 Welcome to The Advocate on Plus TV Africa, where your panellists discuss thought-provoking topics in an atmosphere of seriousness, decisiveness and laughter. Here we call a speed a speed and like we say here, no holds bird. Today I'm advocating for the inclusion of people with disabilities in all walks of life. Raymond is here to tell us about Nigeria's elusive search for nationhood and finally, any time he's talking about the various social cultures in Nigeria. Stay with us, we'll be right back. Physical disability is not in ability. James was physically impaired after a near-fatal rude accident. He has lived his life to the fullest capacity, living with the challenges of accessibility in a society that treats disabled people like third-class citizens. It is reported that there are over 27 million Nigerians living with some form of disability, with physical impairment coming in at the third most common disability. The World Health Organization's 2011 World Disability Report states that about 15 percent of Nigerians' population, or at least 27 million people, have a disability. And many of them face several human rights abuses, including stigma, discrimination, violence, a lack of access to healthcare, housing and education. And even in 2021, this number has not changed much. As though this is not enough bias, they are unable to get into a building in most cities in the country, thereby limiting their quality of life. Now on January 23rd, 2018, Nigerian's president, Mohammed Buhari, signed into law the Disability Prohibition Act after years of advocacy and protests by advocacy group. Of note in the bill is that the act prohibits all forms of discrimination against people with disabilities. If an individual is found violating this law, he or she will pay a fine of 100,000 Naira or a term of six months imprisonment. The law also imposes several penalties across other provisions of the law and covers for many areas of infringement, including authorization for buildings without disability access, five percent of employment opportunities should go to disabled people, ability to litigate against any discrimination, and section 31 of the act provides for the National Commission for Persons with Disabilities who will enforce and promote the rights of disabled people. It's pertinent to note that it has taken almost 20 years for this bill to be signed, and I dare say this gives an indication of how discriminatory we are, as though a disabled person is somewhat a lesser citizen. Bills and regulations are only the first step, but as a society and people we must have a consciousness of how our ignorance and lackadisical attitude limits a significant population of our country. When was the last time you hired or referred a disabled person for a job? How many disabled people work in your organization? Have you tried to go into a building and realize that there's no wheelchair ramp, disabled parking, lift, toilet or other facilities for such people? Disabilities should not be a limitation in this country. We need to make a leapfrog attempt to better support this demographic to unlock untapped potential in 15 percent of our population. I must say it is quite a touching topic you have picked on to talk about today, and I will be honest and confess that the general reaction and the feeling that comes up within me, and I'm sure maybe a number of people is first of all to want to shy away from it, to kind of recoil and you know how we are quite religious as a people that, oh no, you know that sense of wanting it not to come near you, but it's a topic and a conversation that is sensitive and urgent and a call to action because the line where you actually ask the question how many disabled people have been referred or even employed and I did a mental recap and I really can't recall working with any disabled person in a long time and this is a career that's probably spent over 15 years and I was like wow this is not really very encouraging and I guess I dare say it's a good call to action for all of us to take note of us as people. I don't know, I'm sure maybe everyone had a different set of reactions from my reaction but I definitely was quite, you know, well I couldn't have, anybody should have a different reaction because the reality just stands at you in the face. Just like you started pointing out the last line of advocacy that is so searching for each and every one of us out there. When was the last time you hired someone or when you would find someone who is disabled to any organisation? So that speaks to our collective responsibility in this social business as it were and the number she ruled out there 25% of Nigerian population that's 15 years, that means at least one out of every 10% is disabled in them. That puts in context the number, the shared number of these group of persons in this society and we can't afford to actually not put, not factor the peculiarities of their condition in social planning and everything in telecommunications. Even before the outcome, the coming into the signing into law of the disability legislation, there's actually a step in progress after in long time where these group of persons have been limited to just advocating within their smaller groups. That legislation for the first time has put that issue in the front burner of national conversation. And also I'd like to point out that in recent times I've been able to notice some form of institutional concern for people who are disabled. A case in point is this, recently the Nigeria Bar Association at the last NEC meeting, the M.B. President Mr. Louis Dapata created a whole forum for disabled persons. That's interesting, that's fantastic. A section