 tight deadline. We can only talk for two hours. All right, we are live and ready to talk about jar page. I mean, right off the bat, why are there so many copies? Why? Because I actually live in a bookstore. Oh, nice. You do own like a lot of books. Like, it's really beautiful. It's my dream. OK, I own a lot of books, but I don't actually own that many stories because like it's just a lot of repeats. I actually own like two books, but like 50 copies of each. Sounds about right. Thank you. All right, I'm just trying to share this to my thing. Share. Share to your thing. I'm working on it. I'm being a good person live now. I don't know about all that. Yeah, right. Supported. And they can't write books correctly, apparently. All right. So how did we all? How many times? I've read it three times. I'm surprised it's only three times for you. You have so many copies. What am I before? But I think it's just three. Do you read a new copy, Erin? Erin's comments so good. Yeah, right. Oh, she hasn't even gotten. OK, I was really nervous, Erin, because you can get me plenty of drinks and cigarettes by the end of it. Well, Erin commented on my video and because I talk about like how this book to me feels tonally just so distinctly darker than the other ones. But I didn't want to like oversell it either because like only the title could warn you. It's still there's four books before this that are nowhere near this. I mean, I don't know. It's still happy. Yeah, but it's really sad. It's different for sure. It's different. It's just totally. Wait, so I've read it three times, twice. And twice, twice, OK. Although really it was like reading it for the first time for me, so. Shame. It was honestly great. I rarely get to reread things like it's the first time. So it's kind of a treat. Well, did you did it improve on reread? I mean, I was more able to pinpoint the parts that didn't work for me and I didn't expect it to be a page turner. So I wasn't disappointed this time. But I do think if all of my faults still exist for it for me. Lowkey, this is like the this part that it's all downhill from there. That's like the part that's to me personally the most brutal, but it's definitely not objectively the most brutal. I just personally feel the most about that. I mean, there's a lot going on in that scene. Like it's like the White House level. It's it's really rough, but multiple things are game of Thrones level. That's just the one that I can't even tell you. I can't really explain why that one bothers me more than all the rest of it, but it does. I literally like when I got to that point in the book on this reread, I knew that was about to happen. And I just stopped reading the book for several days, being like, ah, later, I don't need to read that right now. And so I was like, I need to get through that so that I can finish the book. See, I knew something wrong was going to happen, but I couldn't remember the details of what wrong was going to happen. I can. Yeah. That was all I think of when I think of Dark Age. I mean, I think it's literally one of the most brutal moments just because of how it happens. It's very like visceral. Yeah, it's a literal mob. Just like makeshift weapons. It was rough. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And Leanna likes to remind us that Lightbringer needed to be rewritten and split into two books because it was too dark, the first draft. The first draft, yeah. So I'm always like, sir, I've read Dark Age. What was too dark in the original Lightbringer that you were like, no, I need to. This this manuscript is too dark. What was in there? Half of the manuscript. Do we know when the fourth book is coming next year? I think hopefully next year we'll see. I don't know if it was submitted at the same time. I mean, no, art's got to art. So I mean, I think like some parts of what Red God is going to be were written, which is what made them go, OK, we need to split this. But I don't think he's like finished Red God or anything. Yeah. Got it. Yeah. All right. I did keep a death tally this time around, too. Why? Just character deaths, because. Because there were a lot of names. There's a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There was a post that did he share it? I forget where I saw it. But someone was like, I just finished Dark Age and like. But like either like Pierce Brown was like scraping out his brain every day or he's a sociopath and Pierce Brown replied both. Oh, you shared that with us in our Instagram. So I think it was a tweet. I wish I remember like who shared that tweet on Instagram if it was like Pierce Brown sharing it or if someone else was sharing that Pierce Brown had replied to them. But it doesn't really matter. Point is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So do I mean, we're kind of keeping it non-spoiler right now. I kind of figure anyone watching this has read it, but like do we want to say some quick non-spoiler things like overall general thoughts? Yeah. I mean, go ahead, Angela. I do think for me the military focus parts are my least favorite and we're a large focus of this book. And so I think that's why it kind of drags for me. And I don't think it's a bad thing. It's kind of like when I read Assassin's Quest, I really don't like how long the quest is, but I know it's there for the fatigue. And that was kind of, I think, the point of it here, but still like feeling those emotions on multiple levels was not like fun. So especially because like the first part of this book is just like one big battle. Yeah. This is very accurate. He is one of the longest battles that I've ever read. Like obviously the last battle in real time is like a hundred pages long or whatever. But oh, no, it's actually like 200 pages. It's nine hours on audiobook. I don't remember. It was long, but this is up there because it's like the entire first part of the book. Yeah. Which is awesome, which is why I love that part. Yeah. But the minute we got to part two and I got more perspectives, I was having more fun. So I think like I could really pinpoint that like for me that fatigue, which is meant to be there, the fatigue of war and all that, it was just, and then we have other fatiguing things such as, you know, no happiness. Zero happiness. Zero fun, sir. I mean, I remember when I first read this, I loved it, but I was literally exhausted by the end of it. I do remember the one thing that I didn't care about was his emphasis on like meat related explanations of things and like how detailed he kept getting into just explaining gore in combat. And I was just like, after a while, I kind of got annoyed by it, which I didn't care this time around. But the first time I read it, I was like, do we have to keep doing this? It was sunny on Mercury. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I also like, I think it was bold of us to spend so much time on Mercury where the politics and the people of Mercury, I don't care about them. I care about Mars and I care about Moon, Luna. That's it. I don't care about anyone else. Well, it's okay, because Mercury probably doesn't have that problem anymore, so. Also like, I know they terraform things and this is the future, but I'm like, there is not a planet I would like to live on less than the one closest to the sun. Yeah. Yeah, my overall thoughts is I love it and it's way better on the reread, honestly, because I said this in our iron goal chat, like I didn't care about Lyria or Ephraim at all the first time around and I kind of like them a lot more this time around and their chapters were way more interesting in Dark Age. So rereading it definitely helped me like those characters more. And I love Darrow. I love all the battles. I love all the war. That's why I read these books. My last thing real quick is I disliked that they changed audio narrators for everyone but Darrow in the second book. It's okay, they're doing it again. It might all be TGR. No more full cast audio. You're gonna get TGR reading a bunch of female characters. Because at least the liner one was okay. He was fine. And then the, did they have a different one for Lyrian and Mustang or were they the same? Ephraim was the same. Ephraim was the same. The Lyria voice actor is totally different. Lyria was different, it was a different accent. And Lycander was different because I was like, this is not Lycander. Yeah. I honestly didn't like the change for either of them for their audio. They're still better than Tim. Tim Gerard runnids. Tim is always the most funny. Every time I had his chapter, I had to slow it down because he mumbles so much. I can't like, he doesn't have diction. So anyways, that's not important to the content of the book, but how I consumed it, I was annoyed initially. I mean, it's like doing audiobook for real time. Well, since Ephraim's my favorite and Ephraim didn't change, then everything is fine. I mean, he did change, it's just, you know. I'll save that for later. I mean, the narrator didn't change. I'll save that for later. I know. I was thinking the same thing. So Lyanna, overall thoughts then? Overall thoughts, yeah. I mean, I've said before that like, from a like technical perspective, I think Dark Age is the best thing Pierce Brown has written to date, obviously accepting the possibility of Lightbringer. My favorite like reading just like to read as an experience is still Golden Sun and it probably always will be, but like Dark Age is like much higher quality from like writing craft and pacing and world building and all everything basically. So like well done, sir. Dark Age is also like now, well now I know basically like all the beats in Dark Age. Some stuff like, you know, it's a really, really long book. So even this third time through, I was like, oh yeah, forgot about that. But for the most part, like I know it's going to happen, but I remember just like the first time so much about Dark Age, like we like obviously opened this chat by being like it's so much darker than everything that came before, which it is. But it's not even like the darkness that was the most shocking to me. It was so many other things about it that were, that I was like, I didn't know this was an option for the Red Rising universe that are introduced in Dark Age that I'm just like, I talk about changing the paradigm. I'm just like, I didn't know this was like on the table as a possibility for something that would happen in this universe. So there's like so many things like that that I just think make the series just like open it up. Like, yes, we've gone to like new places and that's happened consistently throughout the series. We see new planets, new locations, new characters, whatever. But there's like new like concepts, I don't know how to say it, non-spoilery, that are like introduced that it's just like it makes the world so much more like crazy and interesting and it makes you go like question everything that like, you thought you knew about this universe up to this point because you're just like, what? So then what else might be possible and true and out there like blah, blah, blah, blah? So many questions. So yeah, Dark Age is just like, it's just like a, yeah, it's a step in like a higher, darker, different or bigger direction. It's also the first time that it gets kind of like weird because there's some things that he introduces in this book where it's just like, I thought I was alluding to it. Okay. But it's also still like in keeping with how he's been pulling from like so many fun sci-fi tropes. It's like, oh, well, you just haven't done this one yet. So bring it in. And he goes hard on the Viking shit in this book, which is just fantastic. Also, why was this the book where we had to be like, fear is the, what was it? Fear is the torrent. Fear is the torrent. Every time a book does that, I just like. Because otherwise he's going to get copyrighted. Because then the mind's eye is the, what's it called in Dune? I don't remember what it's called in Dune, but at least that one, like, yes, it's obviously an illusion, but like I can't remember the thing in Dune whereas Dune is like fear is the mind killer is like, and then I read Empire of Science and they have fear is something in there. And I'm just like, guys, guys. I think Pierce Browns is still better than. Well, yes, yes, but it's still, I don't know. It's not bad, but it also makes me, it unimmerses me because I roll my eyes for a second and then I get back to the story. If he like didn't do interesting creative like things and put his own spin on it, I would be more annoyed, but like he's very obviously like, if you ask him about it, he's like, yes, I took that out of Dune straight up. Like he's not going to like be like, no, actually I was, no, he's like, yes, I literally just took that out of Dune. But also he like, he like does more interesting things with it as well. Well, I can probably come to a place where I don't even like fear is the mind killer. Like I think that's like one of the corniest things to ever exist in a classic piece of work. I'm just like, okay, Edge Lord, getting that tattooed on your bicep now, like what are we doing? Yeah, I'm naturally like, I'm so used to hearing fear as the mind killer that it is quite iconic sounding, but also it's really stupid like mind killer. And so the fear is the torrent to me like, it's legitimately a better phrase. Like is it like, to me, I'm like, I know what you mean when you say that. And like I get like the vibe of like the experience of fear and the way you get swept up by it. And that if you don't fight against that, that you'll be swept up by the torrent of it. And mind killer, I'm like, what? Yeah. It obviously kills your mind, yeah. That's why your mind is broken. I mean, I think what it means to me- It's just like, this is your brain on drugs. Is that mind killer? I assume it's like- This is your brain on spice. Oh gosh. I mean, yeah. I mean, I think that happens to a lot of iconic lines that people like in fandoms hyper fixate on. Like, I'm so over like journey before destination. Like I'm like super over that line. And that's