 We're alive welcome to Thursday night live reality check I've got my panel of experts tonight. How you guys doing? Doing great great all those will good to see everybody tonight's topic. I think is an important topic and it's how to heal from a divorce a breakup and other traumas Now I think that I have always said that Probably the most I'll say the most frequent entrance ticket to the man is fear or men's content is through trauma and Probably it's through a breakup or a divorce So I think that is probably the number one reason why men enter men's content and the man is fear So we we have a breakup we have divorce There's also other types of trauma. So if anyone wants to add to this, that's great I think loss of a loved one is a major trauma in someone's life It could be your parents. It could be your wife your husband somebody close to you a friend It could be losing a job Losing your life supports. I mean basically how you how you support your family that that's major trauma There's also a couple other ones like a physical ailment as far as say cancer or our military people Come over from the Middle East lose an arm or a leg now think about that. That's a trauma that somebody has to deal with There's a couple others that I thought of one is getting older This is probably something that most people don't think about that can be a trauma for some people Especially if you're in failing health and you're not taking care of yourself or you're watching say your spouse Fail in health or get older Another one would possibly be anger and rage. That's that's a trauma to the system an Angry person somebody who's enraged all the time So I think those are some basic Traumas that people go through men and women and it affects affects everybody. I think differently I'm sure all you guys have heard of I think it's the Kubler Ross model It's these five stages of grief denial anger bargaining depression and acceptance And I think those all obviously go hand in hand. So when you're going through a trauma I think those five things really are are important to recognize when you're going through that so Is there any other types of trauma that anyone on the panel could add? Oh, yeah But Pat is the expert. I'm not a dating coach So let's back to you Yeah, well, I mean some that they come up actually relatively commonly in my practice Stuff that happens in the childhood period Which then you know you get traumatized in the way trauma works is that you get traumatized by somebody and then That leaves you open to being traumatized further by other people And that's been and then it creates a pattern where very often you'll seek out your own You know seek out trauma basically because that's how you start to associate it with connection You see this a lot for instance with girls who? You know heavily put promiscuous or date guys who treat them terribly It's like a trauma loop for them, but where does that stuff start? Sexual abuse happens very often with sexual abuse in childhood. Sometimes it's more just physical or Emotional abuse. I know that the the man is here well, Joe from time to time about bullying and I understand that in a reaction to the perceived weakness of guys today that Oh, maybe we need to get bully kids more but Bullying can be really destructive, especially if it's ongoing The guys I've worked with who have been seriously bullied some of them are I mean it it is It takes a lot to bring them back together basically because they'll block out whole periods of time in their whole Orientation towards other people They are basically shut down. They put themselves last and you mention rage and anger Tony will a lot of times it it all comes as a result of this of trauma where their needs are just never met when they're younger so So yeah, and you know BPD as well not just necessarily With a woman you've dated but actually having a mother who has BPD or some other serious mental illness Doesn't know what BPD is what oh borderline personality disorder and It's that's really awful because I mean, you know, you take any of the stuff that people the man is here talk about like Dark side of woman women. It's like amplify that by 10. It's it's just Extremely Toxic they're old. They're they're always manipulating you always gasoline you always criticizing you Some but sometimes if they want something from you, then they'll be very sweet and seductive And so it will just flip on a dime like that So, but yeah, I agree Tony. I mean, there's a there's a lot of different Kinds of trauma and you know, I think it what is it the famous Tolstoy quote? I'm gonna butcher it but it's it's a Every happy family is happy in the same way and every unhappy family is unhappy in a different way and so it's that there's many ways to be traumatized but Healing trauma all looks more or less the same at the end of the day How about Gonzo or man or Tony Johnson any other types of trauma you guys can add to this Yeah, I can piggyback on you guys hear me I can piggyback on Pat So number one I have a couple books with me But one of my favorites I found in 2020 the body keeps a score. This is by a clinical psychiatrist Bessel van der Kolk He lives in America, but I think he's from Germany or something. I think he lives up in Michigan or I don't know something like that Great dude, I invited him to speak last year too, but I'm gonna her back from yet and invite him again this year, too So number one, I would piggyback on what Pat said and Up the ante a little bit and I don't think that anger and trauma or for anger and rage or form of trauma At best they would be symptoms of trauma. It might even be like a response mechanism to defend yourself like fight or flight freeze Fawn anger and rage could be used to defend yourself in a positive sense So in general not on the anti anger Bandwagon, I do think angering could be destructive though, obviously you can destroy yourself You can destroy a family you can do a destroy a lot of things with anger That are not good to destroy on the other hand, of course anger can be used, you know positively To defend yourself for example But also, you know Pat mentioned childhood trauma That's the main thing I wanted to mention was childhood trauma This book in particular the reason one of the reasons I brought it on here and the body keeps a score It makes the argument the childhood trauma if I'm quote if I'm not not the author But if I'm understanding it correctly Childhood trauma is particularly insidious because it happens and your brain is still developing And if you go through a combat zone and you get your leg blown off or you watch your friend die at 29 years old your brain is pretty much done developing by that point and your personality Your formative years are long behind you by that point You still might have a long life ahead of you You need to live through and you know deal with but Basically when that trauma happens to you you're an adult and you can deal with it and comprehend it and process it Or your ability to do so is probably vastly greater than a 10-year-old or a five-year-old or a three-year-old or a 12-year-old or whatever So that's what childhood trauma is It's happening and occurring in a human being who's not fully formed yet not even close They haven't even had puberty yet, you know if they're like eight years old or something so they still have a lot of brain development personality development to go through and That trauma a severe trauma that young can cause lifelong problems that are very difficult to overcome and Typically what you would call this is CPTSD complex post-traumatic stress disorder as opposed to PTSD you might hear about in the movies and stuff Which by the way was not recognized for a long time as rejected like a pseudoscience like nonsense ACB called shell shock and these are the terms back in the day So finally somewhere along the way they finally recognized it and this author that doctor has been trying to get CPTSD added to the DSM-5 and all that stuff since like 1991 So, you know 30 years now or so make that about And he's gotten close to a couple points all these you know stupid bureaucratic things he has to go through But for different reasons, it's difficult to get done and above all it seems to be that These pharmaceutical companies they prefer to have this wide variety of ailments to prescribe people with shit and CPTSD is too much of a catch-all that would basically reduce profit for these companies with pills and shit This is probably a story you've heard a thousand of the ways to write in the medical industry Anyway childhood trauma is very serious and it's in a lot of ways the root And I think Pat would probably have some agreement on this to relationship trauma the guys incur later in life with BPD woman Or even a bad breakup or whatever in terms of how they're going to deal with that How they're going to perform attachments to women and what kind of toxic relationships are going to wind up in You know what I've been single now for five years since the Medusa experience with a BPD woman It might even be a psychopath by some standards that was argument I made back in the speech I gave on that issue and To me it's no surprise now that I ended up in that relationship It was a matter of time before I find a woman who is toxic enough to get by whatever kind of defense mechanisms I had to avoid toxic girls like that So it's inevitable that I wouldn't end up with one like that and it formed common attachment trauma that I was used to In childhood but in a way that I wasn't able to understand or observe. It was very covert It's a covert narcissist as well. I would say So those are kind of my thoughts on that childhood trauma is probably the most important type of trauma It's the most serious and it's the most it's the deepest and it can cause the most damage Because it's still happening any young adult or young human being is not fully formed yet And because of that it creates like kind of echoes throughout the rest of your life If you don't deal with it and these can be very hard This is why the things Pat coaches about shadow work and these things. I think a lot of cases that have to do the Trauma From parents siblings, you know being bullied in school or something, you know girls You know fucking telling you to fuck off when you're like 13 14 years old You're very insecure and young at this age. You're very new to the world. You're still learning how anything everything works So it's my to my two cents on it. Okay. How about Gonzo or Jean? Yeah, you know, let's go ahead. Oh, okay. Well, I was just gonna say I think And this is this is something that happened to me right because you know when it comes to you know guys entering the manager I think there's also another Form of trauma that people enter in with and that's realizing that they've been lied to It's not so much even the lie that like the actual lies themselves It's the realization that you've not only been lied to by your parents your teachers Your politicians your your public figures, you know, like just anybody you can think of if you've been lied to Throughout your whole Childhood right tying back to the childhood trauma and then into into even you know Teenage years and adulthood and then you wake up and you realize Wow, I've been lied to this whole time I've been gaslit this whole time That can be that can be a huge event So I think that happens a lot that happens for a lot of guys to get into the red pill. I think for sure How about Jean? Yeah Take your bag off of Gonzo said we're all traumatized. I don't care how perfect you think that you know Your upbringing was or whatever you've been through some sort of trauma emotional manipulation Whatever the case may be the one thing about trauma that always sort of Perplexes me is self-sabotaging behavior from people that you know That are trauma tell us We I mean it's very very common people Tent to just Don't know how to act when they got a good thing and then they destroy it and then like Pat was saying they Repeat the loop of trauma. So that's something that's interesting to me And it's got to be addressed the trauma has to be addressed no two ways about it What about symptoms of trauma? Okay, let's say again somebody's going through a divorce or a breakup These symptoms that they have the pain that they're in what I want to make clear is that When you see somebody going through a tough time, I think when you're in a good place It's hard to Visualize sometimes or empathize with that person, but I think we need to know that their pain is real It's real for them at that time. It's real for them. I mean, it's it's something that Again, it's something they're feeling Okay, we know we try not to go by feelings or emotions But this is what this man or this woman is feeling at the time. So their pain is real in their life So they're going through a very very difficult time So I think some symptoms like like a guy going through a divorce or heartbreak They liken the symptoms to like an addict going through withdrawals and It managed manifests itself or wouldn't say Mastatize itself into physical It can be your immune system. It can be loss of sleep. It can be a racing mind It'll affect where you work. It'll affect everything in your life Obviously physical trauma, you know losing a limb or or an illness. That's physical Maybe that that now goes into completely a mental trauma. So I think one will reverse to the other so So what are some symptoms of trauma guys that let's go with you well, yeah Not breathing very much I mean anxiety is sort of you could you could argue that's the more general symptom of it But how is anxiety expressed? So men very often But women will generally express anxiety through a kind of hysteria So it's external eyes. It's thrown outward Not that there aren't areas that they're shut in as well But men tend to especially on a relationship level tend to close up tend to shut down and So you'll see more of an avoidant pattern for men, but that avoidance is still anxiety. It's just how they Men tend to go inward with their with their feelings and what happens is is all the energy I can get a little bit weird here, right? The the energy of the trauma you can look at trauma is it breaks through your your barrier and as a child You don't you maybe have a lot of energy But you don't have any barrier create on your energy, which is why it's paramount to for parents to protect children and why it's Such a crime to harm a child Because a child doesn't have a defense mechanism. You are harming innocent being you're really parasite off Which is why like very evil people love to do things that children so Once that has occurred and it's gone internal Then it creates all sorts of distortions within the individual so clenching up their energy centers Which will reflect in their physical body. They might you know, you're gonna see them usually stiff and more rigid Whereas people who are very relaxed like you can see their bodies They don't usually have a lot of trauma or they process through a lot of their trauma I Would say that You know things like stuttering That's all that's a that's an Eric's that's a derivative of anxiety And of course talking very fast I mean some people talk faster just because of the way that they express things to have a lot of enthusiasm maybe but talking very fast is And not being able to maintain eye contact while you're doing it. That's a sign that you do feel like you can't Connect with the other person because if you were to do it then maybe they would Be something to you. I mean, it's it's there's all sorts of all the things that we kind of identified though as creepy in guys or You know awkward those are all indications of of trauma inability to maintain eye contact. It's all trauma so So yeah, it's like you You can tell pretty quickly that someone has trauma, but we don't usually think about that portion of it We think like oh, he's a strange guy or a It's kind of messed up or whatever and we'll tend to be a little bit judgmental which is understandable to an extent because but Generally, it's like what we should probably think a little bit about hey, what's going through this guy like whenever I go to Conferences and I meet with some individuals sometimes clients You know, you can see that they've had a lot of trauma because there's like a There's there's like an intimidation factor