of persons living with disabilities. I would put it in a good profession. It would cater to people in this group so that they would organize for themselves and also push advocacy to better make their interest head. And then also the electoral act that is being proposed to be signed into law any day has also made provision for persons living with disabilities in polling centers, words and commission centers. So I'm beginning to see a kind of institutional awareness about the plight of this category of S.A.C. in society. But I'd like to point it out, the conversation will continue. And on our own parts, we have to do our own part of the job by actually going out of the way to make deliberate steps towards advising organizations. How about we employ someone who is disabled? Here are some of the two steps that go a long way here. Creating that sense of inclusion which has been lacking for a long time. You know, this particular advocacy for me, for me, I want the burden to be on us. I want it to be on us. We have a lot of rules and regulations in this country, but it all comes down to enforcement. But the truth is that there's a role of the government in nation building, right? And then there's a role of citizens. If we look at 15% of the demographic and we say, oh, because the person is on a wheelchair, then suddenly we forget the person's intellect. We forget the person's ability to contribute intelligently to conversations and to projects. Yes, I know that there are limitations of working in specific roles by virtue of their disability. However, what about everything except the actual physical activity? A lot of value comes from the strategy point of view, from the planning point of view. Execution is last mile, really. So there's no reason why organizations shouldn't start to employ people like that. I don't remember working with any disabled person. And for me, I'm like, why? I know people that are on a wheelchair and they are smarter than most people that I know. When you engage them in conversations, they have phenomenal ideas, but these doors have just been shut to them. And so this particular advocacy, it's on us. We need to start to have, you know, we can't continue to pretend that it doesn't exist until it comes close to us, maybe somebody in our family and then suddenly we get angry, right? This whole, the whole purpose of this is that we are looking out for each other as citizens of this country. The government is not going to do anything for us. And this government has nothing to do with it. And I think really maybe one thing, one area that would really help is to actually remove the stigmatization. You know how it is that already people just feel like a person with a disability should be stigmatized? It almost like, like something you said that struck me, hit me, that the disability, physical disability does not actually take away from their capacity or their thinking or their abilities to do things. At the minute we can begin to push that as people and make it from boner, it might help with removing the stigma because I have come to realize in advocacy that sometimes if you're not able to solve the benefit or the value of something, advocating for it becomes slightly more difficult. But just as you put it that way, hit me that, you know what? They're actually smart. It's a physical disability, not a mental disability. And it only prevents some activities like, okay, entering into a place. And good thing, technology, virtual working, those are all values that add to your intellectual space. I'm telling you. So I think all disability advocates have a field day pushing for disabled people to be able to end more in the workplace. Of course, the point she made about the fact that they're being disabled do not take away their intellectual makeup. There is this popular saying that disability is not inability. We have seen that being displayed in a very graphic way in the Paralympics. That very true. Very true. Very true. Very true. How they have, with that disability, they're doing exploits. So that means these group of persons, we are no better than them. Because for now, we still have our limbs and whatever they have. We could also be like them in the next moment. So it's always good to actually put them in the front, and share these thoughts. I also, now that you talked about limbs, what we can also even start to do is when organizations are talking about corporate social responsibility and they have budgets, what about we even put this money towards provision of prosthetic limbs for people like this? Yeah, but you know there, organizations that are doing that already. But those are NGOs, are they not? Well, true that. And so you talk about corporate, maybe that's a call to the corporate societies or that. What are you doing with your CSR budget? Are you funding? Yes. Good. Good. Good. Good idea. Good idea. Good conversation. Up next is Raymond. Stay with us. Nigeria's illusive search for nationhood. If anyone was under any illusion of Nigeria's nation state status, the Muhammad-Buhari administration in its six years so far would have helped to cure that illusion, even if in the most unfortunate of circumstances. It is not that Nigerians ever had a consensus about the idea of Nigeria as a geographical space where the potentials of each member of the diverse nationalities comprised within it can thrive as members of a common national destiny, not at all. Even in its infancy, the young Nigeria was described as no more than a geographical expression by one of her founding fathers. What the Buhari regime has come to make us realize is how divided we are having done a bad job of mismanaging or managing our