 And this is the OGM weekly call on Thursday, February 15th, 2024. OGM means Open Global Mind. We have a check-in format today, which means I will describe our check-in routine in a second. But we don't have a particular topic. We alternate weeks. So next week will be a topic. But we do have in two hours, so after this call, a specific topic call, in fact, is the beginning of a series of four calls on the topic of governance. And anyone who would like to come in is the same Zoom as this in two hours. And this call should last 90 minutes. Now I need to figure out how to get rid of the little transcript that's showing up in the bottom of my screen. Welcome. There we go. How is everybody, just before we go into the check-in round? How are y'all holding up? OK. Scott's got a thumbs up. That's good. Yeah, really well. Excellent. Good. Aguila is medium rare, up and down. Mostly solid, but it varies. Ken Homer has attained a high-speed wobble. I'll elaborate to check in. Stacey, what part of the planet do we find you in this morning? North Carolina. Sweet. With computer issues. Not so sweet. Nice to see you all. Today is check-in format. So let us step into that. And normally, we've done a sort of a slow check-in, each of us as we used to do. And I'm going to ask that as we check in, we sort of focus our thoughts a little bit and head toward something that is top of mind for us that we're working on and just reporting with a little bit more brevity. And that will give us time. Because usually, when we're doing check-ins lightly, we eat all of our time in check-in and don't get to do any discussion. So I would love us to be a little more focused in the check-ins. And again, the general routine for check-ins is I will step out. So it's up to you all to step into the conversation. Feel free to take pauses between the check-ins. The pauses are special and interesting. Do not check in twice during the check-in round. I'm sort of watching to make sure everybody checks in every now and then I mess that up and forget somebody, but that works out pretty well. And then let's try not to use the chat very much during the check-in part of the call. I will release us all into normal conversation at the end of check-in. Then we can, if you want to take your notes in a separate notes app, then that's a good time to sort of paste your notes or whatever else you wanted into the chat then. I will occasionally use the chat to welcome somebody who comes into the call and doesn't know what we're up to and explain a little bit of the process. But other than that, this is usually pretty self-steering. Did I forget any parts of our regular routine? Cool. So again, I'm asking us to be a little bit more focused and piffy in our check-ins to go like with the thing that's top of mind. And then we'll have a chance to talk more when we've done the check-in. With that, I'm going to apply Mute to myself, which is a new topical cream. And see who wants to jump in first. Oh, and please use the electronic hands to form a cue or if there's no cue then do step in. But the electronic hand raised is actually our way of knowing who's next in the check-ins. Thanks, Scott. Well, I guess I don't need to pause for reflection after your introduction. So why I'm feeling good right now. I've decided, well, I've reconnected with my love of beauty. So I like beautiful things. And that could be everything from visuals to sounds, smells, all kinds of good stuff. And to that end, I have a nice little window right behind me, looks out to the woods. And I've done some things like I got myself a nice little pair of binoculars. Once in a while, I just turn around and look at the trees. It makes me happy. It makes me so happy. I can't even explain it. I took three college, three classes in high school with photography, took a couple of classes, I'm a graphic designer. That's always been interesting to me. I found a brand new camera that has a retro look to it. It looks like the camera that I bought in 1984 to do that stuff. It has these little dials that I can click and turn and it's not a tap screen, it actually is physical. I'm now back into photography as opposed to tapping pictures on my phone. It's engaged me with my environment. I can take a photo of a chair that's in the living room and suddenly there's an aesthetic enjoyment of the beauty of this form. I have my little favorite little bowl which has been sitting on a shelf at the bottom of the living room and now it's back in my office. And it's one thing that I can tap every now and again and just feel that little beauty just for a moment. So it's something that I've really enjoyed. I put a little keyboard in my desktop that I can use to play around with. So that's something that I've been doing is to try to, instead of squeezing it into spaces, little tiny corners, make it something that I enjoy in moments all day long. So as far as project updates, I have about 35,000 words written for my framework of frameworks book and I'm now going through the editing process which is more challenging than the writing process because how short do you make it? How long do you make it? What do you include and not include? So I'm enjoying that, but I'm finding it difficult because I completed it in a sense. I completed the first draft and now there's a certain amount of motivation and momentum that is lost because the first draft is done. And so I'm trying to re-engage and get that back together. So that's me. Thanks. Well, I guess I'll go. I had my hand raised. I was sort of waiting for teacher to call on me but the teacher has the mute cream on. So a thing I'm doing that I like a lot is doing reels at where I live on a river. And so I'm going out and just seeing what's new and different than I'm looking at on my piece of a river that I walk on, I live on. And I'm getting up to like 1,000 views a day. It's kind of crazy. Lots of people I don't know. I mean, they don't tell you who likes it. They don't tell you who views it. They tell you the few who like it. So that's interesting. The project I'm really having super fun with is figuring out how to distribute a watershed dividend in the Swannanoa River watershed that we'll be getting from the sale of carbon on local farms. And it has two parts. The money from the carbon will be given in a land-backed tax with some folks who work with the local Cherokee and we'll figure out other things beyond there. And then the community will figure out what to do with the watershed dividend and what they should spend on first but it needs to enhance the viability of the local small farmers that are in our zero interest loan platform. So, you know, soil health, water health, social determinants of health next to the river and places where, you know, there's bad drainage and other things like that. So gathering a group, meeting every other week but there's drill-down groups now starting with people who really know things. And the watershed fund has hired somebody who is both a permaculture farmer and a Harvard MBA and you don't need to, you can actually learn some good things at Harvard and some approaches. And so, you know, don't think badly just because she's got the two masters from Harvard because she really, you know, I think we'll help guide this process. And my daughter is gonna help guide the conversations around it, keep it interactive and she can be an expert and BJ will help people, you know, do the interactive thing, you know, break into small groups and discuss and listen and all that stuff that I wouldn't have thought of but she's gonna be good at. So, okay, that's it. Morning everybody and good evening, Hank. I, whoops, sorry, my screen is doing something. I don't know if this violates the protocol but I just want to say, Kevin, I am deeply inspired by what you're up to there. I mean, both the general approach and the specifics and how you're doing it, it's just really, it's thrilling and rich. And I think there's, you know, very, very important leads there for lots of other stuff. So thank you for that. And thanks for doing it with us the way you're doing it. I would just say quickly, I think people will be able to deal with a regular infusion of abundance at the system level better than they can argue about scarce resources than the world they see. So that's my premise. That's as much of a theory of change as I have and then let other people figure out from there. Yeah, and that- So commenting on what Kevin said is rock and roll. Let's not fall into conversation, please. Let's just make the check-in round. Well, I like the Kevin Burr protocol with this