 Welcome into the original gangsters podcast. I'm Scott Bernstein, your host and ringmaster. My partner in crime, Jimmy Bucciolato, is off for the week. So it's just gonna be me, but we have a very, very special guest calling in for one of his first major interviews about his life in the mafia. I'm very excited to bring on Richard Cantarella, a former capo regime, as well as an acting underboss of the Banana Crime family. He is someone that has lived it all, has seen it all, is gonna be kind of our gangland tour guide through the crazy Banana Crime family soap opera that was that organization from, you know, the late 70s into when he left the mob and went with the team USA and testified against his boss, Joe Massino, in the early 2000s. But Richard, thank you so much for joining us and we're so excited to hear your story. My pleasure. Nice meeting you. And so let's just start from the beginning. You came up on the lower east side of Manhattan as a kid and we're really surrounded by mob figures, you know, both in your family and then the mob guys in your family were very tied in deeply connected to the Banana Crime family, which kind of set a path for you to join that family and then rise to the ranks. Can we kind of start from when you were a little kid in your first exposure to the life of a wise guy? Well, to be honest with you, I was never really interested in the life. And growing up, we were surrounded by it, you know, neighborhood guys. Nobody back then, the old time is never, never, never really the flaunted who they were or what they were about. But you saw these guys were dressed every day, shirt and tie, they wore their fedoras and always looked really like they stepped out of GQ. And, you know, you knew them and you respected them. Nobody bothered you to make sure the neighborhood was safe. And I was going to school. I wanted to become an illustrator. I like drawing and I wound up graduating from FIT, Fashion Institute of Technology. And I went to a couple of months of the college and I had an argument. And to put it a different way, I guess when I left, I took the wrong train. And I wound up, you know, I was working in the... I originally went to the Journal American. I don't know if you remember any of these newspapers? You know, I'm aware of them from, you know, a distance, you know, because I'm not a New Yorker. I didn't know them when they were being printed. I'm a relatively, you know, younger guy in my early 40s. But yeah, I'm aware, I'm aware of the publication. Okay. So I went to work in the Journal American because back then I got a father and son union card. That's how it worked in the newspaper mail delivery union. And through my father, I got a union card. I went to the Journal American. I wound up, you know, you're young. And I got fired from the journal. Of course, my father got me backward in a day. It was all who you knew back then. It was a different world. And I wound up going then to the New York Post. Luckily, so because the Journal American closed up. So I went to the post and really nobody ever shaped in the post because it was a... They always figured the post was going to close. Well, it didn't. It went on and on and on. And the post is still surviving today. So as time went on, I wound up buying luncheonette with my cousin, Angelo D'Amico, who is Joey D'Amico, also made guy, I'm sure you know the name. Yeah, Joey D'Amico. Yes, right. So it was his father, Angelo, that may he rest in peace was a sweetheart of a guy, a hell of a cousin. We got along. And then I bought him out of the luncheonette. I failed in the luncheonette, wasn't paying attention. And I went back to the post and I got to meet a gentleman by Rick Masio and Al came into the picture. My uncle Al came into the picture and claimed that he helped me get certain things out, marine and aviation, which he really was not the one who got them, was my uncle Pete Tosto. But that was Al Walker. He always made you understand that he was the guy he was the guy he was the guy. So, and you know what, let me let me stop for a second. I'm not going to talk bad of anybody. It doesn't make sense. Yep. I'm just stating facts. I have no desire to knock anybody. It's not me. Ain't gonna do me no good to do that anyway, Scott. Now, that's all we want to do is just tell a story and right. And you have an amazing story to tell and we're not looking to pass judgment or or cast aspersions on other people. This is you telling your story from your lens. Okay, I just want to do it on the center. I'm not that sort of person. I'm not going to stand here and knock anybody. So let me move on. So I wound up getting the how I start making money. I wound up with the new stand through Rick Masio at the ferry terminal, the Manhattan Staten Island ferry terminal. And from getting the new stand there, I wound up with the new stands on the Staten Island side. Of course, we're giving a kick kick back to Rick Masio. This is in the 1970s, right? Yeah, I believe so mid 90s, mid 70s, I think. And and was it was Rick Masio? Was his real name Dominic? No, not that I know of. I always knew him as Rick, Rick Masio. Okay, I think his his legal name might have been Dominic. But so so Rick Masio was a big shot within the newspaper union. Oh, no, no, no, Rick Masio was the guy at Marine and Aviation. He had nothing to do with the newspaper. Okay, he was the guy who met with his demise later on. Yeah, I was confusing it. So tell us who he was again, please. He was one of the commissioners at Marine and Aviation. Okay, explain to us who he was and what he did. What he did was there was I got to meet him through my cousin Frankie Cantorella. And he taught we wanted the newsstand downstairs. There's two levels to the ferry terminal. And I made up a story to the about the guy that had the stand. I created a lie that the guy was a bookmaker. And when the ferry and when the the authorities in the Marine and Asian Marine and Aviation, which was Rick Masio found out about it, but it was all a lie. They they threw him out. And I wound up with the newsstand. Okay, you're following so far. Following it. Okay. Now that newsstand was strictly newspapers, not candy cigarettes magazine, strictly newspapers. And my cousin Frankie ran it for me. So without being said now, I wind up with the newsstands upstairs. And in Staten Island, all together it was four newsstands. Three of them, Scott, were with cigarettes, newspapers, magazines, candy, the whole thing. So I start doing very well. Rick Masio, they offered me the parking facility that housed the cause that the people who worked in marine and aviation on the Manhattan side, they changed it to public parking. And he came to me, he said, Richie, why don't you take it? I said, What the hell do I know about parking? And this was his exact word. He said, What is there to know car pulls in the car pulls out? Well, I took it. I went into partnerships with our walk of my uncle Alan Borado. And we were doing very well. We put in 6000 a piece 12,000 went where it had to go. I don't know how they divided it up upstairs, you know, whoever got a piece of it. And me and my uncle were partners on this and we were doing very well. I had the newsstands and the parking lots. I stopped making money. And of course, wise guys look to latch on to you when you're making money. Just for people to know it's the people that watch the movies and kind of absorb all the pop culture depictions of organized crime. You see a lot of guys that are able to, you know, create a name for themselves and organize crime because of their muscle or their their their lethality. But in reality, the biggest equalizer in the world of the mob is being able to, you know, brass tacks, how much money you make, how big of an envelope are you giving to the boss? It's no different. It's business. That's all it is it's business. The more flags you put out there, the more money flows in the more money gets up to the boss. That's it's all about business. It's no different. Somewhat maybe like the government, some