diversity in the last six years. Some critics have had to argue that no other time was Nigeria so divided in her history than now. And you couldn't have but agree with them. I was moved to deep reflection recently against the backdrop of all the depressing news in the country. And I couldn't have but come to the conviction that Nigeria might just be battling a crisis of nationhood. A situation which reinforces the convictions of separatist agitators who would rather the divergent nationalities constituted in Nigeria go their separate ways. The North South divide has grown so wide in recent months owing to inability of leaders and followers to reach a consensus on critical national debates such as system of animal husbandry, power rotation, freedom of speech, etc. The alleged intertument mentality of the North and the seemingly marginalization of the South, particularly the Southeast, has created a sense of exclusion whereby some people are seen as less Nigerian than the others. One of the unintended consequences of this social disequilibrium is the emergence of the wave versus them mentality, where truth and objectivity is now a function of group and tribal solidarity. Amidst the bedlam over the suspicion of Twitter, I noticed with concern the conspiratorial silence of the North and her so-called intelligentsia, while the South was agog with condemnation of it. On the other hand, I also observed the rearrest of Mazinam Bikanu and the raid on Sunday Ibuhus residents were hailed by the North while the South expectedly rose in condemnation of same. One question that has emerged from all of this is how do we build a nation? Perhaps another way to phrase the question might as well be are we supposed to be a nation? For if after 60 years of independence, the two distinct protectorates that became the country Nigeria as we know it today are unable to achieve a pan-consensus on critical and basic issues of nationhood, then it may not be out of place to take a second look at this colonial experiment. It has also been suggested in some quotas that since the clannish nature of President Mohammed Buhari is largely responsible for this level of division in the land. Working towards a post-Buhari era should be the collective preoccupation of all and sundry. But whether that would not amount to kicking the proverbial can down the road is another thing altogether. I don't know if it's be discouraging to say that I do not know what it would take for us to actually be a nation. I'm not of the school of thought that there should be a separation because I'm not exactly sure what purpose it would serve. Whether or not we like it, all the regions in this country have benefited one thing or the other from the other regions. However, it's a real thing. People are genuinely concerned about their place in Nigeria. Genuinely so. I grew up in the South South. I'm from the South East. But I was never aware of my tribe until I moved to the Southwest. And this is still the South. So that makes you a bit concerned because the first thing you see is you see my tribe before you see me. Before you see what I have to offer. Before you see the value I bring to anything. And that's the same sentiment across all the different tribes of the country. And so now all these things that are happening is when something happens that is against the sovereignty of the nation or a national problem, people are not looking at the problem. People are looking at who did it. If some boys were caught doing drugs, the first thing people are looking at What tribe? Where is it from? So we're so divided as a nation that I really don't know how we're going to get past it. I don't know how. I think honestly that for, like you said, for as long as I've known, as long as I've lived, we've always been about tribe. I'm not sure that we have ever truly been without our tribes at the back of our minds. I remember that, you know, I always knew I was Yoruba. I knew that. Okay. And even within being a Yoruba person, there were times you were told, oh, you can't marry from this tribe. I mean, you can't marry from this part of this tribe. Imagine that kind of issue. So we will now go to the bigger picture of Nigeria. And they are told, oh, you can't marry someone from that part of Nigeria or someone from that part of Nigeria. Those things like this or situations where you actually hear, we know what we're growing up. We used to have all those funny things where they would say, oh, these people eat food and they don't drink water or these people use their feet to kick their parents or those of that was, you know, so many snide remarks that we grew up with literally speaking. And so that begs the question, did we really have a nation? And then there was something that was said that, that you said about the experiment, the social experiment by colonial masters. I don't know whether it's time to start advocating for separation. I don't know whether it's time to advocate for whatever it is that we're advocating for. But one thing that I do know is that as human beings, we cannot do without one another. So whether we're going into different nations or we're staying together, we have to come into a system of governance that's going to be profitable for us. That's going to make sense so that people can have a sense of identity. And like Uchie rightly said, a lot of young people don't know what it means to be called Nigerian again. They don't know what it means to have a sense of nationhood. And indeed, maybe we are just throwing the proverbial can down the road. And I don't know what it is. It's certainly sometimes a depressing topic. I totally agree with both of you. Let me just bring the