 Great to have you back on the breakfast on PLOS TV Africa. First major conversation for today takes us back to going deeper and trying to understand better with regards to what happened in Iqoyi, not very long ago, a few days ago actually. And of course, seeing the response from the Lagos state government, as of yesterday they were on record 44 people confirmed dead. We're speaking this morning with Isaac Idoko, his HSE manager for industry safe management company here in Lagos. Good morning Mr. Idoko, thanks for joining us. Hello, good morning. Thanks for having me. Great to have you on the program. The conversation really is to understand better how we could maybe have saved more lives at the Iqoyi disaster. We've spoken of course with other people who have you know you know expressed their opinions with regards you know the responsibility of the Lagos state government you know to those people who are victims of that disaster. But of course you know as Nigerians we understand how we normally act you know as long as the government has you know said that all is well and you know we go back to sleep but we've chosen to continue and keep the conversation going. So I want you to share your thoughts concerning the things that you saw if you watch if you saw the video clips from the section rescue operations the things that you saw that you maybe thought were inadequate or completely wrong. Thank you for this question. Before I continue I would like to say to send my condolences and on behalf of my company to the families of those that have lost their loved ones in the cause of this some tragic incidents media souls rest in peace. Also I would like to send my sympathy to those that have lost all forms of resources which humans and materials in the cause of this incident. So sincerely like you rightly said in the cause of this rescue mission like every other ones that have happened in the past who've seen a lot of lapses who've seen a lot of things that we are never meant to be. And as a nation in Nigeria I think one may be forced to conclude that we are a nation that is largely driven by emotions and one thing with emotion is that it is highly active but temporal. Okay very very short-lived. These are happened not once not twice not twice. You can recall that in 2014 we had incidents with the church guests. We have over 100 people died. In 2016 we had the building collapse in Leki where a lot of people died and even this year alone we've had a couple of 2020 to this year alone we've had a couple of other collapses in Korodoo and other places within Lagos and other parts of Nigeria. So what should we have done differently learning from the past and learning from history? First of all one of the things that I've discovered in the cause of this particular operation is lack of immediate response on the part of our emergency responders because when an incident of this magnitude happens rather you have a very very high chance of rescuing a lot of people alive when you venture into your duty immediately and I would like to even use the just one example of what happened in Miami recently. I think about four months ago we are a building collapsed in the Florida seaside the poolside. That incident happened by 130 a.m. around 130 to 2 a.m. and immediately emergency responders were on site and started work started rescue operations and all. So there were high chances of being able to rescue a lot of people alive because where these people are underneath them these brakes these rubbles and all these things they have limited access to oxygen they have limited access to air to breathe and also coupled with the danger of dust and even the cement itself because when you work in cement factories you're supposed to do a lot of dangerous that you don't even need to breathe with your the normal breath outside you're meant to put on a mask that filters some of these vapors outside so you see when this is not done immediately you now expose these people to more danger so you expose them you they can easily die and then they won't you're just being after a day to three days is just anyone who's got says your time has not come but on a normal and professional level following standard operating procedure immediately that happens because what when that's a coincidence happened I think for over four hours our emergency responders when we were to be found we learned they may be hold up on the road or no one knows even the few people that were rescued alive immediately if not for guys around and neighbors and maybe other people around I had to go in there try to get some people alive maybe we would have had more casualties than what we currently have okay so you know that there are different types of emergency now for the case of a building collapse as is with us in Lagos Nigeria I call you to be precise what type of equipment is required what kind of instruments do we need them to show up with them because you've talked about the fact that they need to show up but what kind of equipment did I need to show up with good thank you so much for this question now when there's a building collapse depends on the on the type of building and the environment but some of the equipment that you need to show with on site includes the excavators the cranes because when you're trying to make a rescue operation there are different types of operation we have the the shoring which has to do with building the temporary the temporal steps in order for you to have easy access to the particular place then we have the lifting and moving we are in the case of when you look at the mode of the building the equi building you see that they are more or less the blocks and the other concrete are stuck together so in this kind of case when you want to make quick rescue you need things like the cranes that can easily be used in lifting and