like it like anything else. It's business. It's how much money can you bring in? So I got involved with taking care of my uncle every month. And then my cousin Tony Mira came home from prison, who didn't even remember me. He was gone, I don't know, 15, 16 years. And he me and him, I love the guy to death. I got to tell you, Scott, I'm sorry what took place with him. I love the guy to death. But we got off to a bad start. He was very jealous of me. You know, I was he come home to me making money. I was doing very well. They went they went down him and my uncle, I actually let me back up a little bit. I was not getting no money until this. Him and Tony Mira went down to the newsstand and took the money from my my guy working the newsstand, took it from him. And they gave it back to me the next day. And this is how my uncle wound up getting money every month from me. That's how he got money. Okay, he wasn't he wasn't getting it before that. So he wasn't an you kind of made him an earner. Yes, he wasn't an earner. No, he was not an earner. And he he wound up. You know, that's how he let me put it in an exact way. They shook me down. On and on and on. So Tony Mira me and Tony Mira had a fierce argument one day in the street. And my my my my cousin Joey D'Amico was there. And he broke us up. Not that we were getting physical, but variable. And he we just we went from a good start from coming home from prison. We became arch enemies. So from there, it just went on and on. It was a terrible thing. He wound up, I believe my uncle wound up on the sunny black, who was part of that Joper stone situation. Yeah, Dominic, sunny black, nepalatano was a couple in the in the banana crime family. And you're you're telling us that your uncle Al Walker, aka Alfredo Ambrado wound up under sunny black, right? Right. Then I come to find out that Tony Mira made a claim to me to say that he that I originally belong to him. I don't know what they were doing behind the scenes. These are all the different things I heard. Sunny black would not discuss it with me because my uncle took me to sunny black one day and said to sunny, tell my nephew what Tony Mira had to say. He said, Al, he said, I actually not to repeat this story. And sunny just let it die. So there was this rift all the time between us. I'm trying to think how it went down as we went on. Tony, then they we went one day, I went with my uncle. And I might be missing something in between Scott, I don't know. But I went with my uncle one day. Joe Massino wanted to see him. And Joe ordered that Tony Mira how to be killed. So Joey D'Amico was involved because Joey was closest to Tony. Tony was on the lambs somewhat. And Joey Joey was the only one that really could get him supposedly Caesar who was Tony's captain could not get to him. We're talking about a Cesar Bonaventure. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Caesar was his captain couldn't get him. At least that's what was told to my uncle by Joe Massino. So what happened was the three of us engaged to wind up going after Tony. I was the car outside waiting for my cousin Joey D'Amico to come out after I hate to use the word but killing Tony Mira killed him in the garage came out and I was to pick up car and took him away. This was in 1982, I believe. Yes, exactly. Okay, so let's Richie, before we go any further, let's, you know, let's peel back for a second and give a little context, because not every person that's listening to this podcast has a you know, an in depth knowledge of the banana crime family. So just for people that don't know all the names that that Richie's been mentioning over the last, you know, five, 10 minutes, Joey, Joey D'Amico, Al Emberado, aka Al Walker, Tony Mira, Sonny Black, Joe Massino. These are all major players in the banana crime family in the 70s and 80s. And as Richie mentioned, when he said Joe Pistone, most people probably don't know who Joe Pistone is when you first hear that name. But when you say Joe Pistone played the role of Donnie Brasco, a lot of people will suddenly be aware of what we're talking about. And Donnie Brasco was an undercover operation that was started by an FBI agent named Joe Pistone, went undercover as Donnie Brasco was a creation of the federal government to give him a cover. And he infiltrated the banana crime family, which was then dramatized in the film Donnie Brasco, which came out in 1997 with Al Pacino and Johnny Depp playing Joe Pistone. And then Michael Madsen, famous from all of the Quentin Tarantino movies, playing Sonny Black. And although Richie and his uncle Al and his cousin Tony, and his other Tony Mira and then his other cousin Joey, although they were not depicted as characters in that film, they were, you know, smack dab in the eye of the storm. And when Joe Pistone was eventually revealed as or when Donnie Brasco rather was eventually revealed as FBI and FBI agent Joe Pistone, there was a big fallout. And the fallout, part of the fallout was Tony Mira was marked for execution. Because and correct me if I'm wrong here, Richie, the banana, the brass of the banana crime family blamed Tony Mira for bringing Joe Pistone, who was acting as Donnie Brasco into the fold with the bananas and his punishment for bringing an FBI agent in undercover FBI agent into the inner circle of the banana crime family was to be murdered. And the way they do things in the mob, your enemies don't murder you. Your closest friends and family murder you. So Richie and his cousin and his uncle were assigned to murder his other cousin. And that was the murder that he just described that took place in the parking lot. Is that correct? That's correct. So I also want to just peel back for a second and just have you give and then we'll go forward with what we were just talking about. But we were talking about parking structures and the newspaper industry through the through the post. And I think when a lot of people think of the traditional legitimate businesses that the organized crime gets their hooks into, they think of sanitation, they think of construction, they think of pornography or strip clubs. But people don't think of the newspaper industry or the parking structure industry. But you guys really made that a cornerstone of, you know, of your little banana mob empire where you were for what what two, two, three decades were controlling the New York Post and who was getting distribution routes, who was allowed to have those those sales bays that were selling the newspaper. And that gave you guys a lot of power. That's correct. Can you talk about that? Like, well, the fact that, you know, people wouldn't think that the newspaper industry would be vulnerable to that. But you guys had your hook into the the union that controlled all the newspaper workers. Well, we control basically the the delivery of the newspapers, the not the entire building, not the the reporters or anything we control the delivery end. If you were lending money out, you had to take care of us. If you were stealing from the paper, you had to take care of us. If you would take care if you were a bookmaker, in other ways, we control that we owned it. It was ours. You had to take care of us. Everything the illegal that went on in the papers, how to be taken in the post how to be taken care of us. It's kind of like in Detroit, where a lot of the wise guys, both kind of black and white would have control of the auto factories. And then any like you're saying anything that was going on illegal within that auto factory subculture, whether it be numbers, drugs, sports gambling, people, you know, selling swag, everyone, you know, it needed to be kicked up. Yes. So in that case, so like the auto factory itself, the executives that were making the cars weren't necessarily corrupted. And in your case, that the New York Post, the editors and the publishers weren't corrupted, but all their employees that that had operations going on, you know, at the property, they were being corrupted and compromised. At the delivery of it, the delivery