 Hello, Psych2Go viewers. Our guest for today's live stream is Dr. David Calarasi, host of the highly entertaining channel PopPsych, where he discusses and analyzes different reality TV shows, movies and celebrities. Dr. Calarasi is also a licensed psychologist with an MA in marriage and family therapy from the University of Southern California and a PhD in counseling psychology from the University of Denver. Dr. Calarasi also works as a corporate psychologist, consultant and executive coach. Welcome, David. Thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you for having me. That was a very good intro. I appreciate it. Of course. I'm so excited to be here. No, of course, yeah. And I'm such a huge fan of the channel. I think that you're doing amazing work. So thank you. Thank you. And I'm excited to discuss the topic, which is psychology of celebrity worship in the age of social media. The internet and social media has become so ingrained in our daily lives and it's really changed the way we view others, especially celebrities. The internet and social media have made it so much easier to take a glimpse into their lives. And for many people, they feel like they almost know their favorite or not so favorite celebrities on a personal level. So first off, my question for you is, what do you think are some of the psychological reasons why people become so emotionally attached to celebrities, even though they've never met them before? And what do you think is the implication of this? I think it's a good question. So I think there's a lot of implications. From a psychological standpoint, I think it's the perception of vulnerability. So I think that the celebrities that are the stickiest as far as having an audience and people wanting to listen to them and follow them and the people that you really connect to, I think there's the perception that they are being transparent about their lives. And I think that that is, if you think about anybody you have a close relationship with, it's always because at some level, because of vulnerability, either they share a lot about themselves, either you've been through something serious or you have history, all of which sort of at the end of the day is transparency and vulnerability. And with social media, people are able to share what they want about their lives, but they share it in a way that comes across as transparent. And like thinking about the Kardashians or Vanderpump rules or any of those, they're clearly highly produced, but the perception is that you're really getting a unique view into this person's life. And I think that the fact that there's that vulnerability there, that's why it's sticky, that's why people are interested. Does that make sense? Yeah, like they can connect with that, it's relatable, it resonates. Yes, yes. And I think from a psychological standpoint, there's a lot of reasons why we are interested in that. If you think about a much smaller society, if we were a group of 20 people, it's really important that we know everybody that we live with, right? But if you go back years and years and years and we're in a tribe, it's important for us to know within our tribe or our clan who is everybody. And it would be a social skill or a skill for survival to be able to listen to people, be interested in people and learn about them and their intentions. So I think we are like from an evolutionary standpoint built to be gossipy in that way. Yeah. And now it doesn't serve us as well, but now it shows up in Vanderpump rules and we wanna learn everything we can about the different toms. You know what I'm saying? Right? Scandinavol, hashtag. In recent years, due to social media, the concept of celebrity has been redefined. In the past, qualifying as a celebrity usually meant being an actor, an actress, musician, an athlete, or a super famous politician. So it's definitely changed in recent years. However, we're living in an age where social media has made it possible for anyone to be a celebrity or a social media influencer. In many ways, people aren't just obsessed with celebrities anymore, they are obsessed with becoming a celebrity. So looking at it from both sides, in what ways is that something positive and in what ways is it destructive, especially as it pertains to a person's mental health? Yeah, that's a big question. So in the first question, I didn't answer what's the implication of that. And I think it ties into your second question, which is, I think that our obsession with celebrity can be negative in the sense that everything is so artificial. So obviously it's easy to create an unrealistic standard of existence. And I think that that puts a lot of pressure on the viewer, on the audience. I also think that it, I think in this fits with your second question here, when anybody can be a celebrity, when anybody has a microphone, when anybody is listened to, it's not always easy to vet your sort of circle. You've probably heard that you are, whatever the saying is, you are the sum of the five people you hang out with most. And I think in some ways, it's really beneficial if you are a disenfranchised individual and you can go on and you can find people that motivate you, people who inspire you, people that you can be like, and you work towards that, then it's wonderful. But if you pick the wrong person, because you're not really able to vet these five people now that are all virtual, then I think it can derail people's psychological development in a really significant way. So the example I would give would be the Kardashians. They are obviously, they're obviously very entertaining, people want to watch them. But if you look at their individual lives, if I said, would you want to be Khloe Kardashian and everything that she's been through, everything, her sort of psychological wellbeing, right? I think a lot of people would say, I don't want the infidelity, I don't want the divorces, I don't want the body image issues, I don't want the right, I don't want a lot of things, right? But we're listening to that content and I think it can