governance and leadership dimension to the debate. Because I found out that the Buhari government has to a large extent helped to fund the embass of the division that we are witnessing today. I know Nigeria has not been, well, not been that united, but the deliberate steps of this government has to a large extent forced that sense of exclusion. We are by some position now, okay, I don't understand what is going on here with a part of this country. So since we understand that how elusive this can be, what it means is that it even takes more deliberate leadership steps from people who elect into power, who will be conscious of the pluralistic nature of the Nigerian society and try, as much in fact, the frameworks of the constitution, they were not fools when the inarticulation 14, subsection 2A, that this was the federal character. It was in the consciousness of the nature of the country. Yes, of that unification. Whereby for there to be that sense of nationhood, every person should be, should be seen to be involved in the process. Seen to be in the operative world. Yes, because when there is not the case, pretty much everything crumbles because everything has to rest on. There has to be a nation before any other thing can happen. So it might be building right from here to wherever, when the people in the country are not actually happy being in it. But do you think that the whole concept of federal character has actually helped with regards to development of our nation? I will answer in this way. People have argued that should we do federal character for the sake of it, but my response is we can actually get meritocracy within the framework of federal character principle. Recent, interesting that we're having this conversation and I just remembered something that was said now. I was on my status before this conversation occurred. There was a person that was talking about the issue of Nigeria and how, okay, so when you get qualified, you have a degree, you have your muscles and everything. As a person from any part of Nigeria, are you going to apply for a job? Are you told, oh, sorry, maybe you need to go and get some other things. While somebody else who's from the, from maybe from Northern region of Nigeria goes there and the person is like, oh, whatever qualification or coming and then gets the job, makes money from the job and then is able to further push to further their education. But the point that the person in which was very unusual was actually equal to the southern part of Nigeria that in other, in the northern part of Nigeria, you find that people, it's literally like a communal sense of, of, of, of, um, engagement. And the person was pushing for the fact that, I mean, totally away from governance and nationhood, but I, it struck me because one thing I have seen, like I said when I started was that even within, uh, within, uh, within Nigeria and within the different tribes, we have those things that how many of us actually really truly like, you know, build each other or pull each other back. How about that sense of communalism? Now this is talking about federal character and meritocracy because you find that one of the things that happened was that in the federal character system, we're a part of Nigeria and I'm very careful not to do the North South divide because I literally avoid those kinds of conversations. But we do know what we're talking about here. Where the standards for the, for meritocracy were not achievable, they literally just pulled themselves up. Yeah. And so in pulling themselves up and giving them a, giving themselves a leg up, they're able to finally bridge the gap. They have the edge. No, what you've done is one thing I have discovered is that we may not realize it, but it's, you know, there's something about strategy. So even if they came in from this level of understanding or my educational qualification was your school set within 15 to 20 years, that same person who entered the system with school set actually goes to school and gets to the highest level of their education and becomes competent. Well, maybe we said that with the fact that, okay, I've got my master's degree. I've gotten, I mean, I have a PhD and all that. But so maybe just maybe the federal character, because right now we don't have anything that's saying that anything is changing. So because we have to find a solution in the system we're in, maybe when I start to clam off at the fact that on my simple, very simple, non-governance ask, say, how about we start to look at how do we actually build ourselves with the marginalized, supposed marginalized people. So for that to happen, there has to be a complete change of mindset. Fantastic. You have to understand that, you know, let's use the regions. The Southeast already believes that they're marginalized from the top to the bottom. And so what they do and what, and I suppose every region is to say, okay, do you know what, where's the space that is my own that I can own? And so they'll focus on trade and commerce, right? And we'll not go after those opportunities that you speak about. So that bringing up is not going to happen. They would say, listen, that door has been closed to you by virtue of the way the country has been run for years. So why are you wasting your time? So go focus on your focus where you know that you're going to, you have an edge. So there's a complete mindset reorientation that needs to happen, right? I am a South, like I said, I'm a South Easterner and I've lived and worked in Lagos for a very long time. I'm always the probably the only South Easterner in a room. Many times because they're like, those doors are being closed to us, unfortunately, mentally. So