 good afternoon come on in grab a seat if you sit close to the front we will be nicer to you i like when people are close to me um we're starting a few minutes late because we wanted to give people a chance but here we are welcome to all in the dysfunctional family i'm lee i'm David uh ben was supposed to be here with me and the title is this fall actually i think the title is my fault but that's neither here nor there um so yeah today we're going to be talking about just the functioning of a team and how we can kind of work to make that better in all ways and some of what we're going to be relying on is the experience that i had i've had over the last 40 years um working with teams the entire teams uh leading at my time and especially our first experience working together on a team that existed for four years ago three years ago uh bring that time period and the the art we had and taking that team from being quite dysfunctional to a high performing team and some most of our comments are based on that history hi if we're going to do that slide that that slide from um Patrick and tony uh quote um we've been like a lot on five assumptions of a team this book and his worksheet and you're going to hear a lot of parody of his ideas but this idea to us um everyone we're working with open source software anyone can say they're a group of developer anyone can compete against you and goes anyone's plate off and use prices there competitive advantage um and so when you're not going to use prices competitive advantage you need to come up with something exactly valuable to the client demonstrate and that will give you a competitive advantage over people who are always on people on price otherwise business that's an asset and so this is this was also part this is Ben's part of let's make a business work and my part was let's make a team work and we put them together but we recognize competitive advantage is good for both of us it just occurred to me that we actually don't have anything right um okay so today what we're going to go through our introductions David and I'll give you a little bit more about who we are uh there's a disclaimer that we want to have clarified so that you're aware of a couple of things uh and then we're going to discuss the problem that we were facing and the model that was used to kind of overcome it uh and the experience of having done so and what actually happened when we applied that model to that problem uh and if there's time at the end we'll do a really quick kind of example workshop it'll take maybe at most five minutes probably not even that and then hopefully there's lots of time for a Q&A as well um before we begin and do the introductions can you guys all hear both David and myself just fine okay good I wanted to make sure of that so I'm Lee and as David said I'm filling in for Ben who's our one of our director of partner services managing client services there it is uh and so he comes from a really kind of particular business angle as David was indicating I don't as much uh I have a complicated fun background of mostly doing a lot of team building and working with youth and that kind of thing until I finally moved into the digital world I am not a Drupal developer sorry about that uh but what I am is really really dedicated to team building and to finding uh community and sort of ways to incorporate a much more what I like to call open source but in terms of people way of working together and finding those kind of calming grounds um I worked at a summer camp for 100,000 years I'm aging very well uh and that was obviously a big part of it there when you're working with kids who are coming from all over and trying to get them to do stuff that maybe you're putting up a fight about because the banana popsicle wasn't cold enough or whatever uh you do have to get kind of creative and start to find a way to really connect with people in that way so that was kind of important to a lot of my early career development and now at my planet where we work uh I'm the content and community manager so again my job is really kind of reliant on being able to forge those bonds and be able to connect with the Drupal developers and our designers and let them know that I'm on their team and that we're going to work together to be able to create the content that we can use for all kinds of things going forward so it's a big part of my day to day certainly the team aspects of things and I'm David Colburn um kind of a Drupal cycle since I know 2004 so I've joined my planet until four and a half years ago um when I joined my planet I wasn't brought in to work as a Drupal developer uh they liked the Drupal knowledge I had um but what they were looking for was a strong master my kind of sense of conception has been an agile company I'm just wondering how many people we are actually working in an agile method don't we have one sort or another I'm probably definitely going to be one I'm shocked I'm shocked so back then we had strong masters we were very uh a strict for a time period a very strict um strong process place uh we've since evolved from we like evolution um from that and we know what that is my initial role today I work with Ben who's not there not here today and somebody of me have heard ever to do that speak earlier um I've worked back and forth between a few of those guys um on time services and and still the teams have devoted to those still very strong thousand um and until recently I thought I was the oldest person in the company but a hundred years ago yeah yeah um I'm also a witch so there's a lot of elements to me that yeah maybe just number one I promise not to practice witchcraft on you or maybe I will this is just a very short disclaimer but I think like for those of you who are familiar with agile you know that the retrospective is a safe space so well we'll be making use of our experience and much of that experience came through retrospective discussion if I use a name it's not the name of anybody real if I if I use an event I'm not going to get specific enough that anyone could ever point out a specific person um I want to respect that safe