 Hello and welcome to our presentation on making your cash work harder with FIG. My name is Graeme Colley and I'm the Executive Manager Technical and High Wealth at Super Concepts. Today we have Liz Moran, Director of Education and Research at FIG and Emma Jenkins also from FIG who is the Director of Managed Accounts to tell us about direct investments in bonds and the managed investment portfolio service offered by FIG. Then to finish up, I'll walk you through the client interface with Super Concepts website and FIG. Now just a bit of housekeeping, on the right hand side of your screen there's an orange arrow there and if you expand that it'll open up of course and about half way down there's a space there that you can put in your questions. Now what we'll do with the questions today is we'll leave them to the end to answer but during the session I'm sure you'll have something that will twig your memory and you might want to ask a question so jot it down there. Now the main reason for having a self-managed superannuation fund is direct access to investment markets that it brings. Now directly investing in bonds is one of those ways of investing for self-managed funds can provide a number of advantages for trustees. I'll hand it over now to Liz to let us know about investing directly into bonds. Thanks so much Graeme, really good to work with you again and for everyone on the line to join us, thanks very much. We're delighted to be working with Super Concepts and to be available on your platform now, Direct Bonds, either a Direct Bond portfolio or our special bond IMA and I'm going to talk you through this morning a little bit about how bonds work. You'll see our first slide up there is actually our disclaimer so if you come to FIG and would like us to build your portfolio or for someone to manage your portfolio for you, we will give you a whole lot of tools and education and research but ultimately it's up to you whether you decide to go ahead or not. Particularly with a do-it-yourself portfolio we might suggest five or ten bonds, there might be some companies there that you may not want to invest in. You would say to us well I don't like that quantist bond and then we would work to find something else for you. I guess really the bond market is a very big global market and we're talking the wholesale over the counter market not the assets listed market but I'll explain a little bit more as we go on. So to the first slide here, just the introduction which Graeme's done I'm going to be talking about the Direct Bonds and really how bonds work and why they're good to be in your portfolio. And then Emma will talk about our bond IMA which we're called MIPS. It stands for Managed Income Portfolio Service. And then finally Graeme's going to give you a quick demo on how the figure application works in the super concepts dashboard and then we're going to finish with some questions. So let's get the ball rolling. Why would you invest in bonds? I think for me the primary reason is that they're so reliable. You know when your cash flows are going to come through into your account and you know that you can expect your capital to be returned to your maturity. So it's that sort of reliability in the constancy of bonds which is particularly attractive to people in retirement or near retirement looking to replace that cash flow from when they were working and they had an income. But there are lots of other reasons that you invest in bonds. I think one of the main ones that we're certainly coming across now is that people are fed up with low term deposit rates and they want higher rates of returns and bonds will deliver that. A low risk defensive portfolio you would expect to earn one to two percent more than term deposits right throughout the economic cycle. So no matter where we are, sort of one to two percent. So at the moment that would translate sort of to four to six percent somewhere around there that you could expect to have a portfolio of bonds. Quite a few other reasons you would have bonds as well. The huge range of bonds means that you can really target your risk and return level. So you want a low risk portfolio, we can certainly do that for you. But there are high response that will deliver surprisingly high returns as well. And there I'm talking about some high yield non-investment grade. Some of you may or may not know what that means. Bonds but sort of six to ten percent range of returns. A few other things, they're tradable, they're defensive. And it's that reliability really that is the main function. Now of course the other reason is returns. And what you may not know is that over the last ten years, the Osbond index which tracks corporate bonds has outperformed the ASX or Ordinary's index. So this is what that graph shows. The blue line's the Osbond index and the yellow line is the all-Ordinary's. So it's quite good this slide in that you see the bond line is gently upward sloping, no surprises, very consistent which is exactly what this asset class is. Whereas with the shares you can see quite a lot more volatility there. They go up and down, they move up and down. And this is why at times people you might hear about bonds called the sleep at night asset class. They give you a lot of certainty and a lot of comfort around your future capital and income. So I just wanted to talk a little bit about portfolios and structuring portfolios and time of life. So this is really like a time of life diagram if you like. Can you see we've got 21 years there or 23 years, but you're pardoned. So that's sort of the age or the time now people might spend at school and higher education. And then they start working and