moving also we need equipment for breaking and then breaking and breaching so when this happens some of these equipments are the things that should go on site but in the case of the co-e what we saw was only these excavators and that further aggravates the issues because in fact as a matter of fact when you look at what happened in the co-e you discover that most of these operations is more retrieval and recovery mission rather than rescue because the excavators all it does is to just go in with the with the rent and then try to pull down the the rubbles the concrete and all and in the process in fact we have some that we have some recorded cases that the excavators disembarked some of the people some of the victims so what that means is the person may be allied but at the collision with the excavators realize that the person would no longer have any chance of surviving so some of these equipment because the kind of building the kind of environment and the kind of operation you would like to carry depend that would determine the type of equipment that you go on in with but it's not at what time that you would only use the excavators because like that it co-e is done there are high chances that if you do lifting and moving using the cranes and some of these heavy machines it should have been easier to rescue some of these victims do you think that we could have worked faster you know with regard to co-e it took about a week you know maybe more than a week before they eventually then declared that section rescue was over do you think we could have worked faster if we if we were serious about actual section rescue not recovery like you've mentioned could we have done absolutely yes absolutely yes in fact one of the issues that happen how that keeps happening is the issue of employees competence all right we keep saying that when you leave your employees without having proper and requisite skills and and the knowledge about certain operations when it plays out maybe your family may actually be on all friends close friends may be the victim of your inefficiencies we should have responded faster and also even at that at the time we responded a lot of things happened a lot of negative things happened part of which was one you know the the guys that came on site I don't think if they have shift I don't think if they have batches but we learned at the point they had to stop work for almost seven hours this is because these guys also that are working they are not provided with your rights PPE is personal protective equipment as a matter of fact I am a few professional and I look at and I looked at some of the others they were putting on when you look at them I don't think some of them are made of high density polyethylene that can withstand for your test and when this happens when employees are giving inferior items to take to sites to work knowing fully well that that may not give them maximum protection what happens is their confidence level will be low and their marginal productivity to level below because even in as much as we are trying to rescue other people you don't also want to be a victim so we should have acted very very fast and also the the the emergency responders led by an incident commander they are meant to have shifts because you can be on rescue mission and then you leave work for us saying that you're going on break or whatever that happens as people are going on break other people are meant to venture into work into the rescue mission as others are living more people are coming so we should have acted faster and better to save more lives in this case all right so another case or another issue or that was also raised is the fact that the issue of manpower the fact that they were on the staff and we could see members relative or family members suddenly sitting that they should be recruited in the entire search and rescue and you know those who were around do you think you know that should have been done being that they don't have the necessary training absolutely yes I do agree with that because you know when you have a loved one there you would even want to jump in and try to save their lives and truly they are understaffed like I said that's why I did mention that these guys are meant to be on shifts and they are meant to be in batches so if it's shift one you can have bash one two three all right so that once you work for setting us because as a matter of fact apart from like I did mention about the equipment that they're supposed to if you're working in that place as this excavators keep working and bringing out these doors to the robbers and the conquerors these guys tend to inhale doors and all manner of things and the mask I saw them with basically are just the the laboratory mask the normal COVID-19 mask that every other person are putting on this cannot protect you against this danger this is very present this does that comes out of that place what also does is it's it makes the the staff on duty the the emergency responders on duty to easily wear out while working so they are understaffed which is the best which is a major problem and not just that the ones that are on ground do not have the required equipment and PPE materials to work with in order for them to put in their maximum productivity so yes I think our emergency system needs to do more and not just recruiting anybody they need those that have passion for rescue they need those that have passion to devote themselves to this because all we see around now is um when you know someone they're not someone when there's um a vacancy you get filled in but when the time to perform comes because most of our institutions really that is what happens and that is why whenever there's an incident whenever there's an issue whenever there's a problem you see the the real competent competent people that are meant