 Hello everybody if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer weekly Joining me as always my best friend since I was a very young man. It's Tyler. What's going on buddy? How you doing? To be here. I could see everybody. Hope everybody's well Best friend forever. That's right me and Tyler best friends You remember you remember Tyler when you when I worked at a shop that sold magic cards You were like I don't know you were like 13 and used to come play magic He'd show up on Saturday mornings and annoy me by playing magical all morning. You remember that I do remember that That's why I know so much about it. Yeah, it was great great time great time Also joining us this week on the show for the first time and I'm very happy to have him Ridge Hannah Ridge. How you doing, brother? Perfect timing Well, Ridge will say hi in a minute, that's okay. You'll be back. I'm sure I'm not worried He looks at least he's at least he's left smiling Okay, so he'll join back in a second. I'm sure But first of course as we're gonna talk about seraphon tonight and Revisit them in 3.0. That's why we have a preeminent seraphon player here But But before we get into that, let's do some news All right, so what do we have? rumor engine looks like a neek run I Was as my guess is that it seems spot-on? Yes, it's totally a neek run. Yeah Yeah, so yeah, we get a lot of 40k rumor engines it seems though. Yeah, that's what that is and We had Then a number of things we got the pricing on dragons saw that and the height the height size Which is good to know I think what eight centimeters like that pretty tall Yeah But I saw it was exactly the same size as the Megas. So that's cool a 120 what I know 150 Westy that's what I saw. Yeah. Yeah, I turned myself up a little there. Someone mentioned. I'm a little quiet Hopefully that's a little better. We'll see how it works At any rate, I kept myself at the same place I was last week where everybody said I was too loud So by the way, I bet rich who mentioned before the show. He was using his laptop. Oh Yeah, I bet that he didn't plug his laptop power in Probably what happened So, yes, totally a neek run good. Okay, and then 150 on the dragons. Yeah reasonable They were cheaper than I thought like I was afraid they were gonna end up in mega gargantt range, but they weren't and So, yeah I think Megas are 195. I think that's yeah, that's what I was thinking. Yeah So, I mean really it's a better deal because you only ever I mean really need one of these dragons I guess you could theoretically get both if you wanted, but I come on now Come on now. Come on son. No, you're gonna run that same car as I list That are yeah, we covered in that show that was That had your name written all over it that might as well just said Vince's new list Exactly correct. That is correct. Yes. You're not wrong All right, so oh, yeah, you got the new Nurgle start collecting kit here I actually didn't see the details on that. I heard about it. You know, what's in that? It's the Scrivener 10 plaguebearers Five blight kings and then two of the big possible blightlord guys that sounds right. Okay top my head. Oh So it's one of those But yeah, and it's like it's it's a getting started Okay, like it's it's that the ad that leaked had it with all the getting started mm-hmm, but It was But it had a new price point Okay, it's got more in there. Yes Hold on we got a note. I was right or not Did you forget to plug your actual laptop in and it died and you didn't have power? No I don't know what happened all of a sudden the lights flickered and I heard like a weird sound and then went over to the modem and no lights were on so Got struck at the absolute perfect time for the internet to go down apparently All good all good my man all good Okay, so At any rate we um We were just I introduced you. Hi, Ridge. How you doing? Good to have you we were talking about Sarah fun. We're getting in the news So yes, the new nergal getting started getting started box So yeah, it's like Scrivener 10 plaguebearers five blight kings and two possible dudes It's basically what was on the box like you had to zoom way in but that's I'm pretty sure that's what it was And it's in a new price point. It was in euros So I don't know exactly how they translate, but it had its own new price point of a hundred euros So obviously that's gonna be more than a hundred USD, but I don't know what that means USD. So Oh, yeah Looking forward to seeing all these that we'll be getting because I know that 40k They moved to these two kind of boxes where you get a little bit more Yeah, a little higher price point, but yeah, and then I know we'll be getting our battle force box preview I think this week maybe next week. Yeah, pretty soon. I yep We're expecting we they confirmed that battle forces are coming and we're expecting the battle force box preview I believe it would be next week timing. Otherwise is usually when they reveal it. Yeah Gotcha. Yeah Yeah, those are always great deals. Yeah, I'm excited for nergal I I played a little bit here and there, but yeah, I'm just hoping the mortals are gonna be good and have cool rules And some type of bonus to cast and yeah I've got a little bit more into the demons now as well, but you know, just playing the channel and stuff We'd like to play a bunch of different army. So I have been slowly Collecting a big nergal army. So yeah, I'm pumped for that Yeah, I mean, it's it's a lot of questions. What kind of book are we gonna get, you know, that's what we're all wondering like It's like I will say happy with everything I've seen in 3.0 so far, but the shadow of slanesh looms large over all of us I feel that in my soul So there you go But you know, we'll see we'll see. Yeah, I got a good feeling on this one. Yeah, whatever the hell that's worth. But yeah Me too. This one's gonna be a banger. Grandfather nergal wouldn't let us down. That's right Glocken make the Glocken good. I want the Glocken to be just amazing. That would be I really think the Glocken is gonna be too good. Okay. Like they're gonna That they always do and I and like he's featured heavily in all of the like art pieces that they've used to talk about this Upcoming tome and anytime they do that. Oh battleforces reveal tomorrow. Okay, cool. Sorry. I thought it was next. I thought it was Sunday But tomorrow great But like they keep putting him in all the pictures and I'm like, you know, okay guys You're angry that your big centerpiece model that is so cool that is very new Hasn't been like featured in any armies for years. So Yep, yep. Yeah, he's always so close though. Like his commandability a spell. They're so so so good. But yeah, it's like They're almost there Let me ask you a question Does Glocken get fixed the same way the Prime got fixed? Like if they had seven words to him if the seven words they add are this model has a four-plus word It helps a lot or five plus word, which doesn't have one right now. No, he does not have a word say right now No, he's so yeah Like there's no way he should get a four plus word by the way That would be terrible. Yeah, I can't wait to wait too many wounds. That'd be a nightmare And there goes gonna have ways to heal and I guarantee they're gonna have ways to you know what I mean do those types of things So yeah five up I could see maybe Yeah, he's named character. So you can't really give him or take anything like that But yeah, it's just the you know unreliable as well for damage. He's more just there to suck up wounds have a good commandability and An awesome spell. But again, there's no way to give plus one only the guo can get plus one by stabbing itself so it's like in this day and age Casting on dice like a larial is just not Not a fun thing to do Yeah, yeah, definitely needs to get damaged up a little bit But sure that would go a long way because what 16 18 wounds glockin. He's got 18. I think yeah, yeah Yeah, that that would be amazing. So yeah, it doesn't feel like it's much because you're right rich Yeah, I mean he's always felt like he's you know, not too far off from being playable Mm-hmm doesn't feel like he needs much well You run him with like the one wound like I used to run him with plague monks, which was amazing but even better were marauders right because That spell is giving them two wounds each plus one attack They were just rid get ridiculous and especially with the turn and blade future faction on a five plus But again, if you don't get any of those spells off, it doesn't matter how many how amazing there Magic is always like a questionable strategy at best. Yes. Yes, indeed. Yeah. All right, so we'll see Nurgle, I'm sure we'll get some Nurgle information coming very soon. So All right, what else we got yeah, yeah, we got the cities of Sigma or white dwarf those are making the rounds so This show is engaged in a campaign of manufacturing Consent where we're not allowed to talk about grand strategies and battle tactics. Correct. Oh, we're probably just gonna skip those They don't exist. No, correct Even though I was very upset reading them by the by because there's absolutely one in this book that you're like Oh, cool. That's an autocomplete battle tactic fun. Yep Banners held high Just like turn one autocomplete easy in a lot of scenarios and a lot of scenarios ask Jordan Ask Jordan about that one. I think you know Tyler He's been he's been beat twice by Gargantz and just by the battle tactic In the gargant book and there was no other no other ones that could be done and it So he gets real fired up when you mention that Absolutely. Yeah, that's I've noticed that's part of his that that's one of his first triggers Yeah, yes, we will continue to always and forever on this show say that all white dwarf and book grand strategies and battle tactics Should be thrown out by the TO's in all tournaments. They should be disallowed period So I agree do it because it creates a ridiculously Inequitous playing field for no reason whatsoever and it's often buffing the armies. They're already quite strong It's just whatever anyways, so There's an incredible mount trait which I got to experience last night a lot of fun soaring Guardian on Griffins so that's general on Griffin who is apparently quite a beat stick Dude tore through ten vindictors like there were nothing they're on a two up save stacking plus three against his minus two rent Eat like seven or eight dead one activation Still it was it was a bit of a shock. Yeah, so on a white once it first time It was a hot roll then yeah, I think that guy quite a bit and he does not accomplish what you just said Aren't the weeks of four damage, right? Like two Yeah, and you just kept rolling dice. I mean I kept rolling once for him So yeah, anyway The first time the model slain before moving from the battlefield roll the dice on a one It stays slain on a two up you get to return it Anyone on the battlefield more than nine away for your opponent and heals up D3 wounds And it also it doesn't have like the signs of the storm thing where you keep allocating It just negates any additional damage that was done, right? So that's that's extraordinary like in terms, you know, like healing recover healing recovery Fantastic bully right because then you're gonna pull him back and then just start heroic recovering him like crazy or something like that Like you shouldn't pull him back into the back of your line Yeah So yeah, I mean having a general that pops back up on a two up. We'll talk a little bit about four up Pop backs a little later on but the The You know having it on a two up is pretty pretty reliable as things go Yeah, they have access to legs isn't sear wounds like a d6 here Like they have some good ways to heal them up to if he comes back to life like that's legit Yeah, hallow heart has the d6 wound heal and then what is it living cities also has a heal in their spell list off the top I had I think they got a d6. Yeah Living cities isn't good enough yet. Let's get you know You got your fulminators sneak in their way in now. We can have an awesome general like yeah, let's do it living cities forever, I guess Yeah, that's gonna be good. Jordan's been talking about that one the fulminators in Living City. That's I think Rocco is It's gonna be Well, I know I don't know if it was him But someone at Du Bois did have the Living City with that and lots of fulminators because they're just amazing, right? Yeah, I thought Rocco did I thought I saw a living city with four full, but yeah, maybe he's in the Chad Yeah, that nice little power pair experience. Yeah with that thing and the frost are Phoenix But I guess that's true or like about anything you roll with the frost are Phoenix That's fast and keep up with this is a good power pair with the nice one wound Yeah, it's pretty tasty and then the other mount trade photo breath model with black dragon mount only when the model attacks I'm not noxious breath it flex one more to wound for each roll of five plus instead of each six I didn't look in terms of how many dice were rolling there with noxious breath. Do you guys know off-hands? Because it like look it's a bad mount trade because it doesn't actually fix anything that needed to be fixed What I mean by that is like the problem with the black dragon has never been oh My noxious breath isn't damaging enough so the way noxious breath works make one attack You roll a number of dice equal to the number of models from the target unit that are in range of the attack Okay, and this thing has the noxious breath has a six inch range So, you know unless you're actually in combat with them It's not it going to be a huge number of models in a in a non horde edition Right. It just doesn't do that much. You're not rolling that many dice to begin with And when you put them in combat God forbid the sorceress get in there like she's dead instantly because she's on a five Up, but even the dreadlord isn't that tough Right. Yeah, it's got to be at least 10 if not 12 then maybe but still yeah, like you said sentinels There's there's some things wardens some things that you're still seeing in 20s and and you know that type of thing But yeah, not great. Oh sure, but I hope that when you charge those Those sentinels to get into combat with somebody else charged first Because otherwise you are in real trouble Because you are going to get mortal wounded into oblivion like you will cease existing at the end of that charge You know charging most sentinels But anyways, yeah, the griffin trait really good dragon trait Yep, still bad. Cool. I'm like neat. I get on average against most units. I'm gonna breathe on one more mortal wound Hmm Well now they're on the level that was stopping them from being good Definitely be taking those over a Phoenix now sure All right, so that those women mentioned I thought you guys anything else with cities I saw those too No, that was that was it. I don't think there's anything else in there really I just listened to Carl tell me on the way home from Du Bois to be honest about it That's the other reason I know anything about them Right on All right, we got a new meta-watch article. So Dan. Yes Breets can I have a picture for this with one of the interesting pictures out of here? But go ahead keep talking brilliant. Yeah So thanks to Dan and as usual everybody involved in putting the stats together a rob They're the honest wargamer with all the work that he's doing DKHM if I got that acronym right the work that they're doing, which I know Dan really pulled upon for this article Yeah, he so of course we're seeing a rise as we'd expect and Results from Stormcast and orc work lands, you know, it's I do kind of wish they would still break out the crowboys iron jaws rather than just that one big bucket whatever and What else have we seen guys with this? Think we saw a drop-off in Suns a little bit and I mean sons and daughters being the biggest drops, right? In far as far as their four-plus win rate percentage That little that little tick in night haunt See that little in night. Oh, it's like one person Well, it's gonna go up Exponentially from because I doubt it included the result from the weekend It did not because this is this is only through the 8th of November So this does not have the this does not have Bill Seuss's result if that's what you're pointing to when he was running Oh May not a bills, but then there was a gentleman who got 5-0 over the weekend Massive percentage changes in the night on four plus win Good stuff so They're on they're on the rise people are discovering the power of ghosts I Mean the best part about ghosts is all the extra command points you get you don't have to worry about You know all out defense so it's just a bunch of extra command points right there It's gotta be it But yeah, I mean stormcast shooting way up work shooting way up none of these things are surprising to me in any way This is exactly what we expected. I'm not sure I expected seraphon to see such a jump since the 4th of October But yeah Okay, it aligns well for our show tonight to talk about why seraphon or even still on the rise Clearly coming in strong into the new edition, right? So Mm-hmm. Yeah, good stuff. It's a cool article a lot of great breakdowns Danded some really nice stuff as far as breaking down the completion percentage of things like grand strats and Counts of battle tactics that were used and you know percentage of battle tactics completed by round and all sorts of things like that So there's a lot of there's a lot of really juicy detail in there that I thought was really good So yeah, let's talk about the the grand strat completion rate So we had 73% first blood 68% tectonic interference 63 survival the fittest 73 power struggle 58 Of foray events. We talked a lot about this, you know with the reference in Ashkahn schemes and the rates that we're looking for What did you what did you think about those completion rates? Let's is that higher or lower than you'd expect a little bit higher than I would expect or well It's about no I shouldn't say it's a little bit lower than where I expected But a little bit higher than where I'd want it one about that. Yeah, I Think it's still too easy and especially this is part of the problem We're talking about with the battle tome and white dwarf battle tactics is I think that most people are probably averaging for right now a game In most games like obviously that's a that's not to judge that data set It's not the biggest data set obviously that those percentages are drawn from but you know We don't have a wider data set, but my inference would be we'd be properly You know, if you just looked across the board and kind of average if we could just magically average everything together My intuition is it'd be somewhere in the upper 70s. That's just my intuition. That's not backed up by any data So rich do you any perspective on that? I Battle planes it comes to like there's obviously your tough ones and there's obviously your easier ones like like the vices always one That's super tough. So, you know when you're building your list you need to think about these things So that's honestly one of the reasons why I ran