 Good afternoon, everyone. This is Susan from Alive Times, and I want to welcome you to Connecting to Collections, our chat today on the topic of data logging. And I'm going to turn this right over to Elsa Huxley to make the introductions. Elsa? OK, thanks, Susan. Hello, everyone, welcome. I'm Elsa Huxley from Heritage Preservation, and we're so glad you're joining us today. I'm just going to give a brief introduction to the community and to these events, and then we'll get started. Heritage Preservation is moderating the Connecting to Collections online community in cooperation with the American Association for State and Local History and with funding from the Institute of Museum and Library Services. The site is designed and produced by Learning Times. The goal of the online community is to help smaller museums, libraries, archives, and historical societies quickly locate reliable preservation resources and network with their colleagues. In developing the community, we've drawn on many resources that were developed for the Connecting to Collections initiative, including the bookshelf and the raising of our workshops and webinars. And links to those resources are filed under the topics menu on the site. We'll also file a recording of today's webinar there. And there's a spot on the site there where you can continue these conversations in the group discussion boards. About twice a month, the Connecting to Collections online community features a particularly helpful preservation resource and hosts a webinar related to it. The resources we posted for today's webinar can be accessed by clicking this photo on the web page. And the resource for today is Conservatgram 33, which Rachel Erin Stein, who is our featured guest today, was the author of. So I'm pleased to welcome her today. And Rachel, would you like to tell us a little bit about yourself? Sure. Hello, everybody. Thank you for coming, joining us. And I'm excited that this Conservatgram is up online now, because hopefully it will mean that I can point people to this and not have to send out the sort of in-process copies that I've been working on for a long time. Let me tell you a little bit about me and how I got involved in data logging and producing this Conservatgram, which I should mention up at the top, was also done with my colleague, Samantha Alderson, who is a conservator at the American Museum of Natural History. And without her, I wouldn't have been able to complete this. So I am grateful for her assistance. Around, let's see, it was over 12 years ago now, I was working at the American Museum of Natural History. And the environmental monitoring and data logging was sort of put onto my plate. And we had been using a couple of different products, one of which had sort of failed spectacularly in the previous year. And I had been assigned to figure out what new products we should start investing in. And I wound up contacting a number of vendors. And several of them volunteered to send me a demo product. And I realized at a certain point, I was sitting there with a desk full of different data loggers and thought it would be a wasted opportunity to use these, test them out, and send them back without doing something a little bit more useful with the information that I then had. And so that led to the first version of this conservatgram. And just with any technology products, they get out of date very quickly. And it was sort of interesting several years later when I was approached by Park Service to update the conservatgram to sort of see which hanging around and which had disappeared from the market. And there were certain things that have really changed the landscape of data logging, which made actually producing this updated version a little bit more challenging. The first thing is that there's a huge number of data logging products on the market now. And well, that's in some ways sort of exciting, because it means that you have a lot of different options. In practice, what it means for us, for our sort of collections care community, is that it's overwhelming. We don't want to be the techie people. We have other things on our plate. And so we want to know that if we're spending money, even small amounts, which for some of us is actually a large part of our collection care budget, especially if you start getting into some of the higher end products, that you're making a smart decision. So there's a lot more choice out there. The other thing is that when I first started doing this, a lot of them were sold directly by the companies who made and manufactured them. And now there's a number of distributors. And they're sort of this middle man. And so trying to get information can sometimes be complicated, because you're not sure. Am I dealing with the distributor who may or may not know the product really well, who may or may not understand our industry? So when we approached the update for the ConservatGram, basically, I put a message out to a number of the different collections, care, preservation, and conservation museum listservs and asked what people were using. And then I got a lot of responses actually from worldwide and then really focused in at this point on the things that were being used in North America and the US and Canada, because this was a product for the Park Service. So there are other things that you'll hear if you have European colleagues that are out there. And some of them