 Thanks, everybody, for joining. We are here today. I'm Michael Waite from Red Hat with another edition of the OpenShift Commons Briefings Operator Hours. And today, we are fortunate enough to have with us Ravish Dewan from Joget. Ravish is the president and CEO of the company. How are you today, Ravish? Hi, Mike. How are you doing? Thanks for coming. I know that we turned this one around in just a couple of weeks, so we're really, really happy to have you here today talking to us. What are you going to be talking to us about? I was just going to talk about Joget as a company, what we are doing and how we are partnering with Red Hat OpenShift. It's a great platform and you have to share some stories. That sounds good. So Joget, how did the company found? Wasn't it in 2009, I think, right? It was just a source-forge project and then you guys productized it. Tell me about that. Yeah, yeah. So we started back in 2009. At the time, there was a lot of buzz around workflow and VPM and automation. And we started as an open source workflow platform. And then as the time passed by, we were developing the open source for workflow. And somewhere around 2014, we pivoted on being the low code platform. We were trying to do a lot of things visually without writing code, if we can. And there came this whole concept of low code platforms in citizen developers and we pivoted on that. So today we are a low code platform. A lot of things can be done visually, building a process, building an application fast. And we are now working as a low code platform. Okay. And you guys are headquartered in Maryland, is that right? That is correct. Columbia, Maryland. But you must have other options. I think I saw some in Malaysia and China. Yeah. What do you guys globally distributed? Yes, we have a global presence now. We have an office in Maryland, Columbia, Malaysia, Kuala Lumpur. We have an office in China. We have an office in Indonesia as well. I mean, we hear it all the time, low code, no code. I've been talking with you at various different events and trade shows for years. You seem to be the main peer leader for this. So let's talk about what it is. What does it do? How do people use it? Let's go. So my low code platform and I would say the acceleration of digital transformation is what is going on right now. And we observe that there are not enough either developers available to do the application development and go through that full process or business does not have enough time to go through sharing all that they want to do with the developers and are in the need of getting these things done much faster than what we have traditionally been doing. And also from an industry trend standpoint, if you look at Gartner's prediction, you know, Gartner recently released their, you know, future predictions next five years. And they are saying by 2024, every large organization will have three to four low code platforms within their company use. Now that's a big statement. The reason is because everyone wants to do things faster. And as you do the knowledge transfer from business to IT and all and to deliver the application, it takes time. And what low code platforms are really enabling is enabling the citizen developer or the business user to be able to build the applications for themselves and, you know, configure them and move fast. And this market is maturing every day and speeding up the application development process. But it's faster always better. I mean, what about, you know, how do you deal with QA release engineering? I mean, just cranking things up faster. Doesn't that cause problems and introduce risk in other places? That's a very good question, Mike. And I'll share this with you. And we do, you know, caution our customers as well that if you try to automate a process, you get an automated process, right? You can go faster. But if you automate a mess, you get an automated mess that becomes difficult to handle as well. So it's not necessary. The past is always good. It has to be done with caution and with governance in place. And the customers, what we have seen is the customers who have implemented that governance in place ahead of time are able to do things much faster with better quality and really good business outcomes. We have customers and we have a really good manufacturing customer in Canada that has implemented Joget with literally no developers, but they've followed the process internally and they're able to do really, you know, interesting apps today, you know, within the organization and much faster. And I should, I know you know this, but I'll remind this for all the people who are watching as well, that we're streaming this live. We're on YouTube. We're on Facebook Live and Twitch Live. If anyone has any questions for Ravish, please post them in the chat and we'll make sure that we work them in as we go forward here. So Joget, it's kind of an interesting name. Red Hat, everyone's like, well, it's a red hat. I don't really know what a Joget is. So how did you guys come up with the name Joget? What does it mean? Tell me about that. So Joget is a Malaysian term and this whole journey started back in Malaysia when we started the open source project. And Joget means in Malaysian terms deaths, the traditional folk dance. And the team was debating what should we name this. And the whole intent was, as we are talking about process automation and creating this whole complex business processes or an automating business processes, it requires a lot of coordination across the enterprise. And the whole idea was to depict that coordination, that multiple teams working together, just like what happens in the dance. You need a lot of coordination with the team members to deliver an experience. And that's exactly what we meant when we named Joget. Coordination across various teams, multiple business units or IT departments to build and deliver complex business application. It's kind of a dance within the organization as well. And that's what the Joget name