the bacilladon I was really close to running long strikes because I just love allies and you know the long range They're about the same range. Well, but the one's a little less But yeah, just being able to no matter what get monsters take over every every game You know being able to get an extra point with broken ranks, you know, one year building your list Battle plans are definitely something you should think of and then how we many battle techs you can actually get at those battle plans So, yeah, I also thought it was cool though that they wrote the percentages and I was it was interesting to see what most people take Obviously not with price or serene and Beastmaster We know which you know which grand strats most people are taking but yeah interesting for sure with the battle plans and the tactics Yeah, the faro for a being the lowest sort of one was interesting to me. I suppose I would I wouldn't have predicted that would have been the one that was that that popped as the toughest like I doubt I mean, you know, I definitely agree on the vice having some challenges But that your point about monsters take over is as well-suited, right? Like it's it really is a reason to have one monster in your list just because it's a free two points Right And you feel it when that gets cut off from you when you're like, I can't do that one Mm-hmm. Yep on the tougher ones for sure. Yeah. Yeah So, yeah, the most part of battle tactics at the event broken ranks 152 conquer 126 aggressive expansion 119 ferocious advance one of seven I thought that'd be higher because you know, we're all familiar with that one Usually round one and savage spearhead 106, which was pretty interesting as well to see savage spearhead quite high up there You know, that's one we got to get two units in your opponent's territory and some of these some of these maps can be a little challenging with the Is that was that how many they took or how many they completed the amount? I wonder Probably how many they picked as a complete it Yeah, because savage spearhead you're you're all you're measuring that like, you know You're getting savage spearhead whereas like broken ranks is by far the most failed battle tactic At least that we have like how many times in the channel or how many times you you have one skank that survives or you know I mean like yes, or like with parting shot like there's so many ways to to keep your battle line alive I if that is completed, it's like I definitely didn't think it was gonna be that high because I've Just confirmed in the chat by the way that it's completed. That's what yeah, wow Wow, so just getting that me I suppose because I mean every time I pick broken ranks for the most part When I'm not having a stroke or something. It's it's when there's like three dudes left in the unit You know, you're gonna clean up. Yeah, right You like there's almost always at some point in the game some battle line unit that is horrendously depleted Has like three normal little dudes left and you're like, yep, that's it's broken ranks I'm gonna kill this unit. So you got three Yeah, just with redeploy to though like I don't know I guess it's something that I just really tried to do when I you know I'm often when someone's picking your battle tactic and they're like going in between hmm broken ranks or should I do Something else and in my head. I'm like, oh pick broken ranks pick broken I might have a chance at redeploying and then you failing a four inch five inch charge You know what I mean? If you have shooting or other ways to make sure you kill that battle line unit then that makes sense But yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, I think a lot of people that's your first go-to, right? You're gonna just be like I'll shoot these things with whatever it takes to get those two points, right? Yeah 100% like it is a good use of my power projection if I can just pick these idiots up Yeah, absolutely Couple of the pieces of this to wrap it up. They had the breakdown of the Minutes remaining milestones that they started doing at Warmer World, which I really like I think that's pretty cool So, you know 165 minutes start of the round Five minutes in and you should have your pregame discussion decision finished deployment should be completed, you know 10 minutes later. I think that's useful and doing call outs I don't know if you'll actually comment he went to the events and they really appreciated these various call outs That's got that's Steve Wren was doing though. Yeah, and then of course we got Ben Johnson's incredible stormcast list getting highlighted here That's that's just a beautiful list Jacothean guard for days you got it you gotta love it by the way update Dan went back and double-checked. It was actually chosen not complete. So there we go. Okay, that makes more sense There we go So This is the breaking news coming in from the chat. Thank you Dan for confirming Yeah, I mean overall it was a good article. I liked a lot of the detail in there I really I would love to see that kind of information Scaled up way up Right, like I'd love it if we could get that kind of level of detail at a macro scale Because I think it would be very like I think it'd just be powerful to know, right? fine All right, cool. Anything else we got? I think that's it bud. There we go. Thus end at the news. All right. Let's talk about some pick of the week Pick of the week Rich, what do you want to share with everybody? pulled a little bit of a Tyler and Did more than one pick of the weeks here, but no, I just wanted Highlight just cause some of the podcasts that I listened to And just friends that I've made pretty much. So yeah, Rage of Sigma first of all Joe Jacob just awesome dudes I know Vince you were just on an episode I just love how they're just super funny and you know not always braid on with age of Sigma It's a little bit of a mix. So it's nice So yeah, I just wanted to say them and then party at the all points you guys actually had on a bit ago as well Yeah, yeah, so yeah Dayton Bud and Tristan Canadian boys love them. I actually just met finally met Dayton and Joe and a lot of those guys just at the boys So it's just so nice when you chat with people for so long on discord or just different things And finally meet a good person. It was like yeah, just so awesome So shows to them and and then the last one actually is one that I listened to for for a long time I've ever chosen podcast. I think Tyler you might have mentioned him before too big fan of those guys Yeah, yeah, so Jeremy I've talked to before on Twitter here and there I know he played Seraphon and whatnot. So just you know getting into the hobby I loved it because it was one of the only ones that talked competitively and about tournaments and about Pairings and you know who took out events and I felt like I know more about the Texas scene than I knew about like anywhere else So just kind of funny and now that Matt Taylor is on there as well and then Marco's body It's yeah through this great guy good charisma between them and whatnot. So I think they're yeah That was an awesome one as well And then I just a quick shout out to just for Caleb Hastings. So before we even get into the video He's pretty much the Seraphon guru with with everything. I think he's people. He's from Texas as well But that's just another quick little I guess pick of the week with him So if you haven't seen any of his stuff Just Caleb Hastings on YouTube if you especially if you're starting out to play Seraphon just in a great place He has like videos about you know, the best units to take an artifact the best units to take with certain things Like yeah, just like great overall pretty much for Seraphon. Nice Tyler, what do you got? Folks All right, so you mentioned data and actually I saw just before the show he had this great rant on Twitter about so he watched like a lot of us arcane on Netflix arcane You know based on League of Legends, which I knew absolutely nothing about and it was a doter whatever heck those are called and This show not anything new it was phenomenal like the character development the animation it just amazing You haven't seen it go check it out if you're a nerd you're gonna love it He had a breakdown Post a photo or somebody did of this. It looks like a chap that he had with somebody. I'm just gonna read a little bit of it I think it's a really great point. I can't read all of it So arcane League of Legends just shows me how it's done and that GW blanked up make a great animation show showcasing to the world your You know the game the world that your game belongs to it get accessible to the masses through a program Everybody already knows that is put it on Netflix Let them love it then a few will follow it into you know getting more details about it and introduce them to the game and play Instead GW makes it so that the only ones who watch their content are the ones who already know about it Of course, he's referring to warmer TV making their market smaller than would be otherwise and So I just love this point I mean maybe that's part of their strategy is that we're gonna you know There's actually a show in the works on Netflix or somewhere that's gonna be coming out in the coming years But that really resonated with me like his basic point like this is the way to do it If you want to open up to new audiences and really grow this this community So I just wanted to share that if anybody hadn't seen it. No, it's interesting I mean yeah, I had a couple we you know I had a game this weekend and one of my buddies was like all talking that show up and down Way into it. Yeah, and you know, he's not watching anything on warmer plus. So there you go I mean, it's pretty much that simple, you know, yeah Yeah, I'm a big fan of a lot of the constant on warmer plus it's just I thought he made a yeah an important point in terms of you know If they really want to grow their audience like Hurricane is showing you what's possible. So anyhow, right? Which did an amazing show with Noah. I think the guy's name is And I'm not familiar with them really sharp dudes. He Talking Stormcast so he had a sort of off kilter Off meta takes on stormcast. I mean the dude was taught like singing the praises of what vanquishers could potentially do So I highly recommend checking it out for the lessons That is definitely a left field pick yes Okay, so yeah, really really good show sharp guy and Also wanted to give a shout out to a fellow who Marty Orlando worked with to create this extraordinary piece of Luma that far Cleveland Mosher So since you're linked the vents to his page. I just artist who took the Is this you know this infamous? I think Warhammer fantasy battle 8th edition cover art for Hylph battle tome or Hylph army book. Yeah One of the classic images and Marty had him create a luminous version of that rich Have you seen this I T show me and told me about it actually when we met there had to boy So yeah, it was it was awesome looking just crazy that someone take the time to do it in his scheme like his army scheme So yeah, it was super cool So late and if I had been better prepared, I would have had the name of the original artist who did the original cover But it's all there In the in the links. So definitely go check that out to kind of find out more about the backstory and give this Art of some love just want to give him a shout out I was blown away by that art piece and just in general Marty's army like seeing that display board he put together You know, he took out best painted at the boys And extraordinary work and good on you Marty for for all of the effort they put into that army. It's gorgeous Yeah, it's really really nice. It's like seeing it stuff like that in person, too It's yeah, you can really really see the detail and you know the story and everything Nice nice My pick is for the storm keep who was on the show recently They did a show about list building with storm counting which was really good So check it out if you're looking for more stormcast love as you can see from the chart They are the most increasing percentage. So, you know, jump on the hype train now. Okay, somebody's got to kill the Seraphon That's wait for the dragons Get it get it if you if you start playing now, you can say you did it before the dragons came out That's why you so, you know, you're not you're not just dragon bandwagoning Um, so yeah, that's my that's my pick check it out episode all that is linked down in the description And as we head into hobby time, don't forget to hit like Don't forget to subscribe. Don't forget to hit all those buttons as it says up in the corner of the screen hitting buttons is fun Click buttons. Just click around on the screen. You'll probably hit the thumbs up. There you go Okay, so Rook McVance since since Ridge was thoughtful to not plug his own channel that he's a part of we've obviously got to mention It's part of the duty mine in particular on this channel every show that I'm on to Season of war if for some reason there's a soul out there who watches this show that doesn't know about it It is one of the greatest battery poor channels on the internet hands down 40k, whatever it's it's phenomenal I don't get paid to say this and Ridge when I saw you on I Was excited dude because yeah, you bring a lot to the channel and I really just really grateful for everything You guys are doing over there. It's yeah, that's amazing to see the main reason I didn't is because Tyler you you give us enough plugs on most of the other shows and I know some of the other people do so It's like just super funny. But no, yeah, Jordan's obviously very appreciative of it We're a competitive team here in Canada, but it's yeah Jordan does so much so much work And I know we I've chatted about it You know multiple times we're just starting to do a little bit more of like live streaming now, too Like he just had a live stream with Cass actually his his wife who does the narration for us So she's getting into it as well, which is fun So we're gonna get more into a little bit of live streaming and stuff like that But yeah, if you haven't checked it out for sure We just want to really focus on like competitive Warhammer And just the tactics behind it, you know, we really talk about what we do reasons why we don't do things reasons why you know just to help people learn and you know, obviously amazing reception and it's just fun too I just love going and I play games with Jordan who's one of the best, you know players I've well probably the best I've ever played this. So it's like, yeah, these it's it's fun stuff Vince doesn't like when you curse on this show. I found out over the years So one of my favorite parts is when Ridge you have a curse word that slips out I kind of gather that like the the member only channel is more of the PG-13 and up Yeah version of season of war, but you try to keep it a little cleaner on the on the main channel So I enjoyed that. Yeah, don't listen to my party at the all points episode if you have but it's I didn't even realize I was talking after the date and I'm like, I didn't I listened to it back. Wow was I actually swearing that much like it's crazy You don't even realize just, you know, I don't know, but no, that's funny All right, so let's talk some hobby time Ridge, what are you been working on man? Now that you're back. Obviously you you had a busy weekend Yeah, what do you what do you what's been on your table? Did you have anything get ready to get rid of the tournament you back in jazz to paint some What's happening? Yeah, so I was well I played fangs at Red Harvest and I had four salamanders and then I had one for summoning So because I was playing trichotheans this with more Sally's I really wanted them to match So I just finished up the two Sally's for that so I was running two times three salamanders So I had a pink ones purple ones, so now I have blue ones because I paint with a lot of pink purples and blues for my whole like Astros me starry themes. So yeah, I finished them up I painted up Duralia, which I call Dural is a shout to Jacob help me with that name But she's was just amazing. So I just finished her up. I used just this skink head from the star blood stockers I can't remember which one it was like the one that has its mouth open and it's kind of straight up But yeah, that that was a sweet war been because I also used the skink priest from that one because the sculpt is just amazing Of the guy holding the orb up So yeah, I finished those two off. That was pretty much the only prep I had the Bissell and I had most of the other stuff done I did spruce up my bases a bit. So I used a bunch of different little shields and Sure, you know Swords and different stuff to like put around and I actually did a display board Vince So shout to you I watched your your display board video and I pretty much based off the Pink foam like did all that kind of stuff Made like a temple in the one corner and then the other corner I had my realm shaper with like the storm cast Which is it's from I think the war cry kit. It's got like the storm cast pillars So I actually did a display board for the first time like an actual full-out It took me like two or three weeks with a lot of work and it was like super rewarding to actually get it finished And I do I put on Twitter and everything my whole theme was it was when I had gotcha He's holding up a blot toad. So my goth truck is like themed with a blot toad and I just kind of thought of like the Lion King theme So when he's holding up the blot toad like it's Simba on top of this mountain And then all the skinks and salamanders and everything are like looking up towards him as like my kind of display board Idea yeah, so I just I did the same thing this I just put deralia up there instead of goth trick because I was running Yeah, so pump for nerve although like I said after I get through this stuff I'm gonna I have a glock in I have a Jordan bought me new guo I have like some a bunch of other blight kings and things so I'm going to probably delve into Some nergal after but yeah, nice nice Rich, did I hear right that you forgot your display board? I might have yeah, I didn't want to break it No, so when we left Probably forgot it at the tournament. Yes. Yeah, I know if you've got a public explanation that you can share 100% I was yeah, I put it on Twitter anyway, so really cares I left my display board there and yeah, if you hear this to from Du Bois No, it's one of the guys there that was organizing message him an email and I'm just waiting haven't heard back But I left after I won I was just whatever ready to have beers and go hang out with the guys and whatnot So Jordan was doing a little interview with Marty So I ended up leaving and left my display board just in the conference room. So when I left Yeah, I didn't realize and then I went back Monday and I kind of went mass and we went to a few different people and she said no I thought, you know, I thought maybe they would have left it in a different room, but they didn't so Yeah, it's somewhere in I don't know in the USA. So maybe next year or next A rogue seraph