space so sometimes I get a little muddy in my examples that's why okay so what was our problem when Ben and I first got together four years ago you know the problem was we had a dysfunctional theme we were not making our commitments we were running uh two weeks since at that time we really switched to one week as we did in part of our our 18th better name but we were in two weeks since when I first joined we started working with Ben and we were not we were not making any spring commitments and you know that's that's a sign of the theme that's not succeeding one of the reasons we weren't making any is we had a kind of impact on it all sorts of bugs that are leaving and we had to go back and fix it before we could move on um and our team retro and I can say we've paid a lot of a lot of retro uh at my planet um and there's a range of retro discussion in the state some retros with teams will have retros and they discuss what I call rearranging information that they actually don't accomplish much in terms of team growth but a lot of talking happens and a lot of points get raised and no action over occurs and no change or improvement in people's relationship ever the years because you're not talking about the actual problems you're talking about well should we have the room for this this is these are sort of examples should this room be bright brightly between tanning and treat them should we all promise not to be sardines for a lot of shipping and saying to just don't really seriously make a difference if you have a well worthy well worthy and well respectful team uh so retrospectives of that theme were leaving and totally so that was our problem team that wasn't delivering much and it was a long-term problem for a large plant trouble in river city trouble in river city um so I'm sure many of you have encountered similar things with teams uh to the symptoms listed up here a lot of what David was pointing out often express themselves in these ways things like inattention to detail which is how you end up with all these technical debt and bugs and all these problems uh inattention during meetings uh people are this is the one that drives me crazy and I do it even I was doing it to ever earlier typing away on their laptops not paying any attention at all just being a complete distracted person which was it you yeah okay it happens regularly uh unfortunately from all the information I've gathered um people not asking for help or having requests for help go get ignored or worst of all laughed at it's that's a symptom a team that can't actively engage with one another and just say hey buddy like I got a question and I need some help with it if you can't do that you've got a real problem on your hands um complete silence during meetings that one's also one that I really I find it very unnerving when someone asks a question and everyone just like as as though nothing happened it's a very very unsettling response no one asking any questions uh frequent defects mounting technical debt I'm sure there are others if you have other examples this is your moment shout it out tell us your story no no other see this is that silent thing so for you you have to like that but all of these things all of these kind of common symptoms common distractions stuff that just you know you felt it since early childhood when the teacher would call in the class and you know the one kid would say something sarcastic and roll their eyes and everyone else was silent like that's a pretty dysfunctional environment that's not a lot of productive stuff that's going on so all of these things are really really common so those who had a role and I probably would work here on the team um I've been affected by new slang he has been practicing though and three of us then myself in Everett again sat down over a period of days and like look at this list of of things that we recognize in our team in ourselves and and we had to have to become self-aware of our own feelings too as the people who had a role that was supposed to generate results in terms of becoming a better team um Everett and I for example may surprise you listening to me right now to hear that Everett and I have no problem talking and we'll do so for a long time back and forth even in the meeting of people um who also should be participating so we've got to stop talking and listen to the silence and let the silence percolate there's a strong need for self-examination by the people to facilitate the team processes and the team needs and the team growth to see where they were fading the team and the growth and the fine ways to help the teams to see and so there's a little bit personal discovery in order to have team discovery I'm not going to read any of these things up I love your readers I think or not or not in any case so really the point is that no team is perfect and and you have that arc of seeing teams approve that you're working on to experience that but there will always be issues in the team and that's why the process of resurrection and self-examination needs to continue and needs to be based on a strong foundation we were seeking that strong foundation and we think we kind of did let you on these words yeah um I think the most important thing about teams is they are made up of people and people are pretty imperfect as a species we don't quite have it figured out we're getting there though can't wait for AI to control membrane um so this was what Patrick Lindsey only sort of introduced in the book that they relied on and I don't know if any of you who've read the book before if you've seen something similar to this uh but these are the five dysfunctions of a team that he sort of identified and laid out and we found them really kind of productive and worthwhile to build off of so the absolute foundational base mark there is the absence of trust uh and that's the thing that means people aren't going to volunteer information it's the thing that means they'll make a snide remark instead of actually expressing how they feel it's the thing that causes them to disengage entirely so the absence of trust on a team is a really big it's why they