in a series that like I kind of like. So, you know, it's just like, yeah. But I'm never going to be over. You have to be realistic. You have to be realistic with these things. One can never have too many- That one's honestly great though. Like look, everything he says is, it's worthy. Why do I do this? Body found floating by the dogs. I could do this all night. They're all cold. 14 minutes before we had a Joe Abercrombie boyfriend. Yeah, that's, I mean, it is what it is at this point. Every single live show ever. Sometimes it's not my fault. Sometimes other people bring it up. It only happens when you're here, so. Sometimes it's not my fault. You have to have the blame for that. We have to be realistic about these things. Yeah. I guess, still a non-spoiler then. What was your favorite POV throughout, I guess the second arc of the story so far? Either of you. Oh, I loved getting Mustang. I would never had a POV with her, and I adored that. She's been my favorite character for a really long time. Now all I need is like, you know. There's just one other, and I liked Liria's because Liria got to meet with a character that I love being with, that I haven't been with since the original trilogy. Yep. I enjoy that. How about you, Liana? I mean, you know my favorite POV is Ephraim. Oh. It's just Ephraim. She's just sticking to it. Fine. Well, he's the most different, and he's the most different in terms of both his personality and in terms of what he's looking at and what he has got eyes on, that everything about his perspective just stands out from all the others. That's true. And you're okay with it, even though he is with the obsidians who we've talked about a couple of books ago that you don't like the world building around? Well, because now obsidians have accepting that stupid premise of how they originally came to be, like we've moved on from that, and they're like where they currently are, they're kind of dealing with like, they're kind of dealing with the after effects of it, like they're fully aware of the world and what they're gonna do now about it and stuff. So that is real life politics. It's not like we believe in like, we are living on the ice and the golds are just gods to us, like they know who the golds are, they know they're on Mars, they're playing politics. They're like, this I can engage with. Okay, I was just curious because like, I understand he's your favorite character. I just didn't know if he was in your favorite part of the story to look at. Yeah, this is like a much more interesting like way to look at the obsidians. When we're like visiting their homeland and we're like, have to convince them that golds are human beings. I'm just like, this is all stupid. We cannot with this. What about you, Alex? They were designed that way. I mean, I always loved Arrow, obviously because I love the war, but getting Virginia POVs is probably the most new and interesting because I never, I liked Efrem more this time around and especially in Dark Age because he became a more likable character. I hated his POV and Iron Gold because he was just like an annoying asshole. Liria's was probably still my least favorite overall just for like from what happens in that plot compared to the other parts of the book. I liked the politics a lot more on Luna with Virginia and Darrow has all of the war. And I mean, even Lysander, like getting the dueling POVs of that combat was great. So I'm always gonna be a sucker for Pierce Brown combat because it's fantastic. So that's where I go. I will say Darrow annoyed me less this time. Darrow annoyed me more. I found him slightly more sympathetic, but I still was always, I'm still, I'm cool if when he leaves the book, I'm cool. I'm cool. We're not in the theory section yet. Stop it. You're stupid theories that are gonna destroy my world. My correct theories. Can we, are we allowed to take the spoilers loves off now? Yeah, sure. Because I feel like every time I say a name, I want to, like I'm scared I'm ruining a non-death. Like I want to be like, I want victor perspectives, but like if I say that. She's still alive? What's the number of people that have died? If anyone is in chat, we are going to spoil this book now. So if you haven't read on and you don't, you don't want to know. Things that happen. You don't want to know that Sofro and Victra and Mustang are all dead that. So where do we want to start then with spoilers? There's a lot. We can go chronological or we can bounce around. We can just say like tier ranking of trauma. Well, tier ranking of trauma, then if we're just going purely off of like character deaths, the least traumatic is probably tongue was dying because he just cut like cutting half just unceremoniously, just gone deleted permanently before we'd learned anything about him. And there's some theories out there that like, oh, what if he was Ragnar's actual dad? I was like, what? Read some crazy shows on the internet. Yeah, who cares? I forgot about Ephraim. So that was really sad. How did you, what? So what I forgot, I thought he died sooner. Like in my head, like the, where it happens in the book, I thought like the scene where that happens was like earlier on. So when I was reading it the third time, I was like, he's still alive. He's not dead yet. I forgot how quickly it happens after Sefi dies. It's like a couple pages later. Yeah, it's like a red wedding. Yeah. It's really rough. So I mean, okay. So while we're talking about that though, if you already don't like the obsidians, how do you feel about space obsidians that are even more hardcore into the Viking culture than regularly speaking? But that's like so much cooler and more out there. Like I am so here for it. Like we commit to the bit. So us like the obsidians originally because we thought they were cool as valid. It's the same logic. Oh! But mostly thought is like, like imposed on them by some like board that's like, we're going to pretend to be gods with masks and they're going to buy the bit and when they're going to believe it, like no. They're like out there in space doing their own weird cult shit and then they show up and we're like, we're going to take shit over where our cult is in charge now. Like that's way more interesting. He is character acting so hard as like Ragnar from Vikings with the shit. Like blood eagling, Sefi. Like taking his armor off and being bare chested and like challenging people to duels. Like he's got the longest braid known to man. It's down to the floor. Like he's he is as Viking as it comes. And it's so absurd and over the top. And like he's eating people's hearts. Like what are we doing? It's he's Danny bananas. He's what? He's Danny. Do we think we live in a world where people can get transplant hearts in time for Ephraim to not be dead? No, no, he's dead. Not to mention, even if that is true, like he wouldn't have gotten it in time. And they talk about burying him at the end of dark. Yeah, you're right, you're right. It was one of those things where, I mean, you know, like other, like there's something else that could happen. Well, I know we do live in a world where cloning is an option. We're talking about Sophocles, right? Yeah, Sophocles the 7th. We're only on 7th. Is that stated somewhere that? I think iron gold, we have a number, but I can't remember. I think it was seven. OK, I wasn't sure. I thought you were making it up, to be honest. No, they do mention it when Lyria is with them and like has to deal with the meds and stuff. It's somewhere in there. But no, the space obsidians are terrifying. They remind me a lot of the Reavers in Firefly. Yeah, that's definitely the vibe. Just so terrifying. So how do you feel about the fig? Oh, so far. How do I feel about the what? The fig, the figament. I don't know how she's going to work at help, but I'm glad that Pax showed her the way and she's off on her own to do whatever she needs to. Where did it come from? What is it? It's an AI, I don't know. Came from came from fig that speaks poetry. Speaks weird. I miss that weird little eye worm that this AI. Yeah, like in Lyria's mind, it like says like poetic things that then later is it Victor or somebody that repeats those things? Or maybe no, it's it's Pax. It's like says the same poetic line. And Lyria is like, I only heard that in my brain. Like, how do you know about that? And he's like, oh, because like my research tells about this thing. Is am I right? Is that what it said to you? And she's like, yes. Yes, a little weirdo at least Pax is being helpful. You know, I thought it was really interesting because like not Victor, Virginia is like very much throughout the series painted as like not perfect, but like pretty close to perfect. And like she's always the wisest, always the calmest, always like things 10 steps ahead. Like, you know, it's like she's less like usually if a character is making a mistake is not her. She's usually the one dealing with the fallout of a mistake. So I thought it was really interesting that we get this like one general having her perspective is interesting, but like towards the very end of Dark Age when she's reunited with Pax and she's like, is he going to resent me for the fact that I raised him to be an ally as much as a son. And you're just like such an interesting like insight into like her not being like the perfect ideal mother that like she's in a sense like kind of like her father, like manipulating her child into like being something that's useful to her. Yeah. I feel like it's kind of inevitable when you're like running society, though. Like she can't just be his mom. Just like Daryl can't just be his dad. Daryl has just like decided to like abandon duty all together. And Virginia is like, I'm going to turn you into a political. You're welcome. And Pax is like, sorry, sir. But I mean, to Alex's point, I also think it's kind of a survival thing to for Pax. Like if Pax doesn't have the tools to realize how he'll be used even by his own mom, then he can't have any agent. But the fact that that's not how Virginia thinks about it, she's not like I've had to teach him so many things that a child shouldn't need to know. Instead, she's like, I've raised him to be my ally. Like that that's in her mind. That that's how she's I mean, that's in her mind in that moment. But I wouldn't be surprised if she thinks other thoughts, too. It's just the one that we know it's literally a thought. No, I don't think he's obviously also a mother who is looking to protect. So I think it's probably both. But yeah, this is also like the contrast between Lysander, Pax and Alexander. I would also add into that like at Atlantia and Ajax, like all of them, like so many different takes on being born into privilege. Well, you have Alexander who like is privileged, but he's like seemingly a genuinely good person. Although even Darrow doesn't fully believe that until way too late. Yeah. And then you have Lysander who's like, wait, no, I am privileged. I am better than these people. Like I should reunite us and reform the society because we did have the right idea. Like he's like we're doing this again. This whole series ends with him winning. I don't know how to handle it. Well, I mean, there is a little crack in the armor, though, at the very end when he realizes how used he is among his own people and how like Ajax literally wants to kill him and tried to kill him. And Alania, Atlantia, Atlantia groomed everyone. Disgusting. And like how his mother was killed by his grandmother. And his mother was a reformer. So who knows where maybe. And he was raised by someone or like semi raised, you know, by Cassius, who like this is clearly not what Cassius thinks is right either. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, to Matt's point, the mind's eye, I think Pierce Brown really just wanted that in the book. Like I mean, it's set up a little bit. No, it wasn't. No, I mean, like the fight that there's like stuff, you know, because like we did the like fear box thing with Darrow and Octavia earlier. So like the idea that she's got these like things that she like secret knowledges and training and stuff like it doesn't totally come out of nowhere. It's like set up that there's like stuff going on. But like this specifically is not set up. I mean, it's as set up as Darrow secretly training with Lauren. And it's more set up than that. Cassius took it as like weird meditation training. I don't know if that's actually what it is, but I took it like the void and wheel of time and whatever. It's just like this. Like, I mean, it's literally the Benny Jester training. It's it literally is. It's it's Paul being able to just kind of like hone in because of who he is. And basically not really do it, but like essentially slow down time and like enhance the senses and combat to be unbeatable. Like that's that's what it was. And then you have freaking Apollonius being like, teach me, young one. Like I want to know. As long as we don't have the freaking voice, if we take that from Dune next, I don't know what I'm going to do. That would be sick for no reason. They just have Benny Jester teaching the voice. Oh, I forgot to call it something else. So in terms of a happy thing, I forgot. I forgot Cassius was alive, even though when I read Iron Gold, I'm like, I didn't see a body and I've been trained to see bodies. Oldest trick in the book, he was never dead. You don't just kill Cassius offscreen like that. I was like, I think I wondered in Iron Gold, but then Dark Age is so long that like I had just like forgotten that I ever suspected that he was alive and we'd so moved on from that that by the time he did show up again, I was like, what? So and he was the cavalry, so it's also in that trope. And we have like too many cavalry moments that really we don't get victory anywhere. But, you know, it's the scraps. I did love that it basically did like the anime scene. It's like Lysander looks up and like Cassius is literally like looking out of the ship and they lock eyes. Like how the how would that have ever happened in the middle of? I mean, they were also riding horses, but