 Good afternoon and welcome today to today's conversation, which is a really historic one It's about the reflection on the stand in the schoolhouse store My name is dr. Christine Taylor and I serve as the vice president for diversity equity and inclusion and associate provost We want to welcome you into today's conversation Let me just say it's been incredible to have an opportunity to work on this project and I'm going to give some special recognition to One of the groups that helped in this and that is a tuscaloosa civil rights history and reconciliation foundation their website is civil rights tuscaloosa.org and They currently are working on many issues dealing with civil rights in our community But most importantly there now is a serious Tuscaloosa civil rights trail and if you've not had an opportunity to participate in that I really encourage you to do that because it very much parallels with the conversation that we're going to be having today Which is about the stand in the schoolhouse store To say that I'm excited is is an understatement and let me share with you who are two guests are today That are going to help us get a better understanding of what happened What are the events that led to the stand as well as some things that happen afterwards and From a housekeeping point We're going to leave about 10 minutes at the end of our conversation Questions and answers from you and you can simply put them in the chat room and we'll try to get Our participants an opportunity to answer them. Let me first start by telling you who's who's in the house If you will I'm so honored to welcome Dr. E. Culpepper or Cully Clark Who is the author of the schoolhouse door? Segregations last stand at the University of Alabama This book was named a notable book by the New York Times book review He's a native of South Georgia of South Georgia town of Cairo Dr. Clark received his undergraduate and master's degree in history at Emory University and then went on to get his PhD At the University of North Carolina Dr. Clark is Dean emeritus of the Henry W. Grady College of Journalism and Mass Communications at the University of Georgia Before going to the University of Georgia He had been at the University of Alabama for 27 years and spent his last years at UAS a Dean of the College of Communications and Information Sciences His retirement from the University of Georgia marked 47 years as a teacher and education administrator a Historian of the South since the Civil War his published works have focused on the New South movement and civil rights So we thank you. Dr. Clark My other guest today is dr. Arthur or art in Dunning He is a three-time graduate of the University of Alabama He is the immediate past president of Albany State University Now prior to his work at Albany State He served as senior research fellow and professor at the University of Alabama in 2013 and Vice Chancellor for International Programs and Outreach for the University of Alabama system between 2010 and 2012 He's had several executive positions in higher education including senior vice chancellor for human and external resources Vice Chancellor for services and acting executive vice chancellor at the University system of Georgia He's also served as a chief executive officer of Georgia partnership for excellence in education During dr. Dr. Dunning served two years in Taiwan with the US Air Force before matriculating to the University of Alabama in 1966 he was one of about 15 African Americans on the campus in the mid 1960s and came during the second class after at the campus Welcome Malone and hood in fact He and four of his friends walked on at Paul Bryant Paul Bear Bryant's spring football practices Dr. Dunning's ties to the University run deep He chaired the 50th anniversary committee of the university's through the door celebration Honoring the lives of Vivian Malone Jones and James Hood as well as offering Lucy Foster Thank you both so much for coming today and being a part of this conversation as I've thought about our time This is about not only Brown v. Board. It's about civil rights. It's about the history of the University of Alabama It's about diversity in higher education It's about all the things that we're working through today as a nation and I'm so looking forward to having the conversation I'd like to start with you Dr. Clark if you could help our audience who perhaps does not have the understanding about Exactly what happened on this historic day on June 11th. It's very day 57 years ago when Vivian Malone and James Hood were trying to Come to the University of Alabama we have this historic stand in the schoolhouse door Which is now part of almost every civil rights movie that you see in the nation Bring our audience up to speed about what's happening in the background of all this is going on, please Well, I can tell you where I was and what I was doing. I was at Emory and on June 11 1963 I was a sophomore at that time and I was very interested in what was happening in Tuscaloosa paying close attention to it and While I was working cash register in Cox Hall to sort of help pay my way through college I Had plenty of time To go back to my dorm listen to the radio watch some of the television footage. It was being displayed about that stand in the schoolhouse store and so it was very personal to me and I Also know where I was when offering Lucy was going through her carol At the University of Alabama. I was in South Georgia K-Roe it is pronounced. Hey, Ron. Thank you. Right The K-Roe high school syrup makers a matter of fact and we're as far south as you can get in Georgia without being in Tallahassee Birthplace of Jackie Robinson So I'm not from nowhere. Got you. You're from some great places in