don't answer questions or ask questions or offer help or they laugh at people asking for help I mean there's kind of everything spirals out from the absence of trust on a team here can you check on trust a bit and trust there's two types of trust I'm not hiding with the first type of trust you know the first type of trust is is my lending Lee Elunion knowing what I'm gonna back he will not be getting this back but I'm honest this type of trust is knowing that when Lee tells me she's not going to get a back that's indeed what's going on so if there's a deeper type of trust in human interaction it's more than just the social trust of yeah I'll show up that level of trust is simple and it's existence isn't an indication that there's a deep the deeper level of trust that we want to have in order to have good human connections in terms of all the other things that he's now going to keep moving on keeping me through so the next layer is the fear of conflict and unless you trust one another you're not going to be willing to challenge someone on what they're up to I don't believe that David's going to respect my opinion or is pulling in the same direction as me or understands my goals there's no way I'm going to say you know I don't agree with you on this because it's easier just not to disagree with something it's easier to just shut it down and then go to my own thing and damn whatever happens lack of commitment is the next one up so again that if you're not willing to challenge someone because you don't trust each other then you're probably not going to be engaged with what they're caring about and they're not engaged with what you care about and neither of you is committed to any of the goals that your team should have in common something important here to recognize too is the commitment issues and consensus right if you have trust and if you can have healthy productive arguments discussions and disagreements you can recognize that we don't all have to agree 100 percent on the course of action but you will trust that the group has made the best decision it can in that time and place and even if you disagree you will commit to that decision you won't remove yourself in the equation go okay I'm not watching you call it that because you trust and you had your chance to be heard and considered respectful so commitment is not the same as consensus welcome to our johnny and judy come lately's we're glad to have you I stole a little bit from David earlier that's kind of all you've missed avoidance of accountability is the next sort of not pillar layer of the pyramid so again it's a lot of passing the buck and then the final one is inattention to results and that one has to do a lot with kind of caring more about yourself and what you're going to be able to say then about how the team is doing on the whole so I'm more concerned about being able to push this channel to put up the world and write my little medium article and let everyone know I'm the super genius that figured it out as opposed to carrying that actually that future code is solving a problem for our projects and we're going to make a big difference for this project and for our team for having done it so it's a lot of ego and a lot of that kind of issues where that layer really starts to stumble and struggle this this is a big one for me I happen to be out of the school of thought that when you're working in teams as we do compensation and reward should be team-based and there should be no individual reward okay fine I'll give you the loony back please so so in inattention results is is found within the site that you're going after the golden apple and everyone else can call it by the wayside motivation systems in our businesses as we organize them still reward individual behavior and individuals mid max in their behavior for the playing game you got to look at that stuff okay another one of these slides David's not going to read maybe I'll read it remember teamwork begins by building trust and the only way to do that is to overcome our need for invulnerability well that's good that is a good one to read I was a walking in my neighborhood a few years ago I was a massive mural painted on a lot and it said honorable to be vulnerable and I thought that is how I want to live the next decade of my life I would like to embrace that mindset so this really speaks to me so this kind of problem yourself yeah back in the pre-100,000 era uh yeah so it's that again it's that trust that core foundational element opening yourself up and being willing to say I don't understand something I'm wrong about this whatever it is that invulnerability is no good for you you need to be vulnerable so that's kind of a big one so this also speaks to that self-awareness of an earlier slide in reference one of the things that Ben and and ever and myself did when we had no coming back discussion with being aware that the great hard things lack of success and dysfunction would lay in our our lives or how we were behaving and what we were expressing in calling the team and we just didn't keep that to ourselves and the next retrospective we said it about the team we exposed our own mistakes that we've been making our own behaviors of preventing the team forward and I'll talk more about this problem about how we did uh implementing this process because this is the part of it and this part the invulnerability part you can't do it once and the people have to begin are the people of leadership rules you have to show your your vulnerability you have to show your weaknesses you have to own them and you can't just do it once immediately can't just stand up here in this group and say you know sometimes i'm quick to make decisions and ignore what other people are saying um i then have to go out and start listening to people and they have to see me doing that we can we know so for us as we we we went out and bought coffees out there's a workbook goes along with Len she always fly discussions of the team we've got the workbook and it's each of the dysfunctions has a chapter and exercises all good stuff like that and we couldn't leave chapter one trust for