 Thanks everyone So I hope this is why everyone is here if not the walk of shame you're welcome to take the walk of shame That's a terrible thing to say people actually have to take the walk of shame so This is what we're gonna be talking about today. Let's talk about why we're here Planning whether it's the the processes we're gonna talk about the the documents that we're gonna create in order to make this work We want to put those in place We'll talk a little bit about why first you're probably wondering why there's a picture of me with my you know The international no symbol up there and why I didn't get the same lovely long introduction that everyone else got Process is great And the end product is what we really want but the old saying garbage in garbage out is really important So you're all here you've trusted that the word camp organizers have vetted me have some sense that I know what I'm talking about that. I'm not gonna stand up here and just sell you stuff all you know for the next half hour You need to have so I don't really want to talk about myself mostly because you don't care There's something I'm really fond of saying is your prospects don't care about you your prospects Don't even care about what you do your prospects care about what you can do for them So until you've given them some sense that you can do something for them. They don't care So you guys honestly you don't care when where I went to college or how many decades of experience my team has collectively or any of that There's no point talking about it. I really would encourage you to think about that and adopt that Perspective your prospects perspective When you're thinking about all the stuff that we're gonna be talking about now that the actual content of the documents and what you're Gonna be focused on in this process that we're that we're talking about so nothing about me Here's what we're gonna cover today. You can see the first couple of bullet points there are Sort of the why we'll dive into the heart of it The meat of the matter there in the middle is the how we'll start talking about all of those all of those different documents and at the end we'll try and wrap it all up together and It will have some time for Q&A. I'm sure so why do we want to do a planning process? Well, because you're gonna save time you're gonna save money as we talk to clients about this Invariably someone says well, you've got a couple of weeks in here for this and you've got a line item for do we really we don't really need to Do that and the truth of the matter is? They're they're overlooking what the value is but for them the value isn't just saving time and saving money It's this always reminds me of the you know the cartoons someone walks in holding You know huge shopping bags and says look at all the money I saved it's like well you spent a whole lot of money to save that so saving time and saving money isn't Necessarily that as big a motivator as you might think for the folks with profit and loss responsibility What they are more interested in is risk and reward We want to be able to get better results really solid planning. It's gonna help you do that Even more than that they want to not have egg on their face, and they want to reduce the risk I mean web development and software development in general has Sometimes fairly well-deserved reputation for things going sideways when you really don't want them to Really good planning is gonna help you work around that or minimize that risk There's never any guarantee as as we all know So what are our goals all three of those bullet points are different ways of saying the same thing We're still focused on better process and better product But when we think about what those things mean buy and sign off and consensus There are sort of three areas where they're gonna help us a good planning process is gonna help us at the front end of the Process if you can get everyone to Contribute you're gonna get a better product in the end no matter what you just can't know everything Whether you're the marketer in charge or you're a coder or you're the client You're just not gonna have the perspective to know everything and I'm already asking you to think about this from the perspective of your Target audience being able to do it from all those stakeholders is really tough So bringing them in it's really gonna help you get better results Skipping the middle for a second if we go to the tail end if you've done that at the beginning then at the tail end There's a much greater likelihood that your product or I keep referring to it as product that your website is gonna be a success Because the folks that you've asked they've got some skin in the game They've contributed they're more likely to think hey, this isn't something that's just being rammed down my throat This is something that I helped contribute to this is answering the questions that I have answering the needs It's something I'm gonna be happy to put out there to my audience Those are two reasons in the middle the process itself if you've got a process in place and you are very Public about that process. It's a lot easier to turn to people and say no You don't get two days before launch to come and say well where's my job board We said we don't like no you did not say that there was a job board. You've had this experience exactly With a job board Right so when someone comes to you I mean this person may be your boss's boss's boss perhaps and then there's a whole political angle to it as well But if you can say look, here's the process. Here's where we invited you to give us that input I'll get back to you with what this new request is going to do to our budget and our Timeline but having the process in place makes it a whole lot easier to to have that conversation Okay, so that's that's the the why let's get into the meat of the matter Which is these five documents that that we want to talk about There's Well, there are two documents that are missing from this list one I'll