any event that That time and that moment when I was 12 soon to turn 13 was gripping for me and The truth is is that when I came to Alabama Year was it? 1971 As I drove into Alabama, I Knew there was a book I was going to write and it would be about authoring Lucy and James Hood and Vivian Malone and I had that opportunity and It's been one of the great pleasures of my life because I got to interview so many people Who were part of it? experienced it Knew what happened very well like Arthur Dunning and so That gave me a rich body of oral history to you know transfuse and inspire the written documents that I also Plowed through and That gave me an opportunity to tell a very important story And that's the story about the ring Lucy Vivian Malone and James Hood and what they did to change the University of Alabama Or ever better Yes So but it strikes me that it didn't just change the University of Alabama because we see the footage from the Stand-in-the-Schoolhouse store of this historic date some 57 years ago And it put in the context of many civil rights Documentaries or movies, but so they could you give us a a high-level view of what this case meant About diversity in terms of where we're able to move in diversity in higher education From from your research. Yeah Well, the interesting thing is how long it took to Take it back For example, these schoolhouse doors was June 11 1963 and Art can testify this as I can But we did not make meaningful progress on integration that is getting a Sufficient number of African-Americans until at least five years later So when our came there in 1966 he had very few cohorts who were African-American and it took time for all of that to develop In fact, it took time for all of the integration of Education from K through 12 up through higher education to really get traction and I'd date that traction to around 68 when things began to pick up And move in the right direction Right or higher education So dr. Dunning you were here in the year after Vivian Malone came and James Hood. Could you talk a bit about your? Ideas what you had heard about this experience and your ideas and decision to come to the University of Alabama. I Was not even 20 years of age When this happened in 1963, but I was off the coast of China on an island called Taiwan And I was serving in the United States Air Force 19 years of age and I worked a midnight shift and I had to stop by the gun room to turn in an M2 carbine 38 something lesson and my habit was that by finished a midnight shift and turn those weapons in I will stop by the base library There are two or three documents I would read New York Times that one constitution Time magazine and on the cover of time was a Vivian Malone walking near Denny Chimes with the US Marshal And it occurred to me What was happening when I was out of this country? You had never ever was being shot Kennedy being assassinated Kelly England Park dogs and firehoses and four girls in Birmingham During that 63 time period as a 19-year-old. I'm very much seething about the whole thing back here I got out of service. I Had the Vietnam era GI deal and that GI deal allowed me to come to a state university and have some resources left So when I arrived on campus in June, I think June 6 1966 I Was here five weeks before I saw another African-American student and I was walking across the quad and saw a person waved at me But my first introduction I got out of Maxwell Air Force base in Montgomery on a Friday afternoon and on Monday I was on campus living in Pady Hall. I Was walking from the student union building, which is at the time. It's where Reese Piper is right now It's not by the post office to open them to get a box Now I was walking down the campus on the left side of the quad in front of graves and I walked on down to near Morgan Hall someone yelled a racial slur out of the top floor of Morgan Hall and Used the n-word to say go home And I was kind of amused about that because at that time I had come back to see my family and the Alabama black belt And I very much embraced the culture back at home the cuisine the music the lineage the extended family and here the racial slurs And I what made me so amused about it. I thought I'm gonna end back at home Didn't bother me at the time. I just kept walking Classes and 10 who are and Morgan Hall, but where most of My classes were held at the time, but it was complete isolation socially on Friday nights The six or eight students went to stillman College Since I was a little older There's one thing that I really have enjoyed all my life is southern blues I went used to go to a place called a citizens club down on Utah So Alabama Universities almost like a job I came to take classes but not to get integrated fully into the social aspects of the campus because of the sheer isolation I Was a third-year student before anybody sat by me in a classroom, and I was in 10 who are on the ground floor Just pause a second. So you're in a class. How many students would have been in that classroom just guess 25 students and no one would sit beside you the one set by me and what you have the front seat the Seat in the side seat in the back So it's almost a little circle around you and then in the third year someone finally sat by me in a classroom But now I want to give you some context about this I had been in a barracks two years with some very earthy and profane guys called us airmen and I was not At all bothered by that because I'd seen the most up-close and personal Issues of how people felt about race history and culture back at home in the United States of America and My job was to come to the University of Alabama as I felt at the time was to get a college degree and There was one thing that I