five weeks six weeks you were stuck there we couldn't get past it we could never get anyone feeling that we moved anywhere part of that was because trust takes a long time to fill particularly when you've already had dysfunction pain if you're working with people this and brought together hey you guys are a team now introduce yourselves you're in a different situation you haven't built an ingrained dysfunctions we had tons of ingrained dysfunctions and um some of this is really really hard there's going to be a lot of pain we have to actually fire a lot of people um they they simply the more we the rest of us we're getting more open and honest and trusting each other the more thought and the more we thought of the more outrageous behavior and finally it wasn't one of then myself or ever who went to our director of technology and said this guy's got a goal was a team member private this guy's just gone he's got a goal can't be on this team anymore and director of input before I could even realize this guy was being sent home that's it um um it was amazing once that happened and the previous four weeks hard work and us going to our own values and our own limitations that the rest of the team began coming in jelly so we have and move into the next level which is conflict and I can remember our first conversation about conflict with one fellow said to another film two very excellent about this one I don't think you're working hard enough many of you have been in retrospectives how often have you heard someone say a developer say another developer I don't think you're working hard enough I don't think you're working straight enough I think you're holding back your team has really got to progress to have that set out loud and not totally cold and you'll just fight and it did what happened to that was really destructive to the dialogue where the two fellows realized that they were working in different time cycles and one guy was actually taking this work home and I don't like that I don't support working at all but that's what he was doing at the time and between them they managed to get past whatever damage if you were in a dysfunctional union say something about that relationship with history going down um they got past that and continued to be productive collaborators on that team that so without the trust you can't have a really really tough conversation both the interpersonal effort that somebody may be making on pain but also about how are we going to technically solve a problem that's in front of us and one of the signs that we had cracked it was the 10 months later we moved from the same client we moved on to different projects we got everything eight weeks into a technical solution for problems and we were following as there were our biggest time and time we were following their suggestion as to what the technical solution would be we were still the other company uh and we didn't push back enough and eight weeks into it it wasn't then or ever before when myself was said one of the developers the one who was called he had work wasn't very correct and he said you know what I had better idea I know how we should be doing this and he made a suggestion one over the rest of the team went to the client who because of the previous 10 months we had so improved and I'm so consistent and so reliable and delivering value to those trusted hots and they said okay we'll pay you guys to experiment with this new idea for two weeks we experimented with it for two weeks came up with a proof of concept inside for two weeks and they said we like this better we can sell this better this gives us better value throw out the previous eight weeks work we're paying for it add eight weeks to the contract and build this thing this way we couldn't have done that with the team we had a year before it was the same group of people so the payback to us and putting effort into the human relationship side of our teams was the ability to pivot on a project innovate on a project and client's trust was deep enough to pay us for eight weeks of work we were just doing that's the the competitive advantage of well functioning teams yeah that's my quotation David likes to see his name in light there's no name here though so we're about it on that does anybody have any questions up to this point how many tons of time oh jeez right more slowly no nothing so far okay well then we're gonna do the sample trust exercise because we have time okay so you got here just in time so the first questions are you willing to use what what look at those thumbs up i love them what will be involved is in self-selecting groups of four to six to eight people whatever you want but but why aren't you large because there's you put to explain three things about yourself to each other okay into three things you're going to explain are pretty simple it's almost like a stand-up right what did i do yesterday what am i going to do today what thoughts are you done so you don't have to go into anything else uh and you don't this is not a psycho analysis you don't have to call us too much about your mother just a little bit just a little bit but in your groups you're going to tell each other where you grew up you're going to tell each other how many kids were in your family and what was the most difficult or important challenge of your childhood and i'm going to give you a pro tip on if you were the one of the people in a leadership role and i was a facilitator of a retrospector so in my responsibility you go first so if someone wants to stated are we going to go first i'm just going to so i grew up in Ottawa and i came to town straight but that actually was the general contractor of the university uh that spiral uh ram was a balsam model i got into a day before it was coming how many kids five six one nine um what was the most difficult important challenge in my childhood getting over inside and fear of social um situations uh i almost failed kindergarten because of the science um and go for it um like yeah uh so that was the and it haunting all the way through until i went off to university through that so it was a huge barrier to my