that's going on there and I got nothing but love for these guys and I think that you need to give those guys a lot of love because it's You know, they they maybe haven't had in their life somebody who would who would Listen to them or treat them well And so they've been kind of shoved off on their own and and as you guys have, you know So aptly stated it's it's in that state that people hopefully actually will find places like the Manusphere Which become these sort of virtual You know mentoring net now, of course, there's negative aspects of that too, but I think it's a net positive overall Okay, let me welcome Michael Foster Michael Foster. How are you doing tonight? Doing good got to see y'all hey Pat. How you doing? How's that little how's that little baby doing? She's actually in Poland right now. Oh You're going hard on that trap thing, huh? Yeah Yeah, well, I mean look I I can't go anywhere Yeah, yeah, they but but it's good. I mean, it's this is the first time her family is gonna see the baby And so we're gonna You know, we'll see what the future brings I mean, I think we all know everything's even aside from personal aspects, but everything's very much up in flux and You know very much. Hey, maybe it'll be Miami. Who knows? Oh God Welcome. Yeah, Miami is almost like America. It's pretty cool. Yeah So Well, Michael Foster want to get your thoughts on it We talked about we're talking about trauma a breakup or divorce Okay, so a lot while there's a lot of different things we thought of is like a physical ailment a sickness whether it be cancer losing a loved one, so there's a there's a big umbrella of trauma and One of the things I want you to talk about to like what Pat was just talking about is the symptoms of trauma and maybe how for guys to recognize when somebody close to them is Going through something So my wife and I we had a daughter die my first see I had three boys and I had a girl and I see as she died and It was the way it was I wrote a I wrote a series of blog posts about it that actually I'm publishing as a book later this year sort of next but um They went viral so I got a lot of attention and it made us think through of Through a lot of these issues related to trauma and it was interesting to watch how she reacted and I reacted I thought I might have lost my wife, right? She like went into a deep depression and um almost psychosis at times right like Feeling guilty like she caused the baby to die and looking for ways to save the baby when the baby was already dead There was nothing that could be done, right? um, but for me Uh, it shocked my system and I always saw people was like in my eyes dilated If you ever had your eyes dilated suddenly you can see all the light Well for the first time in many many years. I I started feeling emotion in a way. I had it um And I can remember crying in the middle of a macy's out of nowhere something triggered it um And I stuck my head like in the the clothing like rack right right because I it came out of nowhere, right? Like I'm not I'm not like that. It's not how I'm wired and um And it's and I it actually I stopped watching movies um I barely watched anything anymore and I started to realize that the purpose of movies is for numb people to feel They need like they need the exaggerated Horror their exaggerated drama to like tap into feelings that they lost long ago It's like older men when their taste buds are ruined. They're like doing all this hottest sauce they can find Like I started to realize for me like I was attracted to music and movies that would make me feel something But when my daughter died, it was like God used it to reactivate a part of me That had been long dormant and part of it was is I'm a very um Intuitive person. I feel deeply when I'm in a room. I read people natural. It's just I've been that way And I was very sensitive as a child And you got to protect a sensitive boy Um, you got to toughen him up the right way Or he'll Or he'll uh, he'll either become a feminine or he'll become macho Or he'll become one of the two because he's got these feelings and he's feeling things and he needs to be in a protective sort of He needs to have a really wise father I didn't my dad was an alcoholic. My dad was a gambling addict My dad loved me, but he just didn't have the skills the resources to raise children to be quite honest So what happened is as I went through my teens I took on sort of the sort of tough guy got arrested a lot got expelled from school The sort of like hard I hardened in a way that wasn't good It was uh, I was repressed It was unhealthy Right like guys shouldn't be crying all the time. I can't we're just I was talking to a bunch of ladies the other day They were talking about how they hate how pastors cry Like how pastors will cry in sermons. These are women. I just love they're like these woke red pill Soccer moms like I hate it. We're pastors crying sermons. I'm like I do too So I'm not talking about being emotional all the time, but having a normal range of emotion. So my daughter dies I see her little white body covered in blood and uh, and she looks just like her mama and like It does something to me, right and it rolls out because men Men experience things differently than women do women experience things In a emotional in a more full orb sense all at once Where a man processes it over time we need to do that. That's why we can watch our buddy die blow to pieces While we're fighting a war and keep on moving forward and keep on shooting when we get home that crap's got a process though And that's like PTSD with men So men tend to have men tend to delay their morning and grieving of events And it comes out in very unpredictive way. So male morning Is is is tricky, right? It's very uneven and it just kind of comes it can be delayed six months a year or two years for a guy um, so for when my daughter died It helped me emotionally heal God god can use tragedies in strange ways. He helped me emotionally heal And uh start to feel real pain. It was it was good, but in the process When I wrote all those blog posts, I had all these people that reached out to me and were telling me About how um, they had a kid die this one woman. I remember her She had this sun sun died 18 years ago in a car accident and she she said that she wrote him a letter every morning and uh And went to his grave every week and I I told her that was unhealthy I was like that's he's been dead 18 years. You know what I mean? That's not good And when I started to realize me and my wife saw this That people were attracted to us because they were attracted to the trauma. We called them drama vampires And we started to realize that these people had some pain in their backs some terrible thing that happened to them real thing at some degree That they won't let go of they stew on and you are a pathway For them back to that pain and they get to like go over they get stuck on it, right? Like I heard pat I was listening why I was doing some work on the talk about kind of these loops people get in It is very much a loop. It's a feedback loop. They get into and this one woman She had her kid die about six months before our daughter died and he uh He he just started bleeding from his mouth and eyes and died in a crib when he was like three years old It was really strange When she had she had been a missionary over and rushed them and exposed to some sort of chemical and this probably was tied to that nonetheless um She she kept trying to get my wife to kind of like be mad at god And uh, we weren't mad at god. We really believe god's in control of all things because if he's not in control of all things Like how is that a comfort to begin with? Right? um, but uh But we started to realize that she was stalled She was stuck somewhere and she wanted my wife to be a participant with her on this kind of Copiligerant in in the work of misery And we decided we didn't want to have anything to do with them because We decided we wanted to lean into the pain. We recognized it was a process It was a deep dark valley that we had to walk through there was no way To get to the other side except going through it And a lot of those people this pitched your tent down in that valley They live there forever and they never get out And when you go through it you you really you have to watch out like um You I will rebuke people In their in their suffering. I absolutely will you know, I've been there now. I don't go there right away But there's a certain point like my wife like she was stuck in a dark place And I told her I was like our daughter is dead, but our sons aren't I need you. I can't do this by myself. I need we need your mother back. You got to stop this You got to stop whining and crying every day. I mean there was months into it. I was patient. It was real It's traumatic sort of experience, but we needed her and there's people that keep telling you oh, it's okay to it's okay It's okay. It's okay There's a natural period of grief, right? But there's some people that will keep you there and they'll they'll uh posture themselves as these wounded healers I'm a wounded healer. I'm here to suffer with you Now they they love the drama and pain and misery those people will never help you grow They'll keep you there forever. I still mourn my daughter's death I still cry about it every once in a while. It's the pain's gone from a sharp It goes numb sharp numb is how it works At first as a man, you're numb because you have to be right to take care of the people around you then it's really sharp and then like It kind of peters out. It never goes away. It's always there, but that's been my experience with trauma So it can be something that can heal you it can like make you feel things again if you process it, right? But you have to watch out in this current culture People don't want you to heal. They want you sick They want you sick because they're sick and they want you sick because sick people Are are people that are paying customers and so I think that relates to a lot of things in different ways Yeah, I just want to make a really really quick comment that it's interesting and and traditionally in cultures when someone died There would be a period of of mourning right that was designated and you wore black And you're supposed to go through that and then after that period of mourning you were supposed to take that shit off And go back at it So yeah, it's very much a modern phenomenon, which is about design to keep people permanently traumatized Celebrations of life is is crap Have a funeral someone died You lost a friend a life a life is not here with you anymore And when you see these guys do celebrations of life It's not that those of us that lose somebody don't celebrate their life But a funeral is good because you want permission to grief But we hide our old people away in old homes Right and we look at youth everywhere because we don't have the guts to face death down because death Death makes us all realize what Most of the stuff you see on twitter is bullcrap It does nothing to help you with death I always tell people if your doctrine of sexuality doesn't have an answer for death. Who cares? Right. This is inevitable. You all you can pitch is hedonism You need something deeper and more than that and so I think hiding Death and making everything happy go lucky Cotton candy bs is not helpful and it is uh a facet of our culture right now I couldn't agree more especially with twitter and the manisphere and self-improvement twitter There's a real aversion to anything perceived as negative even if there's a positive outcome to negative seemingly negative behavior or destructive behavior Like mourning, you know like you're right if you get if you stay in it too long That's that's negative to the to the t right. It's not Any way positive but a short-term negative period of mourning and crying and depression and anxiety and hysteria even These are ways that uh, I'm not religious so you might say god would do it But these I think are the ways that the body heals. These are necessary uh symptoms to go through like a fever to get rid of a virus This is a necessary short-term process And if you let it get too extreme you can get hurt by the fever and die But if you moderate it too heavily too soon, you can actually stop your body's ability to heal Infectious or destructive process like a virus or a bacteria And people it's all it's very simple stuff, right? It's just like you have a virus or bacteria You have a traumatic event that happened It's causing negative problems and all people want to do now because of modern culture I would say and the modern philosophy that dominates culture is stop pain stop symptoms They want to treat symptoms not not look at root problems Uh, so I couldn't agree more and also michael the things you're mentioning with the extreme trauma of your daughter dying uh I don't even know how to comment on it in some ways and it's super extreme Um, but I think it's I think it's made you more of a man to be honest I think it's made you mature and that's part of what you're what you're describing here It's pretty amazing to see it on video live I also think that um others ecologists would say that the extreme intensity of that Not only a child dying but a newborn child dying and then also watching your wife have to go through that process That was additional trauma That basically made you more emotionally literate is what they would say Because the intensity was so extreme it kind of You're kind of emotionally constipated to put it crudely as a child and as a teenager, which is really common I was just like very similar you over harden as a defense mechanism like Because you don't good parents or whatever to to help you mature in a masculine way as you as you age into an adult But that's that extreme intensity helped you do that other guys like goldman, uh, leash that we know from the convention you know, uh extreme psychedelics like dmt, ayahuasca, uh, psycho, you know, uh mushrooms and stuff Those things can also help them break through they would call it. That's what they would literally call it. Um, you know emotional blockages and stuff like that Not necessarily advocating those things, but that's another way that these things can happen It's the extreme intensity that I think allowed you to do that. Unfortunately as it was obviously to a profound degree Yeah, I mean everyone you know is gonna die So we all we'll all get a trip on this carousel. Um, we all will But yeah, I it god did use it. It was it was um It was definitely a turning point in my life and uh It's weird to look back on it But there's ways and i'm thankful for it, you know, so Yeah Yeah, it's extremely negative as it was it had positive effects like it or not On who you are and how you manage your family and how you carry yourself as a man and as a pastor i'm sure too Absolutely So We'll go back to michael foster real quick when when you see a guy that's in pain Or a woman that's in pain through um some sort of trauma Let's say through a breakup or divorce How do you how do you? Visualize it and know that it's real In other words, how do you empathize with that person? Um, well, I don't I on I will say I have zero empathy. I don't take on other people's emotions on principle I do have sympathy and I do think the distinction is important one. I don't want to have empathy for people I think that's part of our problem of society. I think empathy is is destructive but two with the point that I think you're making um is When when someone reacts to something like their emotions are real They might not be justified, right? um And so I think it it really depends on the individual with men I always try to get the guy working on something I just because guys, um I always tell this like guys ask me how to start how to how do you minister? What's a good men's ministry? Right. I'm like dude guys don't want to I always tell people that men's ministry is women's ministries with bacon Right in churches. That's all this right Tom and time again. It's the same thing what guys don't want to get in a circle and talk about their feelings but If your buddy's having trouble and you know it Get him to come over your house to help fix your roof fix your car or go fishing and I guarantee what will happen Is that you guys will talk about, you know, your crankbait that you're using to catch this