distort how we see ourselves and how we show up. That was a long-winded answer, does that make sense? No, that completely, that makes sense. Like people kind of want the glamour, but they don't really want all the baggage that does come with being famous. Yeah, and I don't know that because people can control what they put on the internet, especially people that have the resources to do so, they can paint a really unfair picture of what's actually happening. Exactly, like it can be manipulated. Yeah. So as I mentioned earlier, fame and celebrity has been redefined by the presence of social media. If someone goes viral, even if it's for something terrible, they can become a celebrity overnight. Lately there's been a trend of giving significant media attention to con artists and controversial figures such as the Tindler Swindler, Anna Delvy, Elizabeth Holmes and so many others. In a sense, due to celebrity worship, do you think that the media tends to unintentionally reward these individuals who commit atrocious acts, such as making Netflix documentaries about them and so on? I mean, for example, Anna Delvy got paid for the recent Netflix documentary that was made about her. So do you think that this almost enables and emboldens them? I would never have thought about it that way until you said that, but yeah. I think the media does a major disservice if you think about school shootings and they've changed a little bit where they're slower to put people's names out there, but still if people don't have a strong sense of self and they're just looking for some amount of attention, they're looking to have some kind of impact on the world, it's easier in many ways to do that if you are provocative, right? You are, I think a good example would be, and I don't mean it in a negative way, but like Jake Paul is the one that I think about who has, I think, harnessed virality in a really empowering and impactful way for him. But what he does is just be super, super, super provocative. I could go out right now and do something very extreme and I'm gonna get media attention. And if I know how to do that in a way that keeps me out of jail, I'm gonna keep getting more and more popular. And so I do think that there's less attention given to people that are making good decisions that are thoughtful, that are nuanced. And so yeah, I think it probably does empower people to sort of pursue fame in any way, right? And I think that that, yeah, I think that's probably a problem. I hadn't really thought about it until you said it. Yeah, like it just, yeah, go ahead. Sorry, did you, I just, sorry to interrupt you. Did you watch, there was a show on Netflix called The Most Hated Man on the Internet. It was in this guy named Hunter. I can't remember what his name was. I did a reaction video to him. It was the Revenge porn guy. I think I've heard of it. I think I've heard of it, yeah. So this guy starts this website called, I forget what the, I don't know what the website is, but he created some website where people could go on there and put nude pictures of their exes on there. And he became exceptionally popular for doing this. And he's absolutely violating the rights of all of these people whose pictures are on the internet. This Netflix documentary comes out, I do a reaction video, and then people start contacting me. Like they got my phone number and reached out and go, he's still doing it. Go on to, they go on to Discord. There's a whole Discord group around it. And there's this audience of people that could watch the documentary that could be, I think it was called Up All Night or something was the website, but could watch this, see this horrific thing happening and they're validating of it and they wanna be a part of it. And it's fringe enough that they're diving into it. And so I think what happens is not only are people emboldened by the attention in general, but because the internet is so big, so vast, you can always find your audience. There's always people that are gonna be supportive of whatever it is that you're doing. And so hunters walking around thinking, I'm still the man. I did a good thing. Look how I'm a hero to all of these people. He doesn't recognize that the segment of the population that supports him is very, very, very small, right? But he's got a full Discord and a Reddit feed and all these things that validate him. Exactly, like the internet has made it so that you could find your community and your niche. And like before that, you couldn't do that, you know, but you could find people who are anonymous, but will like agree with maybe that the depraved things you're doing, but they're anonymous so they can go out there and do what you're doing like a lot of people. You know how it is, yeah, exactly. So I definitely agree with that and that's something I thought about before. And guys, I just wanted to let the Psych2Go viewers know, please ask your questions because we'll be answering them at the end of the live. So thank you. And then, so do you think it has a psychological impact on younger people especially? And do you think it can influence them to try to emulate the actions of negative role models who are seeing others become extremely famous on social media? Like do you think it has an even worse impact on our younger generation? Yeah, I mean, I think YouTube is a, I'm on YouTube and I think it's a problem in that, well, it's good. So like to answer the first question is it is valuable? I like the fact that you can be whatever you wanna be. And I think because you can find your audience, the individual is empowered. I think that's wonderful. I also feel like because YouTubers have gotten so good at capturing the attention of their audience, so good at finding ways to give dopamine hit after dopamine hit, after dopamine hit that the audience sort of thinks that this is the best thing ever, that they struggle to wait and listen and learn. They struggle to find nuance. They just wanna be entertained right now. And I think that that part of it is problem in particular for younger audiences. And