having an enjoyable life and uh yeah that was my most difficult challenge maybe once or twice um so i grew up in the what was the time of budding the problems now and again no it's still budding uh thank you very much for both very busy and very abandoned at the same time these days uh i'm a four kids which explains a lot about me subscribed to the way children pan out and the most difficult important challenge of my childhood was not overcoming Chinese uh but accepting that we thought that would not always be on me which i struggle it's a day um i had a really hard time accepting that things didn't go 100% my way as a kid and it was a hard thing to do you have 300 somethings you've got in that egg and go you're right it came up a lot so um again the idea is that this exercise doesn't immediately mean that anyone trusts them eating enough to take my word that i wouldn't complete a project say but to begin right and the rest of it has to be the behavior during the work week with each other and it just takes five or six weeks and you can turn that that around and doing these exercises these sort of exercises so if you'd like if you could self-select uh in the groups and just separate enough that you can talk to each other um as if we have this all one at a time we'll be here until oh five or six whatever feels comfortable and we'll we'll walk around but it needs to be sure to come on you sort of you it's pretty and willing to get out of their seats and chat you can do it yourself so a bunch of people who are who seem to be strangers or maybe it's kind of like maybe not all strangers um and that's just one I mean that's kind of your pretty step introductory first example exercise and you don't have to start with that one but it's kind of a good one for a new team but there's lots of really wonderful exercises I was actually speaking with Everett uh our colleague yesterday on the train up here and he was saying he really does know that he's trying to introduce Buck up Fridays into our weekly ops meeting because he thinks it's such a great way to establish I mean that doesn't acknowledgement system ultimately it's just a constant theory he's saying this is happening now this is happening now I don't have to adjust accordingly and if every single week everyone comes up into the room and says here's what I did wrong this week I really used to know this bad boy and someone else says the next thing that's what it gets to you you're like I didn't get that hard at all it's better having that kind of culture where you start to establish not only is it okay to fail but everyone does it sometimes and ultimately didn't we also get to Friday and everyone else still exists and it really starts to build up next month and it's a great way to build trust and in your leadership role you can be the first one to start but you can get that all on it's a big difference another great one from the club that they acknowledged what I thought was really great was having people frankly addressed that they're really good at what they're really bad and your teammates can challenge you on that date if you're playing it's really flexible and and I was like I don't know how to do that but I think I should rate it strange but you all have some other things and you want to have a talk with us what before we go to Q&A there's two other points just like the cover after the trust part we we moved into the conflict part and that's the second hardest part what we discovered was once you can craft those two parts with your team and your relationship the other parts are easy because now you can actually speak openly about problems now because you're working here in the day you can ask for help right so how many people here have experienced these themselves or co-workers staying in the day on a single problem okay I'm going to be dead in the business there now you're wasting our time if something troubles you for an hour you can't find a solution ask someone on your team and if there's no one you can even solve an estimate or that you know but staying in the hour about an entire day on a single problem all of us are going to do that all of us have done that and what it does is slow us down solution is really simple being vulnerable enough to say if I can get this I need help and every single one of us have been in a decision where we have to ask for help in each other every single one of us and when you're on a team where everyone recognizes that and respects that in each other you can ask for help to get it problems get solved faster sometimes better so the trust and the conflict part are the mind and the mind states the two things you need to really concentrate on the work of the five and three and eighty six so on we continue to have regular retrospectors one for spring the crimes of St. Elizabeth we're losing your team for an hour every week and we're going you're getting a better team and you know it's part of the deal um sometimes we have to find a program but we get other things to keep track of and fuck with Fridays is one idea but we also with that specific team we pay similar here uh red voter who ever used or experienced a happiness index so happiness is going to be really complicated it'll be really simple it's like estimating and estimating the scandal doesn't matter you're either happy you're not happy but you're very happy you tell me who you are and I don't know who's in your case right and say what very happy he's but all I need to know is you're very happy or you're not happy you ask this question every very specific every week where were you last week I was happy very this week not happy oh let's find out what's going on here right it's just an indicator it doesn't matter if my happy is the same if you're not happy what matters is change in your state so that's the happiness index and we started using that as a very quick way to pick up on changes in our central okay and those changes are important because you left unhappiness and truth and slide you down your team becomes less cohesive less less prepared to get the hard work done so those are some of the things we just started this