 Do you think that this stuff actually happened? Yeah, I mean, I think it happened. I think the question is, is what line did the Astros cross? What was the exact rule you broke? So I know that all 30 teams try to steal signs using hand signals from second base, using things from different. Sorry, my son keeps trying to call me and it comes through my computer. Everything's OK? Oh yeah, all good, all good. Everyone tries to do this, right guys? Everyone tries to get an advantage, get a leg up here. The problem is, is when Major League Baseball came out two years ago, against the Yankees and Red Sox, by the way, for using watches in the dugout and certain types of technology, they drew a line and said, guys, you cannot cross this line. You cannot use certain types of technology and signs stealing and signaling two players on the field. We're going to put a stop to this. If the Astros crossed that line, and they knew that they were crossing that line, there should be serious, serious ramifications and penalties for the Astros. And what are those? Because we've spent three days trying to think, we had Buck Showalter on. He said, whatever penalty you have to affect them in 2020, you have to affect their ability to win games. What would be proper if they actually had a camera in center field and a video monitor in the runway? Well, first of all, I think you have to understand that there's players that will do anything to win and coaches that will do anything to win. And there is executives that knew it was happening, right? If there are any executives or any coaches that are supposed to be the adults in the room, if any of those guys knew that this was happening, they should be suspended for a year even fired. I think that players are not taking this off the players. But when a team source, especially someone that has control over your salary or your arbitration or a free agent contract, when he comes down and says, we need to do this, as a player, you're going to kind of fall in line. So it's a little bit like Sean Payton in Bounty Gate. Sean Payton got hammered for that, suspended for a year, lost a bunch of money. The players that kind of did what they were told didn't get as much of a suspension. So I don't think that players should necessarily be disciplined here. But I think you should be looking at year plus suspensions for any employee or coach that knew this was going on. Would you even think about vacating the title? No, no, not at all. Because I told Buster Ollin this a couple of days ago on his podcast. Every team is trying to do this. Certain teams are actually breaking the rules. Other teams are right on that line. And it's very similar to what people talk about with steroids. Oh, well, so and so got busted for steroids. And you knew he was taking them the year that that team won a World Series, so take away the World Series. That's preposterous, because every team over the last 20 years has had a player that took steroids on their World Series team. Every team over the last 20 years had players that were stealing signs and relaying signs. The issue is, again, the issue is, did they go so far over the line that you have to make a serious case here to take people's jobs away from them, take salaries away, suspend? There could be a huge fine for the Astros as a team. There could be draft picks taken away. And I think those things will happen. I think the real line of demarcation and where it's going to get really interesting, because there are stories out there, Mark, that the masterminds of the system were Alex Cora and Carlos Beltran. Now, Alex Cora was the bench coach at the time. Beltran was a veteran player. He's now the manager of the Mets. Will they come down on those guys? Because, again, he was a player, but I understand what you're saying. You know, if you tell players these are the signs and they want to win, they're probably just going to fall online. But if you were one of the masterminds as a player, what's the right penalty then? Yeah, this is tough. I'm so glad that I'm not working for Major League Baseball right now and trying to figure out how to divvy these fines and suspensions, because it's going to get ugly. The one thing I would say is that I never liked it. I never liked trying to steal signs, trying to, you know, we had coaches that would spend all day long looking at the signs from a catcher and trying to pick up tendencies or trying to pick up, hey, you know, this guy is going to change it. If he changes it, this will be the sign. And I basically told those coaches, you know, thank you, but why don't we just see the ball and hit the ball? Why don't we go back to, you know, playing baseball and worried about getting, you know, hits with runners, scoring position or not getting picked off? Because that's what happens. As you see the numbers with runners in scoring position go straight down the tubes because players are looking out to second base going, oh, well, does he have it? Does he have the signs? Wait, did he say that was an off-speed pitcher? Did he say that was a basketball? And guys are in their heads and then they stink with runners in a scoring position. Same thing happens at second base. Guys are getting picked off because they're not paying attention to the pitcher. They're paying attention to catcher signs and it makes for floppy baseball. So first of all, I never liked it. That being said, I think you have a certain group of players that like Carlos Baltran and Alex Cora that have been doing this their entire lives. And it's part of, it's kind of part of the fun. They love it. They think that it's, hey, man, this is me getting an extra leg up and this is my competitive advantage. So it's been kind of ingrained in their DNA to do this and they don't think there's anything