 Welcome back. Yes, we were looking at, I think, Divya brought up a question about measures of change. So, Divya, something that I, now this is a part of practice again, is what I generally do, is right in the beginning of a session with the person or generally on regular sessions also. Something that I do to keep a structure is to ask the councillor about what are their best hopes or best outcomes or best goals for a session and for us going forward in a counselling session is. So, what I'm attempting to do is to help the person think about what would they see as change or transformation in the way that they see their problem or they deal with their problem. Why is that important is the outcome or the destiny becomes very personal to them. Otherwise, it becomes something that me as a counsellor, I'm driving. So, I would, in a problem solving, when it involves the life or certain aspects of an individual, I see it's important for them to also take the agency and responsibility to know, to understand, to think about what do they want to see changed. So, they may give a very broad goal. But through that broad goal is where I'm going to break up goals. Now, these are people who are coming, willing for a change. Now, if we look at Dennis's issue, when we saw Dennis, when we were looking at his story, we saw that he wasn't there out of his own desire or his own will. So, I wouldn't build an outcome until I have got him to a place of working alongside with me, that he is there, that he feels he is there as a result of his need to be there rather than he is being forced to be there. Because if a person is being forced, they don't have, it is contraindicated, they don't have any outcomes that they would want to see. Their only outcome is there and there isn't a problem. I don't know why I'm sitting here. So, you do not have something common to work with. So, in a case like Dennis, I would need to bring him to a place of personalizing the problem, of really even owning that the fact that he has a problem. So, that would be my first stage of intervention with a person like Dennis. But someone who's coming there voluntarily and really wanting to see something different or notice a problem, the one thing that I would do is get them to think about what they want as the outcome. I'll give you an example. Suppose there is a couple who comes and says, we're fighting all the time. All right. Now, the first thing that I would want to do is check first and foremost. Okay. I'm glad that you've come here. I see that there are struggles. But what are your hopes or what is an outcome the two of you are really looking for? You know why? Because it's important for them to have a destiny. It's important for them to see, okay, as a couple, I think we need to have better ways of communicating. So that becomes a measure. Okay. Or one of them will say, we need to know how to resolve conflicts better. Or we need to know how to put boundaries with regard to the, to other people who are there in our lives. So whatever it may be, I want them to come up with a certain measure. I then formulate what is their destiny. Now, that becomes a measure for me, data. Okay. So as we're going, and maybe through the conversation, there may be other things that they bring about. Like, for example, they may say, okay, the very thoughts that we have towards one another in itself seems very erroneous. And maybe that's not something they understood at the first conversation. But as they have conversed, they say, they've begun to realize that the way they see each other in marriage is probably not helpful. And they need to work through that. So that becomes a new measure. So there may be multiple measures that you can look for. And as you, you create new goals, you can check back at the measure of improvement. So I say, okay, the last week, we discussed about such and such, where do you think you are at this, you know, how much better has it become since last week? So they will give you a feedback, they will say, yeah, I think this worked very well. This didn't work well. So that's how you build a measure. The counselor doesn't build a measure because then it becomes your measure. It becomes what you think they need to have. But you're, you're formulating from them in that way, you're rebuilding their own agency to do so. Is that clear, Divya? Sure, ma'am. So, just to clarify, so from from the counselor's part, is there like a, I don't see it checklist, but is there something that for your reference that you keep so that, you know, the next time they come, you can have a point of, you know, from where to start or the, yeah, yeah. So what I do is whatever the outcomes are, I put it down, I write it down and say, this is how they want to formulate that. Okay. And and then I begin to build on those outcomes. I say, okay, Yal said, you'll want to improve communication. So my next question would be what if, if communication, let's say you woke up tomorrow morning and your communication became extremely well, how would, what would, would you realize or what were the steps that would, what evidences would you have to see that it's all that? They'll say, yeah, we may be talking to each other nicely. Or, you know, we may be saying good morning to one another. So they themselves are actually building