we estimate around about a 35-year working life. So especially when people are young, we think they should allocate high proportions to high growth assets such as shares and property and have a lower allocation to fixed income, which does include deposits and bonds. So around about 30% to fixed income and about 70% to the higher risk, higher growth asset classes. But as people age and they hit this period called peak wealth, you'll see it's a green bar there. So that's about eight years before retirement. We think then that people should be starting to transition and make their portfolios more defensive because of course you don't have time to recoup losses. You don't have a 30-year working life ahead of you. You're building that nest egg so that you can rely on it and live well in retirement, live the way that you want to. So we think about that time you should be starting to think more defensively and increasing your allocation to defensive assets being deposits and bonds. So about a 50% allocation there. And then you'll see you hit retirement. Now, that's the big unknown, isn't it? How long we're going to live? How long we have to make that money last for? You know, some people will have short retirements. Others might have a 20-year, 25-year time span. But some might have as much as 35 years in retirement. So we really think you don't want to risk your capital at that point and want it to be fairly defensive and to make it last. So we actually suggest an increased allocation there to cash and bonds of 70% just to make sure that you see the distance. So what are corporate bonds? A corporate bond is just a loan. You lend your money to a company. And in return, they agree to pay you interest on a set date and they agree to return your capital at a set date. So the legal obligation nature of a bond is what gives us a lot of comfort. And you can see there on the slide quite a lot of logos. So all those companies issue bonds and many more. But you'll see there's some companies there, Morgan Stanley and General Electric, a company I really like, and AXA and insurance, French Insurer. They all issue bonds in Australian dollars. So fantastic for diversification because you can access these international companies, not listed on the ASX, by investing in their Australian dollar denominated bonds. So it really highlights just how big the market is. And in Australia, roughly the bond market is double the size of the share market. And that is true globally as well. So the bond market is a very big market and the ASX listed market is a small component of that. The much larger component is the wholesale over the counter market. And that's really what we're talking about today. A couple of other things I just want to mention. There was a study a few years ago by the OECD on pension fund asset allocation. And they looked at 29 countries, all their asset allocation from all the big pension funds. And Australia had the lowest allocation to bonds of about 9%. But the average across all those countries was about 52%. So you can see how under allocated, most Australian investors are into bonds. Really important. And part of that is just because you may not know about the asset class or have been, you know, know how to access it. But the other part of that is we are just underdeveloped. So and SMSFs as a part of that have even a much lower allocation of about 1% to bonds. So how do bonds differ from shares? As I mentioned there, that legal obligation and the companies have to pay you interest and they have to pay you capital. So you can think of yourself as the banker, you're lending them the money. And that's a really good way to think about it. Whereas with a share, you're an owner. So you're investing, hoping that the company will grow. The dividend will grow and the share price will grow. But there's no guarantee that either of those things will happen. And you would be aware of course of a couple of companies recently having to cut their dividends. BHP cut by a massive amount, I think it was about 75%. ANZ also cut. So there isn't that guarantee of income. Whereas with bonds, they're pretty well is as if that company that's issued the bond continues to survive, you're going to get your income and you'll know what that'll be. So quite a big difference. Now if you're interested in bonds, what I say one of the key drivers is, is that is the company going to survive? Is what's the survivability of the company? So if the company is going to survive for the five years that you hold the bond, you'd be a pretty comfortable investor in that company. Whereas the key driver with shares I think is really growth. So you're comparing survivability versus growth. I think survivability is an easier metric. And of course bonds have that or they are that legal obligation. So a few things you might not know about the bond market. The Australian market is worth, we estimate $1.2 trillion, it's a huge market. And the largest issuer is the Commonwealth government. They issue about $410 billion, quite large. All the states and territories also issue bonds. And of course corporations issue bonds. And that's really where we focus on here at FIG, the corporate bonds. And there's about, I think there's about $350 billion of corporate bonds out there. So one of the other things about bonds you may not know about is that they're tradable. So once they're first issued, people buy at first issue, and then they start to trade. So there's buyers and sellers. So you don't have to worry about a long-term maturity with a bond because you can sell it. The other thing too, because they trade, much like shares and the prices will go up and down, you can