then I worry about, not only does it change the way that they listen and learn but I think it also might impact who they wanna be. If I look at Mr. Beast and that's what I wanna be and I think about like I'm gonna do all these big crazy things back to back to back to back. I worried that it sets up unrealistic expectations. Yeah, exactly. And so you think the instant gratification of social media is almost becoming like an addiction for a lot of younger people? Yeah, I mean I think for a lot of reasons. And I was saying like the way the content's being created like certainly if you like I have an eight year old and a five year old, they would far rather watch YouTube videos than something on Netflix. Anything that Netflix is doing is too long. They want a three minute video that's like you know I mean it feels addictive to them. You take it away, they take the iPad from them and they're pissed. Like it really has an impact. You know, I think the opposite argument could be made that this is the direction that the world is going. And I imagine in 10 years and 20 years people that can shift topics of focus really quickly will probably be rewarded for that because things will move at that kind of a pace. Yeah. It's probably, there's probably it's sort of unavoidable. It's our reality and we have to find a way to live within it. But as a parent, I get concerned about my kids on YouTube. Yeah, I mean I see it with my own niece and my nephew like they just always have to be on their iPad. Yeah. So it's true. Yeah. Have you seen, have you heard, sorry to interrupt you. Have you seen if you turn your phone to grayscale? Have you heard about doing this? And it changes, like it is stimulating. It's stimulating to see all the colors. Like even the phone itself is addictive. If you turn, if you can, if you can see, if you turn it to grayscale, you can't, it's way less addictive. Like just the colors itself, draw you in. And exactly colors are used in marketing. Like, you know, McDonald's and then out, they use the color red specifically because they know, I don't know if it makes people hungry or what it does, it catches their attention. But color is like extremely important in like the psychology of marketing. So it is scary because social media does have such a hold on our society now. And maybe it is an addiction and it's, you know, it is scary in that way. And so looking at it from a more psychological standpoint, I came across this interesting research study called the absorption addiction model, which was proposed by researcher, Lynn McCutcheson or McCutcheon, yeah, which theorizes that individuals who tend to obsess over celebrities and absorb information about their personal lives are attempting to compensate for their insecurities or lack of personal identity or lack of meaningful relationships. Do you feel like there's any truth to this model or this research? So I don't know, I've not read it, but my gut reaction would be, no, I don't agree. So the, I would wonder like, how would they possibly, unless they're going there and they're saying what, they'd have to say, what is your favorite TV show? Then they'd have to psychologically profile the characters in that show. Then they'd have to ask the audience, what are your, not just what limitations do you think you have, but what, like from a psychological standpoint, what limitations do we think you have? It seems like a rough research project to be able to actually prove that out. And I think that a lot of times people like media because it agrees with them. I'm not sure that you're always picking people or you're not, I'm not sure you're always following people that point or so the view is that if you like a certain kind of media, it's because, say that again, it's because my limitations are duplicated by that person. No, I guess what the model is saying is that people who become over obsessed with celebrities, like extremely obsessed and invested in their personal lives, it's because somehow they're lacking in their own personal life and they're lacking in their personal relationship. So it's almost like they live vicariously through. Yeah. Okay, so it's not, okay. So they're not saying it's a personality issue. They're saying it's a relationship issue. Yeah. They're living that excitement through. A celebrity, exactly. Okay, I'll say okay. But I would think it's because, here's why I'm pushing back on it is because I think it's any kind of entertainment is escapism, right? If you look at, you could say the same thing probably people that like Monday night football, they must not have a lot going on on Monday night if they're watching Monday night football. So like at some level, you're choosing this entertainment, even though it brings no direct value to your life, even though it's not in your life, you're choosing this because it's more fun than your actual existence. Like I don't know that that's exactly celebrity, but you could say the same thing, if you like, why do you like movies? Why do you like, whatever it is, it's any kind of sport. You know what I'm saying? So I guess I'm, it feels extreme. I understand where they're coming from. Like if I'm obsessed with somebody else, I must not like myself, but I just don't know if there's really data to support that. I'd have to see the study. Exactly. But like, you know, there's this new trend on, well, it's been kind of going on for a few years, but with social media that now you can be a social media impersonator, like girls who will dress up as Ariana Grande and they'll just impersonate her and they become famous off of that. Like they become that impersonator and that their whole identity becomes Ariana Grande or Rihanna or Beyonce, they're impersonating them. So in a way, there's some maybe validity to it, but yeah, I mean, I'm not sure how much, but in some ways. Yeah. I mean, I guess I have a negative reaction to it, but I think it does make, as the more you explain it, the more I would say it makes sense. I would just stop short of or I'd be nervous about sort of profiling people