on a set of things to do quite unconsciously. They may not realize it, but quite unconsciously they're building, yeah, okay, I want to say good morning. Or they're also telling their expectations to each other. I would like, you know, their expectations to each other. I would like maybe to have a tea with the person, talk about how I'm feeling, talk about my day, whatever it may be. So you are building it up for them. And as they are discussing this, you're also bringing in your points, and you wrap it up and you say, okay, by the end of the conversation, what all about communication did you think about was new that you could do? What are some clues you could pick up from our session today that you can do in the next one week? So they'll say, yeah, we'll say good morning or we'll have tea together or whatever, right? And then in my following session, that's what I'll pick up on first. I'll say, okay, how did that go? What was better in the way that you're communicated? So they may say, yeah, we said good morning, we did this, but we didn't do these two, these two, three things. So what I do is I pick on the ones that they've done well, again, be coming back to feedback, right? I'm going to adequately recognize, excellent, you all did this well, how did you do that? What did you feel when you did that? What did you think of it? So then I'm actually creating a better sense of that entire one or two things that they've done really, what do you say, blowing it up so that they begin to say, okay, we've managed to do it. And which means the others can be easily worked out, right? So that's the idea to help them to get them not discouraged that out of the 10 things they only did two and eight they didn't do, but then flip it around the other way and say, out of the two things, this is what you were able to do. And then, you know, blow it up a bit more so that they're able to feel a lot more in present with the with the process. Okay. Sure. Thank you. Thank you, man. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So the next thing we were talking about is being able to confront with care. Now, this is specifically a you would and after these three stages, these are the next part is not in your notes, but I thought it's important to help you all just see what are the stages of change? Okay, just so that you know, you have an understanding, especially when you work with people with addictions, you know, that there can be relapse, or they can slip. And it's important to confront with a caring attitude. To say something like, you know, we've gone through this so many times, yet I don't think, you know, how can you do this? Or, you know, what is what is the issue? Why are you slipping like this? It just doesn't because I personally have heard councillors come in and say that councillors have said this, you know, that you you're not taking your life seriously. I don't think you really care about your health. I don't think you care about your family. I don't think you care about your spirituality. So, you know, yes, that is a way of confrontation, but that can be extremely harsh, and very, very clear on the face. They're already getting it from the outside world. Okay, so our confrontation, especially a councillor's confrontation needs to be very caring, needs to be in a place of understanding, right, that even if they were to slip, or even if they were to not follow through some of these things, how is it that we could we could probably help them? So, you know, even as we're getting that you're saying, Okay, there have been slip ups, rather than condemning or judging, just going back again to a mild exploratory face again, saying, Okay, what what happened? What what went through? What were some of the triggers? What were you feeling? What were your thoughts? What is it that we can do to prevent such a situation once again? So again, here, there isn't any judgment. It's a very neutral conversation, just encouraging them to keep going to keep working out something that's important for them to to walk it. Okay, so so that that's how we take care of take care of that. Yeah, then then this any of the sports hobbies working out, it's basically figuring out other ways of interventions. Okay, what what else could you do to to really work through and get get into an intervention. So this is all of this is it's an up and down. So you there is a new goal. And then you know, you establish certain steps to it, find out how it can be reinforced, then you come back to the feedback, then you start maybe on the next goal, till the point of time, you know, the the counseling feels as if most of the things are covered. And then we decide, we look at termination, who decides on what is what is who decides to terminate. So generally, it's the counseling who has the right to make that decision to terminate. Only if you know, as a counselor, you do sense that your help over multiple times is not being effective, or you kind of feel that you know, you've exhausted your resources or your ability to really help that you can terminate and say that you know, this is probably not working. And so that again, it's an open discussion, where you talk with them and you know, kind of have a review of what has changed, what hasn't changed, what else can be renewed, if there