to do the right job are not to be found but you mentioned giving the little but you mentioned that before the emergency I mean the legal state emergency management actually arrived it was true the help of those who are around neighbors that were able to I mean because of their proactiveness that's what we were able to rescue the persons that we were able to rescue alive so I mean how do we now explain the fact that yes people need to get you know the right training at that point in time let's not forget that it's an emergency and then you begin to look for who's got the right training yes I will you know one thing in HSA is you cannot try to solve one problem and create the other because when you look at the um the hierarchy right of safety when you when you are in any environment the first thing you need to do is to eliminate hazard all right to eliminate hazard then if total elimination is not possible you have to substitute the hazard with a lesser one if that is not also possible you have to create an engineering control if after engineering control you go to administrative control and then you come to the PPEs now the guys on on duty and the neighbors and the likes they were able to rescue few people that is what they've been able to do but there's in the process of rescue you know they may be using their hands to pull down some of these concrete and the rest thereby there may be other victims in there where these um uh concrete and the likes are being pushed to that can affect them and lead to their death as well so that is why um trained professionals are actually required but in this case that we know that yes it's an emergency neighbors um families um you know emotions are high everyone tries to get in there but what they should have done if um I were to advise it basically is since they are just um stopped there are some basic duties that could be given to maybe site engineers, bricklayers and some of the people on ground they can assist why the trained personnel do the main job that will help them to fasten and quicken the rescue process I had never I actually even forgot about the the um you know proper gear and proper equipment for rescue because of the environment it's filled with dust and and cement and and all of that it makes it difficult to breathe and so it must be even harder you know to to do the job when you are dealing with breathing difficulties at the same time um which we obviously didn't you know think of taking care of because they don't have enough you know equipment and they're not properly um uh uh dressed for such and rescue kitted for such and rescue some other thing I want to I want to ask about um in movies and from what we've seen you know elsewhere we hear about the fire department when there's a disaster like this you know they are first responders the fire department they rush there they have their own search and rescue team or you know you know branch rather of the fire department um and we see these things play out very very you know very interesting we don't have that here what what should you would you expect from a local government like etiosa um you know who should it really be just last summer dealing with a situation like this or showed etiosa itself etiosa local government area have its own makeshift fire department or what not that has all the equipment that you've mentioned that should have its cranes that should have its air ambulances that should have its its you know um whoever it is that is necessary and the equipment that are necessary for a situation like this is that what you should expect absolutely yes in fact I was going to get to that because um just like I'm still trying to use the Miami incident as an example because that was what happened recently and when you look at the building um the structure somehow look alike all right and then the way it happened and the the collapse also have similar model um when you want to when there's a collapse building and you want to make a rescue only the emergency in the like such as the last summer now cannot do it in fact they are not meant to do it now in safety and in HSC as a matter of fact dust is very very flammable dust that you see is very very flammable dust bonds so when there's such emergency fire fighters must be on ground because in the process of trying to rescue you don't know if there are for example this is um just um this building is just still going up there have not been electrical um um installations here and there yet I don't think there was so if not one once this kind of thing happens and um there is a spark from somewhere there is this and that there are some dust that bonds so what that means is once that happens you on the surface you may not be able to see it because um of the rubles and the concretes and the rest that must have covered it but those underneath these rubles get to inherit um this um smoke these things that comes out of the uh cables and but when firefighters are around because when they come they don't just come with ordinary um phase just as we have they have a lot of they have a lot of gears that they put on they have they have face masks they have the full face mask um with their air cylinder um some of them go to these kind of places with um scba that self-contained breathing apparatus so once they are there they have equipment that will be able to also have smoke detectors they have equipment that they deploy to this site and they'll be able to know if there is a leakage somewhere there's a smoke there's a fire underneath anywhere so they don't work in isolation when when you look at the the the US incidents you see um you see the police the military men they see the uh the firefighters you see the red cross you see so all these guys work together in emergency rescue only the emergency responders they don't work in isolation it's