 Tonight we take a look at the energy sector in Nigeria as the power grid has collapsed 98 times under the Bahá'í administration amid 1.52 trillion Naira bailouts and the fuel crisis situation even as New Bengal threatens a nationwide strike. Again, the National Security Advisor, Major General Baba Ganam Munguno forecast an estimated $23 billion loss this year if crude oil theft remains unchecked. This is Plus Politics, I am Mara Anacol. In 2022 Nigeria's energy sector which should be generating about 80% of government's revenue got severely battered. The sector was characterized by nationwide blackouts due to repeated collapse of the power grid, fuel scarcity, inability to commence the full implementation of the petroleum industry bill leading to an extension of the removal of fuel subsidy and unmet targets for project execution. This indeed left millions of Nigerians at the receiving end. The country is also battling with oil theft as it consistently failed to meet its oil projection of 1.8 million barrels per day due to massive oil theft. Now experts have said that Nigeria loses about 600,000 barrels of crude oil per day to thieves and the Nigerian National Petroleum Corporation, NNPC has however admitted losses of 470,000 barrels per day. While this discrepancy exists, what is however certain is that much of our crude oil is stolen on a daily basis. Joining us to discuss this and more is Fine Face Dunaminé, he is the Executive Director Youth and Environmental Advocacy Centre. Also joining us is Comet Celestin Akboberi, he's the National Coordinator Organic Solidarity Forum and Olalekon Ighe, he is a journalist. Thank you very much gentlemen for joining us, good evening. Good evening and thank you for having us on the programme. Good evening and thank you all of you. All right, I'm going to start with you Fine Face. It's very interesting that I think you and I have had this conversation late 2022 about the energy sector and the issue of oil thefts. Let's start from there. A lot of people would point to other countries who have been blessed just like Nigeria with the kind of natural resources that we have, especially crude. But in the case of Nigeria, can we really say that it's a blessing? Yes, we can say the oil we have in Nigeria is a blessing because we didn't buy it, got deposited it under our soil and it has been helping to contribute to the development of the country. The same way it is contributing to environmental pollution and destruction of sources of livelihoods of fishermen and farmers in the Niger Delta. And the same way that those who are involved in the massive crude oil theft that is going on in the Niger Delta, from those who still recruit oil for illegal bunkering activities and those who still recruit oil for illegal artisanal crude oil refining. The oil has been contributing to national development because today if you look at Nigeria as a country, I think Nigeria, the major foreign exchange enough for the country is crude oil. That's the country exports outside the country. Agriculture was booming before oil came into operation. But to a very large extent, I believe that despite the challenges we are having in the oil and gas sector, is still something that I can say is a blessing, except when you look at the other bad aspects of it, the environmental pollution that we have had, how it is destroying the sources of livelihoods of fishermen and farmers, and then those who are getting involved in this and illegally bunkering this product out of the country. But to a very large extent, I think it is a blessing. But we cannot continue to depend on this blessing because today the world is moving away from hydrocarbon to clean and renewable energy, and it should be the direction that we should follow as we move forward as a nation. I like where you ended, but I'll come back to that. Let me go to Mr. Kwaabari. Mr. Kwaabari, you obviously are from one of those communities that this oil, supposedly a blessing, has somewhat become a curse of sorts because of course your farmers are unable to go to their farms, the fish in the river is dying because of pollution. And of course the issue of high prep and the agonies cleanup comes to play. But I want to go back to the basics. Just like Fineface said, there was a time where there was an agricultural boom and Nigeria's dependence was on agriculture and other natural resources. At what point did we realize that oil can become a mainstay? And why did we abandon other aspects of the economy to depend on oil even as we have depended on oil? How has that helped the growth and development of this country? Mr. Kwaabari, can you hear me? I don't think that we can hear him. Okay. I'm sorry. I won't mute it. Okay, go ahead. I disagree completely with my brother Fineface to say that oil has been a sort of blessing. Maybe it's been a blessing to those that are in a boonja that does not live here, the Nigerians that have not seen or suffered any of the negative consequences of oil extraction. But as far as I'm concerned, the day we abandoned agricultural produce to focus on oil, that was the beginning of our doom. Because as an agoni, I know that as a young man, when you come back from school, you go to the river, get some catch, make your food, eat, and then you go back to really go for the fishing that you will say to make money. These fishes, you don't feed them. You only go come, get them, say on a daily basis. I'm not saying that farming is bad, but those that are upland agoni, they go to farm, they cultivate the farm. In nine or 10 months time, they will go to a vest. The vest was very rich. I used to follow my mother to the farm. The two heads of cassava, we are gone. Today, you will approve one local government, you won't get the basic. And that's because the oil, oil extraction has sucked the land. Poisoned the environment, the air that we breathe. Life has become so short here. And of course, I don't need to tell you that if agoni, the now oil, cancer we were, and 2,000 others would have been alive, for the 1995, the government of Nigeria and say, choose oil over blood of very important countries. So you don't expect an agoni man. Even with the UNEP report, which I call a death sentence on agoni environment and agoni that are alive. You don't expect any person to stay alive in agoni to call oil a blessing. And you'll never be a blessing. Why do you think that politicians decided to take oil as the mainstay? Because like I said in my opening, Nigeria is blessed. We have all kinds of mineral sources. We have gas, natural gas, all sorts of things