we need to start to re-educate people. And the only way people can believe it is if at the leadership talk, you talked about governance and leadership, there is actually a demonstration that we are trying to create an inclusive environment for everyone. People will tell you, look at all the heads of the, you know, parasitels in Nigeria. They all come from one part of the country. So that tells you something. So people are like, aha. So how do you believe that there's going to be a chance for me? So when we are voting next time, right? We need to be careful how we vote. Very true. We need to be strategic. We need to be looking at leaders that have demonstrated that they truly, truly understand the whole concept of federalism. Because you know what is a nation? It's a group of people gathered together for one common vision. And what is the vision of Nigeria? I don't know it. Do you know it? That's it. How many of us know it actually? I mean, how many of us really know it? And maybe that really is the question now. What are foundations might be fought? What are we working towards? Because the three of us believe are working towards one goal that benefits all of us. It wouldn't matter where we're from. Well, I guess this conversation would not end. Yeah, certainly. And I'm happy that she ended with a note of leadership. And as we approach the 2020 election, I hope Nigeria should have that focus in mind of letting the leader who have the sense of inclusion for us. We hope so too. We truly hope so. That's our prayer. On last week's episode, Milo Mor says, education and inclusion is everything. Thanks for the report. Antonia Ale Biosu says, this is quite insightful. Follow us on social media platforms on Facebook, plus TV Africa, hashtag the advocates NG, or on Instagram, plus TV Africa, hashtag the advocate NG. To catch up with previous broadcasts, go to plusTVAfrica.com slash the advocate NG. Any time is next after the break. Do stay with us. The many social cultures of Nigeria, if you don't eat fruits, you'll die of cancer. If you don't do this, this will happen to you. Why is the Nigerian way of life to instill fear in you, to ensure compliance, or as a marketing tool? And I'm going away from all we're talking about on governance, on disabilities, and to some light-headed banter. You know, I'm genuinely triggered by the negativity loop that's consistently manipulated in our society. And I personally look forward to an era where we actually appeal to a higher emotional tug. But there is a particular societal slant I want to talk to today. And that is the culture of I must marry, or you must marry. If you don't marry before 30, your eggs will die. If you're not married, mind by 35, you are irresponsible. Why are you rushing to get married is my question today. Well, I'm going to state upfront that I think that weddings are so beautiful looking, and the glam and the glitz is to die for. And all marriages can be bliss on earth and full of sugar and spice, you know, all things young and so sweet. But a beautiful wedding day is easy to plan. And you can have whatever your budget can afford. But can you have the marriage of your dreams based on your budgets? The Nigerian society is one that places a premium on one's marital status. And I'm sure that as you are watching right now, an irate mother is frantically calling her son to ask yet again when he's coming to introduce his wife to be to her. And Daddy Dearest is sitting on the Palo expressing his displeasure to his friend that his 34-year-old graduate daughter is busy chasing her career, breaking glass ceilings, he doesn't understand that at all, making a lot of money for what? But without a single thought about settling down with a man and having children, what a mess. Now, not many people actually put much thought into the fact that marriage calls for skills, grades, and striving for something akin to perfection in managing each other's persons and expectations. Let's look at all the other perpetrators of the Marinal culture. Friends, oh dear friends, they are just as bad as parents, especially when one by one crew members start tying a knot. Suddenly, all eyes are on you to walk down the aisle as well, talk about pressure. And sometimes it's that pressure that leads people into relationships and marriages they have no business being in. Truth be told, oftentimes the actions are carried out with the best intentions and while some would almost shame you into marrying, others do it so subtly and even unintentionally. But some people on the other hand have set goals and so have placed themselves under personal pressures to get married. And while we're on it, let's not forget the great social media coupled with age, your age hang-ups, and the busy body aunts and uncles, aka family members, who have set up a weekly schedule to remind you that your biological clock is ticking like the time on a bomb. Well, one thing that all those pressure groups, as that is what they are, don't factor in, is that the timelines of each and every one of us differ. What applies to you may not apply to me. So I would say today, note this and no peace. And so while you want all your hot pictures on the gram, there's a ton of work that you must put in behind the scenes. Are we ready for that? Getting married, having babies, doing all the amazing public display of affection for social media and all the other great things is what every one of us desires. Well, maybe almost all of us. But are we all ready for it? It appears that a lot of people are here to understand this or maybe they know and they are just not ready to think about it. Well, it's important that they take note that