and that end of it was corrupt. The mob ran it. If you needed a job, Scott, you come and see us and we would make sure you got a job. We controlled all of it, you know what I mean? And then later on, as things went on, I don't know if I'm jumping ahead. No, it's okay. No, this is perfect. Keep on later on. I want you to know, when Tony Miller got killed, I was not a made guy. Right. I was not a made guy. And it was never told to the the upper echelon of the banana family that I took part of it because our Walker was holding me back. He held me back based on money cause and then as time went on, there was a little bit of a rift between us to getting getting wider and wider. He wanted me want to I was driving a what was that called a red Mercedes and that cell and that cell Mercedes and he wanted me to give it over. He had a girlfriend for 50 years. Her name was Lucy, even to the point when I was in the company of friends that she was there, he my old cloud meaning he wanted me to call her Aunt Lucy because he made everybody understand that was his wife. Okay. I know it sounds crazy to you, but this is what existed. Because if you think about it, if I'm in the company of other friends with him, why wouldn't I call her our aunt think about it? You know what I mean? Yeah. So I you know, you wound up calling her Aunt Lucy wanted me to give my car to her. Why would I give my car to her? He always tried shaking me down because I was doing very well in life. I wound up building a home that I sold for $2.5 million later on when I got in trouble. So I never gambled Scott. I never gambled never drank. I wasn't bouncing at night like let's say the normal wise guy. I didn't hang out no place. I was with my wife. So all I ever did was invest. I put money into different mostly real estate. That's what I like doing Scott. I like I didn't get involved with the stock market. I like I have to feel it smell it touch it step on it. You know what I mean, Scotty? So that so I was a moneymaker until today. You needed tangible investments, things that you could right see as opposed to just see on a computer screen. And thank God I did that stop because the end result by getting in trouble. I wound up not like a normal wise guy that lived on somebody you shaking down different places and bookmaking or something. I had legitimate businesses that I wound up selling off that I could reinvest back in Arizona where I am. So it benefit me to stay legitimate in that that aspect of it. So I had when I got arrested, I had 150,000 in the street to one guy, a guy by the name of Joe Tory. He was another may guy. I gave him the money. He lent it out. Scott to whoever he I don't want to know who he lent it to he was responsible for the money for two points a week. I got 3000 a week. And of course, when I got arrested, God bless him he the money was his. So, you know, I was doing very good with that. Look, Scott, when you in that life, and especially a captain and you're a gentleman, don't stick your finger in nobody's face. More and more people come to you for help. I got involved with maybe I'm jumping ahead again. Okay, I got I got involved with an oil business. Because some people in a Gambino family was shaking this guy down. And he was delivering oil to one of my properties. And he finally came to me for help. And I they shook him down for a lot of money. But I got I got him away from them and then invested in his business. I put 75,000 into his business. And I got him oil back again through my goomba Joe Butch, through Bayside Fuel. There was Joe Butch sort of controlled. He's gone now he's dead Joe Butch Joe Butch. You're talking about Joe Carrillo from the Gambino's Joe Carrillo. Yeah. Yeah, okay. A gentleman and a half. Really a gentleman and a half. And he helped get him back to me, get him back having fuel oil without having to pay, you know, put it on consignment. I got involved too with somebody that when I was building my house later on, I don't know for a year or two years later, whatever it was after I finished my house came to me for help. He originally was painting my house. He said he was being shaken down by some people in the Gambino family. I sprained out out for him. I put up $10,000. They said he owed $80,000. They settled for 10. And he asked me this fella. What was his name? John? Yeah, John, he asked me how could how am I going to pay it back, which I got no money. I said, I don't want it back. He drove an ice cream truck called Liquity Split. I said, anything that comes along legitimate, let me know. I wound up owning Scott five ice cream trucks. And we fixed them. We painted them. We knew them. I had them in the street. I think it was from Labor Day until not Labor Day. Memorial Day to Labor Day. That's the time they were out in the street. Strictly Staten Island. And when I cooperated with the government, I got beat out of that too. Because I was not on paper was all under his name. And I got robbed out of that too. By this guy, John. You were very industrious, very entrepreneurial and looking obviously to diversify and not just make your money with the traditional rackets, which like you said, that's kind of in a lot of ways that short money. That's money that can go away in a second as opposed to long money that's working for you for decades. Yes. I couldn't have said it any better. I had a garbage guy that he owned a truck. You know we control the garbage industry, right? In New York, he would give me 20,000 a year, 10,000 at Christmas, 10,000 in July. He was under my wing, so to speak. The New York, the St. Genaro Feast, we would get in 30,000 a year from that through the, through Perry Christian Telly. I wound up making him a main guy too. I'll get into that story, but he owned a couple of restaurants on Mulberry Street and he got involved with being some of the leaders in the committee that ran the feast. So he was able to get to the people that put the lights up and the garbage. So none of them could have had those contracts without doing the right thing, meaning the 30,000 dollars. So Richie, I want to, I want to get your, I know, you know, just bear with me and the audience bear with us. We're kind of going all over the place, but Richie has got such, you know, there's such a palette to paint from here and telling the story. It's so rich and textured. I want to make sure we, we get as much insight from, from Richie as possible. So Richie, let's just go backwards for a second and go forwards again. I want to get your take on some of the, the political machinations that were going on in your crime family, both before you got your button, before you were initiated and then after. So in the 1970s, when you were on the come up, you had a factional dispute between Carmine Galante and Rusty Rustelli. You mean that's what was going on in the family? Yes, that was going on in the family. So what was your, what were you being told, I guess, as a guy at that time, you were in your thirties or about to hit your thirties and you had these kind of two heavy weights that were battling from control of the family and then one of them in Carmine Galante starts importing all of these Sicilians, and you mentioned one a while, a while back in this interview, Cesare Bonaventry, starts importing all these, these Sicilians to kind of be his own family within a family, which is kind of alienating the, the rank and file even more and it, and everything was this giant powder keg until it finally exploded in the summer of 1979 when Carmine Galante was murdered in a very public execution and even his, his Sicilian inner circle had turned on him and, and Bonaventry, who had been his kind of right hand, had been involved in the assassination and then Bonaventry becomes a capo at a very young age. So can you just kind of talk about what your observations were at the time of what was going on? I mean did it just seem like it was surreal? I wasn't really a hundred percent in the know, I, I just went along with, you know, Joe Machiner, I didn't know him like I knew him