week with this system let's create a team you work on what can be instructing to an ex-team anyways straight into the air program guys you prepare the coffee drink you can even ask about another air program and then unfortunately business requires a difficult team up in all these people and I've seen people in other teams but for a while they're writing a good message straight into the message and it's really this is the other thing I like to shut up right after this one here when your organization is totally out of the house so it's eating and straight people working in that job that they can't get at that time spreading people who learn good practices around that job and many of those aren't just the process but the importance of a human relationship once in a while so we spread people throughout the organization who have the skills and those experiences they would but they're the ones who won't pull it up for a bad adjunct experience on the team they're the ones who provide that team so uh hard sense is it Johnny at the seat the good seeds yeah okay too aggressive too much think you might have mentioned this but end to end how long the whole process take from starting to finish to really feel like your team was so the team had existed for it was like four or five months wasn't it before you have started to use an applied technique so the team had been brought together in December then I started working together on the team in April in in June or July to recognize what we've been trying to do wasn't working enough there was no decision to change and we started changing so July after the end of September and then and pick up in every way we and we're lucky to use internal team measurements like velocity as a measurement of productivity but they pick up in every way we can see we you can hear a happy team happy team laughs a non-happy team has headphones on that's just one in the theater doesn't always need the teams on a happy team but if you put together with everything else no one laughs they're all wearing headphones um there the number of teams that's in sprint to sprint is more than the number of tickets that were in the sprint any sort of measurement of the channel too are all indications of a team that's not happy kind of team is not doing well and my partner tells me she doesn't she makes ads out it's a little it's the word cultish I mean it's a little too much about happy and then using happiness to be productive but my darkness is what is waste I used to be the prettiest I wasn't always a developer or a site builder or or in the software world because of 19 same station I started working on my first job that well it did exist like that was one but it wasn't a big thing I was in training history for 25 years what was waste to us was if we made a mistake on the on the credit grass paper people find what's placed in the in the digital he that's he that's a waste right you gotta redo it anything and so having a team that collaborates well helps check each other's work reduces the number we say it reduces the number he has it allows him to have a client you know also the major key to quickly tap the defense and if you're finishing your sprints your strength and defense you've got time to be able to sprint you go oh these defense boom you go after it right before you start to have strength there are all sorts of things you gain head of the band you gain when you have a team that functions well and in my mind one of the things to gain a lot of internal topics and one of the ender job a lot of time to work every day many might years money has been retired they hate their jobs if they're still working today they hate their jobs if they're retired they hate their jobs I don't mind though I'm not going to stop working until I hate my job maybe a little bit but still I love my job I love and doing this job and to me that's what's very important from then inside what was what did then all about you stopped wasting time I'm sorry I was being productive and answering the client's needs and satisfying project requirements and getting something out of time and we weren't burning through the budget for no reason and we all bought more projects so I came back time again please can you give me your money that's that big story story oh my friend tells me that he says hey do you want my money and I say yes how did I get the money that's pretty good I just want to touch a little bit more on your question the because I think it's really important to identify with different teams operating this is very dysfunctional and ultimately they require all the members of the team to no longer be on that team and part of that as they discover through this process was he didn't actually want to be there he wasn't doing anything he wanted to be doing this was not his area because in terms of software development he didn't want to be like none of it so he's never going to be happy because it's a little bit hard to do software development I would be very happy uh so we've got to take different stuff for different teams and you'll find a way through that as you start to work on these processes and start to bring them in some teams to sort of you know good retrospectives like those who know what they're doing in this environment and then you're going to start to start off with the functionality right away and other teams you could be out for two months and eventually one or two people have to move on before you start to see the result so it does very much better did you feel like there's any regression like would you have to like carry the momentum out do you have to if you have trouble with this you can sit around the retrospectives and not let them turn into furniture just and it's not that every retrospective has to be deep gazing at your soul but we just it's around also being honest with me we had a group of fellows in our office this past several weeks learning we got excited and so and uh but I had to work with them on the first day doing some introductory games and getting to know you kind of things so they kept coming me with questions all these kind of things I did not think it was