagram that sort of said that she said I started reading this book thinking this book isn't for me. She was reading it like research for her kids, for her friends that need it, right? And she says at the end of every chapter, I'm shaking my head going, wow, this is for me. And I think it's because again, it's so easy for us to pigeonhole the conversation as this is for the Christian who's having, you know, sexual struggles, sitting in a dark room somewhere watching things they shouldn't watch thinking. It's not. It's about addiction. It's what is addiction about? It's about leaning into going to what makes us feel good in our moment of pain. It could be food. It could be sex. It could be some people workaholics, some people over exercise. Now, you know, sex is the dirty secret that we don't want to talk about in public. But that substituting the Lord and what he ought to be in our life for whatever feels good in the moment, that is, that is applicable for every Christian that is struggling with crucifying the flesh. I like to say this, if crucifying the flesh was easy, everybody would be doing it. But it's not easy. It's a daily practice. There's not a one pill fix all. That's what we want the doctor to give us. Like, here's a pill. It'll be healthy from now till the rest of your life. It doesn't work this way. The Christian walk is a walk of daily dependence, daily leaning on a God who says, I am your grace sufficient for you in your weakness. And for some of us, that weakness remains day after day after day. But the good news is God's grace is in it with us every single day of our lives. Wow. This, this, this conversation is incredible. So I want to go back to what you were saying about intimacy, Dr. Lena. When you talked about, it's not a sex issue. It's an intimacy issue. So, so say, for instance, you have somebody that are addicted to pornography, that's their getaway that helps them feel wanted or loved. How does that person transition from that dependency on that to walking into an intimate space with God where he, you know, he or she feels he's not going to want me because of what I've done? How do you walk them through getting from that place to intimacy? You know, I'm an ER doctor. I'm not a therapist. I was prefaced by saying that. So obviously, ER doctors are really good at identifying problems and pointing you in the right direction. And the dirty work is at the hand of somebody else usually. But I wouldn't say this, that the first step, and I think so much of this book aims at telling people, step into the light. Tell your story. Tell your story. That's the first thing. Most people, a lot of people who write about porn specifically and shame, talk about the fact that we're not ashamed because we look at porn. We look at porn because we're ashamed. So you can't really get healing until you get to the why, which is why I wrote the book with small chapters each hitting up one of the reasons why we turn to sexual struggle, addiction, whatever you want to call it, that thing that makes us feel good in the moment. And it could be porn for some people. It could be an affair for others. It could be binging on Netflix on things you shouldn't be looking at as followers of Christ. I mean, you name it. I mean, there's a lot of ways that we find comfort. And so I think as you tell your story to someone, for me, it took a therapist. Sydney, you mentioned that earlier. I had had, I could not find a safe place in the church. Interestingly, I wrote this book at the tail of leaving a mega church back in 2013 and writing a book on my own journey in that I wrote fractured faith. I was in a very hurt, hurting place after that. I left because of spiritual abuse in the church. Eventually, the pastor was disqualified. It took six years for that to happen. So I walked a very, very lonely road for a while as a Christian who had given her life to ministry and to bivocational work. So I felt very lonely in that season. I left not because I had done anything wrong, but because I saw something that was wrong and decided to step away. But I did not see immediate vindication. Those years were hard years. Now we refer to that season as a deconstructed season. Many people who fall into sexual sins or switching their minds on sexual issues are deconstructed Christians, which is so common now. We hear this. I mean, look at many of the ex-leaders. Joshua Harris is an easy example of someone who led the purity culture and now is deconstructed. And there are a lot of things that as you study their stories, differing views on sexuality that they had when they were in the church. It's very interesting to observe sort of that faith struggle relationship with the church and the sexual struggle. And so for me, it took a therapist because it was a safe place. I knew that because of the job description, she couldn't tell anybody, there's confidentiality. And even with that, it took me a good year before I started hinting at some of the struggle. And maybe a couple of years before more walls were broken down, I needed to build trust. And as I was able to get that, and a lot of that work for the year or two was to get into the why, what drives me to find solace in a certain behavior, in a certain, you know, place of comfort when I'm not trusting God enough to go to him. And so it's a long work. It's not a short work. And it's a work that demands intentionality, attention and time. Those are commodities that we in our American culture don't have, don't want. We love to be busy. We love to get things on Amazon. The second after I ordered, I'm in Chicago, I get things the same day. I'll pay $2 extra to get it that afternoon. The Christian walk is not a McDonald's drive-through. It's a long haul, but it's because it's meant to be a walk that increases our intimacy with the Father through His Son, Jesus Christ. And that takes time and silence and solitude, things that we need to go back to learning. Dr. Lean, I love like how you're just talking about going into that safe space with your therapist and just certain things that you have to do the deep internal work. And I'm sure is that you were sitting across from your therapist and talking. There are certain things that you realize how actually what the sexual, like what happens is what it does to your mind, what it does to your body. Can you talk to us about the physical things that happen to our bodies and also our minds that when we deviate into these sexual patterns that go against what God is the original design for intimacy? I think this is exactly, there's something that I don't know