that like, I'm not sure that everybody that likes Ariana Grande necessarily has a deficit in their own social life. That's true. Yeah, I think maybe like people who over obsess, but even then it's hard to like diagnose someone, right? I agree with that. Right, yeah. That's kind of the, maybe why I'm pushing back on it. No, I completely understand. Like it's always more complex than what we see on the surface. Yeah. And so TikTok is probably the biggest social media platform at the moment and the prevalence of influencers is as ubiquitous as ever. So generally speaking, what do you think is the negative impact of society's desire, like generally speaking, society's desire to be famous? And do you think it has anything to do with narcissism? I don't know that it has, I think it can lead to narcissism. So I think, and I've done this, I've talked about this like ad nauseam on my YouTube channel. The term triggered narcissists and gaslight are so overused, it drives me crazy. It just drives me nuts. So there are real narcissists out there. That is a personality disorder. It is a pervasive pattern of behavior. It is a real deal, significant diagnosis that impacts multiple areas of somebody's life. I think what happens oftentimes is we throw the term out and we go, okay, you know, so-and-so is selfish, so then there are narcissists. My ex was selfish, so there are narcissists, right? So I don't know necessarily that everybody that is a narcissist is going to be obsessed with social media. I do think that narcissism, if you are constantly thinking about your brand and your reputation, it's an outlet for selfishness, which I think can feed into narcissism. Does that make sense? So I guess I would, it's such a selfish endeavor, anything that you do on social media. So even in my case, I'm not taking myself out of this. I am sitting there talking to a camera, just me and the camera, I'm putting it on there and then I'm watching people react to me. Like it is a very selfish experience. And, but it's like, again, that's the continuum of, does it lead to narcissism or do narcissists like it? Maybe, but I would tell you that the vast majority of people are not narcissists. They're just gonna be self-interested. Does that make sense? Yeah, that's like the perfect way of putting it. Like just because someone isn't necessarily narcissistic because they like social media and just because you don't use social media doesn't mean you're not a narcissist. I forget what you're saying. And people sometimes try to link the two. And I think that's dangerous. Like just cause someone likes to post selfies or be on social media has nothing to do with narcissistic personality disorder. And I do think it gets thrown out there too often. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Do you think that our generation's obsession with celebrities contributes to people's body image and self-esteem issues, such as like eating disorders and body dysphermia to a certain extent? In a significant way, I think so. I think it's, I think that it had, and I think that there's research showing like, like the, what people are attracted to has shifted over the years as different celebrities have become popular. And then it is really clear you can look at, and you can look in different cultures. There are certainly, you know, cemetery, things like that, that, that everybody finds attractive but there are body types that are differently attractive in different cultures based on what's pumped out through the media. And I really think with Photoshop, I think there's really irresponsible influencers that distort reality for people. And it absolutely, if you are insecure, if you're not well-grounded and you are consuming hours and hours of people on the beach whose bodies have been modified via Photoshop, it's damaging. I think. Of course, yeah. Absolutely it's damaging. I completely agree with that. And do you think that sometimes like, people will follow celebrities that maybe, maybe not, like maybe it stems from a trauma or a mental health issue, such as like, you know, an eating disorder or body dyspheria? I think you can get, I think it can feel, what's the right word? I'll just describe it. I think it can feel, it can feel like things are, you can resonate with somebody that says the bad, or that shows the bad things about you that you feel. If I feel really terrible and then I listen to someone tell me how terrible I am, there's a part of that feels, there's part of that that feels like consistent and coherent and linear, like, yeah, I'm a bad person and you're telling me I'm a bad person and that, this is where I should be. Is it, you know what I mean? It can feel like home a little bit. But that home can be comforting and maybe it's the right word, but that home is a really terrible place. Does that make sense? And so I do think that there is some of that that goes on. I mean, people respond to trauma in such, in so many different ways. Not everybody does that. Some people try to ignore what they feel about themselves and do the opposite, but I think there's definitely a role that it plays. Yeah, definitely. So is this the line where you feel like celebrity worship crosses from harmless to dangerous? Yeah, I think celebrity worship crosses that line, I guess in two ways. I think it crosses the line when you have celebrities that are insincere and when a celebrity lies, I think it's a real about what's going on in their life. If that's what they're selling and how they look, if that's what they're selling, I think it's a real problem. So that I started doing YouTube because of, I don't know if you ever, did you ever follow Dave and Rachel Hollis? Do you know who they are? I'm not. There are a couple of motivational speakers. Rachel Hollis wrote a book, Girl Wash Your Face, became super popular. Then her husband, who was a Disney executive, sort of joined her team and they had a podcast together and they talked about how close they were and we have a wonderful, we have an exceptional relationship. You know, and they're saying they