represents. Okay. And I think you've changed the logo a couple of times, right? Yeah. So I think that's your right. We changed the logo. I think back in 2019, we released a new logo to really align ourselves better from market standpoint. But if you look at the core still remains the same. We wanted to make it a little more bold with what we are doing now. We have not been a company that captures your email and floods you with the marketing stuff, but rather bold in the sense that we are able to deliver really large applications, applications of the scale of ERP now using the local platform. And that's what we wanted to represent in our new logo, if you will. Okay. So what about, what about Ravish Dewan, president and CEO? Where have you been? I'm guessing this probably isn't your first gig. Where'd you come from? What made you decide to become the president of the company? Yeah. So, Michael, we are just going back. I come from India and I started my career as a startup itself back in India. It was those dot com days. And back in, I would say late 90s or mid 90s, I launched a company in CAD-CAM, and then got into this whole dot com stuff and released a city portal back in 1999. And, you know, I got a chance to become a young entrepreneur at that time. And eventually I came to, you know, I left that venture and came to U.S. on a, I work for an Infosys consulting company, large consulting company of India, one of the top ones, and had a chance to get experience here in the United States, working with customers, really understanding what means important to them. And while I was doing this, I was also exploring the open source space. That's where I, you know, found Joget very interesting and had a chance to, you know, work on an advisory basis. I think at my experience, I've been on the other side of the table all the time, consuming the products, spent a lot of time in the industry, you know, working with large companies like not a single shell or nationwide insurance, and then Blue Cross Blue Shield. So I spent a lot of my stint in licensing these products and implementing these products as a customer. And there came a time when I realized that there is a lot of expense that is happening on the customer side that can be optimized. And then there should be a better way to do these things. And, you know, I joined Joget to take you to the next level. I felt that it is in the right marketplace right now and it is the right time to create that, you know, wave in local platform and change how we do application development. And not just change how we do application development, but even from infrastructure standpoint, you know, looking at some of these newer cooler technologies like, you know, AI, machine learning, and then, you know, containers, all this is changing how we were doing application development earlier. And I felt, you know, bringing this all together would be a really good game changer. And it is now in the industry, if you will, if you look at it, you know, going from no infrastructure to a completely, you know, full-fledged application has been super accelerated now. And that's what drives my passion in Joget. Okay. So what about, what about Joget and Red Hat? I've been around a long time. I've known you for years. It seems like you folks are everywhere with us. We're at events together. You folks have a Red Hat certified operator that's in our operator catalog. You have a presence in the Red Hat marketplace. So there's a commercial opportunity there for customers to actually consume Joget from the Red Hat marketplace. How has the Red Hat partnership been working with you? Yeah. That's a good question, Mike. Let me just take a step back and talk about what is happening in the industry that we observe as Joget. And then we'll come back to the question. If you look at the industry, there is a lot going on from cloud migration, and all of a sudden this whole COVID thing has accelerated the digital transformation for our customers. And what is happening is in order to get to the cloud, in order to get to the cloud native applications, customers are looking at how they can move their existing stuff, how they can rewrite their existing stuff and all, and how can they get rid of their legacy application and be more cloud native. So there is this trend going on. The other trend that is going on is everyone is talking about AI. Pick any software they are talking about AI. We are not an AI company. I do want to highlight that. But we do see an opportunity wherein there are plenty of AI engines. I've been talking to a company called Conversion wherein we are exploding the partnership to create the document ingestion. There is another company for credit scoring, another company on the clinical healthcare. So there are various AI engines that are available, and customers, when they consume that engine, they need to create the applications around it. So there is this one, another trend going on. Then there is obviously containers that is completely changing how you develop and deploy applications. If we look at all three ends, we want to do the same for our customers. And I felt that Red Hat Marketplace was an extremely great strategy from hybrid cloud, if you will. I want to do it on-prem today and then I want to take it on the cloud tomorrow or vice versa. This whole Red Hat Marketplace model gives the customer ability to do what they want or what they are willing to do. And also enable them for future. You want to be on on-prem and on-cloud today and then move everything to the cloud tomorrow. You can do that. And I think riding on that wave with Red Hat Marketplace and with Red Hat as a partner would be a great position to be in. We are enabling any of our Red Hat customers or Jogit customers to be able to go to the marketplace. They can directly license Jogit from Red Hat Marketplace itself. And when you do that, that's where the Jogit operator comes into picture. You can quickly create those environments and be in the application