on display board anywhere in the upstate New York area. Please return it to Ridge. That's what we're saying here Yes, exactly. Yeah, and I can't Yeah, well, I'm obviously it cost money to get the everything to go get it even if I could it's like And I'm not playing many tournaments now because like I told you guys I have hip surgery coming up So I'm gonna be out of commission for you know, at least a month or two hoping to make LVO. So we'll see but Yeah, not a huge deal. I'm a bit as you guys can imagine. I'm a very very casual laid-back kind of guy so Sucks I did a lot of work like I put a lot of blood sweat and tears in that But I'd much rather that than my thousands of dollars of my army. Sure. Yeah All right, well a shame but hopefully someone finds it and it way it's works its way back to you I saw it on Twitter. It looked very nice. I did a great job on it. Awesome. Thanks Tyler Still Something to tell you which will we'll just save it in terms of yeah, some people have a I can't I can't mention right now Well, we'll come back to that later on so You had a team RTT last weekend, which is a lot of fun had 10 teams show up. So 20 20 folks that's pretty cool wasn't expecting that many and And Turned out zinch. So my friend and I Bryce we took zinch and iron jaws and who knew that's a pretty strong combo So, yeah, we were told by my co-to that sons of Bayham at and iron jaws would be filthier than zinch Iron jaws. So it's all his fault We're strong armed into playing that combo. We had no choice clearly. How many things many pinks. Yes All right, so it's Cairo. It was nice being on the receiving or the giving rather than the receiving end of Kairos for once That model is ridiculous What that thing does in the game Which everybody probably knows but yeah, it was hilarious being on the on the other end of that 10 pinks three screamers plus the six screamers for host Kairos change caster change caster went crazy as he likes to do with his getting extra cast whenever you do Nine-up casts that was fun. Yeah a cabbage with the usual fast and amulet I think I did the d3 mortal wound impact six pigs vents who were Extraordinary, you know, actually absolutely extraordinary that all it took 100% under-costed Yeah, yeah But yeah, so we we had a nice 3.0 first place showing on that says a lot of fun But yeah, thanks to Trav my fellow co-conspirator for for that. Yeah, good weekend. Well, it turns out That a killy offensive melee army combined with like a power projection ranged castle army in teams Hmm is a pretty good combination. I don't know if people have caught into this yet, but it turns out Those two things work well together Yeah, very weird. Can Kairos use the dice for you as well or what was what was that ruled? Oh We didn't we did not. Oh gosh. We we could have been filthier. Wow We did get to use it very appropriate for this show to force a dead toad to miscast The or the immortal toad to miscat. Yeah, that was that was the moment of the weekend for me. Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah Nice nice. So that that that was that was fun. Yeah For myself, it's another busy hobby week Working on one thing I can't share with everybody, but we're finished this girl up right here who's going to be way too small to show properly, but this is a Vanari blade Lord Lord Okay, there you go. I did that. So this is for Marty back I'm he had won the have me paint something from Meph's stream. So I finished that up Okay, look at this. I picked this girl because she's got this beautiful open stance, right? You can see our swords are way out whatever like our swords are big and ridiculous And then after I painted it and I finished it yesterday. I was like, huh Now what how do I ship this back to him? What do I wrap? this ridiculous thing To make it not break in transit. I don't know. I'm gonna have to figure it out a million pounds of Saran wrap. Yeah, like Very careful my Having done obviously commissions My favorite so far that I've seen is toilet paper as the principal wrap It's just it's it's very problematic But I'll get it shipped out this week and then I also converted up my my Ratchet and Carthalos here our big boy. He's he's ready to go The big Chad himself of the rat cast will be ready to roll out I don't have him primed or painted or anything yet. I just got him finished converting today He's got his little rat tail poking out from beneath his robes and a nice head and I switched his hammer for the big giant Glaive because all the all my guys have glaives And yeah, so I've got him going and excited about that dude Is that from the claw lord island of blood weapon? I don't it's one of the yeah, I think so. Yes. It's one of the claw lord Yeah, I recognize it because I have a few of them and I'm a huge scaven nut So like I told you man, I'm so pumped that it looks so nice. I'm real excited about him Let's be honest. I freaking love bastion Carthalos or whatever like what a I've been playing hammers mostly like I'm using a You know a hammer's rule set and boy I'm excited to have him show up and just start smashing face and doing anything he does so What was the what was the bet for Vince? You don't want me out with Marty. What did? Oh, it was for it was sort of the Rantathon it was got you health charity stream there was a raffle giveaway To for me to paint a model for someone and I ended up sticking on for two additional hours because the next guest wasn't available and then So I ended up just saying hey in this hour. I'll paint something else. I had to do two figs. The first one was for Brendan and I gave that to him at Holy Havoc So that was for his Crematorian boss and then now this is done. So all those things are cleared off my plate finally I Can get and now it's just back to a million other things to paint anyways For my my next 1,000 points your your tables cleared off There is a video I made completely on how to do that scheme you want a more Tyler either watch the video or direct your Commission painter to watch that video I've been enjoying all the comments. I'm accepting on your behalf about this beautiful. I am Charles army. So thank you Happy to help buddy. Happy to help. All right So gentlemen, are we ready to get into some seraphon? Absolutely. All right, let's do it. Okay All right Let's bring up some seraphon here raise before I forget Duralia Thumbs up thumbs down over the weekend. Oh crazy, man. Well, she she popped a hurricane in game one She popped a cathalar game to What was game three? Yeah, she was man out of the realm shaper doesn't count as a move So you get plus one to hit and the plus one attack on her Crossbow, so I was doing best ever on her like usually turn one because I don't care about CP So and then she's already possible to hit so she's two's and two's minus two for damage against wizards two shots Yeah, I was excited when I saw her in your list. That's all that. That's a great pic She's a lover. I love her so much. She's great Okay, so Seraphon Let's get into it. This army continues to like grow in its meta winning percentage it is been powerful basically since it got its book and Continues to be Just a dominating force in the meta. I Think we can all agree on that. Yep So here's my summary of it and then I want to throw over to you Ridge My summary is this is a it's an extremely varied force and it plays really well in 3.0 for a mix of different reasons It's got on the hero front. It's got really strong monster heroes as well as just good regular heroes like in general both monster and non monster It's got great magic Has a lot of very potent utility coming out of especially its tiny heroes like amongst your hero section There's just quality through and through right no matter kind of what you're trying to achieve Troops you've got both solid battle line options in both swarms and monsters Unusually you actually have quite a few monsters that have pretty potent ranged attacks Which is really powerful for things like battle tactic completion Because normally your monsters to complete a battle tactic, you know, they need to kill this unit or they do something like that Well, they got to get the bonus point. They got to go walk over there and do it but plenty of the units that are in Seraphon can just be like nah, I'm gonna get the bonus point from here But bow and and you know the power projection on big monsters that are that are you know efficiently pointed It's pretty rare, right other than like a breath weapon that does almost no damage. Let's be honest That's most monsters ranged attacks, right? Yeah They have a lot of speaking of range. They have a good deal of ranged power. So varied units There's a lot of different types of ways to project power in the army both through magic and through shooting And then they're quite versatile So, you know, even as the meta has changed as some of the underlying construction has changed, right like You you might not be able to do the same big skink clouds anymore As you used to be able to do or you might not be as incentivized to have big skink clouds We go into 3.0 or whatever It doesn't matter the army has a deep enough bench that it's able to still play in a lot of different ways Bring a lot of different units onto the table all of which can bring a good amount of value They can go mixed arms. They can go monster mash. They can go ranged heavy They can do a board control play, right? And they have strong allegiance abilities to support sort of each of these Strategies, that's my summation. Did I miss anything there, Rich? What do you what do you think about that summary and they have one of the best terrain pieces in the game and not just for its Ability, but its ability to pair with Comet and other ranged mortals other ranged things, but even more so especially in this meta It's unbelievable at area denial. So, you know deploying your units around the realm shaper and in between terrain You can't fit. I know with with Tyler your mock rushers Like you can't fit those pipe plates anywhere where I have units like that Like it's so so good at denying that hiding your heroes like oh man. Yeah, but no other than that Yeah, you hit it right in the nose. It's it's this synergy It's all of the abilities which people get so mad because you don't have to roll for them You know six to wound doing an additional mortal Three up to give plus one save runs you charge plus one to hit until next hero phase like just so many things And then as well, they just get so many CP That's one of the other only things that I would say like just you're always running a slam or you know Sometimes with the star seer as well. They have minus one plus one save. They they just have a wage They have three to six charge there's just a way to pretty much do everything in the book and You know, it's been pointed out a little bit better now things have went up Not enough in my opinion obviously with certain models like salamanders and things like that But compared to aos 2 I think right away people were Because of how strong they were in aos 2 it was just unbelievable that Like anyone lost any games playing fangs aos 2 like how strong it was to bail one top And use croak to do mortal wounds everywhere And I was on the way home. We were talking. I was just thinking to myself like I I remember having 40 skinks three a pack of three salamanders and 20 chameleon skinks and dropping all of that down and You know what I mean? It was wild that that was actually a thing you could do. Um, yeah, so but all the rest of that Yeah, definitely accurate. I'm still a huge fan of the the skinks. I honestly think a 30 pack of skinks is still super viable The reason being you can have two Two packs of salamanders So you have like your your pack to do a lot of rend Then you have your multitude of shots because there are a lot of models like gotrek and and other things that You need to be able to do a lot of no rend damage and just put that damage through even like I was looking at bill susan's list. I was like, oh, shit. What am I going to do? Like he doesn't care about my salamander rend, right? But if I did a multitude of shots, then they're going to go down to that way easier So there's a lot of you know, maybe not the top meta stuff, but there's a lot of models that Don't like a multitude of shots and then a multitude of Moonstone clubs as well. But yeah, there's obviously just a good overview in general Yep Yeah, and I'll say that the It's funny how much How impactful a small change can be Like the realm shaper went from one of the worst terrain pieces in the game because it was basically unusable You would just kind of have to set it in the middle of the table and hope Basically To one of the best terrain pieces in the game in the jump 3.0 where they were like, oh no, actually here you go We'll let you use your terrain piece Right and just the instantaneous change that had on the army. I completely agree completely So good pairing it with the mortals like it's there's so many ways to get ranged mortals And I can't tell you how many times I've just got lucky and rolled the three in the comet and three on the realm shaper And then they're exposed your hero. It's yeah Right. Yep Uh, okay So, uh, cool. Tyler, do you think I missed anything? Is there anything else we should talk about here at the summary level? That's good, man Right on Okay Let's talk about the numbers. So we saw some of the numbers earlier. Here's some of the breakdown Now this isn't quite as fresh. This isn't as hot and fresh. I think as the october 8th data This is like one week before that this is one week older data. I think But still quite, you know important Um, because I think they're even higher now Which is shocking somehow But you know serif on are writing a at the second highest four plus win rate overall As of this data set that's only probably like either either second or third now They have a very strong meta percentage in being fourth place in their representation in the meta Which is you know also quite strong Uh, and you know Then being basically tied for third in the number of five wins as of this This item So and again all these numbers have just kept going up. We've seen you know again We're gonna add one more Five plus win as of last weekend to this result at minimum because of because of ridge right there Right, you're gonna get it's gonna go from eight to nine on battle alone So, you know when I look at these numbers Let me ask this question. Okay just on this alone Serif on as of this has sort of the highest Placing four plus win percentage and they've been going up Sons who was the previously highest has gone down. They were the second biggest drop Right since october 4th Okay But serif on Who I will remind everybody was in second place to only sons Is still on an upward trajectory So here is the question ridge and I think you already hinted at this. Yep. Is this army too good right now? I think the meta has shifted as well, you know as soon as gargants became a problem Everyone went okay that automatically became a thing that you had to deal with in your list So the first thing you ask yourself is okay. Can I kill Archeon the gash something with save stacking and gargants if I can't what can I do in my list to make me be able to do that So a lot of armies have had to ask that question switch to let's do that type of thing And then now um, some of them might be better at killing gargants or you know, that's I think why do you see the drop in Gargants having that high. Um The reason I think serif on is just like you said earlier. They're just so diverse You can bring lists that do so many things and especially with battle tactics and other other things like that Um Meta wise, I think a lot of people play them because they're strong obviously and they have a lot of things to do But also people just like playing serif on like there's so many even you vents. I know you love playing thunder lizards And I do so it's like it's it's a fun army a lot of people It's nostalgic and and if you have an army like that that's also very good And you have a lot of variants There's nothing better like I think of scaven as well like maybe they're not the best in the meta right now but for me, I love armies that you have 20 or 30 different models to pick from and you can find different synergies and you know play what you kind of want to play And then, you know, when when they're just that good, then that's when you see those types of armies Um, they're able to do that well and in in the meta yeah I it's to me I don't think like there's some stuff in this army But I'm gonna be honest drives me a little crazy Okay, yeah like But before I say that tyler, what's your general feelings on serif on? I'll get into my My little In a moment. What's your what's your general? Well rich hit the important point, which is that my anchor was many games on tts in 2020 against serif on which was Just a nightmare experience. So I have that. Yeah as my starting point. So relative to that serif on has felt Strong but not out of bounds to me when I played them But now I haven't necessarily been playing, you know, I haven't gotten many turns this year, unfortunately So I haven't been playing a lot of top lists, but I've been playing my friend dan. He plays serif on Quite a bit. I played to some of the players. I've been playing some good lists So I feel like I got a decent feel for what they do Playing the the coalesced option and starborn. That's the other one. I think The the summoning the toe point. Yeah, so they yeah, they felt more fair I think Like yeah, they these numbers are saying they could probably get Paired down a little bit, but I don't feel like they need to get paired down too much They they've generally felt sort of yeah right on the cusp in terms of whether they're in bounds or out of bounds Yeah, they they just wrote under the wave I honestly think like just because of how strong they were before People just immediately are just like oh, oh only 30 skinks not 40 or oh only two salamanders not three It was like or only 10 chameleons not 20. It's like yeah, but like that's still really good Like 30 skinks fully shooting with the mortals and charging With 3d6 and fully, you know what I mean doing that in combat is still very very good It's just not as good as it was so I just they they got underneath of the you know the s tier as you will which I'm not sure. I still think that they're s tier, but I could see them being in a tier as well You know and then again it comes to a lot of you know who's playing them What your comfortability is blah blah all that stuff but like In part of my experience with surf on ridge is watching you play them a lot on on the channel that I mentioned all the time on the show and You know you're clearly very experienced playing them, but usually the games like I I haven't watched You playing them where you play them well where I feel like you're doing things that to me feel out of bounds Relative to this is all in the context like we're not talking about casual play. We're all talking like competitive play yada yada yada like yeah, so For what that's