at the end, I knew him from a distance, but the man was always a gentleman with me and his side was to, he was there for Rusty, so I'd lean towards whatever Joe did was okay, you know, the way I'll go along with what Joe says, you know what I mean? I, I didn't know Carmine Galante, I did not know Rusty Rastelli, I, I, I just went along with, this is where we're the trend of, you can't just come in and take over a family and Joe was running things for, for, for Rusty and I just went, I just went with the flow, nobody, my uncle did not tell, tell me this is the way we got to go, I just went along with it, and matter of fact the, the day that those three captains were killed, the night whatever it was, the next day or the day after that there was a meeting in, in, I can't even think of the name of the area, but right over the Delancey Street bridge and in an apartment that Joe was there and they, they had a, they were straightening out a lot of differences some of the guys were having in the family and I wasn't allowed to go into the kitchen where the discussions were, so I was sitting outside in the living room, why I was there Scott, I have no idea, I think my uncle took me with me thinking that if their intentions were to kill him, that they wouldn't do it while I was there and to prove that many years later now I get close to Joe Massina and I told Joe of it, he said Richie we would have never heard you, at least that's what he told me, so here I am sitting in the next room with a fellow named Booby who wound up being a made guy on the sunny, sunny black, I don't know if you knew Booby. Yeah John, John Sarasani went by the nickname Booby and in the movie Donnie Brasco they changed his name, but he was the James Russo character, go ahead. Okay, so you know pretty much, better than me probably, but anyway there I am sitting there listening, you could heard their voices and they asked my uncle Al if he ever, I think he called, what the hell was his name, the door, did you know that Salvador the door, he was one of the boys from the other side. Total Catalano? Yes, I think that was his name and my uncle called him a grease ball or something and it got back to his years, so my uncle of course denied it and they sort of, I guess shook hands, I mean I wasn't there visually, but I could hear and they put whatever it was, but another way what Joe was trying to do now is let the family go forward, the three captains were gone, nobody was looking to take over the family and coming to Lenti was gone and so let's let the Bonanno family go forward. So I just want to again, I want to clarify for people that might not know all the specifics here, so Galante's murdered in 1979 and then the three capos murder that Richie is referencing here was actually depicted in the movie Donnie Brasco and that was a further factional dispute that erupted after the first factional dispute was resolved, so Carmine Galante is murdered and Rusty Rastelli takes over the family, you know, takes full control of the family, Joe Massino who Richie keeps on referencing was Rusty Rastelli's protege and kind of his underboss. Joe Massino would eventually, and we're going to talk about him in the second half of this interview quite a bit, he would grow to be the biggest godfather in all of America, the biggest godfather in New York throughout the 90s, rebuilt the Bonanno crime family from really the ashes, they were in tatters and rebuilt them into a monstrosity in a matter of about 15 years and Richie was a big part of that, but there were three captains that were aiming to get rid of Rustelli's captains. Sonny Black, who we mentioned before, was being opposed by a guy named Sonny Redd, and then Sonny Redd's two best friends were two other capos, Phil Lucky, Giaconi, and Dominic Big Trincare, and they were lured to what was thought to be a sit down to resolve the second factional dispute, and in fact it was an execution, all three capos, I should say all three renegade capos were murdered, this was in 1981, and then as Richie said, Joe Massino and Phil Rusty Rustelli go about reconstructing the family and trying to build it from a healthier, less contentious standpoint, and things would be pretty healthy and thriving for the next 10 to 15 years, and then eventually some more drama started to erupt within Joe Massino and his brother-in-law and his wife that we'll talk about in a second, but so Richie, talk about how you got made, you said that your uncle didn't want to give you credit for the Tony Mira hit in 82, which probably should have got you your button then, but your uncle was blocking you, what led you to eventually getting your button? Well, I didn't know he was blocking me, I come to find out later on that Joe Massino never knew I was involved with the Tony Mira killing, so when he became aware of it, I believe it was my cousin Joey that let him know, you know what, there's so many stories Scott, you might think I'm crazy, but I don't remember them as well as you think I should, so somebody led Joe Massino to know that I was involved and after he knew I was involved, I wound up, my name went in and I got straightened out and my uncle didn't know I knew all this from the side, he made it look like he put my name in and that's how I got made, so are you comfortable talking about the induction ceremony that you went through? Yeah, I got no problem, so who, do you know when it was and who was there and what were the kind of color it up for us? When I got made it was a spiro, he was running things I think at the time because Joe Massino was not around, you see now a little bit is starting to come to my life, I think Sa, originally I was supposed to get made before Joe went to jail and my uncle put the stop on it, something he did and I didn't get straightened out, Joe went to jail and then it was Sa, his vandalor, took the message back to him, I understand while he was in jail that Richie was involved with the Tony Mira killing and word come down for me to get straightened out and there was Joe Massino, what the hell was that, a spiro there? If a spiro was Joe Massino's acting boss and concigliary. Frank Copa was the one, my son just reminded me, I wound up moving in the same community off the water down there and Frankie Copa was there and I got very friendly with Frank Copa, you know that name too, right? Yeah, Frank Copa was a confidant of Joe Massino, eventually became a copo, he was really the definition of an earner, he wasn't a tough guy at all, right? No, no, he never did none in the term, the guy never killed the cockroach. But he rose high because he was making so much money for Joe Massino. Right, he was a little bit of a scheme of Frankie, but you know what, I miss him too, he wasn't a bad guy and I wound up letting him money to finish building his home, I think I left him, what I lent him $25,000, $50,000, yeah. Anyway, so now he took me sort of how come your uncle never made you without my uncle knowing anything when he went to visit Sal, he would take me to see Sal and Sal got to know me and Sal carried the message back to his brother-in-law in prison and I wound up getting straightened out and who was there the day I got straightened out was like I say, Spiro, Frankie Lino because Frankie Lino represented Bobby Lino. So he was there and my uncle, it was very, it wasn't like a full blown ceremony Scott. It was just you, it was just you? It was just me and Bobby Lino, that's all that got made. When my, to tell you the difference, when my son got made it was like a big deal, you know, we had, we had food, we had champagne, Joe Massino was there, there was the holding of hands, the whole thing, it was, you know, if you believe in the life to me, it was one of the most best times of my life and it wasn't my idea for my son to get made, it was Sal, when I went to prison in, you see I'm jumping around, but when I went when I went to prison in 94 for controlling the newspaper business, okay, I put my son with Sal Vitali. Sal took a likeness to him, my son loved