development, releasing that business application very quickly. And building the applications very quickly. So I see that as a tremendous power to go from no infrastructure to a business application really fast. Were you folks an early adopter of containers? When containers first really became, well, I guess mainstream version two. Were you folks early adopters of that and said, yes, this is the future of application development. We've got to containerize or did you have to wait for customers to start saying, hey, where's your containers? No, actually we have been the early adopters and I will explain this is where we got an advantage also to move fast. Mike, because we already had the containerized Jogit and as we started the partnership with Red Hat, the first thing was to get the container certified. Guess what, we already have a container. So it just took us two weeks to get through all that process. Just because we were already thinking about what industry trends are going to be and how we can move fast in that space. And when you talk about Jogit and OpenShift, the next thing came was the operator. Can I make it super easy for our customers to click, click, click and they have the environment up and running? Absolutely, that's where the operator was extremely helpful to do that for us. People can use Jogit low code, no code without the operator, right? It just makes it easier for managing a distributed cluster. Yes, yes, you can use it Jogit anywhere you want, I mean on-prem, on-cloud, on OpenShift, off OpenShift. Let's say today you have a Jogit environment and this is something that we are recommending to our customers also. You know, look at the container environment, look at OpenShift also. So you get a huge tremendous advantage when you do that. I'll just share an interesting story. We have a customer, a large customer, rather large customer who was building, had a need to build a very critical application on Jogit or very fast. They embarked on Jogit, they finished the application within four weeks. So very quickly got the business understood their requirements, enabled them, they developed the application in four weeks. Then they were going to deploy in that application in production, not realizing how fast they were moving on application. Their infrastructure took more than one and a half month to get established to really deploy Jogit. So I was sharing our observation with that customer that, you know, you took way less time to develop the business application and you took way more time to develop your infrastructure on which you are going to deploy Jogit. You can accelerate all that and super accelerate all that with, you know, technologies like OpenShift and, you know, Jogit operator and all that. And presumably other platforms as well? Absolutely. Okay. And you're all open source, your Jogit's 100% open source or is there parts that are parts that aren't? Good question. Mike, we have, we are an open source, we have a community addition. Obviously the enterprise addition is what has additional features from security from, you know, enhanced capability to build applications, processes. We have an API builder baked into our enterprise version. So there are a number of capabilities in the enterprise version that are not available in community addition. But yes, community addition is absolutely free open source. You know, we have more than 11,000 community members who are, you know, participating in what we're doing from open source. Yeah, I was going to say, I was going to say, I thought you had something around like almost 12,000 community members. So that's a very, very active community around Jogit. Yes. Yes. So, and we are looking at expanding that as we see the demand for local applications increasing. And in fact, you know, here is another interesting fact that I want to share. A lot of product companies are now looking at, you know, local platforms like Jogit to rebuild their own applications in local platform because there is a pent up demand on customizing their own software for each customer. And that becomes a challenge every time when you're dealing with the product. And being on open, you know, being on a local platform, it makes it very easy for them to make these changes customization and yet not break their back from resources and application development standpoint. And we are seeing a lot of interesting requests that is coming to us as a partner request. We want to sunset our product and rather be on a local platform, so we can move fast with our customers. And that's a very interesting, you know, things that are happening in product space also. So tell me about some of the customer cases that you see out there. Everyone has some spotlight stories to talk about. Can you share with us some of the coolest customer stories that you have? Yeah, sure. So let me talk about not rather a customer, but we actually donated the software just because we felt that, you know, would have been good for the not for profit. We, there is a not for profit called doctors without borders. And they reached out to us want to use your platform and we, the interesting thing was they had no engineer in there, and they wanted to build a lab management software for what they were doing. And they reached out to us, we thought, you know what, it's for a good cause, let's, let's go ahead and do that. And we, you know, extended the last yogurt license at no cost. And to our surprise, they actually developed the whole application without even our help. And I was kind of amazed to see how this is where we feel that when we are building some of these things with the goal in mindset that citizen developers should be able to build the applications and be able to roll that out in production. This is a perfect example of one of a, you know, your customers or users of Joe get had no training, no exposure to, you know, what they just looked at the, you know, knowledge base started building the lab application management. And they recently came back