can be other things that could be bought in. And if you feel that you know, it's it's no more something that you can support or help with, then you can also terminate the the the session. But generally, as the counseling gains that self confidence and rewarding experience, they may feel there isn't a need to continue counseling. So, you know, it's important to be ready whenever if they were to express that they didn't want to continue, that's fine. But you're also expressing your readiness in case they need sometimes they need any kind of help in helping the future. Now, sometimes counselors might be hesitant to terminate. Okay, then you would need to evaluate what is that is that has become a sort of dependency on the counseling. That's where you you need to be kind, but you need to be firm, and encourage that you know, that that there is the confidence for them to work things on their own, and they may not really require your support through that. Yeah, they don't require support through that. Okay, now as part of termination, what there are some things that you would probably, you know, kind of focus on to see in this case with Dennis, what you're doing is to establish this termination like for Dennis, it may be, you know, maybe he's going to be dry for one year, he's going to make good, good grades, probably his self esteem has improved, maybe he's joined the rock band, and he's beginning to see that his needs are met in God. So the, so what you're saying is there is, you know, through termination, you're seeing the new, the new behavior that is coming about is, is more automatically coming. It's not a huge trial, but then they've been able to keep themselves consistently free or the measures that you have created have been consistently seen over a period of time. And that's where you would terminate. Okay, so that's about the stages in counseling, those three stages of exploration, where you're getting into the issue, getting into the problem, understanding their emotions, understanding their thought processes, understanding their behavior, getting them to personalize their problem, personalize the problem and their goal, then it moves into understanding where you're setting new goals, where you're helping them transform their beliefs, accepting of their personal feelings towards these things, and also working out behavioral changes. And then you move into action, where you're getting to plan, formulate steps on how those goals are being met. So this is on a whole, what a general process of how counseling takes place. Okay, now, again, remember, it is not, it is not compartmentalized like that. As I said, it can run in and out one into another, you could finish action, you will come back to exploring another, it's very dynamic, it's very unique for every counselor, counseling, depending on how, you know, they process things, maybe for some people, they say, okay, I want 10 things to work at, I want to work on my physical area, I want to work on my thoughts, I want to work on my emotions, I want to work on my behavior, I want to work on my spirituality, they have 10 things to do. There may be some who say, I can do only one thing at a time, let me just focus on this first, and then I will come back to this. So you need to be flexible to work with a counselor, depending on the kind of people they are, the kind of way that they work through it. Okay, so but this is a general, like I said, it's a roadmap, it's a blueprint of how you would generally work with people. Okay, I'm just going to take some time to look at the stages of change. Now, this is basically geared, especially for people who may have long-standing behaviors or behavioral issues, like addictions, long-standing where there is a possibility of relapse that's coming about more frequently. Okay, and this is something that I thought is important for us to just understand. So this was bought about, this form, this theory was bought about by a person by name, James Porchaska, and he had applied this into different health behaviors in the way that one changes, manages behaviors, specifically with regard to diabetes, with regard to addictions, smoking, any kind of repetitive multiple issues that people would go through. This is something that he had bought about and I thought it's important for us to understand this. So he described there are five stages of change. One is the pre-contemplation phase. Okay, that's the first phase, the pre-contemplation phase. Then comes the contemplation phase, then the preparation, the action and the maintenance. Okay, so I'll explain each of this to you and give you a couple more of details on that. I think I'll move it to the next slide. Yeah, okay, so these are the five phases, the next two phases in the slide that comes after. So the pre-contemplation phase on the whole, what do these phases mean? Here they have not yet acknowledged that there is a problem and they don't see that it's a problem that needs to be changed. So it is a stage where there is no intention to change their behavior in the, you know, in the possible future and sometimes many individuals in this stage are unaware or they may be just a little under aware of their problems. Okay, they're not too aware or they may be completely unaware and this is the phase that you call