fish or How to do the alternator or whatever you're talking about and he'll talk about that and then um As he works he relaxes and he'll say yeah me and you know Me and marsha have been arguing a whole lot lately. Oh, yeah, man. That sucks You know and then it'll pass over the thing and then you guys will go into the car We're talking about fishing and then he'll open up a little bit more Right, it happens and then there is a time where you can like where there's vulnerability where this is a guy This is a a brother in arms, right? You're like on this mission together and the guy will open up to you And you're able to speak to the issue and you say hey Uh, she's she's wrong or no you're kind of being a dummy about this You know, like you you you get that place where you can correct that person or direct them the right way But I think with men you get them to work on things together um Guys that's how we build relationships like that's what we got guys that we work with or we Whatever projects that's that's where our friendships come from and that's why very few guys have deep friendships Out of high school and out of college like your closest long-term friends our friends from your late teens and early 20s Which is why if you kind of delay in that area it can be really hard to catch up you can do it But I I've seen this time and time with guys so women Are a are more difficult to be quite honest in how they process trauma, especially these modern women Modern women are very fragile. They're fragile creatures The amount of depression They they can't take much like my wife is always commenting on how weak women are You know m is a beast. She like we've had eight kids and she'll like Work I have to like shut her down at midnight when like we're we're on this farm right now And we've got so much work like I got to go put my treadmill together in my my office out there When we're off here But em will just go for hours and hours and hours and then we'll have these women that are complaining to us about Oh, I've got two kids. It's so hard and their wife their husband's like working his butt off and you know And then and then some little thing happens Like their friend from high school rejects them On facebook or blocks them on instagram and they're like a a wreck And so i'll be honest to you like i'm trying to figure out How to be helpful to women I lean on my wife and I lean on other older women I know that I trust that I think like Have pretty good discernment and we'll direct them the right way, but I I i'm looking at them and i'm thinking Man, we have screwed women over as a culture so bad Like with guys I feel like I can fix guys Because guys want to conquer so I can I think I can like get get to that in them like yeah Let's this isn't peacetime anymore like i'm really happy for 2020 2021. I suck at peacetime I'm a wartime leader right like all right. My rhetoric is okay now The people like this stuff I get away with this stuff All right, but um, but I think we can like light guys up with the ladies though um, I frankly am struggling I do like to I've this there's this woman that's been coming to our church um A real new believer. I gave her a side hug just gave her a hug Hey Love you glad you're coming to our church And I saw her crack a little bit this little bit a little tear in her eye a little crack And I just thought like you know what most people need whether they're a man or a woman Is just to know that someone legitimately cares about them Right like I did a coaching call tonight. I gotta take it off. I was like, I don't want your money You keep your 150 bucks. I don't want it I only do that because I don't want people to keep asking me to talk to them I'm just like I was trying to discourage it You can go do this go get it man. And I just keep thinking the whole manosphere Like your time is valuable. I have no problem with you guys coaching. I'm not here to criticize that But what I what I do hate is broken people that I don't have moms and dads and uncles that love them And and they're looking for they're looking for validation and affirmation from these coaches So if they're like coming to someone like pat and they're asking pat for like skill-based coaching, right? Pat's like here's how to think here's how to do it Right. They're giving strategies the guy has basic frame He's got a sense of self and pat's coming in as someone like a You know spot coaching bringing them up to the next level. That's one thing It's another thing where you're a dad for money Think about that. I mean think about how evil that is It's evil That's most manosphere content creators michael That's my problem. My problem isn't with guys that are coming in and giving skills and educating and and helping that guy Like they're actually coaches Right, but I'm not a coach. I'm a pastor. Well, no That this is good because that's kind of where I've gotten my notes here is like what pat I consider pat a professional. Okay. I consider michael foster professional Um, I think anthony johnson helps men with his content with 21 conventions He's not a coach per se but So a guy like me I'm not a professional. So I can't I don't want to offer advice to a guy that's hurt Okay Um, I I could I mean I've been hurt but excuse me hurt myself. So I think that support is very important Um of just being supportive of another man going through a tough time. I've been I've been I've done that lately with a few different guys that I know And even if you're going through a tough time yourself It it actually helps you when you help somebody But so also when people enter the manosphere, I think that And this might be a controversial statement But I think that a lot of times the red pill and when guys enter the manosphere They lose their identity And what they actually do is they They claim the identity of the person that they're following Which I think is super dangerous Super dangerous Tony this is the larpy. I mean, that's what you see it and you see like a new account like they even have they all use Machiavelli or they all use You know don draper or they don't even they can't even create and like some of these guys are good I'm not trying to pick on everybody. They but But you know, they are legitimately just parroting what they Think somebody else is going to to want to hear because They want to be accepted and they get the validation from the likes In my coaching practice. I mean I really make it a point to try to get people to Not need to work with me like I don't Really like renewals. I've I used to have when I was starting off. I used to have one renewal And then there is a small percentage of clients who maybe would would take more than that Generally now I don't even have renewals and the whole intention is to get people to Okay Learn what what what we learn, you know, I'm going to teach you some things Shift some things inside for you and then you go do it yourself and a lot of what I do is simply Try to get people to to fix themselves. I mean, that's what a good coach is. It's not a cult of personality I want them to move out of that stage Where they're like looking to me for the answers be like, what do you think they're like One of the things I had to work on for a period of time You know, one of the things you you mentioned Michael I thought was so great is you talked about like not like an empathy, right discouraging that sort of Way of interacting with people and not taking on people's emotions. That's boundaries And I remember a couple of years ago Like people would be texting me a lot in between calls and I was always wanting to keep an open channel And I still like to keep an open channel, but there's every now and then I'll have a client. He's like texting me a lot And I have to be like you don't need to text me Like like you don't need this like you don't need my validation. What do you think? Right, you know the answer to this already But but there are a lot of guys in this place because that that are trying to collect these little cults But not just because it's lucrative and not just because You know, they know that they can prey on these guys, but because they need the validation too They they need to be seen as the cult leader and if they don't have all their little hate to say it simps Falling them around Then they have no sense of self whatsoever It's very easy if you have actually entered into a state of individual agency To see who these people are and to see just how pathetic And fragile they are so You know, we talked a little bit earlier about Uh, you know, Michael, you were mentioning people who are really in this This loop where they're just looking for other people, you know, misery loves company I mean, there's the lower end of the manusphere, which certain figures we all know inhabit That is literally just people complaining about shit that happened 10 20 years ago No, no real effort to change Just who's gonna who's gonna tell me more trauma things who's gonna tell me more things that re traumatize me again Yeah, my approach with the cults of personality is a little bit different than pats I'm not a coach. So maybe that's part of the reason why I'm just different too My approach is to find those cults of personality and take a flamethrower to them and just just burn all of them just torch them alive It's disturbing to see it. I guess it's inevitable a part of human life This is gonna happen You're gonna have these little miniature cult leaders find these other guys or even beneath them And you're right. It's not just lucrative in terms of money for them It's lucrative in terms of feeding a god complex NPD all kinds of fucked up internal mechanisms they have in their head. That's why they lie, anthony as you know Yep, well, it's another symptom of trauma too, though. So let's point that out These guys like the sharp mama and the fraud father and so on. There's a bunch of these guys They're deeply traumatized and I'm of the opinion, especially over the past couple years of studying it So I I gained a bigger interest in psychopathology and psychology in 2016 When I had I was flip the mags wife at the time And since then I've changed my opinion on the nature versus nurture element of personality disorders Leaning heavily to nurture heavily to trauma I'm of the opinion currently that most disorders and most even addictions alcoholism drugs and otherwise They have their roots and to some significant or major degree in trauma Particularly childhood trauma, but even also an adulthood trauma and stuff War veterans, you know bad breakups divorces things like that But that's also in the the cult leaders in them in them just in the monastery to keep the contextualized here Right these little miniature cults of personality. They're not like official formalized cults, but they're You know, they have thousands of people involved and they're all drinking kind of digital Kool-Aid And it's not just the guys at the bottom of the barrel getting preyed on, you know These wounded men are getting preyed on by these these con artists. It's that the con artists themselves are Fucked up themselves. They're the ones who are even more traumatized They just didn't heal the trauma. So it morphed and grew and metastasized over time like cancer Into a personality disorder, right? Maybe they're prone to that genetically in the first place. Maybe not I don't know if that's even that big of a deal as much as people want to play it But I really think that those guys had trauma the fraud father's a great example He cites his bpd chick all the time in his 20s. He told me to my face one time that that chick Basically, he said he she almost turned him into a gamma male. Those were his exact words in 2017 in my face By the bpd chick I think that that was not an almost she's the chick who made who who increased the trauma level over the threshold And unlike michael foster who handled an extreme trauma very well That extreme trauma led to the fucked up weirdo that we see today on the internet Praying on hurt wounded guys That then me and pat steadman and michael foster have to deal with when they come, you know making death threats or seeking advice Or you know, whatever else are reporting my videos or whatever the fucked up stupid behavior they're doing Uh, and i'm kind of mean to these guys sometimes but I also can empathize with them In a way that uh, I don't think is totally destructive I do think that there's too much empathy today Like if jack murphy was here, you know one of our speakers He's a guy who's like super into like we need more empathy. We need more empathy and i'm not i'm not into that Um, I think empathy can be dangerous too much of it Like if you don't have boundaries for it for example like pat was talking about You over empathize with people and you get sucked into their frame It's funny you say that because I think I talked to michael foster personally and and you anthony I think I mentioned it on my show that I tend to try to carry a lot of weight for other people And I didn't know if that was a good thing or a bad thing But that's something that that affects me because I do I always feel like i'm strong enough to help somebody And I think I I I actually I try to feel what they're feeling so I can help them So that's maybe that's a fault that I have Yeah, Tony. I mean that is that is in many ways what it is to be a man I mean, this is this is a lot of the stuff with the men have that propensity to doing it You know, I I I understand the intention behind the sort of alpha and beta terms when it comes to are you creating desire in a woman? Are you creating comfort? Like I think that that the the The definition stops being useful at that point Every man who's been worth anything Has carried burdens I mean, that's it. And if you're a leader You are literally carrying the energy Of the other people around you That is what being a leader is on a fundamental level You are providing energy That other people can step into so that when things get crazy And the other guys beneath you are who aren't quite at your level yet They look to you and they see your stability They mirror that and then they become leaders in turn you help form them into the further leaders, right? And that's what women are looking for as well. I mean, that's not the same thing as being a sim Love and boundaries are the two are the balance of everything It's the balance of everything and so I think the problem with you know, I'm a big fan of compassion I can have massive compassion for someone and I have no interest in having their energy in my field Right no interest in having that person Step too much into my life Or they have to know exactly what the limit is doesn't mean I don't care about them It just means that I'm not going to take any ownership whatsoever of their problem And we've been, you know, and this is deliberate, they'll tell us like, Oh, well, you know, you're a bad person if you're not going to take on my emotions, if you're not going to take on my trauma, and they do that because they want to traumatize you. Everything in society is completely inverted from how it's supposed to be, right? You go to a doctor and they try to make you, and they make you sick, right? You're a psychologist talking about all this stuff with, I mean, obviously there's exceptions to this, but within the structure and the incentives within the structure, like so many of psychologists and therapists, talking about, you know, getting caught in a validation cycle. I have, like the first thing I do with every client is a three hour deep dives, and we go through their entire life history, pull out the patterns, pull out blind spots and stuff, super valuable. I am not a licensed psychologist. Okay. I've had numerous occasions, like maybe one out of every four guys who've come in and probably half of the guys who have already been in therapy. They may have been in therapy for like three years. And they'll be like, like, I never knew that. Like, and you can feel this like big shift. Like I never understood this stuff and they change. I'm thinking to myself, like, okay, I'm good at what I do, but this is a much bigger problem. What the fuck were you doing for three years with this person? So, yeah. That reminds me of guys who follow like red pill content creators and they suck with women like three years ago and three years later, they've been following