and extended to for others, you know, sites as well. Very interesting to see how they used Joe get and very quickly created that, you know, application for themselves. So this was very interesting. I'm sorry, go ahead. Is there any set out there that Joe get is targeted more than others like, you know, some companies are very vertically aligned. You know, around financial services or telco. I'm guessing, given that you target developers looking to build code faster and better that it's applicable to every developer building in any application anywhere in the world regardless of what type of business they're in. If you're like, we are not focused on a particular vertical, we have customers across all verticals manufacturing, healthcare, banking, education, you know, aerospace, government. So all sorts of customers are there. In fact, another interesting story I want to share is one of our customers is Orange County, California. And they, again, a similar story. They bought Joe get they started working on it. And within three months. They were overloaded with what they were doing from their regular business processes. And within three or four months of application development, you know, on Joe get and releasing their internal processes on automating their processes on Joe get. Like four people team, eight people team to a four people team, very, very short time frame, they were able to do this fast. You know, in a very, very short timeframe, again, without any particular assistance or any particular formal, you know, training, they were they were able to do it on their own. It's a great example to that may gives us satisfaction that we are building software and trying to implement those citizen developer principles, so they can do it fast themselves as well. Okay, and if someone wasn't going to use Joe get. What are the other is it roll your own or are you the only company out there that does what you do or if there are more low code no code platforms how do you differentiate yourself from them. Yeah, so excellent question there are plenty in the market and there are plenty popping up as well. I will not deny that. I would say that we as a principle that we have implemented in Joe get is harnessing or I would say implementing the open source thought process. We did not want Joe get to be restrictive. And when we say open source what it means is there is a very strong plugin architecture that we have built. We have a new piece that you want to roll out we can easily create or even our customers. And this is something that our customers have done a lot as well, create their own plugins in Joe get. So, I'll give you an example let's say you have a very specific way of creating a screen and a widget that you want, and you want to use that as an enterprise across various groups. So instead of creating a reusable code, we have, we extend the Joe get platform, they can extend the Joe get platform themselves and create plugins around it, and that enables them to, you know, take that Joe get capability to the next level within the organization. And that brings in a, you know, interesting way to, to, to extend Joe get, we see that happening all the time, a number of our customers, you know, request the, this feature would be great that feature would be great but when they learn that, oh, you know what, we have the power to extend it and create that feature for ourselves. It gives a very different, you know, outlook to what we are doing, you know, with our local platform. And that's what we are striving for right now. We have released, in fact, with Joe get DX, we have released some major capability like, you know, API building you can, you know, as you're creating business applications, you want to integrate that within your organization as well. No business application is going to sit in a silo and not interact with multiple existing applications in the enterprise. So we have created a, we have released a API, you know, builder within Joe get you can create API around the applications that you've built, or processes that you've built in Joe get. And that's that was in, that was in March of this year wasn't it just before the everything changed. That is good. I think I was reading, reading an article was back on early March, but I got confused there because you know you were talking about, you know, your artificial intelligence and application performance management and I was like well geez I don't think they're an AI vendor I think they probably just enable better AI development is that right. That is correct. And just to give a little insight to that. Let's say example you have developer tensor flow, you know model in your AI. Let's say for image map matching. I'm just giving an example. Right. And in fact there's a blog on open shift. How ready to open shift and Joe get and tensor flow you can utilize to assume you are an AI company and you've created your model in tensor flow. We have a currently we have a plugin in Joe get for tensor flow. We are looking at other engines as well, but we have a plugin in tensor flow you upload your model you configure your inputs and outputs, and you can get an application around it very quickly. That's the goal that we are targeting. We don't want to be a vendor. We are not a vendor. But what we are is give you the base capability and infrastructure to build your app application on the model that you're built in an AI space. Now, there is always a pay integration that you can do with any engine today, but we are trying to see how we can make that into a, you know, out of box capability. And, and that's where the AI things come into picture. You mentioned about the application monitoring. So just putting my, you know, experience hat on. I've built a lot of large systems in various large organizations. And one of the things that really hits you hard always is performance. You user wants everything fast. When you are building these screens are building the application user experience is important and you response