as denial. Okay, and a lot of times you will find people in addictions in this phase, in that pre-contemplation phase where they've been bought to you because of somebody else. Right, and this you will see in many areas like maybe in gadget addictions or in any kind of substance addictions, in pornography. All of this, they may come to a place where they don't have an intention to change their behavior and they're unaware but it could be that there are others in the environment are beginning to see significant issues and distress that's happening within them. So that's how they come to you, you know, a stage like this is when they come to you. Now in this pre-contemplation stage, they're not seriously thinking about changing and they're not even interested in any kind of help. So they often what would you see people in the stage do, they defend their behavior or their habit and do not see this as a problem. So they are very defensive in the face of another person's efforts to help them to get help or to help them to quit. So they do not focus on quitting and they tend not to discuss this with others and you would have seen multiple people like this, you know, you're talking to them about a certain issue and they don't want to talk about it. So we like to think of this stage where people just do not yet see themselves as having a problem. So what you're doing is to, you're being aware of this stage that they are in and what is the goal here? The goal here is to get them to consider that they have a problem. Now that doesn't happen by, you know, what do you say, by you showing them that they have a problem. So what are some of the techniques that you use is that you're validating that there is a lack of readiness. So you're saying, yeah I can, I do see that you don't, you feel there isn't a need. I'm able to see that and then acknowledging that, okay? And you're also, what are you doing there is also you're clarifying that the decision is theirs, you know, you're saying finally it is up to you, you know, how you want to take this forward. However, you're explaining and the risk, you're encouraging them to explore themselves or re-evaluate their behavior, their current behavior. So that's the stage that you are inviting them to do, right? Again, this is not out of condemnation, not out of judgment, but you're clarifying that whatever is the decision, it's theirs and you respect them for the decision they take. However, you have called them here to help them encourage to evaluate their behavior, their current, whatever the issue may be, okay? And you're encouraging them to explore themselves and help them to evaluate the risk that they may be going through. So having that conversation with them in itself is an attempt that you're making as they go through the stage, okay? Now, the next phase is the contemplation phase. In the contemplation phase, what are we really dealing with is, yeah, what we're dealing with it is that stage where they become aware that a problem is there or a problem exists and are beginning to seriously think about overcoming it but they still have not made a commitment to make that action. They know it's a problem, okay? I see that it's causing a lot of issues around my work, my family, my emotions, my thoughts, my spiritual self, everything. They're able to see that, okay? Now, usually people in this stage are described as ambivalent, okay? They're not here, neither are they there, all right? And like for example, someone with diabetes, right? They say, okay, I have to improve my blood sugar but nevertheless I'm not yet ready to give up sweets, right? Or I know that alcohol is not good for me but nevertheless I really enjoy the fact that I can take that, right? So they are ambivalent about the change. That is, they're sitting on the fence and they're not considering change for some point of time. So you can, so when people are in this contemplative stage, usually they take sometime, maybe a month or so before they can consider change. They will say, okay, by next March first I will change or March whatever, I will do something else. So what are the techniques that, again, we need to need to use? Similarly, like this in the first phase, you validate their lack of readiness, that the fact that you know that they are not in a place to go ahead or to do to do something, you validate that. Again, you're also encouraging or helping them see that the decision is theirs. You're giving them the clarity that their decision is there. Here, you're probably going through a little bit more and you're encouraging them to evaluate the pros and the cons of that behavioral change. What would be better if you, you know, if there were some changes made? What would happen if the problems, if you don't come to that change? And you're highlighting, you're identifying, you're promoting those new outcome expectations, okay? Like imagine you said that, you know, if you didn't drink, you would probably be much more motivated to go to work, right? Or if you didn't, you know, if you were, if you felt that if you were to able to take up certain responsibilities, it would create a sense of achievement for you, right? So you're actually raising that awareness of the problem and you're helping them think and feel about the problem and how changing