 So, I'm here with Matt Leib, who is a writer and a comedian and host of Newsbroke on AJ+, and also a member of the Chosen People. Now, Matt, from your vantage point across the pond, I'm just kind of wondering what you make of the recent fury over anti-Semitism and racism and leftism and all that kind of stuff. Well, it seems like it depends on where you are, on your side of the pond, as I've come to learn, it's called. It seems like there is, I mean, you correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like there is a kind of a smear campaign going on where Jeremy Corbyn and other anti-Zionist members of the Labour Party are being kind of just generally smeared as anti-Semites by, it seems like, a lot of different Jewish mainstream institutions in the institutional community, as well as the kind of mainstream body politic. Is that right, or is there legitimate issues of anti-Semitism happening? It's funny, because I think there is a lot of levels on which you can appreciate this, and untangling that is not something that the media has done particularly well because precisely tangling it has been quite a useful thing for people who do want to collapse those categories, because that's kind of useful if you do support the state of Israel and want to completely raise the possibility of all criticism of it. So there have been instances of anti-Semitism in the Labour Party because kind of, of course there have been because it exists in society, and society is anti-Semitic, right? And also there's a level on which people are scared. I don't know what the situation is for you, but talking to relatives, talking to friends, people are genuinely scared of a rise in anti-Semitism, particularly in this kind of couched in the terms of like, oh we were allowed to be wiped for 70 years, but they won't let us cling on for long, right? And I just kind of am struggling to pay adequate attention to those fears as genuine because they are genuine, right? There is a rise in anti-Semitism, but I think that's kind of mainly down to, or mainly being driven by far right elements that are kind of emboldening something that happens across society and then you get these kind of conspiratorial thinking. So it kind of, there have been elements of smear, but to call it a smear campaign really kind of undersells the depth of the problem, which is we are kind of facing a rising, rising racism, right? Right, right, yeah, I mean I call it a smear because I'm not entirely, you know, up to date on what exactly the claims are, and I know that in the United States we do not have at all a robust conversation about what is anti-Zionism and what is anti-Semitism and how the two can be different and how the two can intersect. So out here I would say, you know, we've got a big smear machine that looks at college campuses and says there's a rise in anti-Semitism by left-wing groups on campus, you know, like, you know, if not now or, you know, Jewish voice for peace, somehow, you know, Palestinian solidarity groups are automatically just called anti-Semitic because they exist on campuses and so yeah, out here it definitely feels like there's more of a concerted effort by the institutional Jewish community and by, you know, the basically entire right wing to smear left-wing people as anti-Semitic because of their views on Israel-Palestine. Whereas, you know, what we do see out here in terms of the rise in anti-Semitism, what I have seen is a huge rise in right-wing anti-Semitism due to the rise of, you know, Donald Trump as president and the way he came to power, you know, kind of weaponizing a lot of these far-right, you know, basically activists, you know, from white-identitarian movements to just kind of like right of, you know, different types of neoconservative movements that we've seen kind of like dog whistles before but now we just see straight bullhorns. This is such a kind of baffling historical moment to me because you're completely right. There's a kind of comparable situation in the UK in that a lot of the sort of most well-respected, if you will, formal institutions of like Jewish civic life like the Board of Deputies and that sort of thing who are very much, you know, behind this discourse that there is this unique problem of anti-Semitism in the Labour Party and in left-wing thought in general have formed this kind of alliance with conservatives which I don't know whether this is just my personal naivety or my personal biases politically speaking but that seems like such an odd moment to me because these people are people, you know, as you say, mobilized by racism and anti-Semitism which is like the power of the idea of Israel in gluing together these groups which really shouldn't be friends, they shouldn't be working together. Yeah, you'd figure that one of the things that people, especially other Jewish people, couldn't look past as the fact that these right-wing groups and right-wing leaders have so many Nazi supporters. Being side by side with Nazis just seems like maybe an indicator that you might be on the wrong side of an issue but that's just me personally, I have a certain distaste for Nazis, something about the haircuts mostly but I mean also just they don't really have style. Yeah, yeah, Nazis, not adequately dapper which is my main beef with them. Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, they tried in the 40s to be dapper with the Hugo Boss and whatnot but ever since, I mean, it's just, they've gotten worse and worse from just the shitty boots to the chinos. The suspenders and some, you know, I guess they've lost the shave heads and now they're doing only the half shave but to me it just is like everything just looks very out of date. Anyways, I do feel like what it does say, you know, the fact that you see these weird alliances of pro-Israel groups and pro-right-wing neo-fascist groups is that Israel is more and more kind of accepting its role as a more and more fascist, imperialist type of state and that to me is something that needs to be looked at and dealt with honestly and not with, you know, kind of a blanket name calling like, you know, I definitely do not like when people will say, oh, Israelis, Netanyahu is a Nazi and whatnot because I do feel like there is kind of, it's a much more sensitive issue than just like, oh, you know, we call everyone Nazis, you know, it's a lot different especially being that the state was literally created in the wake of Nazi atrocities. There are other ways to call people a bad person, right? Yeah, absolutely, fascist works. I feel like a fascist is, you know, a lot of them, especially on the far right in Israel, do not totally shy away from their racism because they feel justified in it and I feel like the word fascist is I think a nice, you know, it's a succinct term for kind of that side of politics, of the political spectrum, especially with Likud Party and other further right parties. Could you talk a bit more about that, just to explain why? Why I would categorize, well, just in terms of the, it's not just in that they are fascists but that they're kind of accepting more and more that they are. More and more I see open discussion about expulsion of Palestinians from, not just from the land which is currently occupied but also, you know, stripping of rights of Arab Israelis. You know, more and more you're seeing just kind of an open discussion about disenfranchising the Arab population within the legal borders of Israel, not to mention the, you know, de facto apartheid you've got in the West Bank. So I think it's the fact that people are openly discussing it as a, almost like, well, this is a legitimate, you know, political platform to be just openly anti-Arab, says to me that, you know, it's become more and more clear that this is a part of the body politic in Israel that has become kind of energized and feels like they have kind of some moral ground to stand on whereas, you know, before there was at least some semblance, some, you know, pretense of, oh, we would like to create two states, you know, the two state solution was this idea that was seen as this great compromise that we're working towards if only, you know, the other side could, you know, be reasonable but more and more it's clearly impossible and I don't even think they openly advocate for it on the right too much anymore in Israel. They are pretty much on the right, you know, just for greater Israel, which is basically just a complete annexation of the occupied territories. To me that spells out, we have accepted we want to create this official apartheid state and that's something to look out for. I'm not a big fan of apartheid. apartheid, you know, controversial apartheid, kind of bad these days. I know. Yeah, it's weird that these are controversial opinions but, you know, apparently they are. Apparently it's weird. I think to point out the kind of political rather than ethnic or religious underpinnings that organize those motivations and organize the sort of political ambitions of the state of Israel, basically treating it as a state like any other state, which is kind of what we're supposed to be doing. Right. But, you know, it makes much more sense of Netanyahu's attitude to really anti-Semitic foreign leaders like Orban and Hungary and like Trump because ultimately his loyalties don't lie with Jewish people per se. Like he's very happy to sell out people in the diaspora but, you know, he will ally with his political allies because his political allies are far right nationalists with territorial ambitions and like fascist underpinnings. Those are the, those are the like axes of solidarity between them, not whether or not they want to protect Jewish people because, you know, they will happily, he will happily accept support from people who will happily accept support from people who, you know, march through Charlottesville chanting, Jews will not replace us, which we will. They are wrong. We will replace them. Yeah, I'm very excited to replace them. It's just, you know, it's going to take a little while since we are less than a percent of the population of the world. But eventually we're getting there, you know, person by person. Yeah, imagine how much like orchestrating world finance we do when we're only like one percent of the population. It's kind of impressive. I know, I know. I know. I mean, I personally own five banks myself. So, you know, I hope you're carrying your weight and owning your share of banks and media. Oh, good, good. But yeah, I feel like, you know, the kind of open embrace of fascism, you know, or at least of other fascist regimes by Netanyahu and, you know, Likudniks is just, to me, is just kind of like the obvious, obviously where we were going this entire time. It seemed like, you know, people talked about it and they were like, oh, I mean, that would be ridiculous. Right? I mean, why would, you know, a state created by atrocities created, you know, by fascists turn into a fascist state, you know, that seems a little bit, you know, a little bit too much to handle. But yeah, no, it's one