time is very, very important. And I face various challenges using a number of large softwares to build these applications. And moment you hit this performance and production becomes a huge blocker, if you will. And keeping that in mind, we built the application performance monitoring piece in within Joget as a capability out of the box. The idea was anyone who wants to build an application Joget, they can get a performance dashboard out of the box without making any specific instrumentation. We create this performance dashboard for you to look at what are your transaction response times if you want to establish alerts, something going slow. So this capability enables our customers to monitor their apps in production. In fact, we have another interesting capability related to performance monitoring, which is the performance analyzer. So when you're building an app, when a non coder or a non developer is building an app or so called citizen developer is building an application, they won't realize drag and drop and put an image here, realizing that image is actually slowing down their application. Right. So, so these performance analyzers, you establish a threshold and you can see how your screen performance is going to be ahead of time. So this gives a really easy way for non coders also to look at what they're building and is it going to be efficient in in production, if you will. So is that not to wrap but there's there's lots of vendors out there that deliver APM application performance management monitoring. I think we all know who they are. Does this mean then that if a customer uses the Joget low code no code platform as a red hat certified operator for OpenShift that they don't need. Other APM vendors? I would not say that might because if their application, those APM vendors go horizontal, you know, the APM functionality that we have is within Joget and Joget applications. And yes, it covers the APIs that you're calling externally or the database that you're calling externally. So in an organization, there might be multiple applications, some in Joget, some, you know, not in Joget or a legacy application, and you want to look at horizontally across applications. You definitely need those APM tools. So there is absolutely, you know, that their need exists, but this is more specific to how a non coder. You cannot expect a non coder citizen developer to go into some of these APM tools and make sense of it's very, very, these are complicated tools, and these are not simple tools to use. But a non coder can take a look at his screen and see, you know, there is this portion of the screen is highlighted, it's going to take, you know, three seconds to render. So that's something that they can easily understand. And our intent with APM is to make them make it easy for them to look at, and they can always configure API and see, oh, this API is slowing me down, that's it. But the detailed, you know, horizontal monitoring, if you will, that's definitely those APM tools can help. Okay, well that covers the APM and the AI questions they had. There was one other piece that came out in the announcement, which was around the progressive web apps in Joget DX. What's that all about? Yes. And why should people care about progressive web apps? Excellent question. Like, if you, again, looking at the industry trends, we are, you know, we don't have any crystal ball, you know, with us, what we are doing is what we are observing from our customers are listening to our customers. Progressive web apps are the new ways of, you know, looking at the web applications, if you will. Progressive web apps is like giving these some of the offline capabilities, your ability for notification. So I don't mean to rely on on native apps. There is a whole debate going on, you know, whether these will native apps live or or things will be more of progressive web apps on your devices on your on your browser so on and so forth. And we felt that that is another essential element from Joget standpoint. So within our product Joget DX, which is on Reddit marketplace as well, any application you create using Joget drag and drop, you are creating a progressive web app for yourself. We have a push notification mechanism that you can enable a little bit of offline functionality that you get out of the box when you are using, you know, Joget. So, so these are some common needs from our customers and a direction that industry is driving towards. So we built that as a capability in our, you know, product. And now, if you are creating a Joget application, it is enabled for mobile, it is enabled for web and it has those PWA capabilities built in as well. So you said, based on the direction that the industry is driving towards, how much do you think things are going to change? I mean, there's been a lot of change in the way apps are built. Certainly, you know, in the 19 years that I've been here at Red Hat, or maybe it's 20 now, but something like that, you know, it was it was Linux and applications built with C. Then there was, you know, middleware layers. And then there was virtualization with VMware and other vendors. And then there was, you know, the disruptive change of OpenStack and OpenStack was the shiny object. And they were, no, no, no, now it's containers, containers of the shiny object and you don't need VMs anymore. Then there's, then there's, you know, Kubernetes and orchestration of container platforms and operators. I'm just going to just keep on going like this and how you folks position to be able to, you know, change with the times. Yeah, so I think one of the things that we, that's an excellent question, Mike, and we get that a lot. You know, I build application on Joget and the technology changes and what, right. You think about we were, we were doing without containers earlier, and now we have thought through for our customers and enable the container for them. Essentially what we are trying to do as a goal from Joget's standpoint is enabling our customer for