will work for them, will bring about something better in their life. So in this stage, what you're doing, now this stage could take a couple of weeks, okay, to or maybe even longer to get through this phase because they often they, many, many people are just in the place of thinking, I should do something, I should do something, I should do something. It's like, you know, a lot of us when we want to change, want to have a weight change, you know, want to work on our weight, it's okay, I know I have to do it, I know I have to do it, I know I have to do it. But here, it's a good thing, it's much better than the earlier stage because they are more open to receiving information about their problem, okay? And they're likely to use some, some, you know, educational intervention to reflect on how they are feeling and how they should work through that phase, okay? The next phase is the preparation or the determination phase, preparation or the determination phase. Now in this stage, people have made a commitment to change, okay? They, they have, they have, they want to make that attempt towards behavioral, behavioral change. So if you, if you look at that, if you look at the, the, the table, it says they, they begin to have a plan. This is when they actually start formulating a plan on, on, on, on picking this up further, on, on getting to move into the next step. So their motivation is for, for changing is sometimes, you know, reflected through statements like, you know, I've got to do something about this. I know this is serious. Something has to change. I, I need to figure out what needs to do. So here they are taking smaller steps towards stopping a certain behavior. They may be trying to gather information here sometimes by reading things about what they need to do to change their behavior or, you know, this is a place they may call different places or clinics, try out new things, try out finding new strategies that are available. So they do a lot of things in their power or in their ability to do that. Okay. And, and then they, they, they begin to figure this out. Now, what happens is there are times that people miss the stage, right? They move from the contemplation stage into the next stage, which is the action of the Wilpa stage. And they generally fail really badly because they haven't adequately planned or researched or accepted what is going on. And so a relapse happens. Like for example, very, very common example and among Weight Watchers, you begin to say, okay, I should, I should lose weight. I should lose weight. And the next day without a good sense of planning or without a good sense of knowledge of how you're going to do it, what you're going to work through it. So if you're from tomorrow onwards, I'm going to stop eating sweets or I'm going to stop whatever. I'm going to stop one meal. It may happen for one or two days and then they will fall flat on their faces, right? So that's, that's what can happen when people don't come into a place of a preparation or a determination that is getting ready for that change being, you know, forming ways of getting ready into, into moving into that stage. So here, they, how do you help? You assist in problem solving. That is, you work alongside with them and that's why the, the phase, the last phase, the action phase, when we spoke about the other one, breaking it down into steps is extremely important because there are many steps and many goals. Because when you're, when, when a councillor is helped to prepare for a change or prepare to, to bring about a change in their situation, they need to know that there are small steps that need to be taken in order to have that big step movement, okay? So encourage small initial steps and help them to, help them to look also at the skills that they have in order to deal with these steps. Like maybe let's say if it's a person who is drinking, what you, what you're helping them do is, okay, let's plan for the next one week what do we, what are the things that we need to do. So then it's also an education building, you're preparing them saying, okay, right now in your system there is, there is alcohol because maybe till that day he's consuming large amounts of alcohol to suddenly quit on the next day. It can be a toll on his physical body. All of that could be, could be an issue and this of course it's the power of the Holy Spirit that goes over them and then they're completely free, right? We're looking at people who need, who are having these, this gradual sanctification, right? Over a process of time. So there you may need to break down some of this and find out ways okay. So in order to deal with your withdrawal symptoms you may need to get some kind of medical help to ensure that you know your withdrawal symptoms aren't very heavy. The next step may be to minimize or take away all the, all the bottles from your home or it may be to, to get the support of maybe your wife or someone else to, to work through this or it may be to go into a rehabilitation center. So formulating those very, very simple plans is something that you're doing. So this is a preparation and this is a phase where you're getting them to work and work ahead of it. The next stage is the action phase. The action stage is where they are beginning to make those smaller