that we could be making money on if we faced them as squarely as we're facing our oil and gas sector. Is it that it's easier? Was it that it was easy money? And that's why it became a mainstay. And every other sector seemed to have died or dwindled right after we discovered it. No, it's not because our people are lazy. They don't think, you know, they don't think. Are you telling me that Nigeria has oil more than America? No, we don't have oil more than America. But even if they have oil, they take it as a result and focus on other sector of the economy. So our people are lazy and love is the easy way. So while they are sleeping, their account is reading and they wake up and see price of money and that's why they could easily abandon the granite pyramid, the cocoa, the oil palm. Look at Norway, Malaysia came here to pick palm nuts. Today, look at what oil palm has done to the economy of Malaysia. I mean, just look at it. The people came here to pick our palm nuts and look at what the economy has done. So it means that if we are concentrated on the granite pyramid, on the cocoa, on the palm oil, on other things that we have, we would have done better today because you will not see and loot the money from farming the way you spend and loot the money from oil that you don't do anything about. You just sleep and wake up and see it in your accounts. And because people don't work to get it, they spend it as if it is falling from heaven. Let me come to you, Olalekon. You obviously are a journalist and you've been in the Niger Delta for quite a while so you obviously can talk more about. Let's talk about the politics in the oil and gas sector and how it has one way or the other cost or solved, if there be any, some of the problems that we are facing in the Niger Delta and in the country in general. He talked about the fact that our people are lazy and hence the oil becoming our mainstay, but then we've established that fact. Why do you think that the Nigeria oil and gas sector is the way it is? Remember recently, the NNPC just got a window dressing and a rechristening ceremony, but then Zerunaira has been remitted into the Nigerian coffers or the federal government's coffers from the rechristened NNPC. Where did we go wrong? I think it's because of our inability to think as a nation. It is oily blessing, maybe to some extent, but largely it's not been the real blessing we'll have expected in Nigeria. Remember that the oil is not even the number one contributor to Nigeria's GDP. The number one contributor to Nigeria's GDP as of today is agriculture, meaning that even the oil and gas that God has blessed us with, we are not even making full use of it as of today. None of the refineries in Nigeria are working. We're only expecting that the Kotaku refinery will come on stream in 2023. Dangoti refinery will expect that to come on stream in 2023, meaning even as it is, even with the derivatives that can be gotten from the oil and gas, is Nigeria even able to harness it to ensure that it contributes to our GDP? As of today, we're importing navigation foil, we're importing diesel, we're importing kerosene, we're importing petrol. I'm sure you know that there are several derivatives through fractional distillation in the oil and gas sector. You're talking of bitumen, you're talking of diesel, you're talking of low-puff oil, you're talking of kerosene, which is DPK, you're talking of petrol, you're talking of diesel. A whole lot of things have come out of the fractional distillation, especially when it comes to petroleum products. And you can be rest assured. And of course, a lot of Nigerians know that 90% of these things are imported. So even with the oil and the gas that we have, it's not even contributing to Nigeria's GDP, meaning we are rather exporting and we are rather exporting what is our blessing and importing what we should rather have been able to develop locally. So you've heard that the oil and gas set up, like Celestina Pupubari said, you know, is the easiest approach. You are sleeping and your account is being credited. Once you're able to extract the oil from the ground, you're able to separate it and you're able to export. The production continues. You really have to monitor and ensure the pipelines are working, the flow stations are working, the export terminal is working. Once all of these are done, you can be rest assured that you can be making easy money. Unlike agriculture and some other sectors of the economy that requires much more of industry, much more of competition, much more of contribution in terms of expertise, in terms of human resource and all of that. They begin to understand why Nigeria are struggling in spite of the abundance of oil and gas that we have in this country. People make, I mean, the whole world watched what happened in Qatar in 2022. The first time a Middle Eastern country was hosting the World Cup and all of this was made possible by the oil that they have in that country. And we can see, you know, what is being done with it. And that's detail for the UAE and that's detail for Saudi Arabia. Why can't the same be said about Nigeria, which a lot of people would say is the big brother here in Africa? What do you think the challenge is? Being that many people have campaigned about, you know, on this oil and the corruption in the sector and trying to bring, you know, Nigeria to its pride of place, even though several other aspects of the economy are being left to suffer. Qatar is not richer than Nigeria by every stretch of imagination. Nigeria is better than Qatar in terms of human resource. Nigeria is better-blessed than Qatar in terms of numerous, you know, natural and human resource that anybody can think of in this world. There's nothing spectacular that Qatar did that Nigeria cannot do. Only that we have not been able to put our axe together. I'm sure you might be aware of figures, you know, that are being rolled out to say, look, this is the amount of money that have been stolen, you know, from oil theft. This is how much is being spent in terms of oil theft. So you can imagine if we're able to put all of our resources together, if we can reason, if we can come together, if we can get governance better, if we can get the citizenry of Nigeria better, because a lot of people advocate for better government. There's no way you can have a better country without better citizens. Better citizens will translate to better leadership. So you cannot be expecting the leadership, you know, to be spent overnight. Why the rest of Nigerians as nationals will continue to do things