it was less dumb than Rise of Skywalker. So they were giant horses. I mean, I love that entire combat though. Like I again, I love that sci-fi always finds a way to make people fight with swords and on horseback because they're literally they have bombs dropping from the sky, they have like full ass ships that are hundreds of miles long. They have massive EMPs that basically wipe out half the planet. And they're like, oh, EMP, you say horseback with swords. Let's go. Like they literally create a phalanx and like drop to the ground and they're stabbing horses in the guts. I'm like, this is this is so dumb and it's awesome to do that. Because I have been reading another space offer trilogy where it's actually keeping completely true to tech. Like there's no animals because they couldn't survive because of resources. And so they built robot horses. And they even have like bio locked guns so you can't steal someone's gun off of them. Like, yeah, yeah. Oh, so my roughest trauma for the whole book is Jack. So I will never ever, ever be over deck. So I was shook when I when I read that the first time around just because of how like hateful and harsh it was just these like this mob of people. And as this giant is just protecting Virginia, like destroying everybody, but also just trying to get them to stop and they just keep coming and like literally hack into pieces and toss his head around like a ball. And then later, we get to get reminded of that when Cavex is sad that he can't bury Daxo because they weren't able to recover the remains at all. Yeah, it's just like, oh, and the book plays with you a little bit because right before it, the book plays with the idea that Daxo could be a betrayer like it kind of like, you know, it's setting all these false clues of what is the thing. But it also does the thing where Daxo is like, I'd be a probably a pretty good dad and you're like, you're about to die. Yeah, you're totally dead, dude. So sad. But yeah, that was tough. But in that Virginia plot arc, I I don't like clone. What's his face? Jackal, I at all, it's so gross. Everything about it is so disgusting. I just can't. I think it's an interesting like. What do you have is Lilith growing a clone in her belly? But I think it's an interesting examination of nature versus nurture. Like to answer the question of was Adreus the seed of evil or was he made evil by his father? And the answer is, of course, a bit of both. I honestly, I hated that the first time around, though, because when clone Adreus shows up, I'm like, really? He had that in his back pocket during Morningstar. Like he knew he was going to die. So he literally had a clone of himself that Lilith could go have. Have birth and get him. It was like, what? No, it was very. It felt a lot like it felt a little bit like Star Wars, like what, like episode nine. We're just like, oh, we don't know what enemies to do now. Bring in an old one, like a little. Somehow the. I was going to say, at least no one said dark science cloning. Secrets only the what Augustus is new. Yeah, so I don't know. I'm going to be curious when I finished this book the first time, things that I needed to figure out what would happen next. The jackals, a big one where I'm like, I need to know what we're doing with this to know if I like it or not. I mean, so far it's OK and interesting, but I have other cloning books. You know, I think the the reason it will turn out to be interesting is because I don't think Pierce Brown brought him back just to be the jackal again in the same way that he was. Like he's obviously impressionable. He obviously knows he's being manipulated by his motivation. Which Virginia is automatically like the thing that drove Adreus was like trying to like for myself to my father. Yeah. And that's just not a factor. And there's so many things that Lilla hasn't told him that he's like, I did what I had what. Yeah, I mean, I just I also worry because we have so many moving parts now. Right. Like this book is exhausting because it is long and it's dense. We have a lot of moving parts. And so and I think that's probably why we have two books instead of a third for the last one. And I mean, he stuck the landing with Morningstar. And I'm just nervous because we just have so much. That's why we introduced a lot of two books. I know, but like, you know, not everyone, even with two books makes it good, you know, like, yeah. When I first read Dark Age, I was like, there's no way he's wrapping this up in one book. Like, and then back before he even like talked about splitting it and having read God, like the way that this ends. And we'll jump back to other stuff. But like, ultimately, who's going to be the final bad guy? Because you have like the entire society uniting against the rising again. But now you have space Vikings and whatever else is out there. So it's like and the fig. Yeah, but it's like, is sorry, are they all going to like this? The Volcing Faw doesn't give a shit about the society. He's not going to join them, at least not permanently. Like the rim is pissed off. He's technically like wasn't there. I don't remember if he's his own agent now or what, but wasn't the white who was in Sefi's pocket right like, but was betraying Sefi? Wasn't he saying that Faw was actually a part of not the Minotaur, but the other guy, all their names start with A. Not Atalantia, but like the guy that got stolen when Lysander infiltrated in Mercury. What's his name, Atlas? Apollonius? No, Atlas. Atlas Ara. Like I thought he was I thought he was supposed to be a part of the Fear Knights retinue. I thought that's what the white said. Volcing Faw. Maybe. I don't remember. Because I remember that was a thing Faw was talking to Ephraim and something about. So I thought that he was actually part of the Gold's regime still. Could be. But like, I just he doesn't strike me as somebody who's going to just like fall in line and support gold. Fair enough. It just like, that's what I vaguely pieced together. Yeah. I mean, so because I'm at the point you were either going to have, I guess, this is partially prediction stuff, right? In Lightbringer and or Red God, there's either going to be an introduction of somebody else joining the fray or a bunch of betrayals. Because as of right now, like at the end of this book, you have a society way stronger than the rising, just sheer number wise. You have space Vikings with Volcing Faw. And you and if they do unite, the rising toast unless they outsmart everybody. And you have Dero and Cassie. Which in theory is with the society, but like also a lot of it just died. Well, because Seraphina got deleted, which is hilarious. She's like, I say in this gap, just gone. Lysander was pretty upset about it. Do we know what happened with her brother? Is he just still around and we just haven't seen him since part one? Yeah, because he refused to participate. And that's why Seraphina was like, well, I can participate. You know, I just meant like we haven't like reunited with him at any point. Like because he just went back to the rim, I think. Oh, I thought he just stayed on the ship while they all went into the rain for that. But then everyone did come down and then there's this whole like, you know, the parade for Lysander and then was he going to die? No, he didn't because he did the weird proposal thing. Yeah, I mean, that was set up to kill him now. So yeah, he was already going to get got by his own people. Yeah, I was going to say, I feel like that's because also we now also know that they were someone was complicit in getting in faking a Cassie's death and getting him out of there. So like there's a lot of information that we learn. It's died out, right? But there's like so much information that we learn at the end of Dark Age that's like thrown at us. And it's like, wait, stay tuned to see how that works out. So like the whole thing with Vol-Sung-Fa is really veiled. The fact that Cassie is alive is revealed. The betrayal of Lysander's parents is revealed. Like all this stuff is just like thrown at us at the end. It's like, I wonder what they're going to do about that. OK, bye. Bye. Also, our Darrow and Cassie is going to be on their own for the entirety of the next book. Or are they going to quickly reunite? Oh, I would I would be so happy for Darrow perspectives if that's what we do. Maybe Cassie has perspectives. I don't need that, but I'll take it. I would just prefer it to more Darrow, honestly. That's a Darrow haters. Darrow is not my fave. I don't hate him. I've read people I've hated more. He's fine. Does anyone feel bad about Dancer dying? Yeah, not as bad as Daxo. I mean, I feel bad because like it was I mean, probably less about Dancer specifically dying and more just the fact that it was that moment of we were actually going to do a thing and it was going to be useful and it was a good plan and no dead. Of course not. It's like the end of arcane, but I won't spoil that if you haven't seen it. So I've seen it, but I people watching might not have. It's been too long. They should watch it. If you do watch arcane and don't know anything, don't Google character names because you spoil the first three episodes. Yeah. But about Orion, did anybody care about Orion dying after genocide? I always liked her, but I didn't like what I was more sad about who she became at the end than what her death. Does that make sense? Yeah. Like how she was driven to cause such catastrophic losses. That was more sad to me than her actual death. Well, because Darrow like literally just turned her off. It's just like short circuit. How many of those does he have? What death counts? Well, no, like, you know, the things in people's brains turn off like an Apollonius and didn't work for Apollonius. So yeah. I think the death that hit me the hardest every time were that Daxo and Alexander. Yeah. I was really sad for. Oh, Ulysses. Yeah, but that feels like more like shock value. Yeah. It's like it's horrifying, but it's not like a character that I feel investment in and feel sad to see die. Yeah. Maybe it's because it's like sad for Victor. Yeah. But it's not sad for like the death of like the like the life act that actually was lost. It's sad for Victor. I feel the sad for Victor in that. Yeah, for sure. I think I think it's either if he never goes if he never does anything from that, then it was pure shock value of like what I can do and scare my readers. But what I'm thinking is going to happen in the next book and or the book after is when we when we learn that several knows about it, I think there's going to be like crazy shit that happens with several going on a rampage for killing his only son. And I would argue that stuff was done with it, though. Like, I mean, so here's the thing. At this point, we knew there was a red hand. We knew they were a mob. We knew people were unreasonable, but like there was like a feel like maybe almost a line and like, I don't know. I do think it really like showed me like, oh, these people are just really unhinged. Yeah. Well, all the stuff Luria witnesses outside of even Ulysses like Ulysses is like, again, a shocking visceral moment, but it's not really like worse than all the other stuff that they're doing, which is also horrible. All those women. And yeah, like, I think it was just one out of many atrocious things that community was doing to survive and validate their course. Yeah. The whole like sex slave, whatever thing that they're doing. I mean, they're definitely keeping several alive because if the Reaper is alive, the several is a really good pawn. Like, if you're if you're fighting against the sovereign, Victor, and and Darrow, having several in your possession is a really good chip. Yeah. I want a several POV. Oh, gosh, I wonder what that's to you, though, as I feel like it would kind of ruin it. I'm not going to be several POV. I'm not going to say it, but I already know what it would feel like to me. And you won't like to compare what it would be gross. Yeah. I did like the reuniting of several in Virginia. That was nice. In terms of moments when she sticks them on the duke of hands. Also, Virginia and Victor reuniting and reconciling. Yeah. Although it took her showing her battle scars for Victor to be like, OK, fine. Yeah. She was literally just like, Victor, stop it, like, look at, look at how many literal cuts I took. She's like, oh, come here, bring it in. Like, I didn't just like walk out of there like, sorry, several, hope you escape. Bye. She's like, no, little stab me many times. I do like that there was, you know, a process for the whole escape. And she's like, OK, Cavex is in charge. He can tell me if I should go in or not. Like, I think that's really important. Like, that's a smart thing. That's just another example of like, this was smart planning. Always the telemonus is coming in clutch. Yeah. Always have a telemonus. Thank God they have the telemonuses. If we ever have a betrayal in that house, we're screwed. Absolutely screwed. Well, there's very few of them left. Who's going to be left to betrace? It's just Sophocles. Sophocles in charge of the mission. Did the people do the mass suicide before Cassius showed up? I can't remember. I mean, that was the plan. But again, we don't know if it happened or not, though. Right. Like, we don't know because there was a telemonus there. And I know she was planning to, but I don't know if she did it before the rescue. I don't think she actually did. But if she did, that would be kind of a shitty way to end that character. It's not as sad as to accept. No, I think it's because it's off screen. Like, yeah, if we start the next book in life, it's her body. I'm going to be like, really? It's kind of disappointing. Also, what is the value of mercury again? What does it do? Nothing anymore. I'm just saying this was a way they killed the entire population of it. So I'm with Dancer. This was a waste of time. They wanted Arrakis, so they they obviously Mars is Arrakis. But I mean, whatever, the helium must flow. OK, but they had a literal desert combat scene. And that's where the