are not available here in the US. After that, we took a look to see how prevalent some of these products were and whether we could get our hands on one. And then the next thing that we did was consult a number of people who are working in the field at these various companies and ask them what they thought, given their familiarity with our needs, what were some products that we may not be using yet that we should keep our eye on or know about. So the list that's on the ConservatGram now contains the things that are most commonly used in our field, as well as some products that probably are not so widely used, but are examples of the kinds of things that you're going to see out there. So it's clear that the list would have been way too long to examine everything. And so what we tried to do is come up with a couple of examples of different kinds of bloggers that would allow you to see what these products can do and evaluate them as their type. The text that goes along with the data logger article is meant to give you the questions that you should be asking yourself first before you even start to look at products and then ways to evaluate the product. So hopefully that text, even when the actual list of bloggers is out of date, the text would hopefully still prove useful. One of the things that I have to say drives me a little bit crazy is when I'm on the various preservation listservs and someone will come on and they will say, I need to buy some new data loggers to do some environmental monitoring. Can people tell me what they're using? Tell me what you like. Are you happy with it? And generally, that kind of query will elicit the same number of names that crop up. And all of those, I believe, are included in the Conservatgram. But I really feel that that's sort of a backwards way of addressing the problem. The inquirer isn't giving information to their colleagues on what their budget is, how many monitoring points they need, what their degree of technical expertise is. And so it's not necessarily a useful way of matching up a product for a particular need. And so that's really what I'd like us to sort of go through this morning. So Elsa, are you able to pull over some of the polls just so we can start to get an idea of what people are using? Here's our first poll to find out where you're joining us from. And then we have some more specific questions about what you're using now. And while Elsa's pulling those over, I'm going to look through a few of the people who are asking some questions about actual temperature and humidity fluctuations in galleries. And let's come back to that a little bit later. So we'll do these. And then I have one more to pull over. But let's see. OK, most people are joining us today from a library. And let's say the majority are currently monitoring their environment with, it looks like most of them are standalone data loggers. That's 83%. Here we go. Make sure everybody can see that, 87%. 90, OK. Is that what you would have expected to have seen? I'm actually not sure that I would have expected the number to be so high. But I'm sort of pleased with that. Great. Do you occasionally check the calibration of your equipment? Annually is 10%, 37% about, so yes, occasionally, or sporadically, and 53% do not. And let me pull up one more poll. And then I also have a door prize question or two that I'd like to bring up. The door prize is that we give out our books from the Connecting the Collections bookshelf. Sorry about that. OK, poll number five. Do you have climate-controlled spaces in your institution? Yes, throughout? Yes, in some spaces? Or no? And here's our first door prize question. And if you can just fill in a narrative response here afterwards we go through and here at Heritage Preservation we randomly pick someone that's responded and then I get in touch with you later through email and let you know that you've gotten the book, find out which one you'd like. So our first one is, do you have a preferred brand of logger? And our second question there is, how many spaces do you need to monitor? And Rachel, while they're answering that, maybe we could talk about this last poll. Look, so about an even split of the climate-controlled spaces, whether they're throughout the entire institution or just in some spaces. And so that's going to be, I think, something that people need to really think carefully about when they're picking equipment. If you have no ability to control or modify the environment in your space, you still will probably want to have that data. You'll want to know what's going on so that you can anticipate the needs of your collection so that if you intend to put climate control in that space down the road, you can have an idea of what the issues may be as you drastically change the environment for the material stored in there. But I think one of the questions that I feel very frequently is people come to me and they're asking, they're really interested in the real-time monitoring and wireless or hard-wired systems that will allow them real-time access to their data. And if you have no ability to actually affect change in that environment, you have to think very carefully about whether the cost of that kind of system is going to be worth it for you. And so I should say that I'm happy a little bit later to touch on wireless and other sort of network systems. This data logger, just for this conservogram, for