future proof applications. We don't know today, everyone is talking about the cloud tomorrow, there is a change in direction, you know, deploy somewhere else. So what we are trying to do is, how can I enable the customer to future proof their application if they did not have a PWA capability and they want a PWA capability. They were using Joget yesterday, and they are using today and the update DX, they get those facility, you know, capabilities, you know, from Joget's standpoint. And we want to be ahead, you know, of our customer needs, if you will, to give them or enable them for future application as well. That's what we are now as your to your question about, do you think it will keep changing? Absolutely, it will keep changing, you know, what the need for customer will remain exactly the same. I want to do this fast. I want to do it quickly, and I want to deploy quickly and get the business value out of it. That basic demand will remain every single time. Our means to how we deliver that will keep changing. And it is going to be our, you know, duty to ensure that we are trying to be ahead in that, you know, adoption for our platform so we can enable our customers to do the same. And, and, you know, do that heavy lifting for them. Let's just pretend for a second that that public cloud, multi cloud doesn't become the end all platform or the way that apps are built and apps are consumed. What if everything reverted back to the data center in a couple of years because of, you know, spaced aliens who knows it. Does that take away any of the advantages that Joe get can and the benefits that Joe get can provide to, you know, people building apps if it's just back in the data center. How much of how much of applications moving to the to the cloud is enabling the need for your solutions. Actually, Mike, we are already ready for that. Whether you want to do it on cloud today and move it to one on Prem tomorrow, or you start with on Prem and move it to cloud. We are already ready for that. That's the reason you will find, you know, all sorts of images across various cloud platforms from Joe get already out there. And, you know, our customers are doing they some of the customers start with the trial on our cloud and then they say, you know what we are going to be building a sensitive application and we want them that on Prem, they do that even today. So, I don't think we have to wait for that that those things are happening, depending upon the customer need, whether you want to be on the cloud on Prem in containers on all sorts of various platforms, we want to be able to cater to you as simple as that. And we want to do it now, not in future you the future it will become a demand, rather than a want to do this. And we want to be ahead of that right now. So if you have a joked application today on Prem, you can easily go to the cloud or vice versa. There is no, the fluidity is in both the ways. And this is where I see value for reddit hybrid cloud that that marketplace is enabling. And, you know, just just quickly, one more thing I wanted to mention on the on the reddit marketplace. This is where I it fascinates me and and excites me to partner with reddit also is managing software as assets within any organization. It's a nightmare. It is absolutely nightmare. If you go to any large organization, have you do you know what licenses you have bought, do you know what you have bought, and is there a, you know, even though there are cmdbs and all sorts of solution, very, very difficult to keep track of. I believe, you know, the customers who are aligned with reddit marketplace and start their licensing there, it will be a very structured way of managing their software inventory also. And the more they utilize the, or the more they consolidate the better it's going to be for them. It is not an easy job, and there is a lot of wastage that happens today. The number of organizations don't even know they have these software assets and licenses that they're paying off for. And, you know, that's what happens in every single large organization. I'm just going back to the build it wants to play anywhere that that's that's our story as well with open shift being the layer of abstraction so if you build your app for open shift you get to deploy, you know, this cloud that cloud on premise in a hybrid model without having to having to, you know, rebuild it every time. What do you think is going to win who's going to win so every all these cloud vendors have a Kubernetes strategy who do you think's got it right. Got it right is yet to be answered, if you will. And yes, all the cloud providers have the, the, the, you know, Kubernetes strategy and all. I think from if you look at from my vantage point, and I have been in customers who's for a very long time. My, I think the flexibility will be one that will win the game. If I, if I, if my strategy is going to be driving me towards only one cloud, I see that as a problem. And that's vendor walking in the cloud. So I think the strategy that enables the customer fluidity in what they want to do, and how much they want to be fluid in on on which cloud. I think that's something that is going to be valuable. Other than that, you know, don't have any crystal ball with me. But if I am on on a customer and or a consuming and these will be my decision parameters. What kind of flexibility can I get? How soon can I move these things? If if I need to, you know, from from one cloud to another cloud and also on Prem. And I think these are the, you know, guiding principles for us as a joked also, I want to be able to give the same flexibility to our customers as well. Hence, you know, very strong alignment with open ship that I'm looking at. So if so when people are using your your solution and let's just say that there's some cloud vendors out there that are doing everything they they possibly can to create as much proprietary lock into their platform as possible. And they're and they're building apps using Joe get and they're