it's meant to be um a collaboration as a matter of fact I read I think on vanguard that the military men the Nigerian the federal government mobilized some military engineers to sites so that they can assist the legal state government um in trying to facilitate and fasten this rescue operation but it was declined so you see yeah and it's not meant to be so this is meant to be a collaboration because only you cannot do it engineering it's all about experience and is that what I'm another thing I'm trying to you know get you to speak on is you know what would expect from um not just legal state now but at the local government level would you expect that the the Etiusa local government should have these things readily available um so we don't have to wait for um rescue equipment to come from Mushi because that's what like the last mdj said to me uh that you know when disaster happened you know their staff got there you know after you know a few minutes I guess but the equipment couldn't get there uh till a couple of hours later because of traffic and the equipment were coming from Mushi so would you expect that Etiusa should have these things readily available that you have their own cranes because you mentioned cranes I don't think there were any cranes there they were just excavators and excavators are mostly used for demolition if you looked at all that demolition videos is mostly as excavators that you see um so should Etiusa have its own department its own if you want to call it a fire department have it a fire department that has a crane that has any of these things readily available absolutely yes you know um it's not just meant to be um these things are not just meant to be provided at a local government level as in in developed um world up to world level they need to have their own emergency plan and emergency team because for example something happened maybe the local government sectoria to aware this equipment are stationed happens to be in Ikoi and something happened in maybe um Ajah or Shangotedo or any other place you realize that for these equipments to get there a lot of damages would have been done so at the local government level we are meant to have trained personnel that will be able to immediately respond to emergencies why more hands are being mobilized also these equipments are supposed to be provided for each of the local government you are absolutely correct on that because you don't you can't be waiting for an equipment from motion when there's an emergency in Ajah or when there's an emergency in April or when there's an emergency elsewhere so they are meant to be provided for each local government and then each of this team need to be trained on the use of these equipments because like I said even if provided only the local government emergency responders may not be able to uh you know to um to savage the situation but their immediate intervention would have saved a lot of things and a lot of life and even the equipment provided there were situations even in this in this Ikoi incident where incidents where um the equipment broke down in many cases running out of fuel a lot of things that are not meant to be actually Nigeria is a big country so a lot of things that are not meant to be anyways um there's also I mean for me as a person I I guess would have been so carried away by the things we see in the movies and then the things we see in other country hoping to see that there would be some securing of the environment with the tapes and masking and that's what you see when there's a crime scene or you know there's an emergency so securing it having those max tapes and all of that so people do not trespass but mostly I don't think if that was really the case here but another thing that was also common as a practice was from time to time those releases of oxygen to the particular you know environment where this thing happened the release of oxygen and the release of water as well do you think that this is also a safety and a healthy practice for search and rescue and even dogs you may want to you may even want to talk about dogs and you know rescue rescue dogs I don't think we have any of that here yes absolutely correct first of all you did talk about the um the safety tips the caution tips when an emergency happens in order for you not to allow um untrained personnel or untrained people to just rot into the site and try to engage in self-help what you need to do is we call it in HS we call it cordoning you need to cordon the place all right you need to use caution tape to cordon off the place and then allow only permitted untrained personnel to have access to the particular place so when this happens you know that you're already um in charge of this region as a matter of fact this particular cordoning of the of the environment must be left so until full investigation is done and completed even after rescue operation so that is that also but in our case you know like I said when you can't give what you don't have most of these personnel do not either they do not have this training or they do not have this equipment available also you talked about um pumping of oxygen and water to the sink absolutely correct is a safety practice isn't being that as I said earlier when I when I began when this kind of emergency happens the person is more or less like in a confined space all right and in a confined space when you are in that kind of place you have limited access to oxygen you have limited access to earth you have limited access to everything that makes you to breathe properly so when you pump in oxygen because there are cracks because there are holes they find their way into uh into underneats if not completely but to a very large extent and once that happens the strength of these victims that are struggling to survive get reinvigorated and then they begin