changes. They're beginning to attempt to move from where they were. So here they believe people have the ability and maybe the will to change their behavior and are involved in taking steps to change that behavior by, by maybe using a variety of techniques. And this, the amount of time that people take here could vary depending on you know what the issue is and, and where they are at. So it is, they are modifying their behavior, they're modifying their experience, they're modifying their environment in order to overcome that problem. So it, it generally involves some changes, behavioral changes and it may require some commitment that depends on what they are, maybe the time that they use, the motivation that they use, they have, they've planned it and, and it takes that time for them to go through that. Okay, now they, they are also able to review their commitment for them, with themselves and also develop plans on how they want to deal with what kind of pressures they may be coming from external or internal pressures. They also could use rewards. This is all in the action phase, very similar to what we spoke about. So they tend to be very open at this time to receiving help, they're likely to seek support from others which is a very important element, you know, seek prayer, seek spiritual help. So then from this is where they move and yeah, sorry, what are the, what are the techniques that we need to use, is continue to reinforce, reinforce with the rewards like appreciation, encouragement, you know, support and you're also planning for, for follow-up support till, till you do see that there is, there is that continued commitment to, to sustaining that, that sense of behavior and, and you're, you're just helping them to work through, through that phase. Okay, here you're also going to be boosting their ability or their, the fact that they are able to deal with these obstacles. Also you're, you're helping them focus on their feelings of loss or feelings of disappointment or joy or whatever. Any kind of feelings that, that may be coming up is what you are attempting to do. From here, they move into the maintenance phase. The maintenance phase is the phase where it's, it's, they have managed to, to sustain that behavior, the, whatever changes that they want. They've managed to sustain that behavior and what you, what you're attempting to do here is to, again, to be able to encourage. So here, they've successfully avoided any relapse or any temptation to return to that habit. So the goal of, of this phase is to, is to continuously help them maintain the status quo, this, this position that they are in. And then, you know, generally you, you have them to tend to look back at the progress that they have made. So at this phase, people begin to reformulate certain new practices or rules for their life, they begin to acquire new skills in, to deal with life so that they don't avoid relapsing or getting back into that earlier phase, right? Even here, they are also, they've come to a place they're able to anticipate if something were to happen, if a relapse were to happen. They're also aware of what, what they need to continuously stay maintained, right? And they, they also begin to make choices during this time. So as a counselling, counsellor, your point is to continue to reinforce and to keep following up support whenever and however they require and continue to discuss how they can cope for, for a relapse not to come back, okay? So this is, these are the five stages. Now even as we've spoken about these stages, let's remember that it is normal and sometimes quite natural to regress. You know, they may attain one phase only to fall back to a previous stage. And this is a very normal part of making changes in our behaviour. For some point of time, you know, we do something consistently. We have the willpower and suddenly something happens, a trigger happens and then we've gone back to the same, same phase. So even sometimes in the course of a day, you can often go through these several, several stages. Now there can be chances of relapse that they move back, they resume their old behaviours, right? At this point of time, what you do is you evaluate what have been the triggers or what have been the issues for a relapse, reassess that motivation and help them to come back to this place of preparation, action and then maintenance so that they can keep focusing on, on, on sustaining that new behaviour once again, okay? Yeah, any, any questions, any thoughts, any, any inputs? I don't have a question but I'm just out of curiosity, I want to know. What is the longest you have counseled someone just a little? Okay, actually I have somebody for the last three years that I've still seen someone with significant struggles and issues in, in their personal life. So yeah, three years I think is my longest and which is still that somebody I'm still continuing. Thank you. Yes, Divya. Yeah, thank you ma'am. I just wanted to know like when, when a portion comes either in this case, in this case study as Dennis's case study, like they didn't come with that need but someone pushed them into it, but there might be cases where there is a genuine, I mean this is also genuine, what I'm saying is there are problems that do not have a practical solution or, or sometimes the