make higher than expected returns. So we might quote you a 5% return on a bond. But if for whatever reason the price goes up, you might have some capital gain as well as that 5% return. So there is the opportunity for higher returns. Of course there is also the opportunity for loss. And that is that the price goes down just as they go up. They can come down from when you first bought it. And the second way is that the company goes into default. So they can't pay their creditors anymore, which is a very, very unusual event in Australia and very low risk still. But important for me to mention, that is one of the key risks. So with this wholesale over-the-counter market, what we've done is take traditional parcel sizes of bonds, which were $500,000, really not available to the likes of you and I, and break them down so that you can now access bonds in $10,000 parcels. And it's a minimum of $50,000 upfront if you want a direct bond portfolio through FIG. There's quite a few misconceptions out there and there's a lot of noise at the moment about don't buy bonds now, it's not a good time. There's the bond route and bonds are crashing. So what a lot of those commentators are talking about are US government bonds. So in the US, we have new President Trump who's gonna spend a lot of money and there's an expectation that interest rates and inflation will rise. Of course, he hasn't got any of his policies through Parliament yet, but they're hopeful that he will and that will happen. So very low yielding government bonds and some of those bonds are yielding close to 0% or quarter of a percent or 1%. With that expectation of higher interest rates, they're expecting that the prices of those bonds will come down. So not a good time to buy US government bonds. I can confidently say none of our clients are in US government bonds. We're dealing with corporate bonds and it's a different market, but those commentators are talking about fixed rate bonds and that's the very first type of bond on my list here. So fixed rate bonds, and I'm just gonna go back one step, pretty well all bonds are issued with $100 face value. And fixed rate bonds have a fixed rate of interest that cannot change throughout the life of the bond. So some years ago, Stockwell, no, not Stockwell, Stockland, Beggy Pardon, Stockland issued a bond, a fixed rate bond that paid 8.25%. But you can imagine it as interest rates have come down and that bonds become very attractive because that cash flow will be paid regardless. And so the price of that bond has risen up to about $120 now. So you can see the price is adjusted because of the lower interest rates on offer. So if interest rates start to reverse and go back up, the price of that bond will come down. But that's the beauty of those bonds. They're very protective in a low interest or low interest rate environment. And they give you absolute certainty of return. The second type of bond is a floating rate bond. And just as the name suggests, the interest pay to you goes up and down throughout the economic cycle. And Emma actually refers to floating rate bonds as three month term deposits. So every three months, you get a new interest rate for the coming three month period. So these bonds are particularly attractive if you're thinking interest rates are going higher. And the third type of bond is an inflation link bond. And these have a sort of a special place in people's portfolio. Those I think particularly in retirement because inflation is one of those big risks that, it's been a while since we've seen 10% annual inflation rates, but they have been here and they completely destroy value. Especially if you have a fixed amount in retirement, I think it's very important to protect against inflation. So this next slide, I think is actually the most important of the whole presentation. If you understand the issue, you're gonna understand bonds and how they work. So what it shows is a simplified bank capital structure. And it's the priority of payments and liquidation. So if a bank goes belly up, who gets paid out first? If you're at the top of this ladder, you get paid out first and you have to be paid out entirely before the next steps paid out and so on and so on. So as you move down that structure, you're taking on more risk. And because you're taking on more risk, you expect higher returns. The structure also works in reverse so that if as the banks being wound up, there's losses, the level at the bottom, the lowest level, the shareholders take the first loss. So they wear the first loss position. They have to be wiped out entirely before the hybrid owners lose any money and so on. So I'll just very quickly describe to you the sort of terms and conditions. The top covered or seen secured bonds have specific security. So in the case of the banks, it's a 8% of their mortgage loan pool. Very, very low risk here. Typically issued for five years, these bonds can be fixed or floating, but they are actually have the same sort of credit risk as the Commonwealth government. So really low risk investment. Then we have term deposits where you know your interest rate again and you also know the maturity date, very low risk. Not, there's no specific security within a bank for term deposits, but there is that government guarantee. Then we have senior secured bonds and that's sort of the most common level in the capital structure where bonds are issued. Again, typically five years can be fixed or floating. You know your interest rate and you know when you're gonna get repay. The fixed rate bonds pay half yearly interest and the floating rate ones pay quarterly. And then we move down to subordinated bonds and their