the rate of divorce today is attesting to this. Marriages are crashing every other day. So stop press. Jumping in with both feet without proper planning, financial, mental and emotional stability is like taking a shovel and digging a pit for yourself. And sadly, that pits me widening and worsen till it swallows the person uphold unless there's an intervention. And at that point in time, where are all the pressure group members, the aunties, the uncles, the daddies, the mummies, the sisters or those friends that were pressuring you to marry? You find that it's just you. Thinking about getting married when you're not even self-sufficient is a catastrophic state of mind. So it's planning to get married without having, taking charge of your emotions. I'm going to ask you today, how wise and sensible are you with money? And we know what Nigeria is talking about today. How about that temper? You know, we're fighting domestic violence today. What is it without your bad mouth? Everything your mouth runs, anything you say what comes into your mouth as you want to say it. Do you even know the level of importance as a tax to get married? Or is it just because everyone else is doing it? You know, let's ask ourselves, do you have any idea about birth control? Or do you want to be helping babies out every year? Do you have money-making ideas? In today's Nigeria, I repeat once again, now, without filling in all the necessary emotional, financial and mental boxes, no one should be thinking of a marriage. I say, are you trustworthy? Do you know how to trust somebody? Do you even understand about sexual compatibility? Have you had the talk about what you like or what you don't like? Does your partner know or possess traits that you may not even be able to deal with? Because most people just want to get married to somebody without even thinking about what the other person wants. And I would like to say here, it is not enough to love someone. Do not be fooled, love is never enough. There are so many boxes to fill and check before you could even think about being self-ready for a successful marriage, a lifetime of togetherness. And while a dramatic proposal is definitely interesting and to be talked about, it is not the guarantee for an amazing marriage. And sadly, a lot of marriages that are not yet crashed are simply being held together for many various reasons, from the children to what people will say to what will happen to me if I leave you and sometimes just to keep up appearances. I would say if you are listening to me today and you know deep within you that you are nowhere close to actually being ready for marriage, I would ask you once again, why are you rushing to get married? Is it about getting married or actually having a sense of personal responsibility? Do you have an understanding of your life and what marriage really means to you as a person or to your society in home? Anything. So, are you trying to scare people from getting married? I think I am simply trying to let people realize that there's a lot of responsibility at heart rate. I'm not just for a non-shell. I just come up with that for people, they feel like it's only men, I'm a Nigerian man, you have hit that big deal of money, you are living on your own. How dare you not buy my one, bring it one and I'll take it off for you. I mean, do you think that it has to do with... For me, when it comes to marriage, there is always a cultural and a religious intersection. You know the whole concept of going to the world, multiply, have dominion. For you to multiply means you have to get married because in our culture, children come as a by-product of a marriage. So the real focus for many of these parents and pressure groups is that cute niece, nephew, the grandchild. It's not necessarily because they want to see you, they see you or bling-ring or they see you in a home. They just... They need you to go in there because a child comes from that process. But to be on a serious note though, because of the high rate of divorces, I'm going to agree with you on this one completely. It's... Divorces leave a negative impact on the couple, as well as the children, if not handled very carefully. There's a lot of baggage that comes with it. There's a lot of bitterness, you know. And if it can be avoided, right, really, it's better to wait than make a mistake. The pressure comes from people just trying to do what is a natural progression of life. So many times now, I actually find that the pressure is no longer coming from the families. In recent times, for a lot of people, the pressure is actually coming from themselves. So you have two schools of two groups now. The people who are put themselves under pressure because it's the natural progression of life. I'm out of university, I have a job, it's time for me to get married. And then you have the ones where the families are making comments like, what are you going to do? But then you also have a group of people now who are deciding that, you know what, marriage and children is not an option for me. That's what I'm discovering too. People are saying that. And people are starting to say that. It's not an option for me. And I think there's also something that married people need to do better at. And that is speaking about the good sides of marriage. What you find now is that a lot of people go into marriage with a lot of baggage. Other people's baggage, not their baggage. They've seen marriages around them fail. So they've come with that thing of, oh, I've heard something bad happen to my friend. And say, when I marry, I'm not going to take that. So you already go in, guns blazing, right? Your tentacles are already up. You're already