to have their energy little by little so once you do this and as you do this the um the rescue operation continues immediately while you try to call and wait for response so you must at all times have these things in place because they help when you are there when you are underneath that particular place where you have limited access to um to oxygen what that means is that the hemoglobin of the red blood cells that um that passes this oxygen through your body and then gives you access to breathe and and live fine will be denied this oxygen and then that will lead to suffocation and eventually you lose your breath so it is actually a very good practice um trying to it doesn't save the whole situation but it helps to in um in certain rescue operations and also like you said the dogs the snapping dogs where you try to use it yes these are things the miami situations you see dogs here and there everywhere trying to um uh to locate if they die if there's human if there's no human and all so but in our case it has always been the same story I did give an example of 2016 even before i mean 2014 even before then there were collapses here and there I gave an example of um 2016 and even last year and this year these things have become reoccurring the exima and like I also did say in the um at the beginning we are a nation largely driven by emotions but emotions are um active but short-lived so when things happen you see everyone cry everyone barks everyone dies but after it we who follows it up to ensure that a policy is being put in place a policy um is being designed to ensure that these equipments are provided at local government level these personnel are well trained because emergency as an emergency responder you shouldn't just be an ordinary person you should be a field professional that understand the risks for example when as an emergency responder if yours is some for building collapse because you have building collapse you have a bomb terrorism and all that you have all manner of you have earthquakes and all that be based on your department or if you are even for um all of these rescues you are meant to be trained for example as this building collapsed what are the dangers what are the risks that the cement the blocks and the environment poses the risks determine the kind of equipment that you go in their way so and as you get there you're already equipped you're already kitted you'll be able to perform maximally but when you don't have this training or you don't you don't have this equipment your marginal productivity will be low because your confidence level is low as you are working you'll be telling yourself remember your family is waiting for you at home when you breathe in this in excess you may collapse here or when you get home you may collapse so because these are actually very very hazardous dust and stores that are exposed to in a sane society what levels of incompetence and failure would you point out that the families of these you know victims can sue the legal state government or sue la sema uh for um can you share with us you know the the different levels of failure that you've noticed that should be enough for a class action lawsuit okay um like i said earlier we have late time of response when something happened by 130 a.m where people are sleeping they were um immediate response to the rescue to ensure that okay they've moved these guys out of that place and all that is one two another failure another um failure is that of um failure of equipment not being able to provide the right equipment when they need um a rose for these guys to be rescued that is part of it and then also the the excavators the excavators that um that were used or that was used you know you don't just use that for the for for the few bodies that were dismembered in the cause of trying to rescue you know it wasn't meant to be so you can't just what's happened was basically more of retrieval and recovery rather than rescue because even the few ones remember the few ones that were rescued alive and the ones that when the incident happened immediately and then maybe a few as we but afterwards what we saw was just horrible so the excavators dismembering people and then all that it wasn't meant to be so this also boils down to um the failure of the government to provide the requisite training to respond at the time because security um securing lives and properties of every citizen is a sole responsibility of the government therefore they can be they can be i'm not a lawyer but um speaking from um safety perspective it is a wrong practice because for every incident that you see for every incident that you see they are caused by either an unsafe act or an unsafe condition so government not provide not responding immediately by trying to come when um when the uh this thing happened within a few minutes to uh maybe at most an hour an hour is even too much for rescue operation to commence whereas we heard that this took over for hours before they arrived and all so this is the failure of the government because when there's an unsafe act or an unsafe condition you can be held liable for it so the government by not responding immediately actually the government by not responding immediately created an unsafe condition for these guys for many of these guys not to survive all right Isaac Hidoko HSE manager at uh industry safe management company Limited here in Lagos thank you very much for joining us this morning we of course uh we'll keep the conversation going and hope that there is some clarity as to uh what happens next thank you uh for your time once again good morning all right thank you for having me absolutely uh stay with us here on the breakfast we'll take a short break when we come back we're going to be moving into talk in politics now direct or indirect primaries that's what comes up next