 Hello and welcome to NewsClick and People's Dispatch. The U.S. election results are still being tabulated. The elections were held on November 3rd, of course, and the results are still not out. There's still not too much clarity at this point. It looks like Joe Biden definitely ahead, but things could still change at any point of time. Today we are very lucky to be joined by Claudia de la Cruz of the People's Forum in New York. And Claudia is one person I'm not going to ask if she's surprised about what's happening because just the day before the election, she had written an article called What the U.S., talking about what the U.S. working class could expect, and she had pretty much predicted what's happening that there would be no conclusive results. There would be armed gangs, protest groups on the streets, in some cases, Trump supporters saying stop the counting in some other cases, saying continue the counting. So it's a mess, and Claudia had very accurately predicted some of these phenomena. Claudia, thank you so much for joining us. It's a pleasure to be with you on People's Dispatch. Right, Claudia. So I wanted to ask, over the past two days, especially what we are seeing right now, what exactly does it show about the nature of U.S. institutions? Because, of course, it's an election, millions of people voted. It's a democracy, and now it's boiled down to a few thousand votes here and there, and there's utter confusion. It's a bourgeois democracy. It's a crippled democracy, and it's really a disgrace, and it's such a dangerous disgrace what's happening in the United States right now. I mean, the institution itself is not ready for millions and millions of people to vote and actually count those votes in time for folks to know who the president is. That's disgraceful. I mean, if this wasn't to be happening in any other part of the world, the United States would be calling for folks to go observe the elections somewhere else, right? And so, unfortunately, it talks a lot about what's been happening for decades. The conversation around voter suppression is something that a lot of states, particularly in the South, have been bringing up for many years, and it has its roots in slavery, in the institution of slavery, and so we are coming to terms with the strong legacy of slavery in the United States, where you are able to see the many ways in which this country has placed barriers for people to exercise popular democracy. It's crazy and it's appalling to see that the Democrats are also utilizing what they have been also a part of. I mean, they've also been part of voter suppression for many years, and the idea that Trump is the one person that is actually becoming an obstacle for folks to exercise democracy is just false. And I think it's important for us to understand that, I mean, it would be important also to understand that Biden is over here saying, and his campaign is saying, well, this is the largest number of votes that any Democrat has received in the history. Well, there's a history to that as well. It's not that he's gained those numbers because he has an actual plan to save the working class, which is the majority of the people in the United States. I mean, if they wanted really to have that type of wave that they talked about, they would have chosen Bernie in April, right? Because it's promises. There's no plan. And this is what has been happening with the Democratic Party for many, many years. And so when Biden speaks about this overwhelming number of votes, it's not a vote for Biden. These are votes against Trump. There's a large anti-Trump coalition that goes from very left progressive liberal center. He cannot assume that this is only based on the persona of Biden or Harris or even the Democratic Party machinery. It's beyond that. And so it's unfortunate to see what's happening in the streets right now in New York yesterday. There were folks that are coming out demanding that all votes be counted. There were protests also in Detroit. Some of the Trump supporters took over one of the locations where folks were counting the votes. And so, you know, that's really disheartening, but it's not surprising. I mean, the four years of presidency of Trump have unleashed, you know, why supremacist groups that are not going to go home if Biden wins. So we're still going to have chaos in the street. We're still going to have major challenges as social movements because what they, the campaign, Biden's campaign has been good at, which has happened also historically, is co-opting and absorbing a lot of the unrest, you know, the righteous discontent of people and placing them into this anti-Trump campaign that is focused on getting Trump out, which we all want Trump out. And yet we also want systemic change. And we know. So it's just, it's a mess. I was, I was referring earlier as a UNO game, right? Take two, draw four, reverse, like that's what we've been kind of dealing with for the last two days. And most likely we won't stop this charade in this game till tomorrow because there's still states that are counting votes and, you know, Biden can't claim victory and neither can Trump. And this is just a disgrace and a dangerous disgrace at that here in the United States. Absolutely. Claudia, one of the aspects of this election was, of course, Trump has also got, like, like as obvious, he's got a considerable number of votes. And this has really destroyed this argument, which a lot of liberal sections were making that the Trump victory in 2016 was some kind of aberration that, you know, that's, this is not the normal in the U.S. That was just one time a fluke sort of a thing. And what this election has demonstrated is that there are clearly very strong forces, social forces, which are, which have backed the kind of issues Trump was talking about, which has backed his policies, which has backed not only his policies, but also his ideology, so to speak, and which is brought out. You mentioned, of course, the armed gangs, which are the fascist gangs, which have come out also. So, could you maybe also talk a bit about that aspect in terms of how these forces could be elaborated and how these forces are actually not going back? I mean, I think it's important to understand that these are the roots of the United States of America. I mean, the United States of America was founded on the backs of black enslaved people, and it has continued to be so on the back of immigrants, on the back of so many historically marginalized groups, but the native communities, the native indigenous communities here are one of the leading communities that are mostly oppressed and mostly not mentioned. They're invisibilized completely. And so I think it's important for us to understand that history. That helps us understand where we are today, because none of that has left that's always been there. What the, you know, and I go back to the Democratic Party as, you know, the presumption of a progressive arm of the ruling class here, all they've done is, you know, cosmetically kind of put that covered it a little bit, at least domestically, because we know internationally they have been as warmongers as the Republicans. Like that's just that's structural. That doesn't change. But here in the United States, there's a sense of, you know, these are the lesser evil. And what this is demonstrating is that, you know, varying grains in our history, in our culture, in our relationships as citizens, we have the roots of, you know, exploitation of white supremacy, of patriarchy, of xenophobia. Like these are all the things that Trump in his four years and