think your listeners should notice Should know and understand It was so clear to me that Jim Crow could not be sustained I wish we had been able to say to people who were pushing back this thing is over We're not going to sit by with a legal system of a hundred years any longer and Johnson at the time had just he signed 1964 civil rights act, but nothing changed in Alabama because he signed that document But what was clear to me the young African-Americans that I spent time with it was clear that we were not going to abide by those rooms any longer and I since The tipping point at times that I'm feeling now about this present Issue that's going on across this country so I came As a 22 year old As a freshman to Alabama in June of 1966 if a minute 18 years, I thought I was an old man Because I've been in the military and four years older. So that's the context of what was going on from my experience at that time Wow You know you spoke earlier that you about the difference in terms of how you saw yourself when you were in Taiwan as Compared to how you felt about yourself here in the US. I Felt when I left the US and flew out of San Francisco at age 18 I felt no ownership of Alabama felt no ownership of the country But I was part of the draft generation Nixon ended the draft but the Southern African-American men that was how you left the region When I came back it was almost An experience that I can't describe I came back Feeling very Southern feeling very Alabama and feeling very America The reason for that is because that's how I was treated in Taiwan I had never experienced liberty and freedom But on that island I could stay in a hotel. I could go to Taipei I could go to bookstores or the restaurants But back at home I had to navigate through general laws So I'll ever have felt passionate about that part of the world When I finished my master's in Alabama, I went back to Bangkok for two years As a civilian this time around But what gave me ownership was how people the Taiwanese defined me They defined me as an American as an airman and I started to embrace Those identities but when I left with Jim Crow and marginalization And subjugation by laws, politics, practices and customs and the Alabama black belt with this way I grew up My mom and dad were school teachers and I was a voracious reader and had a keen instinct about what I was seeing And so when I came back after two years, I had been repositioned intellectually and emotionally about all of this Thank you. Dr. Clark. Let me ask the question about this historic event With respect to its relationship to the civil rights movement. The other night I was looking at Something on the history channel focused on this period of time and they discussed The stand in the schoolhouse door and the speech that president Kennedy gave And that work that ended up having to be completed by president Johnson But but I'd like you to speak if you will about How the stand in the schoolhouse door here here at the university of Alabama began to set the stage for The development and completion of that segment of the civil rights movement All right. I'll get to that. Let me start though by talking following up on what arc said Vivian Malone also was very much isolated and alone on campus and she was purposefully Escorted by University of Alabama over to stillman for and improved social life for her And as a matter of fact Her husband today mac jones was a stillman student And became her driver to and from stillman to the university and back and forth So that's how they met and lived happily ever after And but uh, it was a very isolating time And again, it would be another five years before you would have begin to get something of a surge in african-american enrollments at the university of alabama And meaningful steps towards a more integrated environment So Mentioned that right. Thank you. Yeah, and um Your question was to the The senpai Yes, how to stand at the schoolhouse door what the president Kennedy had to do on that day and how it then Harlaid into The undone business or unfinished business if you will that got picked up with president johnson So talk about how this historical John kennedy was very much involved Through his brother robert And robert was on site and down here working working working to advance the cause and to make it possible to remove the barrier of segregation in the state of alabama through its university And uh, so there's a great correspondence in the kennedy papers about the schoolhouse store and bobby's regular Correspondence with john pitsteryl kennedy And so it is an important part of the story And uh, as i noted earlier What happened in 63 would take Root in 68 And began to really move the civil rights movement forward But 63 had to happen first Because it was sounding the death knell to segregation And it rang loud And it had roots that went forward But as I say it took a while for Things to begin to really coalesce But it started And that was important So so let me ask you a question that you said you did a lot of oral history to gather The information for your book What is are there things that people would be surprised to know so there is the story But there are perhaps Undercurrents that people might be surprised to know that you discovered in your research Around the time of the stand in the schoolhouse store Uh, yes, the things that would be of most interesting Was when I would be interviewing former members of the white citizens council So talking about the white citizens and the white citizens council, of course Was the organization designed to push back against desegregation It was a white supremacist group And I interviewed a number of those people To measure their temperament their times What