talk about the other I'm gonna leave out there and we can talk at the end bonus points for anyone who can Guess what that one is when we don't get to it before I dive into strategy statement the one thing that is missing here is Your marketing plan and a lot of times people talk about that as part of the planning process And there really ought to be a marketing plan in place before you're putting together a website that is supposed to be all about marketing But that really isn't part of this process that's got to be in place already and I'll apologize now I should have done this at the beginning. I just I'll keep using marketing as shorthand if there's anyone in the room who's works for a nonprofit or Trade Association or something like that. That's maybe membership based all the you know It's a communications problem, and we just sort of default to to to marketing All right, so our strategy statement What we I don't have an example of this so it's just sort of general graphics up there because it's really just a Written document it might be bullet points. It might be a couple paragraphs But the the goal here is one page you really want to do this in a page Maybe two if your site is really complex And what you want to be talking about is your audience mostly you want to be talking about who they are what their interests are What it is that you can do to attract them and how you plan on moving them through your your funnel essentially getting them from being Visitors who perhaps don't know you at all and just found you in a Google search just someone who's going to pick up the phone and give you a Call again I'm making an assumption that it's probably more complex sale that we're talking about rather than Someone who's going to move through a website and then click a button and purchase that may be the case The I think that That's about all I want to say there I think for now The next thing we'll move on to from the strategy statement is our site map structure organization and navigation we want to take a look at All the pages on the site or at least all the page types You don't have to represent every page on the type with all of these documents there can be a lot To take in so we want to simplify them in any way we can and make it easy for folks to Take a look again. Hopefully on a single page Here is an example of a site map that fairly common Arrangement layout you can do any way you'd like but again, I would stress that you want to keep this as simple as possible and you want to make it As clear as possible what each thing means so if you look under education there, you see on-site programming On-site programs rather is grayed out That's not a page that we decided now not to publish. It's actually not a page at all It's just a sub menu heading the three boxes underneath that are all on-site programs The one at the bottom there for city and workshops is not a An on-site program. So that's just something you want to put it in there Your coders are going to want to know design folks are gonna want to know they don't need to create a page for this You don't need to account for this in your budget. It's just got to be there as a menu item Similarly under publications you can see all those items there have dotted boxes around them Rather than solids for us. That means that's a password protected area. This is a Site that is both a marketing site With general information for any casual visitors who find it or are directed to it And it is also a site for members. So they're allowed to log in there with they have an ID and password But no one else is on the lower left-hand corner, you can see that there's those things are noted There are the only instances of things like that. So There's not a true legend. It actually just says on-site programs is not a page The over on the right-hand side you see the administrative section since we're here talking about WordPress Most of our site maps do look like this where the administrative section is just a note, right? Because the back end of WordPress is the back end of WordPress. You may customize that using all sorts of widgets and plugins and custom post types and things along those lines, but generally you're going to capture a lot of that information in the Functional spec for our purposes and all that is going to be captured in a user guide Presumably that you're going to provide to your your end user when they're when the site has launched We actually try and avoid putting too much in here about the administrative area because it starts raising questions for the client Well, can we customize this can we customize that and Chances are when you're at this point You've already given a rough idea of budget and if they want to fully customize back end Well, that's something that you probably haven't budgeted for and probably something you don't want to you don't want to open up the can of worms about All right The I will certainly make them available. There'll be a URL at the end with some of these The site map there's a template that will provide you as a PowerPoint template Along with the wireframe as well, so I'll make sure that the I don't know if the slides are there yet So don't immediately go there When we get to the end all right, so site maps now on wireframes This is the point in the process that I'd always like to Blindfold my clients if I can because it's really almost impossible to get folks to Distance the ideas that we're talking about from a visual representation of those ideas and you really you do want to do that so The wireframe the purpose of the wireframe is to talk about content talk about the surrounding elements and not to worry about What they look like or even how they lay out? I can't stress it enough wireframes are not and should not be graphic design documents So that means that not only do you want to have that conversation with your client or whoever your your client may be Internal or external, but you also want to make sure they look just this simple I mean you