running on this platform and then at some point they decide we hey we're getting Oracle all over again I you know I can't have this I'm going to I'm going to move to you know that platform and you know a hybrid model with you know part data center there's absolutely no rebuilding of anything as long as your apps as long as the apps were built using your functionality. It's just they can just pick it up and move it and there's no no, you know, I don't even know if recompiling is still a word anymore but. I think all the vendors should think about that quite frankly. Mike and that's something that you know drives me as well from application perspective, if I if we create something that sticks on only one and limits the customers tomorrow is going to be a challenge. And it's a risk also I mean if you if you look at some of the large applications that I build and I get locked on. It's a risk as well, you know from operations perspective, so on and so forth so I think that flexibility is is critical. And, and all this this whole fight is towards cloud is obviously creating the flexibility and all but it all boils down to the bottom line as well. I have, you know, just think about a scenario where I have the application that is fluid. I want to go on cloud a cloud be cloud see the bottom line is going to be the cost also tomorrow. If I am getting that same flexibility across all these clouds then my success is going to be ability to move from one cloud to another cloud that is giving me an efficient or cost efficiency as well. And, you know, that's where it boils down. Today, if I start with one cloud and I build all the strategy around the cloud, and tomorrow I see you know what, they came up with the newer ways of making use cheaper and you know this cloud is better. And I'm stuck there, you know, I'm logged in, just like I'm logging today on one friend. So that's something that I feel is a fundamental element to look at to ensure customers keep that inside. Again, they can start with one cloud but they should think about multi cloud strategy anyways. And that's where the hybrid cloud, you know, comes into picture. Well, I kind of feel like I have been just bombarding you here with my with my question is trying to trying to get as much information out of you how are you folks dealing now with the way things are. So, as I said, I've been with you in San Diego, we've I'm sure we bumped into each other at the coupon conventions in Copenhagen and you know Amsterdam of course as we know, was it didn't actually happen in person. But you know what are you folks planning for going forward and how are you going to be doing driving market visibility for you know, yogurt going forward given that everything is virtual. Yeah, actually, in fact, just a plug in here. Mike, you know, we are actually planning for a deeper conversation with industry analysts regarding, you know, this whole hybrid cloud and you'll get and how, you know, it can work together. But just taking a step back with what has happened with this whole pandemic and COVID and, you know, we observe that customers really require empathy as well. They are in a very, you know, tough position as well. And a lot of our customers reached out to us regarding, they have this whole bring their workforce back and so on and so forth and again just sharing other customer as I mentioned, you know, back in Canada. They wanted to get there was manufacturing customer they wanted to get their employees back, and they be listening to them and help them roll out a very quick application on Joget. And realize that not just them all the customers would want to do that. So we have started releasing a few applications like, you know, temperature scanning application travel advisory, absolutely free go to Joget marketplace download that, you know, and, you know, just go live with those applications. And best part is, you know, you can download and change them based on your needs. You know, there's a customer, you know, employer, employee, a temperature tracking app, if you want to automate that I mean, come in your you can create, you know, all your employees there issues a QR code, anyone coming in stick that QR code on track their temperatures very very quickly to be able to, you know, help our customers that are in need to bring their workforce back, or, you know, their workforce is back they want to implement some processes where they want to track some of these things. We have tried to, you know, create those applications and roll that out absolutely free of cost on our marketplace. So that's something that we are doing from future standpoint I think it is going to be, you know, world has changed as simple as that the new normal is is is absolutely different than what we were in, you know, in earlier, and there's a very big study that was released by Forester. I think it was back in June, May or June, that talks about even though a lot of organizations thought they had their processes automated. They didn't realize there are a number of steps that was still manual in nature, and that amounts to 70% of the organization will still have to further automate what they have done. So that's an interesting number to look at. And when you're talking about the paper processes and all, it becomes absolutely essential now to to automate that and we are seeing the demand right now on our end as well. Customers are just coming back and saying that we were having this paper process I'm going to go online make it completely automated, you know, customers can directly interact with our processes to see the demand. And we are hoping that we will be able to support the demand, cater to that demand. That's a good thing. So, you've been honest on our show we've been talking about who your company is what your low code no code solution works how you have a red hat certified operator or open shift it's available in the marketplace. We haven't done a demo or any any technical, you know, in the weeds let me show you how to edit