worth. But yeah, we yeah I was just gonna say normally i'm playing jordan first of all so he's very very good But or his like his lumineff lists, uh, you know, but other times when i'm playing they're maybe not necessarily my top cream Tournament list that i'd be playing but even when I do play those. Yeah, I agree I'm not absolutely stomping him or those types of things because there there are still some lists that do that which The new dracothean salamander list is one of those ones that you know if you can give away first and double You're there's no army. I think that can take that like you're you're winning So it's gonna be the next I mean, I know we're gonna get in this list But I don't know if I would be curious like at a high level like the tlbr at the top here Like what in your mind are the archetypes? So like you look at the stormcast book four fulminator six long strikes That's an archetype. Yep. You can immediately run to right Are there so i'm guessing the sally spam would be one of the archetypes right now. That's the draco That's the draco list. Yeah, and you're you know ventia your boy smorgan is loving it He's running. I think like nine or ten salamanders and it's so so so good like like I said if you can give away first The only thing that beats that is obviously a one drop because you can't get it to a one drop But you give away first and then Yeah, double battle regiment, which you'll you'll see that the list I have so that's your one archetype And then your other archetype is your fangs 30 skinks two sally's two sally's and I haven't actually seen this really ran anywhere and I'm still this that's like my List that I still think is the best but I run gotrick in with it as well It was just so so good and I'm sure we'll chat about that later when it comes up as well And then your third archetype is your um thunder lizard Well, they're seeing then that one there's a bunch a lot of people are playing different lists You know some have two bestilladons some have one. I I'd personally like the one bestilladon with the more stagadons Um, and and then you still need to have you know at least one two pack of salamanders because All of that has one rend as you probably know vince because you play the the dinos a bunch There's a problem when you only have one rend So you need ways which one of my ways is to run the star seer for the plus one minus one save So that's a pick against gargants because if you can make a gargant minus one to save Now all your stagadons are two rend so And then yeah, so I would say that's kind of the third archetype, but and then codos claw. It's like There was a really good player actually at the boys that was running codos claw I came I think he finished top 10 and he was running a bunch of source knights and Um a carnosaur and and all that so like they're still really good too because just coalesced minus one damage Is just such a big deal So good. So yeah, I think all four and that's kind of what I'm onto like I'm playing thunder lizards And that's going to be my next kind of Venture everyone try to play in tournaments and stuff and see if which I know I can't because people have already been doing well with them So, uh, yeah, it'll be interesting but codos. I think still, you know, there might be some game It's obviously just I think the weakest of the four. Yeah Yeah, I I agree with everything you just said there my pickadillos with his army are so I'll say two things I see a lot of people often complain about Uh Their ability to protect utility heroes five wound utility heroes, right? Yeah, and anytime that conversation comes up I don't mean this against in the context of serif on this is just sort of a general thing like Oh, my utility hero gets shot and killed right And oftentimes what people run to when they have that discussion is oh heroes just shouldn't be able to get shot If they're near a unit, right? They want like the 40k version of the rule where you can't target the hero The unit's closer or whatever. Yeah, and all I can think in my head is do you want serif on to have a 70% win rate? Because that's how you give serif on a 70% win rate, right? You couldn't pick off their little utility heroes that have like insane force multiplier effects Yep, right Then that army would just go ham instantaneously if those if those little skinkerdos became immune To basically being removed, right? Yeah, um by anything except melee Yep, that makes me think of the mirror. That's what right away. I'm like I that's one of the matchups that I'm kind of scared of Right because or even the funniest thing was game five of the boys actually I didn't cast at all because Caleb had the lord of change. So I didn't want him to Unvind my comet and then be able to cast comet onto my heroes. So I just I just didn't even cast my slam I just with with held my one spell and there you go. Nice. Nice. Yeah, and I mean, it's it's it's one of those things that like um I just there always needs to be some way to pick heroes off It's just finding the right balance between making them not auto done with any amount of shooting Right where it's just like oh, I incidentally shoot at them and kill them Nobody wants that because that then becomes very unfun very fast Yeah, um, and then but also like so they need to be somewhat survivable but just not survivable under a concerted effort right like and and Seraphon are like the living explanation of why that's relevant, right? Yeah On it. That's just a complete aside like seraphon are just sort of the emblematic case of powerful utility weaker heroes What do you do? The same thing but what do you do to fix that though is like a question I would ask you like what like make the realm shape or only do one mortal instead of d3 or like to To get away make comet. I guess the comet is just so strong like against heroes and stuff I don't know that I that would be something for sure that could be addressed because it is very strong and I do a lot of people do hate that obviously all the heroes heroes been killed You're getting to one of the real challenges there, right? Which is even if you made them sort of untargetable it'd be it's hard to believe they'd be in a place Where they couldn't get incidentally splashed by mortal wounds like mortal wound aoe type stuff Which by the way, I'm willing to bet nerdle's gonna have a fair amount of two Yeah, probably yeah, yeah, like I mean money's on That that's gonna be the case So even if you even if you like the problem with that solution is it doesn't it wouldn't even fix the problem Right because all it would mean is that there's this cast of armies seraphon being one of them But you know probably new nerdle. There's a couple others They just don't need to target. They just go poop poop poop poop poop. Here's a bunch of mortal wounds in an area Your your heroes are all dead All right, like I don't know the Um, I don't know if you played like any new storm cast that we're running a semi strat like that at all Yet ridge, but you can absolutely between like the vexelor with the meteoric standard and like a prime or the night Venators or whatever with their orbital strikes like it's very easy to call down just area D three mortal wounds repeatedly In that army that you'll just clear out. Yeah, I targeted nothing Yeah, right other than a few minutes on the battlefield and every five wound hero is now dead Do you know what those are also vince great seraphon allies? Sure Yeah, oh, yeah, I've already jordan's got his dragonborn one and I've thought about but he's just like 205 So I'm like, yeah prime is obviously awesome You saw that in aos two people were running prime and fangs Like he was just the amount of mortals you do with exactly with comet with the rum shape with all these things Storm cast has maybe the best allies for it to do that. So yeah for sure. Um, yep So, you know, it's it's always a balancing act and I do think that there's probably still some work because lookouts are So completely irrelevant in the current 3.0 meta like I think we we we are still airing a little too much on the side of they're too easy to kill I don't know what the general fix to that is because there's there's a lot of different problems You have to attack there, right? It's not just targeted shooting. It's a bunch of other stuff. Anyways Back to seraphon my My main problem with seraphon is one Their utility buffs are too good. The things we just talked about like they're just too good. They're often too automatic Um, and they're just too stacky Now I like the design of this book. I I don't think it's lumineff bad But boy, is it a lot? Yeah, it's just too much right You can do everything It's too much and both Such a great way to say it, you know, it's funny because when I run the thunder lizards list that I run for me, it's all about playing the fun timmy time adventure where like how much can I make my skink chief on stag it on become a Engine of absolute and utter destruction to go destroy everything that stands in my way, right? And that guy went fully buffed. We'll just do an immense amount of damage Like a reasonable amount of damage the new mount trait. You must be pro the new mount trait 100% yes My god, just another another attack or or run in charge if you want it, which has some cool implications, but yeah so but like To calc the attacks on that guy I have to go every round and go. Okay. Well, I've got this bonus. This is just like Here's the one that's just to the jaws and then this one is to the guy and these are only to the mount and this to this And this and then this is adding to this and I'm like, okay, so I went from like A fairly underwhelming attack profile to like five attacks with this and seven attacks with this and four attacks With this all multi damage and it's like and I had to stack a ton of different stuff to get there Yeah, right But it's so much it's just so much layers on you have layer upon layer upon layer of rules It's not lumenath bad, but it ain't far off That's fair It should just be on rolls like a few of the like the five up or the Fives to wound doing an additional mortal right I could see that on a three up, you know what I mean like or The plus one to hit is a command ability. So it's a little different But sure that's I think the biggest abusive one in fangs and the skink lists are the mortal wounds But yeah, they just have everything even the star seer like Look at you with your war trainers tyler. You have to cast you have to roll now a three up to get 3d6 I just get it That was probably the most triggered that I've gotten against seraphon That's stupid auto 3d6 nonsense. Yeah, so good And then of course just salamanders I mean like I do I need to explain why a unit that that is so Devastating at range and then can charge and be equally devastating in melee and carries around you know Six albed of wounds with it assuming the the two-pack right is problematic like I just I just need to go they that can be pointed. That's pure points, right? What are they right now Four attacks threes threes minus 2d3 All right, the points how much oh one they're 120 They were 110 they went up 20 they were 110 and they only went up to 120 Which is yeah, they they could easily be 140 150. Yeah, yeah, okay. Yeah, that's that's a problem Yeah, I mean and you can see when people are spamming them like smorgans list shows you right away How how undercosted they are right whenever you're picking a non Uh battle line unit like that and just racing it to the moon where you're just like how many of these things can I just shove in here Because there's no downside to it right like I it's still I'm still getting enough. I'm not like horribly off off kilter on my wounds to points ratio Right and they're for up save like for up save and you there's easy ways to stack them There's easy ways to get after saves like Yeah, it's Yeah, and like that's not to say there isn't other units in the army that I wish would buff That there are still like again, this is a super deep bench But it is one of those books where there's like 80 million war scrolls in it So there's always going to be losers like they just they never hit them all with this right I do think it's shocking how the percentage that is playable Um, but you know, there are still obviously some that are that are lacking Yeah, I'm just pissed they they put up some units that like pterodons Like they were so close to being used and and I can still see a roll like they do mortals on the charts Like there's so many units like that But it's just like there's so many other units that you're just going to use instead Right flavor. I understand you're going to use them. I have awesome painted ones that I love and it's like I want to use them, but Salamanders are better or you know, I mean skinks or Chameleons or you know things like that. So I was just upset Why why did they increase points on even like source warriors like certain things like they didn't need to To put up, but that's all books that happens everywhere So it's like the source is the one that kills me more than anything Yeah, because I I truly have a deep love in my heart of source and yet Me too And yet here we are. All right. Yeah, let's talk a little sub faction action before we get to the lists Just so we just so we can set some some Uh some groundwork here. I want to focus in on two of these um So because I think these are the two that Have the most legs, but again to be clear I actually think all four of these four of their sub factions. I should say Are playable Uh that sound right ridge. I mean, that's Yeah, they're all definitely playable codles It's just the one that gets hurt the most because they used to want to really stack Command abilities on your karnosaurs and your stuff what you can't do anymore So that's you know, they used to be able to get plus one to hit six is to hit does two hits Um, you know, I mean mortals on hits like all that and you just can't do that anymore. So yep Agreed. Yeah, they're the quaddles quaddles the claw Is is definitely the Weakest of the four but the fact that I think even it has game as was shown because by the way that Quaddles claw list you're talking about did end up going Uh for one for one. Yeah. Yeah, so it's going to be another like in that the numbers We were just looking at with the four plus wins it's going to add into that category now the other ones. Um, Shorts is in the in the chat and he had said that basically add one more five up to that list we had and four more four ones Oh, yeah Okay So and the rest were all thunder lizard. So Uh to me the two top are thunder lizard and jacotheans tail though again I think all four are playable people might argue with my two picks But to me, I think these are the two that that just have the most legs Thunder lizard feels such a strong meta pick right now like it's Because it's under coalesced which coalesced reduces all damage dealt by one to a min one It's so powerful, especially in the Sons of Bama meta, right where you've got a bunch of two damage idiots Or the gate breaker even being at three damage reducing him to two is so crippling to what the damage output of what that thing does Um, there's a lot of elite units doing, you know, two and three damage attacks Taking them down to one two is such a Trastic change in what they're capable of it is nuts pigs. Yep pigs Taking pigs from two back to one massive massive massive massive massive impact, right? I've played this a few times. Yeah, and I mean this might be why I find It's terrifying a little more imbalance that maybe they are is I've had a lot of experience with thunder lizard Which feels strong, but mostly fair because you know, it's like melee. There's some shooting But yeah, iron jaws or other things takes down one damage But I've still been able to push through in some of the games against thunder lizard even with iron jaws But yeah, it's it's it's more challenging. But yeah, agreed agreed I don't like I you know, I've always been a coalesced thunder lizard person As I've said on this show like a hundred times because anything that lets me play big stompy monsters I'm here for it But you know the what it does is it in addition to being part of coalesced And hence having it went damage it also super charges the shooting of your bestilladons or your engines the gods Usually that it means your bestilladons, you know doubling up on on what they're capable of It is a great home for the skink chief on stag. This is usually what I end up playing So yeah I mean thunder lizard just does well in the current meta it puts Monsters on the table that as we mentioned earlier can power project Right, whether they be bestilladons or even the great bow off the stagadons Having the ability to to project some kind of ranged power and then still Survive in melee or do even decent damage in melee is a potent combination Yeah You know you combine this with sort of the framework of sallies or other things like that that are around the sort of Key linchpins of the army and you can really have a pretty scary scary scary force on your hands Yep, and just battle tactics getting extra points like you're you're pretty much always going to be getting extra points with everything It's not not difficult because they have so many ways to To do it. So yeah, yeah run three with monsters. Yep Battleline kill with monsters. Yep, you know, it's just like if it's possible to get a you know, sit on a point Monsters take over. Yep. Got that in the bag. Like you're just you're not only deep on what you can select but you're also good on Uh gaining the extra points So much so because of the ranged power projection out of your monsters You're generally not afraid of giving up The one VP a turn for losing a monster because you're definitely making your money back big time. Yep. Yeah So stags stags are minus one rends three damage on their Shots, yep three shots except the skink chief actually gets four because if he had the prime war beast because it adds to his Mount attacks which are part of the crew Which it's crazy four attacks. Well, you know, you need to give them plus one to hit Well, you don't need to but clearly twos is much better than threes But you know twos and twos minus one three damage if you had four attacks on him. That's you know, pretty good I'm grateful this book has a lot of minus one rend That's opposed to a lot of minus two rends and all the mortals that it does That's that's certainly one thing that stood out is helps keep it in check a little bit Is a lot of minus one rends Yeah, if the thunder lizards had ways to have more than one rend it would they would be very very strong I honestly think that the karnosaur. I don't know how the karnosaur doesn't have two rend. It's unbelievable. Maybe one of the biggest um What is that called things that that's stolen from the seraphot out a lot of worded out But how does the jaws of a karnosaur not have two rend is unbelievable? It's the the rend situation in general On the karnosaur has been one of the things that has bothered me Since we saw the very first scroll for the Uh for either of the the particular stories