junior, you can see they're a level lower in the structure and they have what's known as a call date after five years. So typically first call after five years when the issuer of the bond can repay you but they're not obliged to and then there's a final maturity date after about 10 years. So because there's that possibility of a longer term to maturity, you're taking on more risk and so you expect higher returns. Then we jump down to hybrids which are a beast unto themselves. I read many of these prospectuses. If you've got them, please get the prospectus and read it. They're all different. Even two recent hybrids by ANZ are very different in their clauses. So hybrids have call dates. If the call dates aren't met, they then become perpetual which means there is no maturity date. And typically when that happens the price of hybrids falls are quite a lot. Hybrids also have this term called non-cumulative. They're non-cumulative, which means the banks don't have to pay you interest or the distribution. They can forgo it entirely. They never have to make it up to you. So quite different to bonds where the companies must pay you interest. There's a few other clauses there. I'm not gonna dwell on them today. Of course the final one is shares where there is no guarantee of income and there is no maturity date. You have to sell and take the price at maturity. So that really highlights some of the key differences between bonds and shares. Bonds are a lot of risk in the same company. They are that legal obligation and you do have a lot of certainty compared to if you're investing in the shares. So I wanted to show you what happened here in during the GFC. So I've got my glass half full cap on looking at the worst possible outcome. And what we did, we invested $100 in the major bank senior bonds and they all trade very close together so it's easy for us to do that. Then $100 in the CBA Perl 3 and that's the blue, the mid blue line on the graph. And then finally $100 in the shares of CBA. So we've added back all the interest payments and we've also added back franking on the shares. So you can see about the time the GFC hit. The hybrids would have lost, if you're a fourth seller you would have lost about 30% of your capital. But you see then the hybrids recover. Interestingly they never actually meet the bond in terms of total return. So hybrids are much like bonds in that they're only gonna pay you $100 at maturity but they do take on a lot of that downside risk of the shares and this is sort of what this graph shows. The other thing there is the shares. So you can see if you're a fourth seller during the GFC you would have lost about 55% of your capital. Really nasty. Then the shares recover but it takes about five years for the shares to outperform the bond. And to my mind that's the sort of time you need to be thinking if there's another major GFC type event you need to be thinking five years until the market recovers. And in fact I think it's gonna be longer if it happens again because the central banks don't have that ammunition of cutting rates to try and stimulate again. I think it'd be longer, longer term. And I just wanna make one final point on this graph. I've been an analyst for many years and looked at many companies globally and if I look at the ASX 200 to my mind the Commonwealth Bank is the lowest risk company there. So this is what happened to the lowest risk company. We've seen some of the mining companies and mining services companies go through quite harsh cycles just recently. I think you've just gotta keep that in mind. This is the lowest risk company and it's quite a harsh outcome. So I wanted to show you another graph. This isn't my graph and it's a graph from UBS. So the big Swiss bank. So for many years they tracked bond performance in Australia and they had what is known as the UBS composite bond index. But what happened a few years ago is they sold that into C2 Bloomberg and so the data's no longer available. But I wanted to show you this graph because it's 24 years. So it's comparing the bond market again to the ASX accumulation index. And it just gives you that sort of that longer term view and you see the pale blue line there is the UBS composite bond index. Again, gently upward sloping, not many surprises. Interestingly outperforms the shares. You can see it outperforms for quite a number of years. That was because there was a high inflationary point through there and governments issue inflation link bonds and those inflation link bonds and high paying government bonds really outperformed over that period. But if you follow the share line it gets that beautiful big spike which is why we all invest in shares. You know, myself and all my colleagues at FIG we all have shares. So you see you get that lovely spike but then it goes down and then it's up and down, up and down, up and down and it finally finishes up. So over the sort of the 24 year period of this graph the shares return about 10.5% which is exactly what my university lecturer told me years ago, 10.5% from shares. What's surprising though is that the bonds return 9.7% over the same period. And you know if you think about the difference in risk and the difference in certainty, bonds surprisingly high return and really not that much different to the shares. So if you're thinking about bonds what's the best way to include them? We think investing direct is best and I won't go into that today but you have control then. You know what you're invested in. You're not invested in government bonds which a lot of managed funds and exchange traded funds do invest heavily in government bonds. But there are two ways here at FIG you can have