mines I took place. Like it was Iraq. See, I always thought the the rim planets were more like Dune. They're all Dune. Everything is Dune. I mean, I don't know. I love the entire first part of it because of like the storm gods being a thing. Having also the way that no one knows about them, except Lysander, who's like, yeah, that's a thing. How are you surprised that this is a thing? Are you shocked that my grandmother was such a bitch? Yeah, right. But it's just like the vibe of Lysander being like, yeah, obviously. Like, of course, of course, you control the weather. Like you don't want to spawn tornadoes on people. I'm sorry, you're surprised my grandma didn't tell you about this. OK, I mean, to be honest, to play those politics games and if the golds are supposed to be so smart or whatever, I mean, it makes sense. They're really smart, but they're also like war mongering psychopaths. They send their kids to the Institute, like alarm bells. Which is still such an odd world building thing. The embers seek good things. Yeah, but that whole sequence of part one was one of my favorites. It was my favorite combat scene in the whole series so far. When Lysander's whole crew is just like depleted in the middle of the desert and Dero and them just rip through them without a thought. And like, they they literally do the like, like ear to the ground. Like, what's that thumping? And they're like, it's Drac and Yeagers. And they all come like howling out of the sand. It's the fact that they're called Drac and Yeagers. I know I love it. This is why the Pacific Rim soundtrack is the soundtrack of Red Rising. I just love it because like it's so it's corny, but it's amazing that like his army would come out of the dust, just howling and then just like tear through an army and just continue on with battle. Lysander's there getting his face melted off. It was great. And I think Matt brought it up earlier. I do like there was kind of a voice to maybe not check Dero, but to voice concerns or try and set boundaries. I forget. It's like a general who is like, you know, who was trying to make sure what happened with Orion didn't happen or stuff like that. You know, it's, you know, not screw face. It was, it was a general. I don't remember his name. He was only introduced for this book. He's at the beginning and he's just, he was the one who was set stationed on Mercury, like Mercury. And I think he was a red, maybe, I don't know. Matt, do you remember? But like, I do like that there was, even though several was gone, there was a voice around, yeah, started with an age. I don't remember. He's not a very important character, like, but he was just at least someone who was there being like, Hey, remember, you actually care about these people. So try and do this without killing everyone if we can. Yeah. So Dero's like, don't kill everyone. OK, let's recalculate. I had pretty sure he went with the kill everyone plan. So well, I just flood the city. So that was a little bit of a Ryan going off book. True. Yeah. The storm gods, like they overdelivered a little bit there. And then Alexander was like, I have to do this. It's like, no, you don't. I can't lose you. And then he. That's why, like, that's why Alexander's death also hurt so much more because you're like, he like did the thing where you were like, he probably should have died and somehow against all Ozzie survived only to then be just like killed, like horribly mutilated. He was missing all of his teeth. He was completely after he healed up and then just. And he dies, even though he's the type of gold Lysander wants, like Alexander is the definition of the type of gold that Lysander wants in the world. The type that Cassius would want. Well, I think that's also what Lysander wants. He just doesn't. He's like, you can tell he's learning in this book the how gold is not what he was trained to think it was. And since he's been so far removed, he has this idealized version. Yeah. How he really. But it's also like the way that Lysander, like, even if like his stated purpose and stated goals are like in some respects, like worthy or knowable, even if they're naive, it's like the tools you are using to get there, like, look at who you've allied yourself with. Like at one point, you idolized Darrow. You were raised by Cassius. You've met Alexander. These seem like much better people than the people that you are calling. You are friends and allies. So like, who are you fighting for? Yeah. And then like at the end, one of his last scenes is like having that lunch with Apollonius, which I'm sure that'll go great. Which why is he on Mercury? Why was Apollonius there? Wasn't he on Venus last week checked? I don't know. He just does his own thing. He likes watching more from the shadows. Yeah, exactly. They can fly now. They can fly now. I'm just saying, I don't know why you would want to be there as he was looking for Lysander. He needs the mind's eye. That's why he's not going to sit on Venus and chill like his brother was. Venus, you know, just runs itself. Exactly. Like quickly jumping back to like when it seems like Lilith is behind this like genius coup and they're like, Lilith is an idiot, though. There's no way. Oh, OK. It's Adria's. And then Adria's when he's like also this like little kid is like, I told you to blah, blah, blah. Like you are not following my orders. Like even like Adria's is a still a child who was raised by Lilith, groomed by Lilith and even little Adria's is like, you're so stupid. Like, oh, my God, I can't believe that this is what I have to work with. It is. I understand book reasons why they weren't just going to kill several. But in that moment, it's amazing. Severo didn't just get murdered because he's talking so much shit. He's like, oh, you're so disgusting. He's like, why are you back? Saying what we're all thinking. Yeah. And Adria's was a little extra with the giant wolf statue that was a furnace, just like burning howlers alive. It's like, all right. And he's like, yeah, I'm going to burn Lilith some day and she doesn't even understand irony. And so sad I'm wasted here. I like there's a different book I've read that has that type of contraption. And I just like every time I'm like, I hate these things. I hate these things. How do you feel about the pain ammonium chair and or whatever fridging his version of it is safe? That's what he threatened Severo with, right? The memory chair. Yeah. Yeah. And we know the chair was used on Lysander. I mean, it is. I mean, I don't think of all the torture devices. It makes it doesn't feel as gross to me. But I do think if it was me, it would be up there in terror because your memories are you, right? You're your definition of yourself like the terror. It represents a more existential terror, not like a like my fingers are going to get cut off and like it's more just like, yeah. Yeah, like, you know. And I mean, especially for Severo, I think Severo could handle a lot of physical torture without really being affected, but take away his daughters and his relationship to them like or turn him against Darrow so that he can go and kill Darrow. That's what's going to happen. You want to just talk about it? Cassius will end up with Virginia and why would that ever happen? Well, I don't know if Cassius Virginia's situation unless I get a romance novella on the side somewhere. It would make no sense. And this was a gigantic time jump in which Virginia would reunite her love for Cassius because she has a son with Darrow and it turns out Darrow will be dead and Pax needs a father and Cassius will have her dean himself. Time is going to have to pass for that to come to fruition. Not that much. Oh, six months. She's gonna be like, you'll do. I mean, she is like, I mean, I don't think it's gonna happen, but Virginia even mentions in this how like her type of love is not like that romantic type. It is very like, I mean, there there is, you know, an appreciation and stuff like that, but it's also very strategic for her. She does bring it up in this book, but also like she could just be single. I think she's fine. It would have been very strategic for her to be with Cassius. And I don't know if he's that strategic. I just don't like how giddy Leanna is. We don't know why Cassius is back. And if it offers the chance to like reunite the whole of like the society because we're going to like get everyone back, they literally sent him to save Darrow. OK, but when Darrow is dead, she's like, I'm sending you a package or whatever. Like, I know. But like the way that Cassius escaped in the first place, that means like he has like allies on the rim, which is like also like good for like to unite. If we get the rim united with like the society that we had before the jackals to get over, that's enough to overcome the jackal and possibly Volcing Faw. Yeah. I mean, if they were already OK to send Cassius back to Luna and then turn around and send him to Darrow. And if they think that Cassius might work to turn Lysander then towards them again as well, then then they can get Lysander back on and defeat the. Someone has faster than light travel we don't know about. And that's our mysterious ally. God, I hope not. It's just I mean, we haven't added aliens yet, except for the weird space Vikings, but they're not aliens. They're just weird evolution. We don't know what the fig is or maybe the fig is our faster than light travel source like that. Why would it be faster than light travel? Well, is this how you get places really fast? Like it takes so long to go between the asteroid belt. Like there are so if we're not going faster than light travel, these this just takes years. But did they say? Did they say how long it was supposed to have taken Cassius to get there? He would have taken a really long time from Jupiter. I mean, he took he showed up literally at the last possible second. So it was uncanny the timing. I'm just wondering how long of a trip it was. I wouldn't bother looking at realistic. I just want to know I just want to know right now what we could do if we could do it or if you want to fly by right now. It's 600 days. Obviously, they're probably better than us. So let's cut it in half. OK, I feel like it's got to be a lot faster than that. We really like you only can do so much propulsion and then you're just with inertia and your survival. Or you're just sci-fi and you're making it up. But see, Angela, helium three. It's helium things. Helium three could be used now as a power source. It doesn't make your engines go faster. Helium three. It doesn't fix this thing. And yet it was the rim and somebody who. Leigh Ann, I just watched you diss so many sci-fi concepts because they don't make sense. I need you to. Oh, I think the science part of Red Rising is really stupid. Again, I railed against the obsidian for a very long time. But I just think that they've been talking enough about aliens here and there throughout the series, just in passing. But enough that if an alien shows up and maybe the figs an alien, I don't know. But you know what I mean, like an alien. In what way, though, is like, I don't know what Pierce Brown is going to choose as a definition for that, but it could be an ally. You're talking about we need something to balance the scale. It would feel kind of random if in book six, they suddenly introduce an alien race. That's just like, oh, yeah, by the way, we're here now. Well, book five was meant to be the second to last book and we got space obsidian. So. But they're still obsidians. They're just like really hardcore into Viking culture. We even really learn about them till book four. And even then, like the idea that they are the way they are. It's wild. It's still not nearly as out there as aliens. Yeah. Unless the gold's created aliens. But in that case, again, it wouldn't be aliens. It would be carved creatures. And we've seen lots of carved creatures. Now, if you had a thing where like carved creatures, they've lost control of what and evolved elsewhere, kind of like we have with the space obsidians, where like you lost control of carved creatures that evolved on their own are kind of essentially aliens at that point. That's randomly heard fireworks. And I don't know who the hell is doing fireworks. They're celebrating Dark Age and Lightbringer. Exactly. And aliens. They're sending out a distress call. Yeah, we haven't had really much in terms of biological weapons. Not that we haven't had it at all, but not much. Except for whatever happened to the Senate. There is such a high level and everyone's immune system is protected to the nines. Well, what was the Senate? But also and also Sefi. And that's like what her hands were like rotting because of the bioweapon. That's why I said it's not that we haven't had any. But it hasn't been used in like warfare on a mass scale. It's been like, yeah, it's been more like covert political weapon. And I think it is because they have ways of making inoculations really fast, and that happens in like a lot of sci-fi books, where it's like, OK, well, you notice the thing, maybe it kills a couple hundred, but then you suddenly can inoculate the rest of your forces. So it's not usually worth the effort anymore because the response can be just as fast. So yeah, I don't think we have the time for true aliens, but I'm more just like, if it happens, I'll just like shrug and move on and accept it for what it is. It's not what I want. Yeah, I mean, they were going to essentially nuke Heliopolis, Heliopolis. They weren't going to nuke it, remember, because they were going to keep the architecture. So they were going to just they were going to gas it. OK, so we we haven't really talked about the Ephraim part very much, except to say space Vikings, space Vikings, space Vikings, Ephraim's dead. So like, I mean, he got a hole punched in his chest and then his heart. I'm not going to lie, his time with the obsidians was very boring to me. So that's probably why I have too many thoughts. I love like him teaching the obsidians how to like be more subtle and have poker faces. And like, I love him