they thought today And many of them hadn't changed Uh, one of the arch people that resisted desegregation university of alabama lives about 40 miles northwest of tuscaloosa And I went to his home And when I went into his home He had one wall of books That were loaded up with civil rights literature And he had another wall of books that was loaded up with segregationist literature And he looked at me And kind of winked and said see they don't even meet here Oh, wow That's kind of guy he was But uh, he was a real rappel rouser And I do Have him in the book So that people can see What that mindset was And how it operated to disturb What was taking place In tuscaloosa university of alabama Dr. Dunning uh talked about The students that he was there on campus with And I would have I would have signed them the name of foot soldiers if they were folks who Who just they too had a part they were foot soldiers in this whole process What was your what what were the things that you learned from the african-american community as you were doing the research for the book What was the temperament there? Is that the collie? Yes, it's for collie. Uh, dr. Clark. What was there? What was their temperament for uh members of the african-american community? When they began when you were doing the research What was my sentiment about no, what was what were you learning from the african-american community? How are they looking at what was about to happen and let me give this a personal reference? Because I was a kid who integrated the first grade in 1963 in tennessee There were a whole bunch of people in our community that were like don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it Mostly because of my safety and then there were others who were saying yes go forward. Yes go forward So i'm interested in what you learned about how the community was feeling about it How are people in the state responding to this and what was that larger strategy? I learned a lot and yes, there was that push and pull phenomenon going on in the african-american community some saying don't do it some saying go for it and let's get it and You know, but most of the sentiment I think would have coalesced around support For what was taking place in the desegregation of the university of alabama particularly but all over the state and but I've got loads of interviews with african-americans who Experienced it Testified to it. You know, I just became great friends with authorine lucy her family and Her daughter grazia came to the university of alabama while I was still there and I got to know her real well and then other members few laurence foster who was authoring's husband and a wonderful minister in birmingham That made a real difference for me And of course interviewing the principals in the schoolhouse store Uh episode and all that sort of stuff meant the world to me as well I learned an enormous amount about how people felt about going forward And the courage that it took Yes, I mean it was a lonely experience on that university campus that You know College of Vivian they have to go over Spelton Stillman. Yes So dr. Dunning you clearly exhibited that courage And I'd like for you to talk about um, what in it? What in you? compelled you to move forward In the midst of the isolation you talked about the racial slurs that you received What was the driver for you? I think my my sense of history I'll give you an example of two people Some people on campus may know these names, but jay and everton murphy I remember Inviting joe malishan To talk to eight or ten students at williams restaurant. Which is a restaurant We are still in college all the ua students run over there We invited two people to speak to us joe malishan and ty rogers And one of the things that malishan said that really struck a chord What would you share with people who may not know who he is? joe malishan was a Korean war veteran and he Was a civil rights leader and served on this kind of commission. I think when they made the change He was the first African American but he was a Really strong advocate for change in tuscaloosa and ty rogers was a young minister at first african baptist church And what we were looking for we felt at times fatigued And we looked for people who could come in and speak to us To give us a broader context as young students The ty rogers talked about the sort of change across america change across the south And our role as young people in being successful students joe malishan was more um We won't change But we're going to protect ourselves he mentioned to me That when alberta murphy Who's married to jay murphy law professor at the university of alabama Would meet with them to help them do Work civil rights and to get them out of jail That she would drive home sometimes late from those meetings. He said Two of us would follow her and he said i don't think she ever knew this but we'll follow her make sure she got home We had shotguns And so I felt at the time I had this context That I was not going to live my life after serving this nation One system called gem crow. I was not going to do that. I didn't know how that was going to play out And so when I stepped on the university of alabama campus It was almost child's play considering what was in my mind and what I experienced in east asia Now give me one more example of what happened in 63 I was asleep one morning and a tylenese young boy Who kept our barracks clean he came and touched me on the shoulder and said The american president has been shot And I thought what is he talking about kennedy had been assassinated Walked out in the hallway There were two american airmen Clapping and said we got the sob. We got the sob and One was from marge george and the other