physiologically, but I can tell you there's a brain fog that takes over when you're in it. Like it's like jumping in a pool of smoke, let's say. And I think the minute you go down a path, whether it's through what we watch, I think there's so much content. I mean, it's easy to pick on porn. Like when people watch porn, you know, the reading material, a lot of erotica, you know, I flirt with a lot of that. That's my area of escape. Binging. I mean, there's almost not a show where you can binge on that is heavy with some sexual content. There's a few exceptions to that. You know, a lot of the adventure stuff that shooting and whatnot, but sexual content is rampant. And so however you get your fix, I do agree. I think that there is a fog that happens when you step into that. That's why when people binge, you don't do it over a week. You do it in a 24-hour period. And if you're not binging, you look at the person, I have a friend who's married and her husband started watching a show, a respectable show, something, you know, about the presidential stuff, whatever. But the binging phenomenon is that six hours later, that spouse is still watching, right? And the wife is going, what are you doing? Like, you've got kids, you've got responsibilities. Why are you still watching this? And he's like, nothing wrong with that. But the fog takes over. And imagine now the fog when you're in the porn world. And I think things that you thought were horrible become gray. Things that you think I'd never do that. This is why I think a lot of people who watch porn regularly start flirting with same sex attraction. And then you wonder, how can a person have an attraction towards a minor? Well, one thing leads to the other leads to the other. It becomes a fog. And so I think there's that the minute you step out and tell your story, it's almost like a light that's shown you, where was I? Why am I in this state of craziness? I would never do this. Physiologically, there is an addictive pattern, this adrenaline, that orgasmic feeling that I think comes from the repercussion of spending time in that that I think people chase. That's why you cannot fix it by just saying, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. There has to be on the other side of the balance of feeding of that joy that let's call it orgasmic state. And while you might not think of your walk with the Lord as that, think of me, with me, as those meetings you go to a church, those conferences you go to, and there's a time in worship where you're so enthralled with the presence of God and who he is, you feel, you've asked his forgiveness, you're in this space of worship and something happens in your soul that is so, it happens to me on a regular basis where I'm so joyful to be in God's presence that I think I want to be here for a while until we learn to integrate that type of presence of God in our lives daily. And it's not impossible. It doesn't take some great, it is our right in Christ. That is what God has saved us. That was the early church. They walked in ecstasy, so to speak, because they weren't worried about getting on Netflix and binging because they were so focused on the person of Christ. That's what we need to replace the sin habits to fog with in order to find the freedom that we long for and is ours in Christ. Dr. Alina, I love your perspective and wisdom concerning this topic. My husband and I, we buried a man who told us before he died, God gave me porn for my enjoyment, a Christian man, and he died out of his mind. He was literally out of his mind. Talk about a fog taking over. Some of the statistics, 68% of churchgoing men, 50% of pastors regularly view porn, 76% of Christians, 18 to 24, actively and regularly spend time searching porn sites, and only 13% of Christian women say they've never watched porn. Where is the hope? What is the encouragement that you would have? Sin has been a lifelong problem since Adam and Eve ate the fruit in the garden. So we know there's a solution. This is not complicated, and we see it most dramatically, I think, in the gospel, what not really, I would say in the lives of people in the Book of Acts and on, in that post-resurrection era, there is something powerful that happened to the disciples. Even while Jesus was alive, they still didn't completely get it. It was when they saw the resurrected Jesus that they found hope. So I think if we could just become resurrected people, too many Christians were crucifixion people. We believe Jesus died for us and somehow we're still living in the tomb, but we've been called to step out of the tomb to live like resurrected people. And so I think those statistics as damning as they are and as depressing as they can be are the reason I wrote this book, because I believe in my entire being, as I've experienced freedom and continue to daily lean on the Lord, that there is a better way. And if we don't start talking about it, and if we don't start bringing sin into the light, I think when we pray for revival, this country, we constantly say that, we're praying for revival, we're praying for revival. You want revival? It starts right here. It starts when we say, I am sick of this. And it has to first be a decision of the mind of saying, I will not, like that man you described who died and said, God help us from that. And the Spirit of God is in us to convict us, to change us, even as I'm even talking here now, I'm sure there are people who are watching this show and going, man, I wish I could get out of this. That's the person. The Spirit of God might be handing you, get out of prison free. And his name is Jesus. Get the book. I'm telling you, you will find encouragement. You're not alone. Tell the story of what's going on in your life first to someone you trust, and then start sharing it. The more you tell of the victory, that is the power of our testimony. God will continue to show up in your life and give you that freedom that is yours. Wow. What a book. What a conversation. Don't tell anyone you're reading this. Thank you so much, Dr. Lena, for your wisdom, your input, a Christian doctor's thoughts on sex, shame, and other troublesome issues. When we return in 60 seconds, we're going to break down a scripture that talks about temptation and how we can endure it and when it comes our way. Stay with us. Cornerstone television exists because of the faithful support of our partners. Thanks to you, we get to proclaim the good news of Jesus, both locally and around the world. All this month, as our way of saying thanks, we are offering this beautiful and inspirational 16-month calendar