him, they got along when I come home, Sal said, why don't you put your son's name in and that's how my son got straightened out, but it was a whole different glorified ceremony. And Salva, good look in Sal Vitali was Joe Massino's brother-in-law. That's him. He was married to Sal's sister, right? Joe Massino was married to Sal's sister, correct. Okay, so Sal Vitali became his under-boss and this is where some of the drama starts. Sal, go ahead Sal, I'm sorry. No, you're the expert, so you tell us. So Joe Massino and Sal Vitali were kind of a, they were a team, I mean they were brother-in-laws, boss, under-boss and then as the 90s began to progress there begins to be a frame of that relationship where Massino for the sake of, you tell me if I'm, if I'm narrating this correctly, Massino for the sake of further insulating himself and his and his crime family he decentralizes and makes sure that all or makes certain that all the crews are kind of acting separately. The right hand doesn't know what the left hand's doing so if you know one guy and one crew gets in trouble he can't take down the whole family. But by doing this he kind of cuts his underboss's legs from out from underneath him and and takes the power of controlling all the capos away from Sal Vitali which kind of makes Sal Vitali a figurehead. Would you say that's accurate? Yeah, you know I really don't, I don't know what happened between them. All I know, let me go back a little bit. When Joe came home and he was on parole and then he got off of parole I hadn't seen Joe in 10 years let's say right because he went away and he did I think at that time it was only 65 percent I think he did six and a half years and then the rest he was on parole well one day I was talking to Sal on the phone. Sal on his side hands the phone to his brother Lord Joe Massino. Joe gets on the phone I recognize his voice immediately he said I'll see you for dinner Friday night never says where and I need him in a place called Garjulio's it's in in Coney Allen and the reason why I didn't even have to mention the name because we both used to eat there at one time are you familiar with this place called Garjulio's? No but I've read about that that's where you met him when you both got out of prison. Okay so now I go there that night this is where I'm coming into play with his brother Lord I go there that night he introduced me to his wife I introduced my wife and he pulled me off the table for maybe an hour and he starts questioning me about a lot of different things his brother Lord's brother so I did nothing but brag about his brother law rightfully so his brother was very cautious his brother Lord this is that well he said to me I taught him everything he knows now I see where it's going the drift is going to there's something not right here I don't know if Joe felt too many guys got to like Sal and he felt he was a threat down the line I really don't know Scott what took place between them do you remember them being close though at any time do you ever remember them being like super close and then all of a sudden they weren't or you just never knew them when they were super close you only knew them when they started the no all I know is he strained out his brother Lord so they must have been close and then then he made him a captain he didn't make him under boss right away I think they had it something about Louis ha ha yeah in the position of running things and then I think Spiro went to him and spoke from what I hear I don't know this from them from what I hear Spiro stepped in and he spoke to Sal this is your brother Lord and he made him on the boss let's regress for a second and tell the audience I'm going to let you tell why did the Anastasio brothers Louis and Bobby they went by the nicknames Louis ha ha and Bobby ha ha tell people why they got that nickname I don't know to be honest oh you don't know I thought you know the reason they got that nickname was because Louis I guess at a point in the 70s was was asked to do a hit and he started laughing so they called him he like he laughed at the idea of doing a hit so they they called him ha ha I did not know that Louis was a big owner from what I understand yeah Louis and I was a bigger yeah and anyway I don't know what took place between you know at home I know Sal wasn't getting along with his wife and and he was living in the basement and Joe said what kind of man are you leave the house you leave her you know what I mean but don't be living in the basement I don't really know Scott I'd be lying to you if I made up a story so I don't know but he put me I was given Sal 1500 a month I forget why I was giving him 1500 a month and then Joe spoke to me and said don't give my brother Lord the money no more give it all to me so I went to Sal and we were at a we were at a wake somebody's wake and there was big Louis there Frankie Copper was my my guy I think at the time I don't remember exactly and he said I told him I'd never told him I couldn't tell him that Joe told me I said it ain't there no more Sal you know I don't know Joe was testing me my loyalty to him but I got a little uppity with Sal and Frankie pulled me to the side and he says you can't talk to Sal you know the guy is an underboy I said well what do you want me to do I didn't tell nobody that Joe told me not to give him the money no more I said what do you want me to do Frank the money ain't there well how else do I tell him he didn't want acceptance Sal that way Richie when did you become when did you get up to Copper regime okay so let me tell you when I started from the beginning when I got made I had a captain that was Frankie the fireman real nice gentleman you know of his name Frank Porco yeah I think that was his name Frankie Porco yeah yeah yeah well no sooner I got made Sal took me that took me away how do I explain you have to have to have a captain because if you have a problem you have to have someone to represent you that would be your captain you can't have the underbores or the boss represent you that's why there's captains right so I always had him as a captain but Sal took me away and I became Sal's how would I say a show for a go-to guy you know I mean if we were at a wedding or a wake you couldn't get to Sal unless you went through me you follow so I got very close to Sal I pick him up eight nine o'clock at night in Long Island take him to locations in New York I don't know where he went I would be parked there he'd go in the building I don't know if he was in the building came out the other side but anyway you know nobody have ever knew I never repeated it to nobody so I guess my confidence with him kept building and building and then when like I say would Joe come home and I met with him and God julios our relationship went on and on and I got very close to Joe and I gotta tell you the truth Scott a man to man as a man not almost understood I fell in love with Joe he was a gentleman and a half he didn't stick his finger in nobody's face he didn't put his hands in nobody's pockets we had the same view where we wanted the family to grow and he finally made me a captain and I think I had 12 guys under me including my cousin Joey D'Amico and I don't remember exactly from when I got made captain to when I actually got made I don't know the time period was there any resentment with your cousin Joey the Joey D'Amico um because he got he got made before you but then you passed him by pretty quickly once you got your button became a couple and then eventually part of the administration I don't know Scott I don't know I would imagine yes there might have been some but when I made Joe then my acting captain he really hadn't he had no desire he liked the title but he didn't want don't ever introduce me Richie as your acting captain he didn't want that cut oh Joey was interested in he was a ladies man he loves staying out he liked drugs from what I come to find out and then I had to take him down eventually Scott I took him down as my acting captain so I guess there was some resentment