was from huntsville alabama and what they were Happy about the kennedy was promoting civil rights and he had been assassinated That said to me as a young Less than 20 years of age how profound the fault line is in the south Um when I walked to the university of alabama campus, I had all of that context in my head And I recognized that we were in the sort of pulsating death Of a jim pro system because all the african-americans through the time knew on that campus felt the same We're not going to do this any longer. My parents had to deal with this. My grandparents had to deal with this And 80 of the time or after americans in this country has been on either slavery or Legal segregation both of those systems are designed to drop to grind Exceptionality out of you It was they're designed to grind any exceptionality you feel about yourself Well, we were done with that and so that was what was kind of around me when I was walking across the floor and somebody yells out a racial sweater Well, that's um That's so important the way you put it I get it understand it completely um I too remember the day kennedy was shot and um You know the sad thing in the county that I grew up in is He won the county by a landslide Because southern democrats were still voting for democrats But when he was assassinated Cheers went up in schools all around my county I wasn't there. I was an emery when that happened um But that's what took place. I mean it was a transformation in Southern attitudes quite southern attitudes towards the kennedys that started very supportive And wound up cheering his dip So that's the impact that his support of civil rights with his brother robert at his right side and uh And together they were bringing about a civil rights revolution through executive leadership and um People in my home county didn't like it Dr. Dunning, I want to ask you a another question about um, how you and your colleagues walk on To paul bear bryant spring football practices talk to us a bit about that What I read that I was like, all right The Room is that strictly honest I'll be honest about it one of the rooms that circulated through the small african-american population at the university of alabama that one of the assistant coaches allegedly said He did not ever foresee a day That a negro Would have the athletic ability and academic ability to play football for the university of alabama He just didn't see that anytime in the future So the five of us had played in high school. I played at a small one-a school And I think out of the five maybe three had deep interest in playing on the team I was one of the two That had sharp elbows that there's no sacred space in a racial caste system any longer I'm not going to be part if you're saying that's so my job out there Was to go on that team No intention of staying But it was to help disintegrate and to break down any racial caste system And hereditary advantage I was done with people having a hereditary advantage on the racial caste system. So when a Coach allegedly said they don't have the skills academic or athletic The myth of that we all chuckle about that So we walked on in the spring of 67 And coach brine was up in the tower. Kenny stable was part of that Um I walked in the room the dressing room about 80 guys the whole room just got silent since I walked in Remember a man named sam bailey. I have I had been clean-shaven for four years. I had grown in my stash And sam bailey gave me a raisin said you're going on this field. You have to cut that thing off and I'm using laugh about this when I think about it now. I thought I've been waiting four years to do this This is a high price to pay just to walk on But we walked on the on that field to make to make sure There's no sacred space around racial advantage That was that was what was going through my mind at the time And it was all on the news we got interviewed and at the time there were only three networks abc cbs and mbc And I think they were all out there. No cable networks at the time and We spent some time all of us being interviewed after we walked off the practice field And I think three of the players stayed through spring practice in one state through the fall But after about two or three weeks I decided my my goal is to get a Bachelors degree from the University of Alabama. I've made the statement And now I'm done with this. I moved on To get back to my studies, but that was the purpose of it of walking on that field We knew alabama football was a big deal then and it is now If we walked on it was going to get a lot of attention Right And that's what happened I'd like to ask um Dr. Clark In what way do you see let's talk about that actual day And you said you interviewed a lot of the people that were there on the day of the stand in the schoolhouse store Could you walk us through the events of the day and all the things the intricacies and I and I would encourage people If you've not read the book It's quite fascinating and I love the way that you've documented this story. But could you share with us? The events of that day and what are all the pressure points that were happening on that day? Well, there were a lot of different pressure points It was very difficult to assess what the white students were going to do By and large they either maintained a respectful distance or a quality When they saw living alone or james hood on their way to phosphor auditorium Now the auditorium was encircled by You know state patrol National guardsmen So there was a lot of in effect armed presence military To keep the peace and to keep order The thing that is vivid to me most about that Is through it all there comes Vivian Malone and james hood And they are walking steadily and straight