a direct bond portfolio where you have total control. You decide what companies are appropriate for you and we help you do it. There's a lot of expertise here. We have a lot of education and research to help but you do need to invest quite a bit of time yourself in getting to understand the asset class a little bit better and just reading our research reports on the many bonds that are available. You can also buy foreign currency bonds so in US dollars or sterling or yen. So if you had that sort of need or want to hedge or you had a US dollar account sitting there earning next to no percent that might be best for you. But the other program or the other way is an individually managed account and this is a new service we started providing this year and it's for wholesale owning clients. There's a number of different programs four different programs but the returns to date have been really impressive just in the six months and hats off to our portfolio, our experienced portfolio manager who's had many years doing in that role. But I'm going to hand over to Emma Jenkins now who's going to talk you more through that individually managed account. I think it's something really worth considering. Great, thank you Liz. Liz has done a great job of talking about the benefits of bonds so that makes my job much easier. We just talk about the benefits of overlaying a manager. So what we're doing with an IMA is we're taking a direct bond portfolio which means all the bonds are held in your name so it's still very transparent and you can access your coupons and we're overlaying a professional management team. So that team makes all the decisions on your portfolio which makes it convenient and simple for you to have a diverse bond portfolio and access that important income stream. The bond markets, there's a lot to know about managing a bond portfolio. There's interest rate exposures, how much fixed rate bonds, how much floating rate bonds, views on inflation and that professional team does that all for you. So they manage all the company's company exposure in your portfolio and they think about what is the appropriate interest rate exposure through the cycle. So really it gives you peace of mind that someone is managing your portfolio at all times. It's really important also to know there's real scale benefits. So the bond market is still very much an institutional market and so what MIPS can do, which is the IMA, our Managing Come Portfolio Service, it can aggregate all the smaller parcels across individuals' holdings and bring them together to get better pricing in scale for investors and pass that through and what that equates to better returns for you, the investor. The active management I think is important wherever you are in the economic cycle but certainly with very low interest rates. The portfolio management team is both managing your portfolio for risk but they're also looking for opportunities and in this institutional bond market we often see those in new issues or what we call primary issues and the portfolio management team may have a day or two to decide whether they go into your portfolio and that's something that they're able to assess, get access to the new deal and then put it in if they think it's appropriate and that's something you wouldn't be able to access directly yourself, you may not have time or the access or be able to get the volume and scale that they can because they act on your behalf. I think it's really important to understand who's managing your money, who the team are behind MIPS. Kieran Quain is the head portfolio manager, he heads up MIPS. He has been in the fixed income markets for over 30 years and he's responsible for all the decisions around managing all the portfolios under the four programs. He's been at Fig for over seven years and he's got a lot of experience in that high yield market and he's been formerly the head of risk and the head of syndicate for those high yield deals. Before that he was at AMP, one of Australia's largest bond fund managers where he managed all sorts of portfolios including corporate bonds, RMBS interest rates. So he's really got diverse bond market experience and he's seen many cycles which is really important when managing a bond portfolio. So in terms of the philosophy of how these portfolios are managed, there's three key points that the team focus on. The first is really diversity. It's really important you spread your risk and to give you an example, typically we see when people manage their own portfolio directly, they might be comfortable owning five to 10 names for 250,000. The portfolio management team in MIPS would manage 20 to 25 names in your portfolio and they can do that because they've got scale, it's a team and they've got experience in both the names, the corporates that are issuing the bonds, but also in the bond markets and how to access and manage that risk and how to book the portfolio together which leads to the looking at the credit profile. So they analyze every bond that they buy. They look at the company, they look at the cash flow, they look at the balance sheet and they'll ask them whether they think the company is likely to pay back their coupons or their interest and their principal at maturity. And they'll do an even deeper dive analysis where they're looking at those high yield bonds which are unrated or sub-investment grade and require an additional layer of work to make sure that they're comfortable with those companies and that they'll not just survive, but they'll pay their interest through the life of that bond. And thirdly, ensuring they deliver really strong returns and these are risk-adjusted returns. So