comment on my illegal comment because that was a good seal with a kiss on top of the thing. So top of mind for me is make sure I don't run out of electrons. Somebody else go next and I'll come back, okay? Well, maybe I go next. So this next iteration of engagement in the climate, food and act culture sector is really dependent on building networks that can collaborate. And just like Kevin is also doing, you need specialists with very specific know-how to come together. And in a perfect world, you want to find projects that create excitement, that show potential and come from this abundance theory perspective. So one thing that I'm currently working on is to connect a supply chain from farmers, grain farmers with a flour mill operator with a company that's called Plant Hub that is extracting proteins out of plant-based materials with a CPG operator that is a consumer packaged goods operator that is using raw materials to put it into, to put into consumer products, no, frozen canned, whatever. And to create this consistent supply chain because what is literally exploding in the food business is plant-based protein extracts. And fermented foods, meats, using fermentation for proteins. And the source material is typically coming from soy and corn from commodity crops, which are highly damaging. So by turning this whole design upside down and starting with farmers informing the project what they need to grow to restore their soil back to health and then aligning that with a customized milling capacity and a Plant Hub that can extract protein out of just about anything, any type of grain and sunflowers and you name it. And then aligning that with a CPG manufacturer who then brings market information back and forth about what are the most promising products that you can put out on the market. So to create this net, this line of farm to table. And so we have aligned now a farming co-op in the Paloos with a, we were negotiating with flower mills to do a customized, right-sized facility. Blendtub is in the picture. Blendtub is a company that uses Siemens technology. Siemens invented a technology that is mounted on a 40-foot container, can be shipped anywhere out of the factory and into the protein extraction. Plus they already have installations in several countries, Mexico, India, Indonesia and so on. So they have been trying to get into the North American market and haven't been able to figure out how to do it. So I see this kind of aligning of people of companies that have shared interests, complementary interests as a way to move forward and build something. So we are setting this up as a pilot project. The entire emphasis here is on building replicability of this model. And we have some amazing partners in the Paloos because there are two extensions, Washington State and Idaho University extensions. Yeah, so that's sort of my, let's do something, right? Let's just like Kevin, let's just work on something. We have been talking for years about how bad everything is. Yeah, you just got to put some brapa on the road. Do you have a link somewhere you could drop in the chat? Yeah, I can. Thank you. So I'm back and I have electrons. Klaus, thanks for that. Several things top of mind for me. One is the election, of course. Nine months to major turning points perhaps in the world we live in. I'm finding that doing less news and more music is part of my strategy for engaging that world. So Scott, yeah, yeah, on beauty. Thank you for that share. Have we lost Scott? Well, and on the music note, I discovered last night something called web amp. I don't know if people have seen it, but I tracked down. I followed a link to a Grateful Dead concert with Branford Marsalis. Mm, sweet. Link went to Internet Archive. Internet Archive said you have a choice of listening to it this way or web amp, and web amp is phenomenal, much higher quality of music and lots of control panel controls if you want to play with that sort of thing. So there's that. Other thing top of mind for me is approaching my coaching work as a business, not as an activity. I'm really trying to crank that up into something that is stable and reliable and a source of revenue that can enable me to then do the other wilder and more entrepreneurial things that I feel called to do but can't focus on because of need to stabilize cash flow. So that's underway. I could talk more about the specifics of that another time but it's gratifying and already buried fruit. And I will mention, Jerry, you'll tell me if I'm out of bounds here that we welcome referrals and we'll reward them. I'll pay finder's fees either to you or to your favorite NGO for any referrals that come to me. And if folks are interested, I can provide a link to stuff on that. The other thing interesting about coaching though is as I've said before, I've been like a lot of us doing a lot of work of using and exploring and building AIs. And so we're a couple of months into a project of building what I think is a pretty sophisticated coaching bot. You know, a lot of people doing these these days but the approach we're taking feels distinctive, not like anything I've seen before. It's really rich in what it's offering but it's also fascinating the process of building it. I'm working with a guy who comes out of a programming world who tends to think in terms of mechanistic algorithms, if then, kinds of loops, nested if then loops. And in my experience, human conversation is something much less definable than that. There are aspects of that in it. I mean, if I go off the rails, Jerry is going to bring me back and say, this is a check-in call. There's things you could define as if thens but there's something much messier and cloudier and emergent in human conversations. And so we're exploring how to capture that and it's a very interesting design tension between the, for what I'm a better word, I'll say the programmatic and the emergent. And so we are both building something and also exploring a space that I've never been in and learning a lot reflexively about what it is that I do in conversations, what happens in conversations, what supports the richness of the emergent human experience. So we demoed the living between worlds AI, Ken and I in a call in December, that's can continue to evolve and get exposed sooner. The coaching thing is down the road a ways, but at some point I'd love to bring it here and give you all a chance to kick the tires and tell us what we're missing. So, and yeah, I'm just giving a lot of attention to conversations and not just the speaking aspect of it, but the listening, learning a lot about how to listen deeply and how to listen, not just for do I like what you said? Does it fit my worldview? Can I do something with it? But listen for in a much more open process of discovery. Curiosity, even across apparent big differences between humans, which actually will pertain on our governance conversation, but since we're not allowed to talk about that, I'll stop that. I'll try to be brief as suggested to quick thoughts. One had meetings the last couple of weeks with the folks at Hilo and yesterday met with them and our development folks. And I think we've got maybe the starting of a new relationship that will help to integrate some of the work we've been doing with what they're doing. And hopefully we can find ways to support one another at some foundational stuff, which sounds promising. So I'm excited about that. Second is the serving life booklet had the opportunity over the last couple of weeks to speak three or four folks, including Hank about the booklet. The Society 2045 folks have been discussing it as well. So we're getting further down the road with it. And this week got really excited about the promise with Neil Books being a really good fit for what we're thinking. So it's feeling more and more like it sinks in like with what we were hoping to do. So that's feeling that the technology piece and the content piece are really starting to come together and look forward to bringing some more information to you folks about participating as well. And that's it for me. Thank you. Good morning all, it's good to see you. Couple things going on for me. Plexus coming out next Wednesday and I'm looking for people to describe communities they're in kind of like a journalist. And it can be a really short description like a paragraph or something like that. Maybe you wanna check, I like the idea actually of it's not an official description. It's somebody in the community is saying, hey, this is the community I'm in and here's some of the stuff that's going on and you should