his campaign have kind of like opened up. It's been like a Pandora's box. It's been laying on the ground and, you know, it hasn't been tackled. And he had the opportunity to bring it out in the public sphere. And now, you know, folks who feel that way, folks who understand the United States in that way are coming out. And again, it's part of the culture is part of the history. It's something that at some point was deemed politically incorrect. And it's no, it's no longer, right? You have the validation from the White House that it's OK. And not only that, you have the state in the character of the police also validating some of that. And actually in many states also in strengthening it. And so it's something that it's not going to easily go away because it's part of the very heart is like part of the very roots of the United States is just being seen blatantly now. And whether the Democratic Party or, you know, anyone wants to reel that back, we need to start talking about material conditions, because a lot of the folks that have been culturally grasped by the ideology and the narrative of Trump, who are folks who suffer poverty, will not see their material conditions change. And so there is a shift in our narrative, a shift in our message that needs to happen. Definitely much more organizing, that is cross sexual, that is, you know, multiracial, that takes into consideration into consideration the different histories and our common history. And so there's a there's a long path ahead for us for some. Right, I actually wanted to ask you a bit more about that aspect because one of the things about your article was also you were talking about the kind of mobilizations that took place around the Bernie campaign, definitely. But more importantly, as well after George Floyd was murdered the mass protests that took over the streets of the United States demanding justice. And these were also accompanied by mobilizations around the issue of rent, around evictions, around health care. So there was this vast coalition of mobilizations of organizations that were building up. And I think in one of your earlier conversations with us, you had mentioned that, unlike in earlier times, these will not just be subsumed by the election campaign, and they're definitely going to continue. So from what we see on the ground from these movements, what do what do what looks like the path ahead? I mean, folks continue to raise the issue of unemployment. They continue to raise the issue of mass evictions that will happen in cold weathers for many states. You know, folks are still raising the issues of health care. I mean, these are all things that whether Democrats or Republicans when we won't see any changes to. I mean, in fact, when Biden was confronted in the last debate around health care and socializing it, he made sure to say, I believe in private health care, you know? So I think it's important for us to to understand as citizens in the United States, but also internationally, that these are two sides of the same coin and the people will continue to do what we have done, which is struggle, which is uplift demands that are basic human rights demand. And I think one very important demand that is at this particular moment becoming national and that we need to be paying attention to is the issue of voter suppression. People are noticing, you know, why is there a electoral college that chooses the president when this country is so vast and large? Why are they are so so keyed into just several states? You know, why are why are they why are they ready for the millions and millions of people to vote if we have millions of people who are of age to vote, right? So there's so many things that are coming into question, but but are again, our task and our path ahead is precisely to continue to advance the struggle of the workers of the poor, the dispossessed, because we know that neither party's interest is it's it's on behalf or is representative of the majority of the people in the United States. We need to be able to start articulating and coordinating our efforts better. And we need to start thinking about a third party option, you know, that's something that's also come to the to the table. Like there are folks that are talking about the need of being able to put forth a party that is from the movements, that is for the people and that is, you know, able to articulate and to build the power necessary to be able to have political and economic power in this country. Absolutely. And Claudia, finally, one last point, of course, regarding socialism itself, which is again, we've discussed this before, it's always for long been quite a bad word as far as the US is concerned, but over the past couple of years, you've seen a huge revitalization of interest. The Bernie campaign, of course, contributed, but it's definitely not only that, it's also a lot of grassroots movements who have really pushed what do you call the ideology there talk to people have been conducting a lot of campaigns. So also, how do you see socialism and concepts associated with socialism also sort of coming into play in US society? I mean, as you mentioned, it's been something that's been under development in the last two or three years. Most of the folks that have been looking into socialism are young people, you know, a lot of the folks that backed the Bernie campaign precisely because at some point early on in his in his campaigning career, as for the presidency, he mentioned the word socialism. He assumed himself as such, even though that's debatable. But there are young people who have developed politically, looking into what socialism could be in the United States and what socialism has been outside of the United States. And so that's very hopeful. And I think, you know, a lot of the rhetoric and a lot of the work for grassroots organizing has also helped because even if folks don't claim to be socialists, they are objectively doing work that is related to socialism, which is basically to respond to the basic needs of the people. And so there is a there's a huge an increasing number of people who are very interested in learning more about socialism. I mean, from the people's form, we do a lot of political formation and we do it with the orientation that is mostly to build organization and to have folks understand the theory behind socialism. You know, and there there are just huge numbers of people that are looking to learn more. And that's very hopeful. You know, organizations that are connected to the popular education projects in the United States are also looking to understand more. And that's, again, a very hopeful sign. But we can't stay in the hopeful moment. We can't stay in the hopeful stage. Like we need to be able to move that forward. And and that's why organization is so key. And that's why coordination is so key. And I think that that's where we are as movements in the United States looking to figure out a way of touching each other, speaking to each other, coordinating with each other, dreaming radically with each other about what a future would look like in the United States. That is not the dominance, the hegemony of capitalism. Thank you so much, Claudia, for speaking to us. Providing me. That's all we have time for today. We'll be keep we'll keep covering the US elections in the following days as well, especially its ramifications on international politics, on regime change operations across the world, which are definitely said to continue and also inside the country as well, the signs of hope that are emerging. Keep watching NewsClick and People's Dispatch.