have an exceptional relationship on one week and then the next week they get divorced. And it was a very like sort of like, clearly a departure from reality and people are listening to them thinking, I need to have a marriage like that. I think that when that happens, that worship is irresponsible and causes problems. The same thing if a Kardashian is out there saying, this is what my body looks like when they've had 15 people work on it through surgery, makeup artist and then a Photoshop artist. I think that that causes problems. Exactly, because people think that's reality and that didn't lead that way. Yeah, and it distorts, yeah, if you're, I think it's anything like even violent video games, there's a lot of debate about if it's good or it's bad, but I think it makes a difference if the person playing the game is grounded in reality, if they have a reasonable self-esteem, if they have a healthy environment, then grand theft thought it doesn't have a negative effect. But if the kid playing doesn't know who they are, then that causes it's gonna have a different effect. Exactly, and I think sometimes people underestimate that. They think that, like, no, well, you're your own person. It's not gonna affect you, but it can. People who are more susceptible. Yeah, I think it absolutely can affect you. And then looking at it from the other side, I mean, sometimes, like I was mentioning a lot about how celebrity and fame affects society, but looking at it from the other side, do you think that society's fascination with the self-destruction of celebrities, such as someone like Kanye West, do you think that's, like, where do you think that stems from and where's the danger in that? I think it's stem, so first of all, I thought the way the media handled Kanye West was disgusting. I mean, this is a guy that in my opinion, not even my opinion, just anybody looking at this that knows anything about mental health will look at him and go, he's bipolar. He is in a manic episode. This is a time for us to support him. This is a time for him to get help. This is not a time for TMZ to shove a camera in his face and ask him about different marginalized communities. Like that is not, and TMZ or whoever the guy is with the camera knows exactly what they're doing and they don't care. And so I thought it was just a sort of a disgusting display to be honest with you. And I think that the reason why we do that, the reason why TMZ puts the camera in his face is because people are jealous. People are, it's hard to look at someone who is super successful. We like it when they're getting better and better. We like when someone's growing, but we like it more when they fall because it tells us that we are better than that person. There were a lot of people who felt like Kanye West was superior to them. That felt like they could never be as successful as Kanye West and they didn't like the fact that he, it's like Will Smith. People like the fact that you have this guy that is sort of like the model superstar. He falls and you go, look, you're not any better than me. And there is an empowerment when you can say you're not any better than me. And I think we unfortunately love that. I agree with that. Like society sometimes, some people, not everyone, but there are people who do like they feel happy when they see that and it's funny and it's a spectacle even though it's so much more than that this is someone dealing with a mental health issue and we should care, but some people they find enjoyment out of it. They get enjoyment out of it. I completely agree with that. And do you think it's possible to diagnose celebrities on TV or in the media from afar? If not, what is the implication of it? It's not possible. So I, it's funny because people, because I'm always reacting to popular culture events and people and people always wanna know what's the diagnosis. And I always try to be really careful about giving diagnoses. And when I do, what I usually say is based on what I have seen, like I can, I will talk about narcissism or bipolar or whatever it is from the, from a, I'm trying to educate about what the diagnostic criteria are and maybe what we're seeing, but I try to stop short of saying, I know that this person has this, right? So I can look at Kanye West and I can say, he's bipolar only because Kanye West has come out before and said I'm bipolar, I've been diagnosed as bipolar. I can look at his behavior and go, I mean, I get why it's not a leap to get there, but diagnoses have a very, they're very nuanced between clinicians, they're nuanced. And I think it's, I think that there's value in somebody with my background communicating, hey, here's how I would think about X, Y and Z. I don't know that there's much value in me saying this person's that way, right? So for example on Sister Wives, I started off and I said, I do not think that based on what I have seen, I don't think that Cody Brown is a narcissist and people were like outraged that I hadn't diagnosed him that way. And then I watched the last whole season, I said, okay, so here's what has changed. And based on what I've seen, I would label, I would give, he does meet that diagnostic criteria based on what I've seen, but I am only seeing a highly curated picture of him via TLC or discovery communications, right? So I think we have to be really careful about that as people that are reacting. And it would be, you know, like you're not just gonna give into what the audience is like, okay, yeah, he's a narcissist, right? Like you have an ethical responsibility, you're not just gonna do that, you know? Yes, yes. Because the audience wants you to say he's a narcissist, like, you know, that's not, you can't do that. It is really interesting to me how motivated, at least my audience is, to get definitive labels. People want to bucket, we wanna simplify celebrities. I wanna know that this person is this way and that person is that way. And tell me exactly what that diagnosis is, right? People struggle with nuance. We struggle with, hey, in this situation, she's gonna do