for your best gift to CTVN. This special Israel calendar 75th anniversary edition celebrates 75 years of modern Israel as a nation. Each month, you'll enjoy a new and beautiful feature of the Holy Land. You'll be blessed to see places in the Bible come alive. This 16-month calendar runs from September 2023 to December 2024 and has plenty of space for writing your daily activities. Request the special Israel calendar 75th anniversary edition as our thank you gift when you give to CTVN today. To give, call 888-665-4483 or go to ctvn.org slash donate. Hope happens here. We're glad you're joining us for hope today and we're going to dive into that scripture talking about temptation in just a moment, but we do want to encourage you. If you're watching us, you've been watching us for a while, you want to get more connected to hope today in Cornerstone Television Network. Why don't you give us a call at 888-665-4483 and request the newsletter because we'd love to get connected with you. All right, Amy and Cori, I know there's so much that in that conversation that we need to unpack. I know there's things that are churning our spirit. Cori, I know there's a scripture. Tell us your thoughts. Let's dig in. Absolutely. Listen, today's scripture is coming from 1 Corinthians chapter 10 verse 13 and it says, the temptations in your life are no different from what others experience. And God is faithful. He will not allow the temptation to be more than you can stand. And when you are tempted, He will show you a way out so that you can endure. Now, I know one thing about the enemy is when there's a conversation that happens like this. He's going to try to be like that bird and scripture Jesus talks about when the seed is dropping. Here come the birds trying to eat it up immediately. So that fear will start to try to come in, that shame starts to try to come in. But right now, I just believe that the Holy Spirit is resting upon you right now and you could see the way out because I know a lot of people cannot see the way out. Dr. Lina talked about that fog that the mind is in, especially if you're struggling with pornography or struggling with some type of sexual relationship or anything like that, you can't really see the right from the wrong. It just gets meshed together and you start to feel like I don't really know how I got here and I don't know how to get out. But the scripture in this conversation creates a doorway of light that opens up and says there's the way running that way. And so one thing about that is transparency. Transparency in confession to safe areas helps us ventilate the heart. Just like when it's just muggy in a household and it's filled with a smell, you open up the windows and that ventilation, that air, the breath of God blows throughout the heart and allows us to breathe again from that suffocating place that sin creates. And so I'm telling you, just like the scripture, it says there is no temptation that is not known to God, that is not known to man, of course not known to God as well. But we are together in this and please understand that shame will make you feel like you're the only one that's dealing with what you're dealing with and that is a lie from the enemy. You are not alone. We are all walking through this process in our life. We are all walking through it. And one thing is take it day by day. Give yourself grace. Give yourself forgiveness because that's one of the biggest things that I know I've struggled with in my life was unforgiveness within myself. And that will cripple you from being able to accept the love that is already for us. You know, I just think about the scripture, God is faithful and he will make a way out. So I'm thinking, okay, if God is faithful and he was, he will make a way out when temptation comes, I better listen to the voice of the Lord. I better listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit when he says, turn that off. Don't be, it's like, who are you with and where are you at? It's pretty simple. So I believe that the potential in every believer is to hear the voice of God, to hear the shepherd's voice. He is faithful and he will make a way out. He's not, he's not like running away from these issues. He's with us in the issues. And also, I just think there has to be at some point in our Christian life where there is an awe of God, where there's like a fear of the Lord, that if I, if I don't listen to him, this could take me down a path that I might not ever be able to read. Now, God redeems, but it could cost you years. So I say today, let's stop, let's repent, let's get that fear of the Lord, let's listen to his voice. When that temptation comes because it will, whatever that is in your life, say, Holy Spirit, help me find a way out. Give me, give me the wisdom to get out of this. And then I believe, Sidney, that you'll find real freedom. You know, as we've been talking, having this conversation, the Holy Spirit is just dropping the scripture in my spirit that even if I make my bed in hell, you are there. That is something that I remember. I was going, I'm just going to say this really briefly and I didn't want to even talk about this, but the God was just putting in my spirit. There was a time I was at Atlantic City. I was at a club one night. There was a guy and I remember my friends went somewhere else and there was a room and I remember just in that moment, I could have stayed the night in that room, but God dropped that in my spirit that if you make your bed in hell, I am there, but I knew I had to go. And I did not stay in that room. That guy was really mad because he thought he was going to have a good night. I was like, nah, I got to go. God is speaking. So we just want to encourage you with this, that, you know, all of us have been through things, all of us have walked through things. And just like Corey was saying, like, shut the light on the chain. There's a way out, but the first thing is we have to confess it. We have to recognize there's an issue and a problem and we know that the Holy Spirit will move in and give us the steps that we need to be free. We declare that over you. Be free today in Jesus. On tomorrow's Hope Today, helping Christians to defend their faith when challenging conversations arise. Speaker and author Gregory Cokall provides a step-by-step game plan to help you better engage in difficult conversations with those who challenge your beliefs. That's tomorrow on Hope Today. Cornerstone Television wishes to thank all our faithful viewers, whose consistent prayers and financial support have made this program possible.