check it out because check if that's okay to do with your community leader but send me an email if you can do that for a community that you're in. I'm peripherally involved kind of in some book stuff, new books and then AI collaboratively written AI book that we published via Kindle Direct Publishing. It's actually a paperback first and it will be a Kindle soon. So I've got an Amazon author page because of that which is an interesting place to be. And separately from new books and AI book, Jordan Sukut has been looking to publish some of this is his books from his Linesburg Wookie into E-Books and print. And so I'm working with him. We took a project to get one of them published this month taking it from Obsidian all the way through, you can buy it online. So as part of that project this week is like, well, we kind of rolled up our sleeves and I snowplowed into how to publish a book on Lulu and Jordan and I spent about an hour and a half doing that together. And then he took some homework to write a better sample book. We just made up a 14 page dumb, literally AI generated mush thing to try and we didn't click publish. But I said, the next step is to make this a little bit better and then click publish and then buy it from ourselves and see whether we like the feel of it and how the buying process goes. So like two days after Jordan and I had that exercise together, he messaged me and said, hey, Pete, I published a book. So during that process, it was really interesting because in one sense we're all kind of used to the idea that anybody can go to a blog, a webpage or something and say something to the world, but it still feels a little bit different when it's a book that you could buy and it's in print and stuff like that. So at some point during that process, we got ready to push the print button but it wasn't printable book kind of Jordan said, wow, this is weird, like we have the power of the press and it's like some of that kind of old legacy feel for what a book is came back and rushing back. And then later in the week, he's like, okay, well, I'll publish the book, we'll move on to the next milestone. Now we're gonna publish a bunch of books. I'm super excited about AI still, that's where I'm spending most of my time. I've started teaching in a community called AI Swan. I'm teaching people how to get started with AI and do different cool stuff with it, both language bots and image bots. I'm trying to get some of that to turn into paid classes and paid seminars. And then I'm also trying to figure out how every day, each day, every day, I see like dozens of objectively beautiful things that I've created with mid-journey and it frustrates the hack out of me not to be able to share them effectively with people. And the problem there is it's cool if Pete sends you one or two pictures in an email, but what if Pete sends you a dozen or two dozen or 50 or a hundred? At some point, Pete, I can only look at so many objectively beautiful things before I'm complete. And that range is different for different people and I think part of it is some of the people that I need to be reaching are also going to be making their own stuff. So that's been really frustrating. That's where I'm stuck right now. Not stuck, I'm doing stuff, but stuck delivering on what I want to deliver. I think it's pretty obvious at this point as I see more and more people adopt AI stuff, there's gonna be a big chunk of it which is kind of just like it's gonna go into the background and it's gonna be part of your search experience and part of your email experience and part of your drafting experience with documents. There's another level where you actually go in and use the AI a little bit more assertively than it's just helping you in the background doing stuff and that helping you do stuff, sorry, being more assertive with it, using it as a tool for crafting, doing creative stuff and design stuff with the tools is something that's going to help people be more human. So that's the really cool part of where you are with generative AI. It's fun to talk about, oh my God, the AI's are gonna take over and rule the world and we're not even close to that, but it's really easy to see also that it's going to be a really generative force for and make lots of people be able to do things that they couldn't do before. So that's exciting. Thanks, that's me. Some really good taking so far. Glad to hear about all the things that are top of attention for people. As I've said in the last couple of times, I've been in the conversation, the importance of thinking about and renewing ideas about governance and democracy are very top of mind these days. Next Tuesday, I'm flying to Iceland to help facilitate the conference on a lab. About that, and today I spent a couple of hours drawing up a kind of survey of values and cultures which we're going to ask the 70 or 80 people who attend the conference to fill out to get some feeling about how people say what think their values are and what they actually do in daily practice. But thing that's extremely top of mind these days is also related to democracies and governance. Yesterday, we had an oracy lab conversation about following question. Do people in democracies have the right to not see, to look away, to deny, to ignore, to not be bothered? Do they have the right to remain silent, to not speak up? And we had six people from six different countries, took part in a 100 minute conversation. Some of them were older democracies, some of them were newer democracies, but they all considered themselves democracies. And I will hopefully write something about that for the bi-weekly Plex, not this next one, but one coming up further away at March. But my takeaways were very interesting, at least for me. We know lots of ways to involve people in open, honest conversations with deep listening and questioning the meaning of the things they say. But we have almost no idea how to do the same things with larger groups, with groups of hundreds or thousands of people for broad societal conversations. And I think that's something the world should be practicing and prototyping and experimenting with in the coming months and years. People, as was said in the conversation, are very often in the selfish corner, but how do you help people get out of the selfish corner? And democracies guarantees their citizens' rights not to speak up. They have the right to look as way as much as they want. So we have to think a lot more deeply about that and what rights and responsibilities and obligations for citizens in democracies might be. And this last one, how to stimulate large-scale conversations about the idea of a bill of responsibilities or a bill of human obligations. As probably the UNDP wrote papers and published them online about seven or eight years ago about the Declaration of Human Responsibilities and the Declaration of Human Obligations. And they've never entered the popular common conversations that people have. And is it useful and is it easy to do that? And just one other item that came out of that ORC conversation, we always talk about getting people out of the box, but often people and ourselves end up talking in circles. So how do you get people thinking out of the circle? That's my take in for now. So my screen is a little weird and I can't tell whether I'm up or I think I might be next. What's on my mind a lot is oil company executives. How come there's no public dialogue with them about what they're doing with climate change? Why can't we demand that they be in a public discussion? Why isn't the New York Times saying it's editorial page? What are you guys really thinking? So here we have major agents in society who are totally not in the public conversation about what's happened. I find that pretty weird and distressing and I'll stop there. Jerry, I don't know if you saw this, but Eve, you can go anytime you'd like. You could just jump right in. Well, thank you. I love this group and every Thursday morning when I have something scheduled, I say, I can't believe I'm missing this. So I'm glad to be here, even though I only have 20 minutes or 22 minutes to be with you all. Yeah, okay, my check-in without hearing that many of your check-ins. Personally, just loving life in my personal life, I surrounded by love and here in the Bay Area in Berkeley and I still love it. It's a hellscape here, of course, so. Anyway, but I am working in the space of diversity and inclusion and I am just flabbergasted at the attack of something that seemed so core to equality is everything and I don't understand. So just watching