well. And right now she's doing well, but over here she's not doing it. People struggle with that. And as someone who's reacting to popular culture, I struggle with how do I communicate the nuance in a way that's digestible? You know, it's an interesting dynamic. Yeah, and I mean, this is kind of a digression, but like Cody Brown, I think that he triggers people so much because they, you know, a lot of people maybe have a Cody Brown in their life and they see that person in Cody and they feel so like triggered. I think that Cody is just very triggering to a lot of people. I think he is too. And he has, it's funny, so I started going back and watching from season one. He has definitely evolved like in a negative way, I think. You know what I mean? I think that the speaking of somebody about just the exposure to the media, I think it has changed how he, I think he was always self-interested, no question. But I think, you know, 12 years of being told you are, you know, the top polygamist in the world or whatever narrative he's got in his mind, I think has created this sort of monster that's, I think in many ways, emotionally abusive to his spouse, to his wives, treats his kids horribly. I mean, he's super triggering from like an individual level as a husband and partner. And as a father, in each of those areas, he's triggering for people. Exactly, like just seeing how he treats, because he has a big family too. So there's lots of, like, everybody relates to somebody, you know what I mean? Right? Yeah. So do you think that our societies of session with reality TV stars like Sister Wives, the Kardashian social media influencers will ever truly fade away or is it a part of our culture that's here to stay? I think it's here to stay. Really? I really think that it's here to stay because people like things that are real. What I think is not here to stay, like I think that Sister Wives, Sister Wives, 90-day fiancee, love is blind, like that style where it's less orchestrated, less produced, I think is here to stay. I think the Kardashians and Vanderpump rules, I imagine that that will fade off. To me, it's much more engaging for people to feel like they're actually getting the truth out of people. And I think those other, those highly produced shows feel less truthful so they're less sticky for an audience member. By the way, that's my opinion. And I think Vanderpump and Kardashians are way more popular than the other shows I mentioned. So I'm not a media expert, but that's my, at least as a viewer, I imagine that's the direction things would go. Yeah, I can kind of see that, even though people kind of see the Kardashians as like the first family of the U.S. I know. Right? Which drives me, it just drives me crazy, by the way. I have tried to react to the Kardashians and Vanderpump rules is so popular right now and they've got a big finale coming up. It's coming up on the 17th. And I was like, okay, I need to watch the entire last season. Yeah. Michelle, I have, I think four times I've tried to watch Vanderpump rules. I cannot, it is so, I cannot get into it. Vapid. It is beyond vapid. And then like I want to look at him and I want to be like, hey, like this Tom Sandoval. Do you know? He's so immature. Like I'm sitting there going like, you're 40. He's like 39 or 40 years. He's my age. Exactly. And acting like that. I just, it's hard for me to get there. But you do know, their ratings were actually really bad up until the scandal of all. Like the show was actually going downhill. Like the ratings were really bad and this propelled it. So they weren't actually that popular the last couple of years, but then this scandal, it was like so huge that their ratings are up now. So, Yeah. I do not understand it. I just, I cannot get it. Yeah. Exactly. So now we're going to move to the audience questions segment. So the first one I have here is from Jennifer. So, Dr. David, do you believe that our media exploits the mental illness of celebrities? 100%. I think in a big way, I think our media exploits anything that it can. And so I think it's really, I think it's really difficult It's just human nature to want to know what's going on with people. And I think that that, I think mental illness fits into that vulnerability bucket. And it fits into that provocative bucket. And the media doesn't care, like Kanye West is a good example. The media doesn't, or Britney Spears, the media doesn't care what's the psychological effect on Kanye or on Britney. Could care less. They just, they just want ratings. And I think, so it leads to a lot of exploitation. Yeah, exactly. I completely agree with you. I mean, are sometimes we don't see it from like, sometimes our society doesn't have as much empathy for the celebrity side of it. Yeah. And I think it's, I mean, I know that society's view is, well, you chose to be a celebrity. So this is your sort of penance for that. But I just think that's a really immature view. People chose to be celebrities in whatever their specific area is. They didn't choose to be sliced and diced by the media. You know? Exactly, exactly. And so Travis is asking, do you think that celebrities like the Kardashians have actually had a positive impact on our society in any way? The Kardashians? I mean, I think, I'm not a major viewer of the Kardashians. I would struggle to see what the positive, you know, I think that there was a period where they were good. I actually, but this is like, they've been on for what is it? 15 years or 20 years? Some crazy number. 