this guy, giving him super chats and they still suck with women. They're still, they still fucked up. They've gotten 0% better. They probably got a little bit more socially retarded and nothing about their life has gotten better. Yet they're hardcore cheerleaders for some loser than ever even met. Like the level of fucking hearted that goes on is amazing. But, but why is that? I mean, but why is that? Why is it because the content, it keeps pulling this guy in. They won't let him out. In other words, I say, Satan is their daddy. Yeah, but I think guys enter, you know, for, for help. And let me give you a quick, let me give you a quick example. There's a content creator. I'm not going to say his name, but he's a short guy that lives in Canada. And he was talking about an issue with his wife that he's not married to really. Again, I'm not going to say anybody's names. But when I heard him say this, it really irritated me. Well, she was like this, she was that. So I just called her the C word. And I'm thinking to myself, wow, that's some, that's some really good advice. What, what an absolute horrible thing to say to somebody you care about. I just, I don't get it. I mean, if you really care about this woman, why would you possibly call her that name? I mean, to me, I was like a little bit in shock. I'm like, so this is what you're teaching. I think it's a form of whatever you want to call it, asshole game or whatever. I don't even know what the term was, but that's right there. What pretty much turned me off. I'm like, so if you actually spend your life with this woman and you care about this woman and you can just call her the C word with no issues. And think that this is a healthy relationship, red-pilled marriage. To me, that was like the cutoff point for me with this guy. I'm like, you got to be kidding me, right? So that was kind of my take on certain, certain content creator in Canada. I'll give you two, I'll give you why the Manisphere is so destructive. Like, I don't think it's terrible, obviously, but I'll tell you, I'll give you two stories that illustrate this and just I'll give the first one to back up once I was in a counseling session with a newly married couple. The woman had been divorced since she had a couple of kids with another guy and they had gotten remarried and the husband, the ex-husband was trying to get control of her kids and family court. And he was actually winning and he was winning on the claim that she sexually abused her kids, right? And so we're in counseling. I'm counseling the ex-wife and the husband. And so I just look at her and I do what I would have done no matter what. I look at her in her eyes and I said, did you sexually abuse your kids? Did you do something? Right. Because usually a counselor will say, oh, that's so terrible that they accuse you of that. It's not if you did it, right? Like, I don't know. I don't know. Maybe she did. Why can't I ask that question? And when I asked that, like, I watched her face like a freaking hawk. I watched her posture and everything. I am absolutely measuring a person in that moment. Like, and I and my wife was with me and I never I couldn't I couldn't get a straight read, which is actually problematic. Like if I can't read a person, I'm like, I can read most people, but I can't read you. So I think there's something going on here, right? Like, but not enough to know. So but I have no problem with calling a woman out, even in that situation and calling her responsible. The problem with the red pill problem with it is people use it to tell men they're not responsible for the problems in your life. And I'll call women out and I'll call you men out, too. The reason you suck is because you've decided to stay the way you are, right, like bad things happen. I'm from a broken home. My dad had an eighth grade education. He's an ex con. I grew up above a bar. I used to have prostitutes meeting their John out there. I got expelled my freshman year, you know, I had a 1.8 GPA. I had all those problems, man. And and some of the things I had control or some of the things I don't. But ultimately, I had to take responsibility for myself. And the core of manhood is taking responsibility for others. You can't do that until you take responsibility for yourself. The problem with so much of the content I see is that all of your problems are out there, right? It's family law, family law screwed up. I agree. All right. Fine. It's the feminine imperative. You can't stop it, right? Like for for these like recovering blue pill guys, feminine imperative is like their systematic racism, right? Like everyone has to have some cultural boogeyman that they can't do anything about. And so what I what I hear in these guys is always basically telling guys, like you listen to guys like Rola and some of the other people like, hey, I have this great marriage, but you can't have it. Like I'm listening like they say that and I'm like, no, I think you can. I think a lot of that is exactly what that hang on. That is exactly what Rola says to his fans, too. I just want to make that very clear to people listening to you. Sorry to interrupt. And and so I hear that and I think like you were removing not just responsibility from this men, but you're removing agency. When you take responsibility, look, if your failures aren't your fault, neither are your successes, right? Neither your wins are. So are you going to take? Are you going to actually take credit for your wins, but not for your losses? Right? And so the problem I see in so much of it is a leaving meant alleviating, alleviating men from their responsibilities. I don't want to put everything and blame everything on men. This society is jacked up, man. Like I rip it to shreds. But what I don't like when I see in this is blaming everything on terrible women, right? Blaming all everything on society or whatever. Like. Are you helpless? Are you a helpless loser? Is that what you are? Or are you a man? Are you a conqueror? Are you going to go do something about it? That's that's that's what I think of when I hear all this stuff. I blame everything on the men. Everything. Go ahead. Seriously, seriously. Yeah, seriously. I mean, I know that even in my notes here, I have what I have is and I'm big on this channel about ownership. So when somebody comes on and bitches about a woman, my next question is, so what did you do to add to this? So nothing is your fault. I believe in ownership. I don't I don't want to. I don't want to believe that all women are like that. I'm sorry, but I don't. I think there is somebody out there for everyone and I really do. But I think what happens is is that there's corners that you're brought into that you have to have to. You have to have this blame game. There's no ownership. There's ownership to where, you know, make yourself better, lift weights, you know, I get that. I get that. But there's no ownership on what you did on the demise of your relationship. You married that person. You knew she was a train wreck. You you did. You played some. You played a particular role in the demise of that relationship, whether you got complacent, whether you got too comfortable. But I think that's a part that's so overlooked in certain parts. And it's it's like what Pat was saying either earlier, it's that loop. You get in this loop in these corners and you can't get out. You can't come out. The reason you won't leave is because you've never had to take ownership. You were never forced to take ownership of what you did, not to say that you didn't get screwed over or you didn't get cheated on. But there's also a certain level of ownership. I think that men have to take. And I think that's a big part of the hemisphere that needs to be brought out to the light. Let's own up to the things. Let's be honest. I want to bring up a point really quick. If you can't if you can't stand up for yourself and and conflict, right? If you can't have conflict with a woman, how can you have conflict with yourself? Taking responsibility for yourself is having conflict with yourself, essentially. So you got some of these guys, for lack of better words, a complete floppycock. They have no ability to stand up for anything. So they get cheated on. Same same thing. They just they just know they go sit on the couch, watch TV. Like, you know, it's you got to be able to you can't be afraid of conflict with someone else. And then think you're going to take responsibility for something that happened. You won't because it's it's a conflict with yourself taking responsibility. So I just wanted to smoke on that a little bit and bring that up. No, 100 percent. I mean, it really it's all consciousness. It's all consciousness. I mean, you know, you're talking about earlier, Tony, that that guy who was who said my wife is doing this, so I called her a cunt, right? OK, you know, look, you say that stuff to a girl. I'm not saying that maybe she doesn't deserve it at certain times, but it's coming from a place of disempowerment when you're when you're like, I'm just going to call you names, right? Or I'm going to intimidate you in some way. And if the woman is not really much of something herself, then maybe you'll gain in a dynamic, a power dynamic in the hierarchy. Maybe you'll get that. But that's not really leadership. It's not leadership at all. It's all it's all force. You can also lead a woman. And Michael, this is what you did with your wife, right? When she was going through the grieving process a little bit longer, you called out the higher truth. And that's what a man does. I mean, a man can be a distorted man is abusive, physically and verbally abusive. I mean, he can really take people down and be super critical. But a man that's more aligned and is coming from a higher consciousness perspective is going to be constructive. And when he when he breaks something, he breaks it because it needs to be broken to create something better. It's like it's masculine energy. If you have a broken bone, the feminine energy, which has its place, is going to be, oh, you know, like, let's just try to make it feel better. I'm going to put a cool washcloth on this and everything. And the masculine energy is going to be like this. You got a compound fracture. Put this stick in your mouth and snaps it back into place. And then puts a cast around it. And then maybe then the feminine sues it afterwards during the healing process. But the masculine sets things right. And you can. And if a guy himself is distorted, then when he's setting things right, what he's going to do is actually break things further. And that's the trauma loop. Right. That's the trauma loop. So as a man, and then this is, you know, I wanted to kind of return to the little bit of what you mentioned before, Michael, because you were talking about how it's difficult to engage with women. And one of the really big issues is that women, if you go and tell a woman the truth, it will resonate with her. She may, though, if she's very traumatized individual, try to lash back at you and try to blame you for telling her the truth. And we see this across society on a macro scale, right? Anyone who tells the truth is attacked. The problem is the fact that other people will indulge this because if you just weren't by yourself in it, if she goes and talks to somebody else and they say, you know, actually you are full of shit. Actually, he's right. Then they'll start to change their whole perspective based on what the collective is indicating based on what the rest of the people around are indicating. And that's the whole thing in a relationship, is that you can guide a woman. It's important to be attractive, right, to the woman. Because if you're not attractive within a romantic dynamic, you're not going to lead. She's not going to accept your leadership if you haven't displayed qualities of being a man. But if you do, and if that's reinforced by other people, then she actually might start to heal. So, yeah, it is very... And that's why I think in, you know, Jean, you were talking about really focusing on men and how it is men's fault. Society is healed ultimately because it's the men. Because when these women start to go from, well, who else is going to validate me? And then she realizes that all the attractive men are not validating her. That's when it starts to flip. That's when women... And I think that you'll see women recover a lot faster than maybe we even thought possible once the men deal with their stuff. I mean, I think some are lost. Obviously, some are completely lost. But I think a lot of them are going to bounce back really quickly once they... And you see this right now, Tony, last time I was on, we talked about this. The man's fear has gone from like 90% men, 10% men to being more like 75, 70% men, to 25, 30% women. I mean, there's been a lot more merging of it. And more and more women are gonna keep coming into the space because what the fuck else has out there? I mean, there is, you know, you know what I'm trying to say though. I mean, I had a conversation with a woman and she asked me, what do I mean when I say I like to lead? And I explained it to her. And I think she really understood. It wasn't what most people think that I think leadership isn't a, you're not a dictator, you're not just a asshole all the times. But leadership I think is a caring role. I think that's a part that women have to understand that a leadership role is a caring role because you care about the person, not because you want to control somebody. I think leadership in a relationship is often mistaken for control. Paul, I'll give some, a little bit. I agree mostly with that, Tony, but I think there is due to how incredibly pacified our culture has become, the over to window for like dominance over women is really narrow, even in the hemisphere, right? And I think to a degree, women do need to be controlled. And they like it, they want it, they seek this out from men that they want to submit to willingly. But there's an element there of control that they actually want that I think it's healthy. And absent that women tend to destroy themselves over time. But in the speaker chat we have for 21 a couple of weeks ago, maybe like a month or two ago at this point, this is an issue we're talking about. And a lot of us, you know, we commented like, has anyone seen a woman, like look at Jack Donovan, he's in his 40s, he's very independent, travels around the country, around the world. It's kind of doing his thing, right? Writing, being an author, being a, you know, a creator and stuff. Can you think of a woman at that age who's able to do that, who's not a crazy cat lady on YouTube, just fucking going nuts on a green screen? Like that doesn't really, I don't even know if that exists, right? Women who go independent without a man to leave them and even control them from their own worst impulses, they tend to just destroy themselves. And I think this is even, you know, written about in various religions and stuff. Maybe Michael could speak more to that, but I don't think women have the capacity to leave their own lives and they do need some level of control. They want it, they desire it, they need it. And whether it's from a father when they're young or a husband when they're older, it's like, you know, the minute a woman leaves her home, if she had a good father, they get onto the world. If they just fuck around for the next five, 10 years, they tend to just destroy themselves, super consistently. Modern culture is a testament to that, like Michael's saying, right? Women, they traumatize themselves, they're super promiscuous. They take zero accountability for anything. Anybody tells them the truth tends to get just yelled at immediately and screamed at. And it's a shit shot, right? I might have a different, I just may have a little bit different perspective than you and maybe it's because of my age and the way I grew up and the way I grew up with women was different than the way you grew up with women. So I think that's a, I have a different perspective. I think it's biological. I think a lot of the Manisphere teaches that, you know, and I get the whole MGTAL thing, but I think it's biological that we do want to be with somebody. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. And I don't want to see guys being pushed away from a good experience or an actual good woman. What I'm saying though is that I agree with that dominance is not domineering. I don't think to be a leader that you need to be a tyrant, but I think with being a leader that comes a level of control and that you're going to enforce boundaries including when people don't like it. So for example, my sister once a couple of years ago, one of them, she had a boyfriend and I was telling her, I was like, you know, you need to lean into this and follow his lead. And she's like, well, what if I don't agree with them? I'm like, that's exactly the time you need to follow his lead. It doesn't matter if you agree with them or not. The point is that he's your leader, he's your boyfriend, you're going to do what he says. And that he's going to learn from that, you're going to learn to respect him, including when he's wrong. You're going to help him figure out when he's wrong or he's going to figure out on his own. The point is that if you're going to submit to him, you need to follow him, you need to follow his leadership, especially when you don't agree with it. And that's where the control and all these things kind of go off the rails of modern girls, because they'll be like, oh, I have this boyfriend, he's alpha, I'm going to follow his leadership, I'll follow whatever the conversation is going to go. The reality is that's true until they disagree and then culture pushes them away from that, right? They get away from, oh, now I'm not going to follow his lead because I don't agree with them. This is stupid. You know, our great grandfather was in 1800s, but I thought that's fucking ludicrous, right? Women do not know how to lead lives, they destroy things, right? They need men to lead them. They would think it's ludicrous we're having this conversation. It's a necessary conversation though, because things are so fucking insane today. Like you have women, you know, the average girl today is a notch count, probably in the 30s or 40s in America at the age of 25, like. I might put my little nuance spin on this. I think that for a certain, women want the man to be in control. And there's a distinction between that and to control them, because if he's in control, that's an indication that he's leading, that he's aligned. Now, I will agree that women who are dysfunctional and have trauma need a man to control them. Or that's what they look for. They look for that because, and that's attractive to them because they can't control themselves. Now, I do think women- It's the cycle of codependency, right? Like that's what I'm talking about. No, no, I know, I know, I know. I do think that women, and I'm not saying that they're the modern norm, but women who have gone through, you know, they've had to have themselves tested and maybe on the negative side, they might become too hardened. I mean, you remember when I was doing my 22 convention speech, there is some women there who were, most women were very, you know, positive about it, but there is one in particular who was very much in her masculine, right? And was constant challenging and everything, right? What I think is that those women want to surrender. They want to surrender. And the surrender comes from trust. And so there's a lot of like very subtle things here. And I think for each relationship, the terminology maybe makes a little bit more sense in some ways. If you have a woman who can provide for herself, who's kind of, you know, maybe she hasn't made amazing life decisions from a romantic standpoint, but is, you know, relatively functional. And to play the devil's advocate here, a lot of men are really total disasters. Really total disasters today. And so there is an element of women have had to become a little hard. You could argue that because of just what they've experienced. So for those women, it's hard to just be like, well, you need to submit to me. And maybe that comes, and maybe even when they hear it, it's a trigger because of their own bullshit, their own trauma. But I found that surrender works very well to those women and it creates the same outcome. That they trust you, they trust your leadership and so they defer to your leadership. But they're also making a conscious choice to give up their, to give that leadership to you rather than be like, I can't make decisions for myself. I can't figure these things out. I need this other person to do it. I think, I think like you, kind of what you're saying too, is like women, some women have been forced to be successful. And being at my age, at 58 and meeting women, I would, I prefer a woman that is successful. I don't want to have to, especially at 58 to, I don't even like the word train a woman. I don't like the way that sounds, but I prefer a woman that maybe has something to offer. I think that's inviting to me at my age. I don't need to go backwards at 58. I need to move forward. So, you know, we say a strong woman. I think there's a difference. I think some women are forced into being strong and that's okay. But I also think that, you know, again at my age, I don't want a weak woman. I don't want it's okay. I have a couple of comments on this. One Tony, we're at a stage in history where you dating as you're doing it and dating women younger than you or even similar to your age. This is such a new phenomenon or species. There's like zero precedent for it. For most of human history, most human beings that live to like 35 or 40 or something at best, they just died. So even living to your age was unusual. Nevermind being able to start relationships in these things. Like for a woman to, for even especially for a woman to survive to 58 years old or whatever, like your age without a man to take care of her or a father or a family. Like this didn't happen in my understanding. Like our species is a couple hundred thousand years old as I understand it. Civilization is like 10,000 or something. For most of our species history, there's no precedent for this. Living tribes, even early civilization was a lot different than it is now, obviously. The toilet paper is brand new. It's like, what, a hundred years old or something? Like, so there's, our brains are not equipped to deal with this stuff and it's all uncharted territory and everyone's is dealing with it as best they can, I suppose. The other thing I wanted to bring up is the agency issue they were talking about earlier. And I wanted to bring up, you know, we talked earlier, I think Foster was talking about, you know, role of Tomasi. If you look at the rational male versus the way of men, so role of Tomasi versus Jack Donovan versus two influencers in the hemisphere. The rational male actually has nothing to do with like being a man, number one, because it's not even the title, or even really being male for the most part. It's all about women. It's all about the feminine imperative. It's all about a pergamy. It's all about this. It's all about that. Beta bucks, alpha fucks, all this stuff, right? It's all about women, women, women, women. That's like 80% of the focus. And that, I think, is in part due to, A, number one, the creator's own fucked up personality disorder. His trauma that was severe in his 20s and his childhood that he turned away from. Unlike Michael, like a man who turned into it and leaned into it like he described it, which is part of what made him the man he is today, who in my view is very, very different from someone like the fraud father. Number two, though, I think he attracts a lot of guys like that with low agency or chose to have low agency and turned away from the trauma and they want to exert it outwards and dump that responsibility off to women like we're talking about. Compare that to someone like Jack Donovan. What is the way of men becoming a barbarian and all these books about? It's about being a man. It's in the fucking title, the way of men. What is it about? The way of men, right? The title is accurate to the description. It's not some double thing, clusterfuck, weird, inverted nonsense, like some mirror. It's about being a man. It's about masculinity, analyzing your history and modern culture and all these things, right? So that, I think Jack Donovan is a high agency male who chose to lean into his trauma, navigate the world, study philosophy, study all these books, study psychology and try to articulate it for modern men in the way that he understands it. That to me is where the man is where he needs to go, that direction. So Jack Donovan fundamentally has it right and that's where the man is where he is heading, I believe, he needs to continue heading. This crap where it gets dumped on women constantly and it's all about women, even if it's called something else, like the rational male. It has nothing to do with being a male or even being a man. It's all about women, women, women, women, understanding women, right? But first and foremost, I think we need to focus on ourselves and being a man. And that's why guys like Jack Donovan, I think are not quite as popular in the man history. Even though he's pretty popular as the fraud father, because these guys are low agency, they don't wanna take responsibility. They've conditioned themselves to be that way, they're raised that way, cultures encourage them to be that way and they get validation for being that way. And the minute they stop being that way, they lose that, right? They can't get a retweet from Rolo anymore on Twitter if they're acting like that. To get the retweet, to get the validation from the little guru, the little Kool-Aid, they need to act in accordance with him and be lockstep, whether there's some random guy on Twitter hiding behind a Don Draper icon or it's Scrappy Stone up in Canada trying to get a retweet for his business. It's all the same principle depending on, but the intensity and the degree is gonna change depending on what they're doing. Looking for a retweet in and of itself or looking for a retweet to boost business and get money. So that's kind of the rant I had on that. If that makes sense to you guys. I was just thinking about the metaphor I use for this. It's kind of old, sort of realized how old I'm getting, I'm 41, but I like to contrast Andy Griffith versus Barney Fife. So Barney Fife, he's always pointing at the badge. He's like demanding respect. I got a badge, respect me, right? But he has no presence, right? No command presence. He can't even keep his bullet in his gun. And Barney's always like, Andy's always kind of leaning and relaxed and calm and commands the situation. And he's got presence, whatever. And a lot of these guys don't know how to develop presence. And they just want to like command a woman, like submit to me woman. Like my wife submits to me. I don't know that I've ever demanded that she submit to me in that with those words. I don't. You know, maybe once I have, I think I remember once we were fighting over something I was like, look, this is where we're going and you need to get along. You need to come along with this. Like I've said things like that. I think there are situations where it's appropriate to say, hey, submit, but only special situations. Yeah, I see. I got you. I got you. But I do think, guys, what I keep looking for, like Pat hit on this, I think before I got on the show. So guys get obsessed with the legal side of feminism, right? That basically, so I believe patriarchy is part of the cosmos, right? It's part of the structure of reality. But that doesn't mean that that's always, that's sometimes it's suppressed in the legal system. And that's what's happened in our culture, right? It's the old patriarchal system right now is being messed with. So I get that the family law and the law is messed up, but I'll have these guys that'll say, hey, my wife, she won't, she doesn't have enough sex with me or she doesn't respect me. What are you gonna do as a pastor? Well, I'll tell her she should respect you, right? I'll tell her to do that. You can help me by being respectable too, right? But I'll tell her, right? And I'll tell her that you guys should have sex, right? That's like 1 Corinthians chapter seven. You don't have authority over your body, she does. And she doesn't have authority over her body, you do, right? You guys should be doing that. But if she doesn't, what do you want me to do? Well, shouldn't you put her under church discipline? Like, I guess I can, I can remove her from communion. Like, that's like under the possibility, but now you got a wife that's been kicked out of the church that won't have sex with you. Like, can't help me understand where we're taking this. Like, how are we like, we can't, man, we can't twist her arm. We can't force her to do this. At some point, you have to develop more and more leadership skills or recognize that you're in a bad relationship. But like, but I keep seeing guys in a manager ask for coercion, for force, right? Oh, the problem is divorce court. Well, divorce courts messed up, but also be married to women that hates your guts and won't have sex with you and won't respect you that you can't divorce. And just because divorce court's right, like that could happen too, right? Is that like, like you think the problem with your marriage was that she was able to divorce you? Yeah, yeah. And I'm listening here. I'm like, look, I'm telling you, I only believe divorce in two cases. I'm against no fault divorce, but I'm not tracking with your thought process here. Like I'm trying to, I'm hearing you out, man, but what if you couldn't divorce her and she still disfrew respected you and hated you and wouldn't have sex with you? Then would you be telling me how terrible divorce course is? Or would you be saying we should be able to get divorces for more than infidelity, you know, in abandonment? I think that's what you'd be saying, right? These guys, these guys need to recognize they're created in the image of God. You know, I know that's, that may sound weird, but that's empowering. These guys are, they don't believe in themselves. They don't have any type of, like you said, presence. How was their wife gonna be attracted to them with no presence? Now, our ancestors didn't have to worry about this. Like we had, you know, some of us had really scrawny, like, you know, weasel-y sounding, looking great, great grandpas, but his wife was loved them, respected them, all these things. Now with the, you know, the feminism and all that stuff, guys have to sort of have this presence about them. I don't know how to explain where that comes from, but yeah, it's just, I just wanted to throw that out there. I wanna say two things. The first is that all these divorce statistics and all the nightmare stories, the statistics are actually deceiving because the reality is that 90 to, let's just say 90%, 90% of disempowered men who are personally disempowered and are always looking externally to the woman to do this or this or this or meet this need, but then they won't express it and they're wimpish and they're needy, whatever, 90% of those guys will get divorced, 90%. Whereas if you're a guy who has his shit together and understands his value and understands how to be a leader, which I wanna talk about a little bit next, the chance of divorce is probably less than 10%, probably 5%, extremely small and you would only do it if you'd be the one divorcing, you would be the one wanting to divorce in that case because the woman wouldn't be growing with you and there wasn't anything that you could really, you tried and you weren't able to move her in that position. So it really annoys me when guys talk about the divorce statistics. I understand this from a legal standpoint in the sense that yeah, there's problems with society and you had legal systems, unfair, no doubt about that. There's just no doubt about that. I mean, the entire structure of society is a scam. Not just the divorce courts, the entire thing's a scam. Yes. You know, let's not cry about it, you know what I mean? We understand what's going on here. It's life's unfair, as it is, it's changing, I hope, but as a man though, if you're comparing yourself, you're like, well, 70% of marriage is in divorce. It's like, well, let's look at the average man and then compare yourself to the average man. Average man who gets divorced, what is he like? Are you like that guy? It's like garbage statistics, garbage statistics. You have no idea what the context is of these other things. So how do you become more of a