of those things that's happening and, you know, people speaking out about it have to deal with, I think, a lot of ignorance, I think, on the general population of a lot of, you know, at least of America. I feel like people don't really know what Zionism is and they have heard of anti-Semitism and their only examples of it had been for a long time, you know, basically people calling something that's anti-Zionist, anti-Semitic and going, oh, I guess that's people hating Jews. And then we have these open displays of anti-Semitism by the right and people need to find a way to, you know, kind of go, you know, because no one wants to accept the idea that there's Nazis walking around on the streets. It just sounds so ridiculous. So people go like, well, what are their, what are those Nazis position on Israel, you know? And it's like, if you happen to have a pro-Israel position, then they're like, well, I guess they're not, they can't hate Jews that much. And it's like, well, if you think about that, you know, that's, it's hating Jews either way. Yeah, I mean, precisely because of the particular evangelical character of a lot of the, you know, anti-Zionist, sorry, Zionist anti-Semitism in America and kind of in the UK, but not to the same extent. Like, they just, like, they like Israel because they don't want to have to deal with Jews in their own country. And, right, exactly, it's literally going like, no, no, no, put them all there. We love Israel. Just send them there. And then we can have our own white state. And you know, it's this weird, you know, kind of ethno-state fad that's really, you know, it's really hot right now. Everyone's really into the ethno-state idea. And you know, so it's kind of a perfect time for right-wing Israeli politicians to be like, oh, you guys want an ethno-state? Well, guess what? We're building one right here in the Middle East, you know? It's just... It's what I made earlier. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Oh, did you say ethno-state? And then you pull one out. It's just, it seems like, to me, more and more people are kind of learning about, I guess, the situation in the Middle East with regards to Israel-Palestine, but it still feels like the nuance of the discussion is still not there. And so you have, and you know, I don't know for certain if that's the case in the UK, but you have people slipping up and definitely having their anti-Zionism veer into anti-Semitism. And it's one of those things that needs to be looked at and condemned when it happens and also understood as a learning curve because there is, you know, there is a difference between people who legitimately want to see, you know, the end to the occupation and don't actually hold any hate in their heart towards Jews and people who discuss Zionism and use the word Zionism as kind of like a code word for all the Jews, you know, and it's hard to untangle that. I mean, precisely because it's, there's a lot of, I guess, in terms of the like self-promotion of like the Israeli state that is kind of quite invested in collapsing those categories because... Oh, sure. You know, like, and it's just really frustrating when leftists who want to end the occupation just, I mean, essentially take Netanyahu's word for it that the interests of Jewish people are completely identified with the interests of the state of Israel, which is just like completely not, I mean, like, apart from the fact that most Jews don't even live in Israel, there are like many, many, like, you know, dissenting Jewish people there. Like there are many people in and outside of Israel who are critical of like Israeli policies and you know, there's a lot of, you know, they're trading on a lot of very understandable historical fears like in this promise that like, you know, we will keep you safe from future trustee, future Holocaust, future pogroms. All you need to do is kind of like identify your interests with us and like if we were to, you know, I guess like think about self-determination and what it would mean to combat antisemitism in a more holistic way and a more like diasporic way than just like shove them over there in the ethno-state where they won't bother anyone and they can keep themselves safe. Right, right. You know, like we wouldn't like encounter these problems so much, it's just like a real, frustrating, I guess, failure of imagination on the part of leftists and you know, I have no doubt that there's some genuine hate there as well but like. Oh yeah, sure. Yeah, I mean it's such a weird thing to this idea, you know, that's sold to people that the Jewish people are better off all moving to Israel. You know, this idea that like first, you know, like, you know, the thing about eggs is they're always safe if they're in one basket. You know, people will say always put your eggs in one basket. It's like the most ridiculous concept ever and yet it's sold as like, you know, every time you know, you hear the kind of the standard pitch of why you should move to Israel beyond it being the Holy Land is, you know, this is the one place where Jews are safe and it's like, well, you know, it's clear that number one that that is not true because you know, it is a literal military state. I mean, you've got actual military everywhere and I personally don't feel safe with people with the, you know, M16s walking around everywhere and also yeah, it completely discounts the diaspora who are living safely and I mean, you know, as someone who's lived in the United States my whole life, I feel pretty