with their dream things at the moment. So you expect a better country without better citizens, which is why Qatar and much of the countries that have oil are being able to develop beyond human comprehension. Look at the United Arab Emirates. It's not that United Arab Emirates is richer than Nigeria on all fours, but they have been able to put their hearts together. They've been able to manage the resource, maximize everything that they can get out of the crude oil God has blessed them with. And you can see the transformation as of today. United Arab Emirates is raising huge amount of money from tourism, meaning they are already trying to diversify away from the crude oil, you know, that they have in large quantities. So tourism is becoming the most domestic product in the United Arab Emirates. Qatar has just done that. And there's nothing that Niger cannot do if we put our hearts together and resolve to put this nation first. But fortunately, that is not what we are doing at the moment. Let me come back to you fine face. Let's talk about, I mean, because you said that it's not just the job of the leaders, it's also a community. So it has to be all hands on deck. We concerted efforts. But let's bring it back to the Niger Delta where most of the oil is. Before we had the upsurge of the insurgency, there had been claims and counterclaims of governments and international oil companies conniving with certain community leaders and government officials to somewhat fleece the people of something that is due them. Let's talk about that corruption and how it has, you know, eaten deep into, you know, these oil communities and, of course, the fabrics of leadership in the country. Yeah. Thank you very much once again. I think that when you talk about oil in Nigeria, you don't just begin by situating it in the Niger Delta. You have to begin and start talking about oil from the federal level. Then you cascade to the periphery and stays and sub region where it is actually being exploited, which is the Niger Delta. And that's why I try to trace what is happening in the oil and gas sector from the national level and it being a blessing. And then it's a big cost to the people that the oil is found under their soil. If you look at the Niger Delta and the way it has been operated in the oil and gas sector and those in the industry, you will discover that the multinational oil companies that operate here actually, like you mentioned, connive with some of the local bourgeois to surcharge the people of the Niger Delta. And when we talk about crude oil thefts, you cannot devolve the fact that those who are in the oil and gas sector are aiding and abating this process. Oil theft is not something that the local people can actually be able to do without the connivance of the multinational oil companies that are operating here and even the security operators who are posted to provide security and prevent crude oil theft within the region because this oil we are talking about, the youths who are said to be involved in the additional refining after they steal the crude oil, they can really exploit this oil from the soil. They have to tap into the pipelines that the multinational oil companies have been able to use to drain the oil from the soil. So in that case, you have a kind of connive and you know about the issue in the Niger Delta, especially in the Delta State where a pipeline that has been operated for about nine years was found without the people that are involved actually talking about it. So these are some of the things that happen here. And when you see this kind of thing going on, then you can talk about a network of syndicates of people who have decided to come together to go into the crude oil theft that you see there. So I think Nigeria being a rentier state, whereby we depend on the renters, money that is paid by this foreign and multinational oil companies into their policies, they depend on this crude oil as the way they go. That is why it's even difficult to fight those who are involved in this, especially those who are also involved in this crude oil theft from the multinational oil company perspective. How do the boys get to know when pressure is moving? When crude is passing through the pipeline? How do they get to have the technology of tapping into the pipeline? A lot of these people give them information on what they do. So they are aiding and abetting this process and that is why the end products of this action boils down to the local people in the Niger Delta. Wherever you have the environment destroy, you have the water body destroy in such a way that fishermen are unable to fish. When they cast their nets, what they cast is oil instead of fish. And when the farmers go to the farm, they are unable to really be able to have good produce from the environment as a result of the impact of this. And all these are at the expense of the ordinary people. Where those who are involved in this are smiling to the bank with the money they have made from this process. So for those who are making money through this, especially the federal government of Nigeria that has 51 percent of stake in the oil and gas sector, oil is a perfect blessing to them. But for those who are in this and suffering as a result of this in the Niger Delta, including the Oguni area, you see that oil is a big cost to them. How do we be able to balance it? We are talking about energy transition today. We cannot transit to clean and renewable energy or even go into agriculture that oil replaced in the 60s and 50 when it was found without raising money from the sale of good oil that we have today because today we are not refining within the country. This is what we are expecting. We are talking about the protocol refinery to come on board. We are talking about the dangota to come on board. But then those two refineries cannot be able to give the country what we actually need in terms of the resources that will be needed to transit the economy. So we need to be able to look in ways and see how we can cascade money that will be coming from these sources to develop the economy. Because agriculture, which is the main state of the economy before there was a discovery of oil, contributed to our GDP and today you see the greatest GDP contributor. So we need to go back and develop that. And the source that this money will come from is the sale of crude oil that we are having in the country. So we need to see how we'll be able to raise money from this source and be able to develop other sources like agriculture, manufacturing sector, and of course