reasons of sort of space, mostly focuses on what we're calling standalone data logger. So these are ones that are sort of battery-powered units that function independently. And you can be using any number of them, but they're not communicating with each other or communicating back to any central point. So let's sort of just scroll through here. Let's see. So there's a lot of PEM2s, the Hobo products, some VRs. This is all sort of pretty much what we expect to see. OK. And what about how many spaces they need to monitor? It really varies. Yeah. Let's see. So we've got 1, 5, 15. I saw 25 somewhere. Yeah, a couple with 20, 15 plus, at least 20 galleries. So here, Carl Stewart in Boulder, Colorado, has got 30 campus-wide of a 15-in-wide building. So I think, oh, 52. Carrie in Philadelphia is the winner. Under an extra door prize, Carrie. OK. I think she might deserve a door prize. Yep, I think she does. I'm honored to be getting it. So this is something that we'll sort of talk around because I think the kind of product that you might choose if you're dealing with only a few spaces would be very different than if you're looking at a large number of spaces. And managing just that amount of data can bring a number of different challenges. So OK, why don't we pull up the PowerPoint? OK. And sort of jump into things. There we go. Let me take over that. Given what we've learned from the polls about our audience, I don't need to spend a whole lot of time on this. For the most part, it seems like this group is very familiar with what a data logger is. And that's great and certainly very different than the landscape and the cultural preservation community sort of within the last 10 years. But just very quickly, a data logger, in this case, it's generally a battery-powered device, although some of them can also be hardwired into a power source. They have a sensor, which is, or in some cases, multiple sensors, to sense what they are actually monitoring. And then a microprocessor, which is what allows them to store the information and communicate with your computer. So a data logger shouldn't be confused with some of these really simple little digital hygrometers, which are things that sometimes you can pick up at Radio Shack for $10, $12, $20 each. And sometimes we'll record a high and low that it senses, but it has no ability to communicate and do much more with your data. So while there are still a number of institutions that answer that they're using hygrothermographs, and those are workhorses that if you pick care of them properly will function really well, in this day and age, if you're investing in any equipment, I can't see why you would want to buy a hygrothermograph, because ultimately, the point isn't to monitor for monitoring sake. You want the data, and you want enhanced ability to evaluate your data. And that's greatly facilitated by your computer and the use of the analytical tools that most of these programs come with. So I'm going to just throw this cost issue out first, because I've found that most people before they even start to evaluate equipment have some idea of their budget line. And so whether this is a new expenditure or you're trying to update products as you go along, or you're buying things on an exhibit budget, I think if you don't start with this, you're in trouble, because it's hard to fall in love with a great product and realize, well, I simply can't afford that. So the logger that we evaluated, Samantha and I, for the Conserver Grant range and price at the time when we did our final price check at the end of last year, from $68 to $740. That's a huge range. All of these products that are listed there are viable options for logging, but what we shouldn't confuse is something that's a viable option from whether these things all do the same work. So there are a few products that were surprisingly good at the lower end of the spectrum. And there were a couple that I'm not sure maybe why you would necessarily want to invest in a higher end product unless you had a specific reason, when there are those reasons. But I think the biggest problem happens when people expect their inexpensive logger to be doing the same kind of thing as the higher end logger. So you shouldn't feel that if you have a slim budget and that you have to, for whatever reason, you need to monitor a lot of points and you need to spread your budget and that forces you towards the more inexpensive products that that's a bad thing. But you should also then be very aware that there's going to be a trade-off. And when we talk about cost also on the Conserver Grant, we split that up. So we have the actual unit cost, which is one thing. And then some of these products also have what we were calling the ancillary cost for things like the software or the cable, whether you need a flash drive or something to work with the system. The other thing is that over the lifetime of the logger, you may want to consider the calibration cost. And so that can be worked into the equation. So let's just quickly run through some of these hardware specifications. The reason why this Conserver Grant arose 12 years ago is because I found it hard to evaluate the different spec sheets from the manufacturers, each of them whose slightly different terminology. And so what we tried to do in this table was to pull everything in and standardize it so that you really could look at things across the table