don't have to hand draw them But I mean really no drop shadows no shading no color really just keep it as simple as he possibly can You'll also see that we're trying to portray what was probably going to be a longer page on a single sheet in in a in a PowerPoint presentation because that's typically how these are done even if we we output them as PDS for clients take a look at so there are things that we're just going to take liberties with like that logo in the top left hand corner That's awfully small I really don't think you're probably going to put a website up with a logo that is so small in relation to everything else But if you look at what's there, we've got a header We've got a footer those might stay the same throughout the wireframe deck Which you know if we look back at that site map where there are 20 or 30 pages for this site They're gonna be 20 or 30 pages to the wireframe the main part of the Of the content there is shown with it looks like we've got an intro blurb That's going to be superimposed on a photo and we've got a benefactor spotlight Which whatever that is but that also seems to be looking like a visual element And then we've got three content areas there about membership benefits and and features there of membership To try and drive home this point that Our y-frame does not imply visual This is what that page wound up looking like or it may or may not still look exactly like that But if you look there at the top in that teal band, we've got our Intro blurb, and we've got a graphic next to it is not Superimposed right on top We've got the our benefactors feature just below that With some some text that we did not actually include in the wireframe So there are areas where things get a little flexible or just get added and you don't bother in going back Updating the wireframes, which isn't necessarily best practice And then we've got our three blocks that are translated pretty faithfully from what that wireframe looks like as it happens one more reason to try and keep the Wireframe conversation away from the idea of graphics or even layout is responsive coding right because this is Pulled off of a desktop or laptop version of the screen and obviously it's going to look very different if we're talking about or looking at it on a either a tablet or a Mobile phone where all these elements are going to be stacked. So That's it for the wireframes Let's move on to our functional spec Those three bullets there pretty well capture what the functional spec can do or what the functional spec needs to Talk about which is what these different kinds of folks can do what the coding needs to do for the functional specification? Functional spec is probably the document that is going to be most varied depending on The complexity of your site it could be a page long and just a couple of paragraphs and really rely on You know what is built into WordPress? It can be Pages and pages and pages long, you know for really complex e-commerce sites for sites that have perhaps a membership feature That's much more than just content control But features and you know intermember communications things along those lines the important thing here is that third bullet what the coding does automatically right so Think about for a moment Say a services page on your website if you sell web development services you have a page for that and Let's say that they're on the right side is a sidebar right with related news and at the bottom Maybe we've got some related blog posts. You've got a lot of choices there and how that gets that those areas get populated It can be completely freeform where you've got a block you can just have someone type in whatever html They want coded. I mean style do anything they want Which is really flexible and really wonderful and anyone who's a designer in the room is already cringing because they know Three months after the site is launched It's gonna look like hell right because you give clients too much too much control sort of the middle ground might be that There's a box there that you can go in as as an admin and Pick from any other piece of content on the site and have it loaded or the third option is for it to happen automatically Right you can with tagging and categorization You can just say anything that I publish going forward But there's news either a blog post if I tag it with web development it'll automatically appear in this area So how that happens is Pretty basic to a lot of folks in the room I would imagine if we've got a lot of developers in the room, but what that impact is on Your clients expectations for how the site is going to work how they're going to maintain it going forward And whether you can deliver on time and on budget all that matters and that's why we want to capture it there another Reason that we put a functional specification together is to capture things that really don't work on you know Sort of a standard word pass wordpress back-end page something like this for example, which I wouldn't say it's it would be really hard to code a page like this On a standard wordpress back-end page But it's going to be really hard for anyone who isn't a coder to maintain a page that looks like this even if we don't include Responsive coding in the mix so defining, you know a custom post type Perhaps for something like this defining rules for how order changes all that is going to be a whole lot easier than some going in And trying to figure out well are I know chief marketing officer just quit but her name started with Her last name started with an M and now the new person's last name starts with a B And well, I don't even know how the rules work. So again something that you're going to want to Define in your functional spec is how any page that really can't easily be coded or it can easily be Maintained by someone who isn't a coder. How are you going to handle that? How is that going to get done again? remember we're thinking about Not just budget not just timeline, but also about who's going to