who became your acting captain after Joey I don't think I I'm trying to remember I don't think I made anybody my acting captain I went without it so talk about Joe Massino getting close to him what were his best attributes as a boss why was he able to take a family that was you know was kicked out of the commission in the 80s because of the Donny Brasco thing and was really on the outs with all the other families and in a matter of you know 10 years he takes the family from you know from the bottom all the way to the top I don't know maybe you did I don't I don't expect an answer if you spoke to Joe the man knew how to talk he was a gentleman he wasn't like I say he didn't stick his finger in nobody's face and the way things were going back then if I remember right most of the bosses were in jail I think at the time so I think it was him and Chin maybe the only real street guys bosses that were in the street so he slowly rose to power and like I say he brought it all back together with his I mean he was in the life since he's a kid you know what I mean so he was very well liked by everybody very well liked Scott and he was able to put it together like I say even with legitimate business he was a good legitimate businessman he ran the family right he was a fair guy you couldn't go to him and say you know Tony what's his name T.G. Tony Graziano is using drugs let's kill him you couldn't do that he would do his own was that legitimate what Richie just referenced was the murder I believe in 1998 of Gerlondo Shaka is that how you pronounce his last name Machatia they called him George from Canada he was the liaison between the Bananos and their crew up in Montreal and he he was I believe he was a captain and then he started bad mouthing Joe Massino's consigliere Anthony Graziano who they all called T.G. and claimed to Joe every time I'm with T.G. the guy is high on cocaine now was that that's the story or the narrative that's been that's been rolled out there you think that's true yes I got it not that he was always hard now you might have said that I don't think Joe would want to repeat that what came to my ears from Joe is he said if I were boss T.G. could never be my captain okay so you know think about it if you're not going to want to repeat something like that that he said he's always high you know what I mean yeah so Joe put it in his own words if I were boss this is what George claimed so he felt George was questioning him about his ability to pick a captain he's being subversive he's being subversive right and he made he made up but he said listen here's what we're going to put out there we're going to say that it was a drug deal that went bad with George and they wound up killing him and he brought like he was you see I was one of the guys that knew the truth Vinny Vinny Gorgeous when Vinny came in he said you want me to take care of this Joe I'll find out he said no you're not listening to what I'm saying he said I'm telling you keep your ears open not to go ask question because Joe really knew what the story was it came from him but that's the rumor he spread and you know what Scott it works yeah he did so when did you eventually get bumped up to Joe Mathino's under boss all I know he never said you're under boss all he had was five captains I from what I understand he was grooming me he never never really came to me he said now you're my under boss he was I then later on I heard he was grooming me he had five captains reporting to me and I gotta tell you Scott it is not something I wanted it is not a job I wanted my son who very smart young fella he came to me he said that this is going to blow up on our face and sure enough it did if I don't get close to Joe Masina and I'm not resenting it or regretting I'm only saying if he don't bring me under his wing I could have flew under the radar forever Scott it was being close to him it goes along with the with the package you know I was under his shadow and I become known and what happens is the FBI starts looking at you to get to him and I'll tell you what the FBI told me later on they said we did a psychological profile of you you're a family man Rich and sure enough they arrested everybody in my family put more and more pressure they arrested my wife they arrested my son they were going to arrest my daughter all bullshit cases not my son's case my son's case he got charged with kidnapping which I never knew about and when I cooperated with the government I mean I said I don't know what you're talking about I know we don't do things like that not what was it Paul what was your home invasion I said we don't we don't do things like that we don't we don't want to God forbid there's a a mother a wife in the house God forbid you know we don't we don't well Richie that actually did happen with you know what would be considered the JV mob of the of the Bananos at that time was a group called the Bath Avenue Boys and there was a no no no no no that was yes go ahead I'm sorry I said there was there was a home invasion where an innocent woman ended up getting killed and that's yes yes you see what I'm trying that's that's bad business yes that's not what we're about if anything I remember growing up being a morberry sheet or whatever you couldn't even curse in front of a woman go help her with her packages could you imagine invading their house with your mother being there or your sister or something that's not something we advocated to so what what what looking back on it and kind of playing Monday morning quarterback we're reaching the you know the new millennium and it's becoming the 2000s and it was kind of the beginning of the end those first couple of years of the 2000s what made everything fall apart for the for the for the for the messina regime and then within the messina regime the the uh the cantorella uh group well I you know I I started all of a sudden I was on the investigation the FBI started following me the FBI came to my house one day they listen my house got raided twice your machine's house did not get raided John Gotti's house did not get raided I kept the money for the family in my house I had up to $500,000 in my house but the first time they came in they were not able to find it do you want me to tell you where it was yeah I I had this house built on the ocean and in my basement they made what they call a french drain because I was on the ocean you know what that is I kind of understand well go ahead it's a it's a drain built a goth a bit water starts coming up from the ocean there's a drain before it floods your house the basement it'll go into this drain and then there was a room the motor room well in that room up at the rafters of it I pulled out all the the the Paulie what do you call that stuff inside the the the the stuff that they put in the ceiling insulation I pulled out the insulation Scott and I put a bag in there with a string and I pushed it all the way back with like a broomstick and I put the insulation back in so they were never able to find the money now it it happens again but now I don't have it in my house no more the bag my mother God bless him she rests in peace but I got to be truthful with you never asked me a question I put it in my mom's house you know the old-time Italian women that's where they came from they never she never asked me a question I was her son I was able to hide it in her house with nobody knowing about it they raided my house again but the second time they had cameras so they went from the attic down and you know all through the walls and everything they never found nothing somebody had to give it up that I was holding the money for the family so uh you you know I was I'm gonna make a joke out of this Scott you know I'm I'm the president of the Italian American Club right yeah okay you know I was the treasurer first yeah well I was treasurer for the banana family too so I guess I got you got experience yes your season vet in the in the the financials yeah I even until today my son my my grandson Richard and I got to