and know that you were looking at the same data. So operating range is determined by the sensor type and quality. And not all of the products, some of them use the same sensors that are purchased from a manufacturer. But that certainly will play into how high they can go, how low they can go, and how sensitive they are. All of the loggers listed here will adequately cover the range that we expect to find in a cultural heritage institution. But if you know that you're going to be using your logger in a high humidity environment for an extended period, if you are looking to get outside environmental data, there's some other products that are outside of this Conserver Grant that are worth infastigating. There are a couple of products that don't function quite as well on the really low end of the spectrum. And I'll talk about those in a little bit. But accuracy is another thing that people tend to be, I think, sometimes overly concerned with. All of the loggers listed here are highly accurate on their temperature range. And they have a wider plus or minus range on the relative humidity side. And I think for most of us, the accuracy that these products come with, the sort of 3% in us, is fine. And we don't need to be overly concerned. This is especially true if you have no ability to change in your environment. Because then it's not a question of, are you monitoring? Are you maintaining your set points properly? So I think in terms of operating range and accuracy, we can be very confident that the products that are available to us are more than sufficient. Calibration is something just to understand what the manufacturers are talking about. There's calibration to sort of national standards. And that's something that if we were working in the food industry or pharmaceuticals would be a concern to us. But for our purposes, we just want to know that if it says that it's 65% relative humidity, that it is 65% relative humidity. And so I think the problem that happens very often is that people buy these products and they have them out. And three years later, they're wondering why their loggers may not agree with each other or why their data seems to have drifted. And that's natural. All of these RH sensors will drift over time. Some of them will drift faster than others. And ironically, this is something where the higher end sensors sometimes will drift faster than the lower end sensors. So this is an area where you need to pay attention to the manufacturer's specs. If they say that the calibration should be checked every six months, that's sort of a sign of the sensitivity of the product. The other thing to pay attention to is this idea of how many points the calibration has. Some of these, when they say sort of a one point calibration, they're checking it at ambient temperature and a mid-range relative humidity. So your plus and minus range is based on that mid-range. If they're doing a two or three point calibration, they're checking the accuracy of the logger, probably at the high end of the spectrum and the low end. So for instance, they would check it at maybe 50% RH, also at 65% RH. And then maybe at the lower end at 35% relative humidity. And so you should have more confidence in a three point calibration that it's going to be within either plus or minus three or plus or minus five along that whole range. So if you have a logger that only has a one point calibration and you're getting 20% RH and it's sort of 5%, that may still be within the manufacturer's spec. So it's not that the unit is not functioning properly. That's what it's capable of doing. And so if you know that you're in the Southwest and your environment is really dry, this is the kind of thing that you would want to look at the calibration and sort of see, are they only calibrating this to be accurate at the mid to high range? Or are they guaranteeing that it's going to be accurate for me at the lower ranges, 20% down into the teens? So that's where you need to be aware of your environment and a little bit, which if this is your first day of the environmental monitoring equipment can be hard, but most people have an idea of sort of how their overall environment is. So that's a factor in the calibration. One of the resources that is going to be linked up to this presentation, and Elsa can pull over just so everybody can get a glimpse of it, is that Samantha and I did a little cheat sheet on how to check the calibration of your units using soluble salt solutions. All right. And this is something that's relatively inexpensive to do. The sheet sort of walks you through the materials that you would need, the three salts that we recommend and how with a little bit of Gore-Tex and a few Tupperware containers, you can set up these chambers that will allow you to evaluate how your products are functioning. And this is something that we recommend that when you're buying a batch of new equipment, you sort of do before you even place them out in your institution so that you can ensure that you received products that came from the manufacturers the way they should be. And certainly if you can't do it on an annual basis to do it any time, you have to sort of relaunch or replace the logger in a new location. And one of the things that's also changed in sort of the lifetime, since the last time we did the Conservagram, is that some of these products now are considered sort of disposable. A few of