comfortable as a Jew, even with Charlottesville, you know, I see that and I go, this is definitely scary and I don't, you know, put it past Americans for a second to not be like, you know what we haven't done? We haven't done a mass expulsion of Jews in a while. We should try that. That sounds like a lot of fun. You know, it's something that absolutely could happen but to act as if it's, you know, somehow safer for everyone to move to Israel to me is just seems like, I mean, it just seems like a sales pitch to me, you know, seems like, you know. It's not safer for like Mizrahi Jews or like, you know, North African Jews who are like, experience a lot of violence and a lot of marginalization within the state of Israel as Jewish Israelis. It's like, there are like other levels going on there. Even if it was a state of just Ashkenazi, white, European Jews, it would still not be that I don't feel comfortable at the dinner table with my own family all the time. I don't feel totally safe, you know, like the idea that like, oh, overall, you know, exact same skin color and we're all, you know, the exact same religion, you know, we're in the safest place we can be. And it's just like, you know, this is come on. I mean, it's just it's antithetical to literally my entire life experience. And I think the life experience of most Americans, you know, which is like, you know, diversity is a thing. Diversity, you know, most Americans, you know, we live in we live in cities and diversity has not been at least for me a negative experience. But then again, I've never lived in an all all white town or something like that where where, you know, maybe if I'd grown up that way, I'd feel feel differently. But I just don't it's to me, it's antithetical to to everything that I've been taught and everything that I grew up with. And I grew up with conservative parents, you know, so, you know, if I feel like diversity is a good thing, I mean, shit, everyone should. But maybe I'm wrong. That's what I think. But I think this kind of discussion around like safety in Israel sort of is illuminating of the way in which like the category of Zionism like the idea of Zionism is often confused with, I guess, like the concrete reality of Zionism as instantiated, right? The current Israeli state because there have been many different. There have been many different strains of Zionism. Exactly. I, you know, and like many of them have been like liberal and progressive or whatever you can you can say that, you know, those are like, you know, structurally inadequate or flawed, you can disagree with them. But they weren't, you know, we just can't say that, like, all Zionism's have always been about establishing this like apartheid. It's just not true. It's not helpful. But right, I completely agree. Yeah. And there is this sense, however, in which like they like government like uses this idea of like Zionism is something that was set up to or something that is intended to confer a certain level of like safety on Jewish people and just kind of use that to claim that to make that historically completely inaccurate claim that Israel was set up by Jews in order to keep Jews safe, which I mean, again, is like just an enormously impressive effort on the part of, you know, British people in particular to like not talk about colonialism. We hate talking about colonialism because it's like, you know, that's the thing that's missing from this debate is that when we talk about the founding of, you know, the founding of Israel, you know, it's not Jewish refugees who set it up. It's like, you know, white guy, colonialists and the post war government who, you know, like all kinds of reasons like they wanted military bases, their empire was crumbling. They were going through all these like styles of like semi like post-colonial management. Like that's why it was set up not by it was burning man for some of them. Some of them were just thought it was it was basically burning man. They were like, you know, I'm going to go there and have a killer time going to set up, you know, grow some fucking oranges, dude. They'll be hella right. It'll be good. Well, yeah, we'll live, you know, and, you know, it's not to say that, you know, many of them didn't want to live in peace with their with their Arab neighbors. It's just but, you know, the idea that it was like, this is where we must go in order to be safe, as if it was kind of like foretold the, you know, the Holocaust happening eventually, you know, that's kind of the story that's been sold. And it's like, well, they were right this whole time. And, you know, there's, you know, the entire aspect of the fact that it was, in essence, a colonial project is completely wiped from, you know, the discussion of the creation of the state. And so when you don't have that, you know, picking on Israel as, you know, picking on Israel will look like, oh, you're picking on a, you know, someone's safe space, you know, that's, it looks like, well, this is where all the refugees had to, they had to go somewhere. And it's like, yes, this is true, but this is not the impetus for the creation of the state. You're conflating the two things, and it's not the same. But yeah, I mean, these are discussions that, you know, are hard to have, I think, with most people, because you are kind of, you know, it's, it's, it's even for people who know about it, it's, it's a hard to see. No one really wants to die on that hill of like, of, of defending the Palestinian people. No one wants to die on that hill. It seems like