what's been going on highlighted November, December and January and thinking, wow, we are here. We are in this really difficult place around that, but that's the only thing I wanted to bring up, yeah. You reminded me of something that I'm not sure if it's top of mind, but last Friday, April and I went to see Origin. A movie by Ava DuVernay about Isabel Wilkerson's book, Cast. And if you started reading Cast, you're like, there's no way someone makes a movie out of this book because it's an academic work. And they made a delightful and heart-rending movie out of it. We both thought it was really affecting and really good. And the thing that's top of mind that was just reinforced by that is why are humans consistently so shitty to other humans? What is the deal? It's all about power and whatever, I don't know, but I wish we could flush that from the human spirit entirely. And Eve, I'd love to book a call with you sometime and maybe strategize because I think that the whole anti-woke thing is strategy. It's very intentional, it's working really well and I'd love to sort of see if there's ways of lancing that boil somehow. But top of mind really for me is why are humans so crappy to other humans all the time with very little cause? Thanks. I'm wondering if there's a term to describe the kind of person who if there is an equality that it just crushes their whole heart and soul. Like, you know, if that's not the world that in which we live in or strive for or aspire to, I wonder if there's a, not that we need another other ring or group or whatever, but I just, it's really crushing me, crushing, you know? So yeah. Can you ask that question again once a couple more people have checked in? Cause in the check-in round, we try to go once and not enter a conversation and I love your question. So if you can bring that back to us when like there's four more people I think who haven't gotten yet, but thank you. I'll go because this is kind of relevant. And I apologize because Eve will probably have to drop off the line by the time we've done this. So somebody who could channel Eve and we were recording this and we'll post it and Stacy, I apologize for stepping on you, but it just dawned on me that Eve will be gone in a few minutes. So I was quiet at first because when I came in my check-in would have been that I'm feeling really nervous but it was like a nervous excitement. But part of what's causing that is that I've been putting myself into conversations that are more uncomfortable. And as an example, I've recently had one with two separate women and each of the two women had the same message which I was kind of on the other side of but with one of them because of where she is emotionally and who she is and at a different level by listening to each other we were able to see that there was a lot that we did agree on and that we were trying to come up with ways to combine our messages because each had validity to them and share them. The other woman, however, was reacting to what the first woman pointed out was not at a certain level of readiness to do that. And even though this was someone that I have always gotten along with she went on to say how disappointed she was in me and how incapable I was of, it was just like this whole attack which is kind of hard to maintain the level I wanna interact at and still feel that. So that's causing a little bit of my nervousness comes from my uncertainty. So it just throws me off just a little bit. Parallel to that, I'm here in North Carolina and a lot of you know that the person that I am so close to and we're both on the same frequency as far as hearts go, we have very different political views. And what I did yesterday because I am interested in democracy and a lot of the things that Hank pointed out I started reading out loud parts of the conservative 2025 platform project which is something that I actually wanna talk to some of you about at another time as I see a possible project with some overlapping. But so I read it out loud to her and then we stopped and I just asked certain questions just to sort of guide her to see how that well-intentioned piece that she might normally agree with could totally have different effects depending on who's in power. And we kind of talked to, I kind of talked about how important it is to have a structure that works regardless of who's in power and that still protects the same things that we agree on need to be protected. So I'll just stop there but I have a lot on my mind right now. I guess I'll jump into the quiet. I'm in a period of reflection and uncertainty about how I wanna spend my time and energies in the future. Some of my nonprofit involvements have come to the natural term limit ends and I'm trying to sort through what are the most important issues and opportunities for me to contribute personal energies toward and on what scale do I wanna try to stay local or do I wanna move into a lot? Some of my nonprofit work has been national in scale and the issues are so complex and the unevenness of human communication is so great that I'm finding it really challenging to narrow in and home in on how to best contribute to some constructive progress in a specific area. So I'm open to thoughts on how to sort of resort your identity at this advanced stage in life because it's not structured by an external environment as it was when I was working professionally or heavily involved in direct activities with the nonprofits. So I'm in a questioning open-minded what are the problems most important to me or the opportunities most important and how might I best contribute to those? Would it be better to do it locally, state level, et cetera? So anyone with some wisdom on that, I would welcome. That might be a dimension of governance by the way, Jerry because I think that many organizations are facing a change in participation in governance based partly on demographics and values of aging populations and next generation populations and so on. So that might be a dimension that would be worth exploring further. What's on my mind these days is well-being and I don't have as much of it as I would like at the moment. I got COVID-19 three weeks ago on Tuesday. I'm probably about 85 to 90% better but this last 15 to 10 to 15% is really hard climb. I'm just, I'm not feeling, not nearly as sick as I was but I wake up and I don't feel great I don't have a lot of energy and I was, I'm somebody who usually walks 46 miles a day at three, a little over three miles an hour. I work up a strength and I'm just like drained and in my professional work, I'm shifting my focus to well-being. I've done enough focus on problems for two long. So what, my wife teaches nutrition and it's a holistic natural nutrition school and even if you've got terminal cancer there are things you can do dieterrally to ease your journey so that you're not in so much pain. So I think, what if we start to focus on how to bring more well-being into these situations where we see so much pain and suffering or we see systems collapsing or under threat of collapse because the fear-based response, oh my God, what are we gonna do? And this is a problem and we have to fix it. It doesn't seem to be working very well. So I'm thinking a lot about well-being. How can I bring more well-being to my life, to the lives of other people? What kind of coaching offer can I put out for well-being? I'm developing a course, I've actually developed this course three times with three different people and they have all bailed on me towards the end and I've got two colleagues I've been working with now for over a year and we're pretty close to having it complete. And I'm just like, okay, this has to be, as I look at the next phase of my life, which is, I'm in the third act, I'm gonna be 67 pretty soon and I don't know how much fuel is left in the tank but I wanna make sure it's burned in as good a means as possible, doing as much good as possible. And it feels like well-being is the place, is a place for me to focus my time and attention energy, which I've been writing about in the past, you may notice some people think I'm Pollyanna because I don't wanna talk about the problems, I'm not Pollyanna, I know really well in my bones how bad things are but I also know that that creates a mood or a trapped mood of oh my God, what are we gonna do? And that doesn't connect me to resources. So instead, I heard this story about this guy in World War II, became a very famous person, I can't think of the same right now but he always said what's, how can this be the best possible thing to happen right now? And