accidentally getting high and berserking his way through like a probably he should have died like combat situation. And they're like, it was kind of OK, first law reference. It kind of reminded me a little bit when like they're really impressed with him because they don't know that he was really high for it. And they're like, oh, he's like crazy and stuff. It kind of reminded me when the Northmen call West furious and they like make him that. Yeah. I think Ephraim's interaction with the kids is the greatest, though. Like his his POV is the best one. He's talking to Pax and Elektra. Also Pax and Elektra in general, I just like seeing them and we only see them through his perspective. So. Yeah. Yeah, I think I was just like. I don't think Pierce Brown's cultural world building is like so engaging for me that I felt like really immersed there. And I'm like, OK, I kind of get it. It's like, you know, like it was it's not what I would want if we're doing cultural exploration, which is what we're primarily doing for the first part until we get to the end. Yeah. I mean, I mean, like everything of like these like big obsidians who like, why would we ever learn subtler ways of doing things when we're just big and we win any fight automatically because of our bigness and Ephraim has to teach them to be like, OK, like I know you think it's like weak and like that it's beneath you to like not just muscle your way through something. But like, there are subtler, stronger, wiser, more effective ways of like getting what you want by like being devious, by being tricksy, by by pretending. And they're kind of like, hmm, hmm. Like, I like that part. Full sick of us, certainly not tricksy. It's a little tricksy kind of snuck up on the whole situation there at the end, like, I'm just going to eat you now. And then that's to create your body, because I'm literally a Viking. And I'm going to let you go, you know, and I'm not obviously like not now, because I know to like expect it. But the first time I read Dark Age, when Leria and Volgar on that ship and like it gets boarded and that's when you think you don't really know what this is. And like the alien. I know it felt that's what was like the one of the most like freaky parts of Dark Age, because I was like, I literally don't know what this is right now. Like, I don't know that this is an option for the Red Rising Universe. What is happening right now? What is this? What is happening? So you're like crawling on the walls and shit. I was like, what? And they can't like be killed unless they're beheaded. Space vampires. I mean, I I don't need a scientific explanation, but like I do wonder the whole vacuum solution that their evolution has come up. Does not. I don't understand what they've done, but cool. They got it. I just it's fine. It's so cool. It's cool enough. I don't care, but also cells don't work that way. Like, I don't know how you change them. Magic DNA. Don't think about it too much. I mean, I was reading, which is why it's fine. But if you make me think about it outside of reading the book, I'm like, yeah, no, lipids are still lipids. Carbon still carbon vacuum. I mean, like that also then goes for a lot of this stuff. With like how the goals are supposedly able to function. And you're like, I get that you're like genetically modified, but like there are limits. Well, this is more like for me, a physics thing. I'm like, oh, we're just changing the laws of physics now. Because I think sometimes biological things. I'm like, sure, I guess you unlocked a gene, whatever, Jurassic Park. Here, I'm just like, I like that you think that biology you can fuck with more than with physics. You're like, I don't know. It's probably because I'm a physics teacher. Well, actually, but even with my biology PhD, it's just like I feel like there's more flexibility there. But then there are just some things where I'm just like, no, when you're in vacuum, you want to fill the vacuum. There's no reason. There's nothing that tells me you wouldn't want to fill the vacuum. Like there's no scenario in which I could be like, what is an item? What is a piece of material? What is anything that doesn't want to do that? Whatever the obsidians have, they they found the thing. Exactly. Yeah. But again, I thought that again, it didn't bother me while I was reading, so it doesn't matter. Rule of cool is always fine. But I do think like, again, a lot of the way reasons that like, I don't really think about it that much in Red Rising is because he doesn't spend a ton of time trying to be like, so the reason this scientifically works is because of and explains this, like for like 10 pages, like the pseudo science of the Red Rising universe, he's more just like, it works. Trust me, it does battle. And I'm like, OK, sure. I'm glad you're not trying to convince me this, like, actually is supposed to work. Yeah. But yeah, I also do like the vulgar lyria relationship, how it starts with the letter, how lyria really doesn't want to trust Volga and how she tries to interpret everything Volga does. And we know Volga is a sweetheart, but like I'll go. It's adorable. Yeah. Volga is so precious. But also that that room was like a playroom for Electra. That's like the most humiliating, most like demoralizing, like you've tortured me for days. She's like, I pushed you in my child's playroom, you weakling. That is the actual tortures learning that. So demoralizing. I love Victor. I was so happy when Victor was on page again. I just love her so much. Physics has very little to do with space, but it's to be fair to people. I'm just that's just the one thing where I'm like, wow, that's really something no one who goes into space ever is just like, and they don't need to be in vacuum unless they're like octopus. That's the one thing is like, if you don't have a spine anymore, they allow it. Well, then there you go. They have an optional spine. They're like cats, you know, they're a liquid. Wait, what was I going to say? Oh, no, this is usually the part where, like, if I'm watching a movie like with my mom or my dad and all of a sudden, like, right now you're doing they're like, but how is that supposed to work? And I'm like, this is the part of the story you find unbelievable after all the stuff that we've seen for me. It's just the most uniquely over the line, wherever my line is. But it's fine. Like, I'm really OK with it. I swear. Everybody has a different line. It's like, I don't even think about that. I've paid no mind to that. Yeah. Oh, no. I mean, especially because we do have the scene, because, I mean, in previously, they do talk about what happens when you get spaced and red rising and the protocol you're supposed to go through. And you have Lyria actually trying to make sure her lungs don't explode and things like that. And it's like, yeah, this is what happens to a body in space. Is that not happening? Those bodies, they're built different. Oh, no. I mean, all these are really chad. Space Vikings terrifying. Yeah, that's yeah. They're my new readers. What new physics will we have in Lightbringer? But I don't know if there'll be new physics. I feel like they added all the classic sci-fi tropes at this point. All. We've had a lot. Like, I think the only thing we really haven't touched is because of the goals of versions of computers. We don't really have like that. I think they could be you have a lot of tech. Like, big is essentially. Yeah, but I mean, like even what? Red Rising Day or Golden Sundays, they were very like anti computers. They were scared of them because of what something happened in the past because this is down. Yes. But you know what I mean? Like. So, yeah. Well, everything's doing. Everything's doing the war with the machines. That's what's going to happen in Lightbringer. These like thousands of years ago, you find forces suddenly. Instead of fighting each other, we just have to all come together to fight some other big bad that just shows up over the army of Smiths. And I would not like that at all. They're going to find out in the next book that they're actually in the matrix, that's real. That's why the physics thing that was a glitch in the matrix. I mean, I'll take it. Um, Leanne, I haven't heard your favorite theory that makes what we did. You said it's the chair and several. That's the theory you have. Well, mainly my theory is a several skills, Darrow, one way or another. And I think the chair could be a reason. Mm hmm. Now, Leanne, this whole stupid shenanigans like her whole time has been that there is going to die most likely from several. And then Cassius is going to marry Virginia and I hate it. I mean, I do think no, I will leave. So here's the thing. There's two ways that Darrow could die, right? He could die as a part of the plot throughout it. But I just do think that by the time we get to the end of book four, there is a possibility of an epilogue where he dies. Like, I think he's going to die. If he was going to die, it wouldn't be in an epilogue unless it's. That's what I'm saying. Three years later, his eyes with his son packs at his side in bed and like that kind of. I mean, depending on if we haven't leaned on tried and true tropes in the series so far, depending on his capacity for further time jumps. I mean, I definitely think Darrow is not surviving the series. Like one way or another, several will kill. Yeah, but before you weren't saying it was because of the pandemonium chair. You were saying that he was going to have to like stop Darrow. Yeah, but I again, so like I just think that several will kill him. And I think that it would be more like narratively dramatic if several does it because of like this schism between them, where he thinks that like Darrow has gone too far and he blames Darrow for the death of his unborn child and is like so embittered by this, like that's like more like dramatically satisfying. But there is the option of the pandemonium chair where like several like is brainwashed and then like when he returns to himself, then he like regrets like killing Darrow. And also, so now he's going to do the stupid shit where he's basically brainwashed and kills him and then he snaps out of it. He's like, oh, what have I done? Not even snaps out of it, but that like because like Virginia knows how to use the pandemonium chair as well. But like once after he's killed Darrow, Virginia can like reset him or whatever, like get him back to normal. At which point, they'll have to tell him that Darrow is dead. I think Adreus could be dark enough to make several remember. Like I think he's done it, but like he would be like a waste of effort. Who depends on how mad we've made Adreus at that point in the story. Like Adreus would be busy doing others. Well, so do we know yet how like does the rest of the society know about Adreus yet? Nope. So like is one, would they even welcome him to their side? And if not, is he going to join like everybody else? We've already had an Adreus maybe joins our team arc. Well, what do you do at this point, though? Unless he's able to convince everyone that he should be in charge, like unless he takes over Luna and does something, it's like, well, he has taken over Luna at this point. But so is the society going to be like, Hey, Adreus is back somehow. Like he's one of us again. Or Adreus was planning to puppeteer behind stuff because he's still like 10. Right. He's like, yeah, he's a literal child. Yeah, which don't they have like speed up age stuff with their cloning? Like goodness. Matt was talking about the twist of the golds not being at the top. And I think that there's still enough time and potential for there to be a creator trope of some sort. Meaning that there's like an apex human or that like their version of history is false, right, to make them on top. And then how the society was actually created and came to be like maybe humans from the past that also went a separate way, come back and we learn the actual truth of what came to be here. So it's going to be the matrix. We're going to find the architect. Who wouldn't welcome foe Adreus to the team? He's only cute because he's a child. He's got his little like that you want to kind of punt across the room. Oh, yeah, this is also a good point. It would be like a blending of those two theories. Not that he's like fully like psycho from the chair, just that he's already like distressed and hatred of Darrow is amped by the chair. Yeah. Yeah. I think several the reason I don't buy that those one, I think several is going to get out of there. But also it's like. But it'll be too easy getting him out of there. And the reason is because he's been sleeper celled. But I think like for all the shit that they've been through, I think several will legitimately feel bad for not having gone with it. We're going to have the scene where it's Danny and John hugging, but then John like stabs her, but it'll be several. And then what? A car of dragon comes out and burns the chair. Like what's going to happen at the end of that scene? Maybe Virginia finally snaps and then Cassius reels her back. And she's several calls Darrow McQueen and he's like, what? I mean, several would call Darrow McQueen. So like. Lightbringer, just like Morningstar is like a biblical reference, right? I don't have I miss they've also mentioned Lightbringer like multiple times in the second, like to these last two books like by Sander has mentioned the Lightbringer at least twice in this book. And I don't know the context of it. Like there was a name attached to it, too. I forget the name because I was wondering what it could be, because like red gold, you can kind of see like that's something's coming out of the fire. And it's the blending of red and gold. I mean, that could be Darrow, that could be red God. It's red God or red God or yeah. But so that probably means Lysander might not win. Who knows? But you know, I say there's actually a word Darrow goes nuts because he's like bought his own myth and needs to be put down. I thought that was a whole plate of iron gold as he bought his own myth. I thought we were past that. Oh, run