that's why they're thinking about the composition of the portfolio and the diversity, but also driving really strong returns to help you fund your retirement or to grow your overall investments. Now, we're very pleased to say the returns have been very strong and you can see the benefit of having the active management here. So this table demonstrates the returns. The far right-hand column shows you the six-month returns to end of October and these are annualized and they're net of all fees. So that's really important to understand that these are net returns. So these are the returns you, the investor, would have got if you'd invested six months ago. So we have the four programs, the income plus, core income, inflation-linked income and conservative income. And depending which one you'd invested in, you would have got for the last six months between 4.2 and 7.1%. Now, that reflects the different risk-reward choice that investors have made. And I would say we predominantly see high net worth individuals looking at the income plus and the core income. So the income plus returns to the highest, 7.1 and that's the risk profile of that program. The core income is a bit more conservative. It's got a higher allocation to investment-grade-only bonds and that's returned to very strong of 5.8. And the inflation-linked program has returned 4.2% which in this very low inflation-rate environment is a good return as expectations have really been decreased. And it's one of the few ways that you can access a pure inflation hedge. So as you can see, the benefits of the active management over direct bond portfolio are really the peace of mind that someone is managing your portfolio looking to improve returns and also the transparency and the access to income. And I think these returns demonstrate that a portfolio manager can help you optimize your investment in fixed income. Now I'll hand it back over to Graeme. Yeah, thanks Emma. Yeah, look, one thing I was thinking about when you were talking and also with Liz was the importance of with self-managed sub-annuation funds, the operation of the CIS legislation and the need to have an investment portfolio because part of that, you need to be able to consider the place of diversification within that self-managed sub-annuation funds investments. And bonds certainly complement that investment strategy. So when you're thinking about your self-managed sub-annuation fund, I think you need to think as bonds as something that complement and balance the returns on your investment both from a risk point of view and also the yield associated with it. Now to finish up our session, let's have a look at the interface to access the FIG website. And if you have a look at the member dashboard that you've currently got on your screen there and you go up to add services, which is on the left-hand side there and I'll just click on that. Hopefully it'll come up. Now there's the add services screen and if you then scroll down, so you just go down here, you'll come across FIG. Now that's around about the middle of your screen at the moment. There's a whole range of other investments and financial products that you might want to be involved in, but we're just looking at the FIG bond access at the moment on your website. So if you want to set up a count, as some of you may already have a count set up with FIG, but if you don't, just click on that little box there and there's a couple of questions which we're required to answer under the statutory requirements. And so what are you gonna do with your overall wealth? So maybe put down investment income there. Where's your major source of funds? Might come from, let's say, investment income because that's what we're talking about with the self-managed fund and what's gonna be the purpose of the account? So maybe building wealth because that's what we've been talking about today. So if you then go into that, we should be right for that. Get some, go into that. Go down to the bottom, I'll be your pardon. A bit green on this. Go down to next. And then we come up with the first schedule there. So if you go into that and have a look at the summary of charges relating to the accounts, you can see the fees that would be charged. So we then click on that and then we go through to the next part of it. So from that, we've got a, this is a draft presentation that you would have access to here. We both agree to receive the product disclosure statements because I'm sure you'll read those before you go further into that. And then down on the bottom here, we would click next. And hopefully next takes us into the next part of it. And then what do I do here? No, okay. So what that will then do is then show you the aspects and we'll look after that for you from there. Now, why you would use this compared to remote access to the getting on the FIG is that it all forms part of your super concepts portfolio and the access to it through that. Otherwise, what we would need to do there if you're logging into FIG remotely from the system, then we then will need to link you up later in the whole system. So it's better to, if you want to use FIG, integrate that with the accounts super concepts services and then you'll get direct access to that. So now it's over to you. If you've got any more questions that you might like to ask about today's presentation investing in bonds and let's have a look at that. Yeah, we actually surprisingly don't have any questions. So either we've done a really good job or you're perhaps not sure how to use it. So that little box down on the right hand side, if you just click in that, you can type them into us. And we run quite a few webinars and we're