leader because I think this is really valuable for guys who are, I think this brings in full circle to the trauma question, guys who have had all this trauma, these relationships maybe marriages were really going too well. Maybe they're not getting the sex they want. Well, you can try to go externally and you could, in the past, a lot of men would depend on external structures to enforce their leadership, which of course, it never felt like they were leading in the relationship. They might get token gestures, but the guy never felt good because you can feel when it's, you can, like, you can feel when a woman does something for you sexually and she's doing it out of some sort of obligation versus whether she's actually enthusiastic, you can feel that as a man. You think that is that what you really want? You want a woman who will say, okay, as you command. I mean, man, that would feel like shit. That would feel awful to do that every single day. You wouldn't want it, right? Hopefully you wouldn't want it at a certain point. The very big issue that I've seen, especially when it comes to sexual things, is shame. And you have guys and they carry all the shame. They don't express what they actually want. They don't express their needs. They don't do any of the inner work. And then they're in the relationship and the woman's leading out or not giving them the full sort of surrender that they're looking for. And then they get pissed off. The woman, it's like, how are you in your relationship not showing up? And we can talk about even, okay, are you in shape? Are you making money? That stuff matters. But do you actually feel like you deserve what you're asking for? Or are you looking for her to give it to you so you feel like you're that kind of guy? Yeah. That subtle distinction is like the root of all these relationship issues. Fundamentally, it's the root of all these relationship issues. My marriage has improved based on my internal assessment of what I deserve. That's it. Pat, Pat, would you say that you're evolving constantly? Constantly. Yeah. I think it's evolving. I think that would be the one word we can say that these guys are not doing. These women, they get married, they use them. Once they use them for what they needed or presumed, then they don't want to have sex with a guy and the guy wonders what happens. Well, she used you up, but you didn't offer anything else, you're not evolving as a man. Jean, let's be honest, a lot of guys get married because they feel like they've crossed the finish line. They're like, they couldn't maybe do well with women before. They never crossed the finish line. And now, now I got her. There is no finish line. These guys got to know there is no finish line in life. No, I think the finish line is death. That's it. That's it. That's when you cross the finish line. That's literally the finish line. But I thought the women always, they wait at the finish line. They wait at death. A lot of women at funerals, fellas go pick up your girls at the funeral. I think to the language, one phrase that I don't like is the male burden of performance. It always stuck out to me. And I'm like, burdened to perform. I was born to perform. I'm a man, right? Like, and work is hard. Like, work is hard. I get it. We're talking about this tomorrow. We're talking about this tomorrow night. Should men be comfortable or uncomfortable? But go on, go on. I just want to know. My point is that guys, it's a burden to perform when you're trying to perform for a woman, I guess. But when you're like in love with your mission and you're going at it hard, like it's not a burden. I love my life. My life is actually pretty exhausting right now, right? They're like long days with the farm of my full-time job and our church is like growing like crazy, man. It's wild. But I love what I do. And I think what guys' problem is that they're not going anywhere. And we all know guys that get married and that just settle. They do stagnate. And so if we say this, this is how effeminate aspects of the man is fierce. If I say that, they'll tell me that I'm victim blaming. Right? Just like, it's just like some like Rolling Stone liberal writer would say. Right? Like, oh, that's victim shaming. That's victim blame. What's going on? Are you a man? Like, I'm not, I'm just saying, I'm talking about where you have control, where you have agency. I'm not like, I'm telling you that when you're in love with work, when getting things done, it doesn't feel like quite the burden you're making out to be. Pat, you're about to say something insightful. I could tell. That's not insightful. Just, you know, I, this has always been the irony and people always sub communicate how they actually think about things. And the problem with this sort of roller lower level red pill stuff is that it's actually completely in the feminine frame, completely in the feminine frame, completely in victim complex. That's exactly what I was saying earlier. You put it better, articulated it better. I mean, they love feminism because feminism is an opportunity for them to be constantly victimized. I'm telling you, I mean, you know, I'm gonna go there. I'm gonna go there. But I've thought to myself, why is it that someone like Rolo has zero backlash, zero backlash whatsoever from them, from the media? Why is it, I've actually thought that. I mean, I don't think it's true to be honest, but it's crossed my mind. Is he like an intelligence asset because he serves the agenda because he keeps men of victim state and that creates a division. But I think, I don't think that he's anything like that. I just think that they've seen it and they're like, this is a good thing. Let's keep it going. I see, I think this is what the problem I ran in with them early on. And I mean, I'll lay it out there really clear. So I read the, I listened, I read the two of the rational male books and I listened to a bunch of the red men groups and stuff a couple of years ago. And I was like, man, some of these are really good principles. This is a good way to word it, whatever, right? But then I, the more I heard, I felt like, you know, I believe patriarchy is inevitable. I think there's no way around patriarchy. And this whole thing seems to make women like way more like, they're saying that women are weaker than men, but that's not how they act, right? They act like there's like, and I was like, I don't feel that way at all, you know? And then when they start labeling you, like calling your names, you're like, all right. I don't care. Like you can call me wherever you want. It doesn't change what happens when I sign out of this computer and what happens when you sign out. Like you have your life, I have my life. Like, you can tell me what's what, but, but as I listened to it, I just thought like, this is, this works with inside a feminist framework, actually, you know, and an androgynous framework is what I noticed. And there was like little bits that I thought was good. But I, when I started to press back on the rollo bots that were popping up on my Facebook page and popping up on Twitter, man, they were like really angry. They're like angry people. And then that was when you Pat, I didn't have a clue who you were, but you went through your, you donned a different persona, your red pill Pat there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and all the things you're saying, like, I was like, I don't know who this guy is, but this guy is like catching, like catching onto the same things that I'm like, this, this is not congruent. Something doesn't make sense here. I forgot about that. That was a fun 24 hours. I can, I can ask some comments here. You know, I think Pat number one is the best red pill dating coach in the world. I've said that publicly before and I'll say it again. And for the most part, that's sincere. I'm saying it to troll the enemies, but also I mean that. And because Pat doesn't really identify, I think it's hardcore red pill. It's not like a thing that you're blasting about in your Twitter bio every day. You don't really fucking care. You care about the truth and you care about helping people through coaching and doing the work as I understand you. And I believe that's pretty accurate. But I want to say though, like, you know, if Michael you're talking about the attacks that they would hurl at you, the rollo bots, even the guys in the group, they will label you purple pill, a grift, whatever, right? Grifter usually is a thing. This is all projection. It's very simple psychological projection, even in the context of understanding how overused that term is today due to internet, the internet kind of catching on to projection, projection. I mean that. Rolo, here's the dark truth of the manuscript that no one wants to hear, but they need to hear it. Rolo is the ultimate king of the purple pill. He is the ultimate purple pill grifter. He's not red pill and he's not blue pill. He's purple pill. This is what you guys are talking about when you're going through the rollo bots and you like some things, some truths and you don't like the other things. That's the purple pill in essence. It's a mixture of the red pill and the blue pill. When you tell people some truths to get them to buy things, to get them to buy in and then you lie to them about any number of issues, whether it's Nellie Bowls deceiving people about who you are, deceiving about your personal life, also they're bullshit, right? All the manipulations, the feminine frame that you guys are talking about that those dudes operate in, right? That's the purple pill. That's why they bitch about the purple pill so much. It's just projection. It's that simple. It's not some Scooby-Doo fucking mystery about what's going on. They're the king of the purple pill. The guys who are red pill or the guys who don't care about the red pill, you just care about what's true. Michael, you call yourself a preacher and a preacher of truth. That's your entire fucking job for the most part. You have another, really a nine to five type job. But the most important, probably one of, if not the most important purpose of your life is to preach the truth as you see it from Jesus and God. That's like your whole thing. That's what you wanna do as much as possible alongside being a father and husband, these different being a man, right? It's super, super important to you. This is the same for me in my own style of philosophy and my businesses and stuff. This is what I care about. I care about reality. The entire point of my philosophy for life is orienting myself towards reality. This is what Pat does as well. It's what being a man is, Anthony, but being a man is. Yeah, yeah. And the fraud father does the opposite of that. That's why he's such a fucked up weirdo as he turned away from his pain and away from his trauma as hard as he could while still pretending to turn into it. It's all fake. It's all false. And that's what guys eventually see with him over a long creative time. They see through the bullshit, especially when guys met him when he first came out of the closet in 2017 at my convention, right? A lot of guys met him who were into like pick up artistry stuff going out. And whatever people think of that, these are guys who apply red pill principles physically in real life. They test things. And then they shake Rolo's hand and they meet some skinny, effeminate weirdo who were larpses as red pill alpha male on the internet and they're like, what the fuck? I had guys pull me aside immediately when they met this dude, right? I still was kind of in like a starstruck kind of mode and also just busy and exhausted running a conference. But early, even early on people were like alarmed. Like this is really, really different from what I expected. Not funny or a little bit off way, like fundamentally different. I've got a question here real quick. I've been wanting to answer this and I'm gonna throw this to Pat Steadman and Anthony Johnson. Cause I think this is an important question. The one on the screen, yeah. Yeah. At what age do you gentlemen advise introducing a young son to this community? And how should one go about introducing this community to that son? My sort of take on this is that I actually got a question like this earlier today on one of my Perbono calls. You're the father, right? So if you're the father, you wanna use your own judgment to calibrate who you should introduce the son to and when you should do it. I want that to be clear as a father. That's your own judgment call. But I think that when a kid is starting to go through maybe late adolescence, like middle school, early high school certainly, by high school for sure. You wanna start to talk to him. When he starts to be like going through puberty and starts to be interested in girls, you wanna start to talk to him about girls. You wanna start to talk to him about how women work. And what the dark side is too. I mean, just to briefly piggyback on the prior conversation, I think that the one thing that even this sort of negative part of the red pill does is they do show you the shadow of women and you need to understand the shadow in order to move past it. You need to understand that a woman in a bad place traumatized an immature woman can do some very vicious things to a guy and that you can't be naive about it. That's the valuable thing. Now, who you should expose into. I mean, I think that's the question. The community is massive. It's a massive community. There's a lot of different perspectives. You could be, if you were to go, I think frankly, I think anybody on here, maybe I'm a little biased, but I don't think it's really coming subjectively so much. If you were to expose your son to any of us, he's going to grow and he's going to gain a healthy attitude towards women. If you were to expose into corners that are focused on the negative, then it could traumatize him. And you can start to interpret women in a negative sense. So the time to do it is gonna be when he's going through puberty, but you're as the father, you're gonna want to use your judgment to control who you want to expose him to. These are some ideas. Check out this person, right? And then you can have a feedback with them. What do you think about this? What are your questions, right? That's my perspective, at least. Well, let's, I don't know, if Anthony Johnson is still listening. Let's go to Michael Foster with this question. I gave one of my sons a knife when he was seven and another one when he was nine, right? Like, I know my kids, you're tracking with their maturity level and you guys can buy my book. I just finished the manuscript. It'll be out in three months, but it's less cussing than the rational male. But I don't know. I think you want to introduce them to this. Hopefully, if you're doing a good job as a dad, you have a real world of community, right? Like, my kid's a good friend of mine, Patrick. He comes over. My kids look at him as an uncle because he's like a little brother to me. And so my kids have access to their uncle Pat and folks like that in my life. So in terms of introducing them to the red pill community online, if I can be frank with you, if you're doing a good job as a father, you're building that in the real world. And you can introduce them like, for example, if I brought a 12 year old to the 21 convention, I brought them to Anthony, where I brought them to really, you pick any of the guys that have been at 21. I have a hard time believing with my personal knowledge of those men that they would be profaned in front of my son. I just don't see it, right? So 21, like it's adult men. Right, like, so we speak to the crowd that's in front of us. Even the way I spoke at 21 is the way I would talk every Sunday morning, right? So I think if the question is, when would you let your kids watch these videos, it would depend on the video. But like, I'd be telling everybody, you better be building these sort of communities back at home for you. If you're doing a good job, you're building more for your sons, right? My sons have access to, like for example, one of the elders at our church, he's building, I don't understand what he's doing. He's laying cement around his house, I guess for an entrance wire, whatever. He's like, can Hudson come help? I was like, yeah. So I let Hudson go over there and lay cement with that guy all day, make 10 bucks an hour