compliment him too he he's he's thank god we got him you know I don't know how my son planned that he did a good job making them but uh no really I'm not kidding which I'm putting it in the crude way but uh thank god we got him he's he's he's very good at what he does he's he's today computer you know he's all into that stuff which I don't even know how to turn it on I know you don't want to hear this part that's okay no I love I love this part yeah people are are multi-dimensional and I was talking about this with a pretty decorated FBI agent retired FBI agent the other day and I said you know there people are complex individuals good guys aren't all good and bad guys aren't all bad sometimes you can have a good guy that's actually a bad guy and a bad guy that's actually a good guy I mean it's not black and white well I say that all the time it's not I say there's good and bad in every walk in life yep every walk there's some agents I mean there are dirty bastards in plain English there were other FBI agents that did their job but they were gentlemen they they had good bedside manners or some of the other ones Scott I wish I could spit in their face today hmm so when did the talk about the kind of the the dominoes falling Frank Copa was the first one to flip is that correct Joe Masino's confidant guy that we just said before wasn't a real tough guy but made a lot of money T.G. oh Frank Copa you know Frank Copa from what I understand yes he was one of the first ones to flip and I believe Joey D'Amico because when I got questioned there was only me and Joey D'Amico that did like with Tony Mirra even though our Walker was involved but I was gone so when Tony when they knew asked me questions they could I mean you could figure it out yourself Scott you're asking me right now as far as I'm concerned there's only me and you on the phone how could anybody else know what we're talking about right okay so me and Joey D'Amico did this this and this how do they know about Joey D'Amico how do they it's coming from Joey D'Amico right so I mean you didn't have to be a scholar to figure it out so I saw the hand right on the wall I spoke to my son privately in prison which was a very dangerous conversation and I said Paul I think the best thing is we cooperate he was facing a lot of years his children I think his daughter was only two years old I mean what kind of a father with that now don't misunderstand I'm not using him as an excuse why I cooperated I cooperated because I wanted to cooperate I did not want to spend the rest of my life in jail I had nothing to do with my son but I I he benefited because I would not want to take him away from his children at that age what kind of a father would I be that's how no I I completely you know can cosign that that type of thinking I'm interested though in addition to that it'd be interesting to ask Joe Massino this question I'm hoping I can eventually ask him or we could eventually ask him so in some ways it was so brilliant in the ways that Joe Massino was was able to rebuild a crime family in the way that he did and turn it into the powerful kind of omnipresent organization within New York in the late 90s after you know the mid 80s the family was was on the ropes but he rebuilt it on the shoulders of guys like yourself and Frank Copa who were very intelligent mafia guys they you guys weren't knuckle draggers but the downside to that I believe is when really smart people you know get their are pinned against the wall and they have to be pragmatic you know the results going to be that they're going to save themselves they're going to do the smart thing so you're actually kind of by building your crime family around brains instead of brawn in some ways you're opening yourself up to to a better chance of cooperation as opposed to the the less intelligent knuckle dragger types that would be quicker to stick to the why I made an oath so I'll just go to prison for the rest of my life okay well with that being said and I agree with you to an extent but what about Joe cooperating was he a knuckle dragger or was he no Joe no he was smart that's why he became the first real New York Don ever flow yeah right you listen you have no ideas Scott or you do have an idea how many people are cooperating from the street right now oh I do as long as believe me okay believe me in my 15 years of doing this if I've of studying this and reporting on it if I've learned anything I've learned that the notion of people keeping their mouth shut is a fallacy everybody talks everybody even in the Italian American club no so guys that you would never think talk they do talk they might never be outed as as informants they never they might never take the witness stand but believe me they're having conversations behind the scenes they know there's a bunch of guys in the Midwest guys that were were and are bosses that I'm convinced are confidential informants because there's no way they're able to avoid the the the avalanches that they've been able to avoid in their in their lifetimes if they didn't have some type of deal going out with the government listen Scott I'm not going to mention names and when I tell you the story it's going to be obvious why I would never mention names but there were people two people that called me when I got home and they wanted to hook up because they was in the street but they wound up cooperating with the street so they could get a paycheck from the government so I had I had my own family cooperate against me I don't know if you're aware of this my own personal family okay tell me or tell us only because you said there's no secrets or nothing I then I'm on trial I'm on trial and what comes up in in with Vinnie Gorgias' trial is the New York Post and they said something pertaining to my nephew Joey Patavana who was my sister's oldest son who worked in the post now I'm coming to realize that they're cooperating against me my own personal family then I come to realize the purpose of it was my mother's house my share of it was taken away from me they cooperated against me she quit she quit deeded the house to herself my sister because it belonged to her and my mother she put my mother in a home and they were cooperating against me so I could never come back to Stan Allen so when I found out I couldn't call my mother no more and this breaks my heart you have no idea how close we were I couldn't call my mother no more all of a sudden she wasn't answering the phone Scott I come to find out she was put in a home I called the home the home says we don't have you listed as her son she only has a daughter so I made a phone call or two within about 20 minutes I was able to talk to my mother my mother's first words out of her mouth Scott were you them dirty bastards and I said what are you talking about mom now you have to understand the heritage there of these old Italian women she would not say nothing bad about her daughter when she said those dirty but they tricked her and putting her into a home she's talking about the FBI no no no my sister put her in a home oh she's talking okay okay get it she's talking about her own family okay yeah my sister put her in a home she could say those dirty bastards no the FBI did not put her in a home and the benefit was they quick deeded the house themselves they took it away from me my share which is okay all my sister had to do was talk to me we never had a bad word between us but again Scott when it comes to money don't trust nobody yeah so and they they took the home and then I come to find out they spread rumors about us it was getting back to me you know it's a who a house Stan Allen you have no idea who knows who knows who and it got back to me that they uh I cooperated against them I said what would I cooperate on what did they do wrong I don't know even though what did they do wrong that I would cooperate yeah and then the well another one of her sons was talking about my son well he wanted to be a big shot let him go do the time 11 years because that's what my son was supposedly