towards that shoo house door And there stands Wallace right in the middle of that door In effect playing like a traffic cop telling him to stop And uh, but uh And they did for a moment But what happened then was general Henry Graham came up And told Wallace he said it is my sad duty to ask you to leave and Wallace left And as he walked away from the school house door Vivian Malone and james hood went right on through and went through registration They were alone the other students weren't registering on that day and at that moment but they had the whole foster auditorium basketball facility to themselves And the registrars and faculty were there to enroll them in their classes And everything happened wonderfully well. They went to their dorms In fact earlier because Wallace had Ringed the auditorium With his cronies and all They went straight to the dorms and walked into those dorms and went to their floors and unpack And then they came back to the school house door and went in and registered This is such a fascinating fascinating Intimate understanding of what was happening on the campus both From a historian's perspective as well as from a person who was Was there within a year of the stand in the school house doors So I do want to ask the folks that are in the audience if you've got a question We've got about 15 minutes left to our conversation Please put those in but but I want to take that historic event And fast forward to our thinking and both of you have been distinguished Higher education leaders As you reflect on where we are nationally in higher education and tying it to that Historic day the stand in the school house door, which happened 57 years ago on this day at the University of Alabama What are your thoughts? What are you thinking and maybe even if you want to put that in the context of what we're dealing with as a nation right now Because one of the things that one of you said that there was a sense that systems were not going to change I think dr. Dunning it was you but you were If I can use a tennessee phrase flat footed in your determination with your peers That things were going to change that you were going to keep moving and not let the system Stop you that had been put up in place. I just like you to reflect the moment in terms of higher education and where we are Given your experiences the historian as a participant in that process and and dr. Dunning perhaps if you'd like to go first and Dr. Clark will go with you next okay I think there two things that I think about is What's happening now Feels very different for me And I go back to the time when I was 18 years of age 19 years of age how young people How we felt almost no fear And that we Understood the system and understood how wrong the system was It almost had a political stench to it So at age 18, we had nothing to lose And people were being harmed On the edlin fetters bridge. They were being harmed in mary and alabama places like greensboro and utah to be out there I think if there's one thing that comes to my mind so clear This is the energy that people are bringing to something that's so egregious and what was Nagging at us the students at the university of alabama. I'll give you an example I flew back and landed in san francisco after being in taiwan at age 20 and flew from san francisco to new orleans And got on a bus Stopped in deluxe in mississippi and when I got off I looked up and saw color waiting room and white waiting room I spent two years Away from that I looked at that and I thought I'm not doing this. I am not going to do this And so I sense things that we can learn Is that the energy of young people Behind some of these changes that they are pushing That's going to happen And one of the things I'm so hopeful about and I worried about my home state People can differ on a lot of things, but the south in alabama on the wrong side of the civil war they want the wrong side of civil rights and at some point you're going to have to understand it's hard to manage a multiracial democracy If you think you can exclude people Because of certain aspects of who they are It just it's not going to add up And we have a demographic destiny that's in our face right now the changing profile of america And I think that people think this is not going to happen I think there were people in the 60s who felt civil rights would not happen That these changes that occurred with johnson and the voting rights I think we've hit a tipping point probably may have a better historical perspective But I'm feeling something very different about this. It was reminding me of at the time in the 60s So I think this if our students at the university of alabama And we had this at the university there were about four or five faculty members at the university That we consider allies Work got around among the eight or ten students these five or six faculty members They are helpful They're thoughtful. They are kind And you need to get to know them So I would say to students any change that you think about bringing about I would say there are three things you need collaboration cooperation and leveraging relationships Because we didn't do anything around these issues unless we have that marlitha king had that the kennedys johnson I understand that johnson said to marlitha king What can I the kings say what can I do to help you? He says stay in the streets and keep pressure on me keep pressure on the government that he allegedly said that And so I think the notion of alliances and and coalitions makes a lot of sense to me Yes, thank you. Dr. Clark. How would you respond to that? well, I just the Movement liberated me Uh, it gave me the right to choose anyone I wished for a friend Uh, it opened doors for me To experience