them, like the log tag on the list, don't have a user replaceable battery. So when those go out of calibration, we're in this disposable culture. They sort of say, don't send it back to us. It's throw it away and for $70, you just buy a new one. That the cost of replacing a sensor and replacing a battery is actually too high and you're better off just buying a new product. I'll pull that away now. So this brings us back to battery life. There are a few products on the list that I think are more appropriate for special projects rather than long-term monitoring. If you're doing sort of general collection environment monitoring, I think having a battery that lasts less than one year is just as unnecessary work for you. So a lot of the batteries should last one year with a moderate sampling rate. And this is another thing that the spec sheets were all missing a very different on. But a few of them, like the PM2 that many of you are using, have a 10-year battery life. And I think for many people, they want to know that one year may still be too short. One thing that we don't need to worry about now that we did need to pay attention to years ago was that even if your battery runs out, your data isn't going to go anywhere and disappear. So that's been an improvement in the product so for the years. Memory capacity and run time is something to pay attention to. Again, depending on whether you're going to be doing a special project like you're monitoring in a special exhibits gallery or to evaluate a new HVAC system that's coming online or as opposed to general trend monitoring in your spaces. And so what we tried to do in the Conservatgram was say, OK, if all of these products are launched for 15 minutes, how long are you actually going to get out of them? Some of the data loggers allow you to choose anywhere from a couple of seconds up to taking a reading every 24 hours. Some of them give you several options within that range. Each one of them has more than enough choices. But for general trend monitoring, I think most people seem to be recommending no more frequently than every 20 minutes. And probably 30 minutes is more than sufficient. If you're monitoring more frequently than every 20 or 30 minutes, you're going to wind up over time with just an awful lot of data. And that just may not be necessary in terms of your work and memory. That wouldn't be the case if you're trying to figure out what's going on with an HVAC system that isn't holding its set points or things like that. Then you might want to go down to something like every five minutes. But for general trend monitoring, you'll probably want to stick with somewhere around every half hour. Interestingly, the PEM2 is the only product on the list that does not allow you to set the monitoring rate. And that's because that product, thanks, Elsa, for making me want to pull over the picture of that, is really intended for general trend monitoring. And so they don't give you the option. So all of these have a little penny in there for evaluation. So that's the PEM2. Are there any other of those photos you want me to show now, or should I? Not yet, let's see. So the memory capacity, the runtime, the sampling rate, all three of these really work together. If you're taking a sample every five minutes, you're going to be burning through your memory much faster. And then, I think, let's see on our next slide, there's a data, the Conservagram talks a little bit about the start-stop options. And whether you launch these things, the product immediately, some of them have options for a delayed start, or like a trigger or push button. You may want to pay attention to this depending on where you put your logger and how easy or difficult it is to access. And that can factor into your decision making. Alerts and alarms, the next few items that we looked at for hardware specification are get into some of the special features. And so alerts and alarms are whether the product has, like the PM2 does, a LCD display. And then some of the other products have like little LED lights. So Elsa, if you want to pull over the picture of the Hobo U14, and then maybe also the last car and the log tag. Is this the right Hobo one? That one's fine. You see here, this is three of the Hobos that were evaluated. The U10 is on the right, the smallest one, the U12, which is the standard product line now. And the U14 is the one on the left with the display. And it was a log tag you wanted? I think you can find the log tag and the last car. So the log tag here, this image is showing you the logger, which is actually just the little blue and white card piece. And then what you're seeing, the gray piece of the cord is actually how you, is the base that you would pop the logger into and connect to your computer. So the piece that you would be putting out for monitoring is this little sort of slightly bigger than a credit card. But you'll see that in the center there, there's two little lights. And those have various combinations of flashing to let you know that it's working or whether it's exceeded alarm conditions. And I think if, can you find the last car one? Is there another name that I would have to be called Easy Log? No, I've got Smart Reader. I have two that are just numbers, TR74U and TDRTR. No, this is different. OK, I need to, I'm sorry, I don't think I have that one. OK, that's fine. Catherine has a question. Are these data loggers MAC