use the site going forward because we want the site To be easy to use if it's not easy to use they're not going to make any updates And then the site really doesn't continue to work Okay, our design brief Really really important to note that a design brief is not a brand book the second bullet there Can include a brand book also gets Graphics people kind of crazy, but really it doesn't have to include a brand book I think a lot of people would argue otherwise In part because a brand book Implies I don't know sort of some level of sophistication that folks feel like well if you're a really small business And you don't have a brand book Well, you're not very sophisticated about your brand and that's simply not true There are a lot of small businesses who don't even know what a brand book is or branding guidelines If that's what you'd like to call them who are still many steps above You know Joe the plumber who just went to the local print shop and you know The guy there got some clip art and now you know He's got the the faucet with the drop coming out of it, you know something, you know heart No, I shouldn't say that you know hardly cliched like that, but there's a there's a Lot of middle ground and really what we're we're not worried so much about the broader use that a brand book Kind of implies what we are concerned about is making sure that your designers have the direction that they need And it can look something like this There's a lot of different ways that the design brief is going to look They have the information that they need so that they understand what they need to do. It's about audience It's about strategy and tone It's about anything that you want to put in front of them so that they they get a better sense of what the end Goal is this is not a document that you're going to create and hand over to the designers This is a document. You're probably going to create in coordination with the designers And This is not the only thing that you're going to hand over to your designers, right? They're going to need the strategy statement. They're going to need the sitemap They're going to need the the wireframes and functional spec in order to make this happen. So those are the documents That's the process and I'm sure there'll be a lot of questions before we get to them though Let's talk a little bit about a little bit about the Process as it should work Essentially who drive who's driving is probably all of you, right? That's why you're in the room because you're the folks who have to run this process And the goal here is really to make it clear that there is one person in charge But that everyone has a seat at the table that that the technology should not be driving the process the graphic design Should not be driving the process. It's really got to be your communications goals Whether that's marketing or something else And though you control I say you control the route You control how you're driving along the route the route is something that is negotiable how You work as a team. That's completely negotiable I would certainly encourage you to be as flexible as you can be within whatever constraints you have in terms of time and budget So to summarize what we've been talking about our goal Is to have a better process and better outcomes right garbage in garbage out We want to make sure we're looking at this in the right way But then we want to use tools that minimize the chances that things are going to go off the rails Or that people are going to get distracted or that people aren't all going to be focused on the same end goal And of course we want that end goal to be a site that works not just on launch but going forward We're going to do that by building consensus by getting folks to participate in the beginning getting folks hopefully to take ownership at the end and of course having a little bit of control in the middle by Documenting the process so we make it clear that There's a time for your input and there's a time for you to have wished you had given us input But those two times are not necessarily the same and of course Be a benevolent dictator, you know evaluate and adjust what you're doing not just during the process But really also after the fact right if you have the opportunity to build a 90-day review into the process the budget and the and the sort of break at 90 days We've had a chance to get feedback people are using the site then by all means build that in so that people can see What's working? What's not and you can make adjustments. It's hard to get anything 100% right right from from the beginning Even if you've been doing stuff for 20 years So here's the URL I mentioned earlier if you go to our site and you can get template for the site map and the wireframe I will Add the these slides to this as well as a PDF Although I think if I'm not mistaken all this is available on word camp TV is that Okay, so it'll take a little while but this I promise it'll be up there by Monday morning The the the template is already there and best part and you can just go get it You don't even have to sign up for an email newsletter if you don't want to But I would love it if you did or if you think that there's more value There's certainly more resources along these lines on in our in our resource section So with that I'm happy to take any questions anyone has I'm sorry Oh, so now you care see I got you interested really And he goes my firm founded in 1996 although I have to admit I we were doing That's laptop presentations and set top box technology. We didn't build our first website until 1998 So we weren't there first necessarily but as we do most of our engagements are focused on a website at its heart but We really do a lot We have a lot of content focus We do a lot of this planning work and strategy work with clients to try and help them figure out what they really need And how to achieve it and then we do a lot on on the back end where we do Analytics consulting sometimes SEO, but that's not always a part of it