facing meanwhile he got in trouble and he wound up cooperating with them he thinks I don't know about it all because he was he was a another way they put pressure on him because he was taking bets he was a a bookmaker they were squeezing him yes and he you know he couldn't do 11 minutes talking about my son doing 11 years yeah right but that's all right they all turned their back coming God bless them I don't wish them good but I don't wish them bad Scott but they did a terrible terrible oh and then when my mother died what they did was left a message the home left a message on my phone it was six years it was Mother's Day Eve Saturday night I come home and on the phone is a message that my mom passed away the next morning I called up the home Edgers was the name of the home in Staten Island they said we're very sorry for your loss I said well where is my mom's body figuring where is she going they said we don't know I said how could you how could you not know where my mother's body went they were told not to tell me so I couldn't go to the funeral you know I couldn't show up so you know look Scott there were certain things I don't know how you are in your family where you could sit across the table say you know what I didn't see your that way let's forget about it but there was no way I could forget about this no way I know I understand but just I don't know if this makes you feel any better but you know everybody's family is just as crazy as everyone else's family nobody nobody can sit there and judge anyone else I mean if you deep dive into anybody's family life you'd find craziness and drama and people doing wrong to the other and you think that just you know blood lines would eliminate that but in fact sometimes it accentuates it and I never had a bad word with my sister I did have a fistfight with my brother when I gave him a black eye maybe I got lucky Scott let's leave it at that let's just do the last five minutes until I kind of rapid fire were you surprised when you found out that Sal Vaitali and Joe Massino had decided to cooperate Sal I wasn't surprised by Joe I was surprised by because Sal Joe wanted to kill Sal right so I was not surprised that Sal after the FBI must have convinced them and he believed that your brother-in-law is trying to kill you I don't know this to be a fact I mean the FBI ain't coming to tell me but it must have been after he heard what Joe was trying to do because Joe spoke to me he called me to the side one night in the restaurant he said I want to kill my brother-in-law this this and this he said I believe his cooperative so as my boss and how I felt him I said well I'm there if you need my help he said fine but I want to pull the trigger I know this is crazy conversation to you Scott but it it existed but Sal just so for people to know Sal Vitale was not cooperating at that point okay I don't know I don't know I don't believe I don't believe he was I believe that he has started cooperating after the FBI came and told him that that they were oh yes yes that Joe Massino was going to kill him that's true that's true I don't believe Sal was cooperating at the point when Joe approached me that he was cooperating but he did cooperate afterwards and I tell you why I know for a fact when you cooperate they put you in segregation so later on many years later I learned my son looked you know there's a little square glass looking out your cell door you know that right yeah yeah so looking out my son's cell door who's the cross on the other side looking out the cell window is Sal Vitale well they both backed up in surprise so we knew right away Sal was cooperating but you're right he was not cooperating back then he was cooperating after they convinced him and he believed that Joe wanted to kill him yes you're right and the only reason that the feds would even play ball with Joe Massino is because they were desperate to take down Vinny Gorgeous who you mentioned before Vinny Bashiano would become acting boss or kind of declare it himself acting boss was going around killing people and then talking about killing judges and prosecutors yes what would so just real quick what was your take on Vinny Bashiano did you have a lot of interaction with him no and I didn't and I didn't dislike him I like Vinny but Vinny solved problems like John Gotti kill him that's how Vinny solved problems and I understand from hearing I don't know if it's true that Vinny I think this is what Joe went back to the FBI with if Vinny was planning to kill Paulie what was the prosecutor's name Greg Andre I mean from what I understand he already knew where he ate every Wednesday Tuesday night whatever it was and Joe repeated this to the FBI and I think they wired him up and Vinny had that much trust in him to tell him and this is how Joe wound up cooperating because I think they were against Joe cooperating but he convinced them about getting Vinny gorgeous and then last question we're going to end with one more question art imitating life or life imitating art from your perspective what is the best movie or television show that depicts the life that you led most accurately The Godfather it was something that you can do you remember watching it do you remember hearing people within your orbit kind of saying how authentic it was yeah I listen I go I'm 77 so I go back my mentor was 92 our walker so I go back to those traditional old timers like The Godfather was in the movie where you did things in the neighborhood to help people help us save her apartment you know that's what I miss in in the life I love the life I still do where you're able to help people Scott what took place behind closed doors that was our business because you joined the club and you knew the rules like me I had an incident where they I had an argument with Vinny gorgeous in the courtroom they broke up the trial for a few minutes took me in the back and the prosecutor said what is wrong with you you're gonna you're gonna put Vinny in jail that's your your way you get I said no you see you got it all wrong I said I don't want to put Vinny in jail you do I said in my cooperating if that's the end result but it's not that I want to go after Vinny so you know I made it clear I did not leave my balls at the door I am still the same guy you know what I mean beautiful I'm being honest with you Scott I am still the same man let me put it this way a lot of guys walk in a room and they think when they get straightened out now they're tough guys well I'm gonna say something to you man I was born tough not that I push people around but I was born tough I don't take lightly and never in my life that I ever get pushed around never but I did not go and bother nobody I'm not a bully or anything Richie this was great I can't tell you how much I appreciate it you've done it you've said it all this is one of the best interviews I've ever done hopefully it's the you know the start of a beautiful friendship between myself and you and your son and I can't thank you enough for for giving me the honor to interview I look forward to talking to you again these days have a good one all right thanks guys appreciate it have a good 4th of July bye bye you too buddy well that was just one amazing storyteller there you got it right from the horse's mouth the OG of OGs from the banana crime family Richie Cantarella we didn't get into the nickname Richie Shellacad but from talking to him off the air I heard that that no one really called him Richie Shellacad on the street it was a name that was given to him by some guys I believe in the in the newspaper world that would reference him to each other because he put a lot of shellac in his hair but Richie Cantarella again I'm just so honored that he took the time to sit with us and tell his story and that's what we do here on the OG podcast we're giving you the most authentic stories from the most authentic people and I was so glad that we could share this with you we'll be back next week I'm Scott Bernstein for Jimmy Bucciolato OG media OG podcast out