he was Jewish, he was in a building where the Nazis came in and they're looking for him. They normally had big fluffy hair and wore glasses and he heard the Nazis there, so he ran to the men's room and he took his glasses off and wet his hair back, slipped it back and walked right past him, walked out of the building. So you know, after I used this, he didn't freak out. And I feel like we're all, so many, not we're all, so many people are on the edge of freaking out about what's going on and they're not focused on, okay, you know, this, there's really bad stuff happening. How can we bring wellbeing here? So that's becoming my question, like my quest for greater wellbeing. Hi, Stacey, go ahead. I may have miscounted, but I think we've all checked in. We have, and I just wanna quickly say to Ken's point to tell you all of this series I just found called Resilience, Resilient Cities, and they did one on Beirut, one on Kiev, and I haven't seen the third one, but it's how they're using, how they're using art to transform the cities. I just wanted to mention that here. Some of you may enjoy it. Thanks Stacey. Eve, if you'd like to re-ask your question, we're done with the check-in round and game for conversation. Yeah, I don't know if it's as important. I was just asking the question if there's a term, there's probably a term already out there for people who maybe somatically feel energetically the things that are going on. And that specifically where equality comes into play. It's just a thing, it's always been this way for me since I was a little, little, little girl, that if there's not equality, it just crushes me. It's just, it's got this powerful, energetic aspect to it for me. I'm sure there's, must be a certain percentage of the population that have that. And I'm wondering if that's a nice place to start of those people who, if it really affects them to that level, then maybe they're the people that should actually be doing the work. And I see a lot of hands up. Thanks Eve. I'm Scott, if you put your hand up almost immediately then please go ahead. All right, I love all these little topics. It's so interesting. So I'm never sure if any of you are all interested in my pedestrian solo interests and pursuits, but you seem to comment about them. So I'll say that that's an ongoing, continuing positive thing to add to the group. So Doug, you were talking about the oil execs not being asked, what's going on? How do you explain yourself? Why do you justify all this? And I'm wondering, that's something I think about all the time is how, how much of the conversation and work doesn't really affect anything at all. I'm reminded of the classic Indiana Jones analysis that says, you know, Indiana Jones didn't change anything. If you take him out of the movie, exactly the same story happens. And this was a revelation to me. It's like, wow, I could be spinning on all this stuff all this time and I am not actually having an effect on anything. And I thought that was a very interesting thing. And it's when I really started to constrict and become more interested in the domain of change that I can affect, which is a lot smaller than I thought it was, but it's also been a lot more meaningful. And that's really been interesting is the connection with a small group or one person or a random interaction has been really interesting to me that I actually am doing something. I feel like even on a human scale, because I'm just one, now one person can communicate with many, many, but. So the only other thing I wanted to toss out there was comment about why are humans so crappy to each other all the time? And my first response is that, well, we seem to want people to be different. We want reality to be different than it is. And I think Doug has always been a proponent of saying, well, we need to accept it, we need to work with it. It has to, this is not, we're not gonna change that some people are more power driven or disagreeable or whatever it happens to be. At least not on a scale of billions of people. And so how do we work with that? But more importantly, I think the comment was, why are humans so crappy to other people without having any reason for any justification? Well, what about this? Why are humans so generous and kind to each other without any reason or cause for justification? I mean, it doesn't make any sense if we're out in the woods, living by ourselves. Like what is it that draws us to say, you know what, I don't have any reason. Going out of my way to help this other person is, I mean, it could be argued as a train of some kind. You're spending some of your life to do that. So why do we do that? Because that's been my experience, is that more people I know are kind and generous. And go out of their way and share and go without and donate. I mean, they give their life, which is their time. It's all you've got. And they're giving their life to help someone else. And I think it's real easy to say, yeah, everybody's so horrible to everybody else. Why is that? And I think, well, yeah, if that's your, that's the lenses that you've got on right now. And then that's all you see. But I just am not experiencing that in the people that I interact with actually, like the actual people who are next to me, not what I'm reading about, but what actually what I'm, when I'm really engaged with people, I'm finding them to be, well, to be flawed and wonderful, but generous, generally speaking and willing to accept and forgive. And you know, it's when we're talking about that mass that it's easier to say that everybody's terrible to everybody else. And I don't think that's true. I mean, Scott, I'll just respond to you for a sec before we're going to repeat in the queue. I have the same felt experience and lived experience, I think as you do, and partly because you and I surround ourselves by people like the folks who show up on this call, who are, I think in general, altruistic and helpful and generous and well spirited and so forth. My fear is that people who mean well and live well succumb to other people's structures and forces who are thinker in the minority on the planet, I really do, but who find ways to run the table and create systems like caste systems that tear holes in the social fabric and destroy people's lives senselessly and meaninglessly. And I'm trying to figure out what are defense mechanisms so that the people who are trying to do well by each other are the general winners and don't get subjugated and subjected to the other people's structures and force. And there's a general broad question of how do peaceful societies survive assaults by warrior societies, which is unfortunately happens all the time and is happening actively on the planet right now. So that's the general tenor. I agree entirely that my life experience is that I interact all the time and that's partly through choices and how we are in the world and who we attract around us. Go ahead, Scott. Just a 30 second response to that. My brain is going to my Thursday night hockey league, which is a bunch of police and fire and pilots and a pinball league that I play once a week. These are a bunch of random people from all ends of the spectrum, income, education and all that stuff. And it's not a group that I intentionally chose other than I want to play hockey on Thursday nights. I want to play pinball on Monday nights. Okay. And that's been my experience is that every single one of them would roll over to help me in a way that would be enormously challenging. Like, I don't get it. Like they'll always defer to, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, let's make this good. And so again, I don't think it's because I've sought out some open welcoming group. I've just found a group of people who happen to be getting together and they all, they're, they self-manage. They have their, who's in charge? Well, it's kind of loose. You know, it's self-organizing and I just think it's some, yeah, I don't think it's because I found a, tried to find a group that was open-minded. But they wanted to be a group. And even just that instinct leads you toward some kinds of behavior that are group-forming behaviors. There's a whole bunch of research also on altruism and all that, I'll paste a study in the chat that I found in my brain as you were talking in a sec. And thanks for that observation, Scott. Pete, Gil, let's say Stacy. Thanks. I'm gonna say three different things. I apologize for trying to pack everything in. The first one, the first one is, I really like when people testify about their life, what's going on in their, you know, their