under the table, and learn what it's like to be an entrepreneur from a guy that's the CEO of a company that makes theme parks, you know what I mean? So like, you better be building that stuff in the real world. That's what I would say. Hey, I want to comment on one thing really quick about the rational mail. Cause you guys, I know we're not all stuck of talking about Rolo, but I do want to say one thing is that if you are doing good in your life and you're looking for just, you're needing something to help you understand how kind of women work at some level, but you yourself are pretty masculine already. The rational mail is a helpful book. It is a helpful book. I've watched, it helped me, I watched it help, like in my circles, I know a lot of pastors that have read it, believe it or not. And some of these guys like are leading really successful churches, they're leading men, they have to run an elders board of other capable leaders, they're not pushovers. But I think if you don't have that already, it's not a helpful book, right? And I just want to point that out cause I know a lot of people have been really helped by it. And I don't want to act like, like the way we criticize our enemies is by giving them credit where it's due and then taking it to them hard, where it's not like I, I'm not a hater, I don't, whatever. I don't have any, I don't really have a axe to grind with Rolo Tomasi. We talked, I think twice on the phone, it was a fun conversation. He blocked me on Twitter real quick, but that's what chicks do. But anyhow, I think the book's good, but I think this relates to this question. Would I let my kid read that book? Would I let my, you know, would I let a guy, would I give that book to a guy that still like doesn't have a decent amount of frame? I wouldn't. But a guy that's like really confident. And I feel like I just need a little help understanding the dynamics of what's going on in some of these feminine relationships. Yeah, I might give it to him. I've actually done that before. So I have a comment I'd like to throw on. It's really important on top of piggyback on Michael. I want you to answer this question first, Anthony, since you're a content creator. Yeah, I'm a content creator, you know, convention organizer. I'm a humble community organizer like Obama, but I'm not a coach and I'm not a father. So I'll just kind of wing it. I found this community at 17 and I'm really glad I did. That was perfect for me to find it. 16 might have been a little bit better, but not a big deal. It's tomato tomato. I'm glad I found it at 17 and it has massively changed the course of my life in a way that I can't even put it to words. I'm sitting right here because I found this community at 17. Many of you men on this panel are like close friends of mine. And you guys have helped improve my life in the lives of thousands, if not millions of men in some ways, even just by supporting me with make women great again is one specific example last year. So I can't be thankful enough finding this community young age. And I needed that. Given the parenting background that I had, given the cultural influence I had, you know, grown up in America in the 90s stuff, loophole crap. Really thankful for the community and stuff. And I've seen, you know, guys at the convention as young as one father in 2019 brought his 13 year old son. And normally minors are not allowed to attend obviously, but I told him that if he was with them full time, like don't even let him in the room, if you're not there, you have to be with them all the time, he can come. And his 13 year old son, you know, came to the last two days of the conference, I think the Patriarch event because he had like a popcorn or football game or something before that was just kind of cool. I played popcorn and grown up too. So another thing that like Michael said is that, you know, if you're doing a good job as a father, the necessity for the community is going to be lower or a young teenager has access to grandfathers, uncles, other mentors. That's what the manuscript is doing culturally. I think that's why it's extremely important. The manuscript is one of the most important countercultures in the world right now. One of the most important movements alive. I think even more important than anything in politics and stuff like that. Obviously Christianity in America and the West has been falling apart. Pastors like Michael are, you know, one 1% or 2% of, he can probably speak the statistics more, but it's overwhelmingly been feminized and has feminism in it, all kinds of stupid liberal crap. So what is the real counterculture? It's the manuscript. It's the only thing pushing back fundamentally across a wide spectrum of issues to help men and change the course of American culture in a really positive, productive, long-term way with patriarchy, fatherhood, masculinity, family issues, which then spawn off into, like we saw in 2020 with Megyn McGregor again, spawns off into promoting femininity, you know, pushing back against feminism in a powerful way, promoting motherhood and traditionalism for women. Common sense femininity is what I call in my speech, I think, in 2020. It's, you know, kind of like old school, you know, common sense for America. I kind of want to answer this question a little bit. Anthony, why don't you allow minors at 21? I'm just curious. Legally, it just seems very dubious to allow that by themselves. Would you face legal issues with that? I could talk to my attorney if I really thought it was important, but it's highly risky to get minors. Yeah. Again, up in the middle of the door for the media to just butcher you. Okay, okay, I can see that. But I say that, here's why. I mean, my design, if he's asking that question, if you enjoy this group of men for yourself, why not bring your newborn baby son in there with you or your four-year-old, I mean, whatever. Hang on a minute. My thing is this, like, you know, this is just a counter perspective here. But maybe a lot of times we baby our sons too much. We need our sons, you know, you don't have to talk to them about all, you know, spanging hoes and stuff like that. Have him be red-pilled about life, like condition him to see the lies that we've been taught in our society from a young age. Teach him to see those lies very young. Sometimes we don't wake up to where 30, 40 years old and we've done made a ton of mistakes. Why not, if you're comfortable with this group of men, Zane, I'm just saying hypothetically, why not have him with you at any age as a baby? If you can be around a group of men, why shouldn't your son be there with you? Bring your son around the men that you admire. This is cool. I can give an example where that sort of did happen for the woman. A woman brought her newborn baby who was like four weeks old to the 22 convention. And I mean, the baby's not gonna remember anything, obviously, so I don't know how Jesus was for the baby, but the mother needed to bring the daughter. I didn't have a problem with it and the baby was really well-behaved and I thought it was kind of cool. So technically, she was the youngest attendee ever of a 21 studios event, less like a month old, barely. I didn't want to go hit on, I wanted to hit on my son, Michael Foster mentioned giving credit to Rolla Tomasi. I understand where Michael's coming from and I think given his current knowledge that that makes sense to him. I disagree in that Rolla is responsible for some original work and he's responsible, but that's not the majority of the book one that I think Michael's referring to primarily here. He's not really referring to book two and book three and now there's a fourth book two. Everyone talks about the first book, which is the most important one, the biggest one, right? That book in my view and my understanding because guys have reached out to me, I've done research on this on my own. That book number one, it's one of the only, let me put it this way. Michael, you want to give credit to Rolla Tomasi, but we should really give credit to is the manosphere. Book one of the rational male is in many ways a parasitic looping that Rolla is fundamentally being at this point off of the manosphere. And he's been very clever about parasiting or siphoning out this information from small content creators and some large ones like our own stuff into blog posts, into a long train of like, it's almost like mafia, right? When a mafia boss gives them a hit in order, it goes through a layer in a series of offers to people that you get to see a post holder idiot got people's hit, right? What people see in the rational male is a false sense, Rolla, in my view, deliberately misleads the public and misleads the reader to give him additional credibility and authority that he doesn't deserve and didn't earn. A lot of that work was stolen and lifted, as he would call it, lifting, as his word he likes to use, as he does. He lifted it from SoSWAP. He lifted it from the Pickup Artist Forms. He lifted it from Mystery Method. He lifted it from Dalrock. He lifted it from the Red Pill Subreddit. Some dude, I've had guys reject him in the Red Pill Subreddit, specifically linking to me to what they wrote, like eight years ago, right? That ended up in one of Rolla's books and they gave me the direct blog post of how the process went down. The issue is this is very difficult to track down and Rolla knows that. And that's why he covers his ass a little bit. You know, I stand on the shoulders of giants in that kind of vague language. The reality is most of that book is a compilation of works and chemistry from people who are long gone or they just didn't care to track it down and bitch at him for it. So then Rolla gets to like ride away in the sunset, like I'm some Red Pill Godfather and it's all bullshit. He's responsible for some of the work in that book and there is some credit that's due, but Rolla is really clever about massively over expanding that and doing a little bit of cover work on his back. You know, how I stand on the shoulders of giants. I'm very thankful, blah, blah, blah. But who does he cite, right? For thankful stuff. Very rare, right? Ross Jeffries, you can mention like one page. Yeah. I mentioned one of the books. Like it's very... I just want to say real quick about it because I think this is my own experience with it. I mean, I came into the man's sphere. I'd been in pickup world for a while. Kind of, you know, Nick Sparks was one of my big mentors, a 21 convention from a guy. I'd gone a little bit down the spirituality path, saw a lot of things that were not tracking correctly in terms of how men and women were behaving there, politics as well, flipping to Twitter, found the man's sphere, et cetera. I very much observed and consumed a lot of the red pill community material at the time, which I would say, especially after people like Mike Cernovich moved full-time in the politics was the ground was very much seated to Rollo. I would say that the first half of 2017, maybe the last half of 2016, 2017 was very much like, Rollo had full control over the Twitter perception of the man's sphere. I read that book. And I, and you know, as Michael was saying, give credit where credit's due. I learned things from the book and I learned things from the sort of community that he was pushing at that time. It plugs some holes in what I was trying to figure out. The problem was I read that book and I had so much negative feeling towards women when I was reading that book. I could feel the energy from it. I could feel the resentment. And I remember reading that and feeling like suspicious or weird around my wife while I was reading that book. Jesus. And I'm sensitive to energy. I mean, it's something that I've moved more into now but I was reading the book and I could feel that. I had no reason to think it. It was completely just because of the book. And within a week I was like, what the fuck? Like, what's going on here with this? To Anthony's point, part of the reason that some of those things can be internalized by people is because of these claims to authority. That yeah, this is all things. I have this kind of relationship. It's incredible, blah, blah. We know it's a lie. You know, it's all bullshit. But by putting that stuff in there, it's a manipulative tactic that can make people feel off. So as you were saying, if a guy is fully within frame, they're fine with everything, they'll read that book. Maybe they won't even pay attention to any of that stuff. They'll just see how you do some interesting things, whatever. They'll take what resonates and leaves the rest. But if you're a guy who's been traumatized already and you read a book like that, there's a very good chance that you end up in a trapping mechanism. Because you see like, wow, this stuff is true. There's enough truth here that I can grab onto it. And now he's the authority because everything's great for him. So I should listen to him. And that's the real issue here. To sort of pull back some of the big game things. Anthony, you mentioned a lot about anger and how anger is a good thing. I think anger is a great thing relative to disempowerment. You're just feminine, bro. That's just feminine energy, your anger. It's just feminine, dude. Well, I'm glad we're back to trauma because that's what the show was about. But seriously, I mean, what you just said, Pat, because in my notes here, what I had said was just because somebody says it, doesn't necessarily make it true. So if it keeps saying over and over and over and over and over again, you're going to believe it. If you keep tuning into that same podcast and keep hearing that loop, I don't think it's helping. I think it does help guys in trauma. There are certain guys that are tough enough to get what they can get out of it, like you said, and then pull back. Tony, Rollo saved men's lives. There's no doubt about that. That Rollo has saved men's lives. Like, I have to put that out there. There's no doubt about it. Has he improved men's lives? No. I mean, I'm being an Atlantic, Mike had saved me here, but he has pulled more men from the brink and I give him credit for that because some guys are in a place where they don't have any hope for anything and they move from absolute hopelessness and then they see this like, yeah, you should feel resentful. There's other people like, they're with you and then they feel something that they have to do. I don't disagree with this statement that Rollo saved lives. My issue is that as an analogy, it's a deal with the devil. Yeah, it's a deal with the devil. It's really fucked up. He's trapping them in a new hellscape. I don't want to owe somebody for help. When I help somebody, they don't owe me for helping them. I can, in other words, I can leave when I need to. I've helped you, now you can go. To me, that's an honorable way to help a man. When a man is in trauma and he's hurt and you do help him, I think that's a great thing. I really, really do. Again, I'm not big on the whole saving lives thing. I get it. I just, I've got a real apprehension to when people say that because saving lives as we said before can mean a lot of different things. Saving a life means you could have, you saved them from a divorce or you, it doesn't always mean you saved their lives literally. So that's one thing I think we talked about that on another show. But I want to see guys, when you get help, genuinely say Michael Foster or Pat Steadman, like you said earlier, you don't want to see that guy back there. You want to see that you created something, help this guy, and now he can move on with a better life. I have a question. Hang on, I have a question for both of you. Pat Antoni, this'll be really interesting for the conversation, I think. We're all familiar with Hillary Clinton, nasty woman, extraordinary, right? How many lives does the Clinton Foundation save? I'm sure they have all these nonprofits and all this sketchy bullshit they do, right? I'm sure not literally all of it's useless, right? So when my question is like these fucked up weirdos with billions of dollars, they set up these fronts that in some ways have to do something positive, right? Along the way, feed some homeless people or whatever, some starving people somewhere. They're saving lives. What is that a front for behind that? That's my point here, is that mechanism's occurring in the atmosphere and