15 years. And they were kind of known before that too, because of Robert Kardashian. Yeah. When they first came out, I think, I remember thinking that they were good for body image because they weren't saying you have to be real thin. I think that the ship has sailed on that in a really negative way, where they all look fake to me. And I think fake, especially when you're not communicating that it's fake, is really damaging. Oh, absolutely. I completely agree with that. And then Joel has a question, a really good question. Dr. David, what is the most important thing about social media that you would change? That's a good question. What would I change about it? I would change how the algorithm I mean, in a perfect world, I would change how the algorithm works so that provocative doesn't isn't weighted more than more substantive work. So for example, I have, so I have a Popsike YouTube channel, which is just me reacting to popular culture, which is my favorite channel. I put the most effort into it, but I'm reacting to popular culture. I have another channel that's just called David Kolarosi PhD, and it's a little bit more of a serious channel. I'm talking about like I did a video on the word, the overuse of the word triggered or on impact versus intent. And those like my Popsike videos, a sister wife video will get 50,000 views. And a video on triggered will get 200 views. And it's just because what I'm talking about requires more attention. It's not as provocative. And so it gets no, and so I think it's really hard as a creator to put out content that is substantive when you really just know that I just need to be flamboyant about something. You know, back to the Jake Paul thing, I can be, you know, I can bring a gigantic robot to a boxing match and I'm gonna get a lot more views because of that. I think that, I don't know how you get right. That's how the algorithm works. Of course, what people click on and what they watch, they're gonna feed you more of that, but I wish it wasn't that way. Exactly. That was a long, long answer. Yeah, it's perfect. Yeah, so I work really hard. So if you look at my sister wives' videos, what I try to do is I will talk about whatever the episode is, and then I always try to bring in some more serious discussion from a psychological standpoint that I think is valuable to the audience versus just being gossipy. You know, like I try to, it's a little bit like, you know, hiding your vegetables in the dessert. Like that's kind of how I think about it because the algorithm pumps out that stuff so much more. Exactly. And what I like about your videos too, I was watching one the other day, you like observe something and you like, we'll talk about it. And it's like, I didn't even notice that like Cody's dancing at the wedding. You noticed how like it was very flamboyant kind of, and I didn't even notice that it was kind of narcissistic. I just thought, oh, it's fantastic. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Exactly, right? So like little things like that. Yeah. And I look at my comments, how many, I mean, a lot of people see different things that I don't see either. You know what I mean? Like you said, that show or any show strikes everybody differently. And it is amazing to see how many people notice things like that. Yeah. Watching this episode. And then Evie has a question. What's your take on horror movies and video games played by children since their maturity ratings are way up there? Should that be up to the parents or no? Should just children be able to play video games as they'd like? I would be in the camp of make it, make, give the parents the ability to judge what their kids consume. You know, I would, it feels draconian. I think to all of us and say, you know, the government gets to decide at what age your kid can do what. That said, as a parent, I wouldn't want my kid watching, you know, or playing mature video games at a young age. So I think that the concern is reasonable. I just wouldn't want to disempower the parents. Exactly. Like they should have some like say in it, but some people feel like strongly about that, that you shouldn't like, I don't know. Well, the issue, the issue is that, that there is, you know, like anything in parenting, there's no judge, there's no ability for us to evaluate who's a good or a bad parent. And the, and you know, it's like, you can't disempower the parents that you think aren't doing a good job and empower the ones you think, right? You can't control that. So I think like you have to empower all parents, but some are more thoughtful about what their kids consume than others, you know? Yeah, not completely agree. And then Phillip asks, it's going to be our last question. What is the panel's opinion on how algorithms are negatively or positively shaping Western culture? Is this more of a Western, you know, cultures issue in your opinion with social media and celebrity worship? I have, I do not have a good answer for that. I don't know. I think that I would argue that the algorithm definitely influences how we think in a big way in our culture. I don't know enough about other cultures to weigh in on it, but I guess I will add that, which I think is an interesting from a psychological standpoint, you know, we are, I feel like humans are, I'll use the word, you know, cultish or we want to, not cultish is maybe the wrong word, but we want to be in groups. We want to feel like we are connected to people. And so what that means is that when you interact with somebody, you always, you are going to find a way to verbalize whatever your views are to sort of tell them, Hey, here's the group. You know, I belong in this group or I belong in your group. And what happens is I think on social media is that people want to demonstrate their belonging with a particular group. And so they get more and more extreme. And so when people would normally be pretty similar in their views, if you track the algorithm or what's shared with you on social media, you're getting progressively more and more extreme views. I think just because people want to say, Hey, I'm on this team. And, you know, you have to get more and more extreme to get the attention of the algorithm, to tell the algorithm what group you belong in. And so if you look at just your, if I look at my feed, there's like really extreme views from everybody. No one ever says, Hey, it's a little bit of that and a little bit of this. It's never a somewhere in the middle. It's always this guy's the worst and this guy's the best. You know, it's a, so I think it distorts how we, how we think. This is my question. But