this config file and while look at the impact on the, you know, the outcome. If someone wants to have that type of workshop, is it do you folks make those available are there are there deep dive technical presentations that you folks put on. So someone who's interested can actually, you know, log on and actually get their hands dirty so to speak. Yes, yes, absolutely. So, we have plenty of resources on on YouTube on our website on, you know, on actually open ship blocks as well. We have plenty of tutorials available. Plenty of we do webinars, we do deeper webinars where in the, how to build the applications. There is a there is a really nice video to look at OpenShift and Joe get you can start with the OpenShift cluster and you want to build an application and boom 15 minutes. We did a webinar back in September, Mike regarding the demo how you can be 15 minutes, how you can go from no infrastructure to a full fledged application that has a business process behind it, so on and so forth. So yeah, we do plenty of webinars, there's plenty of resources available on OpenShift and Joe get on the reddit marketplace as well there are a bunch of tutorials that you've rolled out. So plenty of resources. I wonder if we, I wonder if someone on the Red Hat team on the call here could post the link to that webinar that we did because I, it was on the devops.com site. So hopefully one of the one of the team staffers can go to the on demand site and pull that webinar up and drop it in the link here. I remember that that was pretty good. There's a little bit lower than my pay grade or above my pay grade but I know that the, I know that the technical people on the call found it really interesting and very helpful. But hopefully that that will pop up here shortly in the chat for people. So we're getting close to the end of the hour. What I don't want is for you to be hanging up and you say, gosh, you know I had an entire hour to address much of the world on mainstream media. Why didn't I say X. Yeah, so I wanted to keep this for the last mic. We are actually announcing a tech for humanity program within Joe get the intent of that program is going to be. We see this whole, you know, tight financial environment that COVID has created. We see a need to help a lot of our not for profit organizations. So what we are doing is we are rolling out a tech for humanity program within Joe get that will enable our customers. Anyone who is a Joe get customer will be able to donate a Joe get license to their choice of charity or not for profit that they believe in. And I think that that's our way to look at, you know, this whole word from a very different eyes, however, in we all need to help each other as simple as that. And I believe, and, and the, the other reason is he's not for profits may not have, you know, application developers are to automate their business processes right. So, right, you know, they will be able to do it fast, they will be able to do it easily, plenty of resources available online to learn Joe get you don't need a sophisticated knowledge to get started with Joe get very easy to do very easy to implement. We feel this is our way of giving back to the community. And to the organizations that our customers believe in as well. So, you know, just a quick thing I want to announce today, and that's something that, you know, we will be launching and hopefully our customers will be able to take a benefit out of this program. Well, that sounds pretty cool. Oh, and if people look in chat, you'll notice that one of our team linked the webinar that we did with with with revision Joe get it was at the beginning of September, I think anyways, it, it's going to be on there online on the Dev Ops site. And we encourage you to join it I think it was a very deep dive technical discussion with a lot of a lot of really cool, a lot of really cool features to it. I think we're just about out of time. I want to tell you how happy we are to have you have, you know, been here, you know, you folks are a great partner of ours. You know, every event that we do you're at, you're supporting us with with press activities and having your Red Hat certified operator available for open shift and having you know your your commercial offering in the marketplace I think is really, really great. I'm always happy to invite you to participate with us because you folks just never tell us no I can't because it's always yes I can and that's that's a really, that's a really great thing to have, you know, we're the partner so Ravish Dewan, President and CEO of Jogit. Thank you for joining us here today on the open shift commons briefings are our operator operator hours edition. Thanks so much and we wish the best of luck to you going forward in the rest of the year. Thank you very much. Again, we are pleased to be part of the Red Hat family as well. Thank you so much for all the support from Red Hat. And, and actually, someone just popped a question in the chat. Where can we learn more about Jogit? Again, as a company, you can learn more about the company by going to the company website but where does if someone wants to really, you know, get a trial of Jogit or, you know, kick the tires or, you know, what's the best place to do that? Yeah, easily. If you want to try Jogit, you just go to JogitCloud.com, you can register for a free trial, 14 days, it won't even ask for credit card. And there is, we have a knowledge base dev.jogit.org. Very easy. I mean just search for Jogit knowledge base and you will get all sorts of information around Jogit, how to do what. Go to YouTube, you know, just search for Jogit and you will be able to get a lot of how to videos, how to get started with Jogit, so on and so forth. So plenty of resources online to get started. Well, if there's no other questions or helpful prompts coming in to the chat window, then I think we can, I think we can give you a minute and a half back on your day, which is not something that happens very often. Thank you very much, Mike.