counseling themselves are not, not part of the problem, like they are not causing the problem, they are just, you know, maybe a circumstantial issue or they are just, you know, maybe a victim there. For example, if at all the person is in a toxic relationship where they're not contributing to the problem but they do not know, even they may not be able to know what the solution to it is, you know, maybe that or death of a loved one, you know, there is no practical solution to it but in those such cases, what is the goal of the counselor? Like maybe the counselor doesn't know what the solution is, right? There is no, nothing to work towards, right, to come with a practical solution but, but in those cases, right, how do you understand what you should work towards? Yeah, that's good. Okay, I hope I make sense. Yeah, yeah, you did, you're absolutely right. Actually, a lot of cases that we may see may fall in that category, you know, that, okay, so as we looked at, counseling is not only about helping people find solutions, it's also about helping people cope through different events, circumstances of life. Now, the very fact that someone who is in need has come to a counselor, has come with a certain outcome in mind, okay? So they may, it may look like a situation that they don't know what they want and that's why questions, the power of questions is very useful in counseling. Like, for example, someone coming to you with grief, your thought may be okay, they may, they want, how am I going to solve that problem? Yeah, you can't solve that problem, you can't bring back, you know, the person they've lost, right, or you can't do anything to replace their loss, but they've come for something. So like I said, to always start a session with, for a counselor to come to a point to say, hey, listen, I have no clue about, I mean, you're the, you're the master of your life, you're someone who knows yourself better than I do, and that's why I want to hear from you as to what support and help or outcome or hope that you have from our conversation. And you will find, believe me, you will find because never in my experience have anyone told me, I don't, I mean, they may start with an I don't know or things like that, but the more that you continue to explore it, they will come up with ways or tell you, you know, this is what I'm looking, even they may say, you know, I just want someone to talk to. That's a goal, right? I just, I don't have a place to cry or to share or to really pour out my heart everywhere. I have to put up a brief front. If I don't, I am seen as someone who's not, who doesn't have faith in God. They just want to open up to you. And that's a goal in itself. That's an excellent goal at the place that they are in, because as they're doing that, they are gaining strength. They are gaining a comfort. They're gaining strategies on how to cope. You know, maybe just by, if you, if you look at half the people who are actually talking to you, begin to formulate their, their own answers. They will say, okay, while I'm talking to you, I'm getting the answers myself. I've heard people say that so many times. While I'm just sharing what I have, I know I have to do one, two, three things. Right? So whatever the situation is, as a counsellor, if you are working hard to find what you can do for them, I think that's not the place we need to be. It's not you who needs to work hard. You need to help your counsellor to work hard to figure out what outcome they want. Right? So let's say a situation. You said a toxic situation. Right? So you're saying, okay, through our conversation, what are you really hoping for? So they may say something like, I want to know one, maybe they say, I want to know how I can get out of this. That's an outcome. Or second, I want to know what I can do to keep myself safe. Or I want to know how I can become stronger. Now these are all outcomes. In our minds, we should be careful not to judge outcomes according to importance. Whatever the counsellor comes with and saying, okay, this is what I want. Now let's suppose there is a, and we have many people like this also coming. Someone who is having a walk with the Lord. Okay? No problem. They just have a walk with the Lord. And you're saying, okay, how can I help this person? They may tell you, you know, I really want to experience a greater walk with the Lord. That is, that is an outcome. That's an outcome for them. And you, your journey is to walk them through finding that outcome that they're looking for. Okay? Now even as your journey, now this seems a very positive thing. Now let's look at something that is maybe, let's say, an issue like someone's coming with an extra marital affair. All right? And the answer is very clear with you. But the best thing that they do is to, to be able to cut the affair. Now am I as a counsellor going to, again, now this depends very clearly if these are believers or unbelievers. As a believer, we definitely go through the Word of God and that's something we challenge them. We challenge them to think in those lines. All right? Let's suppose they say the right, I've come to you, I know that this is not right in the eyes of God, but I want to know how to cope with it. Okay? So that is, again, a dichotomy in what they're thinking and how they, how