try as much as possible to invest more in the energy sector, especially the solar and the clean and renewable energy that the country is moving to today. If we are able to put all this together, I believe that we can be able to leave oil in the soil. Other countries today are moving away from fossil fuel, but Nigeria cannot move away from fossil fuel for the next 20, 30 years because the blueprint has not been put in place in such a way that we can move away from fossil fuel and we are able to succeed as a country. So as a country, we need to put all these things into perspective and work towards the possibility of being able to address the issues and corruption that we have in the energy sector so that we can be able to move away with the other parts of the world, with the direction that the world is going now. It sounds more to me like you're making a presentation to people who have no idea how to run this sector, for a sector that's been running for so long and for governments who have asked us to give them a chance to run this country. Obviously, I don't believe that Nigeria doesn't have people who have the wherewithal or the know-how as to put those things that you have recommended in place. So my question again is, if we have experts within and without this country, we have governments who have asked us to give them an opportunity to run us and run this sector, not doing these things, not because they do not know what it takes to do it, but because they've not done it. Why do you think that these things that you're saying, the ifs and ifs, it's going to come into fruition any time soon, even in that 30 years? The greatest problem we have in this country is the problem of leadership. If we can get our leadership right, then we'll be able to fix our problem. That is why as we are facing the 2023 defection next month. I'm not in any way holding brief for corrupt leadership or bad leadership or bad governance, but I'm saying we always are saying we need good leadership, good leadership, but these people come from amongst us. What about the followers? Are we sitting on our hands? The followers have a role to play. Like now, next month of February 25th, we are trying to recruit our leader. It is in the hands of the followers to recruit this leader through the ballot box. So if those who are going to vote who see the possibility of being able to recruit the person or the leaders that will be able to drive this process, then we can get this process right, because a situation whereby we are trying to even move away from post-safeware and Nigeria as a country has not even been able to actualize itself in terms of really being able to maximize the post-safeware that is found under its soil. Then it becomes a problem. Nigeria has not been able to refine product that can be used locally. Today when we talk about oil types in the Niger Delta and some of these issues that are going on like corruption in this sector, there are ways that we can fight and win this war. But then the followers and the leader, they have a role to play. But more power is there in the hands of the leaders who need to summon the political will to be able to drive this problem. For example, we are talking about addressing food oil types in the Niger Delta. We are talking about how to bring about the modular refinery that should be able to address this issue to minimize food oil type and environmental pollution, including soot that we suffer. Government is not giving it attention. What does it take for them to drive that process? We have also proposed this presidential artisanal food oil refining development initiative, which is a way of legalizing artisanal refining after modifying it to be more environmental friendly. Government is also taking step, but nothing has been done so far to address it. We need to be able to address this issue in a way that when the citizens suggest ways of addressing it, we have experts in the oil and gas industry, we put our heads together to see how we can address our problem. It is only when we can do this that we can look at a holistic and collective solution to the problem. But when we fail to address this problem, because our leaders are also not being able to drive the process of addressing the problem, then I think we'll be having the issue that we are having at the north side. So we need to be able to see how we can work together, synergize to address the problem that we have in the oil and gas sector. Corruption is one of the things that is driving this process and we need to see how we can collectively fight all these issues that we have so that we can address the issues in the oil and gas sector, move the country from post-safety to clean and renewable energy and agriculture for us to have a better nation, a better environment. It's still plus politics and we're looking at the energy sector and what the government is doing. We still are being joined by fine phase Dumnamene, his Executive Director, Youth and Environmental Advocacy Centre. We're also being joined by Comrade Aquaberry Celestin. He is the National Coordinator of the Goonies Solidarity Forum and we're being joined by Olaleko Ige. He is a journalist. Now before we went on that break, we were talking about concerted efforts to change the situation of things in the oil and gas sector. But let me come back to you, Mr. Aquaberry. Let's talk about, you know, the issue of artisanal refining. I want to go all the way back to when we started having the situation of the soot in river state, where we had a particulate matter in the air. I'm sure it's still there and mostly was traced to the artisanal refining which we call bullfire, you know, in river state. I remember Vice President Yamio Shibando at some point saying that these artisanal refineries would be one way or the other, you know, converted to, you know, modular refineries if I'm getting it right. But nothing has been done in that regard and the people in river state still are breathing in that particulate matter. There is a government in the state, of course, who is supposedly to be pushing this at the federal level, but I don't think that that's on the front burner for Governor Wike. Again, for the people who are the ones who are the receiving end. What are you doing, especially for you who's an environmental advocate? What's been done in that regard? Well, without playing the devil's advocate or defending artisanal refineries, I think we are always blaming the victim here. We're always blaming the victim. Before we started seeing what you call artisanal refining, we've always had gas players that have been polluting our environment and everything that we have. We've also had several fire outbreaks from oil fields that were wrong for like one or two months. You saw the Koloama issue and several others that were wrong only for like two months and nobody will come to copy until the oil river is soaked with crude. So what the people are refining, what you call artisanal refining, what they are company with is not up to 0.5%. 