wrong with that. So I think that, again, the question is, is how is technology used? And if Baltran and Cora weren't using any extra technology, there's nothing wrong. If they then took what they learned from those, from studying pitchers and studying catchers and then said, hey, this is how we can relay the signs using technology and trash cans and whatever it might be, that's the problem. So what do you do to the Beltran? He's not even on the Astros anymore. He's the manager of the Metz. It's gonna be very difficult to prove that Carlos Baltran personally was using technology in the wrong way, right? Again, stealing signs in and of itself has been part of baseball forever. The executive or the coach or somebody with a Astros job decided I'm gonna be the one to use the technology, whether it's an earpiece, whether it's an iPad, whether it's a phone, something and relay these signs and this is how we're gonna do it. That's the person that's gonna go down or a group of people that are gonna go down. It's amazing to me, Mark, how paranoid people are about science because I remember the incident in the Subway series. You're at second base. Hansel Robles almost blew a gasket because he thought that, and to me, if you pick up signs on the field, that is gamesmanship, that is not cheating and he was freaking out, you remember it. Yeah, and by the way, for the 100th time I wasn't stealing signs, I wasn't very good at it. I just, I never wanted to give my teammates something that I wasn't 100% sure of and again, as soon as a team thinks you have their signs, they're gonna change it. So I just didn't wanna spend my entire baseball, the entire game, worrying about signs. It's hard to get a hit. It's hard to feel a tough ground ball, turn a double play. That's what I wanted to focus on. So there are some people out there that think that games are won lost by stealing signs. They're not. The reason the Astros won the 2017 World Series is because they were better than everybody. The reason that they got to the World Series this year in 2019, they had the best roster. Now, if next year, the Miami Marlins all of a sudden win a World Series and we hear of sign stealing, then I'll be convinced that, oh man, that stuff really does work. But the fact is, how it wins, that's sign stealing. I get you, but their splits are somewhat stark for some of the players home and away and it's supposed to be doing at home. And last year, they were 16, 21 at home and although they lost the four games in the World Series, so I guess everything is muddled. And as you said, I don't wanna be Rob Manford because he's got a lot on his plate here. Very difficult. And Michael, you do bring up a good point and I can't listen to the numbers, the numbers, the stats or the stats. But I was at every single World Series game, the Astros stunk offensively at home in the World Series. Stunk. It almost looked like they were that team that was searching for the signs and couldn't get them. And so in their head, they didn't have that crutch, they didn't have that thing that they'd been using all year. So whatever happened in the World Series, signs or not, the Astros stunk offensively. So again, this to me is not the Astros got a competitive advantage and this is the reason that they've been so good the last three years. To me, it's you were a good team that had an edge and you took it too far. And that's the issue is that they took it too far. It's almost like Barry Bonds taking PEDs. He was great before it. Why do it? It's very similar. Again, I don't think that any player during the steroid era before things were, before there was testing. There was a lot of players that did steroids that said, hey, there's no testing, no big deal. Until 2017 or 2018, when the Red Sox and Yankees both got cited for using watches in the dugout, most teams were kind of like, hey man, anything goes. Whatever we have to do in getting signs and relaying, we're gonna do it. But once Major League Baseball came in, much like they did during the steroid era, and said, no more. These are the penalties. Anybody that breaks the rules after that point needs to go down. Yeah, and then we'll see. And I think the players have to be disciplined in some way too. I get what you're saying. They're kind of just falling in line. I just wonder will the players' association allow it? And what pressure would you put on the players' association if you were still playing, Mark, to say, hey, listen, there could have been signing bonuses lost. There could have been players cut because I got hammered in Houston and I got sent down because I couldn't get anybody out because they knew what pitches I was gonna throw. Will the players support a suspension to a player that's on the Astros right now? Yeah, that's tough. That's very tough, Don, because very similar to the steroid era in 2004, I, as a young player, as my second year in the big leagues, I got put on the executive committee and said, basically my teammates in Texas said, hey, you're on the union board now. Go ahead, go have fun. And in one of the first meetings, when we were trying to figure out what to do about steroid suspensions, I was one of the guys that raised my hand and said, 10 games, are you kidding me? This is a joke. And I said they need to be suspended for a year and I got laughed out of the room. No, no, no. It's almost like until enough players speak up or enough media speaks up or there's a congressional investigation, the Major League Baseball Players Union is not in the business of disciplining their own guys. That's just the way it is. So the union will step in if players get suspended or get paychecks taken away. I don't think that's gonna happen because I think this goes above the players onto the coaching staff and the front office.