it back. Darrow's actually I mean, it could be legit that like, so in Lightbringer, several kills Darrow and red God is like Darrow's legacy because he's a God to his people as he's alive. He's going to be even more of a God to his people when he's dead. So you think he's dead and a Lightbringer? Lightbringer is Darrow's last book, is that what you're saying? Possibly, even. But if he's alive at the end of Lightbringer, it doesn't mean my theory is wrong. Oh, who has a good point, especially because of how Pax is received at the end of this point book. And he's like, technically not sigiled, but considers himself a red and stuff. Yeah. The red God, meaning Mars or Aries. But in this whole series, it's been about freaking Mars, which also I don't get why Mars is the center of the universe, but we've been going with it because of helium. Three, you know, Moon has a lot of that, too. Like right now, the moon has a lot of that because of helium. Yeah, but Darrow isn't from the moon. So also the moon is just like fancy pants. Aristotle and no one cares to look for the helium. And Mars is bigger. And Mars is bigger. True. True. No one's terraforming the moon, Angela. OK. Isn't Luna the moon? Shut up. I still remember when someone tweeted appears brown, but like there's like a scene where Mustang is on Luna and she's described as her face being moonlit. You mean they tweeted that appears brown appears brown, responded, oh, fuck. Yeah. And then someone else responded. Well, all light on Luna is moon light. And Darrow, no, sorry, not Darrow. Pierce Brown was like, yeah, that's what I meant. Just a little Earthlight. But here's the thing, like, yes, although technically not right, Earthlight would have really been jarring to read. Moonlight, everyone knew what that meant. No one was thinking about it until they were. Wait a minute. Because they're in the matrix. See, that's see. Everyone has dumb lines. I think mine about the vacuum makes more sense. What, then, Moonlight? Yeah. That's just a descriptor. An impossible descriptor. Well, it just means, you know, you got some light on you at night. That's what Moonlight means. That's not what Moonlight means. But my brain translates. So like when you're like indoors in a candle is the only thing lit and that's what's bathing your face in light. But it's nighttime, like the moonlight. Whatever. What? You say candle gives off moonlight? Well, apparently all nighttime light is moonlight, according to Angela. So candle also. I do very brief translations when I read. I'm just like, OK, so she's lit at night moving on. Like I don't think about it being the moon and stuff like that when I read the sentence. By. Yeah. I mean, the fact that so many of these tropes are in popular culture. I still can't believe people. That would be like the worst reveal. I'm not going to lie. We get to the like seventh book of this series and that's what happens. I will be that. I could see him using it. I could see him using some weight and what happens. I could see him using some kind of a simulation for some piece of it. That would be stupid. Well, we have the pandemonium chair. So like if a character like experiences a scene and then we find out that wasn't real because it was the pandemonium chair that like created this like entire scene. Like there has been in the chair the whole time. I mean, I don't think he would do something like that dumb. But I think like we could have a several perspective and we have this whole like scene with several and we think it's real. And then the next perspective is like Virginia and she's learned that they've put him in the chair and you're like, oh, no, that was real. Like he could do something like that. Yeah, I guess. Do we think Volga is going to like convince Volce like Vod and not be super space? She's sweet to be conniving or political in any way. So she's going to be like, you shouldn't be doing this, dad. He's going to shut up child. I assume she's going to try and kill him and somehow that still crosses past with Lyria and Lyria is like, oh, no, Volga is going to get herself killed because now I'm like super alien spy Lyria. Lyria is going to like Arya her way to killing the Night King. I mean, Bolson Faw as the fig. Bolson Faw is talking to Volga and all of a sudden Lyria is just like. Oh, yeah, Matt also brings up a point. We've only had Quicksilver on the sidelines for a lot of the series so far, like this portion of it. He truly, I mean, he's not real evil, but he is like, I don't love monopolies. Real evil to what? He also just like has a lot of resources. I feel like he's going to be involved in some way. I don't think he'll be like. And also, the big is connected to Quicksilver. That's where it was like stolen from. So it's obviously something there on the tech side of things. But like so when the fig was like telling her to go somewhere, right? Or like come home or something. So is she just going to follow that and it's going to be Quicksilver? Maybe. I mean, she's going to follow the coordinates that Pax helped her find because like originally she didn't even know where to go when the machine talked to her. And the coordinates are going where it's Earth, right? Or she's at least bearing Ephraim somewhere. And then she's going to Earth with Ephraim. But I don't know if that's the final destination. I wouldn't mind that because so much of this series is about like your purpose being, you know, about how you're made and stuff like that. It's been a big theme. I have to say, like, I know that like people like if people find it hard to like let go of beliefs, but it just still annoys me that like we have this whole thing where Darrow had to convince the obsidians with like one speech that actually the golds are not gods. They're just these people over here and the obsidians are like, ah, JK, we were tricked. Meanwhile, Darrow and all of his reds are like the veil. We believe in the veil. And it's like, brah, you just with one speech talked people out of their lifelong faith system. But you yourself, who know the veil was made up by the golds are like, I will see you in the veil. But it's like it's a comfort thing, right? Like the other one was like harmful for their society. Believing in the veil is like comfortable and, you know, it doesn't hurt. So like it's like that because like I agree, it would be hard to like go of that, which is why it's unbelievable that the obsidians after one speech should be like, oh, the golds aren't gods. Cool, I'm on board. It's like, no. To be fair, he did kind of show them literally they're not. Yeah, they're not as progressed as like they want them to be. Like and then you literally fell across gender lines. The minute they were told, oh, we don't want to listen to the old mother. We want to do all father seems fine to me power. That was kind of it was pretty funny. And he was like, oh, mother, what are you talking about? So and like, you know, to a large extent, religion being used for power and stuff like that is, you know, pretty standard. Well, I know. But that's why it's just so like, you know, that's why, again, it bothered me so much that one speech would like convince people. I hate in any book where like that's the thing where someone makes a grand speech and it suddenly like sways everyone's mind. So I'm just like, people are not swayed like that. But that was just a little trilogy. Grandstanding was like, that's just what Darrow did most of that series. So a lot of people in the series is in the veil. Does he? I don't know if Darrow does. Doesn't he have like a cut, like a thing where he's like, I don't even know if I believe in the veil anymore. It's that he's not like, and I'm so sad that I can't even rely on the veil anymore because it's BS. He's like, I'm not even so sure anymore about that veil that the gold's made up. I want to see that Darrow have it. He's like struggling hard, man. The number of people like one of the scenes that I remember from part one that sticks with me is when they're getting into the Yeagers or whatever and like they can't get the dome down in time. So people are just literally disintegrating off in like, and everyone's he does like basically the last speech of like, OK, everyone, hold on to your dirt and stuff. Like I was like, wow, this is canon. Sitting inside in dark. It's just very similar to the plot of the new Barbie. I haven't seen the Barbie movie yet. I think I know why that's being said. I haven't seen it either. But I think I know why based on a little line up. Just movies are so expensive where I live and in such shitty theaters. Yeah, wait. So so the obsidian, at least part of the obsidians know what the golds are up to. But Valsy Faw is like still talking about Valhalla. So like. I mean, like I said, I think Faw was I mean, whether he still is a plant or not was originally a plant from the fear night. Like he was a plant to the space obsidians who then came back to help the fear night do whatever with Sefi, who had the white. Well, the only white person we've met, the white logo, whatever. Oh, yeah, the like shaman or whatever. Yeah, like he knew Faw was coming off that that plane because it was all set up by the fear night a decade ago, presumably. Yeah. So like whether Faw is still in league with the fear night, who knows, but that's how it all started. Chances are, like, look at all this power I have screw that. But I mean, I feel like he is. But he's going to be like, hey, I'm in charge now because he doesn't seem like the kind of person that just be like, well, get back to the thing that they've learned, like they've learned time and time again when they think that they've like made an alliance with the obsidians or that the obsidians are going to like come in for them. Like even Sefi is like, no, I'm going to do my own thing. And you're like, dang it. So like, why would both things probably any different? Like you think that they're doing your bidding jokes on you? Yeah. And it's probably one of those things where it's like he was the worst thing to set off on a leash. Like at least Sefi had control. Sefi had aspirations that like aligned with society. They all dreamed of kind of, you know, but going back to the gold and not being on top, this isn't the same as a mastermaker like top tier theory. But like, we already know the obsidians are bigger and stronger than the golds. And that's why the golds had to like put them down into like fake Viking land, which is stupid. But anyway, like the fact that we have also fought back that like, we know the obsidians, you know, like a fight with the gold, like they are they are bigger. They're physically stronger. So like, maybe we they're not a real shot at obsidians being on top. Yeah, they've also made it very clear that golds are better fighters. But if that's like training, not like native ability. I mean, the golds are done for making obsidians much larger and scarier and extra hand fingers and all that. Yeah. But also just like deleted Ragnar. So they're pretty good at fighting. And Ragnar was really good. I felt I actually thought it was very in character that stuff he got so paranoid near the end, but I was really sad about it. Because there was so much that could have been like, maybe handled differently if she wasn't so paranoid. But it made sense. So yeah. She also did the same mistake that like Daito did in the rim. She was just like kill this one. And it was just like kind of one at a time and then two at a time, like Valkyrie jumping down to fight and then just getting killed. And then she finally does the dumb thing of like, all right, I'll fight him. Like clearly getting goaded into a fight you can't win. But whatever, let's go get blood eagle idiot. Just step down. You don't have to die. That blood eagling was certainly described with detail. He he really loved that episode of Vikings. You guys actually think there's any chance of Volga leading the obsidians in any capacity? No. I mean, her whole character would have to change. Like, I don't she would have to have like a complete 180 on her personality. He's been faking it this whole time. She's actually not sweet. She gets it. She's like, you forgot to change the Lorna Arcas. She's been playing the long game. I just feel so bad for her, because like Efrem was like her dad, uncle type thing, you know? I mean, she's clearly going to try to do something as I mean, she can't physically beat him. She's not going to have any allies wherever they go to like. What if there's a big two? There's a fake to fake to to fake too furious. Let Volga start her zoo. I need that in the epilogue. I need Volga to make it. I mean, once Pax is in charge of the whole society, he'll definitely fund that for her. Oh, we're not going to get that. That's what I want. Therefore, it cannot happen. Well, Pax running the society. Yeah, Pax inherits the society after literally everyone else dies, although it's supposed to be that they're supposed to take her reditary stuff out of it. So in theory, Pax should never be in line for it unless you ran. It's inevitable. Sure. It's because I wanted it won't happen. That's that's the math. OK, maybe Lyria is the red god. I thought about it. She's got big. That makes her pretty god like. Does it though? Like, do we have any idea what that's going to do for her? It's going to make her an advantage unstoppable. That's that's for sure. I mean, Lyria is interesting because she's at so many crossroads. So like her getting like a bigger role and where society goes would feel kind of satisfying. But I don't know if she's actually got like. But we still can have a training montage in the next book that bores me. So give it time. It's going to be of Cassius retraining Dara because he's got a sword through his chest. You have to learn how to fight again. I did like that moment when Dara and Lysander came at each other on the horses. That was pretty good. I say they're snuck that extra little sword in there. That was pretty good. But then, you know, Dara kept his seat. They both, you know. At least I said her knows that he didn't win because