used to lots of questions. So don't be shy. I'm just going to talk you through a little bit about what you can find at FIG. We have a website, fig.com.au. The wire is our main newsletter and I think really worth having a good look in there. You can type in the name of the company and see our research or if you're particularly interested in education, you can go to the Education tab and click on that and that will show you a whole list of articles that you can read about. And of course you can phone us. There's our 1-800 number where you're very happy to talk you through or chat to you, whatever question you might have. Really happy. We do have a couple of questions, which is fantastic. So Shane's asked, can I get a copy of the presentation recording? I'm sure that we're going to do that, Shane. We know some of the people that registered couldn't be on the call today. So I'm pretty sure we will get that out to you. Rhonda's asked, the minimum amount required for the managed bond investment and is it open to all? Emma? That's a great question. The minimum investment size is $250,000 and it is only available to wholesale investors. There are, I'm just going to talk a little bit about the fees and that's the nasty word but I think it's really important because with bonds it's not like a direct bond portfolio. Most of our fee is in the buy-sell spread. So you know when you go and you have a foreign currency and you want to go to New Zealand you'll see a buy-sell spread on the currency in the bank. Bonds work a lot like that. So the returns we would show you on a direct bond portfolio are what we would expect you would earn and we've taken a small margin out of those buy-sell spread. And there is for direct bonds there is a custodial fee account charge. Emma, do you want to talk a little bit about the managed bond fees? So there's four programs and one of the programs which is the income plus that has a management fee of 0.85% and then the other three programs have a management fee of 0.65%. And there's also a custodial fee as well which is the same as for the direct bond service. So all those fees are contained in our information memorandum as well so you can see those there. So there's no fee upfront and there's no exit fees? Yeah, there's no upfront fees and no exit fees. And there's also no performance fees. So if we outperform it all comes back to you. We're not taking a chunk of that. So I think that's pretty important as well. So we've got Merve's got a number of questions for us. Hi Merve, thanks for joining us. He asks, is the 7.13% return on the income plus, is that capital and interest? Yes, it is. It's both, that reflects the total return which is made up of both the coupon or the interest payments and any capital appreciation or depreciation. Great. And Merve also asked about liquidity in the second during market. So Merve, this market is huge and typically most of our bonds are very, I'd say very liquid. You know, you're looking at a sort of a trade plus two-day type turnaround. Some of the bonds will be less liquid, particularly in stress markets. So the higher risk ones, you know, it might take us a while to sell in a stress market. You might have to lower your price if you want to sell quickly. But typically those that are investment grade low risk are very easy to sell. Now at the moment there's a huge demand from our client base for corporate bonds and we actually just have trouble getting the bonds. So you might decide you might like a Qantas bond or a Sydney airport bond and we might say, we'll put your name on a wait list and it might take one or two weeks for us to source that bond. That's sort of our role as the bond trader to source the bonds if people want to buy or to sell on their behalf. Okay, so there's a couple of other things, a couple of other questions here. Brian's asked, where do we find the fee structure for the FIG service? The button on the application screen only shows super concept fees for fund admin. I think we will come back to you, Brian. It's certainly through FIG, we can tell you what the fees are and our website should provide you with some more information. But we'll make a note and come back to you on that one, Brian. And Ron asks, when you say wholesale investors, do you mean a sophisticated investor? Yes. So that was an easy question, Ron. That's a straight yes. Now, we're coming to the end of the presentation here. If you have any further questions, I'll give you a minute also to type them in. If not, we will definitely make, I'm gonna say, I'm gonna put my head out there and say we'll definitely make the presentation available so you can listen to it again or you can share it with someone you think might be interested. Certainly the FIG website and our wire newsletter, you will find a lot of information in there. But I would suggest you could come back to Super Concepts or the FIG team and we would be delighted. Nothing more would delight us to help you than to help you set up an account. I think it's great from FIG's part that Super Concepts recognizes that need for diversification and that bonds do play a very good part in diversifying your portfolio. I thank you, Graham, for your comments in that regard. And we don't have any other questions. So I think on that note, we might say good afternoon and thank you very much for joining us. I hope you've learned something. Do you wanna have a final word, Graham? No, thank you for listening in and thanks for those questions. There's certainly good quality questions and hopefully we've been able to answer them for you. Thanks very much. That now concludes the presentation. Thank you for joining us. Good afternoon.