compatible? Let me come back to that, because we're going to finish this up and go into some of the software things. And we will discuss that there. So the thing to be aware of these alerts and alarms is that they can be tremendously useful if you're placing your loggers out in locations where you actually will see them. Because these products are not networked or sending their information, they're storing the information until you come and download them, you have to actually sort of pass by them. So it's just one of these things that having the LCD so that you can sort of see what your current reading is can be very useful if it's going to be in a place where you actually can check it. If you're looking at putting things in storage rooms where people aren't visiting frequently, it may not be worth the corresponding trade-offs. In price and battery life for that extra feature. So just something to pay attention when you're trying to stretch your monitoring dollars. That maybe you can have something like the Hobo U14 in places where you have people working and checking. And the U12 in places that you're not going to be interested in sort of doing a walkthrough on a daily or weekly basis. The alarms and alerts though are useful in that some of them will flash if they've exceeded alarm sort of your target conditions. And so you know that you should go in and download them. So the alarms, alerts, and the display sort of all work together in terms of providing you information to notify you that there's something that you want to pay attention to. And I can see that Catherine asked about the max and Tim did say that that the Hobo is compatible and that's true. But we'll come back to some of the other options in a minute. So the probe, Elsa, can you pull over the T and D? Do you have the T and D74 UI? Sounds about your hold on one second. It's just being slow opening. And while you're there, if you want to pull over the tiny tag image here's the tiny tag one. While we're waiting for the other one, I'll just jump ahead to the last category with sort of the size, appearance, and construction. Most of the use are sort of smaller than a bread box. Generally will fit in the palm of your hand. A few are sort of cell phone size and a couple of them, like the PEMs are a little bit larger. The tiny tags are interesting because years ago they had sort of an innocuous beige color. And now the models that are coming out now are sort of brightly colored. So it's unfortunate for us to not be using a really good product because it's bright blue. But for some people who are working in institutions which have maybe exhibit designers or curators with strongly held aesthetic opinions, this is just something to be aware of. Some of these products you can paint off over the face and do something to make them a little less obtrusive if necessary. But it is just something to be aware of just that when you're working with your colleagues sometimes the ability to even put a monitor in a space can depend on how offensive or inoffensive they find the appearance. But the big thing with size, appearance, and construction gets down to some of these products are really small, which is great. They're very easy to hide. But it also can make them more difficult to secure in place. And nobody wants to spend even $70 on a piece of equipment if it's going to wander away over time. I've worked with institutions where I've been surprised. We thought that they were well hidden. They were behind or up high. But they weren't actually physically secured with some sort of bracket or locking device. And equipment has walked off. So it is something to pay attention to the placement of your equipment and securing it in a way that doesn't make it really frustrating for you to download it on a regular basis. But yet, we'll make you feel secure that when you go back a month later to check on it, it will still be there. The T&D product here is just giving you an example of how the probes work. The T&D actually only works with these external probes. The probes are at the end of the black one is a light sensor, and the white one is the temperature relative humidity sensor. A couple of the other products like the Hobo and the HDR also have probes. And the thing that's really nice about the probes is that it can allow you to snake that into an inaccessible space, like a tightly sealed diorama or exhibition case, and snake the logger part outside to some place where you will be able to have easier access for downloading. So again, some of these products like the ACR and the T&D, which are more expensive. This kind of feature would be worth paying the price if you need a feature like that. OK, let's move on to some of the software issues. Because the fact is that on the hardware front, all of these products are appropriate. And so it's a question of which bells and whistles will be necessary for you. And on the data retrieval part, even a really good product can be rendered totally unappealing by bad software. And there were a couple of products that we sort of took a quick look at and didn't include because there was just no reason. There were other things that we felt were easier for our kind of audience. So the first thing just to pay attention to are things like the software platform compatibility. So there aren't that many options for the Mac users, unfortunately. And if you are on older Windows platforms, you'll