they're talking about he's like, I didn't beat him. That wasn't fair. I don't agree with like 90 percent of what Lysander thinks, but I at least appreciate that he doesn't have an absurd amount of arrogance and hubris. I mean, I'm relieved to hear that you're not swallowing the this Lysander Kool-Aid. Do people swallow it? No, guys, Lysander is right. Have you read Lysander's chapter? It's like, he's right. He's right if you're a psychopath. Gold supremacy. Yeah, he is correct. If you believe in hierarchies that are based off arbitrary metrics, if you believe the ruling class should stay the ruling class forever and keep everyone under their foot, sure. That's how it's meant to be. It's not his fault. It's just how it is. Facts don't care about your feelings because we designed it that way. Facts don't care about your feelings. Wow, Matt, you read Volgum Ephraim is romantic. No, sir. No, sir. Well, we already know that Ephraim was. What's his name? Ephraim was gay. Beyonce. Yeah. Like we've heard of Ephraim in the original trilogy. Ephraim was going to get married to Trig. Yeah, Ephraim wasn't Trig. Obviously mourning way too much to even get a side piece and iron gold. Canva's got a point. I'm waiting for I'm waiting for the top of society to be platinum. Also, like, here's the thing. Gold is a new color in the hierarchy appears out of nowhere. They're like, it's it's just been dusted over this whole time. They like unsurface it. It's like platinum. Well, like the tip of the pyramid is gold, but actually the very, very tip that you can't it's like too small to make out is actually flat. It's like it's like a diamond or something. It's like that thing in Ring and Power, when they just like magically revealed the like like keystone for the sword. They're just like, I've seen that before. It's right there. I am always fascinated of how much society I mean, obviously it's gold because our society has always, you know, appreciated gold and silver and gold above silver, but it's like such a soft metal and it's not actually useful until you have computers. It's not even that pretty when you get it raw out of the ground. It's like fine. It's shiny. It's not as shiny as other things. Diamond Diamond is the top. Shiny is the diamonds are at least really hard, either useful to that's why they're the top. So two things, Angela, dislikes about Pierce Browns, Red Rising, vacuums and gold. It does make it sound like you mean Hoover's and not like the vacuum of space, which I also really enjoy. She just dislikes vacuums, just all of them. OK, vacuums is a necessary evil with pets, but it is one of my least favorite chores. Like if you have a pet, you need to vacuum, but it's not fun. Yeah, but actually this won't be the top because it'd be too much of a weird stupid tech take. But graphene should be the top. It's the best semiconductor. Really good products. No, please never write a sci-fi series. That sounds terrible. I never would. I don't write it. I don't know. I don't have ideas. I don't have. Rise of the Teals. Here's a question. Are we getting a new POV and Lightbringer? Yeah. And who is it going to be? Probably Cassius. Savaro and Orcasius. Fine. What about Pax? If we have primarily the one male narrator, that makes me think we might have a few Lyria Virginia perspectives, but maybe none. Well, I don't think Pierce Brown wrote this for whatever narrator he's going to get. No, but like I think his publisher could have afforded more. And if it was just primarily like 80 percent male, they might have just picked the one male narrator they've been using. We won't know until we open it. I mean, it said Lightbringer says it's narrated by TGR, like it doesn't change. But it says that the like the hours is 13, which is not correct. The Libro FM has it at 40 hours and has the one narrator. And I checked a Reddit thing and it seems like Pierce Brown even said it's probably only the one narrator. I just I wonder why, like you went from a full cast. Well, that's what I'm saying. Maybe it's not as much of a full cast this time, or maybe it's mostly guys. But they still had a different guy wants TGR to voice all the women. And it's going to be terrible. It's going to be like Michael Kramer reading women's voices. Victra is so nauseating, because everything is terrible. But I guess we won't know until, you know, we get it. But no, yeah, Audible has it at 13 hours. And I'm like, that's laughably short for this book. Yeah. But no, Libro FM had it at like a more reasonable hour length was looking because I was trying to figure out if Audible is reasonable. You mean stupidly long, but more believable. Well, the issue with having an Ajax POV is like, I feel like it would be very one note. I don't want Atlantia. I don't want to be raging about Lysander and how much he hates them. It's just going to be so horny for Atlantia would be uncomfortable. Atlantia would be like a Cersei POV. It would be the horniest POV in the entire series. All right. Thirty hours and eight minutes with Tim Gerard, Ronald. Super exciting. Can we get Stephen Pacey to do it? I would take it's going to be one guy. I want Stephen Pacey. I can see him basically at least has voices. Yeah, I mean, I wasn't going to buy this audio book anyways. I'm willing to buy an e-book. I'm not willing to buy an audio book, so and I don't know when my library. I mean, I put holds on at my library, but like, let's be real, I'm not getting them right away. And you guys probably want to talk about this in August, so I should probably buy it. I've preordered a couple of copies of my bringer. Shocked, amused, one or two, maybe four. I, frankly, don't know how many from different reasons are there of this Waterstones, Goldsboro, Barnes and Noble, regular, and then I'm going to assigning. So that'll be. I like Barnes and Noble and then regular. They have exclusives of Barnes and Noble, but what's the difference? The Barnes and Noble one looks the same, isn't it? No, there's a Barnes and Noble exclusive edition. Sometimes they change the colors or they'll have an extra chapter or they'll have it signed or this is very off topic, but the new Sarah J. Mass book that's coming out has like six different editions. I'm angry about it. Not that I would buy it no matter what, but it's not as bad as the four different designs for the Ark of Empire of the vampire. No, this is like you have a different one for Indigo, Waterstone, Barnes and Noble, Books of Million and your own. Those are final copies of four different Ark designs. But these all have different stories. They all have different stories. OK, so the Barnes and Noble exclusive edition includes a mini full that poster featuring a portrait of Darrow in the Castle of Lorne. Also, Campbell is blue brings up a good point about Pegasus because we never really got a. Resolution on that pendant. Sure. I mean, the snake on Dark Age didn't really mean anything. No, the snake was Atlantis thing. OK, but like it wasn't really significant for the main. No, no, I mean, I think it was just like. But also pit vipers are the thing. I mean, I know. What was the feather on Iron Gold? The light bringer will be. That's what I'm saying. Like I'm not really reading too much into like what's like the little image on the cover because it's never really particularly Mustang. Obviously. OK. She's the light bringer. Yes. Maybe. And the Mustang is a kind of horse. What? It's also a type of car named after. No, it's actually going to be a flying car. They don't really have cars, do they? No, no, they have horses older. They have like chariots. But they have war chariots. Yes. Oh my God, I'm waiting for there to be like an actual gladiatorial combat thing for entertainment, not for like the Institute where they like actually have like low colors fight. I think we are past that point. I think that would have happened in Golden Sun if it was like Adalante. I might have like set up something like for the for their own. I hope we spend as little time with her as possible. She's absurd. I love I love this one person on Barnes and Noble's website that did the goodery saying of I'm ranking the book that I haven't read yet. It's literally in all caps. This best book and I haven't even read yet five stars. Pierce Brown once again delivers a stunning book and I haven't even witnessed its glory yet. You know, people are allowed to do what they want. People are dumb. I love it. I hope it was Pierce Brown that posted that. It's howler number 69. So is that a fan? And there's someone who enjoys certain types of jokes. All right. So who's going to die in Lightbringer? Daryl. Who else? Daryl is the obvious one. You think Victor is going to die? Maybe that's what makes several kill Daryl because Victor ends up dead. And he's like, first my child, then Victor, you're dead. But how would that be Daryl's fault? Daryl is not even going to be there because he's with Cassius on his little brochure. I know, but isn't Mustang and Victor going to try to help Daryl? Yeah, but I'm saying like if Daryl is not even part of it. I'm saying like in Virginia, there can be new events that like Daryl becomes responsible for Victor's death in the course of Lightbringer. And several learns that I. Yes, I do. Do you like is Daryl your least favorite character at this point? Yes. I mean, I was going to say other than Lysander, but like I enjoy reading Lysander's chapters, even if I hate Lysander. So like, yes, Lysander is a piece of shit, but he's really well written. Yeah, whereas Daryl is like not a piece of shit, but I don't know that he's not well written. He is kind of a piece of shit. He's like a genocidal maniac. True. But he's our genocidal maniac. I do get tired of like other perspectives, like whether they're pro Daryl or anti-Daryl, always finding an excuse to think about Daryl's amazingness to be like, oh, but, you know, Daryl, he's like such an amazing strata district. You don't want to see a Daryl on the battlefield because he's going to be so amazing and Lysander being like, oh, Daryl will of course be there and there he is. And he's so I'm just like, I'm like, yes, I get it. Daryl is like the shit. Wonderful. You know what I kind of wish like I I wish Electra got as much love on page as Pax does. I know so much about Pax. I know Electra likes hatchet face. Yeah, like I know so little and like, why aren't they given equal time? No clue. Well, because Pax is like just like Virginia said, she's raised to be an ally. He actually knows useful things. Electra is just like a chaos. Electra is a child several. We have no sense of what she does and doesn't know. She's just there. She is. She doesn't know anything. She is just a teenage POV of several like this. She's just a even several got more personality when we had barely any that's because we had Daryl's perspective. Well, we had Pax's perspective. We know a lot more about Electra because he hangs out with her a lot. I'm just saying that like I wish we got more Electra. It makes me feel like she's not going to be that important, which means she's probably going to be killed off for some sort of emotional beat. So they're going to fridge his child again. We already killed Lissy several's family literally just gets frigid all the time. OK, that's just what happens. It's just you Lissy is right now. Right. Well, his mom got fridged way back when before. That's not even yeah. Before the series even started. Yeah, way back when. I don't have any other theories, though. Just a lot of people are going to die. A lot of plans I want to have work out won't. I did hear Pierce Brown say something about Lightbringer is a book that like is about coming home and is about like hope and something like that. And I was like, damn it. I was going to be set up for there. There's no way he's not talking about Daryl when he says that. I'm cool with it. The Victor and Sever died together. That'd be interesting. I mean, so I guess like who. I know I said like what POVs you think we're going to get. But like who replaces Ephraim as like a main POV? Maybe just get more Virginia. Do you get somebody else? Isn't Pax going to be with her, though? Or Volga, maybe Volga. I feel like you have to do Volga, right? Or Volston, it becomes a POV. Wouldn't that be crazy? Everything is just in caps. Volga and Lyria end up in the same place. It's probably Volga. Yeah, I mean, because you have to split it up because you obviously have Lysander with a society. You would have to get Volga so you know what's going on in Faw. You're going to get Lyria. You're going to get potentially somebody that she runs into on Earth. Maybe we get like a what's a Quicksilver POV? I don't know. I don't think we get a Quicksilver POV. I think someone will talk to him like Lyria, probably. Lyria will meet him and talk to him. Get a little Adrius POV. Get a little Adrius POV. That'd be cool. Get in that tiny little mind. I mean, no one else is on that. Like no one else is there, right? That we have a POV. Unless we get a Severo POV. Yeah, which I think is 100% certainty. I just like don't want. I'm going to have Tim Gerard Reynolds reading a Severo POV. Jail. No, absolutely not. Do you want to reading a 10-year-old Adrius POV? It would still be better than Severo somehow. There's going to be some major convincing going on to get me on board with Adrius' clone plot arc. I feel like he's going to be a good guy. Because if he just comes back and he's the same Adrius that's evil and tries to murder everybody again, it's like, yeah, we did that already. Yeah, we'll see. Like I said, even if he's just a good, it has to be more than, oh, he has a redemption arc because his clone is not the same as him. I think it'll be very dependent on the execution, like most things, right? It's not a hot take. Oh, my god, if Virginia has to end up raising Adrius until he's an adult. Ew, so gross. Adrius impacts her friends. No. Brothers. Brothers. Brothers. Because that's what Adrius never had. He just had a brother. He had him killed. It was dad's fault. He didn't have him. Yeah, I mean, those. No, it was an actual brother. I