99.5% of what is polluting our environment come from gas clearing, which of course the cuts are stopped. But the oil companies and the government officials have refused to obey the law because they control the government. They could choose who to be monitored and who to stay alive. They can choose to kick and throw and all they are mean. So I don't want us to do much about that. I'm talking about Osimba and Joe and Modela, we have government that love to talk. Every year they debate on past budgets as a ritual for education, for health care, for every other thing. Have you seen health care in Nigeria? Mr. President goes to London for health care, so through health care. The past budget for education billions. Have you seen any university campus anywhere being better? The past billion for electricity, is there any community that has electricity apart from water? So we have government that talks and they don't do. And I had one fan face was talking about crude oil theft and what so ever. We should not sugarcoat these issues. You have a gank of thieves in government and a gank of thieves in their own industry that go to bed together in the night. So when you have the two set of thieves together, you have a very worst case scenario, such as we have in Nigeria today. The vessels they are using to steal crude oil, it's not a small taxi or KK Napaibla, you can hide in somebody's compartment. No, it's a huge vessel that before it enters our waterway. The authority knows that so so vessel is coming. And where it is bet. And to be there for like two to three months to load it full to the brim. That is the cancer who are cutting daylight of us. They know. You think that those things will be happening for nine years and nobody will know. They know. But you're always blaming the victim. The community people are the victim and we are always blaming them. The day the government officials and operators of the oil industry want crude oil to stop, it will stop. They are the people still in the 99 percent. They only allow one percent to justify all the processes they are committing. But Mr. Pobre, I'm so sorry to talk over you. I'm so sorry to talk over you. I just want to come in there. As much as you know, you keep saying that we're blaming the victim, how long are we going to keep playing the victim? And from what you're saying, it makes it seem like the hands of the average Nigerian is tied. And so we have to just keep waiting until government decides if they're going to get their acts right. And how long can that be? How long can we go on like that? And how many more people are we going to lose hands and property that we got? The people need to take their destiny in their hands. The Ugandan people got up. Yeah, we paid dearly for it. But we got up and we stopped them. We stopped oil production in Oguni since 1993. Until today, nobody has dared to do it. I know they are passing through the bank doors. Even after this money, today is the 30th anniversary of Oguni Day, the commemoration of Oguni Day, where I saw a jingle sponsored by NMPC. NMPC does not love us. They partner we share to key Oguni people. They partner we share to pollute our environment and destroy our livelihood. So they cannot claim to be loving us this money. But they are only doing that because they want to pass through the bank doors to come and take our oil and we will not allow it. Because oil, as we made a cost to the Ugandan people, if it is not a cost to us, it is a cost to us and we will not allow any production of oil in our soil anymore. So the community people need to take their destiny in their hands. In fact, our fishing business has been completely eroded and destroyed. Our farming business is gone. Not that the people are predominantly fish and mayhem farmers. We cannot longer farm. We cannot longer fish because the gas that are flared in very close proximity to human habitation creates 24-hour daylight in the river where the fishes do not stay. So fish is now migrate to the deeper ocean, Atlantic, where we don't have a fishing stroller. So poverty, hunger are second. The people need to take back these territories, chase away these thieves. They are thieves who have come to poke our wounds and put paper in it. Our wounds are bleeding and they are poking paper in it. These guys should live. They are in nothing. We are benefiting from oil. Okay. All right. Back to you. Let me come to you. During the campaign, when the beginning of the campaign, I think it was the Nigerian Bar Association that invited presidential candidates from different political parties when they were having their annual general meeting to speak on their plans for Nigeria. And I do remember vividly the Social Democratic Party presidential candidate Prince Adebayo raised the issue of oil theft and how many barrels is being stolen every single day. And it became a very big topic and it's still being discussed as we speak today. And then fast forward, all of a sudden the NNPC seems to be walking nice and day and then found an oil vessel or pipelines that were leading to an oil vessel. All of a sudden it appeared from nowhere. And while Nigerians were still trying to contemplate, the army decided to destroy that oil vessel. And I remember the chief of the army saying that there was nothing to investigate. What does that really say about how serious we are in terms of fighting corruption, especially in this sector which we again, I'd like to reiterate, have not been able to make any money from in the last year. Olaleko, can you hear me? I don't think we have Olaleko. Olaleko, can you hear me, please? I think we've lost him. So I'm going to toss that question to your fine face. Let's see if you can do justice. Well, you may need to recast the question again. I was focusing on you giving it to you. Yes. So I was talking about the fact that the SDP presidential candidate had raised the alarm about the oil thefts that's happening and how much of our crude is disappearing from the country. And he pointed fingers at the federal government and the NNPC as people who knew about this theft and were covering it up. And then, of