paranoid. And so something that you may have handled in a particular way, you handled it with force and aggression. And of course, that's not going to work. Love is a decision. It's not a feeling. So when people are going to marriage on the basis of love, and I ask them, what does it mean when you say that you are in love? They're never able to articulate it because it's a feeling. If you're able to articulate it, then I know that you're onto something because love is a decision. Love is deciding that I'm going to tolerate that mistake that you're going to make. I'm going to think of the worst case scenario. What's the worst thing that you're going to do? And I'm still within the confines of, please let's stay out of domestic violence, you know, things like that. But I'm thinking, what's the worst thing that you're going to do? Am I going to still be able to forgive you? Am I going to be able to stay with you when there's no money, right? Am I going to take on your battles? Are we working towards a vision? So it doesn't have anything to do with the feeling. It has to do with the decision that I'm going to work this journey with you. And on your people are able to answer those questions carefully and intelligently. Not all. I like the way he or she makes me feel and they're not ready. That's the truth. So that's very true. And they're better at it. They're better at it, yes. You know, well, you know, it's quite a very, like I said before now, it's a whole lot brought into one kid. The whole marriage institution, the law of aspects to it and the societal pressure that comes with it, particularly for people of my generation who like he pointed out that when you're not done with your university, have you got a master's degree, you're not working on any some money, the natural expectation is actually talking about getting married and all of that. And beyond that natural expectation that is forced on us by, that's a function of society we all live. You understand? And it's not necessarily bad if you ask me. Okay. It's not necessarily bad that when you begin to attain a certain age, people, your friends, family will be, let me not say ask, they will be interested in knowing when you're not eventually going to settle down and then perhaps open the chapter of your own family. It's a function of our cultural experience. You understand? Yeah. And even in the Bible, like she pointed out, the Bible also ordains that institution, that the man, the woman has to live and together they become wife and procreate, fuel the air to multiply. So as a cultural and religious basis for this, what I see that has happened now is how society has made it as though they have now, they don't allow it to happen, to just happen from the standpoint of the individual. That's where we're going to, that's the point, yes. For the individual coming to the realization that, okay, now I think I should now start off on, it should come from the individual. When it is now being forced from the societal pressure and family, it causes the problem that makes someone to now perhaps rush into it. And most of the time when you rush into it, you also rush out of it. You burst out. As you say, when you're caught, if you rush to caught, you rush out of caught. So those are the issues and I think we have to actually, we should not be drawn into all the bedlam out there. People should know what they want and know when to start this institution of marriage, if they feel they need it. I quite agree with both of you, but I think the part that I am beginning to, well, maybe personally see and to talk to, is the fact that, like Uche rightly said, feelings and emotions have taken on the decision-making. But one of the things, and this is totally away from the fact that it's the societal norm, life skills around decision-making, critical thinking, as an emotional intelligence, understanding of how people relate. We are not taking in the thinking part of decision-making. This is a lifelong decision. And I'm saying that rather than be moved by societal norms or pressures within you or your sense of expectation to take in that cold eye review of what you want to get into. I mean, how many of us actually understand the other person? You know what I'm talking about? Wife material or husband material will look at things like I can tolerate his excesses. But have I ever actually thought of what actions or remedies or steps I want to use to tolerate those person's excesses or not? Who is that person? But then, you know, I mean, these conversations that we're having today could go on and on, and I'm sure they're really triggering conversations. Yeah, because there's an economic dimension to why people get married. I hope you know that. Oh, yes. In fact, we're just chipping something. There was something that Chimaman Dengosa said sometimes that there is no timeliness to success. So for those who have seen marriage as a sort of a prize or is a huge prize which must be won, they should know that there is no timeliness to eat. She said a law degree that's gotten for his later and one got him for his earlier. They are all law degree. Fantastic. Very true. Thank you so much, Raymond, for that. Well, we have come to the end of today's episode. However, the advocacy continues on our social media platforms on Facebook at Plus TV Africa, hashtag The Advocate NG, or on Instagram at Plus TV Africa, hashtag The Advocate NG. So catch up with previous broadcasts. Go to PlusTVAfrica.com forward slash The Advocate NG. And don't forget to subscribe to our YouTube channel, Plus TV Africa. Till next week, same time on this station, let's keep advocating for a better society. Thank you. Bye for now.