too, too much of a risk. It's like why, especially in America, I think where, you know, people are, a lot of people are so invested, especially on the, on the left in, you know, so many of our own problems, you know, so to speak, and in this country, you know, people feel like it's just another thing happening in another country. And I don't want to delay, delegitimize my own movement by, you know, talking about Palestinians marching with them, you know, marching with their banners, and, and it's, you know, it's a, it's a bummer, because I mean, a bummer is, it's a real bummer. I'm from California, to me, a bummer is that's like, that's, that's real high up there in terms of tragedy. It is, you know, because these are real life atrocities, you know, we're seeing the real, I mean, I don't want to say the beginnings, because it's been happening for a while, but we are seeing the kind of coming to fruition of a apartheid state happening. And, and, you know, it's de facto, like I've said before, it's de facto apartheid now, but, you know, if greater Israel were to happen, it would be an apartheid state. Unless, of course, they were like, you know, they did a turn, all of a sudden, there's M night Shyamalan twist, where they do a one state solution, and everyone gets voting rights. Then I'd be like, that's amazing. And no expulsions. Okay. But that, you know, prove me wrong. Maybe what's that? Yeah, right. Exactly. I mean, that, that would be interesting. But, you know, that's, it's, that's not what the plan is. And yeah, it's, it's definitely hard to, to get people interested in it and to, you know, to put their bodies and their minds on the line for, you know, for this, and, you know, I feel like it sounds kind of almost crank to sort of repettle the lines we were talking about, not we, I was like, I was like, eight, but like in like 2002 or 2003, like around the time that the Iraq war was happening, talking about like, how these kinds of these policies in the Middle East aren't, you know, this kind of like, distant moral battleground that like, Western leftists use to like, you know, signify their like moral virtue, they're actually bound up with Western imperialist foreign and domestic policy in terms of you securing military bases, securing access to certain resources, like water and oil in the area, it kind of is about, you know, gas and oil. And I feel like that, you know, again, when we return to like the material and political realities, the, the kind of the cracks in this sort of media war to like collapse Zionism and like protection of Jewish interests and anti Zionism and anti Semitism just begin to show because when you think like, actually, this isn't, you know, it's not about protecting like a small minority of the global population, it's about protecting a global majority of the world's resources. Right, right, right. Yeah, I mean, you know, if, you know, if we if you can even get that far in the discussion with people about what what the purpose of America's unconditional support of Israel is, you know, if you can get that far, then, then, then great, but most people, you know, they, they, they can't push themselves that far. It just it's just the conversation dies on the vine because it's, you know, either because you've got preconceived notions, because, you know, you've got a lot of conspiratorial people on the right and on the left to where, you know, there's definitely anti Semitism rears in and you've got, you know, so it's, it's so it's hard to talk about because, you know, I'm always afraid when I'm talking to someone who I, you know, don't know fully. And, you know, and all of a sudden, they start repeating anti Semitic tropes about Israel's actual actual power. And they'll, they'll, they'll, you know, talk about how Israel calls all the shots. And you're just like, okay, okay, calm down. Let's, let's erase some of your pre programming here. And, you know, there's, there's kind of, yeah, so it's, it's, and it's hard to get that bark is the person you're talking to might think like, Oh, are you about to say some weird anti Semitic conspiracy theories? You know, so everyone kind of wants to avoid the subject is it, you know, you're never sure what somebody's going to say. And, you know, meanwhile, you know, IDF soldiers are shooting Palestinian unarmed Palestinian civilians. Yeah, it feels sort of odd that like those kind of really brutal political realities end up being wrangled out by like really awkward dinner conversations with like your aunt, who has this, you know, hasn't really thought through harass you to foreign policy or whatever, but is, you know, has this nostalgic idea of Israel because she like had a nice summer there when she was 19, something like that. Right, exactly. Yeah. And like, you know, like you say, it's people's definitions of Zionism seem to to range, you know, like people talk about, you know, the different strains of Zionism that that cropped up and to them, you know, if you if you are to describe Zionism as this racist imperialist project, they're like, What are you talking about? You know, this all Zionism is is a safe home for the Jewish people. And, you know, and so it's like, these conversations don't happen because people get stuck on definitions. And they get, you know, it's like the semantics of the conversation get entangled immediately, even the word Zionism, you can't people can't get past that word because, you know, of the, you know, ranging definitions of it and the assumptions. And it's yeah, it's it's