know, I'm saying, but like it was it was Nero who like made Adrius insane, not wholly, but partly. Brokele and breath, you know? It's all so gross. Everything about him. Virginia uses the chair to give Adrius a clean slate. Interesting. I actually like that theory. That'd be nice. I'd take it. I don't know if it'd be nice. It's still kind of fucked up. Like I could see that happening. I mean, maybe not even Virginia. I feel like I feel like Virginia wouldn't be on board with that, but Dero might do something like that. For Dero, it would be like so much nicer than killing him in his head, because Dero's like. But he'd be like, I can't tell Virginia that I've done this. And then she kills Adrius because he thinks he's evil. He's like, no, I fixed him. I made him good again. And she'd be like, whoops. Here's the thing, Dero and Virginia don't talk. Like that's been true for all of these books so far. We never get to really see them be with each other. There's the occasional quiet moment that we know we need. At some point, they made packs together. So there's that. Yes, but that happens. They never made any other children. Yeah, they only had one kid. I guess that must have been a choice, but. I mean, while Severo and Victor are just like. How many did they have, like three or four? Many. Because we don't know the older sisters either. That's what I'm saying. Like we know that Severo has a family, but we really don't get any POVs over there. I mean, we don't. It's not really necessary. Well, I think it'd be more interesting than Mercury. I just don't like Mercury's like relevant to the plot, though, like just anything can be relevant to the plot when you're in charge of the plot. But like, what would Severo's kids like? The whole point is that they're just kids. Like, and Severo just like wants them to be kids. Fine. Is Electra the oldest? I think so, yeah, I think so. Because she's like around the same age as Pax. OK. Well, well. Is it giveaway winner and giveaway question time? Yeah. I think so. Well, we have three people that entered because people hate Sophocles apparently. I mean, I would enter if we were allowed. Who says you're not? I don't know, I just assumed it'd be weird. It would be weird, but apparently no one else is interested. I like Sophocles so much that I forgot his name for a really long time. All right, well, pick a number between one and three. Two. It is between one and three. It's correct. Well, it's the same person that has won every single other giveaway. Honestly, I'm really rooting for it at this point. Maybe that's why no one's entering because they're like, what's the fucking point? Same person again. What's our question for this one? What's our question for that one person to answer? I have a Leona monster. Oh, I have a Leona monster. That's not a one word answer. That's true. Who's Severo going to kill in the next two months? What theory does Leona want to see come to fruition? Want isn't the same as believing is true. That's still more than one word, guys. Severo going to kill Daryl. Daryl is the same. Yes, yeah, you just. Which character does Leona want to die? How about that? I do like Matt's answer to why is Leona a monster? What do you say? It just makes me correct. It's just only one of the most beloved sci-fi short fiction work authors. It's not my fault it was stupid. Which one is this? Stories of your life. Yeah, which has the story for the movie Arrival, which I was mad at the movie Arrival when I first saw it. So at least I'm consistent. Are you mad at Arrival? Because it's a really stupid premise. I've watched that movie like four times and I cry. I love that movie. My dad's seen it like probably a hundred times. Your dad and I have a very similar taste. My dad likes Starlight Archive. My dad loves Arrival. Next time your dad really likes a book, will you let me know? I think my dad's read all of Wheel of Time. I don't like Wheel of Time. That's I really can't get on board with it. My dad DNF'd Golden Sun. It is one of my lower ranked books. This is my lowest ranked one though, actually Dark Age, Jail. What are we going to do with you? I don't know. I'm just going to hope I like Lightbringer more. I'm just going to keep going. So yeah, his dad should start a booktube channel. Maybe that's the giveaway question, is what movie has my dad seen probably a hundred times? All right, that seems like a deep cut enough. Yeah, I wouldn't. I don't remember if people told you to try Exhalation. I don't think you should do Exhalation. Well, after having read Stories of Your Life, I don't intend to ever read anything by pitching again. So I read Exhalation Five Stars, but I only gave Story of Your Life that collection four. So I think one collection is stronger than the other. For me, in my case, I don't think the things that you cared about get alleviated. So I seriously doubt it. Yeah, since this was supposed to be the like religion and ideas and not tech, I'm like, well, yeah, let's not see the tech one. I do like the one that has the Neopets, though. Was that that wasn't in Stories of Your Life? OK, I was going to say, I do not remember a Neopets story. I would think I would remember that. No, no, no, they're called Digiants, but they're basically Neopets, and it's, I think, interesting. I never had a Neopet. What? I have a dead Neopet somewhere in the Internet. That Lupin has not eaten in decades. It's still probably going strong. I got a baby paintbrush for it. I will rise. If you really hope there's less desert, here's the thing. For some reason, someone decided that the most likely planet would be Desert Planet. And I don't know if that's even factually true. It's just what people have decided. It's because of Star Wars and Dune. Well, it's pretty popular. And like, I do think there's the whole idea that Earth is like such a rare occurrence of water. Like, water is not a common thing on planets. So what's the opposite of water desert? But I think we could be more interesting. Maybe it was also a water world is when it's all water. Yeah, the expanse made Mars habitable, but they live in a dome. Yeah, domes are really popular and a lot of hard sci-fi space operas. Yeah. I wouldn't call this a hard sci-fi space. Not at all. Well, the ones where they fight with swords and ride horses. No, they usually require spacesuits. They have spacesuits, but they also use swords and horses. While wearing the spacesuits, they have these just really weird, like monstrous armor. The other spacesuits, of course, they are. That's how they that's how we shot straight into other ships in the first series. That's how they do iron rains. It's just very different from the standard idea of a space suit because it's heavier than it should be, because, like, when people think about space travel, they have to think about how much weight you're putting on a ship and that does not count here. No, you just don't think about it. Just don't think about it. They're enjoying it. Obviously, we don't. And that's fine. That's just. I'm so glad that the Second Trilogy has not had a single mention of cheesecake. I was getting tired of cheesecake being brought up in the original trilogy. I think yours is my favorite dessert is cheesecake. There are several times people are eating cheesecake in the original trilogy. Interesting. I missed it because I always glaze over food scenes. They have to be well, every time food was mentioned in the original trilogy, it always yanked me out of the story because it felt like such like a super. It was like spaghetti and cheesecake. I was like, in the future, sci-fi like Mars World, we're having spaghetti and she we found Leanna's line. It's the food, apparently. Well, it's like, I can't like, I mean, yeah, they could be having cheesecake. I just wouldn't imagine that that's what they would have. But there's no reason they can't. But obviously, like Pierce Brown really likes cheesecake because it keeps coming up. And cheesecake is good. Yes, it is. It is. I mean, is it 90% cream cheese? Yes. It's like eight eggs and a ton of cream cheese. Like it's what it is. Sugar and graham graham graham graham graham graham. It's not even that much sugar. It's mostly cream cheese, like a cup of sugar and like four sticks of cream cheese. Like sticking a spoon in a tub of cream cheese and just eating it, I think most people will think it was gross, but cheesecake. Well, because then you have the graham cracker crumb. Sticking a graham cracker into a tub of cream cheese and just eating it. It has butter on it, too. Perfect, that makes it better. And if you have a New York style, the top layer is just sour cream. That's gross. I've always made it. I don't like that one as much as other ones, but. But you can do, though, is, yes. I would eat any cream, a cheesecake, your mother. Take a block of cream cheese, poor, raspberry, totally dressing over it and then use it with crackers and it's delicious. I thought you were saying that was how you made cheesecake. I was like, incorrect. Oreo cheesecakes are really fun to make. We honestly lost the point. Giveaway question number three. What dessert is mentioned with stupid frequency in the Red Rising books? I like that one. We'll do that. Okay, final answer, guys. Is it truly the giveaway question? What dessert is mentioned with alarming frequency in the Red Rising? Is it that alarming, though, like? With surprising frequency. How many times was it really mentioned? At least three. Through five books? More in three books. It was only in the trilogy. So what's a book? That's not bad. It's one word in three books. Come on. I don't think it was mentioned in the first book because they were in the Institute. No one was having cheesecake in the Institute. That's what you think. I mean, the proctor. Actually, no! The first mention of cheesecake is in the first book because when they go to Olympus and they go into one of the proctor's rooms, they have a plate of uneaten cheesecake that Darryl notices when he invades a link. What's the food that Aliana can't stop seeing when it's mentioned in Red Rising? Like product placement? I'm just like, why cheesecake? Darryl breaks it and he's like, oh, gotta finish that cheesecake. He really wanted to go to the cheesecake factory and just couldn't. The cheesecake factory is kind of worth it. Well, also when I think of the insane luxury that the golds are enjoying as the proctors, I picture grapes on the vine as like, because they're so Roman and stuff, that they're having wine and they're having figs and olives, but they're having cheesecake as they proctor in the Institute. I'm just like, is that the vibe? Where I'm from, because where I'm from, cheesecake was considered like a fancy dessert. From California. I mean, cheesecake is delicious, so. Awesome. He was born in Colorado. It was like the height of decadence that the top of society is like. It's better than a fricking French dessert. Are they also having Frito pie? No, but they probably have Chocotacos. You know what it does show, whether he intends it or not, that a lot of where we came from culturally with desserts was America, because cheesecake is one of the most American desserts that we had. Oh yeah. Only we would think to put that much cream cheese in a bowl. I mean, like that's kind of like how American salads are just like mayonnaise over potatoes. And now it's a salad. And you're like, is that how that works? Have you ever been to a bone fish? You ever had Bang Bang Shrimp? Like it's just mayonnaise and hot sauce. The red velvet cakes was literally just to sell red food coloring. Some people think it was a beet cake. It's like, no, that came later. Well, truly original red velvet is like a red cacao that's like really rare and expensive, but no one can get that kind of red cacao. So like they just put red food coloring in it. But like in the fifties, all of the domestic women making the red velvet. It was all the food coloring. No one's doing that now. I really like red velvet, but I just use box mixes because I'm lazy and it's usually pretty good. I like that when you make the box mix, it looks like blood and guts. Like before you bake it, just this like red, gloopy, blood red glue. Although the one time I did make it from scratch and I don't know if this was from the original recipe or if this was different, but it used buttermilk and I really liked it with the vinegariness of the buttermilk. That was slightly different. And on that note. That would have been worse than cheesecake. Well, thanks for joining us. And we're doing light bringer on Angela's chocolate. We can, I'm up next unless one of you guys really wants it. I just can't remember who we've done. Like what? Yeah, Iron Gold. Just keep going in order. It's fine. We're doing the last books in the series for reasons that are the last books. This is the last one we have. You just take our leaveings. It's not the last book. That's true. We'll have to circle back at Red God. Red God is. Gosh, I hope we only have to wait a year or two because if it's only a year or two, I don't have to reread. If it's like four years again, I have to reread. Just talk to Leanna. It'll be four years, but yeah. Leanna will recap it for you cheesecake. Did I order the action figure Kickstarter? Yes, I did. The what now? There was a Kickstarter for a Darrow action figure. Thanks. And then they added on, like one of the like unlocked stretch goals was like the bronze version. Did I order that too? I did not order it. No, I'm happy for you. You should definitely have these things. I see. Then the bronze statue can stand among all of the gold books. All right. Well, truly on that note, have a good night everybody and we'll see you very soon for a light bringer. Sometime in a comfortable. Sorry, Matt's comments. I could get like a Barbie accessory cheesecake to go with it. You should get Darrow a Ken outfit. Never. All right. Yeah. So sometime in August, we shall be reconvening for light bringer. How do you even know that it's Darrow? He has a mask on. He's in a suit. Because I believe in advertising. Okay. On that note. Bye.