saving lives as a catch-all, moral, fake moral high ground to get away with some really fucked up shit for not for years and decades. Anthony, I love that analogy. I think it actually makes me reconsider some things because my sort of perspective has been, Rolo's dealing with people at the very bottom and some of these guys are gonna fall through the cracks completely and he grabs them and he pulls them into a cult kind of experience. You can think of it like the ship gets torpedoed and they're gonna drown, he throws them a life wrap but the life wrap has a rope that pulls them away from the land. So they're constantly on this fucking life raft. It's a rope around their neck, man. Yeah, exactly. They're alive, but they're barely alive. They're not living. They're alive, but they're not living. And you can maybe argue that that's a net benefit for some guys who, if you were to take the position they wouldn't go further. But to your point, Anthony, it's just really good. It's a really good point. Is that what if that whole control structure didn't exist? And so those guys then had to, had to, if they were gonna seek any truth, have to seek a truth that was going to empower them more. If we removed it, you know, I have to be honest, I don't really deal with guys in that level, but would more guys at that level be talking to me and people like me, people like Michael, et cetera, would they be doing it if that wasn't there? That's a really interesting question. And I think you get the gavel, sir. You get the gavel of truth on that one. Boom. No, that's a really good point too. That actually went further than I was thinking about, but it perfectly articulates where I would have gone with it if I sat down and tried a journal about it or something for half hour. Exactly. He's stopping guys from finding alternative sources of information. He's a parasite. I believe the man, I exiled him from the hemisphere. That's the first thing I did back in 2019, right, with the presidency, because he's a negative on the manuscript by a mile. He's toxic. He's cancerous. Now I'm biased and I hate the guy for 10 different reasons, but I believe that sincerely and objectively to the best of my ability and my position. You know, just really quick to make a quick analogy here, which I think will tie to this. You could argue the same thing with feminism. That feminism was a good thing for women who had been in like abusive husbands, et cetera. And it was feminism that made them feel empowered and took them out of these bad situations. And I think that if we're being very objective here, you could argue that the women's empowerment movement was very good for some women who were in these situations. However, the negative culture within that community took a lot of those women from one bad situation to at least an equally bad situation that was different. And so they might have, it's like a hijacking. It's a hijacking. That's what it is, a hijacking of a situation. And so if you had had maybe like a healthier kind of healing movement for women who had been in these bad situations, that would have been better than feminism. And I think you can say the same thing about the stuff that Rolla does for men. Yeah, fair. All right, well, I'm gonna start wrapping it up. I think that, again, the show about trauma, I wanna ask, I wanna start with Gonzo. What can we do, what can you do personally to help a man who's going through trauma? I think number one is just having open communication, just to have a conversation. I really like what Michael Foster said earlier about going fishing, like doing that kind of thing. And you just have a conversation about it. You sort of ease into it. But yeah, I think just having, just being able to talk about it, just be comfortable, be a comfortable person to talk to for that sort, in that moment, in that context. I listened to a video you did this past week or two, Gonzo, and I'm fairly sure it traumatized some men in the manager, and I'm wondering if you feel any guilt for it. Which one? Which one? He's got a few now. Which, was it anti-natalism? Which one was it? He was pretty intense. I think it means the conference, right? Yeah, I think that's what it was. The conference, okay, because I don't know, we've had, so far we've had a conference, we've had a man whose wife murdered his two children. That one was pretty brutal. No, that's not the one I thought of. No, it wasn't the one I did. It wasn't the first one, so. It's the one I published, Gonzo, in 2010. I heard that one. I was like, oh, look at this guy coming out swinging. Excuse me, I'll go next on helping somebody in trauma. Again, I take notes for weeks before a show. A lot of times, all I can do is offer support, unless I've been in that situation. And I'm gonna also tell guys that are in a traumatic situation. One thing that's gonna help you, and this is a fact, is by helping another man who's hurting. The reason I can tell you that is because I've been through that, is when I've been in a situation where I wasn't feeling right, there was, I was going through something that wasn't right in my life. By me helping somebody else, that helped me get out of my own funk. So that's one bit of advice I can give to a guy that's hurting or going through something, is offer a hand if you can. But I think the only thing for somebody like me, I'm not a professional, is to give that guy support. And I really like what Michael Foster said, like you said, you're putting a roof on or something like that and just let him talk. Recently I had a friend over here and I let him use my outdoor bathroom and things like that that he needed. I mean, he was basically sent, he was living in a storage locker. I mean, and that's pretty bad. Not that I wouldn't offer him my home, but I did offer him what I could. Let's put it that way. But I think that offering support is probably the best thing you can do. And if you are in a traumatic situation yourself by helping somebody else out, it's actually gonna make you feel better. So that's my advice. Let's go to Gene next. Yeah, I like the phrase, carry your cross. And there as men, I don't believe women should have to carry a cross. Carry your cross as men. And there is no finish line. And you were meant to struggle as a man. You were meant to battle. You were meant to fight. So whatever's on your plate, trauma, address it. Another thing I wanna point out, evolve. Evolve, evolve, evolve. That's it. All right, I gotta say though tonight for some reason you look like a priest. With your beard, I'm seeing this collar on you. Orthodox, Orthodox. Does anybody else pick that up tonight with the jacket? I'm like, it does kinda look like a priest tonight. I was feeling black tonight, not a white. I almost put on a white shirt. Yes, you've done. What the? Let's go to Michael Foster next about how you can help somebody in trauma. Just kind of a quickie. Sure, repent of your sins and trust in Jesus as your Lord and Savior. I like it. First Peter, five, seven, man. Cast your cares on him, free cares for you. That's the strength of my life. I'm a Christian, right? I come from a broken family. I've experienced all sorts of terrible trauma and I ain't moving anytime soon. I'm in it to win it, to live as Christ to die as gain. Bring it. All right, Anthony Johnson, you're next. Tony Johnson. Yeah, Tony Johnson, yeah. I like going by Tony on the show. I don't know if you get to use that name otherwise. Yeah, so you mentioned about other people, but I think Gonzo answered it from a personal perspective as well. So I'll do both. I'll try to be brief. Number one, if you're going through trauma yourself, be patient, time will heal. There's sometimes people pop off that like time doesn't heal all wounds and they try to sign on a savage and shit. Well, that technically might be true in some ways. Time is very powerful and being patient has been allowed more time to go by. And that's this opponent takes a choice. Be patient, right? Like will power is a part of this. How much will power are you gonna have to twist? How much risk power are you gonna have to twist? Be patient, do meditative things that are walking or stillness meditation and facing meditation and read. Like actually use your mind to search out information to help you. As far as someone else, I would say make sure they don't do anything like hurt themselves and kind of permanent damage from the life. Like not gonna grow up or something like that or of course killing themselves or hurting themselves physically. And other than that, just let them go through it, I would say, to kind of counter punch to other ideas on the show here. People need to go through the trauma and they're all like lean into it and they have to heal ultimately themselves. They have to save themselves. You can't save them. Even if they're your best friend and I've had close friends go through shit and you wanna help them so much and you try to wrap your brain around it in all these million different ways. And there might be some things you can do like such as making sure they don't hurt themselves or kill themselves or do something stupid like knock a girl up, get in a STD or whatever. But a lot of ways you have to be patient and let them go through it on their own and figure it out on their own. And that in a lot of ways is gonna help them long term. Learn how to become more mature, more masculine and heal through the trauma on their own in a way that's reliable rather than someone throwing band-aids, a talent off them to address symptoms. Don't symptom treat someone going through something harsh other than permanent symptoms like things that cause permanent damage. So let them go through it and let them heal on their own let them become more masculine. We'll figure it out. People are very resilient, especially men that are like we're talking about here designed to go through combat and struggle and things. Men will bounce back if in most cases, men will bounce back stronger, right? Like a broken bone that heals back stronger. Let them do that. Don't interrupt it. All right, let's go to Pat Steadman. Pat Steadman, take as much time as you want cause you're the special guest of the night. So. To piggyback off of that last part that Anthony was saying you know, one of the really hardest things that guys have when it comes to going through trauma is that they don't feel like they can experience it. They feel like they have to shut it down that they can't feel it. I have this, the same expression whatever which is that every tear you have in pride you will have to cry at some point. Now, that doesn't mean go out and just ball or anything in public all the time. There are certain occasions that you know, serious situations like what Michael was describing you know, where it might just emerge on you but the point here is that you need to be able to feel what you're going through because if you don't feel it, this is a really big thing for men. Men don't wanna feel what's going on for them. So if you don't allow yourself to feel it then you bottle up more. And so if you have it then what happens to guys that like, well, I'm feeling this then I'm gonna judge myself. Why are you judging yourself for having an extremely human experience? Everybody has trauma and things that happens to them. So if you're feeling the emotions of it don't judge yourself because you're more likely to actually bury the emotions deeper and cause a resurgence later. So controlled demolitions if you can be around people who will allow you to have this release. And if you're dealing with somebody who's in trauma, understanding that somebody maybe needs someone to talk about what Michael was saying earlier going out and doing things, men bond through doing things that creates trust. So if you go out and do things together and you're working together then there's a trust that's created which that trust then creates the space for emotions to come out for some of the share and someone to release, which is great. And that's what you want to do. But I'd also say that even if you don't have someone there, I'm all about talking through things. It's a lot of what I do in the early stages of clients, but energy gets stored in the body. Trauma gets stored in the body, lifting, moving things. Part of the reason why doing things with guys actually helps them move trauma isn't just because you gain that trust from working with other guys. It's because when you are moving, when you are doing things, the trauma is moving through you. There's a lot of these memes about men will literally go to the gym instead of going to therapy. Well, actually the gym is therapy for a lot of guys because pain gets moved out through lifting and a lot of guys will sit that they really feel like their lives were saved from the gym. That can go too far, of course, obviously. But we need to be aware of the fact that sometimes we don't process things through speaking. Sometimes it's just being with someone. Maybe a friend's going through something difficult. You spend time with them. You're doing all these things outside. Maybe they don't bring it up. Don't think for a second that you being there with them didn't actually make a big impact on them. Because just simply being there with somebody is enough very often to help shift things for them. We'll talk to you when they're ready. So that's more or less what I'd say about it. You don't want to make a big deal out of it. To me, every level of growth comes down to shame. So if you're going through trauma, don't judge yourself for experiencing it. A couple of days ago, I was feeling like really negative about stuff. I don't know what it was. I was feeling negatives. Usually I feel very positive. You know, 95% of the time, super positive person doesn't matter what kind of crazy shit happens to me. But every now and then there'll be a day where I'll feel this negativity come up. You know, there's a catalyst, maybe. I'll give you read something. Don't just give it up, you know. Give it up to God, whatever. Be like, hey, I'm feeling this way, it's fine. If you're a friend around that and you see someone who's going through that, don't try to make it into a big thing. Just hold the space for them. Because very often just being around them and being like, hey, I don't need you to be a certain way. I don't need you to feel a certain way for me to care about you. Doesn't have to be an express. It can be felt through just the presence. I love it. I love it. That's a great ending. Yeah, I think as men, sometimes we consider ourselves so strong and we consider ourselves so strong that we don't want to consider other men that are going through a weak time. You don't, like, I don't wanna see one of my friends going through a rough time or somebody that I know. You don't wanna see it. A lot of times you'll ignore it, I think. So I think guys out there, if you see somebody struggling, I think you got some of the best advice you could get is just be there for them. Do something with them, you know? Check on them. I think that's important, too. So, but all right, guys. Well, I think we'll wrap it up. I wanna thank everybody, excuse me, on the panel tonight. And I think it was a great talk. And I hope we help some men get through some trauma. We handled some other issues, too, which is good. But I think it was a very constructive talk. I think that, I think these frank talks are necessary in this space. I really do. And the Manisphere is that you can have six men on a panel talk about whatever they need to without pulling punches. And I think that's important. I think that's important in this space is that you can say your piece and it's accepted. Hey, woman, hey, woman, brother. Hey, one. All right, guys. Thanks for a Thursday night reality check. I wanna thank my special guest, Pat Steadman. Of course, we'll have him on again with another topic we'll pick. But appreciate everybody in the chat that joined us tonight. We had a lot of people, had some newcomers. I didn't recognize, but we all can come back for Saturday night, get it off your chest, and you can be on this panel live with us. So you can get it off your chest and you can talk about whatever you wanna talk about. That's where we'll be Saturday night, 9 p.m. EST. So cheers, much love, honor, and respect to the panel and all the people watching. Adios, amigos. Thank you, Tony.