easy for them uh but they one of them had this formula for love that he was sharing with the group at one point and it obviously there is no formula for love really the formula looks like every variable has to align with his existence but what is the basic example I can use true for love for friendship for any relationship to be in your coworker space uh if you remember that's a very strange word anyway it's about spending time if you just spend a little bit of time and then you spend a bit more time and then you spend a bit more time you start to just bond kind of innate with people and that's why it is like having the headphones in and being in your little corner all the time it might be easier to do and I was like really concentrated putting that way it's a lot harder to build a connected relationship between us to collaborate on things to build that sense of trust so there is an element of just having those retrospectives and spending that hour hour and a half together once a week means you're spending time with your partner actually just acknowledging each other's existence in a way that kind of has to be doing in order to continue to see the results the book recommends like plot sites once a quarter twice a quarter whatever it is but that idea just has kind of taken that group and letting them be a group for a shot because they're really important to access other questions how do you feel about the little exercise it's just like you're moving the day or of course did you see any potential in your own last question yeah and it's not the kind of thing you can necessarily do because you know David and we're working with on day one so not going to be honest about it it's going to be a bristly thing it's hard to say it's hard to say i'm not it's something it's actually much harder i find to say i'm really excellent at this and being able to pinpoint and articulate how great you are at one thing if that feeling a bit like showboating in a way it's not nice so being able to do both of those like hard probably it's something you can do with a true baby information team but probably through that process it's a really good one um one other exercise we did um you know the first thing was to all take the Myers-Briggs thing and Myers-Briggs lost but let's put that right out there there's a ton of lost in Myers-Briggs but it's the exercise it's important not to resolve your Myers-Briggs thing we did the Myers-Briggs thing and each of us came up with our result and then we talked about it and you know every result was whatever it was and someone in the team said that's you they could have just been following you around for a month and written down how you became and that would be what you are on Myers-Briggs um and that's not you and oh you're on north and so we were expressing to each other what our strengths and weaknesses were so normally did when i was transferred i just went there but the team would tell me what they saw me actually do that and what they saw me so you was that 360 review it and uh me explaining me um tells us that suggest to us that forget top-down reviews those top-down 360 quarter views are useless and i agree uh i don't know i don't have experience so many of them that i can't tell you how terrible they are they're useful but we get to do peers and they shouldn't be quarterly they should be whatever you need it hello and those of things are important to those of things that they move who likes to have i have a question around what i did wrong this week what is you know x y z and then someone has an opinion on how i can do that better than i have i was in awe of just staying strictly getting to an area where your conversation has been hijacked for 25 minutes and you're waiting for friday so how do you keep the lean consistent and valuable so before you get into conversations about what they're wrong you have to get to the first point where the understanding is that any discussion of what they're wrong isn't about someone's personal it's about the team's collective desire to succeed and all we're looking for is the way to all of you succeed that's part of the team so the conversation isn't about all you should have done in a dcb the conversation should be about what do you think you should have done instead it does take and given that i'm not a trained facilitator i believe it doesn't it does take someone willing to be a facilitator it takes someone who that's ever been someone who does some training and is taken in and is willing to when you've got this strong answer to a good role to do this is willing to help nudge conversation back inside a forum to each one so i think it needs to be a facilitator if the team isn't at the point where they have that sort of conversation yeah i think probably for those specific examples i mean lay out right very clearly the whole group in advance all we're doing is stating the thing we're not going to get into the solution right now we just want to hear the things when we kind of have this be a place to hear it and then if that does start up having a point to facilitate or facilitate or a lot of conversations rotating right so facilitators so that it's not ever just one person who takes on the role of like dead mother like me everybody obeying my rules kind of thing and that that person who said i think i did i love good ideas maybe i should talk about it i thought i saw that now i'm great and we'll just now we're going to go on to mark say yeah we are so how do we get back from that from two tiny not public summer workout you figure it out i don't even know because he's like hey i'm the chattelist every once in a while he's like what we've met in the end big grandmothers i think it's the end of those hours from 12 to 2 we can chattel a lot of times we're in and out that's great we're going to be 10 to 12 per sign and 10 to 4 per sign yeah it's having us we're not going to be 10 to 4 hours in 4 hours anything else again i'm still in 10 to 4 hours 45 minutes until you can chattel anyway thank you guys so much so if we have any questions or we're on the further we're going to be in first spot so in the green room