leaders on Yeah, uh karnosaur, right? Yeah, um, it's just shocking to me that a lizard Wielding like one of them is wielding a laser gun like let's be super clear here He's wielding a power fist effectively, right? Like they don't flavor it exactly like that anymore, but that's what uh You know because obviously the the one guy is what was his name, um the old letter that yeah the crock art wasn't that his name, right? The old crock yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so you know they were using Like science fiction tech like old one tech it was laser shooting like that's what they have spaceships folks Okay, this isn't like This is an army That literally has spaceships They figured into a recent story in uh, you know pretty pretty heavily Right of croak from the bridge of his spaceship being like fire all lasers at that point on the silver tower It was uh, you know, it's a major plot point That he had a star fleet ready to go. We we've made the joke before about battletoad gothic Being the next expansion game we want So, you know this dude has a laser gun which generally I mean I watch dune laser guns seem to rend pretty well Yep, they should and the other guy on the bottom is a t-rex, which I've also seen all the Jurassic park movies Those those jaws seem pretty sharp and effective So how this dude has the rend situation he's in is just you know, it's Very frustrating to me and by the way, that would be exactly the character you would give Super high rend too And it would be fine Right, and he's cool Like he's one of the coolest models people just because he had five damage He was one of those early beasts to come out that did five damage. So it was like, oh my god That's 20 damage, but it's like, you know, they hit on four So now it's okay in this edition because you can't get them to twos So You know, yeah, I don't know. I've tried to make my karnasaur work So many times might call him dorphy because he just seems to always fail at everything And never kill or do anything I want. So I think I might have the same model you do Similar experiences Yeah, the skank chief seg is just never let me down. Although he's got the same sort of overall rend challenges So is what yeah, he's he's great It's just you you can push his damage across the board up high enough in his number of attacks up high enough that like it Something's gonna get through and just blow people up Anyways, uh Okay, like the the the power that the skank chief one seg it on brings over the other guy Is he brings the skank keyword as opposed to the sora's keyword? Which is such a more powerful keyword to bring along. It's literally that by being a tiny lizard instead of a big lizard He's more powerful. See that's how it works At any rate the other one's dracotheans tale, which is obviously part of starborn So, you know dracotheans tale allows you to keep items off the table really good Where one of your other big threats in the world is shooting alpha, right? So as long as the salon can stay alive and or pop back up Which I know you had a couple experiences with that um, yeah It's you know, you want to talk about a really When you're when your salon gets alpha struck and you're rolling that four plus to see if he comes back Boy, oh boy. Is that an impactful dice roll? It's a mistake right away It's like, you know, like the feeling I can't even express the feeling of of that when Something happens like that like with sentinels that happened to me in my game too And it was like I was only within range of 20 of them. I know you can give speed of fish I know you can add six inches to the range I know your lower master is going to come down and cast limit light on my slam Like I know all these things can happen It's such a low chance that all of those things are going to happen But when they start happening and you fail, you know with a plus two with a re-roll to cat or a plus one with a re-roll whatever It's like So yeah, if you don't, you know, you don't want to rely on the four up come back But it's just another nice little icing on the cake. Like it saved me huge at Du Bois. So To be able to you know, yeah, what are you rich? What are you what are you unbinding on? Whenever someone goes first against you when you have a slon or when you have croak just plus one So you you can with the asterism you can if you have a turn in your start of the hero phase You can give plus one as well. So then you're on plus two Right. Um, yeah croaks plus two Always now isn't he got a new scroll, right? So the plus one is that coming from so doesn't the ash with the barrel always give you a plus one Just to cast so the Yeah, the slam that that's the slans war scroll is plus one and then your asterisms for another plus one and then That's pretty much all you're getting for unbinding and then you can cast less Equilibrium if you have a slan and croak or two slans, whatever then you can plus one to cast a number into all other ones But yeah, as soon as you but the cheeky thing too as soon as you have a turn You can get to plus two for the rest of the game if you keep doing sages staff, right because it's the way Yeah, but you but you can even do it to other models too Like you could even give plus one to cast to say your star seer and then because it's worded Um In the hero phase. So it's your opponent's hero phase. You can switch it back to this land in your opponent's hero phase So then say, okay, my slans getting the plus one to unbind But either way it's like, yeah, you can it's essentially plus two to to unbind You got that little window of vulnerability or particular vulnerability. Yeah off off of that Yeah, but you got a reroll arcane might pretty much one, you know, everyone's taken arcane might in this land for a reroll So it's like reroll up plus one Yeah, I don't know it's it's helped me a lot but at the same time, you know, it's magic everything can always fail Yep All right, well, let's dig into your lists. Shall we because that's what that's what we're here to let's Let's get to those lists Uh them them hot hot lists. All right So we're gonna start with a thunder lizard list Uh, and and I think this kind of shows a lot of different stuff in play So take us through this one. This is your this is thunder lizard your strats beast master Uh, take take us through this list. This is uh, all the drops just a million million drops Yeah, this is the nuzlocke shouts to smorgan. Uh, no, I um, like I said, I want to I want to play thunder lizards now There's so many good thunder lizard lists with you know, using just the slam the skank priest and the engine Three staggies two sally one sally Like you see that's like the classic. I think it was jack Armstrong way back in the day He walked a couple months ago. He went 5-0 with it I've seen it actually a few times in tournaments now people run it because it just works really well Right here brand something very similar. I think he went like 4-1 Uh, maybe 5-0. He won best overall. Yeah, uh, bruce city brawl. I believe yeah in states And mike vaginas. I just played my game four one like the best game I had from devoy's He was running that same list and I've I haven't actually played it myself, but I've played iterations of it Essentially, it's a one drop. So that's that's what is obviously so good about it So I didn't want to go the path of the one drop. I still think you need it's really good to have You know salamanders obviously for the wren. So for this list um You always have to ask the question about exactly giants like those heroes because they're still going to be around So I love having the star seer still so control fate for the minus one plus one save. Yeah, just so so good Um, I didn't go with I I have a few different iterations where with the skink chief that you're saying vents on staggy instead of One of the other staggered ons But uh, I don't know the points everything just didn't work and I wasn't able to get six heroes So I'm not able to get let's just say his points increase was unjust He did nothing wrong and he got whacked with like a big old points increase At the change. So I I get it. I get it. That was that was this is not justice It was my first thought when I read his points jump. Anyways, continue Yeah, he's and he's so good like you said with being able to stack everything you can still do that with the engine So I put the beast master on the engine engine is so good, you know being close to this land always having a chance on 3d6 to to get the summon is is massive because it's only I think it's under just under a hundred wounds So that's huge too. Um, again the slam is the general here with the arcane might because just the reroll and plus two is just so good throughout the game um The drops I wasn't too worried about I actually this was just cooler because I actually used the thunder quake Yeah, I saw that Yeah, so I was just like that's that's neat in this actually Yeah, that's from the the book. So essentially you can use an all unleashed hell or an all out attack Not just for free. It's like yeah So one of the so what do you have to have and that looks like you got two minimum three minimum? Yeah, it's engine. Um, I think one or two staggies and then a Salamander unit I think and then yeah, so I was just like that's nice and being able to get either of those buffs and then two staggies and Two sallies and then one of the big picks too is the five chameleons. So I haven't played as much thunder lizards So the other two lists I'm going to talk about are ones that I've played tons of games with and I've You know one tournaments and in everything with this one is one. I'm kind of I'm slowly starting to build now So this is what I'm I'm kind of wanting to to play but the camel is in thunder lizards Like just having any type of threat I'm sure you guys know just from playing games if you ask your opponent if they have any way to teleport and they Say no or they have no way of doing anything. It makes you feel so much better Yeah, you can just move your models where you want. You don't have to worry about anything So just having the five camos is just so huge in this list You know for savage spearhead to do some mortal wounds with with comet and the realm shaper as well You know all those types of things and then just friend and ridge at flying monkey literally all five games the first question that he got was do you have any teleports What what teleports in your army? Are you teleporting? Yeah, people just freaking out at serif on yeah It's a valid question nowadays. It's like it's not even like what um, it's not even do you have a teleport? It's like, okay. How does your army teleport? What can you set up in reserve? What can you teleport on me? Yes, exactly. How can you move for free? Go tell me So yeah, other than that it's like that exactly that and then the hunters as well Because you can put the staggies in hunters because they lose the beam of keywords So, you know, it's it's I I don't know. I did see uh, Caleb was one of his lists had that so I was like Yeah, that seems cool to to run with staggies not being able to roar the staggathons You know could be big So yeah, it's a bunch of drops, but it doesn't care if you give me first That's if if you're going to be a bunch of drops you better be able to do something turn one So this list can do things turn one So it's like if they give me first I can always do run three monsters or if I'm in range already I can Start doing some some work doing some damage Vastilled on shooting twice is obviously just classic You got to you get the sking freezes there to give them plus one to hit because you can't do all of the attack and then also Double shoot it Yeah, just I don't know it's gonna be fun. What's the beast master mount trait do again? So it gives you either a plus one attack or a run in charge. Run in charge. Okay. Yeah Or run it run and shoot in charge So you have two ways to do that too So I was even thinking if you run a risk it and you want to do safe roaches advance first You could do give beast master on your one unit and then do The three up for run shoot in charge from the skink priest and then run the engine because you don't need to worry about Running and shooting because it's at the start of the shooting phase So you could still run the three and then shoot with the other two If you're in like the the skink priest on staggy or something like that So there you know, I mean they're like just having ways to do that is crazy like like we said just so many Ways to get around yeah, there's so many crisscrossing overlapping potential buffs potential ways to play into To play into answers, but you play into options. Just need the skink keyword Yep Yeah, one of these keywords is a much higher value than the other in this army. There is no question about that Yeah, yeah, I like this. I like it in nuzlocke. I think it's a super fun list Um, this is a fun list to to to play I like that it has some limitations at the same time like you mentioned. It's you know, it's 85 wounds. It does what it does, right? Um, yes, you've got the potential backup summon with the engine, but you know, you're not going to bank on that, right? And uh, but it's great. This is it's a lot of fun. I dig this list and I like the use of the thunderclake slayers. That's fun Yeah, I wanted it was cool to use that the only thing I thought of too and chatting with other friends about Um, seraphon what base of my one buddy we he's a big seraphon guy too. So we always chat is like iron jaws now So it's like that's what he asked right away. He's like, what about mod crushers and pigs? You know, I mean like getting alphad and it's like With the realm shaper and the five guard in hunters You might be able to screen somewhat like what you need to do and then put your other single staggy That is in hunters. He could possibly be a little screen on the side And then if you get alphad, there's always a chance to double back You know curse on the engine is is actually much we didn't chat about this yet But all of the terrain in seraphon now in coalesced is plus one to your priests for mystical and everything has a six up ward So like my game four when I was playing against that Seraphon list he was making tons of six up wards Like it's just so nice having that like just as an extra add-on too. Yep running hammers and wow Yeah, it actually gets seraphon croak and just mortal wound to me like crazy Probably like 16 Wounds extra from the six up during that game. Yeah, I really had it up So nice. It makes a difference. Yeah, I agree. That's it. It's like an that's sort of one of those really Sneaky things that they put in there that was like, oh, hey You know Everybody's like, okay, whatever sure it gets those keywords. It's like no. No really think about what that's doing Yeah, uh Chalupa the mount trait for an engine of the gods is from the The white dwarf article for seraphon. Yeah, so that's where that comes from That's where the thunder quakes layers battalion comes from also. So check that out Yeah, and just the amulet on him is like just in nuts 14 wounds with the amulet minus one damage Like get out of here, right? It's like tough as a coffin nail that guy. Yes. Yeah, and I really wanted to I still think it's really Good and cool to run if you can get six heroes because then you can get the cloak of feathers on Your stink gink chief on staggy as I'm sure then so you've used it. Oh my god. So many times I love the cloak of feathers on him because he's just like I'm trying to picture how it works But yes having a flying Uh 14 inch move. Yeah. Yes. It's real good. It's real good turns out Yeah, uh, yeah, I love the I love that cloak on him I assume he just picks up the the staggon with his little toes and carries So what do you think this is gonna have a hard time with in terms of the cream of the crop, you know, ij sons I don't know. Yeah, like Lumineth is always just lumeneth. So it's low bravery. So, you know, it's always going to be troublesome with that The minus one damage honestly is really good. You know iron jaws like you said can still usually push through Um, that you know the destroyer maw crusher with faston if you're if you're not running the the amelot on him He's that's still five damage to your you know, that's still Going from two damage to one damage on a unit like pigs. You're like, wow, that's a big impact I just had on the game going from six damage to five damage on the destroyer maw crusher You're like, oh, I'm still dead. Yeah far dead. So yeah, maybe them. I don't know other than that I yeah, I mean looking so I'm curious where you would rate this just in terms of like competitiveness like looking at this It seems again, pretty fair. I get within the context of if I'm taking this to an tournament Am I expecting to go 5-0 with this? Not really. No, I think I'm gonna have a lot of tough games I don't have like we just talked about we don't a lot of screens here. I'm just seeing a number polls in this I mean it can do some things. Yeah, but it doesn't yeah, it doesn't really strike me as a really powerful list Yeah, it's so it's I would still definitely think you could go 4-1 with this 3-2 4-1 if you you know with matchups and it's huge matchup dependent with coalesced in general Right, and I would never like I said, I haven't played a ton of games with them But now that I have played against like some of the top lists that I've seen I was like, wow I was I was honestly very surprising when I played my game four and some of the scenarios that were happening I was also had salamanders. So it was like all my d3s were minus one. So that hurts a lot I was rolling a lot of threes actually so it was like go down to two but Yeah, like I said, it's it's I think still really good one thing you could change Would give it the one drop and then make it four drop. So you could do the command entourage and And battle regiment for four drop, which I don't know some of the other big lists They're going to be one or two drops. So four is still competitive for sure because a lot of other lists will be four drop but Yeah, you're right. There are going to be some lists even doc I'm thinking now too like there's going to be some lists that for sure are going to be pretty good against it But yeah, like I was saying it's more I want to try to run Something that is still fun, but still very competitive and I think after I get a bunch of reps in I can probably hopefully do well with it. Let's see. I mean it's going to change too You know being under nuzlocke As is the concept here, right? Like that's kind of the part of what you're going to get Tyler, right? Is it's not as tuned as it could be which you know, I know you and I are both a fan of right? Like it's more interesting to have this varied set of units. You have a different a lot of different plays You know, you are you aren't just like Wham jam slamming the button, right? You've got to like you do have to think your way through some stuff So I I appreciate that Going very high on the variety pack. I think you got nine different war scrolls here one two three four five six seven eight