they're behaving. So that's something you need to challenge. Now let's suppose it's someone who's an unbeliever who comes to you and they're saying, okay, I just, I need to figure out how to cope with this. I don't know how to cope with this. They're not saying I want to leave the person. They're saying I want to cope with this. So I'm not going to ask them, so you don't want to leave this relationship. Do you think this is, I'm not going to go in that lines. My question would be, okay, if you needed to cope with this healthily in a way that you have your peace of mind as well as maybe the strength of your family, what are some of the important steps you may need to take? I've just put a question forth like this. Believe it or not, they will say, one of the, they'll say, I know the obvious answer is that I have to be careful. I have to maybe give up this relationship. You validate, is it? Yeah, that's a that's a good thought. What have you thought about it? So in that way, you're helping them formulate a certain measure, okay, because whenever you are helping your counsellor to come up with a certain measure of change, they will be a lot more motivated to do it rather than me doing it. So if I were to tell this person, you know, the very fact that you're in this relationship is why you have all this trouble, he's not going to come back to me. He's going to say, you're too judgmental. I will, you know, you have an understood me enough, right? So I've got to use the measure that the counsellor starts with and begin to build from that, even though it's the smallest of ones, even though it is I just want to talk or I just want to free myself or I just want a space I can easily communicate. Whatever it may be, you will build from there into something that that can be more engaging and helpful for them. Sure. Thank you. Thank you, mom. Yeah, okay. All right. Okay. Any other question? All right. If there isn't, thank you for your contributions. Again, as I said last week, I'd really like to hear the rest of the voices. I know it may be way into the night or, you know, difficult circumstances, but a voice here or there is very encouraging, not just for me, but for the DIA and Jafina who also talk. So, encouraging all of us to participate. Yes, success. Yes. Do you have a question? Good morning. Good morning, my lecturer. I want to say thank you so much for the lecture. I enjoy all the lectures, though I have not really contributed for lecture because of my time and the work of God over here. But my own input is, my only input is that please, if you have to stand with us in prayer, tomorrow is our general election, presidential election. We are praying, we need your prayer that God should give us a very God-faring leader. A leader that shares God. Nigeria through 12, through problem for part eight years. And we know that with collective prayer, everything will be successful. That's just what I want to say. Please, everybody pray for us. We are praying as we go to prayer tonight for it. Thank you so much. Sure, sure success. Thank you. But Divya, would you like to close and also pray for success? They say that it's their elections tomorrow and they are hoping and praying for a Godly leader. Would you like to do that, Divya? Sure, sure ma'am. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, go ahead. Hallelujah. Thank you. But thank you for this wonderful time that you've given us, Father Lord. Thank you, Father, for teaching us these truths. Yes, Lord, sometimes we just rush through these Lord and we don't realize, Lord, what problems people are going through, Father. But help us, Lord, even as we talk with people, help us be mindful about all these things, Lord, that we can offer them help, Father, in a Godly way. Father, not to put them down or embarrass or but genuinely help, Father Lord, to give them Godly counsel. We are to to walk alongside and help the people who are hurting, Father, who are broken and who need help, Lord. Thank you especially for Jean Ma'am. Thank you for teaching these concepts to us, Father Lord. Thank you for giving her the grace and the strength in the wisdom. I pray that you continue to strengthen her and bless her, Lord, in all walks of her life, her family. Especially, Father, we pray for the elections, Lord, that Brother Success was asking prayers for. Yes, Father, we know, Lord, you are the one who establishes the reign and rule, the authorities of her. We completely trust, Lord, the, all the, Lord, you are the sovereign God and everything is in your control. Whatever the decision be, we pray, Lord, as Brother was asking, Lord, let God fearing and deeply, a person who is deeply rooted in the word of God, who has this great desire to follow the Lord, may come to this positions of authority, Father. We pray that the nation be blessed through him. I pray for the people who are working towards Father, this election as well as who are praying for this and who are actively participating. I pray for your wisdom and grace upon each one, Lord. We commit all the students into loving hands of God. Help us, Lord, and keep us until we meet next time. In Jesus preciously we pray. Thank you, Divya. Thank you all. Thank you very much. Thank you. God bless. Meet you all next week. Thank you. Thank you, man. Thank you. Bye-bye.