it's not good, because we we've got to be able to discuss the realities on the ground of what Zionism is, versus the kind of like nebulous, you know, theoretical what Zionism, you know, could have been or, you know, what not, or the, you know, what the wishful thinking. So yeah, it's yeah, it's hard. Yeah, the reference to the plurality of historical ideas of Zionism's plural, as a kind of get out close to avoid talking about what Zionism looks like in the contemporary state of Israel is this classic retreat to language that, you know, a lot of people do because they don't want to talk about the thing that makes them uncomfortable. It's the whole like, you can't be Islamophobic. Islamophobia isn't racism. Islam is a race. Right. Yeah. And on the on the other side, it's the it's the people who are like, I can't be anti Semitic, because I myself am I have Semitic origin. And therefore, and it's like, you know, it's these semantic arguments where you're completely useless. They're only used to muddy the point that's happening, you know, it's it's used to stifle conversation so that you can't actually, you know, confront the actual issue, you know, set before you. I mean, this happens to me all the time. I am a member of several different Facebook groups that are Jew book groups, giant, you know, Facebook groups filled with just Jews. And and the arguments that that we have, the mostly arguments that that I have are people like when I posted I did a video for AJ plus about anti Zionism and anti Semitism. It was a video about how we are now living at a point where you can love Israel and hate Jews at the exact same time. And, you know, the way people were choosing to not discuss that issue was go, Oh, well, you work for Al Jazeera. Al Jazeera is, you know, funded from the Qatari government. You're basically a Qatari shill, you might as well be Hamas. And it's like, you know, people do a friend. I know it's it's a lot of steps. But, you know, hey, you can't prove that I'm not Hamas. But, you know, I that's, that's what they say. And, and, you know, there's a lot of creative ways that people have learned in order to kind of not discuss an issue. And I feel like with this issue in particular, there's a million ways not to talk about it. And, and there's a million reasons not to talk about it because people feel uncomfortable with it, which is not good. And also that kind of the way of not talking about it properly also, I guess is one of the functions of this like tangle, discursive, and it strikes me that those like tactical diversions in order to not talk about the thing is precisely one of, I guess, the functions, the ways in which the appearance of combating antisemitism is used. And that's to essentially embolden Islamophobia, because there is this kind of, you know, this racist stereotype that most Muslims are anti-Semitic, simply by virtue of being Muslim. So like, you know, being Jewish becomes this kind of like protected category within whiteness and is like defending that category becomes a pretext for, you know, loads of like really like anti-black, anti-Muslim and Islamophobic racisms. Right, yeah. The Jews are used by white people in order to justify their own hatred of people of color all the time. Any issue, any issue, you know, you can be like, well, you know, the problem with the blacks is they hate the Jews says the guy who probably hates Jews, you know, like, it's it's, it's just And that's my thing. Yeah, exactly. If anyone's hating Jews around here, it's me. Yeah, it's, it's, to me, an obvious ploy. Like, it's, it's obviously a strategy employed by, you know, right wingers in order to, to divert from their own, you know, coming to terms with their blatant racism. But, you know, it's, I feel like there's something about being within the tent of whiteness in the institutional Jewish community that's seen as the safest place you can be. It's and so they're going like, even if that means aligning ourselves with people who just two decades ago, openly hated our guts, they're now accepting us and trying to protect us. And hey, you know what? If that means not speaking up about blatant racism in our own community and in the white community in general, then fine, as long as we stay white, we're fine. And I think we've learned that like, that whiteness is conditional. And, and so it's, it's, you know, at least with the, the rise of Trump and everything like that, you've got people for the first time ever, I've got people saying that I am not white, which, you know, just, you know, when I first heard that I was, I got real mad, I got real white about it too. Like my monocle fell off and everything. Oh, damn you. You know, and, you know, I, you know, I feel like I am white, you know, I bleed mayonnaise and I shit one star Yelp reviews, but you know, apparently, apparently, I'm don't count anymore. And it's, it's interesting, because you're seeing a lot of different reactions to that, you know, what does it mean that, you know, these white nationalists are now holding whiteness so precious that we don't count anymore as white people. What do what do we do? And, you know, I think the a lot of the institutional Jewish community is going to have to make some decisions about about where they put their allegiance. And if in America, if you continue to ally yourself with Israel, as you know, the voice of the Jewish people in the homeland is the Jewish people, you're going to end up with a lot of strange bedfellows now. And if you can accept that, then, you know, Mazel