do you think social media and YouTube maybe attracts more passionate about people about these issues? Cause I know people who would never hop on a YouTube comment section. Yes. They would never be caught dead doing it like my sister. Yes. Yes. I think so. I think it, I mean, YouTube does, I think Reddit does, which is really, I like people or I admire people. I don't care what it is that are all in on things that participate fully in life. Like I'm attracted to that kind of a person. And so for me, if people like going on to Reddit, Reddit is not the forum that I would ever use to talk about an issue. But if I go on to Reddit, I can read people that are so impassioned about every, it's like anything and they have so much to say. And I think it's a wonderful outlet for people. And if we didn't have YouTube or Reddit or these platforms, I think people just sit with their thoughts and don't share them. And so I, I like that part of it. Yeah, I agree with that. It's like a release. It is, you know, helpful to some degree. Definitely agree with that. And so now just turning to our last segment, the importance of mental health awareness since May is Mental Health Awareness Month. Just some quick questions. How can we eliminate the stigma around mental health? I think there's a lot of things that we could do differently about it. I think, of course, talking about it, I think that's, talking about it in not in a judgmental way, I think is really important. I also think from a celebrity standpoint, I wish that when there's been so many examples I'm thinking of Dave Hollis, I'm thinking of Tony Shea. And there's, there's, I feel like there's, whenever a celebrity dies as a result of suicide or overdose, the media's initial reaction is to not tell you what happened. And then they wait like six months to say, oh, here's what happened. And by that point, the attention is off of it. And I really wish that, I know it's not the family's responsibility. I don't know how you fix it. But I wish that when something happened that was catastrophic I wish that the media was transparent about this is what happened and this could happen. This is a prevalent significant issue and you should take it seriously. And I feel like we allow, celebrity allows us to distort mental illness as it's something that is not that significant or doesn't happen much. Or we sort of push it to the side. So when people feel it, they don't think it's as prevalent as it is, you know what I mean? And we sort of minimize the severity which I think is a problem. Like I wish we would talk about it more. And when there were celebrities that had mental illness I wish they would talk about it in a more transparent way. And I'm, I'm just gonna get in a soapbox. I gotta say one more thing about that. I also really struggle with celebrities that I feel like and I'm not gonna name them but there's several, there's several right now that I think are very vocal about their mental illness. And I feel like they do it in a very self-aggrandizing attention-seeking manner. That's also insincere, which drives me freaking crazy. I just want real. And I think we don't do real. People can see through that. People can see through. I hope, I hope so. Some. But I think your, I think the thing, I think things like that should be just treated more carefully than they are. Exactly, because it is like more complex. And celebrities do have a responsibility to a certain degree. So, and then I guess last question to wrap it up. What is the best self-care advice for someone struggling with mental health issues that you would give? Go to a therapist. And what I would, I would add to it is be a good, be a discerning user of therapy. I think the thing that I, because I used to work as a therapist and I will tell you, and as my, and right now as an executive coach, the same thing. Our job, the mental health professionals job, I would argue 99% of our job is to make the participant, whoever that's going through the treatment feel understood, feel connected, feel like they have a strong relation. Our job is to make this person feel comfortable with us. And if you ever go to therapy and you're in session two or three and you're like, this person doesn't get me. I don't like this person. I don't wanna be here. Get a different therapist. We should use, we should, we should rotate therapists like we rotate restaurants. If you don't like the food, go somewhere else. When you find a therapist or an executive coach or a life coach or whoever that you, that really resonates with you, you're gonna want to go back and talk with that person. And I think that to me is, is, I think people are on, people just go, I'm gonna go to therapy and suffer with this person that I don't really click with. Exactly. And like you're there to get the help you need. And so if it's not like working out, you should immediately like change it like you would change your hairstylist. Like it's for you, it's for you. Yes, it's really all right. And so you're going there and now you're trying to make some guy feel comfortable. You're just, it's not, it's just a misuse of it. And so I wish that we were, that when people struggled, they would go, I need support and I'm gonna meet with three people until I find the person that I really want to talk with. Yeah, exactly. And people shouldn't view mental health as like an inconvenience to have to see a therapist. They should see it as something that self-care and something that they absolutely deserve and have a right to. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Exactly. Well, thank you. Yeah, exactly. And thank you so much for meeting with me. Dr. Caller Rossi, it was an amazing conversation. Thank you for having me. It was great. I really appreciate it. Of course. And thank you to the Psych2Co viewers for tuning in. You guys can see the links in the description. You can check out Dr. Caller Rossi's channel. You won't regret it. It's amazing work, amazing context. So please click onto that. Thank you guys. Have a great day. Thank you. Good talking with you.