want to pay attention to that as well. What is interesting, though, that has sort of changed in the data logger landscape is that a number of the newer products, you need their software to be able to pull the data off the data logger. But in fact, after that, they don't give you a whole lot of options of what you do with your data in their software because they expect that people will be pulling the data out and importing it into a spreadsheet program like Excel. In my work, I found that most of our colleagues are really good with words, you know, editing. They're sometimes good with image software, like Photoshop or Picasso. But Excel is still sometimes a little bit intimidating. So it's one thing that you want to pay attention to. Does the software allow you full functionality and capability? Or are they sort of expecting that you're going to take a quick load and do all your analysis in something like Excel? And so the reason why this is relevant is that for some of the Mac users, you still don't need to be able to have the software on your computer to even get the data off. So that really does limit your choices. To effectively, I think, looking at it quickly again, that the Hobos, the PEMs are fine because there isn't actually any software on your computer. And I think that's it, although a couple of them have sort of said that they're working on it. The last car is the Easy Log that I showed you earlier. You can transfer the data to a Mac if you use their portable data pad for downloading. So that does give you a third option. But if you're on a Mac, I think you're pretty much safer sticking to the PEMs or the Hobos. So the data retrieval, though, is when you get down to, do you have to bring the unit back to your computer? Do you have to connect it with a cable? Some of them, like the PEM2s, allow you to use a flash drive. Or some of these have their own sort of portable download devices, like a data pad. Nobody at this time had any kind of iPhone app, but I think it's a matter of time. But none of them in this last year had anything like that. I want to be mindful of the time. So let me quickly just go through a few of these others. The formats, all of them, the data comes off in a proprietary format. And then you want to make sure that you can get your data out. And whether that's in a comma separated value or text, all of these do one or more of these formats. But again, if you want to be doing analysis in something like the MyPEM data online or in Excel, you'll just want to check that you can get it out into a CSE format. The data viewing and analysis, what we did was we looked at all of these different categories and sort of ranked whether you had the ability to do them and in some cases, the ability to do them extensively, sort of moderately, or in a limited format. And that gets much more into the graph modification. So if you find that you have to play with your graphs to get them into a format where other people will understand or look at them, that's something you'll want to pay attention to. And so these are the products that we took a look at. And I think maybe what we'll do now is sort of try and answer some of the questions that have come up if anyone has questions about specific products. OK, I did pull one or two questions aside. One was from Robert in Dr. Alina. He asked, where exactly should the loggers be placed in relation to airflow throughout the room? Well, that's a good question. And I think it really depends on what it is you want to be measuring. Do you want to be checking the outputs from your HVAC system, in which case having it near your outtake devices is fine. But if you really want to know what it is that your collections are responding to, then you'll want to put the loggers in the midst of your collection material. That doesn't give an exact answer. It should always be six foot off the ground. But you definitely want to pay attention to what the variables are. If you want to see the sunlight factoring into your environment, you may or may not want your loggers indirect sunlight. Generally, that's not something you're going to want. If all your vents are up high, placing your loggers up there is going to give you very, could give you different data than if it's sort of down at sort of five foot range. So I think it's really paying attention to what is it that you're measuring? Are you looking at system performance? Are you looking at sort of general room level conditions? And what sometimes I've done in really big spaces or with institutions where we weren't sure if there was stratification of the environment within a room is that we would have some of the inexpensive equipment. We'd maybe buy sort of three of the cheaper products and sort of put them in three different spaces, three different places in one space and sort of see how different was it. The trend should be the same once you know that maybe there's sort of several degrees or several percent change in humidity from your top shelf down to your bottom shelf, you can sort of factor that in and move on. You shouldn't need to be monitoring with several pieces of equipment in one space for a long-term basis. OK, and Robert, typed in while you were saying, at what levels again? But I think the end of what you just said there might have addressed that question. Robert, let us know if it didn't. In the meantime, Carl Stewart mentioned this pinnacle