email marketing Are there are there other quit I mean I'm happy to talk about what we do, but yeah Okay, so we work with a range of Firms a lot of New York based, you know service businesses as is the case. We're based here in New York Financial services forma We really although We do forma through agency partners So most of our and and similarly with Financial services, but most of our our businesses are small businesses. Although our our Focuses on websites in the 15 to 25 thousand dollar range and engagements with ancillary services around those No beyond that so you know sort of the classic two-person law firm You know that there's just there's not any value to them in spending that much on on a website Although there's value in the process as we go through there's not I don't think there's it doesn't make sense for them Go ahead. Sorry which software do you use in order to develop the wireframes? You can use any software you like there are Software tools out there. There are you know good old-fashioned flow charting tools that you know have all those different shapes and things that you Want to use quite frankly when we've got a nut You know we've been doing this long enough that we just sort of have a library of shapes and things and social media icons and all That kind of stuff So that's just stuffed into a base PowerPoint presentation that we then just put together that way so but there are That's a great question. There are a lot of tools out there specific to it No, I can't off the top of my head we've been using you know our own sort of in-house tools long enough that I honestly can't Great You No, no and so that that's another very good question it gets back to this idea that the wireframe is does not and should not imply layout or design at all and You know I get there about ten years ago Maybe the answer would have been different because remember back then it was you know and ago dot movie or m dot and ago dot com or Lots of folks had a separate Mobile site none of us do that anymore really because people you can't make the determination that just because someone's on their mobile phone All they want is your direction, you know your your address so they can get directions or something like that They want the full experience So you have to you know, it's just a different way of presenting the same information So you are design documents, which we didn't talk about here at all because that's not part of the planning process. That's production That's going to include all that there's going to be whether you're subscribed to a mobile first design philosophy or your desktop first Depends on you know really should depend on who your audience is but all that should be captured there Well no, I mean if the information architecture is different then yeah, of course you should have wireframes to Represent that but honestly it's been a long time since we've done a site that has had different architecture for for mobile and desktop I'm gonna ask this question myself Do you ever do a purely written text outline very early on or do you go right from right to the wireframes? No line. So that's Another excellent question Which I'll sort of back into the answer, you know It's not uncommon for clients to say well, don't worry about the site map We don't want to pay you to do that work. We can do it and Our answer is okay. That's fine No, we're gonna leave that in politely But we really do want your input, you know, this really will help But we know that what you know about your company and what you think you want to do Combined with our experience and our expertise is going to give us the best possible site map So let's not cut that corner and that part of the process where we're discussing with the client exactly how What they're envisioning and how we can make that work with our expectations for and our knowledge of how you know marketing is going to be best served That is frequently Sometimes it's in a word document a lot of times. It's just emails back and forth and back and forth So there's you know an outline can be really really helpful beforehand Inform what kind of resources or any kind of data Do you use to inform the site map and do you walk the client through some kind of road mapping exercise? That depends on the Complexity the site to some extent, you know, there's some really simple things that Or just sort of trisms, you know if we're talking about a site map and you know site map sort of implies where Let's see if I'm quickly I can get back Up here, right? So you'll notice the last thing on the right is contact and the thing before that is about and like You're gonna have to all hard you really really you have to really advocate strong to get me to tell you It's okay to do something other than that that the convention is contact is gonna be on the right and you know Norman Nielsen group is a really fantastic Usability if it's I think it's an end group comm maybe or maybe that's an at an end group is where they're are on Twitter Yeah, so I mean they do a fantastic job and put all sorts of information out there And and there are other sources as well who can tell you about that kind of thing So we'll cite whatever we need to make the case that we're you know that we think is important And you know what I said earlier about your clients don't care about you etc That's why about is last I mean except for the contact right like yeah I don't care about you until you've made me care about you so that should be last as well And you know it really depends on on the nature of the site but there are a lot of resources out there that I'm not sure that I could point to one and say hey here here's what we use but you know just if you're Engaged and interested in usability and in what works marketing. You know you can I mean I always lose the conversation With the argument about carousels, you know image rotators everyone everyone loves them Norma Nielsen group is not the only one who will tell you that everyone loves them as long as