course, I'm talking about the fact that the army had destroyed that oil vessel without any investigation and the army chief had said there was no need for an investigation. So how do we deal with that corruption if the people who are law enforcement, they themselves, have their hands stained? Yes, I think the SDP presidential candidate is 100% correct to say that the federal government and, of course, NNPC know about the crude oil theft going on. They have information about that. Look, the presidency, let me say the president is the chief secrecy officer of this country, is the all-knowing human being, as far as Nigeria is concerned, because he gets briefs from the nooks and crannies of this country every day. He gets a briefing from the secrecy officer every corner. The NNPC, they are the umpire in charge of our crude oil in this country. They have information about those who are involving this. They can deny the fact that they don't have information. They can also deny the fact that maybe in one way or the other, they are not allegedly part and parcel of what is going on. Illegal bunkering and crude oil theft using vessels is not the business of poor people. It's not the business of poor you. It is big man business. And it is only those that are in government, those in the secrecy sectors, that can actually be able to stay crude oil. So to a very large extent, people that are key in our security, architectural security system, they are aware of this. Look, do you know what it means for a batch, a vessel, to travel into Nigeria, into Nigeria, territorial waters, load crude oil in weeks and months, and go back undetected? It's not possible. That can only happen where there are no human beings. I understand that we have ungovernable spaces and ungoverned spaces in this country. And I understand that immigration have said that we have about 1,409 illegal routes into this country. But I know quite well that vessel of that nature that is said to be the size of a football pitch, or even two times that, cannot come into a country, load crude oil, and go back without the people that are overseeing their affairs of the country, being aware of that. So it is a network. In fact, it's just like we are still having... I don't think that we can hear you any more. Fine face, we lost your audio, if you can hear us. Fine face. Yeah, I can hear you. All right, go ahead. We lost your audio. Yeah, so I can say that what is going on in the Gulf of Guinea is very, very serious. And I think that the security operatives are allegedly aware of it because they cannot have a system whereby you can have vessels coming to Nigeria, load crude oil, and go back with it. They've been detected. And as a way of mitigating this, which is happening, we at Advocacy Center, we have developed what we call network against organized crime in Nigeria and the Gulf of Guinea. And we have proposed it to the federal government at the National Council on Hydrocarbon in Minanaja State that happens. We should be able to work on these processes and be able to put together a network that will enable us to share information in such a way that those who come into the country to load our crude oil and go away with it cannot longer be able to do so. So if you don't have a government take action on some of these things, then they cannot deny the fact that they are aiding and abating these processes. And I think the bulk of work is on the table of security operatives that have been charged with the responsibility of policing and providing security for our pipelines and in the oil and gas sector. Mr. Poverty, recently, the federal government, just before the close of 2022, the federal government had earmarked almost a trillion, if not more, to walk on the refineries in the country. And of course, they're still paying salaries to people walking in the refineries that are not refining anything. Because again, as we all know, these products are sent outside of the country. We paid foreign currency to refine it. And then we still bring it back into the country, paying monies for it to come in. Now, before we go into the fact that we're having problems with fuel, let's talk about why government is still fixing refineries that are not working. And then every time we talk about refining, we point to Dengote's refinery, which we do not know when it's going to be ready, but that's not necessarily a government refinery. So why do we have refineries that are not working? Well, I told you before that you are dealing with a gang of thieves, and that is you should call them by their name. Hence, we will call them daylight robbers. And that is who they are. It is very easy to wake up a man who is sleeping. I've always said that. But to wake up a man who is pretending to sleep is difficult. You will poke him and poke him, you will not wake up, you are pretending to sleep. How do you even think about that government will wake up year after year, budget billions of dollars to service refineries and it's not working? They are telling you lies. You look at the set of people that are within the NFPC and the presidency. They are from one section of the country that does not even feel the pain that we are feeling here. All of them have refineries in neighboring countries. They are the people bringing in these vessels to seek good oil, so these refineries refine the fruit and say it at cultural prices to Nigeria. They only refineries around. So they will never allow refineries in Nigeria to work. They will not allow the people to have electricity because they are the people in potential into this country. And the people have just become their market. They want to see every person dead. And it is so sad that, you know, they continue to amass wealth because that is money, money that they will not even spend. They continue to see and supply money. Some are buried in places they don't even know again. So you are dealing with daylight robbers who know exactly what they are doing. They are not, they are thieves. They know what they are doing. Okay. Not that they don't know that the refineries will not be working. No. They don't allow those people, they are paid salaries, so that, you know, pay not like, like, I give you my share. You have my share now. All the money. You give me one body. What they are giving to those workers? I don't want money. And they take the whole share and the rest are the remaining money. They know what they are doing. Wow. Fine face, let me come back to you until we are able to get a La Lé Con back. Let's talk about the issue of, you know, fuel scarcity. Just