experience, their lived experience, which is a weird way to say that I wanna say, without intending harm on anyone or intending to influence anyone, I wanna say that in my life, my wife and I are still COVID cautious. The scientists that we listen to say that you should probably mask whenever you're around people that you don't live with with a reasonable mask and N95 respirator they're called. And that every time you catch COVID, you have a significant risk of worsening your health. It gets, it multiplies, it doesn't, you know, this is something that we don't hear from mainstream like the CDC. I think that's for political reasons, it's not for health reasons. So take it as you will. I really like Eve your question. It's a great question. And I know that I'm not actually somatically affected by things much, I'm blessed with a body that's fairly stable. I am hypersensitive though, parts of that is in my body, some like I get rashes and stuff like that, but I'm hypersensitive emotionally. And injustice or things like that hit me really hard. I have an amazing and tragic thing to relate, which is that a couple of years ago with increasing gun violence in the US, I had to come to terms with that because every time we had a school shooting or something like that, I would be like brain fogged for a couple of days. And it's like, okay, so I get it. So I came to terms with that with myself and I'm not proud of this and I don't like it, I really hate it. But it was like, okay, well, Pete, you happen to live in a society that values its, for whatever reason, I think it's not the individuals, I think it's structural stuff, but there's structural stuff that makes it so that our society finds it really important to have its guns and make them available to anybody and especially people who are unbalanced. And so the result of that is that, regularly, statistically, every couple of weeks, there's gonna be people who are getting shot up, innocent people getting killed, a lot of them kids, et cetera, et cetera. So I made my peace with that. It's like, okay, I live in a society where that's what we've decided where we've come to. We draw the balance between individual liberty and gun ownership at the place where it means that there's gonna be 8,000, 10,000, I don't know what, some number of thousands of tragic shootings every year. And so I'm like, okay, that's where I live. So when I hear the news of the next shooting, it's not two days of brain fog, it's like, well, I guess I move on, it's tragic. I would like to expand your question, Yves. Another thing that hurts me just as much as people being bad to other people is people being bad to animals, non-human residents of the planet. It pisses me off even more, actually. And there are people who do that on purpose, and a lot of us spend our lives kind of woefully ignorant of how humans are treating animals and or nature and getting away with it, right? So why are people so bad to, I mean, for me, the way it works for me, it's like, at least if you're being terrible to people in your family, like humans, that's one thing. But when you're going to somebody else's family and shitting on them, it's like, come on, don't we, didn't your mom teach you better than that? Didn't your grandma, like, hitch upside they had once or twice and say, don't do that, don't be a terrible person? Drives me completely bananas. And yet it's another thing where I kind of have to live with it. I think into that question of why are people, why are people bad to other people? Why are so many people bad to other people? One of them that I think to note, like Scott said, I think most people are great and wonderful and well-meaning and generous and helpful and things like that. And so into that mix, I'd see a couple of different things and when you differentiate them, you see them like, you see them better. So one of them is there are a few people who are for whatever reason, mostly trauma or brain problems or something like that. They're horrible, they're psychopathic, they're sociopathic. There aren't many people like that and they need help actually. And we need to figure out as a society to help them better, but there aren't many like that. So then there's another structural thing, like CASTS, where the way that society evolved ended up meaning that there's a tendency for some people to wanna be on top of other people and some other people unfortunately get to be on the bottom of that relationship. So there's structural things that happen and those are really hard to change. I think in the past, especially with, so yet another thing that's happened over the last, I don't know, 150 years, something like that where we've gotten good at propaganda and then social media happened and it just went wild. I think there are powerful people in the world who decided that they know the world better than everybody else and they're going to purposely trash big parts of society just so that they can get what they think is more fair or more better. And it's the weirdest thing to watch, but I think a lot of the stuff that we deal with in life is some multi-billionaire who is largely a multi-billionaire because of luck and maybe like family history and stuff like that. They got to a place where they said, you know, I'm going to shift the world. I'm going to make the world different. I'm going to make unfairness in this part of society and that unfairness is going to cause what I want to happen, right? And it's crazy making. And so back to coming to the people who are really affected by seeing unfairness in the world, I've learned one of the things that you need to do is to not get sucked into like mistaking one of those kinds of bad people for the other kind and realizing that a lot of times people are acting badly because they're playing out a script or forces that are much larger than themselves. That sounds really crazy and abstract, but I watched people caught up with, why are these people being unfair to us? Can't they see that what they're doing is unfair? And it's actually a social engineering hack that are making those people act unfairly. It's not what they believe. Lastly, it keeps coming up for me. I wish there were a place to have important conversations in a community forum. I feel like I know the technology for that. We used it for OGM Forum at software called Discourse. I keep wanting to set up a community forum for that. I can't do it by myself and especially I can't run the community that decides if we're having good conversations or bad conversations and helping more people join in that the good conversations there. If you're interested in that, I guess I'll start talking about that more, make a project and maybe we can create a public place for better discussions. Thanks. Thanks, Pete. Gil, let's say Stacy and feel free to take your time stepping in. Let me see if that can be compact like this. I appreciate the points that Jerry and Eve and Pete raised and there's a thread among them for me. And I'm provoked and frustrated by all of them. So Eve, I like your question except for the part about what would we call these people? So I'm not interested in categorizing or labeling or putting any kind of box around it because these are qualities that are there and not there with all of us some of the time varying degrees and so the qualities I'm very interested in but the naming I'm not. I'm like you, I am deeply baffled by the cruelty that I encounter in the world that comes to me through media and so forth. I fortunately don't see a lot of it in my personal life but it struck me these last few years something very different between callousness and indifference and not caring. Compared to what seems like an active cruelty. I'm not active, I'm active, A-C-T-I-V-E and it baffles me. But it seems to me that there are not just two moves to make. One is to be crushed by it and go into a tailspin and the other is to just say that's how it is and move on. There's a third option which I think is kind of where most of us tend to be which is, you know, how can I be an agent of change in that? How can I help move things in some way so that it becomes less normal and less expected? And, you know, for me, one of the resonant examples of that and it may be as tried by now but, you know, when I came of age and was learning how to drive, it was cool to be able to drink and hold your liquor and drive. It was considered cool. It was considered like an elevated sign of masculine bullshit of some sort. And because a couple of mothers who had lost their daughters to drive drivers got totally fed up with