they're thinking about their own website No one loves them when they go to someone else's website. We all ignore them You know I track and says we just we ignore them, but I never win that argument clients always want this So I think I've read that you want to have a site map in the Files that you're uploading for SEO purposes, and I don't really understand like if you're saying it doesn't matter How do you create it like I'm coming from more graphic design things. I probably do an illustrator, you know How is it that it's helping SEO like how is the crawlers reading the content if it's just created in so many different programs? It's It's a great question. It's a completely different kind of site map That's a an XML site map that is basically an outline in in coding terms that two separate things This is just for planning purposes that is something that yeah, this the search engines do need Right right you put it you put tools in place in it so it updates automatically question Question I have two questions. Oh, thanks. I couldn't I didn't know what the microphone went one question is Do you use a management tool like base camp or? Teamwork and the other question is what was the missing document? Ah, okay. That's good excellent The missing does anyone take a guess because that promise is extra No, the missing what did you say a contract a contract That's the very first document. That's excellent How could I have forgotten that it's close? You know Homophonically it's Content the document that we're really died. We don't talk about as part of this process And sometimes we do and probably we always should is content so frequently clients You know like well, it's a CMS isn't that the purpose we can load content in the day before we launch, right? You know so yeah, I think you all know where this is going you end up with a page on the site that has you know 50 pages worth of content and a section of the site that is you know bare and lonely and It's because they didn't really think it through and so you do want content to be part of it But it's hard. It's a for us. It's Very specific of the project where that has to happen and it also depends on whether you are you relaunching a site? Or is it a brand-new site? Is there any content to base the? The new content off of or you know, that's why I don't include it in these documents But it's always part of the conversation that you're having as you're as you're going through all of these Thanks Yeah, you know you pick the tool that you that you like and that you're you're comfortable with base camp is good We have internal and external clients or internally we use different tools and sometimes use with our clients externally base camp asana Trello, and I am blanking on the one that we recently started using internally And it'll come to me. I'm sure but yeah, there are lots of different tools On the site map There isn't really navigation There aren't menus I'll say and then the navigational is all there But so your footer navigation probably isn't gonna be too different than your top-level navigation You might add a couple of things privacy policy terms of use right that's all gonna be there But that's gonna be reflected in your wireframes not in your Oh Next one you have the mic. Yeah, is any part of this? Process specific to WordPress development or is it generic for all types of site? Yeah, it's not it's I mean this will work We're not solely a WordPress shop and we use this across the board even last year for the first time And I don't know how many years we did an actual Windows native application, which is just kind of crazy, but and we use the same process They're trying to make one of those decisions Where they want to remove that contacts all the way at the right for example Do you have any advice on how to? Say no in a nice way No Yeah, so So if it's if it's like You know every it's a normal thing to have your contact, you know all the way the end of your You know, it's well accepted a lot of successful sites do this You know if they're trying to do to remove something that is well accepted just because they feel like it Right, you know, it's gonna hurt them and it's gonna be your fault. So I don't want to do that Well, so there are a couple of things one If I'm guessing lots of people here have heard of or probably read Steve Krug's Fantastic book don't make me think Right. I mean it's great book on usability written in you know very easy to understand terms I would buy them a copy of it. Now, you know, I would certainly you know, I would I would talk about that If it's I mean obviously no one's gonna remove the contact button But if they want to move it you can Whether it's Nielsen Norman or anyone else you do you can just go do a Google search and come up with a great source That says hey, this is why this doesn't work the harder questions are when you know, you have a conversation and gosh It's always the spouse and I hate to use the spouses But so let's just say, you know the executive who is you know, three levels above and hasn't really had any hands-on You know contact with the project at the last minute, you know has to you know sign off and says well My niece just graduated with a degree in graphic design and she says purples the new color like I mean, that's a really hard You know conversation have but you know, we've had it with not to make it some really long story But Verizon very famously Had call-to-action buttons on their site and if you think of Verizon It's red black and gray and well, of course We're gonna make the call-to-action buttons red because that's gonna outperform black or gray and then they did AB testing did multivariate testing and they were wrong that just did that it did not prove out the great buttons were the ones that performed best so You if you're no matter what you're battling you've got to come up with With data to back your your argument or at the very least you need to you really do need to be polite And you know, there's a political