But all others experience And uh, you know add it to the total amount of experiences So I was just liberated by the civil rights movement desegregation integration And uh, I have watched The progress of it. I remember when there was early pushback from white students that continued five six seven years into the seventies But it began to melt And uh, when it did it went away That negative And I just think the world is so much better off for what My african-american friends endured in order to make it a better place and uh I've got a grandson over here right now who navigates the world that is just totally beyond And it's uh, it's He's went from one of the most integrated high schools in Atlanta part of me And uh, it wasn't always teachers and cream But it was a great school and with great outcomes for all the students And uh, those were the kinds of things that I think are victories And they would not have occurred absent what My african-american friends did to liberate themselves and therefore me Let me just follow up a bit on on that comment that you made that you said after doing the research in the book That you had the freedom to have any kind of friend that you wanted to have That perhaps you hadn't since that before And I I think part of what you're what I understand you to say is that you may have perceived there are boundaries Of connecting with people who are different than you and and for folks who may have a similar sort of feeling Because one of the pieces that's come up with this nationally In light of the recent national events is how do I get involved? How can I be helpful? And for people who have not found themselves being One one of many or or have never really taken the time or the energy to connect with people that are different It can sometimes be a little overwhelming people that are diverse that that's a part of your life It's part of what you have to do So perhaps you could speak about that as as it relates to Our ability to be able to work more collaboratively together whether we're talking about in our community our campus What what words would you give from your experiences doing the interviews and writing your book? Well, I will give you one picture of that When the book came out I was in Roger chair's office the president of the university as his executive assistant And uh, I went to him And I said this is not going to go down very well and you may want to look for another executive assistant Because there were things that I exposed About what people who were important to the university Had done that would embarrass them today or then And uh, and and I knew it because but I couldn't tell the story and not tell it like it was And uh gotta be truthful. And so in being truthful, I knew That there were important alumni Who were going to feel a little abused by what I exposed in the book And uh, so it was Not comfortable But you know the interesting thing is I never got any feedback from those I felt like we're going to have some real problems with it And no one ever came to me and said you shouldn't have said that about my mom and dad You shouldn't have said that about my uncle. You shouldn't have said that about my friends Uh, I never ever got that kind of feedback And uh, most of the people who read it Thought it did a good service to What had gone on and transpired and how it affected all the people involved And how it had ramifications for a much better university of alabama Than it would have been without having gone through desegregation So dr. Denning, I'd like to ask you to speak if you will to um What advice you would give to young people moving forward Um Whether we're talking about uh, because I do think even today And i'm speaking now very broadly and generally is if you look at the the research and the data about life for Diverse students and predominantly white institutions Some of the same things that you spoke about in terms of your own personal experience Still persist today. And so clearly, um institutions are working to make these more welcoming and inclusive places That's in part why I have the role that I have here at the campus But uh What would you recommend for students? Who perhaps are walking um in a same space not to the same degree that you've experienced While you were here as a student But what what words of wisdom would you offer to them and also to those of us who are Leaders and administrators and supporters for all of our students here at the university of alabama I think the use of uh of your voice I remember 10 of us Almost the entire african-american population went to see president rose And car michael hall frank rose And what was agitating us We watched a homecoming float That had an old south theme The women on the float or anabella and skirts and the guys wore confederate uniforms They had gotten six or eight young black kids from tuscaloosa to get on the float to fan them While they were sitting And so this float was coming down the university boulevard during homecoming A couple of stood there and watched that with these young boys fanning these Suitors with an old south theme we can see dr. Rose about that And in the office he had a young assistant named david mathews who was sitting in there Taking notes who he mentioned became the president of the university of alabama What we said to dr. Rose sir There are two views of southern history And that may be your view as african-american students That's not the portrayal of us as students at the university of alabama So the concept of the voice Students need to find their voice around these issues I think the university administrators should help facilitate growth and development intellectually around these issues of a diverse nation A multiracial