it. That has changed in this culture and it took some time and it still happens but the norm is different. It's no longer cool in most society. It's the behavior has shifted, the acceptance has shifted. And so, you know, they somehow took them themselves out of a mood of resignation. Like, oh, well, this is how it is. It really sucks. There's nothing I can do about it. It's the human condition. It's human nature. There's nothing to be done. And this is a mood that a lot of us live in all the time. You know, it's just how it is. Nothing can be done, which is different than, you know, a more serene acceptance of this is how it is and now what do I do with that? Jerry takes me back to your question. Which is a good question except for the last three words. Not like us? You said, why are humans so consistently shitty to other humans all the time? All the time, okay. And a number of people have flagged that in this conversation you even did. How about so often? No, no, what I want to get into something else. The more interesting question to me is why did you ask that question or put it another way? Why did you formulate your discomfort in those words? Which, what, you know, what mood were you speaking out of when you said that? What was your, you know, what was your assessments of the world that you were speaking out of that had you add those three words that really profoundly changed the question? Interesting. I'm wondering how it changes the question for you. I'd love to hear more about that. And I think, I think origin. Yeah, go ahead. I think origin put me in the same frame of mind as Hidden Figures and The Green Mile and a series of movies that have dramatized. And I'm not a big fan of over-dramatization and all that kind of stuff. I love the dogma movement. But hey, these movies that are really good job of dramatizing situations in which systemic injustice was just perpetrated on people who had been born. I think they've lost the birth roulette, basically. That's all, that's all. They've been born into a place and people which the dominant caste system of their society deemed inferior. And it's just horrifying. And it happens to very large swaths of the planet. And the job that Wilkerson does really well on caste and that I think origin uncovers really well is the job of saying, hey, this isn't really about race. It's about caste. And that's how she glues together. American basically slavery in the US and prejudice against black people in the US with the caste system in India, with the Nazi persecution of Jews in the Holocaust. And she makes a very strong case that those things are all of a kind. So if you'll permit me. Please. You just gave a very brainiac answer to a very personal question. So I was asking you about what is the mood and interpretation that the question you asked rose out of? Look, if the question is, why are humans shitty to other humans? I get it. That animates me and I think a lot of us here. But to turn that into why are humans so consistently shitty to humans all the time is speaking to me more about you than about the nature of humans in the world. I'm wondering if that hits other people the same way. And what I mean is that for such long stretches of human history, overwhelming numbers of humans have been subjected to systems that do this to them. Maybe. Really long stretches, like huge. And it's ongoing today all over the place. And we talk about the things are getting better. Look, infant mortality is down and poverty is rising. And I'm like, yeah, but people are still being shitty to other people constantly and the systems that they live inside of are kind of authorizing it and reinforcing it. And I say all the time, because my perception of it is that possibly, and I haven't run stats on this, the majority of the population for a big chunk of history, not all of time, has been in this kind of way. And I am a person of privilege. I kind of won the birth lotto. I'm a white male born in the US, living in the US. I'm unlikely to be subjected to these kinds of things. And I think I feel a considerable guilt for that and want to be helpful to people who are suffering from this. Also my family barely escaped Germany in 39. There's a quarter of me as Ashkenazim. And but for the grace of God, I wouldn't be here at all or I would be persecuted. And that factors in some as well. I don't wanna monopolize this between the two of us, but I do wanna say one thing. You said you haven't run stats on this, but you're speaking as though you have. That's all I'm saying. I think a lot of us generalize from what we perceive or see or read or felt, and that's what I'm doing here. I'm probably generalizing a bunch. If you think of the caste system in India, that's a huge number of humans subjected to this systematically. If you think of Gasta in South America, which the Spaniards and Portuguese basically brought and imposed on Africa, like colonialism, yeah. You can stack up all the evidence that you want and we all know it and it's there and it's real and I don't mean to deny it at all. But Scott, for example, and others were talking about the experience of human life lived and human compassion and care and nurturance and advancement. And to your comment that this has always been this way, I would just go back to our friends, Graeber. I did not say this has always been this way. I definitely did not say that. You said all of human history. No, I said through much of history, most people most of the time, but for me, when growing Graeber saying, hey idiots, there's other ways of organizing society. That's why I'm doing the governance calls after this because I believe this is a much better way. And I think part of the problem is freeing ourselves of these artificially created caste institutions that keep us from doing the natural things that humans would like to do, which are about altruism, cooperation, et cetera, et cetera. So you're pushing the needle right into the right place, I think, but I'm not saying that this has always been this way at all. I'm saying, why do so many people suffer under these artificial systems, which are unnecessary and not the natural way for humans to be? So to my ears, so many is a better phrase. So many works well. And I'm really appreciating that you pointed out what words and what I was saying didn't work for you at all. So that's great, that helps me a bunch. And I'll let other people dive in. Thanks, Gil. And we've got a bunch of people and only 10 minutes left in our official call, but... Thanks for being open to the poke. Thanks, Gil. And I really appreciate it. Jose, then Stacey, then Klaus, because Stacey, I think you filled out a bit here earlier. So let's go, Jose, Stacey Klaus. So, I'm sorry, there's only 10 minutes and three of us to speak, so I'll try to be quick. First of all, I think we know why people do what they do. We know that as a community, we can alter the way we see other people. We can alter the way we see animals. We can alter the way we see nature by telling stories about what those things are. And that's it. That's as simple as I think the story is. And we can dehumanize other humans. We can call them vermin. We can call them all kinds of other things, godless and whatever else. And before you know it, we're at war. Before you know it, we can take 18-year-old kids to go over there and kill those vermin because those 18-year-old kids believe what we told them. And I think that that aspect of us is one that we don't talk enough about, that we don't focus on the reality of as organisms, we are influenced by the stories that we tell. And the most fundamental story that I think, sorry, I'm getting it wrong, I'm just getting a call. I think the most fundamental story that we all have or most of us have and share with one another is that, and was said today a couple of times, I think the most fundamental story that we all have or most of us have at times that we're imperfect, that we're, that humans are broken, that we're not, that somehow there's such a thing as perfection and that somehow there's such a thing as being human that is more or less different than being an organism that's capable of learning how to act. And then if I learn how to act in an environment that causes me to act poorly, then I'm as human as everybody else, but it's that environment that created me in part. And so how do I blame others for their environment and their stories and their influences and forces on their lives for their behavior? I think we give ourselves way too much credit for being able to think out of the box when society has him to