before the close of November into December, I'm sure that several people, especially in Lagos, had queues, unending queues to buy fuel. And of course, the price has gone up to the roof. Transportation has, you know, the price of transportation has more than doubled. And I mean, including market prices, everything has literally hit the roof. And that's because of one thing, inability to get fuel. And let's not forget, before we go talk about the, you know, the grid that has collapsed so many times, we've been unable to power our houses. So again, there's a serious reliance on fuel. Now, recently, the Burundian government visited Mr. President, if not yesterday. And they talked about the fact that they would need Nigeria to support them in getting fuel so that they can deal with the fuel situation. And our President, Mr. General Mohammad Bahari, well, he did say to the Burundian government that the NNPC will see to the issue of their fuel. And Nigeria will be supporting them with fuel. But it beats me because we're yet to be able to deal with the issue of fuel scarcity in 2023 in January. And our President is assuring Burundi that they will have fuel. Where is it going to come from? I think it is unfortunate and a bad mission that the Burundian delegation led to Nigeria. I think they didn't do their analysis, they are experts and strategy didn't advise them politely before they come to Nigeria to seek for fuel. How can you come to a country who has not been able to produce fuel to make its domestic market have sufficient product to come and give you fuel in your country? How can you come to a country where none of the refineries are working to seek for fuel in your country? How can you come to a country that import fuel from other countries and the importation is not, the import for is not even enough locally to come and give you fuel in your country? How can you come to a country that has refused to license modular refineries to contribute to the production of fuel oil to give you fuel in your country. How can you come to a country where every product, every food oil that drops has been taken out to refine and then they buy it to come and give you food for your country? How can you come to a country that refine, that buy, import this food and the petroleum product into the country and pay subsidy to come and give you food for your country? It's not possible. You can't give what you do not have. So the president was very tactical because he believes that the Burundian delegation didn't really think well before coming to meet Nigeria, seeking for help for petroleum product because Nigeria does not have. So what he simply said was that NFPC will see to it. How can NFPC see to it? NFPC does not even have solution to the problem they are seeking in Nigeria. So they can't give what they do not have. Nigeria does not have what is even sufficient for it. How much more being able to give it out? If they are talking about they need food oil from Nigeria, Nigeria can look into that and give them food oil. But if they are talking about this product, it cannot work. Nigerians have been suffering for the past two months now. We have been suffering to just get food into our cars. A liter of petroleum now at the finish line is over 400 naira in some area, a little less in some area, and long queues at the filling station. Many Nigerians are unable to travel to their community because of the high cost of food. And you are coming at that particular point in time, seeking help from the country to give you food. Where will they get it from? Nigeria do not have. And Nigeria cannot give what they do not have. The presidency referring them to NFPC, NFPC cannot also be able to respond to it. How are they going to be able to respond to it? So I think it is a part mission that they came on and Nigeria will not be able to do it. Even when the refineries come on stream, Potaka refinery, Wari refinery, and of course the Kathmandu refinery, even the Dangotai refinery, they will not be able to even exports a drop of oil outside the country. The only crude oil, I mean petroleum can take outside Nigeria is maybe those that are stolen or those that are smuggling this crude oil outside the country. That is the one they can take out because all these refineries put together cannot even be able to refine what Nigeria needs locally, how much more having some to export. I understand we are even exporting electricity that we don't have sufficient in the country. These are some of the anomalies you see within the system. But I think that what we need to do as a people is to be able to satisfy Nigerians, provide enough for the country to be able to run. Nigeria needs energy to be able to run. The poverty in Nigeria today can be reduced if we have steady electricity and we have cheaper petroleum product because we have enough crude that can give us this. So in as much that we are unable to meet some of these conditionalities, then it is difficult for Nigeria to even be able to grow properly because energy is key to drive some of these processes. And as a contribution to this, we are also trying to see how we can push to talk about solar in communities. Nigeria should try as much as they can to be able to address its internal contributions in the oil and gas sector before they can talk about trying to offer help to other countries of the world. To you, Mr Kwaaburi, Nigeria's available power generation capacity actually fell by 981.8 megawatts between 2015 and I think August of 2022, despite the fact that over 1.51 trillion Naira intervention in the sector was done by the federal government since the current administration came on board. The national grid, I must say, and I'm sure that you are aware, has collapsed 98 times on that President Muhammad al-Buhari's government and power generation has been on the lowest of lows. For a country, again, that is willing to service other nations as opposed to giving its people the best, is there an end in sight? Because I wonder if we are unable to generate power for our country, and then of course we're talking about poverty, we're talking about businesses that are being destroyed, we're looking for foreign investments, but under what circumstances can those investments and businesses run if we cannot even power our country? And of course, it turns into these around the corner, politicians are here asking us to vote for them. What questions should we be asking them? Well, do we have any questions to ask them? You don't have any questions to ask them because from time to time, the story has been said. So