tov, but I personally cannot accept that. And I don't think anyone should accept that because who the hell wants to sleep next to a Nazi? That's the kind of the character of the sort of fear that I'm seeing amongst the like British Jewry, if you say, because it's that fear of like losing one's place in, like, in the whole of whiteness, which means that because, I mean, that tells us a lot about the wages of whiteness, both as like a material reality, because, you know, like the structural institutional is anophobia and anti black racism and that kind of thing. It just is is institutional and material in the way that anti semitism isn't any more right in the UK, now. And it tells us a lot about the power of whiteness in including you in the sort of the institutions of social life and all these like, you know, amazing benefits that comes from being white, being white is great. You don't get harassed by the police. Generally, it's brilliant. Right. Right. Like of course, people don't want to lose that, right? Because we're told that the only way to access those kinds of like, what should be like, basic criteria of like, living in any society, the right to housing, right? Exactly. Be like shot on the street. The only way to access that is to be white. Right. And you can kind of understand when people are like, holy shit, like, we've been, you know, we've been, you know, holy shit, like we've been, we're white now. This is brilliant. Everybody stay calm, do whatever you can in order to remain white. And that's kind of feels like what's happening, particularly when, you know, there are a lot of Jewish people who, you know, rightly speak up against like, you know, very reactionary anti migrant policies we have and massive xenophobia. But you know, a lot of people will, you know, stay silent on that because they don't see themselves as allied because to see themselves as allied would be to see themselves as, as not white. And that's something that's something no one wants to be. Right. Yeah. I mean, you get worried that at some point, you know, if you're if you're too loud, you're somehow going to fall into this, you know, Jewish category, the stereotype of, you know, loudmouth, you know, left wing socialist Jew, and all of a sudden you're, you know, setting your yeah, by the way, you're, you know, it's as if it's some sort of, you know, backsliding in status for the Jewish people. And, you know, often, as I think it is with with anyone who is of a particular, you know, category of people outside the norm, you are the representative of all those people. And so, you know, your actions aren't just looked at as your own individual beliefs. But, you know, as as all all Jews, this is bad for all the Jews, if you're, you know, speaking up about this stuff, especially when, you know, the the people you're defending are, you know, Muslims who hate us. And, you know, it's all this like, this racism comes out when you, you know, it's within our own community, when when these issues are brought up. And, you know, and, you know, I'll admit that I've definitely prefer, I definitely prefer to have those conversations in Jewish spaces rather than the general public, because I feel like, you know, the general public likes to, you know, discuss the racism of other people, you know, not their own, their own, you know, groups. So you have white people talking about, you know, racism within the Jewish community, and not discussing their own. And I just it's one of those places where I feel safer talking about it as like an, an inter community issue. But, but yeah, I mean, we, we definitely benefit from being white, we have white privilege, we, we reach all the material markers of being white, we get just by the way we look and kind of the acceptance of Jews, you know, the recent acceptance of Jews in Western society. And it's, it's not something that people feel like they want to give up. And it's not something that, you know, it's just, it's, it's a very powerful thing, white supremacy, very powerful. And it's, it's going to take a lot of work in order to, I think, get our own community woke on white supremacy. Especially first, you're gonna have to teach them what the word woke means. And, you know, then you teach them the rest. But, but yeah, it's, it's definitely the material gains from whiteness. And, you know, is just, it's like incalculable. It's just, you, we get to live as, you know, normal, quote unquote, you know, if you are a white Ashkenazi Jew, you know, or white passing Jew of any, of any kind. And yeah, it's, it's hard, that kind of like the wages of whiteness are precisely why I'm so I'm so confused when people are like, there's this tiny global minority who are controlling an enormous amount of the wealth and power and they have these elites who form these institutions in order to keep power and wealth amongst themselves. I'm like, yeah, it's cool white people. Yeah, it's, it's always the most insane thing that I like to picture the, the, the people in the room, you know, in the like smoky smoky room in the, in the 30s, 40s, you know, a bunch of white men smoking cigars, you know, captains of industry masters of the universe, just going like, man, the Jews control everything. You were literally controlling everything. You're like, you will, you will not allow Jews in your club. It's, it's, it's, it's crazy. It's craziness. But you know, I mean, I think all racism is, is, is insanity, basically. But it's also, you know, sometimes your society breeds you to be insane. That's a