send. We're neither good nor evil is my view. And the only thing that makes us so is the stories we believe. So I'm confused because it seems like you've said two in my mind contradictory things, which is on the one hand, hey, societies are easily shaped by narratives and stories, which I totally agree with. There's a thought in my brain that says we are in a Titanic battle or the narratives in our head or the ideas in our head, stories are the weapon or whatever. I'll place the link in the chat. And then you said, oh, and who are we to accuse other people of their story and there's no way we can change this? We should just muddle through is what I heard you say in addition to that. No, I'm not saying that there's no way we can change it and I'm not saying that we shouldn't try to change it, but what we shouldn't do is attack the individuals. Okay. What we should do is attack the stories. Okay. So it's tactical advice in some sense. Well, thanks Jose. Thank you. Stacy then Klaus. So what I was gonna say is that for most people when we're interacting with somebody else, we're largely impacted by the perceived threat that we have from the other person. And I don't mean physical threat. I mean threat to an idea, whatever. And I suspect to what Jerry alluded to in terms of Scott's group, that there are a certain amount of individuals in that group that resonate at the same level, the same heart level as Scott does. There are probably also some other individuals that don't, but they're elevated by the group and to Jose's point, the story that they know because they're in relationship with each other. I forgot the second part of where I was going with that now. So I started thinking about Jose. I can stop there. That's all right. I sometimes use the chat to just type things in without entering them, just as a placeholder. So I don't forget things I wanna say. Oh, that's what I wanted to say. See, it came right back. What I would ask you, Scott, is like when you said that they would do that for you and the whole group is like that, my quest, what I would suspect is that there are some people in that group that would do that for Gil or Klaus or anyone, even if they didn't know them, but other people that would only extend themselves in that way to you, based on how well they know you. And like I said before, there's no threat there. And there's the point. It's a very interesting comment, Stacy, and there was a comment I was about to put in the chat, but I deleted it and now it seems relevant again. This group seems to say, yeah, but a lot. And by yeah, but I mean, well, maybe I did put it in the chat, that we're somehow acknowledging the good and the 12 people in the group that are awesome, apart from the two people who are kinda jerks, to your point. It's like somehow that acknowledging that or celebrating that is disrespectful to the serious concern for the negative. And I'm not trying to diminish that. I'm just saying that I'm entering into this group and my general perception is that everyone's getting along and maybe they're all pulling towards a better place because there's 12 who are great and two who are not. Who knows? But I'm really not inclined to say, oh yeah, but yeah, there's those two who are awful. And if I talk about how awesome this group is, I'm really not acknowledging that those two are there and that's gonna taint, it looks like the little drop of black paint in a bucket of yellow, you know? It's like, do I really want that to color the whole thing? I don't know, I'm not inclined to do that and I feel like we tend to do that where we see one thing of good news and then we say, yes, but if I just go bigger, then we've got, what is it, racism and murder and starvation and caste and we can always pile on all the negative. And to me, that's a horrible way to live because that's not how I want to see things. Yeah, there's all those things going on, but why would I want to only surround myself with the vision of that? But I don't know, call me Pollyanna or Naive. All right, Pollyanna. Scott, you've just opened up another hour's conversation and we only got a couple of minutes in this call, but I appreciate what you just said and kind of want to bank it and bring it back in maybe next week or something like that because these are all really good places to start. Let's go Klaus and Ken and I'm hoping also Ken has a poem in his pocket for us. Yeah, I'm just speaking as I'm listening in another conversation. The most consistent story throughout history has been how societies have framed a narrative that turned them into a warrior caste, the Mongolians and the Roman Empire and what have you all into a relatively stable and peaceful society and how throughout time the tendency for aggression has created this race to the bottom over and over and tossed over and changed what could have been a benign and peaceful society. And so today we have a big battle over narrative again. Now, there are a number of thinkers, I'm thinking about Sorokin for example or Michio Kaku who have defined this era that we are living in right now as a transition phase that is critical in advancing us to live in harmony with our environment, to maintain a living planet because we have reached numbers and volumes and impact that no longer allow a civilization to pack up and move to a different location. The planet is full and packed. So we have to change the narrative that drives us. And I don't think we'll be talking about this later but I don't think the political system in itself matters much. What matters is the story that people have come to embrace and to believe in and act out on. And that's where right now we can see the way that we are struggling to find a path forward. We have all the technology, we have all the knowledge to radically change the way we interact within our own societies and with others and with the planet itself but we don't have the story to guide that. So that's really where it's a fight over narratives. And I think the major philosophers and thinkers of our time are all basically on that very same theme. Thanks Klaus. I'll be very brief and I do have a poem. Thanks. I was saying you're back, you're about to leave but I was gonna comment on your thing about things are far more mysterious than I think we are. A couple of weeks ago, Jerry was talking about being part of Constellation. I stood in a Constellation and represented somebody and I said something that I apologize for because I thought it was a very flippery mark and I was told afterwards by the person who knew who I was representing and said, no, no, that was exactly what he would say. There are fields we interact with that are beyond our ability to know that have a profound impact on us. So that's my comment. I don't normally choose a poem before our calls because I try to source from the call what's going on but I chose this and I think it actually works really well and I chose it also because it's February, it's Black History Month and I thought I would honor my Angela. So you've probably all know the name of this. It's Cage Bird. A free bird leaps on the back of the wind and floats downstream till the current ends and dips his wing in the orange sun's rays and dares to claim the sky. But a bird that stalks down his narrow cage can seldom see through his bars of rage. His wings are clipped and his feet are tied so he opens his throat to sing. The caged bird sings with a fearful trill of things unknown but longed for still and his tune is heard on a distant hill where the caged bird sings of freedom. The free bird thinks of another breeze and the trade wind soft through the sighing trees and the fat worm is waiting on a dawn bright lawn and he names the sky his own. But a caged bird stands on the grave of dreams. His shadow shouts at nightmare screen. His wings are clipped and his feet are tied so he opens his throat to sing. The caged bird sings with a fearful trill of things unknown but longed for still his tune is heard on a distant hill where the caged bird sings of freedom. Thank you very much. This was a great call, I really appreciate it. I will see some of you in 24, 26 minutes when we'll start the next call. Same Zoom on governance. Let's see if we can get someplace on that. But thank you a lot. Feel free to suggest on the Mattermost Channel or elsewhere topics how to frame our next call which is not a check-in call but rather a topic call here. So 8 a.m. next Thursday. How would you like us to lead in there? Let loose on the Mattermost Channel please or on the OGM list if you prefer. But thank you so much. Thank you.