that was hardwired to the internet with email real-time alerts. He's asking if you have any suggestions of other data loggers that also provide that service. Well, Carl, I too was sad because the pinnacle was a really great product. And they just took their business model in a different direction. And that was much to my great dismay. So if you're trying to replace something like the pinnacle, then you're moving towards a network or wireless system. And that's sort of our next Conservagram product or project that a few of the loggers that are listed here can be modified to be wireless. Or they have sort of a comparable sort of model that has the wireless or hardwired capabilities. So some of the options that are out there are the ACRs actually can be hardwired in what's called the daisy chain. And June Wheeler, who is the distributor for ACRs, can provide information on how to do that. It takes a little bit of work to set up. But functions really well. And the new ACR software makes managing that data much easier. There's a number of other. The Hanwell has several different wireless options, which is a cell phone network base. And the other, which is their older radio telemetry line. And the TND also has the RTR503 has several different options for wireless. You can send it over a cell phone network. You can also just have it beamy and get their handheld collector that then you can sort of walk into the space and download so it'll beam it to your handheld collector. The onset hobo has what they call the hobo data nodes, which was not listed in the Conservagram because it's really a network system. It's the only one that I found that was sort of something that people without an IT department could set up and out of the box and make work. But it has very limited wireless sort of capability. You need to test it out in your institution to make sure that it can sort of the signal can pass through your walls and floors. But the thing to know about the wireless systems is that most of them will require some degree of IT or tech support. And so you have to sort of think about whether you're an institution that's prepared to handle that. OK, and there's been some talk in the chat about the hobo and it being able to use a, I'm sorry, I've lost it here, a phone dial-up module. But I think that it didn't work for Susan. They were incompatible with their telephone in-house system. I don't know if that's something you've encountered before. I just want to say we only have about three or four minutes left. So if there are any other last minute questions, I just want to encourage people to put them in and also to say that we can continue this conversation on the online discussion boards, too. Not in real time, but pretty close. There was another question that was different that Jonathan Canning had about sampling. He said, we sample every 30 minutes, but sometimes that produces a jagged graph of sudden highs and lows or oscillations that are of 2% to 4%. Are we unnecessarily frightening ourselves when the termahydro graph nearby produces a smooth line? There's been a little chat back and forth about that. I don't know if you want to address it. You know, I think Wendy's response was really smart about making sure that when you open up the graph that you are, I think we've become trained by the hygrothermographs to look at it sort of on a 0 to 100% RH scale. And the hobos do this auto-scaling. When you can change that on the graph, unfortunately, you can't sort of set it to automatically always do that. But when you change the scaling of your graph, it should sort of smooth that out for you and make it a little less frightening. The ability that you can put it into something like the PEN data, which will sort of do the same thing. Thank you, Wendy, for that tip. OK, and I saw a TB question there about if we could host a webinar for the wireless units. And I will add that to our list of webinars to think about. OK. I'm going to pull over an evaluation. This is about interested in the wireless systems or they've been experimenting with them. Encourage them to contact me because we have a list of the ones that we've been looking at. And I'd be very interested in hearing what other people have been playing with or investigating. OK, great. We can open that up as a discussion too on the website. And we'll post a recording of this webinar within a day. I pulled over a link to an evaluation. It's about eight questions long. And it doesn't take a lot of time. We read your responses really carefully and appreciate your taking the time to fill it out. If you could. And I just wanted to mention that next Monday, our next live chat webinar will be called Applying to NEH's Preservation Assistant Grants. And our expert will be Elizabeth Joffreyan, who's a senior program officer in the Division of Preservation and Access at NEH. And the following three webinars we have posted online are Introduction to LED Lighting, Outsourcing Digitization, and May Day Create a Game Plan. I want to thank you so much, Rachel, for joining us today. And I want to thank all of our participants for the great questions and your lively participation. That was great. And I'll make sure that everybody knows about the recording. And we hope that you'll be able to join us again on a webinar very soon. Thank you, Rachel. Thank you, Elsa. Thank you, everyone. OK, everybody, have a great afternoon. Bye. Bye.