fun little thing that happens. But yeah, yeah, I mean, whiteness in general, whiteness is, is such a, it's another hard concept, I think, to, to kind of talk about with people, because you do have people who are, you know, white people who are ignorant of their own privilege, have the hardest time discussing and facing the concept of whiteness, because they having lived with it, don't realize the benefits that they, they get just from being white. And so, you know, all they see it as is an attack on them, personally, and a racist attack. That's, that's how they look at it. You know, you are an anti white racist. And, you know, I, to me, it's a, obviously a laughable concept in that I literally laugh about it once a day. But it is, it's an understandable thing if you are not taught, you know, if you don't have kind of like a robust discussion or an education on race in America, you're not going to learn about any of the benefits. And so all you hear is people being mean to you on the internet. And it's, it's crazy how, how much that, that affects people. And, you know, I do, I do find myself, you know, wanting to educate people in comment sections where I'm like, you know, I want to like just, just teach them, you know, about whiteness. But I have to stop myself because I don't have the time, so much time in the day to do it. But, you know, people who are very sensitive to the, this idea that there's such thing as white privilege, you know, and, and, you know, I feel like it's such a simple concept to me, but to some people, it's just they, they won't, they won't hear of it, you know, and if you can't even have a discussion about it, then you can't get anywhere with it. And, and then you just have, you know, the cycle continues. Yeah, I mean, you have discussions like you were having at the moment in the UK where, you know, like people are talking about racism a lot without any kind of material understanding of what it means to be white, which is a kind of confusing, a confusing presumption because what you're talking about is something that is, you know, excluded from this like normative category of power, without wanting to face up to or talk about that category in and of itself. And it just means that you ever get like really, really bad faith, frustrating discussions like the ones that have dominated the, the last six months. Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, it's every argument is now starts off in bad faith. No one is having any discussions from different sides of the political spectrum, in which the two opposing ends don't believe that they want to disenfranchise each other, you know, it's, you know, or in some way are lying to each other or somewhere are part of some sort of cabal of people who are trying to secretly replace them. So it's, it's a, it's a bad place to start any discussion. And, you know, personally, I think that like, we have a lot of potential allies and kind of in, in, you know, I hate to say this as a socialist, but as I feel like liberals can get woke on this shit. I don't feel like, you know, there's a lot of I, I love to make fun of liberals. It's one of my favorite. It's the best. It's one of my favorite things to do. But they are, I think they're infinitely closer to having kind of a understanding of whiteness and understanding of race discourse than people on the right, who I feel like, you know, at this point, it's like, once you start allying with Nazis and once you, you know, start, you know, waving their banners around, I just go like, I don't think I'm going to get through to most of these people. But, you know, I do feel like we, you know, it's just organizing and is the only way to do it. Organizing and educating and getting people to understand why we make fun of liberals so much, you know. But, and I do think that one of the things that we have to offer as socialists that, that liberals do not have to offer, that they can get woke on is the capitalism's role in white supremacy and how the two are linked and, you know, the kind of erasure of the, you know, any critique of capitalism from any of these conversations is, I think, what gets us back into kind of like these, you know, bad faith conversations where, where no one believes that anyone has anyone's best interest in mind or is not trying to mislead them in some way, you know. Having a robust critique of capitalism when discussing race and anti-Semitism and Israel Palestine, I think is very important for most people to understand because, you know, everyone understands, you know, money and everyone understands capitalism and how it works, or at least some aspect of it. We live through it, like we kind of experience, like we have like a physical experience of it in the way that not everyone has a physical experience of like racism or what it is to live in Gaza. Right, exactly. But we do understand that we all have bosses and our bosses seem to care more about making money than they do the welfare of their employees for most people. So, you know, having these discussions and just kind of extrapolating that concept and thinking of it even bigger, you know, now consider countries and geopolitics and how capitalism is kind of, you know, critiquing capitalism might help you understand it further. But, you know, my dad would hate me having this conversation. He is a libertarian. I promise I won't tell him. OK, thank you. Your secret is safe with me. OK, good, good, good. Matt Leib, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks so much for having me.