angle to you know talking about all right Let's you know, I see what you're trying to do here. Let's talk about ways to accomplish what you want without You know confounding your visitors For If there is I don't know it and I would and I would say probably not I had a really interesting conversation with Scanning the crap to see if she's here another presenter who's presenting tomorrow who Takes a completely different approach to wireframing and she and her team are so adept at using the the visual building tools I forget which one she uses in WordPress that they just start they start building pages they've notes or I shouldn't say this they build a home page and They present that for the client and they can sit there in a meeting and move elements around That's a pretty fascinating approach. I'd never even occurred to me in part because my team doesn't use visual building tools But you know that so are there best practices? I wouldn't say there aren't best approaches There are a lot of different ways to skin the cat Mind map or you know any of those brainstorming tools are really great very early in the process But if you're gathering ideas and you're trying to put that strategy document together But again, it has to be something that you're the all your stakeholders are Are game to use whether you choose to use that in the end? I think you know the conversation needs to be more free flowing the map and asking people to contribute to a mind map or something like that Design brief How specific do you get in the design brief and there? As specific as we can without Feeling like you're hemming in your design team, you know, which hopefully means you really do have your design team involved Right from the start of how that's gonna look so that they have impact with you know, obviously, you know What whoever on the client side or you know final sign off side has input as well, but You know, that's also an up-and-down kind of a thing So that's that's part of the design conversation and Yeah, of course so the design process is gonna feed off of all these documents that we've created right and the designers are gonna Come up with how they envision that and that Is less document driven than process driven what happens next which is Hopefully the designer does not have a direct line to the client Right, that's hopefully the designer goes through the rest of the team to make sure that everyone's needs have been met Does the design does this this execution match what we had envisioned in terms of what we feel we needed to do from it Is it gonna be doable from a technology standpoint? I can't think of too many things anymore that are That are really hard from a technical standpoint, you know design-wise, but it used to be boy stuff was you know Like trying to arrange a menu along a curved You know graphic and you know all of a sudden things were you know It was like well we can do that. We just need twice the budget right so you certainly want to make sure technology has Whoever's ahead of the tech team has a chance to sign off on that and you want to make sure that the design really does work from a Communication standpoint from you know meeting your marketing goals. Did you put in? Space for calls to actions or is there an email newsletter sign up on every page Or you know if that was one of your your goals, you you know it really gets down to that level of gran you know granularity And then once you've all agreed on that then it goes to the client internal extra Well We don't always win those arguments though right I mean it's always client-driven they they have the final yes or no But you want to be able to state your case with enough in for you know enough data behind it that you you know That you're it's not just you saying well my way's better That's not terribly popular But what I thought I took your question to me well How does it how do you get to the point where you what sort of how do you get to the point where you know you're done like it does? Yeah, that's exactly that's exactly right we want that and then the client can decide they don't like it I think I think we're gonna have to wrap up. So okay one last quick question anybody before we Oh So I you mentioned that you do sites for people in the finance industry right I sell insurance, so I built my was to actually collect leads and and um, you know using content marketing and so forth the whole nine yards, so My question that I have my site put together It's generating leads and I got permission I saw permission from all the insurance company or present to actually put their logo on my site And then all of a sudden One of my insurance companies gave me all this compliance. I mean You looking at maybe Two three pages of just power got the power grab What do you do in that instance? I mean it has to be there. It blows the whole design up. Yeah, have any Suggestions does any do it like a new design? I mean what what do you do in that case? So if they're giving you you know page after page after page of content that needs to be on the site Because their logos there. I think that depends on on how important they are Yeah, exactly and what their guidelines are if it can go in the footer You know if you can put an asterisk next to the logo and then in their in their footer In the footer of your page put it there, but if they say no it needs to be you know I forget the word they always use that you know it has to be right there with our logo But I think you have to respectfully decline. You know, it just doesn't make sense Even financial services Yeah, but a lot most of the time that's not gonna meet the needs in our experience so They did you have to see how tough they are Guys, I think we did it. Let's give Andrew a big round of applause. I was I wish we had more time But we have to clear out we have to go party We we did all the word press today, and it was awesome and thanks everyone for coming out. That was that was great Yeah, thank you very much everyone. So, yeah, see you at the