Nine different war scrolls. That's amazing. Like it tends to be like you get up to seven. You're doing well Yeah, yeah with variety pack. So that's cool, man All right, let's move on next list Uh, this is your Du Bois list, right where you took best general just this last weekend. This is so this is saraphon dracotheans tale Yep, uh, as we mentioned earlier, we talked a little bit about what dracotheans tale is capable of But uh, take us through this list. I by the way, I do want to shout out you already mentioned her But I want to draw everyone's attention again to deralia van denst Uh Whoa deralia Oh, you know, I don't know if anybody else has watched derallias and friends, but at any rate Uh, or associates. Sorry, uh, but it's like really really great YouTube web comic. So check it out sometime if you like that sort of thing Uh, but anyways the all I can think of because her name is so close to to the main character, which is derallias She's amazing in this list. There are so many wizards In the middle right now that are of such high value and the fact that she can just Be like click click boom. Bye. See you later boys. Have a good night Uh, is so powerful. But anyways, take us through this. I just I loved this pick I thought it was that's a hot pick rich. Yeah, and and I love the I love the allies I get teased often about using so many of like the different weird allies to bring in but She's just so good. Like I said, I could just start with her like I said I killed a hurricane and I killed the you know, some of these huge pieces cathol are came five was against a double chicken So right away. I think he used a five and a four of his destiny dice To make or was it five and a six? I can't remember to make saves on it So just chewing up two big destiny dice because that's going to be forward damage to him, right? Yeah, so she's amazing and then it's your classic Starborn loadout. So slam with your so in jacotheon instead of having arcane might they have a different command trait that gives Same thing a reroll, but it also gives you an extra spell. So the slam can have two spells So stellar tempest is just so good. It's a horde killing spell 24 inch I don't know how why they thought they needed this land needed to have a 24 inch horde killing spell With the astral bear. So it's going to be 30 inch So, you know, five five up mortals five up mortals. Yeah, so, you know sentinels Anything wardens like any I thought like a what was it? 30 crossbows like there are still some 20 30 patcher things So so good and then celestial equilibrium is in there just so I can give plus one to cast to other casters So I'll often actually give the asterism to the star seer if I'm within something minus one save So I'll give the asterism to the star seer. I'll cast saucers of equilibrium with slant So that astra star seer is then plus three because of the astra astral bear as well So again, I'm the little utility thing you can do. So the equilibrium is a great spell Um, the star seer four up cp three six charge so many things the skink priest I don't I don't know if everyone knows he's like the greatest model in the book Yeah, he has the plus one to hit until next hero phase which is Unbelievable on salamanders on on anything because It helps with how many shell it helps the units like salamanders that get efficiency from shooting and combat right And then three up plus one save run shooting charge, which is like how this little 80 point hero gives that many Things is just ridiculous um Yeah, and then what's the fifth hero is the astral bear himself So he gives adds six inch range to your spells. He gives a six up ward, which you don't have So very good for your heroes. Um, and then uh, plus one to cast so amazing And then you're I what is it? So it's 10 skinks 10 skinks five guard. Um, Which great for screening with your skinks. I often put 10 of the skinks up in the sky with my six sallies or four sallies I would often keep two on the board so I could give them that plus one to hit Um, man trait, um, or just if I was a little bit scared of possibly my slant dying Then at least I have two salamanders on the board Um, and then yeah the three by two sallies, which is that's the staple of the army So because this is a two drop you're often able to give turn one away um, you can screen out well enough that You can give away give away first and then if you like I said if you win the double then There's not many armies that can handle Six salamanders fully shooting into them and then next turn fully shooting into them again and then charging them, right? Right. Yeah, and by the way your earlier comment there Tyler about the you know the sort of proliferation of neg one rend in this book doesn't hold true when you're weighted heavily by an anchor of sallies, right? who are neg two shooting and neg two in melee and and and Tripping mortal wounds, right? So it's like it's the double whammy of of armor crunchers. So Yeah, yeah And the seer as well. I didn't say but the star seer has His two spells are like maybe the best in like the game So his is one he's chosen his hand of glory, which is the seraph on skink spell Which is a rear all wants to hit until next hero phase. So just one of the greatest Especially when you're hitting on threes or twos like it's just such a good Spell and on the bacilladon as well like just on anything with the skin keyword It's so so good and then his his world scroll spells plus one minus one save So he's the conduit for hand of glory if I'm outside of 24 turn one to give minus one save Or I just want to give something else rear wants to hit which in this case was Is the last thing in the list, which is the bacilladon which did most of a lot of battle tactic extra points and Ended up being amazing in my game five because you know chaos demons. He does three damage So, oh, yeah. Yeah, just so so good though. Yeah, I killed so in my game five I got so I gave away first and like I just said is what happened So I gave away first to Caleb he he went first anybody can and dropped all my stuff down Outside to be able to to shoot what I could all the screens and whatnot And then shoot all the long range at the chickens And then I left myself just outside of 18 of the of the chickens So that if he won't turn he's he's not able to mortal wound anything because I'm all outside of 18 He can do his portal with the gift change blah blah So then I met but then I ended up winning turn two prior So then all of those salamanders went in I exploded the lord of change the kairos and the changecaster And it was Gigi All right, so on salamanders I'm sure that folks have mentioned this my friend and like I said place several on the time This was something that he had mentioned to me a while back Keep them at the current point cost simply make them nine inch range Does that is that going to is that toning them down too much? Is that about right? So they got what a 12 inch range right now, which allows the telephone range right now. I mean look I here's my here's my issue with that fix Okay The idea what what what's obviously being tried attempted to be fixed there is The drop and pop right like that's what that's what there's it's the problem is that feels terrible Okay, yeah, it feels like now something you can't use unit when they did that to the pistols of The ko boys you were just like oh, okay So these guys suck now with a core mechanic of the army like nerfing you out of using one of your main mechanics Isn't the right way to fix things We also have the example of that daughters of cane war bands the canine shadow stalkers Where the range is like six inches and I had heard through the grapevine that it didn't start at six inches right right right I just I I hate that as a fix Right because it's like oh, hey We're going to fix your army by giving you a total non bow Like non bows don't feel good better solution Either fix the scroll So that they are not doing overwhelming damage in both shooting and melee right like just weaken them in one of those two places because again Units in general unless they are Exorbitantly expensive Shouldn't be good In both shooting and melee. I don't think I'm like You know, I don't think this is some kind of secret magic here, right? This is pretty obvious You know If sentinels at their same points cost in melee also made like three attacks at threes threes neg two Two I'd be like whoa, what? What is going on here, right? Like it would be a huge problem The only saving grace if there's any to sentinels is that if you do get into them They just die in bucket loads, right because they're just they're just dorks on a five up save who like They get you with boot daggers, you know, but in star in starborn to be fair vince They only have three attacks instead of four in combat It's a good point It's still three attacks with d three mortals on sixes blah blah all the same stuff. But yeah, it's it's insane Yeah, so like either the answer is like let it work. Let them drop and shoot. It's a cool thing right just Either wheel some of that back in like that is to say either like the damage needs to come down or the Ren needs to come down or something right like I don't care like I'm not I'm not gonna propose the exact solution Make the numbers worse somehow Yeah, if you're if you only had say, you know force instead of six salamanders Yeah, that's gonna be a lot less output. So I I think it can just be pointed out But right you change the scroller making more points. That's it Because if you're gonna be good in shooting in melee, then you should have points costs to reflect that like I'm cool with it if you're paying Accordingly for it. Like there is a reasonable points cost where salamanders aren't broken. They're not you know, they're not Like they are just some wounds on a four up save right like let's be fair here Okay They're just at the moment hyper efficient wounds on a four up save especially if you can move shoot Charge kill. You're just like they're like the langoliers in that crappy tv movie from the nineties, right? Chewing up So, you know, like there's there there is a points cost where they become reasonable playable, but not You know spammy Yeah, I'm just sort of Still very strong. Still very strong. Like you said just a unit that can shoot and then be that good in combat You know, I guess you you know, you could change a few things, but Yeah, and like I said, I'm fine with either But yeah, like if the answer is we want to hold them at their current points costs Because we feel like that's a valid place for them to be Yeah, give them one attack in combat. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, then just cool knock down their combat attacks, right? Like just Take that out of the equation. So they're a shooting unit that isn't as good at fighting. Okay Fine, great a plus like I'm back on board. You know what I mean? Like I'm there are lots of ways to fix things Just do any of them It's just do any of them weren't they 80 points when the book came out That sounds right. Yeah They were and and then no one ever could buy a salamander for seven eight months So rich what have you I found the most challenging Sorry, so you mentioned lumineff. Yeah with this with this list Yeah, so one drop one drop lumineff in on some battle plans if I can deploy, you know far enough away um Yeah, jordan beat me in an rtt with his techless lumineff build against uh pretty much this list I changed one little thing, but um, so yeah, I think that's one of them something that can kill this land So because you can't really hide him in certain depending on terrain Uh, what you can get what like 12 long strikes now or like shooting twice and blah blah You know some of the some of the long range stuff um KO sometimes Could be but now I can just garrison him with the the five guard and at minus one to hit I just don't think they can You know they all hit on threes and it may be too damaged, but I don't know. Yeah, there's a couple things, but so let's say somebody has I will call it an average matter Let's say 10 15 judicators as opposed to like even even not six lock strikes But something slightly below or a little below six lock strikes. What's the target priority? list so if depends if it's one drop or if it's If it's if it's one drop then You're hoping you win the roll off so that he has to deploy first if it gives you first It's two drops so you can deploy your other drop which isn't doesn't have the slam And then he would put his list down and then you can measure from the judicators So that's always a big problem is is knowing kind of where things are going to be if you can't Tell where like certain units like that are going to be then you're probably going to get to pick you goes first So that's always I mean, I mean let's say I've got Uh, what would be a different example? I'm trying to ask you what he should shoot at should I shoot it? Yes, exactly. That's oh how much until you should start shooting other things or how If you've got if you're an army with an average you haven't leaned heavily into shooting You're not you're not the shooting alpha. Where are you putting a precious shooting resources to damage this list? Yeah, okay. Yeah, I don't know the the the bestilladon's on a one-up save He's going to be on the floor and then there's going to be a couple to tens of skinks Maybe the other heroes that's the one beauty of having the the salamanders in the sky is that if you can't kill the slam then Your your hammers are the things that you want to kill are on on the table So it's I would I would guess like it it's as usual. It's the skink priest the skink star star series on a six wounds He's a five wounds. But yeah, so yeah, so I would probably shoot the skink priest is probably the first target The seer actually is quite a bit of utility as well The actual bear too for summoning because he gives d3 summoning as well So the lessons I've learned against. Yeah, is I need to prioritize In general folks should prioritize actual bear. I would get it's on a three at base or four at base for But all these things are all these things are going to be in the rom shape are usually as well Which is It's dicey because everything's garrison and everything will have lookouts there from the source guard So everything is minus two to hit. So if you don't have a way to get plus two to hit, it's Yeah, it's it's tough because you've got a lot of these like you have Output from all over the place, you know, three by two sally's You've got deralia in a lot of matches. She's going to be doing work. You've got the mortal wounds from the spells That's going to be doing like and then you're summoning more models You've got pretty good durability and the vestilladon. I hope it's not double tapping. It's so good. No, you can't It's only only in thunder lizards. Yeah. Yeah, I think this is the double tap. Okay. Yeah, so yeah It's uh, it's a great list a lot of I really always love lists that have like they're not leaning too heavily into one piece, you know You've got good pieces all over the place, but you're not leaning heavily. You don't like have this death star That bellicor can tie up or whatever. Yeah, like this is very anti bellicor because it's three units of fire-breathing madness Yeah, yeah, it's uh, it's scary to be sure. Um, all right, let's talk the last list So this is your red harvest gt list Uh, again, you went best general But this was a fangs of sotek list. We haven't talked about fangs too much But this is uh, obviously fangs had a lot of play in uh in in the before times Uh, so so take us through this this this guy and how you think it's you know where it's playing differently Yeah, and this one's still my jam Like I said, this is my the one that I like playing one that I've played the most and I still think has a lot of legs and it doesn't get it nearly as much love because Once this skink blocks went down to 30 People just for some reason thought that they weren't as good as they were which and and it helps with the the save stacking. So Yes, the skinks aren't as much output because all of those no-rend attacks are going to be saved on two ups So you're relying on the mortals. So against yeah arcane on in the gash On a one up rerolling ones then yes, you're not going to do any damage because the four up mortals as well But that's why you have the other two units of sallies and in this list has gotrek So it's I like this is a lot better because it has an answer for everything It has the multitude of shots from the 30 skinks. It has two times two sallies to still do insane damage And then it has gotrek as well To be able to You know get into things in in kill stuff Uh, this still seems scarier to me on paper at least yeah, and it's a huge deterrent Just having gotrek people don't want to come into you like like iron iron jaws and things like that like That's the last thing a mock rusher wants to go into right, you know what I mean Only being able to take one damage and having a three upwards safe Yeah, the 16 inch ginger zone right in the middle of the board. Yeah, exactly and he four inch move 12 inch charge Yeah, yeah, and then that's that's the reason I bring cogs as well So because it's an eight inch rerollable So so often the time i'm staying outside of that nine and then it's going to be an eight inch rerollable charge So that's one of the other really nice pieces of this list um And then as well because gotrex was slow and you know Big maps with like what's the one with the six points that one like maps like that um You have mobility in the teleport and and the and the running around to be able to Deal with gotrex not getting into things So even if you're putting him out to be a bubble of avoidance Your others you're going with just your 30 skinks and your salamanders and stuff on another place So it's huge to get the run shoot in charge in this list on the salles because then you can at least run them This so in fangs turn one they get plus three move as well, which is also really good because then your Um salles are going to be going 11 inches plus run. So 17 inches you do the constellation for plus one So they're going to be going eight What is it? Yeah, 18 inches plus shoot and charge so and then you teleport your 30 skinks as well So that's one thing getting in and then gotrex. Yeah, so there's so many ways to kind of play this one um It's completely different than the drako because the drako you're just dropping down in Merking stuff, but it's also a two drop because everything can just go into double battle regimen. So sure Yeah, it's it's it's so good and it's so there's so many little nuances with this list that I love The only thing is it takes a little bit longer to play So that's one thing why the reasons I took the other list to devoid because I didn't want to move around all the skinks I didn't want to parting shot actually takes a lot of time because you're doing it in your opponent's phase Um, you can parting shot with the 30 skinks and unleash hell with salamanders and if you get charged So it's a lot of dice in your opponent's turn, but parting shot is just