what we need to do is to punish those that we can punish with our pvc. For instance, another opportunity to then discuss one or two months from now. I think Nigeria needs to come out. There are people that should not even be talking about contesting elections anymore, judging from what we are seeing, from the Buhari administration. You have an outstanding president that every month is out of the country, and you have those who they are not even there yet, and every now and then, they are outside the country. Apart from, I think Peter Obida is a rat, I think he's basically based in Dubai. He's always out of the country for one treatment or the other. So Nigerians need to see this opportunity. I've told you before when you talk about electricity, we don't have another not that we cannot do it, but the political will is not there because those that are importing generators into the country are those in charge of the power ministry. Those that own refineries around the sub-region are those that should be fixing our refineries. And just like Fanfe said, internal contradiction. You have a country that is forwarded of oil, but it is oil that we import. The transportation system that is a problem in this country, we have built a railway to Niger Republic. We don't have electricity, but we supply electricity to neighboring countries. You see Nigeria sent people out to go and monitor some countries to ensure that they have free and fair elections while we have inconclusive elections here every time and reach elections. You have Nigeria that will rush to any country that is equal to say, hey, you must govern your people away when we have the worst form of governance here in this country. So these are the contradictions that voters need to, you know, take advantage of these coming elections. So in a time we have to say, if we perish, we perish. We don't want this. We don't want that anymore because I mean, these people will not be born again. These are people that have been within the collector of power all these years. They are not new. So what new thing will they bring? Okay. Great question. Now finally, Fanfe's, the government has said that retaining petrol subsidy, which is my final question, in 2023 will cost Nigeria nearly 6.7 trillion Naira. Now let me remind you, Occupy Nigeria was a thing and most of the people who led that particular protest were the likes of the current Kaduna State Governor, Malam Nasser El-Rufai, President Mohamed Abu Hari, and several other people who run in government circles. And today we're, you know, somewhat on the precipice. Oh, should we take out subsidy or not? Oh, let's bring it back. It seems to be a game of ping-pong. But what is best for Nigeria going forward, for us to be able to regulate this sector properly? What is best for Nigeria is for those that are in power to be able to fix our refineries before they talk about subsidy removal. The refineries will need to be fixed. License for modular refineries will need to be issued. I am not really supporting oil extraction because the world is moving away from that. But for now, we need to be able to extract the oil, use it to solve the problem we have, and then be able to leave the oil in the soil. So as much as we can for us to address this problem, those who are in power today are those who are thinking that fixing this problem would be easier for them. And they wrote on that to power. So they should be able to address this issue. As we talk about subsidy removal, Nigerians should not be left in the hands of these exploiters that are importers, that will be able to fix a thousand Naira per liter of fuel for Nigerians. Because you remember when we went on this Occupy Nigeria protest years back, it was just a little increase below 100 Naira. We went on the street. But today, Nigerians are buying fuel over 400 Naira or a little less. And quietly, people are going by that and not even finding it to buy. So if they leave us in the hands of these marketers, I believe that we are going to not be able to fix ourselves again or be able to do anything that we need petroleum product for because they are going to exploit Nigeria. So they should be able to fix the refineries. They should be able to give license for modular refinery. Vice President Yemio Sibangio came in 2017 and talked about the modification of artisanal refining by giving them a modular refinery license. We are from cooperative societies for this year to receive those licenses. But today, nothing has happened. So I think that they need to be able to address the issues that we had before they can open up the doors for us to have this subsidy removed. If subsidy is removed today, even in Aso Rock, it will be difficult for them to be able to operate. So I think the only thing that Nigerians are benefiting from this process is this little token they pay on this subsidy. But if they have decided to remove it, they should make it in such a way that we will be able to bear the consequences of that. Because there is nothing you do today that does not have to do with powering your system for you to be able to do it. Well, I must say thank you. Fine Face Dumnan Mene is the Executive Director of Youth and Environmental Advocacy Centre. We want to say thank you to Comrade Celestin Akboburi, who is obviously of the Ogoni Forum and he is also the National Coordinator of Ogoni Solidarity Forum. We also want to say thank you to Lale Con Ighe, who was a journalist who fell off amid the conversation. But I want to say thank you gentlemen for being part of the conversation and I hope that it doesn't stop here. We'll continue within our communities to spread the word. Thank you and happy new year to you and everyone that watch this video. Thank you very much. Thank you all for, thank you viewers. Thank you very much. Thank you. Well, that's it on the show tonight. We'll be back tomorrow talking for development. I'm Mary Anakon, but don't forget you need to go get your PVC. PVC collection ends on the 22nd of January. Find where you registered. Go pick your PVC because that's your passport to a new Nigeria. I'm Mary Anakon. Have a good evening. Tonight we take a look at the energy sector in Nigeria as the power grid has collapsed 98 times under the Bihari administration and amid 1.52 trillion Naira bailouts and the fuel-scrushed situation, even as New Bank threatens a nationwide strike. Again, the National Security Advisor, Major General Baba Ghanam Munguno, forecast an estimated $23 billion loss this year if Proudhar theft remains unchecked. This is Plus Politics. I'm Mary Anakon.