nation How do you Help them know what they're going to face when they get out not just the academic side But given the concept of voice to bring about organizational change And I felt at the time and I think it's more dr. Rose's personality that it was somewhat patronized And what I said in that meeting Is that It's unlike a little ever reconciled southern history because we have two views of the south But we can expect to have some dignified space and a southern Seeing the slavery tied to it is not what we would like to see as students at the university of alabama And we got on his agenda on his calendar. He listened to that And at some point it stopped I don't know what he did with it. I have no idea about that but what we brought to that process was a voice So I think university administrators Should provide Safe space for your student voices safe spaces for students to have their voices heard And it's part of what I consider The growth experience I felt all the time at the university of alabama. We were pushing against sort of a tide And We found and the cuddly would perhaps know these names with john blackburn. I think jeff denning the names that I remember um that people were not pushing to support you by everything we say but At least that was a level of kindness And so we've been able to find it out and they helped us with our voice around this So my advice to students is to find that voice and to university administrators help facilitate that in ways where it strengthens the university experience Now blackburn and Bennett were favorites of mine for sure And one other just note on what you were saying I think the sororities and fraternities at the university of alabama white Were bad business for The development of race relations on campus They had those old south themes that you mentioned and They in their parades would do offensive things As they were trooping from their fraternities over to the stadium for a football game They would shout things that were gross bold and They kind of perpetuated some of that Quote old south stuff. It wasn't old south. It was southern white stuff And There you have I think Greek system Was a retardant On progress Well, I'm pleased to say that As I as I'm learning that our that our systems have moved To make a change on the campus and the good thing I think That I've said since I've gotten here to our campus is that we do have a history But the good news is that we can talk about look where we have come since then But most importantly, I think the message we want to focus on is look where we're going to go In terms of making sure that all of our students understand the importance of accurate history understand the importance of cultural competencies and Really can operate in a powerful way in a world as dr. Dunning has already talked about It's going to be increasingly diverse and increasingly global I think it's part of the educational imperative that our students leave our institutions. This is across the nation Ready to operate in that world in that experience because you all come from we all come from different places But we've got to leave here ready to go to many many places So any last comment we're right on the on the time here any last comment from and a very quick note on that What I was describing was a kind of 70s Yes, yes, that by the time we get into the 80s. We really are You know Moving into a supportive and encouraging environment From conversation to friendships to Everything that feels so much better. Yes. Yes So any last comment as we conclude today's conversation Dr. Dunning. I think as a follow-up to what college has said I have a son who is a professor at the University of Maryland and when he was going to a high-end College prep school in Atlanta Occasionally, I would talk about the University of Alabama and some of the things that occurred And he would give me this look as if I'm talking about the war of the roses But and I and I and I couldn't get him to sort of Listen to that because So much it changed so much He had no frame of reference to connect to something That I was saying that was in my lifetime and that amused me And so totally is why we have had dramatic changes But I consider what's going on in this nation We are always a work in progress the more perfect union concept We are always a working process So I would get people to understand to think about this is sort of a marathon and an ongoing body of work And viewed as how each generation has to step in And to continue the strength of this country And give a level of dignity and humanity and options and choices to citizens That's what it's all about So how to communicate in ways where students can sort of understand their role now All right Dr. Clark any last comment from you as we close out today? No, I've just enjoyed so much being a part of this Getting to revisit something that Was a powerful part of my life and To do it with you and all the family that have gathered here And I gather there's some 150 that may have gathered Plus We had over 200 about 250 They joined us. Yes. Yes Well, thank you both as as we conclude I want to share with our audience is a quote that I just absolutely love by margaret meet and she says Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful Committed citizens Can change the world Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has And so for you committed citizens that absolutely changed in terms of our understanding of the history In terms of what was happening on this campus I am deeply indebted to both of you and I thank you so much for joining us today And thanks to those who joined us online today. Check our website diversity at UA dot edu We thank you. Have a great weekend and roll tide