so so good You don't get the minus when to hit so they're still hitting on fours Um, you can deny battle tactics with it. I have so many times people charge your battle line unit Even 10 skinks you shoot them four up you run away. They there goes broken ranks Like yeah, I think that was one of the battle reports you guys did where that came up And I think you failed that but if you'd gotten it, it would have been huge. Yeah the parting, but yeah I'm really strong a lot of threats Yeah, it's and then the load out like I said is very similar this one actually I went for the I was in between the star seer or the ashworth bear because they're both about the same price And the star seer just gives so much utility But the extra d3 summoning like I needed to have the 3d3 summoning per turn Um And the seer didn't give me that he gave me the plus one minus one to save But I already had my anti giant anti hero thing like I said I really like that minus one to save spell for giants and heroes like that But gotrick is a big enough deterrent to or it's giants and stuff, right? So or Nice So Have you ever tried the croak crawl? Is that croak with the slam and a bunch of guard? Basically or or just croak and 15 yard just marching up the board Yeah, so the sensor. Yeah, I've played I've played 10 and He still didn't die and he just didn't get targeted So it was like it was a lot of points into doing that and now that he's only 16 inch max for the slash for deliverances You throw I get it you throw him up in the board and he can do mortals to a lot of things But I feel like there's just so many ways around that now now that he can't like bail went hop off sticks recast it move You know what I mean get effectively like 30 something inches by bail when hopping around It's just not as viable I know It's still a really good list and does a lot of mortals and you can still bring in salamanders You know whatever else you want to do to to bring mortals and it can be really strong still It's just you don't have If you notice my lists have like at least three or four hammers and all of them because it's it's damage It's like what wins you games with these guys is just damage So yeah Little more that star and kind of yeah power in one place I thought it might be more viable in 3.0. You know, we've talked a lot about power square inch Oh, we have got smaller boards. We've got fewer objectives and table all the sequel You know all of that and yeah, so if you've got croak Or salon or whatever marching up with 1015 guard Hanging out the middle of the board sort of dominating that middle part and then yeah 16 inch projection from there I mean, that's you know, still good. Yeah, a really good bubble. Yeah, where you can tap like I experienced I played it last week And yeah, it was 15 of them and croak and at the end of the game I like had the thought well, maybe I should have you know, I as usual you think Target everything else let let that do what it's going to do. But Really that I Looking back on it. I thought I should have targeted The guard to get croak to get to croak as quickly as possible Yeah, because it that was the piece of the list against my hammers list Wasn't a fully decked out hammers list, but still pretty good That was doing by far the most work and it was a very close game at the end But it was all those mortals from croak and yeah that that lost me that game ultimately If you're scared of the mortals for sure Yeah, like if you're a list that has vindictors or annihilators or anything with like a good save or anything like that then He's going to do work against you for sure And I found too with with with croak now that you can't do the bail when hopping that type of stuff Good players will well the people will just stay at 16.1 away from croak or 16.1 away from things So they know they're not going to get the mortals in the hero phase because he can't hero phase move in any way Um, but yeah, and it's funny you say that because actually we've had a couple comments and someone I think messaged me on twitter Um to ask if I played that to play if I played the croak and slam in the the source guard And I was like, yeah, I can't I'm planning to at some point. They're like, yeah, I'd be sweet if you could play on the channel So it's one of those things I was like, yeah, I think eventually I will um, and you know, there's definitely some viability to it Um, but yeah, I just haven't really had the chance to yet, but yeah fair enough. Yeah Awesome. All right, let's move into some final questions some open discussion. Okay, cuz I just always being mindful of the time Uh, all right, so Discussion Hammers, we've mentioned salamanders. We've mentioned some stegodon options bestillodons, right? Will sorus ever be good They're just worse skinks. It's so unfortunate Like even 30 I have a belief that based on this book There's not really a feasible points. You could put the sorus at that would make them the viable choice Like I mean obviously within reason, right like Make them 10 points for the unit like okay. Yeah, we get it. Ha ha. Yeah, right like Because of the keyword bingo the power that skink brings versus the power that sorus brings It's almost basically impossible in this book to point sorus somewhere where they could ever be an actually competitive choice because of how They designed the core foundation of the book. What do you think about that? that belief I think I honestly and I've I've Went up and down with lists that have 30 sorus because I really think that they're a good um anvil I still think that they can be good. There's so many ways to get plus one to save Skin keyword. Yes is better, but you still have for example the star seer. He gives plus one minus one So you could give the plus one save to them You know, they're all four up save So they're 32 mil like you're not going to be doing too much damage The star priest still gives them sixes to wound to an additional mortal There's a there's a bat rep where I use them against feck actually and I got the 30 into one of the terra guys And I and I took it down because it was we were just joking around. I was like, yeah, this is really good But it's not as good as skinks. It's like, you know, I mean, it's the same thing Essentially, it's just a little bit worse, but all it's because of the buffs that you still can do So yeah, I couldn't get the the plus one to hit buffs. So I would do all the attack essentially But yeah, I I think they can be good because in coalesce to your minus one damage They have a four up save base You can give a mystic shield and control fate that you can give them four up plus two save um So I think there could be a place for sure. Maybe in coalesce claw or in thunder lizards, but um in in Starborn, I I don't think there's ever a reason but yeah in summary, it's just yeah They're just more expensive skinks with less with less keywords like you said. Yep I think we've already answered this question But we got into it quite a bit more than I was I was I just wanted to make sure we touched it But you know skinks still good and I I agree with your your take by the way Like there's still a home for a unit of 30 skinks. I think that in the right list that can still absolutely be a viable unit And and you've I think articulated that pretty well Um, the nature of sometimes you just need weight of dice Right, there's a there's a big value to that. Um, they still absorb buffs really really really well Really really really well Yeah, and So I you know and they're still relatively reasonably costed too Yeah, they're so cheap, right so Yeah, I mean not as cheap as they were but yes. Yeah. Yeah Comparatively. Yeah people were freaking when they they were 60 points. So they went up 15 So I was like, okay. Wow. They went up. What is that 25 percent? So I was like that was like the biggest percentage jump of everything. It's like They were 60 points like that's crazy Like now they're 75 and I still think 225 for 30 of them is just still so good But yeah, just having the one unit of them. Yeah, just so good. Um, what was I going to say? Yeah, the ability to buff them and here's what I was going to say So in aos 2 when I was playing fangs. I played I so many people were playing the 40 blocks 40 block 40 block 40 block or 40 block 40 block three sallies Or you know what I mean? I finally got to 40 block 20 chameleon skinks and three salamanders was my final one because you could teleport the skinks Run in charge to salleys bring down the camo So you could do all three of your person to an area and it was nuts So I still think it was viable to run the two or three 40s because you could give them a bunch of pluses to save And they could actually use them Um, but the reason the thing that I did differently was I always played always played with moonstone clubs in bolt spitters So this is the one that's not defensive It's they're a six up save instead of a five up save So you couldn't get them to a four up to a three up to a two up save like with all of the craziness But instead of fives and fives, they're fours and fours in combat Right So in shooting you give them the plus one to hit and cast hand of glory on them So there's fours re-rolling ones to hit fives to wound with six is doing additional mortals So that's already very very good With 60 shots, but then when you charge them in You can usually get tons of them in because it's 25 mil base. You're usually doing plus one to charge 3d6 charge Whatever else you want and it's then fours and fours So it goes just to threes re-rolling ones to hit fours to wound with six is doing additional mortals, which is insane amount of damage insane amount of saves they need to make and then you know, whatever 17 20 mortals or whatever it is Because threes re-rolling ones to hit puts through so many more of your wound rolls Right, right, right Yeah, so that's the one thing I noticed when people because everyone played them Moonstone or sorry, not not moonstone. Everyone played with attackers in the fields. Yeah, which was like in my opinion was I get if you want to have one of each if you're running multiple But when you're running one, I was like no, I'm going damage and be also with parting shot Like I'm hoping I roll that four up if I do get if something does go south I always have that chance to roll the four up and not you know And and run away. Yep. Yep. So skinks. Yeah, I still Love them nice nice. All right What units simply aren't worth it like in the current book? What could you see yourself? Never putting in a list Oh, I want to say like ripperdactyls, but I feel like they could still Maybe do something we have smorgan over here in the chat by the way saying the pterodons rippers and krueger Yes, I know I'm pronounced them like that. I'm going to keep doing it Krueger are all good smorgan I was talking to smorgan before this actually and he told me that The crocs a gore list like three times six crocs a gore and I was just like what I want to see this like I haven't really heard that but I could see crocs. We're still being all right But I don't know there's almost every unit can still kind of work because of the keywords and You know knights have a ton of attacks. So they're still amazing with the star priest buff The dreads orians still amazing shout out to emma at the debauched her. Yeah She was running the dreads or in it. It was just so cool to see For one. Yeah, she went for one. Yeah, she only lost to carl with carl's a double mahr crusher I know it was it was the battle line mission as well. So I know the pigs were counting. It was whatever it was A good list is that what it was? Yeah, so carl it was hilarious because carl had to she so because she won she made carl She said that carl had to make a twitter account Which so he has a twitter account now follow him carl to borrow or borrow the carl I can't remember Um, and then she had to publicly tweet for his first tweet that the dreads orion is still a competitive list That's great. Nice. So yeah, so but to get back. Yeah, I think honestly almost everything Can be better than some beast of chaos or some like of other books units It's yeah, like the the bench is so deep that literally you could have it in there because of what you could mix it with Right, it's like you've got this ingredient. It might not be up to snuff But the rest of what you're putting in the soup is so delicious. It's like, ah, it's fine These mushrooms aren't the best mushrooms. They're like average quality mushrooms But everything else I've gotten this soup is so delicious. So fresh. No one's gonna notice. It's cool. The mushrooms will still do their job Exactly that. I couldn't don't think you could have done a better job without analogy Ridge were you were you around when dan I can remember his last name was pared and the pared and list. Yeah. Yeah, can we still tear tear dand it up? no longer thing I Because of the coherency Six of them is tough. They do shoot so even six or nine like they do shoot actually I think so. Yeah, still can be I think so because they still shoot a bunch of bullet shots You can still give them plus one to hit rear all ones to hit you can give them six six six to one do additional mortal You know, you can still give them all those same awesome buffs You can run them with the tear dand chief to give the mortals on two ups for a cp Not clearly as good nearly as good as it used to be because yeah Is that is he the priority role? Is that dan from priority role? Yeah priority role. Yeah. Yeah, I love it So that's one of the other podcasts actually I used to listen to I don't know if he's Okay, that's why I was like I used to love listening to like I heard oh and some of the other guys on there Um, but yeah, I used to run tear dands in two. They were amazing Just because the coherency six or nine of them with that two up mortal bomb Were really tasty, but yeah, I don't know everything kind of can have a place. I think but maybe not amazing In the next book This isn't on my discussion list, but you triggered the thought Like seraphon will get a new book at some point, right? Everybody will get a new book at some point It's the inevitability of time it continues advancing In the next book Do you want to see the old school units? Of a mixed unit of krueger and skinks come back like back in uh Fantasy battles days where you would have little skinker dudes And then your your krueger swinging over the top Do you want to see that maybe we've we've got mixed units still in the book, right? We got sally's they bring little skink friends along Why can't the krueger break skink friends? I I love it. Yeah, I love it and I love them Synergizing with skinks as well. They're they're cool as well. Like obviously a lot of models I just wanted to have a new sculpt as many people do but Lost kingdom. There's a lot of good third-party places that make them really cool models Um, but yeah, they're one of them But like you said earlier, I think the biggest one is I just want source warriors to be good again Like mick I have like I think 80. I think I have over 80 source warriors Like 40 or 50 of them painted to a pretty good standard and then the other 40 just You know, I'm using them now as my engine summons essentially, but um, That's the one unit if you ask me what, you know could be good just an all-saurus The old suncloth battalion I we used to be able to run that gave them rend and Whatever I love the sunblood like they I don't I don't understand why they needed to Do that mini nerf to him. He was already never used Um, it even now it's like he's works with the source keyword. So you're not ever going to see him, but Yeah, I like the idea of running the sunblood was always such a cool cool model I used to in before when it was what they lessened rend by one So the sunblood lessened rend by two He was like one of the og wants to do that and then sixes to hit did d3 hit sixes to wound Did d3 more of us he had his rules were just super cool And then he had sent a weakness which was was it like I think it was re-roll hits to a unit And then they changed it to plus one to wound I believe and then now now it got nerfed to something else But he was one of my favorite models Um, so I would love to I have the other one But before I got into conversions and stuff So I would absolutely love for that to happen and then convert up like a super cool sunblood Shout out to brian s in the chat by the way who said I have 140 sorus That's a no you got me beat brian Yeah, because I think I think I have 50 I have 50 painted because I wanted to be able when I when I build it I wanted to be able to do Like if when I put the army together I was like I want to be able to do a full Battleline spread of sorus if I should feel like it right so it was like 30 10 10. Okay cool. That's covers that right Yeah Obviously the stegodons were the real focus, but you know, there we are I got all my stegodons, by the way are like all of my All my seraphon are old school like fifth edition lizardmen type of models. So I have the old The the sorus. Yeah, the stegodons are metal. Yeah, they're really I could kill a man with my stegons Like if you piss me off in the game, I'll just throw a stegodon at you. You're dead You're instantly dead. That is that that thing is a deadly weapon This is like five pounds of sharp pointy horn coming off pewter. Yes I have one I have one of the pewter ones and that's where with this new list I'm thinking about Well, I want to get a new one just because it doesn't match my scheme at all And it's just an old pewter model makes more sense if you're running all of them like that Yeah, well, yeah, none of mine stand out right because they're all the same size because I've got Uh, I have two regulars and then the chief And so the sense they're all metal the only one the only new plasticky thing I got is I do still own the old Uh dude on karnasaur, but he's too comically small. I don't know if you've seen the old metal I have I have one too. So how I got into the army actually is one of my friends Brothers got rid of all of his Lizard men So I was a scathing player like I played all scathing in fantasy as well So he I got just a ton of source. He went to our dreaded enemy Yeah, exactly. I was just like dope dinosaurs. Oh, they're cool. And then next thing, you know, I uh Yeah, so I still have well, I have not nearly as much as you but I have like, you know, five or six thousand points of scathing um, but Seraphon is getting up there now because I've been buying over the years I probably have the same now about five or six thousand the seraphon too when you get a deep passion in an army It just builds you can't you can't it just happens. It's it's the inevitable ability of time Um, yeah, the old the old karnasaur by the way the old metal karnasaur for those who don't know He's probably about as tall as bastion is now like he was on his karnasaur He would look like he's riding like a raptor in You know sort of modern probably it's been anyways. Yeah fun stuff I love the old sorus so much more than the new sorus because the new sorus looked too weedy and skinny And weak to me where the old sorus were like these little These little muscly tanks, but Yeah, and the knights, uh, I just uh the knights are just the worst I'm eventually I want to play coattles and get the drake spawns because they're just so cool I love the the cold ones from the drake spawn nights. So That's gonna be a project eventually. Um, unless they get new scops my sorus knights are Have skinks on top because I'm using Uh, what were they teachy-wee cheese raiders or whatever remember the dogs of war unit that was like skinks on Cold ones. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, so I just used them as my I I had them and I didn't have any of the Sorus knights. I was like these guys are my knights. These are my sorus knights. They're just very they're just very effective They just have everybody thinks they're sorus. They've tricked everyone. All right. Anyways Um We talked a little bit about this last question I have but it but I'm curious to know your your actual, you know Sort of go-to strat How do you protect your tiny but powerful utility heroes? You know, we've talked about the skink pre showing up in the list We've talked about the skink stars here, right? Like these guys are huge force multipliers in the army But in the end they are not Uh You know, they're not tough like let's be honest if they can get targeted by heat they can die So how do you what's your general plan for protecting them? You have to Think about which ones you're okay to lose so Skink priest is usually one very important one nicely. He's the smallest model So a lot of the time he's behind my realm shaper engine. So unless I'm playing sentinels or Well, unless I'm playing sentinels then he's gonna be okay Um, a lot of the other ones too, like I said before when you they're in the garrison people will often Think that they can kill something and they can't because it has Plus or minus two to hit plus one save all at defense for plus two to save six upwards save from the ashlet with bear So sometimes I will put certain things into the realm shaper Just don't having an idea that if I lose them like the star seer, he's not integral to the list He gives me the minus one plus one save He gives me the hand of glory, um, you know, if he dies he it's not game over where Even if the skink dies, it's not game over But I would much rather lose the star seer or doralia I put doralia lot in the realm shaper and she got popped off once turn one which was like, okay That sucks, but you know, I way rather have my skink priest or my ashlet with bear or something, you know Sure, or what popped her off? What did it? Uh, that would have been what was it game three? Fuck, I can't I can't remember. I think it'll probably it'll probably come back Yeah, some type of shooting for sure. Um, but again, that's like something that he's oh it would no post nicks post nicks Okay, yeah, so I was playing I was playing and and I was in range Uh, he was one drop. So I was like I put her in there I'm like if you waste your 15 shots in your face to shoot him. That's a whole cp You're not doing anything else. You know what I mean? You can't get really really get out of their threat range Anyway, it's 32. So yeah more with the the iron scale Exactly for the shooting I I or sorry for the hero face shot I could have but then I was like and also cpy So, you know doc doesn't get the most cp. So, um, yeah, so but otherwise. Yeah, keeping things safe It's just yeah either behind the temple in the temple to garrison or source guard obviously with the slant Um or terrain just you know using terrain. I love I love places that like I'm so used to I'm a bit of a terrain snob. I guess you could say Just because jordan has such beautiful terrain and we play on like such beautiful boards that That will one thing a funny thing about the boy is actually the table that won best terrain Uh, it was table one And it was all of the printable scenery elven table. You probably recognized how it from watching the Yeah, if you know what I mean So it was like all nicely painted green like same as jordan's that he has and then it actually had the season of war Objective markers the ones that like jordan made on his store So I was it was funny because the guy who came up and asked he was like, oh What do you think like I made this table? I was like, oh, this is great Like we I play we play on a very similar like all the time and he's like, yeah these uh the objective markers were are awesome like Like not knowing that jordan is standing right there and he's the one that he bought them from So jordan's just like yeah, like those I made those and he was just oh, what do you mean? And he's like, yeah, I made those and then I look at him like they're actually nicer than the ones we use Because the ones we use are like the shoddy like ones that he didn't sell or whatever on his store. Sure Just so so funny but yeah, it was uh Terrain is is always a thing, you know people always talk about tournaments. It's always so nice to have Like nice terrain at tournaments 100% cannot cannot agree more Yeah, cool. Oh, I've got a few. Yeah hit me. I know we're coming. I know we're kind of on time So real quickly What are they called bound in the spells? Yeah, that's it. What are your thoughts on on those rich? Yeah, they've changed a bunch now So there's a couple cheeky ones that I've thought of Purple Sun because I think it now it it goes wild. So you can just buy that one with this land So I thought about that. I think it's pretty good, man Again, I played that last week and it did a lot of work to my stormcast. Yeah for mortals, right? It's it's one of those ones. He kept popping off that six for the d6 Oh, wow. Yeah, if you can if you can roll that then it's going to do real work Yeah But other than that bound it's like usually wizards are going to be within 30 of their spell. So It's not the biggest thing when it came out. I was kind of excited just because bound on the spells were broken before So I was I was excited that they actually fixed it properly because even with Croak bale and hopping 40 skanks all these things bound geminids was the as you guys know There's the dumbest thing ever like how that was a thing for so long is just wild and how effective it was being able to double tap and blah, blah Um, so yeah, I was a little excited to see kind of what they did with it But overall not crazy crazy powerful But I don't know what are your go-to endless spells in a surf on this or do you have I saw cogs You know, but are there yeah, particularly in the spells that you think will find their way commonly into a competitive list I think just the the ones that are already good. So, you know What's it called or emerald life storm? I've seen one of the guys who was running that I could maybe see that with 30 skinks or with the the sallies could be interesting You would need to roll a three to get a sally back, but still interesting Burning head 20 points. It's just you know a source to and it's interesting because This force actualist bear does give six inches to cast So he's one of the only models in the game other than like what archon and some other ones that actually extend the range of endless spells So, um, you know, a lot of them are a little more viable I've used shackles before but just so many models Well, not even so many shackles. I think is still really good because giants a lot of things that don't aren't have Don't have pluses to cast because they're on a seven, right? So You're often able to get them off. So I think that'd be they're pretty good as well but Yeah, like other ones that are good in other armies. I think just having the range increase Okay, we haven't talked much about croak. So How competitively viable do you think croak is right now? Like is it just that there's too much shooting and that if you get through the five star scarred, you know There's too much risk or too much shooting can burn down five stars guard too quickly Yeah, croak has a soft spot in my heart because of how good he was before but he also has a very bad spot because last year at grand clash I brought him to grand clash and I had five just five source guard with him Game one against ko and this was before you didn't have your realm shaper. So we rolled off I lost the roll off. I didn't have my realm shaper. So I had to deploy and Um I was able to keep croak in cover. This was before aos 3 so it was like different rules and whatnot But he had his 3d6 mechanic. So I got the iron cloud came in the warp landing vortex 20 thunders popped out Everything fully shot into him. So he's minus one to hit plus one save You know, I mathematically he should have survived through everything but it all came down to Him doing nine wounds to croak at the very end of the day And this was game one of a six tournament where I had a ridiculously competitive army because it was aos 2 still and I rolled the 11 And and he went down turn one and I I ended up winning the next five went five one I ended up winning the next five games because like again aos 2 serif on was just insanely strong But just that that long story is just to summarize Competitively anything that you have a risk is You want to minimize if you're if you want to win, you know, a lot of games That's that's why I feel like sorry man That 10 star escarge in my mind like if I'm going to run croak, I'm running 10 star escarge 100% in my mind Yes, I'd be really curious to see you do that on a bat Let's see how that goes like yeah build build a list around that where you're doing the 10 Doing him and you know, maybe you're not you're moving up the board not just keeping him in the back You're pushing out that power projection that threat range of him middle of the table And that should still give you quite a bit else that you can do in the list I think I think it could be I have I'm just a little Find it strange. We haven't seen that. I haven't seen that as much and at least the 10 and croak Yeah, it's so so that'd be six So 6 6 6 60 they're 115 each for each guard. So two 30 plus four 30 Yeah, so 6 60 for the 10 guard and him Yeah, there's still a lot of room for other stuff in there for sure You're gonna want the ash with bear because he needs to have that for the six inch 16 So, you know a little on the expensive side still but no, it could definitely still be interesting But I I'm with you on that one like 10 guard for sure because now he doesn't get he can't garrison the temple He can't get look absurd. He can't right all these aos three rules that make the slam unbelievably good He he doesn't benefit from anymore I mean, I think Tyler the real answer is just the randomness of his survivability Right. Yeah the risk because it's all up to a dice roll and like the I think that in the end if you look at sort of spikes psychographic profile, right of like and and spike is sort of your Definer of the tournament list, right? Yeah spike hates random risk that he can't control for And the fact that you know, there is a set of dice he could roll when he takes three wounds That makes that frog explode No matter how minimal right because it is a super minimal chance to happen like let's be honest, right But because it's you can't control for it really in any way He can just take splash damage and then accidentally implode It I think that alone makes him the tough proposition spike hates spike hates skaven Which is no one no one should ever hate skaven. So I'm not with him on that Yeah Oh, sure. Yeah, no just moving on from that The skill level where where is this army ridge from a skill level standpoint? That is Oh, how much does it really require? A you know, pretty good level of skill to get good results How much it isn't more like suns where it's pretty straightforward kind of wears it on the spectrum in your mind Yeah, and I think you're asking you're Tyler both floor and ceiling Yeah, yeah, it's both irrelevant Yeah, yeah, I think it's it's it's not fully like luminous to where like It's a very very high skill cap or legion of the first prince I guess some of the other ones that you know, really good generals will take it to another level But you know with fangs and the starboard ones I think that there may be a little bit higher because you can do a lot and there's so many things to think about You're always thinking about okay, where is this unit going to teleport? Okay, where do I bring these down? It's one of those armies that you can get bogged down So I think it's a little bit higher skill cap in the way that you need to be thinking of a lot of things There are a lot of different buffs. There's a lot of different Dropping down your skinks or things so that next turn you're holding within 12 So you can give plus one to save you know, I mean a lot of aura buffs So actually then yeah, I think it is a little bit higher of a skill cap for for things like that um Maybe not as much the the staggies in the the beasts obviously they're a little bit more you can you can play them But even there there's yeah, but even there there's still a lot of you know tactical If you do with them in buffs and stuff like that But there is a lot of other just a lot of things to it So there's a lot to know so it's it's an army for sure that you get a lot better with playing Like you get better with reps and I've noticed that massively just myself and Jordan probably taught me the same thing like You know as you play them more and more you become so much so much better and You remember all those little bubble things and all those I better not pile in here because then I won't be I'll be outside of my star Priest buff Like those are and those can lose you games when your skinks don't have sixes to wound do an additional mortal Your your output is nowhere Yeah, to me. I've always perceived them as a again taking the lists on average There's variants and lists here of course, but so we're just gonna kind of average across the army And I you know my perception of it's always been it's a medium to high skill floor To really effectively pilot But a decently high skill cap As well. I I agree with you that it's like it's almost like if you took if lumeneth is this Right, then seraphon are like that Yeah, it'd be the same distance of the the bar like in prices, right, but it would just be scooted down some Mm-hmm Yeah, in in aos 2 I think it was way more forgiving Like yeah, just because you could run 40 skinks 40 skinks 40 skinks So that's where it was like people that have never even played. I remember watching so many tts games Where it's like so many people were just playing it because it was super strong Or they needed a ringer player or someone had to come in and play it and it was like They would still do well or they would still win and it was like so frustrating for people because it was like Oh, anyone could play seraphon in and we could do this and it was like Yeah, because it's just all skinks and they're still effective, but right one of those things that yeah If you it's just so many rules and and it's yeah one of those time things that Yeah, need to play games get reps in Uh, yeah, generally reminds me a little bit of donner's cane You know got some experience of course we talked about on the show that donner's came outside of marathi can be Unforgiving to mistakes, you know, it's a lot of his positioning screening I think my experience of it. It's an army of screens and hammers Gotta keep those hammers safe and seraphon reminds me a lot of daughters of cane that it seems relatively like it can be unforgiving You know, you're not Stormcast or ability or some of these other armies. You don't you don't have that So if you make mistakes, you could definitely get punished. Is that I I couldn't agree more Honestly, that is better than anything that we've said so far and and there are been games where I have made The small mistakes where things have happened and if you want the best way to kill seraphon I'll tell you right now everyone is yeah, you kill the hammers You can kill those hammers. That's You know, you can only summon 10 skinks. You can't summon you can summon ace alemander, but Yeah, you couldn't have said that better for sure. That's keeping the hammer safe is is always the number one thing on my mind Well, yeah, your bad reps have been amazing I really have enjoyed watching you play them on the channel because it's one of the best representations Caleb also with his you mentioned Caleb Hastings also really good Yeah, it's gonna give people a better sense of what all you can do with the army But yeah, watching you I mean, it's clear that there's a lot involved. It's not a You know, not an easy button army. It doesn't know me as that but yeah, it's got a lot of potency if it ran well I appreciate that man And honestly, I've had a few comments from people that have like almost maybe like tear up because it was like So nice of comments like hey rich Thanks a lot like for taking time to go through things like you're the reason that I placed seraphon And I've painted this many points and now I'm going to tournaments and stuff and it's like Yeah, that obviously there's nothing better than to hear like stories like that. So yeah, I think thanks man. Appreciate it Awesome. Well, very good. By the way, shout out to Caleb waltz who just joined us here one of your one of your opponents there What's up Caleb? How you doing buddy? I saw you crushed our mutual friend Paul round one. Well done Caleb. Well done At any rate, uh rich, thank you so much for being on show man and talking to us about seraphon. This is fantastic, brother Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much. It's uh been watching for a long time. So super cool to be on And now that I know you're also a scaven player deep in your heart Uh, we're like, you know, like you're more than welcome back We're gonna have you back on and so when maybe maybe it'll be to come back on and talk about rats Talk about how we dig out of this 30% win rate hole that the rats find themselves in Make sure that's a tom show I I yeah, it's Tyler I might have to foist it on you just because it would be much funnier to have you in there I played rats this last weekend. It didn't go well. I'll say it that much. That's so Many of my vermin lords proceeded to let me down multiple times and then get killed by murked by zombies and I was like, oh god, why Anyways, uh, so thank you rich great show Really appreciated all your insights everything you shared buddy And congratulations again on the win very well earned. Yeah, awesome. Thanks so much Don't forget the channel season war is going to be linked Down below everything that was mentioned in pick of the week linked down below Don't forget to hit like subscribe. Press all those buttons. It's important to press buttons That's how that's how the other people find the show. It really helps us out It's so easy. It takes not but a second of your time to just click a little button And it's so nice. It makes us feel so happy. So thank you very much everybody for watching. Tyler. Thank you as always Ridge thank you one last time all of you out there As always, we'll see you next wednesday